--- Log opened Sun Mar 17 00:00:29 2024
00:08 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8962af0e fenn: muddying the list of targets for wisdom tooth prevention. sigh >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
00:11 < fenn> i felt really stupid trying to read those papers for some reason
00:12 < fenn> they're really focused on which mutations cause which disease states, so it's nearly impossible to find which mutations causes the supernormal health state
00:18 < fenn> "third molar agenesis in the absence of hypodontia" is a mouthful~
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02:50 < adlai> L29Ah: judges are the composers of law's letters; serialisation is performed by bureaucracy [lawyers, stenographers, etc], and any supposed subversion would actually be performed by executive branches, almost universally outside the courthouse.
02:52 < adlai> fenn: reading modern biology in general makes me feel stupid to be born human; could you people not learn from the clusterfuck that is abjads like the hebrew alphabet, and sparsify nomenclature? nah, we gotta optimize for mutation loci per uploaded fluid ounce of preprint.
02:53 < adlai> nsh: "as many kinds of intelligence as there are things that can be done" << false
02:53 < adlai> rather, unprovable if true
02:54 < fenn> missing the forest for the trees
02:54 < adlai> always
02:54 < adlai> however, not being principle investigator of some academic bioterrorist cell, what else can I do than quibble on IRC?
02:55 < adlai> "kinds of intelligence" is much closer to "nonisomorphic complexity classes", while "things that can be done [better or worse]" literally is the problems described by those classes.
02:56 < adlai> so it's not obvious, to me, that there is a bijection.
02:58  * adlai suspects that sufficiently abstract intelligence can 'collapse' lots of problems, similarly to how algorithm optimizers ignore whether they're routing train tracks or dopant masks on wafers, and then there are far fewer kinds of intelligence than problems which seem distinct.
03:00 < adlai> .ud punt
03:00 < saxo> To have a [bet].
03:01 < adlai> .ud green
03:01 < saxo> can be used when describing when someone has wronged [another] person...originating in [Miami], [FL]
03:02 < adlai> fenn: thank you for identifying hprmbridge with your account!
03:07 < fenn> it has been that way for months, fwiw
03:07 < adlai> oh my confusion was the target.
03:08 < adlai> arguably, confusion could be reduced by including the target in the IRC user field, rather than it being identical to the nick.
03:09 < adlai> so `/whois hprmbridge` would return something like ...bot/fennbots: H+ Discord Bridge
03:09  * adlai thinks the user field supports whitespace
03:11 < fenn> well i would have to hack in some functionality to set the user field, and i don't care
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03:27 < fenn> there
04:08 < adlai> niiice
04:22 < hprmbridge> Eli> So are conscious robots going to be stunting on each other on Insta or not?
04:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> also the recent longevity results needs to be added to that page
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04:59 < hprmbridge> Eli> I was reading about a transgenic cow that is able to produce human insulin incredibly cheaply. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240313135347.htm
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05:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> It got me wondering about the current state of cloning? Is there any confirmed dysgenic issues arising from nuclear transfer? I know Dollie was allegedly claimed to have issues but that claim has seemingly been called into question. The reason I'm curious is that this could potentially be a way to introduce beneficial traits into humans without much pushback from society. Pro life and Pro choice
05:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> generally is a question of some sort of weird trolley problem. But, when it comes to improving humans via cloning, this is a real moral grey area. I'm not sure that the general public really understands that we can already do this in eukaryotes. And technology is advancing rapidly enough to where this is going to be a real question in the future and most likely will be done in outher countries, if
05:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> not in the US.
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05:17 < hprmbridge> setecastronomy1891> Is anyone taking rapamycin or metformin, where are you sourcing it, and what dosage?
05:53 < hprmbridge> Eli> Metformin is not good unless you have metabolic disorder. Rapa might be useful but it needs to be proven in trials so it doesn’t end up like metformin did.
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06:57  * L29Ah inserts metformin
06:57 < L29Ah> Eli: why do you think so?
06:58 < L29Ah> setecastronomy1891: i take 500mg of metformin every 12h, i buy it at the closest pharmacy
08:01 < hprmbridge> Eli> Here's a good rundown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdkuriBEzo
08:05 < hprmbridge> Eli> Dr. Peter Attia observed similar issues with biomarkers during exercise. Blunts muscle growth which is a major issue due to sarcopenia and the fact that muscles are your biggest glucose sink. Currently, I believe the leader of the ITP is also biased against it. The only question that remains is if they can find some sort of dose-response where Metformin could be used in some very specific
08:05 < hprmbridge> Eli> situation where it benefits non-diabetic people. This is only theoretical. I don't think it's a good idea to take metformin until we have actual data that it might help in some situation.
08:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> Rapa and AKG could be cool, but we need to figure out proper dose-response and see if there are any side effects. It would be nice if a billionaire funded a bunch of ITP studies on this stuff. Rapa is probably the most interesting one currently. But there are some other ones that aren't as well studied. And, you can even combine some substances to get further lifespan extension. Again, the ITP is
08:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> limited by funding issues.
08:14 < hprmbridge> Eli> If you're worried about your hba1c, try replacing sugar with lillys sugar substitue chocolate. I eat it all the time to kick my sugar cravings. It's like suboxone for heroin addicts. And if you don't think sugar is as addictive as drugs, try doing keto and see what happens.
08:39 < L29Ah> > Blunts muscle growth
08:39 < L29Ah> it does, yet i don't observe any wasting during five years of metformin, also gained a little with a basic calisthetics routine
08:40 < L29Ah> i don't care much about growing my glucose sinks since i'm not a compulsive eater
08:41 < L29Ah> sugar is addictive indeed tho
08:42 < L29Ah> rapamycin is more worrying to me, as i want my immune system intact to beat emerging cancers
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09:35 < hprmbridge> Eli> I think the theory is that if rapa is pulsed you can potentially get the benefits without the sides. That’s why the dose response for rapa is really important to dial in
09:38 < hprmbridge> Eli> The other issue with Sarcopenia is that falling is a major killer. Maintaining as large of a reserve of muscle as possible while aging is insurance against falls in the same way having a large reserve of neurons from studying is an insurance against Alzheimer’s.
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10:34 < hprmbridge> daddycitrus> Hello!
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15:23 < fenn> @Eli yes cloning by simple nuclear transfer has some epigenetic problems, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genomic_imprinting - we can probably brute force this with Cas9/RNA guided methylase https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.2115248119
15:27 < fenn> "Efficient targeted DNA methylation with chimeric dCas9-Dnmt3a-
15:27 < fenn> Dnmt3L methyltransferase"
15:29 < fenn> biology being needlessly hairy, there are probably more than 7 imprinting control regions
15:29 < L29Ah> not sure if efficient or efficient
15:30 < fenn> it saves half a character width in the bibliography, because apparently that sort of thing still matters to someone
15:39 < hprmbridge> kanzure> instead of editing you can just use embryonic stem cells
15:39 < hprmbridge> kanzure> for cloning.
15:51 < fenn> why would you choose one set of embryonic stem cells over another? i thought the whole idea was to clone proven-exceptional people
15:52 < fenn> or are we supposed to clone someone from frozen embryonic stem cells, wait 30 years, then see if we should clone more from the same original stock?
15:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> harvest stem cells before birth. store for whatever reasons.
15:53 < fenn> well, does anyone do that already?
15:53 < fenn> if not we're going to be waiting for a long time
15:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> guess we could offer that as part of IVF
15:54 < fenn> also it seems like a bad plan because you're selecting from a tiny population
15:54 < fenn> does harvesting embryonic stem cells carry a risk?
15:54 < fenn> (i assume so)
15:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> also this is how you artificially create identical twins
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15:55 < fenn> it also doubles the workload on the IVF technician
15:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/23/2/156/2527545
15:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://discord.com/channels/1064664281993461820/1064664282450628710/1210723494443356180
15:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "The first human embryo splitting procedure was reported by a team of researchers including Robert Stillman and Jerry Hall from George Washington University in Washington, DC, in October 1993, at a joint meeting of the American Fertility Society and the Canadian Fertility and Andrology Society (Hall et al., 1993). However, it was later found that the study did not possess the valid Institutional
15:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Review Board approval, and the authors were reprimanded and instructed to destroy their data (Fackelmann, 1994; Macklin, 1995)."
15:57 < fenn> @Eli could you explain how cloning could be "a way to introduce beneficial traits into humans"? i'm not really seeing it
15:58 < fenn> what is this discord link?
15:58 < fenn> is it going to sign me up to something
15:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I pasted the relevant excerpt from the discord log link
16:00 < fenn> huh. "A number of countries have formulated bans either through laws, decrees or official statements. However, in general, these laws specifically define cloning as an embryo that is generated via nuclear transfer (NT) and do not mention embryo splitting. Only the UK includes under cloning both embryo splitting and NT in the same legislation."
16:00 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://gnusha.org/logs/2024-02-23.log
16:07 < fenn> why do people hate clones so much?
16:07 < fenn> "the Ethics Committee of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine does not have a major ethical objection to transferring two or more artificially created embryos with the same genome with the aim of producing a single pregnancy" implies that having the goal of more than one pregnancy would be bad
16:09 < fenn> do we need some sort of brotherhood of monozygotic twins society to protect the rights of genetically identical people
16:09 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ethical objection or do they mean moral
16:09 < fenn> like, these people already exist and hav existed for thousands of years
16:09 < fenn> maybe longer
16:09 < hprmbridge> kanzure> this is twin erasure
16:10 < fenn> ok so there are medical risks to multiple pregnancy at the same time, fine. but i really doubt that's what the main objection is
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 18 00:00:30 2024