Conversation with #hplusroadmap at Fri 18 Apr 2008 05:20:40 PM CDT on kanzure@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(2008-04-18 17:20:40) The topic for #hplusroadmap is: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
(2008-04-18 17:22:30) kanzure: Hey fenn.
(2008-04-18 17:22:39) kanzure: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-04-18
(2008-04-18 17:22:49) kanzure: here's the summary:
(2008-04-18 17:23:20) kanzure: the solution to my worries about the units stuff v. all-out packages is that the code to make something is simply code to query/ping an API for dealing with whatever equipment the user has in his fab-lab
(2008-04-18 17:23:30) kanzure: so all of that code doesn't have to be evaluated until the end
(2008-04-18 17:23:51) kanzure: I'm thinking of a completely automated fab lab (except with human interaction when necessary, to some requisite degree of precision)
(2008-04-18 17:28:08) fenn: hi. i'm redoin the diagram because i was wrong
(2008-04-18 17:30:09) fenn: dead dependency tree is preferable because it means a comparison is very simple. the alternative means calling possibly large amounts of code for every comparison
(2008-04-18 17:30:49) fenn: but, there are varying degrees of dead-ness vs alive-ness
(2008-04-18 17:31:13) fenn: fully dead is like 'blackboxing', you specify exactly the package you intend to be used
(2008-04-18 17:31:54) fenn: partially dead is to cite a specification, such as a standardized connector, which makes use of units and named geometry to ensure that things will fit together
(2008-04-18 17:32:35) fenn: fully alive does simulations on the geometry of the parts involved, collision detection, thermal analysis, etc
(2008-04-18 17:32:58) fenn: obviously we cant do full simulations on (n!) connections in the db
(2008-04-18 17:33:32) fenn: (or can we?)
(2008-04-18 17:35:40) fenn: anyway, i think 'partially dead' is what we're going for
(2008-04-18 17:51:08) kanzure: Paul knows Freeman Dyson personally.
(2008-04-18 17:51:46) kanzure: full simulations / n! is obviously infeasible at this point, yes
(2008-04-18 17:51:56) kanzure: we need a 'printing server' for fabrication
(2008-04-18 17:52:09) kanzure: I think we are wrong about the local user skdb cache of metadata files etc
(2008-04-18 17:52:14) kanzure: technically it's not just a file cache
(2008-04-18 17:52:17) kanzure: it should be a physical tool cache too
(2008-04-18 17:52:28) kanzure: plus the configuration information specifying on what ports the instruments are connected to the server
(2008-04-18 17:53:04) kanzure: plus a common API so that drivers can be written for the API, and then all packages in skdb can query that interface to make the tools do something (no matter what weird device-driver implementation the physical instruments happen to involve, see)
(2008-04-18 17:53:33) kanzure: wtf, Dyson doesn't have a PhD.
(2008-04-18 17:59:50) fenn: ugh.. thinking is too hard
(2008-04-18 18:00:09) fenn: there's got to be a better way
(2008-04-18 18:00:49) kanzure: haha
(2008-04-18 18:00:53) kanzure: it's been making good sense to me so far
(2008-04-18 18:01:00) kanzure: I mean, I had a bit of a blip last night and this morning
(2008-04-18 18:01:12) kanzure: but I was explaining it to a kid at school (rubber ducky method), and had a few generated insights while talking
(2008-04-18 18:02:47) fenn: this is halfway done: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-software2.png
(2008-04-18 18:03:09) fenn: yep, explaining things will do that
(2008-04-18 18:03:46) kanzure: a few things that I kept floating back to: (1) grounding problem, (2) analogies to the compiler bootstrapping problem, (3) linux printing server ;)
(2008-04-18 18:04:06) kanzure: is the top left pictogram supposedly a servo?
(2008-04-18 18:04:16) fenn: its an electrical plug
(2008-04-18 18:04:19) fenn: like you plug into a wall
(2008-04-18 18:05:02) kanzure: please excuse me, my eyes.
(2008-04-18 18:05:12) kanzure: on the right I see the outlet, at least
(2008-04-18 18:05:16) fenn: i'll make it bigger
(2008-04-18 18:06:13) kanzure: nah, was just wondering
(2008-04-18 18:07:09) fenn: well too bad
(2008-04-18 18:10:09) fenn: so, are the class instances the nodes of the graph?
(2008-04-18 18:17:57) kanzure: hrm
(2008-04-18 18:18:00) kanzure: there are many graphs to consider
(2008-04-18 18:18:05) kanzure: oh
(2008-04-18 18:18:11) kanzure: so we can do instances which make up a project in skdb?
(2008-04-18 18:19:51) kanzure: but that would still be a package in skdb, IMO
(2008-04-18 18:20:01) kanzure: even if it is a package that doesn't offer new python plugins (new classes)
(2008-04-18 18:26:57) fenn: yes, a project would be a collection of instances of its parts
(2008-04-18 18:29:08) fenn: like, a vacuum cleaner wouldn't redefine the NEMA-5-15P connector, it would just include nema-5-15p.skdb, instantiate it, and connect the relevant signals/wires
(2008-04-18 18:31:26) fenn: or... is nema-5-15p.skdb simply data that gets parsed and stuffed into a generic electrical connector object?
(2008-04-18 18:31:36) fenn: 3-prong connector
(2008-04-18 18:40:16) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-18 18:40:22) kanzure: it would be an instance of a generic part, yes
(2008-04-18 18:40:33) kanzure: an obviously much more specific instance than could otherwise be provided
(2008-04-18 18:41:09) kanzure: however, it is *not necessarily* stuffed into generic electrical connectors.skdb .... that skdb file in particular might go point to nema-5-15p.skdb (which could be downloaded at the same time for all we care)
(2008-04-18 18:41:27) kanzure: I think that nema-5-15p.skdb must exist if we are to allow python plugins (for instances) to have their own classes too, yes?
(2008-04-18 18:41:30) kanzure: or, hm..
(2008-04-18 18:45:34) kanzure: sure, why not, there's no general requirements for what gets to be a package and not
(2008-04-18 18:45:54) kanzure: as long as they can ultimately be parsed and considered pertainent to the overall goals of skdb, yes?
(2008-04-18 18:50:28) fenn: what are the goals of skdb?
(2008-04-18 18:50:55) fenn: comp got hijacked by munchkins who promptly locked it up solid with tuxracer
(2008-04-18 18:53:24) kanzure: I thought the goals are to just dump as many projects as possible into the mix, then fix up some of the connections and then do searches for self-replicating machines
(2008-04-18 18:59:36) kanzure: re: fully alive simulations; this is where it becomes more optimal to experiment and build it first, then report on the results or whatever (ideally, only report on the positives, but showing an error log would be excellent)
(2008-04-18 19:01:43) kanzure: fenn: please kick me in the ass
(2008-04-18 19:01:49) kanzure: what do we have left to do?
(2008-04-18 19:02:30) fenn: empirical testing can be represented as a sort of simulation (it doesnt necessarily apply to all instances of the project everywhere)
(2008-04-18 19:03:59) fenn: or is that totally backwards and inside out thinking?
(2008-04-18 19:04:19) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-18 19:04:22) kanzure: yeah, who cares how the simulation is done
(2008-04-18 19:04:28) kanzure: it could be physical or virtual, either way.
(2008-04-18 19:04:35) kanzure: it could be done if you shuffle neurotransmitters around for all I care
(2008-04-18 19:04:39) kanzure: as long as you do it right
(2008-04-18 19:04:51) kanzure: even physical experiments can be faultily setten-up (woah, wording issues here)
(2008-04-18 19:05:10) kanzure: *even physical experimental implementations can be faulty setups
(2008-04-18 19:06:11) fenn: now that i think about it, a standard electrical plug is an interference fit
(2008-04-18 19:06:17) kanzure: hm?
(2008-04-18 19:06:27) fenn: you have to know the spring constants and do FEA and all sort of nastiness to get the insertion force
(2008-04-18 19:06:47) fenn: not just geometry
(2008-04-18 19:06:53) kanzure: also, a short rant on the package manager on the user end -- it will have to be able to manage the fab-lab; this means precise positioning of input materials, output materials, the machinery, cords and wires (wireless would be ridiculously useful)
(2008-04-18 19:06:58) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-18 19:07:06) kanzure: insertion force for a plug?
(2008-04-18 19:07:11) kanzure: true that
(2008-04-18 19:07:12) fenn: wireless isnt going to happen
(2008-04-18 19:07:17) kanzure: yeah :(
(2008-04-18 19:07:21) kanzure: so it has to have a managed cord environment
(2008-04-18 19:07:28) kanzure: very meticulous configurations
(2008-04-18 19:07:36) kanzure: (but that's okay)
(2008-04-18 19:07:54) fenn: not a big deal once you figure out the algorithm
(2008-04-18 19:08:30) kanzure: worst case scenario: you make it a genetic algorithm so that it can find the best way to position all of the equipment in whatever dimensionality-room you have available
(2008-04-18 19:08:37) kanzure: and then wire management can be computer-automated too
(2008-04-18 19:08:39) fenn: i'm more concerned about the things that are not black-boxy, like electrical interference, temperature, vibration (and modal analysis)
(2008-04-18 19:08:49) kanzure: how so?
(2008-04-18 19:09:26) fenn: if package A works in one situation, it might not work in another situation because we failed to simulate everything happening at once (which is impossible without recreating the universe)
(2008-04-18 19:10:19) kanzure: I thought you said autospec would take care of this
(2008-04-18 19:10:25) kanzure: in partial-alive/dead simulation stuff.
(2008-04-18 19:10:43) fenn: well, it depends on the specs being well written
(2008-04-18 19:10:44) kanzure: and why can't we come up with algorithms for managing that stuff anyway?
(2008-04-18 19:18:08) kanzure: ?
(2008-04-18 19:23:09) kanzure: fenn: that might be more from the social knowledge side
(2008-04-18 19:23:13) kanzure: remember, automated design is not our goal
(2008-04-18 19:23:28) kanzure: just widespread diffusion and easy modifications + experimentation, not a guarantee that anything will work
(2008-04-18 19:23:43) kanzure: (with linux 'it just happens to work', really - there's no monarch sitting at the top making sure all lines conform)
(2008-04-18 19:27:25) fenn: at the individual interface level everything is very standardized and specified. that's why all the lib.so.0 stuff
(2008-04-18 19:27:53) kanzure: but it's all blackboxed, this is necessarily different
(2008-04-18 19:27:53) fenn: when the .0 changes to .1, the libraries are no longer compatible
(2008-04-18 19:28:02) kanzure: user experimentation/learning is necessary
(2008-04-18 19:28:05) kanzure: that's all there is to it.
(2008-04-18 19:28:08) fenn: why?
(2008-04-18 19:28:13) kanzure: hell if I know
(2008-04-18 19:28:19) kanzure: but there are obviously emergent effects that have to be dealt with
(2008-04-18 19:28:33) kanzure: electrical interference could be an algorithm that we apply over a person's design before making it
(2008-04-18 19:28:36) kanzure: for final checks and so on
(2008-04-18 19:28:41) kanzure: sure, but that's bloody hard to write
(2008-04-18 19:29:06) kanzure: the point is that those interactions do not happen all the time, therefore there is a likelihood that users can learn how to optimize manufacturing routines or whatever to either avoid those problems or find ways around them
(2008-04-18 19:29:20) kanzure: the system is not totally useless if it can't predict all possible emergent interference (or other) effects
(2008-04-18 19:32:08) fenn: blah.. i dont know what's next: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-software2.png
(2008-04-18 19:32:44) kanzure: btw, you realize the example MD file is suspect right?
(2008-04-18 19:32:53) kanzure: but that's obviously something we can deal with later
(2008-04-18 19:32:59) fenn: suspect how?
(2008-04-18 19:33:10) kanzure: just doesn't feel right
(2008-04-18 19:33:19) kanzure: but back to the 'stuck' part
(2008-04-18 19:33:22) fenn: it's the heart of the system :)
(2008-04-18 19:33:29) fenn: the source of all truth and beauty
(2008-04-18 19:33:51) fenn: it defines the possible logical connections in the graph
(2008-04-18 19:34:18) kanzure: do you assert the general validity of the design of the entire software architecture as shown in the image?
(2008-04-18 19:34:26) fenn: if the MD is wrong, we're screwed
(2008-04-18 19:34:41) fenn: so that's why i want it as simple and hand-crafted as possible
(2008-04-18 19:34:41) kanzure: is that even valid yaml?
(2008-04-18 19:34:49) fenn: close, i need to add some :'s
(2008-04-18 19:34:57) kanzure: also, where's the g-code? etc.
(2008-04-18 19:35:03) kanzure: that's why I say it can wait until later
(2008-04-18 19:35:13) kanzure: the details can be hashed out later, the point is that the rest of the system has to be able to cope with such details
(2008-04-18 19:35:17) fenn: g-code is auto-generated from cad files, or included in the package
(2008-04-18 19:35:19) fenn: g-code sucks
(2008-04-18 19:35:32) kanzure: whatever, I'm using it as a blackbox at the moment
(2008-04-18 19:35:38) fenn: it's very machine specific because the standard is so poor to begin with
(2008-04-18 19:35:44) kanzure: anyway, you may want to add in something about autospec getting the python plugins from skdb (as skdb packages themselves)
(2008-04-18 19:35:47) fenn: you might as well consider it written english
(2008-04-18 19:35:54) kanzure: also, the PV=IR stuff -- you might want to mention 'GNU units'
(2008-04-18 19:36:02) kanzure: is that how bad it is? yikes
(2008-04-18 19:36:17) fenn: well, its bad
(2008-04-18 19:36:39) kanzure: you may want to connect the factory back to the 'optional simulation' (which also adds it back to adding the designs back into skdb, with use-case reports, bugzilla additions, whatever)
(2008-04-18 19:36:55) fenn: ok
(2008-04-18 19:37:59) kanzure: process state config might be the 'print server and fab-lab management / resources / automated tool infrastructure management' stuff, dunno
(2008-04-18 19:38:04) kanzure: I'm assuming yes
(2008-04-18 19:39:03) fenn: yes
(2008-04-18 19:39:13) kanzure: this brings me back to my talk on the "fablab tool API" or whatever -- obviously all tools will have drivers, yes? These drivers will have weird interfaces, sure, so we need to abstract it away from all of the skdb pack
(2008-04-18 19:39:14) kanzure: ages with code in 'em so that the code just queries the server and formulates a yaml production request or whatever, controlling the defined standards for the machinery.
(2008-04-18 19:39:20) kanzure: does that make sense?
(2008-04-18 19:39:47) fenn: no, not all tools will have drivers, obviously hand tools won't
(2008-04-18 19:40:02) fenn: many operations will have to be explained with english
(2008-04-18 19:40:05) kanzure: hand tools can be controlled by hand-manipulators
(2008-04-18 19:40:07) kanzure: yes
(2008-04-18 19:40:09) kanzure: that is true
(2008-04-18 19:40:27) kanzure: ideally, all packages will have loads of natural language stuff dumped into them (kind of like man pages)
(2008-04-18 19:40:34) kanzure: you know how my biohack zip file has tons of information?
(2008-04-18 19:40:46) kanzure: the biohack kit would be a good example of an extra resource to cite in a dot-skdb file
(2008-04-18 19:41:04) fenn: yeah, i figured you wanted to boil biohack.zip down into a series of skdb files
(2008-04-18 19:41:09) kanzure: sure
(2008-04-18 19:41:28) kanzure: but
(2008-04-18 19:41:37) kanzure: but the written text is also important for the by-hand and so on
(2008-04-18 19:41:46) kanzure: sooo the skdb files should also be able to cite alternatives to programmed functions for making things
(2008-04-18 19:41:50) fenn: of course
(2008-04-18 19:41:51) kanzure: "here's what a human could do in this situation" or something
(2008-04-18 19:41:53) kanzure: ok good
(2008-04-18 19:42:10) kanzure: ideally, we could have the program figure out how much can be optimized, and then generate a routine to print out and give to the humans
(2008-04-18 19:42:16) kanzure: and they can walk around and do their checklist
(2008-04-18 19:42:21) kanzure: or query the database for more info (etc.)
(2008-04-18 19:42:24) fenn: this is why all the skill-set theorizing
(2008-04-18 19:42:26) kanzure: "wtf, how do I turn on a microwave"
(2008-04-18 19:43:11) fenn: if you are a total moron you can still pay other people to do operations for you
(2008-04-18 19:43:21) kanzure: hurray for capitalism
(2008-04-18 19:43:35) fenn: meh
(2008-04-18 19:43:40) kanzure: obvious sarcasm
(2008-04-18 19:43:41) kanzure: but anyway
(2008-04-18 19:43:49) fenn: i'd rather people be forced to learn how to survive :)
(2008-04-18 19:44:00) kanzure: you said 'no, [that does not make sense] -- so I think you would now answer 'yes'?
(2008-04-18 19:44:05) kanzure: oops, forgot to closequotes
(2008-04-18 19:44:19) fenn: what didnt make sense?
(2008-04-18 19:44:26) kanzure: I was talking about the fablab tool API
(2008-04-18 19:44:36) kanzure: see, when you program on linux for example
(2008-04-18 19:44:39) kanzure: you just talk about /dev/stuff
(2008-04-18 19:44:43) kanzure: instead of a specific driver for something
(2008-04-18 19:44:52) kanzure: so we need this same sort of system in the sense that there is an abstraction layer that is well-defined
(2008-04-18 19:45:05) fenn: /dev/ is an abstraction layer
(2008-04-18 19:45:07) kanzure: now, some tools might have extra features over other 'equivalents in the same class' of course, but in general,
(2008-04-18 19:45:07) kanzure: yeah
(2008-04-18 19:45:35) kanzure: but I am also pairing this with the ideas of inventory management, layout management (of the equipment and so on), etc.
(2008-04-18 19:45:41) kanzure: so we can still use /dev/ as it is
(2008-04-18 19:46:50) kanzure: also, instead of a vague-amorphous 'internet', we can say "internet = skdb = ikiwiki + git + http interfaces + pgp signing + ... " or something as a temp placeholder
(2008-04-18 19:47:02) kanzure: blah, you have not updated the diagram
(2008-04-18 19:47:16) fenn: well, v=ir is social knowledge that's not yet in skdb
(2008-04-18 19:47:28) fenn: when it gets coded into the plugin, then it puts the DB into skdb
(2008-04-18 19:47:58) fenn: so that layer with the two cylinders is the skdb
(2008-04-18 19:48:21) fenn: below that is code that runs on end-user computer
(2008-04-18 19:48:30) fenn: below that is physical movements etc
(2008-04-18 19:49:18) kanzure: I'd genuinely like the graph to be further updated though -- the more specific ideas I've mentioned can do wonders methinks :)
(2008-04-18 19:52:08) kanzure: blah
(2008-04-18 19:52:16) kanzure: if not that, then what's next?
(2008-04-18 19:57:13) fenn: well, graph looks pretty complicated, hard to add much more without it looking busy
(2008-04-18 19:58:17) kanzure: I would suggest splitting the graph then, but then we lose the "at a glance" functionality of the graphiness
(2008-04-18 19:59:03) fenn: can make new diagrams of sub-systems, i guess
(2008-04-18 20:01:10) fenn: what's next mister roadmap? :P
(2008-04-18 20:01:53) kanzure: processing
(2008-04-18 20:02:17) kanzure: okay, how about this
(2008-04-18 20:02:26) kanzure: instead of diagrams of subsystems, I'll go write up a brief list of descriptions of all of the subsystems
(2008-04-18 20:02:28) fenn: i know you love big blocks of text, but i'm gonna put the diagram on yer wiki
(2008-04-18 20:02:30) kanzure: and then once we validate this list and say 'go ahead'
(2008-04-18 20:02:33) kanzure: yeah, go ahead
(2008-04-18 20:02:43) kanzure: if it's graphviz then you can use <graphviz> random shit here </graphviz>
(2008-04-18 20:03:09) kanzure: so once we confirm the general taggy descriptions for everything, then I say let's go
(2008-04-18 20:03:54) kanzure: in the mean time I'm experimenting with python, yaml, the yaml type repository, pickles, ikiwiki, git, investigating apt a bit more, and really itching to write a giant block of text
(2008-04-18 20:04:00) kanzure: I feel one coming ;)
(2008-04-18 20:05:13) kanzure: http://heybryan.org/music/Grayson/Land%20of%20the%20Free%202/07-empress-qtxmp3.mp3 is on a loop in the background (+ Cradle of Filth - Nymphetamine)
(2008-04-18 20:05:22) kanzure: it's odd how similar these two songs are
(2008-04-18 20:05:25) kanzure: it must be a niche
(2008-04-18 20:06:16) kanzure: http://heybryan.org/music/Cradle%20Of%20Filth%20-%20Nymphetamine.mp3
(2008-04-18 20:09:54) kanzure: please link me once you dump it on the wiki
(2008-04-18 20:10:00) kanzure: btw, image uploads are now allowed
(2008-04-18 20:10:48) fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/skdb
(2008-04-18 20:10:56) fenn: nothing fancy :)
(2008-04-18 20:11:09) fenn: i think i would die if i had to get graphviz to show that
(2008-04-18 20:13:34) kanzure: so, for the implementation of skdb and all of this underlying software
(2008-04-18 20:13:40) kanzure: obviously we are to some extent rewriting portage and apt and so on
(2008-04-18 20:13:44) kanzure: or using parts of them at least
(2008-04-18 20:13:49) fenn: yeah
(2008-04-18 20:13:52) kanzure: so my plan is to release this as a meta package called metarepo
(2008-04-18 20:14:03) kanzure: but that essentially we 'strongly encourage' all instances of the software to be networked together
(2008-04-18 20:14:11) kanzure: ideally you and I can setup an aggregation server or even a main server
(2008-04-18 20:14:27) kanzure: but I would like to see people taking the code and using it for their own local implementations of the entire architecture
(2008-04-18 20:14:45) kanzure: we obviously don't want some guys a few years down the road to come across the software and say "WTF" the same way we did to the lack of an APT website ;)
(2008-04-18 20:15:02) fenn: the idea behind autogenix is that it's a distribution like debian, instead of a bunch of rpm files scattered around the net like redhat seems to have encouraged (or failed to encourage)
(2008-04-18 20:15:04) kanzure: plus the ability to set up clones of the software is an obvious advantage
(2008-04-18 20:15:07) kanzure: sure
(2008-04-18 20:15:17) kanzure: with debian, anybody can set up and provide a mirror
(2008-04-18 20:15:32) kanzure: the .skdb files allow us to point to other resources and splice networks together
(2008-04-18 20:15:40) kanzure: but the goal will be consolidation, yes
(2008-04-18 20:15:52) fenn: bittorrent provides some nice facilities, md5 verification, tracker info etc
(2008-04-18 20:16:00) kanzure: my thoughts exactly
(2008-04-18 20:16:08) kanzure: torrents come into play at multiple points in this system
(2008-04-18 20:16:18) fenn: no need to set up a bunch of 'centralized' servers if we're just going to decentralize them
(2008-04-18 20:16:18) kanzure: but it seems like the implementation details can be held off until long after a first release
(2008-04-18 20:16:23) kanzure: well
(2008-04-18 20:16:24) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-18 20:16:33) kanzure: but I thought we want centralization? a total database that keeps all of the files cached?
(2008-04-18 20:16:40) kanzure: because we don't really want to rely on third party servers to keep up
(2008-04-18 20:16:43) kanzure: or for people to pay their bills etc.
(2008-04-18 20:16:45) kanzure: bad, bad idea.
(2008-04-18 20:17:00) fenn: yes, we'll keep a sort of 'archive' that keeps the torrents seeded?
(2008-04-18 20:17:06) kanzure: k
(2008-04-18 20:17:12) fenn: can torrent software handle downloading 1000's of files at once?
(2008-04-18 20:17:19) kanzure: surely?
(2008-04-18 20:17:31) kanzure: can http software ?
(2008-04-18 20:17:48) fenn: i think http turns to crap after about 4 connections
(2008-04-18 20:17:57) kanzure: that is not encouraging ...
(2008-04-18 20:18:20) kanzure: worst case scenario: we dump all data on to a handful of DVDs or a large hard drive and mail it to interested third parties
(2008-04-18 20:18:34) fenn: so, lots of little files makes for a more up-to-date system, but glomming into tarballs makes for better compression
(2008-04-18 20:18:46) kanzure: yes
(2008-04-18 20:18:50) fenn: hah if we ever get that much data i'm going to declare success and move to mars
(2008-04-18 20:18:56) kanzure: I like the idea of an underlying distribution grassroots thing
(2008-04-18 20:19:03) kanzure: with us seeding
(2008-04-18 20:19:06) kanzure: that makes good sense IMHO
(2008-04-18 20:20:31) kanzure: tell me if this makes sense
(2008-04-18 20:20:41) kanzure: a site with 60 million members has periodic problems with their web services
(2008-04-18 20:20:59) kanzure: who the hell is running that place
(2008-04-18 20:21:03) kanzure: *development servers*
(2008-04-18 20:21:10) fenn: sourceforge? what a crock
(2008-04-18 20:21:14) kanzure: http://gaiaonline.com/
(2008-04-18 20:21:29) kanzure: I go there occassionally to check for priv-msgs from a certain somebody
(2008-04-18 20:21:37) fenn: never heard of it
(2008-04-18 20:21:55) kanzure: I'd describe it as neopets for anime fans
(2008-04-18 20:23:05) fenn: did i ever tell you about smirf?
(2008-04-18 20:23:23) kanzure: no?
(2008-04-18 20:23:27) fenn: http://fenn.freeshell.org/smirf/smirf.html
(2008-04-18 20:23:41) fenn: the idea was to make an MMO that was based on engineering/physics principles
(2008-04-18 20:24:13) kanzure: interesting
(2008-04-18 20:24:15) fenn: the project would harness the vast numbers of players to make a better in-game cad system/physics simulator
(2008-04-18 20:24:19) kanzure: you took a much more technical approach to what I was doing
(2008-04-18 20:24:39) kanzure: in my "I wanna write an MMO days", I mean.
(2008-04-18 20:24:47) fenn: eventually all the 'magical' devices would fail and you'd rely on deterministic clockwork stuff like we have to use in the real world
(2008-04-18 20:25:08) fenn: i didnt want to write an mmo, i wanted a cad system with corresponding physics simulator :)
(2008-04-18 20:25:49) fenn: alpha and beta would correspond to new buggy software of course
(2008-04-18 20:26:20) kanzure: Noah just linked me over to http://cba.mit.edu/events/08.04.ASC/ - looks like David did a presentation yesterday
(2008-04-18 20:26:54) kanzure: The Internet as a Computing Surface
(2008-04-18 20:26:56) kanzure: fab in a boxd
(2008-04-18 20:26:57) kanzure: *box
(2008-04-18 20:27:05) kanzure: Reverse engineering the brain
(2008-04-18 20:27:22) kanzure: How to build a brain (but it's Minsky)
(2008-04-18 20:28:22) fenn: cool stuff, hurray for academia
(2008-04-18 20:29:21) fenn: bussard said the main reason he never gave lectures and conferences was so he could get some work done
(2008-04-18 20:29:40) fenn: (i'm probably misquoting him)
(2008-04-18 20:31:32) kanzure: if I am ever forced to give a lecture, I'm going to immediately turn it into an informal unconference
(2008-04-18 20:32:24) kanzure: nah, nevermind
(2008-04-18 20:32:28) kanzure: I'd enjoy the attention
(2008-04-18 20:34:41) kanzure: my attention is shot - I can either do a block of text or go do something else
(2008-04-18 20:35:12) kanzure: need faster music
(2008-04-18 20:35:14) fenn: why dont you write out descriptions of subsystems
(2008-04-18 20:36:25) kanzure: ten thousand thoughts a second is rather debilitating
(2008-04-18 21:03:28) fenn: hah. some very smart brazilians turned my penguin sketch into a 3d model http://videolog.uol.com.br/video.php?id=321558&grupo=161
(2008-04-18 21:30:38) kanzure: http://heybryan.org/docs/dbz/goku.html hurray for pathetic attempts at writing out vague concepts
(2008-04-18 21:32:24) kanzure: other interpretations of the same character are much too violent
(2008-04-18 21:33:06) kanzure: (don't get me wrong, I can go for violence :))
(2008-04-18 21:44:55) fenn: goku always seemed a little slow to me, good at heart but no prince vegeta
(2008-04-18 22:19:19) kanzure: in fact, none of them were all that bright
(2008-04-19 00:00:13) Splicer2 [n=p@h174n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] entered the room.
(2008-04-19 00:05:06) kanzure: fenn: I wonder if agx-make directly generates CAM or not. I suspect not. agx-make would be more like the API layer to /dev/ more than anything else.
(2008-04-19 00:05:08) kanzure: yes?
(2008-04-19 00:05:25) kanzure: it would aggregate all of the information relevant as inputs to the machinery in your local fab-lab-configuration
(2008-04-19 00:12:02) fenn: agx-make is a compiler that can call many different 'backend' CAM tools
(2008-04-19 00:12:27) kanzure: can we hack gcc for this purpose?
(2008-04-19 00:12:31) kanzure: port gcc to a new 'isa'
(2008-04-19 00:12:39) kanzure: where this 'isa' is the fablab instruments?
(2008-04-19 00:12:49) fenn: dunno, gcc is a C compiler mostly
(2008-04-19 00:13:35) fenn: using make might make sense
(2008-04-19 00:13:40) fenn: gnu make
(2008-04-19 00:13:55) kanzure: I'm just wondering to what extent we can consider it a compiler
(2008-04-19 00:14:09) kanzure: since technically gnu make is not a compiler in the truest sense, last I checked
(2008-04-19 00:14:23) fenn: ok, it's not a compiler, its a "make" whatever you call that
(2008-04-19 00:14:31) kanzure: plus we don't have to compile the firmware for each new package physical implementation
(2008-04-19 00:14:33) kanzure: ok
(2008-04-19 00:14:45) Splicer left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(2008-04-19 00:15:00) Splicer [n=p@h174n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] entered the room.
(2008-04-19 00:15:46) fenn: its a frontend that causes software files for performing a particular physical operation to be compiled
(2008-04-19 00:16:11) fenn: where said physical operation is one that's been verified to be feasible with the current infrastructure/inventory
(2008-04-19 00:16:36) kanzure: yes
(2008-04-19 00:16:58) kanzure: my thoughts were that the skdb packages would generate yaml serialized data structs
(2008-04-19 00:17:11) kanzure: these structs would be the files that the tools are programmed to physically follow and/or implement
(2008-04-19 00:17:15) kanzure: simple enough, no?
(2008-04-19 00:18:08) fenn: yeah, the yaml will get boiled down into longer and longer sequences of lower level data, until it reaches basic 'move motor' type information
(2008-04-19 00:18:26) kanzure: or "move your ass, human!"
(2008-04-19 00:18:41) fenn: well, you'd want to give the human higher level data
(2008-04-19 00:18:47) fenn: depending on their skill level, of course
(2008-04-19 00:19:00) fenn: you can say 'now solder r1. now solder r2' to an electronics pro
(2008-04-19 00:19:00) kanzure: I was thinking something more subtle; electric shocks? joking aside, yes
(2008-04-19 00:19:04) fenn: er, can't
(2008-04-19 00:19:46) fenn: http://ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/solder.html
(2008-04-19 00:20:16) fenn: it would be neat if we could automatically generate instructions like that
(2008-04-19 00:20:51) kanzure: she's a classic
(2008-04-19 00:21:13) kanzure: how many times has she been on Slashdot now? three? four?
(2008-04-19 00:21:23) fenn: dunno, slashdot is so crap anymore i dont read it
(2008-04-19 00:21:42) kanzure: especially after the electronics "SHE'S A WOMAN WITH ELECTRONS BUZZING AROUND, A TERRORIST! JUMP HER!" scare
(2008-04-19 00:22:05) Splicer2 left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(2008-04-19 00:25:33) fenn: could you explain what this line means? To continue: just as you cannot search for software based on functionality, you cannot search for other tools based on functionality, except in as much as the language and social context allows you to express similar ideas that others have had before (natural languages have allowed this to some extent)
(2008-04-19 00:25:51) kanzure: yes
(2008-04-19 00:26:09) kanzure: suppose you 'know' that something must exist out there in the world
(2008-04-19 00:26:19) kanzure: try to find it on Google without having verbal grounding in reality
(2008-04-19 00:26:24) kanzure: knowing how other people would word it.
(2008-04-19 00:26:40) fenn: sure i had that problem the other day with eval()
(2008-04-19 00:26:42) kanzure: same thing with software ... you don't search for "if then if then if then" (since that'd be programming the thing you want!)
(2008-04-19 00:27:11) kanzure: you search for tags and descriptions etc., there is a lot of social context that programmers usually tend to forget ... they are not intuiting their programs from out of the blue :)
(2008-04-19 00:27:21) kanzure: as much as I'd like to think I am ...
(2008-04-19 00:27:42) fenn: you read too much for that to be true
(2008-04-19 00:27:55) kanzure: <-- tainted
(2008-04-19 00:28:14) kanzure: but I started off a total moron, so perhaps not?
(2008-04-19 00:28:48) fenn: back before the internet, i came up with the idea that we only really have three or four original thoughts in a year (actually i was a bit more harsh, saying all thoughts were derived from someone else)
(2008-04-19 00:28:58) kanzure: sure, aggregation
(2008-04-19 00:29:13) fenn: but see, we dont realize it, we think they're all new ideas and belong to us
(2008-04-19 00:29:16) kanzure: permutation/mutation/insight v. recombination
(2008-04-19 00:29:39) kanzure: s/recombination/recombination+aggregation/
(2008-04-19 00:29:53) kanzure: perhaps permutation and mutation would go along with refactoring and documenting
(2008-04-19 00:30:06) fenn: no, refactoring is generalizing
(2008-04-19 00:30:31) fenn: or categorizing sometimes
(2008-04-19 00:30:43) kanzure: hm.
(2008-04-19 00:30:51) fenn: the point of refactoring is that it's not a creative act
(2008-04-19 00:31:19) fenn: you keep the same functionality but make a program easier to modify or improve upon
(2008-04-19 00:31:43) kanzure: hm, yes, so therefore it doesn't fit on that spectrum I was using above
(2008-04-19 00:31:45) fenn: epicycles -> kepler's law
(2008-04-19 00:31:59) fenn: can you imagine epicycles with relativity thrown in?
(2008-04-19 00:32:26) kanzure: epicycles were simply the rotations around celestial bodies, right?
(2008-04-19 00:32:42) kanzure: relativity is then just observer bias factored in, yes?
(2008-04-19 00:33:01) fenn: sorta. they said spheres are perfect so therefore planets must move in circles, or at least circles on circles
(2008-04-19 00:33:14) fenn: then they had circles on circles on circles to make it fit the data
(2008-04-19 00:33:31) kanzure: I am impressed + baffled by astronomers
(2008-04-19 00:33:31) fenn: so kepler came along and refactored it, 'its an ellipse you dummies'
(2008-04-19 00:33:38) kanzure: I keep on looking at star charts and so on
(2008-04-19 00:33:41) kanzure: and I have *NO* clue how these things work
(2008-04-19 00:33:45) kanzure: the planet is freaking *rotating*
(2008-04-19 00:33:57) kanzure: and all of the star charts don't seem to take that into account
(2008-04-19 00:34:05) kanzure: how the hell can they predict where the stars will be no matter where you are in the world?
(2008-04-19 00:34:06) fenn: oh, you can 'factor out' the planets rotation by taking an observation at the same time each day
(2008-04-19 00:34:10) kanzure: doesn't it depend on your location of observin?
(2008-04-19 00:34:35) kanzure: altitude, direction, coordinates, etc.?
(2008-04-19 00:34:36) fenn: or you can generalize the relationship between time and rotation of the sky
(2008-04-19 00:34:51) kanzure: angle of inclination, ...
(2008-04-19 00:34:52) fenn: well, most observatories dont travel around :)
(2008-04-19 00:34:57) kanzure: ah
(2008-04-19 00:35:02) fenn: angle of inclination is what you're measuring
(2008-04-19 00:35:20) kanzure: but wouldn't that depend on your xyz coords on the surface topology of the planet manifold?
(2008-04-19 00:35:27) kanzure: remove the word 'manifold' from that sentence
(2008-04-19 00:36:20) fenn: er.. angle of inclination relative to the horizon depends on the local topology, yes
(2008-04-19 00:36:40) fenn: so usually they fix on the north star or something (i'm not an astronomer)
(2008-04-19 00:36:51) kanzure: ohh
(2008-04-19 00:36:57) kanzure: and then they can use time synchronization via watches and clocks
(2008-04-19 00:37:05) kanzure: thus you should be able to determine what's going on based off of your watch
(2008-04-19 00:37:14) kanzure: and the location of some main orienting ref object
(2008-04-19 00:37:22) kanzure: and then extract your relative differences or something
(2008-04-19 00:37:29) fenn: yep
(2008-04-19 00:37:46) kanzure: never heard any talk of that, though
(2008-04-19 00:38:35) fenn: the other half of astronomy is emission spectrography (or absorption if its a planet)
(2008-04-19 00:39:02) kanzure: right, I can understand that
(2008-04-19 00:39:22) kanzure: easy stuff, that's just astrophysics, photons and red shifts and shifts due to movements etc.
(2008-04-19 00:39:35) fenn: oh, sure, easy
(2008-04-19 00:39:38) fenn: ;)
(2008-04-19 00:39:48) kanzure: much easier when you can do it from orbit
(2008-04-19 00:39:52) fenn: nevermind that it's all LIES
(2008-04-19 00:39:52) kanzure: without atmospheric interference
(2008-04-19 00:39:55) kanzure: is it?
(2008-04-19 00:40:19) fenn: it all seems rather tenuous to me
(2008-04-19 00:40:44) fenn: this has redshift, therefore it must be moving away from us .. well, what if space is non-uniform?
(2008-04-19 00:41:09) kanzure: 'space' itself is tricky stuff
(2008-04-19 00:41:32) fenn: ok, i'll state it differently. what if the speed of light changes depending on where you are
(2008-04-19 00:41:52) kanzure: while I'm not about to suggest the ancient aether theories, I'm not about to suggest that the 'vacuum of space' is a vacuum ... not with the nonzero energy content of the vacuum of space. It's 4 K.
(2008-04-19 00:42:07) kanzure: sure, if it's not truly a vacuum then the speed of light is relative to the environment
(2008-04-19 00:42:21) kanzure: just like we can 'slow' light down in ultracold environments
(2008-04-19 00:45:11) fenn: well, i dont have a telescope so i basically have to take these peoples' word for it
(2008-04-19 00:45:54) kanzure: launching a satellite is peanuts in comparison to most of my ideas, eh?
(2008-04-19 00:46:02) kanzure: the guys in #space are building one
(2008-04-19 00:46:07) kanzure: or maybe it's #astronomy
(2008-04-19 00:46:26) fenn: launching a satellite is 1957 technology
(2008-04-19 00:46:37) kanzure: then why the hell do people complain so much about doingi t
(2008-04-19 00:46:42) kanzure: jackasses
(2008-04-19 00:47:03) fenn: because they dont have the funding of the entire post-war soviet union
(2008-04-19 00:48:00) kanzure: please, with your interest in gingery?
(2008-04-19 00:48:17) kanzure: many rocket enthusiasts do metal shopping and make their own damn rockets by hand
(2008-04-19 00:48:42) fenn: many rocket enthusiasts dont understand the extreme differences between a sounding rocket and an orbital rocket
(2008-04-19 00:48:59) fenn: sure, what's another few decimal places
(2008-04-19 00:49:02) kanzure: heh
(2008-04-19 00:49:35) fenn: and its not just quantitative, it's qualitative because the costs go up exponentially
(2008-04-19 00:49:41) kanzure: costs?
(2008-04-19 00:50:01) fenn: yes, costs: time, energy, motivation
(2008-04-19 00:50:17) kanzure: motivation ... should never cost.
(2008-04-19 00:50:27) fenn: bah you can say that about anything
(2008-04-19 00:50:40) kanzure: "As I move, so I move the universe." - Danlo
(2008-04-19 00:50:46) kanzure: it's up on my whiteboard
(2008-04-19 00:51:05) fenn: time is nature's way of making sure everything doesn't happen at once - what is motivation for then?
(2008-04-19 00:51:13) kanzure: Lion Kimbro would argue time is bullshit
(2008-04-19 00:51:22) kanzure: http://www.speakeasy.org/~lion/
(2008-04-19 00:52:29) fenn: ask him what we should do next :)
(2008-04-19 00:52:33) kanzure: shit shit shit shit shit
(2008-04-19 00:52:33) kanzure: http://www.davidzindell.com/
(2008-04-19 00:52:53) fenn: Time is an Invention of Awareness
(2008-04-19 00:53:00) fenn: sounds like it exists then?
(2008-04-19 00:53:01) kanzure: but I was looking for http://hometown.aol.com/pylebc/zindell.htm
(2008-04-19 00:53:10) kanzure: actually another page
(2008-04-19 00:54:13) fenn: bleh.. that pseudo-spiritual stuff doesnt motivate me, unfortunately
(2008-04-19 00:55:30) kanzure: ignore it
(2008-04-19 00:55:38) kanzure: he's otherwise a high signal to noise author
(2008-04-19 00:55:42) kanzure: on which Orion's Arm is mostly based
(2008-04-19 00:57:32) kanzure: ah, here we go
(2008-04-19 00:57:33) kanzure: http://home.austin.rr.com/lperson/fireser.html
(2008-04-19 01:02:16) fenn: oh well, at least he doesnt trivialize a post-human intelligence the way charles stross does in accelerando
(2008-04-19 01:02:24) kanzure: heh
(2008-04-19 01:02:28) fenn: "look its a girl in a box"
(2008-04-19 01:02:31) kanzure: hurray
(2008-04-19 01:02:33) kanzure: hehe
(2008-04-19 01:02:37) kanzure: yeah, I wouldn't mind writing some intense scifi
(2008-04-19 01:02:50) kanzure: I certainly know I can read enough and do a massive review to aggregate enough future tech and philosophy in one gulp
(2008-04-19 01:03:05) fenn: writing is hard, really
(2008-04-19 01:03:16) fenn: not worth it
(2008-04-19 01:03:33) fenn: why do you think there's so much crap on TV
(2008-04-19 01:04:37) kanzure: I find writing to be easy.
(2008-04-19 01:04:43) kanzure: refactoring is what's hard
(2008-04-19 01:05:21) kanzure: and I much rather prefer my stories be told in physical constructions (==> skdb) or functionality rather than empty promises
(2008-04-19 01:08:03) fenn: "IMPRINTING - Changing the metabolic pathways and neural network; redefining the synapses of the brain" this one happens to be more real than most people know
(2008-04-19 01:08:19) kanzure: location?
(2008-04-19 01:08:27) fenn: http://hometown.aol.com/pylebc/zgloss.htm
(2008-04-19 01:08:30) kanzure: just seems to be out of the blue-- ah
(2008-04-19 01:08:37) kanzure: yep
(2008-04-19 01:08:43) kanzure: your thoughts are changing metabolism, technically
(2008-04-19 01:08:50) kanzure: because your thoughts require energy, no?
(2008-04-19 01:09:15) kanzure: the mapping between thoughts and precise, discrete changes in cellular metabolism is interesting
(2008-04-19 01:09:29) kanzure: I think this is where Gary Lynch did his LTP studies, but it wasn't from a subjective POV of thinking of course
(2008-04-19 01:09:35) kanzure: (it was rat training + mem engrams)
(2008-04-19 01:10:50) fenn: its not so much a change in the neural network as a change in the weight-assigning/backpropagation algorithm
(2008-04-19 01:11:50) fenn: they never should have changed it from 'long lasting potentiation'
(2008-04-19 01:12:33) fenn: one of these years i'll learn all the silly neuro jargon
(2008-04-19 01:15:18) Splicer2 [n=p@h174n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] entered the room.
(2008-04-19 01:16:49) kanzure: fenn: I'll write up that list of progs for skdb and so on tomorrow; I've been toying around with ikiwiki tonight and will be getting to work in the morning
(2008-04-19 01:17:08) kanzure: tonight officially has sucked - inattentive + hyperaction => circles
(2008-04-19 01:20:30) fenn: i'm processing the skdb article into something resembling prose
(2008-04-19 01:24:08) kanzure: thank you
(2008-04-19 01:24:13) kanzure: I'll probably join you on that sometime tomorrow