| --- Day changed Sat Apr 26 2008 | ||
| fenn | http://everything2.com/e2node/Santa%2520Machine | 00:22 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | note the ref to Damien Broderick | 00:23 |
| kanzure | Damien and I have been talking recently. | 00:23 |
| fenn | yes, have you read that book> | 00:24 |
| kanzure | actually, no | 00:24 |
| kanzure | but I probably should :) | 00:24 |
| kanzure | I also see a Hamilton ref and Stephenson ref | 00:24 |
| kanzure | I've read Hamilton's Mindstar story, it started off with some good hard scifi, though not quite hard enough for my tastes (it could have been harder, more edge and cut sort of thing) | 00:24 |
| kanzure | should I bother writing something on that everything2 node? | 00:25 |
| kanzure | or just get back to reading up on git | 00:25 |
| fenn | e2 has an even more strict and irrational editorial policy than wikipedia | 00:25 |
| fenn | they seem to be proud of their literary consistence above all else | 00:26 |
| fenn | consistency | 00:26 |
| fenn | so you can't just add a line here or there | 00:26 |
| kanzure | it looks like you can add a few paragraphs that are 'self-referential' or of the same theme/style and be good | 00:27 |
| kanzure | but I haven't recursed through e2 explicitly before. | 00:27 |
| fenn | dont try, it will take a couple lifetimes | 00:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca/wiki/index.php/Other_Courses weird amount of content | 00:35 |
| fenn | hyperphysics is good for just about anything physics | 00:38 |
| fenn | if you want to know formulas and their derivation | 00:38 |
| kanzure | yep | 00:38 |
| kanzure | 'You may notice that the output here looks very much like the first portion of the output from "git pull". This is no coincidence. The new changes have been "fetched" into the current repository and are stored into "origin/master" and have not been into the current "master" branch. Remember that "master" is our current branch. So now, "origin/master" is the state of the master branch that exists in the "origin" repository, (the on | 00:45 |
| kanzure | ugh? | 00:46 |
| kanzure | @ http://cworth.org/hgbook-git/tour/ | 00:46 |
| kanzure | I think that's just saying "this is the same repo we originally cloned, not the one with the updates" | 00:48 |
| kanzure | hm, perhaps not | 00:48 |
| fenn | duh.. pardon me but why is mercurial documentation in a git repo? | 00:49 |
| kanzure | as an example, perhaps | 00:49 |
| fenn | did it change names? | 00:49 |
| fenn | ok, so mercurial is definitely not git :) | 00:50 |
| fenn | i had to look that up | 00:50 |
| fenn | i guess he just used the mercurial tutorial as a template | 00:52 |
| kanzure | even after reading the tutorial some things are still hazy | 00:56 |
| kanzure | for example, suppose I git-clone a repo | 00:56 |
| kanzure | then I do some changes, and then spawn my own local branch, | 00:56 |
| kanzure | and then want to commit my spawned branch in the main repo that I originally got the first from. | 00:56 |
| kanzure | how ? | 00:56 |
| fenn | git push origin branchname ? | 01:11 |
| fenn | assuming you want the branch to show up as a branch in the main repo | 01:11 |
| fenn | but usually it seems people use pull more than push | 01:14 |
| fenn | i.e. there's no "main repo" | 01:14 |
| fenn | i dont understand why they use the extended ref-spec here: "git push origin devel-something:refs/heads/devel-something" | 01:16 |
| kanzure | what is the use of a 'extended ref-spec' or what is it supposed to be? | 01:22 |
| fenn | if you want to push your changes to a different branch | 01:23 |
| fenn | works when i do it my way; seems to work their way but i dont see it in git branch -r | 01:33 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-04-25#News <-- me did a news dump | 01:46 |
| kanzure | re: supermemo http://heybryan.org/shots/March14th02007.PNG - screenshot of my use of it | 01:57 |
| kanzure | http://supermemo.com/ | 01:57 |
| kanzure | http://supermemo.com/articles/genius.htm - gets most things right, but is missing a few key points that I've learned since I last read it, 2006? | 01:58 |
| kanzure | it's in the news under the heading "Never forget anything again" ehhh | 01:59 |
| kanzure | woo | 02:01 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_of_manufacturing_processes | 02:01 |
| fenn | i was pretty surprised when i saw these graphs (which i had arrived at independently): http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleepchart.htm | 02:02 |
| kanzure | wish I would have read that before trying out polyphasic sleep in 2005 | 02:03 |
| kanzure | it was during spring break, so I lost some good, useful time | 02:03 |
| fenn | eh? it doesnt say anything about polyphasic sleep | 02:04 |
| kanzure | oh | 02:04 |
| kanzure | wrong article, hold on | 02:04 |
| kanzure | http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm | 02:04 |
| kanzure | hm, from that page - 'One minute of insight can be worth a century of shoveling!' | 02:06 |
| fenn | i'd like to see some scientific studies with more than one person's experience | 02:06 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/thinking.html re: insight | 02:06 |
| kanzure | sure, he has references in there | 02:06 |
| fenn | "Anything against the free running rhythm is bound to result in mental torture and cognitive deficit" <- that's for damn sure | 02:08 |
| kanzure | sounds like school | 02:08 |
| fenn | my thoughts exactly | 02:08 |
| fenn | you'd think there would be all sorts of weird sleep-pattern-inducing drugs out there | 02:11 |
| fenn | beyond just stimulants and sleeping pills | 02:11 |
| kanzure | I don't know if we know enough about sleep to understand that | 02:14 |
| kanzure | however, I can definitely tell when I am "out of it" | 02:14 |
| kanzure | hm, speaking of which, now might be some good time for me to fetch some sleep | 02:15 |
| fenn | hah | 02:15 |
| kanzure | 3D real-time spatiotemporal dendritic voltages could be used to recreate dendritic objects a.k.a. perceptions in other ways - 53:50 in the video; hm, I guess he didn't really talk about what I was thinking about | 02:33 |
| kanzure | but it's definitely unspoken re: aggregation, spill-over, and top-down rule-based management or organization of the aggregating layers of the brain towards strategies and approaches to living/thinking/etc., | 02:33 |
| kanzure | 1999 group, IIRC, was able to hack into a cat visual cortex to retrieve visual data that was going through the eye (a television, actually) | 02:34 |
| kanzure | but I think they were doing spikes | 02:35 |
| kanzure | which doesn't make too much sense | 02:35 |
| kanzure | maybe they were doing patch-clamp, but that's destructive, no? | 02:35 |
| kanzure | oh | 02:38 |
| kanzure | distance between synapses - spillover from one input is almost impossible to avoid, to another one. Within 200 nm there's another synapse that is related to a different neuron. What the brain is trying to do is control the voltage within a certain voxel compartment - not so much a particular neuron. This would be an attempt to control pain/energy/action. Electromagnetic dendritic objects. We do not see the world. What we do is we | 02:38 |
| kanzure | so the brain is overall trying to control the voltage within a minicolumn | 02:39 |
| kanzure | there we go | 02:39 |
| kanzure | so what would voltage controlling theoretics say about that | 02:39 |
| kanzure | in electronics | 02:40 |
| kanzure | would this imply that the top-down management of the brain procs are there to do voltage minimization/maximization to get the systems to 'equilibriate' ? would that make sense, from an electronics point of view? | 02:42 |
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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/img_8028.jpg - my other shelf, mostly scifi and programming, but this scifi is old stuff - it doesn't include my 'new' (since 2005?) stacks | 16:41 |
| marainein | books, books | 16:45 |
| marainein | "* for dummies"...:P | 16:46 |
| kanzure | hehe | 16:51 |
| marainein | they're not bad...I have an ebook of bioinformatics for dummies | 16:53 |
| kanzure | awesome :-) | 16:54 |
| kanzure | Most of my texts are in | 16:54 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/img_8032.jpg | 16:54 |
| kanzure | and then a lot that are digital ... | 16:54 |
| marainein | I think that's my first year biology book | 17:03 |
| kanzure | What's that firefox plugin that lets you analyze flash? To see if it's loading anything from the site? | 17:07 |
| kanzure | flashtracer? | 17:08 |
| marainein | I didn't know there was one | 17:08 |
| kanzure | http://www.refactoring.com/ | 17:49 |
| kanzure | I think this is everything for agx-get.py - http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-04-26 | 18:20 |
| kanzure | except that I wasn't writing in python, oops | 18:20 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Copyright <- This is the best thing I ever read. Too bad it was Canada and not the US. | 18:24 |
| kanzure | Heh, Paul is good - | 18:29 |
| kanzure | Or (paraphrased: :-) | 18:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes | 18:29 |
| kanzure | """ | 18:29 |
| kanzure | Gold Leader: Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are semantic wikis and | 18:29 |
| kanzure | desktops going to be against Virgle? | 18:29 |
| kanzure | General Dodonna: Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small cgi script on a | 18:29 |
| kanzure | shared server or desktop to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | ,,, | 18:29 |
| kanzure | Commander #1: We've analyzed their attack on Knol, sir, and there is a | 18:29 |
| kanzure | danger. Should I have your Golden Parachute standing by? | 18:29 |
| kanzure | Governor Schmidt: Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you | 18:29 |
| kanzure | overestimate their chances. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | """ | 18:29 |
| * fenn paddles ferociously in the torrent. trying to keep up | 18:34 | |
| fenn | "the configuration | 18:35 |
| fenn | script" | 18:35 |
| fenn | does what exactly? | 18:35 |
| kanzure | it's bad to call it a configuration script | 18:41 |
| kanzure | call it a 'runtime script' | 18:41 |
| kanzure | agx-get lets you use parameters, | 18:41 |
| kanzure | the default behavior is to download the metadata file | 18:42 |
| kanzure | anything else would mean downloading a portion of the skdb git repo | 18:42 |
| kanzure | (for that particular project) | 18:42 |
| kanzure | different 'runtime scripts' for different 'objects' or whatever will let you specify different things | 18:42 |
| kanzure | like comfiness ;-) | 18:42 |
| kanzure | but I recall that being a bad example | 18:42 |
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| fenn | just had an idea for a "rapid prototyping" process: get a package of barbecue skewers, feed them into your cnc chop-saw which cuts them to length based on a simple 3d mesh representing the object you want | 20:12 |
| fenn | then you drill holes into 'gumdrops' some roughly spherical shape that's cheap and commonly available | 20:13 |
| fenn | and the computer gives you instructions to put them together to reconstruct the 3d mesh | 20:13 |
| kanzure | hm? barbeque skewers are what? | 20:13 |
| kanzure | while I might live in Texas, I try to avoid barbeques | 20:14 |
| fenn | a readily available cheap package of pointy bamboo rods | 20:14 |
| fenn | about 14 inches long 1/8" wide | 20:14 |
| fenn | the gumdrops kinda mess the process up, maybe using straws and bolting/riveting them together would work better (like an an electrical conduit dome) | 20:15 |
| fenn | you could make straws from a continuous roll of tape, somehow | 20:16 |
| fenn | it would be like those lawn ornament wire deer people put up with christmas lights | 20:17 |
| kanzure | #git is confusing me ... if you clone a git repo, do some updates, commit, then push, but within the time that it took you to do all of that, somebody *else* cloned a git repo, you can't push your changes to the main repo since it's "checked out" | 20:18 |
| kanzure | but wtf is this useful for if you can't put your code changes back into the main repo | 20:18 |
| fenn | checked out? what does that mean? (sounds like some ancient lock-based rcs) | 20:19 |
| kanzure | that's what #git is saying | 20:19 |
| kanzure | "checked out" | 20:19 |
| kanzure | I certainly didn't use that term with 'em. | 20:19 |
| fenn | i think that phrase only applies to using a specific branch | 20:20 |
| fenn | or messing with cvs | 20:20 |
| fenn | aha - you mentioned 'checked out' first | 20:23 |
| kanzure | did i? | 20:24 |
| fenn | http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/git?date=2008-04-27 | 20:24 |
| kanzure | 00:15 | 20:24 |
| kanzure | that's not me | 20:25 |
| fenn | oh oops. do you understand the difference between a branch and a cloned repo? | 20:25 |
| kanzure | not yet | 20:26 |
| kanzure | please help :-( | 20:26 |
| fenn | ok, a branch is like, say you undo a bunch of changes and then start editing an old copy | 20:26 |
| fenn | now you're moving along a different timeline | 20:26 |
| kanzure | but isn't that a repo | 20:27 |
| kanzure | you just cloned the "old version" | 20:27 |
| fenn | that's a branch | 20:27 |
| fenn | both timelines are recorded in a repo | 20:27 |
| fenn | timeline == branch | 20:27 |
| kanzure | okay, so if you have version 4 at the moment, and I clone from version 2, does my version 2 repo have version 4 in it somewhere ? | 20:27 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:28 |
| fenn | um.. forget about cloning 'version 2' | 20:28 |
| kanzure | but you just said | 20:28 |
| kanzure | 'undoing a bunch of changes'w | 20:28 |
| kanzure | so if your timeline has A, B, C, D (current) | 20:28 |
| kanzure | and you clone B | 20:28 |
| kanzure | eh | 20:28 |
| fenn | yeah, so your working directory is showing an old version | 20:28 |
| fenn | you can't clone B | 20:28 |
| kanzure | oh? | 20:28 |
| fenn | (not without making thing harder to understand) | 20:28 |
| fenn | i can hit you with a ruler if you like :) | 20:29 |
| kanzure | okay, so you can *branch* from an old version, but you can't clone an old version | 20:29 |
| fenn | clone means get the whole repo, which includes all the branches | 20:29 |
| fenn | the closest thing to a 'main repo' is some branch that you intend to be distributed widely | 20:31 |
| kanzure | but then why were they talking about 'checking out' ? | 20:32 |
| kanzure | hrme.fjkdlfjaldkfjal | 20:32 |
| fenn | the neat thing is that all the changes on development branches that get included in the distribution branch will show up there as if they were just edited on the distribution branch | 20:32 |
| fenn | 'check out' means, 'show me this branch (at this version) in the working directory' | 20:32 |
| fenn | its a bad analogy i think | 20:33 |
| kanzure | but they said locks | 20:33 |
| kanzure | wait | 20:33 |
| kanzure | aha | 20:33 |
| kanzure | they didn't | 20:33 |
| kanzure | that's the difference | 20:33 |
| kanzure | I thought they were saying something was locked | 20:33 |
| kanzure | but in this model you don't "lock a branch down" | 20:33 |
| fenn | its not locks exactly | 20:34 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-26 19:29:30) jdq: I would suggest only to push to bare repostories and update those with working copies only by pulling | 20:34 |
| kanzure | that strategy sounds like a good idea | 20:34 |
| fenn | see, you dont normally push to someone else's repository, they will pull from you if they want to, and then if there's problems with the merge they get fixed when the person is pulling | 20:34 |
| kanzure | right | 20:35 |
| fenn | otherwise you're throwing monkeywrenches on their workbench | 20:35 |
| fenn | you could rebase your changes on the current version of the repo you're trying to push to (if you dont want to obligate the recipient to fix merge errors) | 20:36 |
| kanzure | but the recipient might have other changes of his own of course | 20:36 |
| kanzure | oh | 20:36 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 20:36 |
| kanzure | he could then pull those changes (or you can push to him) | 20:36 |
| kanzure | but that's no guarantee that his modifications don't conflict with yours | 20:36 |
| kanzure | so rebasing doesn't sound possible, unless the developer hasn't done anything to the files | 20:36 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:36 |
| kanzure | but that's not much of an issue | 20:36 |
| kanzure | I can live with that | 20:36 |
| fenn | you'd still test your changes after rebasing of course | 20:37 |
| fenn | in a large percentage of changes it will work | 20:37 |
| fenn | it's not magic | 20:37 |
| fenn | i.e. it wont re-base semantic changes | 20:38 |
| kanzure | http://neuralensemble.org/ | 20:41 |
| kanzure | "Increasingly, the real limit on what computational scientists can accomplish is how quickly and reliably they can translate their ideas into working code." | 20:41 |
| kanzure | Gregory V. Wilson | 20:41 |
| fenn | i wonder when that was written | 20:43 |
| kanzure | http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/48548?&print=yes | 20:43 |
| kanzure | 2006 | 20:43 |
| kanzure | 'I therefore started asking scientists how they wrote their programs. The answers were sobering. Whereas a few knew more than most of the commercial software developers I'd worked with, the overwhelming majority were still using ancient text editors like Vi and Notepad, sharing files with colleagues by emailing them around and testing by, well, actually, not testing their programs systematically at all.' | 20:44 |
| kanzure | 'I finally asked a friend who was pursuing a doctorate in particle physics why he insisted on doing everything the hard way. Why not use an integrated development environment with a symbolic debugger? Why not write unit tests? Why not use a version-control system? His answer was, "What's a version-control system?"' | 20:44 |
| kanzure | hahah | 20:44 |
| fenn | hm i think i've read the 'computational literacy' project that guy started | 20:45 |
| fenn | its like, programming for scientists | 20:45 |
| kanzure | ' | 20:45 |
| kanzure | My friend was intelligent and intimately familiar with the problems of writing large programs—he had inherited more than 100,000 lines of computer code and had already added 20,000 more. Discovering that he didn't even know what version control meant was like finding a chemist who didn't realize she needed to clean her test tubes between experiments. It wasn't a happy conversation for him either. Halfway through my explanation, | 20:45 |
| kanzure | ah, good | 20:45 |
| kanzure | because that's retarded | 20:45 |
| kanzure | somebody writing 100k lines of code and not knowing about rcs? | 20:45 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_V._Wilson | 20:47 |
| kanzure | Oram, Andy & Wilson, Gregory V. (2007), Beautiful Code: Leading Programmers Explain How They Think, O'Reilly Media, Inc., ISBN 978-0596510046 | 20:48 |
| fenn | oh look, a reference to some dead tree | 20:48 |
| fenn | how quaint | 20:48 |
| fenn | the whole 'comutational scientist' thing just screams 'anachronism' | 20:49 |
| kanzure | I think the problem is this: | 20:49 |
| fenn | ah right, software carpentry | 20:50 |
| kanzure | rapid advancements on the edge, versus the tendency to 'preserve integrity' of the already established Scientific Institutions and The Way | 20:50 |
| fenn | My Way or the High Way | 20:50 |
| kanzure | unfortunately, 'My Way' is usually also some highway like road infrastructure | 20:51 |
| kanzure | with predetermined destination | 20:51 |
| fenn | software carpentry is actually pretty good | 20:52 |
| kanzure | hm? | 20:52 |
| kanzure | explain what you're on about ? | 20:52 |
| fenn | http://swc.scipy.org/ | 20:52 |
| fenn | the result of g. wilson's "shocking revelation" | 20:53 |
| fenn | kinda makes you wonder just what they're teaching in schools | 20:53 |
| kanzure | how to bend over. | 20:54 |
| fenn | LOL "Knowing how to read code is as useful as knowing how to read a proof" | 20:55 |
| kanzure | why is that funny | 20:55 |
| fenn | sorry, it's only funny if you dont believe in proofs | 20:55 |
| fenn | see, the difference between code and proofs is that code actually does something | 20:56 |
| kanzure | eh, | 20:56 |
| kanzure | sort of | 20:56 |
| fenn | oh come on, math theorems that cite proofs are just doing a glorified include statement | 20:56 |
| kanzure | it's s/proof/ with ... koan, theorem, poem, something that is itself not solvable, but somehow allows you to work over it so that you can figure out some new context | 20:56 |
| kanzure | or whatever | 20:57 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:57 |
| kanzure | the real difference, I think | 20:57 |
| kanzure | is that the 'advanced' mathematics theorems are more like code that hasn't been written yet | 20:57 |
| kanzure | it's formalized pseudocode or something | 20:57 |
| kanzure | some of the ancient recursion examples with series for example | 20:57 |
| kanzure | they didn't have code to write | 20:57 |
| kanzure | so instead they had that formalized system | 20:57 |
| kanzure | and locked it in via education, | 20:57 |
| fenn | yes | 20:57 |
| kanzure | but now that we can do it in code, I suggest we stop doing it | 20:57 |
| kanzure | teaching it, I mean | 20:58 |
| fenn | and the syntax is horrible, unfortunately | 20:58 |
| kanzure | tell them about it, sure,but show the equivalency | 20:58 |
| kanzure | and show how the machine is able to do this | 20:58 |
| kanzure | it's quite formalized. | 20:58 |
| kanzure | and *grounded* | 20:58 |
| kanzure | re: symbol grounding | 20:58 |
| kanzure | this is a recent insight that I've been toying with | 20:58 |
| kanzure | the symbol grounding problem in ai isn't ai-specific | 20:58 |
| fenn | math is grounded? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | it's completely relevant to all humans - we're a walking, talking example of symbol grounding | 20:58 |
| kanzure | math is grounded in *us* | 20:59 |
| kanzure | in mathematicians | 20:59 |
| * fenn looks around for a number | 20:59 | |
| kanzure | or people becoming mathematicians | 20:59 |
| fenn | i dont see any numbers | 20:59 |
| kanzure | math has a social context | 20:59 |
| kanzure | I don't mean to say that math is ideological | 20:59 |
| kanzure | but that math is a formalization and is grounded in society | 20:59 |
| kanzure | this formalization isn't Of The Divine Void | 20:59 |
| fenn | it's very hard to convince some people of that | 21:00 |
| kanzure | do you agree with it, though? | 21:00 |
| fenn | yes of course | 21:00 |
| kanzure | blah | 21:01 |
| kanzure | this is just the basic strand of thought re: the need for skdb and so on | 21:01 |
| fenn | i think the whole symbol grounding thing has to do with perception and procedural learning | 21:02 |
| fenn | if you can take a basket of apples and count them, there's a number. if your culture just says 'many' then there is no number | 21:02 |
| kanzure | right, because counting and numbering are mental processes, physically grounded in your brain circuits that you develop to solve problems | 21:03 |
| kanzure | usually problems that teachers present to you in, in the case of school; or on your own when you sit down to focus on a problem | 21:03 |
| fenn | counting is an application of generalization | 21:04 |
| fenn | you dont learn generalization in school | 21:04 |
| fenn | generalization is taking all the lumpy green and red things in front of you and realizing they are all the same abstract class | 21:05 |
| kanzure | OOPism is the dark side, it leads to stuff like string theory | 21:06 |
| kanzure | and then my Holy Ai Church that I was developing ... erm. | 21:06 |
| fenn | is an apple not an apple? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | no, truly it is not | 21:06 |
| fenn | then you refute number theory too? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | an apple is *physically there* | 21:06 |
| kanzure | you can go touch it, eat it, and I can't possibly elaborate all of the possible interactions with the apple | 21:07 |
| fenn | you can do that with any other apple | 21:07 |
| fenn | (unless it's an apple that looks like jesus) | 21:07 |
| kanzure | so if the apple has jesus mapped on it | 21:07 |
| kanzure | it is therefore not an apple now? | 21:07 |
| kanzure | what the hell type of reasoning is that? :-) | 21:08 |
| fenn | it's a special case apple | 21:08 |
| fenn | you can do extra things with it, like sell it on ebay | 21:08 |
| kanzure | I am more a programmer; more interested in processes, not 'object orientation'. I can't link you to how I jumped out of OOPism in my development, so I can't cite the full philosophical arguments, but I'll think about it so that I can describe the inherent problems in OOPism to you. | 21:10 |
| fenn | yeah it's limiting but it's easy | 21:11 |
| fenn | c++ made a lot of stupid mistakes that make things hard | 21:11 |
| kanzure | no, I don't even mean C++ | 21:11 |
| fenn | well, a lot of what goes in the definition of "oop" is from languages like C++ and java | 21:11 |
| kanzure | Ah, well, that's not what I am talking about | 21:12 |
| fenn | ok | 21:12 |
| fenn | maybe it's better to define what you mean then | 21:12 |
| kanzure | OOPism, to me, is the philosophy of objects out there in the world, that all have these 'classes' inherent to them, they are of Some Type, and they are all intricately related to, aha. I just remembered a diagram I made back in 2004 to describe my Holy Ai system. | 21:12 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/diagrams/arrow_of_time_system3.JPG | 21:13 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:13 |
| fenn | did you watch the geoff hinton video? | 21:13 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/projects/aot_system/arrow_of_time_system3.JPG | 21:13 |
| kanzure | no, not yet | 21:13 |
| fenn | heh so your ai will be done in a couple billion years by that timeline :) | 21:13 |
| kanzure | 'Objects' just aren't true. Don't see it as an apple, but rather the seed of a tree, as the Salthe-ecological gravitational thermo complex that is aggregating materials into that redness/greenness, an attempt in mutation history towards evolvability in whatever environment that tree was competing in etc. | 21:15 |
| kanzure | erm, that uses way too many loosely used terms; | 21:15 |
| fenn | well the reason i brought up geoff hinton is his self-programmed algorithms cluster raw data into regions automatically | 21:15 |
| kanzure | matter/energy signals, processes, not objects | 21:15 |
| fenn | they arent equivalent, but they are in discrete clumps | 21:16 |
| kanzure | think of the galaxies as a matter/energy processing system | 21:16 |
| kanzure | an 'ecology' | 21:16 |
| fenn | ok, so an apple is a process | 21:16 |
| kanzure | right, so we have our biologists go out there and attempt to classify them or whatever | 21:16 |
| fenn | i'm sure you'll get uppity about my use of the term "is" | 21:16 |
| kanzure | good luck with that whole 'tree of life' thing | 21:16 |
| kanzure | but I really like those trees of course, they are interesting | 21:17 |
| fenn | i think it's just english language bias (sapir-whorf) | 21:18 |
| kanzure | the point isn't to find a 'true tree of life' - that sort of information is very, very hard to find from evolutionary history, without self-documenting organisms of course | 21:18 |
| kanzure | sapir-whorf was even cited in my intro to speech class, the state mandated class in high school | 21:18 |
| fenn | the point isnt to recover the version history? | 21:19 |
| fenn | oh, well.. taxonomy is different from phylogeny | 21:19 |
| fenn | (i think taxonomy is bullshit) | 21:19 |
| kanzure | 'version history' would be great -- too bad the biosphere didn't spawn with 'git' installed by default | 21:19 |
| kanzure | but anyway, we're getting off track here | 21:20 |
| kanzure | while you might be a process that is defined by who your ancestors are, your environment also influences you to some extent, no? Are we to track all contexts that have ever existed? | 21:20 |
| kanzure | sometimes I find myself imagining going on this very big quest | 21:20 |
| kanzure | to try to recover all of the data | 21:20 |
| kanzure | that could help me figure out the 'original state' | 21:20 |
| kanzure | the seed data that spawned the universe | 21:20 |
| kanzure | the idea is that the universe is stochastic, thus why we have entropy and so on | 21:21 |
| kanzure | (entropy is just "energy not used" and unnecessary noise etc.) | 21:21 |
| kanzure | so if I could go sample enough data and figure out the original state, then maybe we could simulate specific aspects or something | 21:21 |
| kanzure | but I don't really place much on this idea any more | 21:21 |
| fenn | doesnt stochastic mean non-predictable? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | no? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | stochastic != random | 21:22 |
| fenn | somewhere between random and deterministic | 21:22 |
| kanzure | deterministic rules with random seed | 21:22 |
| fenn | random seed is a computer thing | 21:22 |
| fenn | because they didnt have hardware RN generators | 21:22 |
| fenn | its a way to make a deterministic system appear random | 21:23 |
| fenn | s/random/stochastic/ | 21:23 |
| fenn | i think its just another way of saying 'probabilistic' | 21:24 |
| kanzure | hm, I have an idea | 21:24 |
| kanzure | NG: Would it be accurate to say that a good deal of the thematic burden of the Neverness novels, especially The Wild and War in Heaven, is the necessity that we prefer our actual, physical environment over virtual realities, no matter how beguiling? | 21:25 |
| kanzure | DZ: I would say that is exactly true. And more, I would say that the so-called virtual realities are misnamed: they should be called something like | 21:25 |
| kanzure | "simulated experiences." Because they aren't real, and can never be so, any more than a map can be the territory. And more, for the same reason that a map is necessarily less detailed | 21:25 |
| kanzure | than the territory that it describes, a virtual reality can only ever be a pale shadow of the real thing. | 21:25 |
| kanzure | Such constructs might prove amusing, or even useful and illuminating, but how could they ever take the place of the essential reality that they represent? | 21:25 |
| fenn | eh, i guess | 21:26 |
| kanzure | oh, btw, | 21:26 |
| kanzure | the guys in #git recommend *against* partial downloading of git repos | 21:26 |
| fenn | yeah i know | 21:27 |
| kanzure | so then. the whole idea of agx-get only getting parts of an skdb file is a bad idea, it seems | 21:27 |
| kanzure | unless skdb files != their own git repos. | 21:27 |
| fenn | that might work, but it neglects relationships between package | 21:27 |
| fenn | packages* | 21:27 |
| kanzure | how so? | 21:27 |
| fenn | say package A v1.0 only works with package B version 1.2 | 21:28 |
| kanzure | so? the metadata for A would say that | 21:28 |
| fenn | right | 21:28 |
| kanzure | we're talking about whether or not the dot skdb file is secretly a dot git | 21:28 |
| kanzure | and now we're just saying it's secretly a dir or secretly a dot tar | 21:28 |
| kanzure | I guess this is okay | 21:28 |
| kanzure | doesn't change much. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | makes it easier actually | 21:28 |
| fenn | do users really need to get the whole devel history? | 21:28 |
| kanzure | nope, they just want the current skdb package | 21:29 |
| kanzure | and if they want to make modifications or something, go right ahead | 21:29 |
| kanzure | but you might have to merge with an old branch or something | 21:29 |
| fenn | i think it makes sense to have the whole SKDB in one big git repo | 21:29 |
| fenn | then you can track where someone copied code from your module and modified it | 21:29 |
| kanzure | but you can't have gits within git | 21:29 |
| fenn | then you update your module, you can say 'hey better fix those other modules too' | 21:30 |
| kanzure | and you can't easily partially git a part of that 'global git SKDB' | 21:30 |
| kanzure | so everybody everywhere has to download the full thing | 21:30 |
| kanzure | nah, I think it's okay to make this an aggregation layer | 21:30 |
| kanzure | we're fine, nothing is different | 21:30 |
| kanzure | I'm just stalling | 21:31 |
| kanzure | so that I don't have to ALT+TAB over to the window with the python code | 21:31 |
| fenn | you can download single files from a git repo easy enough | 21:31 |
| fenn | heh | 21:31 |
| fenn | procrastination is my favorite pastime | 21:31 |
| kanzure | I think I'm quoted on wikiquotes re: procrastination | 21:31 |
| kanzure | you can procrastinate later or something | 21:31 |
| fenn | so you associate OOP with neurotypical "windowpane" mentality | 21:39 |
| kanzure | well, yes, but I didn't think of it like that before | 21:39 |
| kanzure | but I'm confident that yes lots of 'neurotypical' dopamine addicts like OOPism | 21:40 |
| fenn | makes sense | 21:41 |
| kanzure | but the thing is that even I loved OOPism | 21:41 |
| kanzure | for years ... so. | 21:41 |
| fenn | oh, that was the original point of reciprocality.org | 21:41 |
| kanzure | mappers v. packers | 21:41 |
| kanzure | or something | 21:41 |
| fenn | he was a program-management consultant | 21:41 |
| kanzure | "This project began as a bit of practical industrial psychology, and ended up unfolding into an understanding of how most people in most human societies have a consistently distorted view of everything. Not everyone is caught in the confusion, and as the picture emerged, | 21:43 |
| kanzure | an alternative model of relationships between observable phenomena that seems to be experienced by creative programmers in software engineering, star diagnosticians in medicine, great physicists and mathematicians, so-called ADHD children, people who "Know Quality" in industry, | 21:43 |
| kanzure | poets, painters, sculptors and mystics became describable - but only in its own terms. The alternative picture is wholly rational, but not reductionistic. Best of all, it is scientifically grounded and experimentally testable. If the experiments fail we can junk it. If they work, we've learned something important. " - Alan G Carter | 21:43 |
| fenn | see, the problem is that not 'blackboxing' stuff by putting it into categories, means you have to _think_ which is actually _hard_ | 21:44 |
| kanzure | blackboxing doesn't require categories per-se, | 21:45 |
| kanzure | blackboxing is about blackboxing functionality | 21:45 |
| kanzure | not about blackboxing objects (layering etc.) | 21:45 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20060427111402/www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/add.html | 21:45 |
| fenn | i wonder whats up with the website.. why dont they just redirect to one of the many mirrors | 21:46 |
| kanzure | ' This was at variance with usual thinking in the field, which holds that most people are simply useless by nature. ' haha :-) And for good reason too :-) | 21:46 |
| kanzure | ' It seemed to me more likely that everyone was born a mapper, but somehow most people got "flipped" into the weaker packer mindset through social pressure. It seemed that packers were distressed by any reference - even implicit - to the mapper worldview. Yet this was a denied, neurotic kind of distress rather than an explicit disagreement about ideology.' | 21:47 |
| fenn | its funny that he falls into the trap of categorizing people as one thing or another (maybe ignoring some aspects of reality on purpose) | 21:49 |
| fenn | presumably he's thinking about a few specific people he knows | 21:50 |
| kanzure | right | 21:51 |
| kanzure | the categorization though is linked to neuroscience in terms of the dopamine inhibitors and cybernetic feedback theories | 21:51 |
| kanzure | but | 21:51 |
| fenn | this sorta reminds me of how its better for you to eat fresh vegetables, but it's actually _easier_ to get/store/trade dried beans and preserved food | 21:51 |
| kanzure | how so? | 21:52 |
| fenn | and so agriculturalists have taken over the world | 21:52 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:52 |
| fenn | because they grow food that can be preserved | 21:52 |
| fenn | obviously some preservation methods are better than others | 21:53 |
| kanzure | I'm trying to think of a way to address your issue with him classifying the people | 21:53 |
| kanzure | I think that in this case, he can classify people in that OOPist sense | 21:53 |
| kanzure | especially since he is proposing a method of converting people from one type to another | 21:53 |
| kanzure | he's talking with actually dealing with them | 21:53 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:53 |
| kanzure | something's wrong here | 21:53 |
| fenn | it's not just 'convert from one type to another' - thats whiteboard mentality | 21:54 |
| fenn | its about getting a person to see what's in front of them, to kick the self-boredom habit, and to figure out what they're doing | 21:54 |
| kanzure | right | 21:54 |
| kanzure | but "its funny that he falls into the trap of categorizing people as one thing or another" | 21:54 |
| fenn | but its easier to say 'we had a packer, made him a mapper' because there's less information being transmitted | 21:54 |
| kanzure | ah, I guess we can attribute that to the problems with writing | 21:55 |
| kanzure | that 'trap' is because he has to fall into that trap in order to write, methinks | 21:55 |
| kanzure | problems with writing -> self-expression stuff. "read what I meant, not what I said" | 21:55 |
| fenn | but see, the same data compression is going on in your head all the time. it's how you can remember 90 bazillion things in the first place | 21:55 |
| kanzure | re: perl monk motto "do what I mean, not what I say" | 21:55 |
| kanzure | sure, but it's a compression *process* | 21:56 |
| kanzure | it's feedback, systems, cybernetics. | 21:56 |
| kanzure | we're both meta like that, IMHO | 21:56 |
| fenn | i can run a simulation of your mental state and try to reconstruct what you meant, but i can never truly get what you actually meant (without a brain-pod connection) | 21:56 |
| fenn | interestingly enough, this problem is why i got into genetic engineering | 21:57 |
| kanzure | wait, brain-pod connection? | 21:57 |
| kanzure | pod? | 21:57 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:57 |
| fenn | bypass the difficulties of language by using a direct neural connection from one brain to another | 21:58 |
| kanzure | funny thing is that the brains will still have to learn to communicate or something | 21:58 |
| fenn | i'm not sure it would actually work, now that i know more about how brains work | 21:58 |
| fenn | you'd have to have nanites crawlin all over your neurons, able to transmit impulses (and connections diagrams?) from anywhere inside the brain | 21:59 |
| kanzure | maybe - possibly fMRI and rTMS could do it | 21:59 |
| kanzure | I've thought about those possibilities before, yeah | 21:59 |
| kanzure | also DNIs | 21:59 |
| fenn | nah those are too coarse | 21:59 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/neuro/ | 21:59 |
| kanzure | sure | 21:59 |
| fenn | get down to the sub-axon level maybe | 21:59 |
| kanzure | I'm not so interested in a DNI per se with another brain even | 22:00 |
| fenn | why not? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | but rather, there's a *ton* of information in the brain | 22:00 |
| kanzure | hehe, hold on a sec | 22:00 |
| kanzure | Markram in the vid was saying that he generates 1 TB of debug data per sec | 22:00 |
| fenn | big whoop | 22:00 |
| kanzure | don't you think we could do some interesting things when aggregating that? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | if we could tap into the information within our brain? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | not information like perceptions | 22:00 |
| fenn | sure, you could store your dreams, say what you actually meant | 22:00 |
| kanzure | (but maybe perceptions, if you can do that trick, heh) | 22:00 |
| kanzure | no, I mean like all of the 'entropy' | 22:01 |
| fenn | someone would have to do some "strange days" mind zap to really understand though | 22:01 |
| fenn | and they wouldnt have connections for all your concepts (without replicating your brain) | 22:01 |
| fenn | like, you might see something and start laughing (in the reconstructed simulation) but not know why it was funny because you didnt have the memory and associations | 22:01 |
| kanzure | perhaps we could find a way to insert new microcolumns, or have them interfaced to your more meta cognitive processes | 22:01 |
| kanzure | but this is far out there | 22:02 |
| fenn | you cant physically insert new microcolumns because they're so tightly interwoven | 22:02 |
| kanzure | mostly because I am not sure to what extent microcolumns are organized within the head, i.e., they do have some long-range connections, but do they need them? can they manage with just up-propagating connections and so on? aren't they supposed to be layered? | 22:02 |
| kanzure | etc. | 22:02 |
| kanzure | keep the new ones somewhere else | 22:02 |
| kanzure | brain in a jar | 22:02 |
| fenn | but you could 'logically' insert new connections with nanites sending packets | 22:03 |
| kanzure | nanites are a blackswan | 22:03 |
| kanzure | avoid | 22:03 |
| fenn | whatever | 22:03 |
| fenn | use TMS | 22:03 |
| kanzure | nanites are more of a blackswan than macroscale self-replicating machines ;-) | 22:03 |
| kanzure | yeah, TMS would be interesting to work with | 22:03 |
| kanzure | Ed does laser-guiding neuro growth too | 22:03 |
| kanzure | so in combination the two could be very interesting | 22:03 |
| kanzure | http://edboyden.org/ | 22:03 |
| fenn | use electrodes that you've poked into the brain tissue, disrupting a certain acceptable number of connections | 22:03 |
| kanzure | the idea is that you can use lasers to help specifically target axon/dendritic growth | 22:03 |
| fenn | i say nanites because i'd rather not have needles ripping up my brain | 22:04 |
| kanzure | have you seen my 3D mesh idea for brain engineering | 22:04 |
| fenn | no | 22:04 |
| fenn | btw nanites dont have to be self-repliating | 22:04 |
| fenn | think of it as a really small rfid tag | 22:05 |
| kanzure | giant MEA, except 3D; have brain grow *into* this area, thus when it's completely done you have this huge infrastructure for stimulation with electricity or neurochemicals (if you have some sort of fancy MEMS mechanical distribution network built into it) | 22:05 |
| fenn | i have no idea what you just said | 22:06 |
| fenn | what's an MEA? | 22:06 |
| kanzure | microelectrode array | 22:06 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brain_implants | 22:06 |
| fenn | ok, how do you get this into the brain without shredding all the connections? | 22:06 |
| kanzure | possibly without the last character | 22:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: "have brain grow into this area" | 22:06 |
| kanzure | tissue engineering - grow a new brain | 22:06 |
| kanzure | brain in a jar | 22:06 |
| fenn | brains dont generally grow except in infants | 22:06 |
| fenn | s/infant/embryo/ | 22:06 |
| kanzure | correct | 22:07 |
| kanzure | have you considered that we might be screwed? that our brains are ultimately intractable? we can try to prolong their lives, even interface with other systems, even try to scan in the physical connections, but the vascularization issues + nanotech blackswan stuff is a negatory | 22:07 |
| kanzure | I do not mean to say I am not optimistic and that I am not working towards solutions | 22:08 |
| fenn | um, yah i've considered it | 22:08 |
| kanzure | I mean that maybe our second generations can do something better | 22:08 |
| kanzure | so that maybe our 'copies' that we physically build, engineer from what we know, so that they might have a chance in a digital age or something blah blah blah | 22:08 |
| fenn | my solution was to make an 'improved human' though i didnt think of it as human at the time | 22:08 |
| kanzure | but really, beyond surface brain implants | 22:09 |
| kanzure | and trying to do nanotech, eh | 22:09 |
| fenn | it was a sort of living space station | 22:09 |
| fenn | but biological | 22:09 |
| kanzure | Zindell's moonbrain | 22:09 |
| fenn | but more than just a brain | 22:09 |
| kanzure | made out of 'neurologics' | 22:09 |
| fenn | thinking only gets you so far | 22:09 |
| fenn | you need craploads of sensors, manipulators, communication.. | 22:10 |
| fenn | what good is an eyeball in earth orbit? | 22:10 |
| fenn | or in the asteroid belt | 22:10 |
| kanzure | uhh | 22:10 |
| fenn | can hardly see anything without a telescope | 22:10 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:10 |
| kanzure | take a look at this | 22:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.mel.nist.gov/psl/ | 22:10 |
| kanzure | "For many years, the Manufacturing Systems Integration Division (MSID) has | 22:10 |
| kanzure | been involved in the definition of a neutral representation of product data, | 22:10 |
| kanzure | most recently realized through the STEP standard. With that effort well | 22:10 |
| kanzure | underway, another candidate area for a division focus is the representation | 22:10 |
| kanzure | of manufacturing process. Like product data, process data is also used | 22:10 |
| kanzure | throughout the life cycle of a product, from early indications of | 22:10 |
| kanzure | manufacturing process flagged during design, through process planning, | 22:10 |
| kanzure | validation, production scheduling and control. In addition, the notion of | 22:11 |
| kanzure | process also underlies the entire manufacturing cycle, coordinating the | 22:11 |
| kanzure | workflow within engineering and shop floor manufacturing. The Process | 22:11 |
| fenn | then *bam* you just got pulverized by a meteor going mach 200 | 22:11 |
| kanzure | Specification Language (PSL) defines a neutral representation for | 22:11 |
| kanzure | manufacturing processes that supports automated reasoning. Process data is | 22:11 |
| kanzure | used throughout the life cycle of a product, from early indications of | 22:11 |
| kanzure | manufacturing process flagged during design, through process planning, | 22:11 |
| kanzure | validation, production scheduling and control. In addition, the notion of | 22:11 |
| kanzure | process also underlies the entire manufacturing cycle, coordinating the | 22:11 |
| kanzure | workflow within engineering and shop floor manufacturing." | 22:11 |
| kanzure | And: | 22:11 |
| kanzure | http://www.mel.nist.gov/psl/ontology.html | 22:11 |
| kanzure | http://www.mel.nist.gov/psl/ontology.html | 22:11 |
| kanzure | "The purpose of PSL-Core is to axiomatise a set of intuitive semantic | 22:11 |
| kanzure | primitives that is adequate for describing the fundamental concepts of | 22:11 |
| kanzure | manufacturing processes. Consequently, this characterization of basic | 22:11 |
| kanzure | processes makes few assumptions about their nature beyond what is needed for | 22:11 |
| kanzure | describing those processes, and the Core is therefore rather weak in terms | 22:11 |
| kanzure | of logical expressiveness. In particular, PSL-Core is not strong enough to | 22:11 |
| kanzure | provide definitions of the many auxiliary notions that become necessary to | 22:11 |
| kanzure | describe all intuitions about manufacturing processes." | 22:11 |
| fenn | yeah yeah it sounds great until you have to actually deal with it | 22:11 |
| fenn | i'm glad they're working on it, but based on my experience with STEP i dont have high hopes | 22:12 |
| kanzure | if they're working on it, then we can eventually approach them | 22:12 |
| kanzure | Also, even more serious: | 22:12 |
| kanzure | http://www.mfgquote.com/ | 22:12 |
| kanzure | "MFG.com is an online marketplace that saves you time and money by instantly | 22:12 |
| kanzure | matching a buyer's drawings and specifications to qualified suppliers. No | 22:12 |
| kanzure | more searching or worrying." | 22:12 |
| kanzure | huh | 22:12 |
| kanzure | interesting | 22:12 |
| fenn | yeah very cool | 22:12 |
| fenn | i wonder how they do quality control | 22:13 |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-155-121.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:13 | |
| kanzure | I wonder how they do it at all ... | 22:14 |
| * kanzure goes to find dinner | 22:14 | |
| fenn | people look at it, bid on the job | 22:14 |
| fenn | its like ebay (or rentacoder.com really) | 22:15 |
| kanzure | oh, it sounded like it could match specs to supplies | 22:48 |
| kanzure | utomatically | 22:48 |
| kanzure | because they say 'instantly' | 22:48 |
| kanzure | I guess they mean something else ;-) | 22:48 |
| fenn | instantly is relative.. usually this process takes weeks or months | 22:53 |
| kanzure | I was hoping they may have had our agx-make GA jig-puzzle piece | 22:58 |
| kanzure | guess not :-) - they are more social in nature, although a social equivalent wouldn't be a bad idea actually | 22:58 |
| kanzure | hmm | 22:58 |
| kanzure | (momentary) 'experience' is a signal | 22:59 |
| kanzure | to the brain. | 22:59 |
| kanzure | a very massive, parallel signal of course | 22:59 |
| kanzure | but nevertheless, to the brain it is still a signal; it seems to be a matter of letting certain experiences manage how the brain is to cope with 'experience' but what's the selection process for this? | 22:59 |
| fenn | because experience is intertwingled with your current brain state | 23:08 |
| kanzure | hm, scenemusic is playing "Cyborg Jeff - HTML Quest" | 23:10 |
| fenn | i'm re-thinking my possession by multiple spirits in high school as a breakdown in communication between different areas of my brain | 23:12 |
| fenn | i thought my soul had left my body and then started attracting various visiting spirits | 23:13 |
| fenn | there was a dog, a fox-woman, a snake-lizard-futuresoldier, and an arab mathematician | 23:14 |
| kanzure | breakdown? | 23:14 |
| kanzure | how serious was this? | 23:15 |
| fenn | it wasn't very apparent at all, actually | 23:15 |
| kanzure | brb | 23:15 |
| fenn | actually it must have been in middle school, because the arab taught me spanish | 23:19 |
| fenn | there should be a name-origin wiki | 23:20 |
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