| --- Day changed Sun Apr 27 2008 | ||
| kanzure | http://advogato.org/article/972.html | 00:43 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | debian distribution project | 00:43 |
| kanzure | As part of the Tech Fusion Outline Series, this article describes some additions to the Debian Distribution model which, if implemented, would have the benefits of making Debian, the Debian Development and deployment entirely independent of Server-based Infrastructure. | 00:43 |
| kanzure | 'At the last major upgrade of Debian/Stable, all the routers at the major International fibreoptic backbone sites across the world redlined for a week.' | 00:44 |
| kanzure | 'This isn't all: there are mailing lists (the statistics show almost 30,000 people on each of the announce and security lists, alone),' | 00:45 |
| kanzure | these are impressive numbers | 00:45 |
| kanzure | 'The point is: even with Debtorrent installed on every single debian system in existence, there's still a large dependency on the single-point-of-failure mirrors, through which the verification and amalgamation of the information that you see (Contents and Packages) must be "funnelled". Along with the Packages themselves, the source code and the ".dsc" file - the GPG-signed guarantee that the source code and packages have not been | 00:47 |
| fenn | gittorrent is such an obvious and easy idea i wonder why i hadnt thought of it | 00:56 |
| fenn | it's also a funny mental picture.. a never-ending torrent of gits | 00:58 |
| -!- NahtanoJ88 [i=user@102.sub-75-211-179.myvzw.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 01:48 | |
| -!- NahtanoJ88 is now known as nahtanoj | 01:48 | |
| -!- nahtanoj is now known as nahtanoj88 | 01:49 | |
| kanzure | Hey nahtanoj88. :-) | 01:49 |
| nahtanoj88 | Heya kanzure | 01:49 |
| * kanzure was just reading about the Texas raid | 01:49 | |
| nahtanoj88 | oh? | 01:49 |
| -!- nahtanoj88 is now known as NahtanoJ88 | 01:49 | |
| kanzure | http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89498037 | 01:52 |
| fenn | looks like a tank to me | 01:53 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Oh I guess I didn't realize that raid was in texas. | 01:53 |
| kanzure | I can't make up my mind on 'sexual abuse' - what happens when they can genetically engineer 'sacks of flesh' to replace their children ? | 01:55 |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-155-121.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 01:55 | |
| NahtanoJ88 | I think that would not count as 'sexual abuse' or even animal abuse sense their would presumably be a lack of a thought process and just count as a sexual aid. | 01:57 |
| fenn | The armored car was precautionary and designed to remove someone from the property, not to force entry onto the ranch, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24141460/ | 01:58 |
| fenn | now, who you gonna believe? | 01:58 |
| fenn | havent you guys read any heinlein? | 01:58 |
| kanzure | yes | 01:58 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Yea | 01:59 |
| * NahtanoJ88 is a ran of "Orphans of the Sky" and "Starship Troopers" | 02:01 | |
| NahtanoJ88 | ran=fan | 02:01 |
| kanzure | NahtanoJ88: Apparently 'sexual aid' was outlawed in Texas until only two years ago. | 02:02 |
| kanzure | So I'm just saying. I don't know what's going on. | 02:02 |
| kanzure | http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/us/14brfs-BANONSEXTOYS_BRF.html | 02:03 |
| fenn | NahtanoJ88: moon is a harsh mistress? stranger in a strange land? | 02:03 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Meh is just one of those weird things that happen that will be used to feel a timeline in the future. | 02:03 |
| kanzure | Haha, "leaving Alabama the only one with such laws." | 02:03 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I'm not sure if i read the moon is a harsh mistress but I know I haven't read stranger in a strange land. | 02:04 |
| kanzure | Anyway, would people go wild because you're using 'sacks of flesh'? I mean, look at how much goes into the stem cell debates. It's a weird question to ask, yes, but it's just exploiting lots of misconceptions and so on. | 02:04 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Their would be a market for it regardless. | 02:05 |
| fenn | the question is whether someone is being harmed or not | 02:05 |
| kanzure | that isn't the question | 02:05 |
| fenn | it'd be hard to argue that a sack of flesh can feel pain | 02:05 |
| kanzure | I've been harmed in school, but who the fuck has cared? | 02:05 |
| fenn | well, i care | 02:05 |
| kanzure | heh, thanks | 02:06 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I'll care to what happened? | 02:06 |
| fenn | a majority of people dont think you've been harmed though | 02:06 |
| kanzure | so that means I didn't get harmed ? | 02:06 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 02:06 |
| fenn | no | 02:06 |
| kanzure | majority rules, hurray | 02:06 |
| fenn | it just means they dont care | 02:06 |
| kanzure | so if intervention requires caring, then I doubt the system is stable | 02:06 |
| fenn | and if say, me, tries to intervene, they'll show up with a fucking tank, claiming its for your own protection | 02:06 |
| NahtanoJ88 | no system is perfect some are just better then others. | 02:07 |
| fenn | and btw, legally, the US is not a democracy, it's a representative republic | 02:07 |
| kanzure | Anyway, I'm trying to figure out if I would opt to help out those kids on the ranch if they are, in fact, being abused; I think I would, at this point, simply because those kids don't have many options otherwise (scarcity-centric) -- if we had self-replicating machines that we could sneak in to them, we'd let them do whatever they want. | 02:07 |
| fenn | so "majority rules" is just a convenient lie | 02:07 |
| fenn | how do you explain the state separating kids from their own mothers? | 02:08 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Its more like the 'majority of power rules' | 02:08 |
| fenn | they pulled a switcheroo with buses and sent them to different cities | 02:09 |
| fenn | how the fuck is that helping the children in any way | 02:09 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Probably isn't at all. | 02:09 |
| NahtanoJ88 | The kids are probably freaked out not knowing wtf is going on. | 02:09 |
| kanzure | fenn: Are they there to help the children, or to cover their ass? | 02:09 |
| fenn | who? | 02:10 |
| NahtanoJ88 | probably cover their asses I'm sure they found out some high ranking officials were apart of that little community. | 02:10 |
| kanzure | Child Protective Services | 02:10 |
| kanzure | I wonder what Dawkins is thinking: "Yes, tank into the churches, yes yes yes" ? | 02:11 |
| kanzure | :/ | 02:11 |
| kanzure | Bah, this system sucks. /me goes to write some python | 02:11 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Oh you said you were hopeing to get some codeing done this weekend were you writing in python? | 02:12 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-04-26 | 02:13 |
| kanzure | yep | 02:13 |
| kanzure | for some reason I was writing in pseudocode instead of python | 02:13 |
| kanzure | I have a strong urge to just hack out some perl, but I'm trying to force myself to do python | 02:13 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Oh kanzure what ever happened to grak and 7k? | 02:14 |
| kanzure | but I'm getting "stuck" - not stuck on anything in particular, so it's a weird kind of stuck. | 02:14 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Why python though? | 02:14 |
| kanzure | NahtanoJ88: Python because fenn said so, and some other good reasons that I am forgetting | 02:14 |
| * NahtanoJ88 really doesn't like programming in python. | 02:14 | |
| fenn | because it's easy to learn, extremely powerful, and has a wide array of well supported libraries and bindings | 02:14 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Its to much like java which I also dispise. | 02:14 |
| kanzure | those are good reasons | 02:14 |
| fenn | why do you say it's like java? | 02:15 |
| kanzure | NahtanoJ88: So, grak turned into this massive MMORPG based too much on OOPism; 7k had a few working demos, but I have lost most if not all of the source code over the years, yeah. | 02:15 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Because in my last programming class we had to choose if we wanted to program in Java or Python and as a resault I ended up seeing the source code for both languages side by side and grew to dislike both. | 02:16 |
| fenn | hmm.. well no wonder | 02:16 |
| kanzure | Taking classes is the wrong way to go about it. | 02:16 |
| fenn | they probably just translated all the java code into python | 02:16 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I'm going towards a computer science degree and the class is required. | 02:16 |
| * kanzure would take python over java any day :-) | 02:16 | |
| fenn | see, python can represent just about any language, but some things are more 'pythonic' than others | 02:16 |
| fenn | language isnt the right word.. language feature? | 02:17 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I still have the graphics for 7k and some for grak to by the way. | 02:17 |
| NahtanoJ88 | What is your favorite programming language? | 02:18 |
| kanzure | whatever gets the job done | 02:18 |
| fenn | um, python of course.. i assume kanzure prefers perl | 02:19 |
| kanzure | not sure about that | 02:19 |
| fenn | i can see the value of C and Lisp though | 02:19 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I just mean from a personal stand point. | 02:19 |
| kanzure | yes, even from that POV | 02:19 |
| NahtanoJ88 | This will make you cringe but I have to say Visual Basic.net | 02:20 |
| fenn | i've never used visual basic.. | 02:21 |
| kanzure | I did. What are you smoking? | 02:21 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I don't know I just like it though. | 02:21 |
| kanzure | Have you ever been introduced to the open source community? | 02:21 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I have. | 02:21 |
| fenn | hello, i'm from the open source community, nice to meet ya | 02:21 |
| kanzure | So ... | 02:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, seriously, some people need to be told where linux is located on the net | 02:22 |
| kanzure | instead of being some amorphous entity that people keep on mentioning | 02:22 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I didn't say it was the best I just said I like it. | 02:22 |
| fenn | it's at kernel.org! | 02:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: yep | 02:22 |
| * fenn always wondered why not linux.org, but oh well | 02:22 | |
| kanzure | because they are there to work on the kernel, not the 'name' | 02:22 |
| kanzure | supposedly. | 02:22 |
| fenn | um... but it's linux, not "all free kernels in existence" | 02:23 |
| kanzure | hm | 02:23 |
| fenn | i mean, herd development isnt on kernel.org | 02:23 |
| kanzure | beats me. | 02:23 |
| NahtanoJ88 | The only linux I've played with is fedora core. | 02:23 |
| fenn | omfg they even manage to get it wrong on linux.org, front page first sentence: Linux is a free Unix-type operating system originally created by Linus Torvalds with the assistance of developers around the world. | 02:23 |
| kanzure | hm | 02:24 |
| kanzure | originally created completely by Linus, for one | 02:24 |
| kanzure | Unix-type smells wrong | 02:24 |
| kanzure | free smells wrong too, but it might be okay | 02:24 |
| fenn | linux is a kernel, not an operating system! | 02:24 |
| kanzure | interesting | 02:25 |
| * fenn sighs | 02:25 | |
| kanzure | I don't think linux.org is the main 'gateway portal' | 02:25 |
| kanzure | there's no official indoctrination infrastructure | 02:25 |
| kanzure | except maybe through kde, interestingly enough | 02:25 |
| kanzure | they have a very massive team last I checked | 02:25 |
| fenn | http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html <- explanation of the difference | 02:26 |
| kanzure | right | 02:26 |
| fenn | i never bothered to figure out exactly how kde works | 02:26 |
| fenn | if konqueror werent the only medium-weight browser out there, i probably wouldnt use it at all | 02:27 |
| fenn | (where dillo is light, and firefox is heavy) but believe it or not firefox claims to be a "light-weight web browser" | 02:27 |
| NahtanoJ88 | It was during the first versions. | 02:28 |
| fenn | no, it never was | 02:28 |
| fenn | netscape was always a heavy browser | 02:28 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I wasn't refering to netscape. | 02:29 |
| kanzure | wtf, firefox is "light-weight" ? heh | 02:29 |
| fenn | then it got too heavy and they split 'netscape communicator' off into different products | 02:29 |
| kanzure | btw, I think my video in /shots/ on my server most definitely shows firefox's problems | 02:29 |
| kanzure | I don't care about their memory problem, simply loading pages is a problem, | 02:29 |
| kanzure | here's what it does | 02:29 |
| fenn | NahtanoJ88: netscape release their code as mozilla, which got rebranded as firefox | 02:29 |
| kanzure | I had a program that automatically scrolss through pages | 02:29 |
| kanzure | *scrolls | 02:29 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I didn't know that fenn. | 02:30 |
| kanzure | I then typed in a number and it would pop up on screen (so that I could show the viewers what I was doing) | 02:30 |
| kanzure | and then it would pop up that search result from Google on to a background tab | 02:30 |
| kanzure | and continue scrolling | 02:30 |
| kanzure | the scrolling would *halt* while the tab loaded | 02:30 |
| kanzure | and it became very jittery and buggy etc. | 02:30 |
| kanzure | if that's not a good visualization of Firefox's problems, then I don't know what is. | 02:30 |
| fenn | well, new tabs are running in the same process right? | 02:30 |
| fenn | so if that tab consumes cpu the other tabs will suffer | 02:31 |
| fenn | (wild-ass guess) | 02:31 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Sounds good though. | 02:31 |
| fenn | We made a list of the programs needed to make a complete free system, and we systematically found, wrote, or found people to write everything on the list. | 02:32 |
| fenn | how do we keep some cheeky bugger from coming along at the last minute and stealing the show? | 02:32 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I just read that as you posted it. | 02:32 |
| fenn | "look, i invented replicators! i just used some code these dimwits provided at autogenix.org... and the rest is history" | 02:32 |
| kanzure | stealing the show? | 02:33 |
| fenn | yeah, indeed | 02:33 |
| kanzure | who cares? | 02:33 |
| NahtanoJ88 | It could happen but I think that they would have to be quite involved to just steal it. | 02:33 |
| kanzure | as long as we can use them | 02:33 |
| fenn | i care, because it distorts history when people think that linux wrote an operating system | 02:33 |
| fenn | its like people think xerox invented the GUI and the mouse | 02:33 |
| kanzure | what's the real story? | 02:34 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Well who invented the GUI then? | 02:34 |
| kanzure | that Xerox story is cited everywhere | 02:34 |
| fenn | engelbart invented the mouse, i'm not sure if you can call his system a gui or not | 02:34 |
| fenn | it's point and click | 02:34 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I don't think that counts as a gui. | 02:34 |
| kanzure | point and click is technically gui | 02:34 |
| fenn | NahtanoJ88: you know what i'm talking about? | 02:34 |
| fenn | on-line system? | 02:35 |
| NahtanoJ88 | I think we are on the same page but I could be thinking about a different person. | 02:35 |
| fenn | or that the hindenberg blew up because it had hydrogen in it | 02:36 |
| kanzure | hahah | 02:37 |
| kanzure | therefore I should blow up too, for breathing | 02:37 |
| fenn | Not surprisingly though, the origins of the multi-windowed GUI can really be traced back to Douglas Engelbart. Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center, Inc. got some employees from Stanford Research Institute's Augmentation Research Center which was setup by Douglas Engelbart when Engelbart's funding from DARPA, NASA, and the US Air Force began to disappear. | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:34:04) schiv: hi what's the difference between "from foo import *" and "import foo"? | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:34:35) verte: life and death. | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:35:15) verte: from foo import * brings dishonour to your family. | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:38:07) kosh: from foo import * also causes the next person to maintain the code to hunt you down and educate you in the ways of a woodchipper | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:40:15) kanzure: verte: Perhaps we can go around as ninjas and samurai and slay pymonks who import from *? | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:40:28) kosh: kanzure: I prefer chainsaws | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:40:37) kosh: kanzure: it is more educational when others hear about it | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:40:38) kanzure: That's not elegant. | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:41:28) kosh: verte: I have lots of things at my disposal | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:41:39) kosh: fire is too quick for these kinds of things | 02:38 |
| kanzure | (2008-04-27 01:41:46) kosh: and not educational enough | 02:38 |
| fenn | i think that he already had the idea, but trying to do graphics on a computer made of relays would have been silly | 02:38 |
| fenn | the difference is from foo import * dumps everything in foo into the global namespace | 02:39 |
| fenn | NahtanoJ88: if you have an hour or so, watch this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734787622017763097 | 02:42 |
| NahtanoJ88 | Not tonight but I'll look at it later. | 02:42 |
| kanzure | fenn: we need to come up with a minimum metadata file; I am thinking of something like: the !! line, a line to specify a script (config stuff - for when running it as a plugin to agx-get when something else requires this object), anything else? Should there be any other requirements? Should we require it to have a DOI object id or something ? | 02:44 |
| fenn | why cant agx-get just run the script automatically? | 02:45 |
| fenn | i dont know what a DOI object id is | 02:45 |
| kanzure | for some reason apt-get has this weird debconf thing going on, it's for the interface difficulties or whatever that I mentioned | 02:45 |
| kanzure | http://www.doi.org/ | 02:45 |
| kanzure | digital object identifier system | 02:45 |
| kanzure | don't know about it though | 02:46 |
| fenn | is this the com.sun.java stuff? | 02:46 |
| kanzure | I don't think so ? | 02:46 |
| kanzure | not sure, this might not be contextually appropriate | 02:46 |
| fenn | no, i dont want to use anything with a (R) and Members Only | 02:46 |
| kanzure | aha | 02:46 |
| kanzure | yeah okay | 02:46 |
| fenn | yes standards should be consistent and unambiguous, but i dont want it to be carved in stone either | 02:47 |
| kanzure | so. | 02:47 |
| kanzure | right | 02:48 |
| kanzure | that's why we allow these objects to be updatable or whatever | 02:48 |
| kanzure | so we just need a basic metadata file | 02:48 |
| kanzure | with minimal requirements, but that still get the point across | 02:48 |
| kanzure | I think that we could theoretically do almost just two variables - a version number or identifier number, and then a pointer to the config script | 02:48 |
| kanzure | however | 02:48 |
| kanzure | we could get creative here and do something sort of smart ;-) | 02:48 |
| kanzure | for some people, this might be an introduction into the entire system | 02:48 |
| kanzure | so if we can structure this with that in mind, we can make it a smooth experience | 02:48 |
| kanzure | I don't mean "easy to use" but I don't mean "conflate it to make it purposefully complex" | 02:49 |
| kanzure | I mean to make it so that we make sure the people making these files, if they do it by hand, have at least a partial clue as to wtf is going on | 02:49 |
| kanzure | don't know if that's possible, or meaningful for that matter | 02:49 |
| fenn | my brain just stopped working, sorry | 02:50 |
| kanzure | can we demand 'units'? even if it's software? | 02:50 |
| kanzure | eh | 02:50 |
| kanzure | hm | 02:50 |
| fenn | i dont think version numbers for each code module referenced is out of line | 02:51 |
| fenn | after the !! tag | 02:51 |
| fenn | then in the "real" metadata you'd use the !! tag with a ! tag | 02:51 |
| fenn | so "import electricity2.0" will unambiguously work (i dont mean actually naming python modules with version numbers, just adding the version to the list of modules being used | 02:52 |
| fenn | and 2.0.1 will be back-compatible with 2.0.0 but 2.1.0 is not necessarily compatible | 02:53 |
| fenn | 3.0 is semantically incompatible | 02:53 |
| fenn | like, you'd have to re-read the manual | 02:53 |
| kanzure | right | 02:54 |
| kanzure | oh | 02:54 |
| kanzure | so specify version compatability history | 02:54 |
| kanzure | that would be an extra metadata object type to include in it though | 02:54 |
| kanzure | that could be something different, easily, and it should be | 02:54 |
| kanzure | we're talking about the most minimal unit here | 02:54 |
| fenn | it would be included with the code module you're referencing | 02:54 |
| kanzure | 'unit' in the sense of something that you use to build bigger and better things | 02:54 |
| kanzure | ah | 02:54 |
| kanzure | oh, the code is just for agx-get, the electricity stuff is something else methinks :-) | 02:55 |
| kanzure | the code for the 'pointer' that I mentioned, I mean | 02:55 |
| fenn | generally a simple rule like x.x.y are compatible is better than a lot of explicit data with arbitrary numbers | 02:55 |
| kanzure | Somebody compared me to Erdos earlier tonight. | 02:55 |
| kanzure | Erdős, I mean. | 02:56 |
| fenn | ooo | 02:56 |
| fenn | i only know about him because of that stupid erdos number thing | 02:56 |
| fenn | you're a small world network node? :) | 02:56 |
| fenn | i'll believe that | 02:57 |
| kanzure | I'd have to admit, though, that I am not "The Man Who Loved Only Numbers" - a good book that does his bio. | 02:58 |
| fenn | i think the version number would be a metadata format number | 02:58 |
| fenn | not which version of agx-get | 02:58 |
| kanzure | actually, why can't that be in !! | 02:58 |
| fenn | yeah, ok | 02:58 |
| fenn | <- still hasnt read yaml spec :) | 02:58 |
| kanzure | okay, so name of the package, primary source of the package? something like that | 02:59 |
| kanzure | nono | 02:59 |
| kanzure | not like that | 02:59 |
| kanzure | !! would work the same way, like !!this-object-thingy | 02:59 |
| kanzure | and so you would go grab that object, which has some functionality ini t | 02:59 |
| kanzure | and that one might specify something | 02:59 |
| kanzure | else back to this original one that we are making up here and now. | 02:59 |
| fenn | !!skdb-object/2.0 | 02:59 |
| kanzure | possibly | 02:59 |
| kanzure | I would opt against any decimals in naming, of course | 02:59 |
| kanzure | unless it's an ok thing to do | 02:59 |
| fenn | why? decimals are more recognizable as version numbers | 03:00 |
| kanzure | yeah, but I've never seen them in a class name before | 03:00 |
| fenn | oh, 2.0 is a data field? | 03:00 |
| fenn | not part of the object name | 03:00 |
| kanzure | it's part of the object name according to yaml specs | 03:00 |
| kanzure | anything after the !!, in general | 03:00 |
| kanzure | that was my understanding | 03:00 |
| fenn | ok, well, whatever | 03:00 |
| fenn | i dont care about the syntax unless it's the bulk of the file | 03:01 |
| kanzure | some other random ideas, please feel free to shoot them down as I go | 03:01 |
| kanzure | name of the package, simple description, pointer to larger description, pointer to a 'social metadata file' within the skdb package re: who to contact or mailing lists / forums / whatever web presence they have, | 03:01 |
| kanzure | can you think of cases where any of those would not be needed | 03:02 |
| fenn | hmm.. social metadata file can get outdated? | 03:03 |
| kanzure | not the file name of it | 03:03 |
| kanzure | it's just a pointer to it | 03:03 |
| kanzure | so in there it'd have another !! and whatever | 03:03 |
| fenn | ok, but the package wont be constantly updated will it? | 03:03 |
| kanzure | ideally you would keep that fresh | 03:03 |
| kanzure | oh | 03:03 |
| kanzure | well, at worst, you go to the Internet Archive | 03:03 |
| fenn | it's not that reliable, and no pictures or other data formats | 03:03 |
| kanzure | wouldn't the old data be possibly more useful than no data at all? | 03:04 |
| fenn | yes | 03:04 |
| kanzure | hm | 03:04 |
| kanzure | wait, no, this can all be added | 03:04 |
| fenn | ideally there would be a .. wait for it .. version history! | 03:04 |
| kanzure | screw it - just a 'agx-get useful script thing' or whatever. That's all. Simple. Done. | 03:04 |
| fenn | it gets even more complicated with branching and merging and so on | 03:05 |
| fenn | this is often done informally and inadequately | 03:05 |
| fenn | like "i got this idea from a thread on stupidbb.com" | 03:06 |
| fenn | which is then gone, of course | 03:06 |
| fenn | now it may appear that i'm obsessed with attribution, but really i'm not | 03:06 |
| fenn | it's just that i have the theory that a person who originates an idea has thought it out much more thoroughly and freely than people who pick up their idea later on | 03:07 |
| fenn | they tend to have much better solutions overall, but are technically constrained for financial or technological reasons | 03:07 |
| fenn | so they actually implement a sort of weak ghost-image of their real vision | 03:08 |
| kanzure | yes, this happens often | 03:08 |
| fenn | example: RMS didnt have the internet | 03:09 |
| kanzure | well, he had something | 03:09 |
| kanzure | he had email, right? | 03:09 |
| fenn | its no accident linux appeared just as the internet started getting in full swing | 03:09 |
| kanzure | 91? | 03:09 |
| fenn | yeah but nobody else had email | 03:09 |
| kanzure | RMS had usenet, he made his announcement in 86 | 03:10 |
| fenn | 1983 | 03:10 |
| kanzure | Google's History of Usenet page has been broken for a while | 03:10 |
| kanzure | ah, 83 | 03:10 |
| fenn | http://www.gnu.org/gnu/initial-announcement.html i seem to be interested in computer history lately | 03:13 |
| fenn | it's really not that long ago though | 03:13 |
| fenn | i can almost remember a blurry image from 1983 | 03:14 |
| kanzure | heh, checked Google for the python class syntax and came across http://xahlee.org/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html | 03:15 |
| kanzure | which, interestingly enough, I am listening to "Information High", which appears on Xah Lee's site. | 03:15 |
| fenn | who is this xah lee character anyway? seems to show up in a lot of searches, and has a nasty unix-haters webpage | 03:17 |
| kanzure | wait, unix-haters ? that's weird | 03:19 |
| kanzure | he seems to be an internet anomaly much like ourselves, but I am not too sure | 03:19 |
| fenn | "completed all math courses they offered, but never obtained any degree" | 03:21 |
| fenn | "In 2004-2005, i have worked nonstop on my personal website (again as a escapism), and learned tremendously of subjects that i do not know much about previously" | 03:24 |
| kanzure | not too big on the whole vocab thing, but it might be a second language thing | 03:24 |
| fenn | "I also program in Python, Java, and lisp. Among the computing languages, Mathematica is my favorite by far. I deem unix, C, and Perl obstacles to progress. I'm a adherent of purely functional languages, such as Haskell." | 03:25 |
| kanzure | maybe he means unix, not *nix | 03:25 |
| fenn | i think he means *nix | 03:25 |
| kanzure | that's an odd thing to say | 03:25 |
| kanzure | he's a macosx user | 03:26 |
| fenn | that doesnt necessarily mean he thinks it's god's gift to man | 03:26 |
| kanzure | which ... uses *nix. | 03:26 |
| fenn | unix is an "attractor" in the mathematical sense | 03:27 |
| fenn | but in reality, it was a project started at bell labs in the early 70's | 03:28 |
| fenn | so it's hard to visualize the whole of possible operating systems | 03:28 |
| fenn | just as most languages are descended from .. fortran? | 03:29 |
| fenn | algol | 03:30 |
| kanzure | no | 03:31 |
| kanzure | yes | 03:31 |
| fenn | maybe? | 03:31 |
| kanzure | Algol-60 | 03:31 |
| kanzure | context: Tony worked on Algol ... | 03:32 |
| fenn | who is tony? | 03:32 |
| kanzure | I keep him mentioning, but you haven't asked | 03:32 |
| fenn | i keep distracted being | 03:32 |
| kanzure | technical-oldie, sleep I need | 03:32 |
| kanzure | found him via recursing through wikipedia, I think it was on 'process physics' | 03:32 |
| kanzure | the best way to explain would be for me to dump the logs on you, but calling him an 'internet anomaly' may be a good comparison | 03:33 |
| kanzure | his website might not suit him really http://meme.com.au/ | 03:34 |
| fenn | strange loops arent we all | 03:34 |
| fenn | "Might it help the comprehension of the uninformed if we used more affirmative language?" | 03:35 |
| kanzure | "selection of the sexiest" | 03:35 |
| kanzure | or | 03:35 |
| kanzure | 'prosperity of the sexiest' as the title on that page says | 03:36 |
| fenn | yes | 03:36 |
| fenn | the link text is clever though | 03:36 |
| kanzure | "Never underestimate the ability of a small group of thoughtful, dedicated individuals to change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - the Margaret Mead quote on that page. | 03:37 |
| kanzure | (front page, I mean) | 03:37 |
| kanzure | ugh, I need sleep | 03:37 |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] | 03:40 | |
| -!- NahtanoJ88 [i=user@102.sub-75-211-179.myvzw.com] has quit [] | 04:13 | |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-155-121.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 04:14 | |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-155-121.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] | 07:32 | |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:09 | |
| kanzure | Found xahlee ... he's in #xahlee . | 12:21 |
| kanzure | http://optics.org/cws/article/research/19184 Concrete with embedded fiber optics? Something about displaying what's on the other side, sort of. | 12:33 |
| --- Log opened Sun Apr 27 19:42:21 2008 | ||
| -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-251-83-100.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:42 | |
| -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help | 19:42 | |
| -!- Topic set by krebs [] [Mon Apr 7 03:08:21 2008] | 19:42 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 19:42 | |
| [ drazak] [ fenn] [ kanzure] [ krebs] | 19:42 | |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] | 19:42 | |
| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 19:42 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 28 secs | 19:43 | |
| kanzure | http://octopart.com/ | 19:59 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/agx-get.py | 19:59 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/textbooks.html | 19:59 |
| fenn | octopart is very cool | 20:04 |
| fenn | many colleges require the latest version of a textbook as some sort of planned obsolescence maneuvering by the textbook manufacturers | 20:06 |
| fenn | you cant even re-sell the book unless they are using it the next year | 20:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: also, I threw up a photo on / | 20:09 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0737-rot.JPG <- me | 20:31 |
| kanzure | yep, looks like it'd be you | 20:31 |
| kanzure | but what's with the green? | 20:32 |
| fenn | my room is green.. i didnt paint it (well, i did, a little) | 20:33 |
| fenn | new room: http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0797.JPG | 20:34 |
| kanzure | Hm, your thumbnail index is pretty nifty | 20:38 |
| kanzure | I might have to get me one of those ... for the 3 GB of photos on /camera/ | 20:38 |
| fenn | qdig "just works" unlike 90% of the thumbnail galleries out there | 20:38 |
| fenn | you just put the cgi in your photo dir and it semi-dynamically generates everything | 20:38 |
| fenn | i should probably chop it up by year so there arent so many thumbnails but meh | 20:39 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:39 |
| fenn | man they just dont make screensavers like they used to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiFs1Vd0KeY | 20:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: Where do we want to store skdb files, locally? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | on the user's machine | 21:22 |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-155-121.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:12 | |
| kanzure | Hey marainein. | 22:16 |
| marainein | hey kanzure | 22:18 |
| marainein | how have you been? | 22:18 |
| marainein | actually I think I asked you that a few hours ago :P | 22:18 |
| kanzure | yeah ... | 22:18 |
| kanzure | nothing has changed. | 22:18 |
| marainein | went to class. did class. came back. cooking lunch | 22:19 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
