| --- Day changed Sat May 10 2008 | ||
| kanzure | Hi marainein. | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| marainein | hi kanzure | 00:15 |
| marainein | how are you? | 00:15 |
| kanzure | Doing well. Give me five minutes and I'll post up an email-essay I just wrote. | 00:16 |
| marainein | ok | 00:17 |
| kanzure | marainein, fenn, ybit - http://heybryan.org/2008-05-09.html | 00:40 |
| kanzure | an email I just sent to a guy doing a presentation on (space-oriented) manufacturing automation at IDSC2008 | 00:40 |
| kanzure | and I have somebody from Kurzweil's team chatting to me over here, she has Mark Hopkins on the phoneline. http://www.nss.org/about/bios/hopkins.html | 00:41 |
| * marainein reads | 00:41 | |
| ybit | your talking right now? *is jealous* | 00:41 |
| ybit | everyone around here is sleeping and panics over the slightest noise | 00:41 |
| ybit | your/you're* | 00:42 |
| kanzure | I'm not talking. Typing. | 00:45 |
| ybit | /query not sure if you edit your stuff after posting, but... " | 00:57 |
| ybit | "he Semantic Web is an evolving extension of the World Wide Web in which | 00:57 |
| ybit | the semantics of information and services on the web is defined, making | 00:57 |
| ybit | ... | 00:57 |
| ybit | my bad | 00:57 |
| ybit | meant to send that to you kanzure | 00:57 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 00:57 |
| kanzure | yeah, I sent the email already, so didn't bother. It's fixed now. | 00:58 |
| kanzure | ybit. | 00:58 |
| ybit | i'm slowly working out the kinks getting used to konversation on this pc | 00:58 |
| * ybit is used to irssi | 00:58 | |
| ybit | reading what you sent.. but.. i've noticed a lot of authors not mentioning open source, collaborative efforts in their ideas of the future. namely, ray kurzweil and virnor vinge | 01:00 |
| ybit | and there isn't much mention of the molecular assemblar | 01:01 |
| kanzure | yes. good eye. I have about five email-essays on that subject from a recent friend I acquired, if you're interested. It basically says just that, but with more words. | 01:01 |
| kanzure | well, molecular assemblers are possibly more intense than a macroscale self-replicating machine | 01:01 |
| kanzure | but I'm okay with either one | 01:01 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html | 01:01 |
| kanzure | I've been struggling with the Wikipedia article for a few months now. It's retarded. | 01:01 |
| kanzure | They have criticisms up about "the socioeconomic divide" -- yet self-replicators solve this. | 01:01 |
| kanzure | So they're just bullshitting / contaminating the good tech-engineers/scientists behind these ideas. | 01:02 |
| ybit | i've a friend working on a macroscale self-replicating machine right now | 01:02 |
| ybit | he shoudl have version 1 out in a year | 01:02 |
| kanzure | RepRap? | 01:02 |
| ybit | nope | 01:02 |
| kanzure | CBA? | 01:02 |
| ybit | reprap isn't very precise | 01:02 |
| kanzure | yes, we've talked about that endlessly in here :) | 01:03 |
| kanzure | ybit: is it at the Media Lab? | 01:03 |
| ybit | is that center for bits and atoms?... | 01:03 |
| kanzure | btw, refresh the 2008-05-09.html file for a link at the bottom to an email I just got from somebody suggesting to not go to ISDC2008 | 01:03 |
| kanzure | yes | 01:03 |
| kanzure | I had David Dalrymple coming in here for a while, but he left it seems | 01:03 |
| kanzure | (David works for Neil @ CBA) | 01:04 |
| kanzure | (note how I cite Neil in 2008-05-09.html - this is not an accident) | 01:04 |
| ybit | tbh, the details are over my head, but he and his friends claim that they will be able to create electron microscopes and other precise measuring tools with it | 01:04 |
| kanzure | yep | 01:04 |
| kanzure | there are plans on my site for a <$100 STM. | 01:04 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/graphene.html also is another route towards self-replicators, the piezoelectric effect + field effect on easily-editable graphene sheet molecules. | 01:05 |
| ybit | i've a feeling i'll be stuck doing the website for the machine | 01:05 |
| kanzure | ybit: you need to introduce me to this friend of yours | 01:05 |
| kanzure | the broader project in here is a 'manufacturing database' | 01:05 |
| kanzure | call it SKDB | 01:05 |
| ybit | ah, piezo motors, i believe they are working on that right now | 01:05 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb | 01:05 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Getting_up_to_speed | 01:05 |
| kanzure | it's like debian's apt except for manufacturing processes | 01:06 |
| ybit | haha, getting up to speed isn't fun :P | 01:06 |
| kanzure | no kidding :( | 01:06 |
| kanzure | geared towards a set of fabricational processes that will do self-replication eventually | 01:06 |
| ybit | i've had to delay a few projects this week just reading all the info on your site :P | 01:06 |
| kanzure | **but** if we can't do that, and it's a blackswan, then we can at least do fabrication in the first place - hurray | 01:06 |
| kanzure | ybit: :) | 01:06 |
| kanzure | ybit: if you are able to read through that much content then you definitely belong in here | 01:06 |
| kanzure | fenn is in here for a good reason ;) | 01:07 |
| ybit | or deserve a life ;) | 01:07 |
| kanzure | http://fennetic.net/ is him | 01:07 |
| ybit | my doctor prescribed the wrong drugs so i'm having to order the good stuff offline :| | 01:07 |
| ybit | online* | 01:07 |
| ybit | anyone tried inderal yet? | 01:09 |
| ybit | this will be my first time to try adrafinil, inderal, and oxiracetam | 01:09 |
| kanzure | the *acetams are good, I've heard | 01:09 |
| kanzure | ybit: I think the most important page on heybryan.org might be http://heybryan.org/exp.html - which attempts to be a broad overview of WTF I am talking about; you'll get it if you are a programmer | 01:12 |
| kanzure | ybit: so you're into synbio too? | 01:16 |
| kanzure | or is this only after learning of biohack.sf.net and my other copious caches of information? | 01:16 |
| ybit | i came across you on fbook after getting into synbio | 01:18 |
| ybit | sorry for the delay here.. family issues | 01:18 |
| ybit | i live in a house where studying math, not believing in a religion and using the computer instead of wasting time on a computer is considered psychotic | 01:19 |
| kanzure | how old? | 01:19 |
| ybit | heh, now that i'm embarrased to say | 01:20 |
| ybit | i'm in college | 01:20 |
| ybit | junior | 01:20 |
| ybit | but i've yet to make the move out of the hosue | 01:20 |
| kanzure | yes, I can relate; sort of. Except they all think I am totally wasting my time on the computer ;-) | 01:21 |
| kanzure | So wgheath found me again. | 01:33 |
| kanzure | He doesn't seem to 'get it'. | 01:33 |
| ybit | sadly, i have these family matters to take care of. nice email kanzure, plenty of information to resarch | 01:41 |
| kanzure | ybit: we'll talk later | 01:41 |
| kanzure | where are you? | 01:41 |
| ybit | northern alabama, attending www.una.edu | 01:41 |
| ybit | a local college | 01:41 |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] | 03:15 | |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253.192.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 05:51 | |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 11:51 | |
| fenn | wah | 12:03 |
| fenn | email is impossible | 12:03 |
| * fenn wants "semantic mail" | 12:03 | |
| kanzure | fenn: what's up ? | 12:06 |
| fenn | writing you an email | 12:08 |
| fenn | just found out my grandpa died yesterday | 12:08 |
| fenn | mostly i feel annoyed that i'm supposed to feel something, because i don't | 12:11 |
| kanzure | annoyed at yourself or at others | 12:17 |
| kanzure | fenn. | 12:17 |
| kanzure | ^ just forgot to add the 'flash attack' token | 12:17 |
| kanzure | I try to maintain a policy of always including a name if there's some multi-minute gap | 12:17 |
| fenn | oh | 12:17 |
| fenn | it doesnt do anything, just makes your name yellow | 12:18 |
| kanzure | I have it setup to visually notify me, so it's an interrupt system | 12:18 |
| fenn | bleh ok email sent but it's unfinished, so wtf am i trying to say | 12:19 |
| fenn | fenn teh hypocrite | 12:19 |
| kanzure | oh, it's not about the grandfather | 12:20 |
| fenn | right, i prefer irc because it's not interruptive | 12:20 |
| fenn | no, i was looking up your email address and saw mail from my mom | 12:20 |
| kanzure | hah | 12:20 |
| fenn | so that's distracting :) | 12:20 |
| kanzure | hm | 12:21 |
| kanzure | what would you prefer, email response or just talk about it | 12:21 |
| kanzure | I see you point out that I didn't actually integrate a lot of the content together | 12:21 |
| fenn | just read it and respond if you like | 12:21 |
| kanzure | I was trying to tone down my babbling about those subsubjects | 12:21 |
| fenn | i know you cover a lot of ground and its hard to travel fast and communicate well at the same time | 12:22 |
| fenn | but people are going to get overwhelmed if you only send out 'something that looked like it was thrown together by a gang of retarded paraliterates' | 12:23 |
| kanzure | I see. | 12:23 |
| kanzure | I don't know what an alternative would look like. | 12:23 |
| kanzure | I can definitely crank out the babbling paragraphs, but people aren't necessarily going to want to read a 15 line paragraph | 12:23 |
| kanzure | So why not just work off of the sources directly, showing the puzzle pieces, and then moving towards the bigger 'jigsaw puzzle' ? | 12:24 |
| kanzure | grounding & humans -- you, surely, have seen many people that seem to not understand that they don't really have a basis in reality, only their own small nook in society supported by massive industrialization and large communities, so in a sense yes they are 'grounded' but don't they live on a pretty abstract level? | 12:26 |
| fenn | that describes every person i know | 12:26 |
| kanzure | me? | 12:27 |
| fenn | yep | 12:27 |
| kanzure | perhaps, thus the 'human condition' ;-) | 12:27 |
| fenn | so, no, i dont agree that being dependent on civilization means you aren't grounded in reality | 12:27 |
| fenn | if you think money is something you can eat, then you arent grounded | 12:28 |
| kanzure | I don't agree either. I don't think that's what I was trying to say, but it is what I said. Hm. | 12:28 |
| kanzure | I think the comparison that I was trying to make is this: | 12:28 |
| kanzure | in ai research, suppose you have this ai on a computer that is pure genius -- it's all symbol manipulation within the virtual memory and so on | 12:29 |
| kanzure | and thus there's no 'grounding' to reality, even though it's certainly running on the microprocessor | 12:29 |
| kanzure | same with people; you can have many thoughts - but how many can you find supporting references, links, people, societies for etc. ? | 12:29 |
| kanzure | Maybe that can help explain my massive link collection. | 12:29 |
| fenn | i dont believe you need a citation for every belief or statement | 12:30 |
| fenn | its impossible to figure out what is true or false based on citation anyway | 12:30 |
| fenn | flaw of peer review | 12:30 |
| kanzure | right | 12:30 |
| kanzure | but at the same time, think about all of the people who truly want to 'end world hunger' (crappy example) | 12:30 |
| kanzure | they might want to do it, but they're up there in lala land apparently | 12:31 |
| kanzure | since nobody has gotten anything done on that front | 12:31 |
| fenn | yeah crappy example :) | 12:31 |
| kanzure | okay, so I think you're commenting more on name calling rather than whether or not an isolated thought can get anything done | 12:31 |
| kanzure | in a sense I was name calling I guess | 12:31 |
| fenn | thought only affects reality if it affects subsequent actions | 12:32 |
| fenn | models only represent reality if they're based on experience | 12:32 |
| fenn | but, err.. are we still talking about that jumbled email? | 12:33 |
| * fenn is confused | 12:33 | |
| kanzure | don't know, I'm not in the mode it seems | 12:33 |
| fenn | i'll take this opportunity to go off on a wild tangent | 12:34 |
| fenn | i just read 'a deepness in the sky' in which some cranky humans turn a brain disease into a virus-mediated form of mind control | 12:34 |
| kanzure | neat, that's on my desk to my right | 12:35 |
| fenn | the virus secretes neurotoxin in certain cells, tuned based on fMRI so that the end result is the person becomes an autistic savant (in their chosen field) | 12:35 |
| fenn | its a long book | 12:35 |
| kanzure | I read Lobster a few days ago. And Haldeman's story on uhh, ah, removing the eyes and wiring the optic nerve back into the brain | 12:37 |
| kanzure | as a way to manage your thought processes | 12:37 |
| fenn | anyway, it's an interesting path to intelligence augmentation? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | hm | 12:37 |
| kanzure | neurotoxin is kinda vague | 12:37 |
| fenn | (but how its used in the story is not for intelligence augmentation exactly) | 12:37 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/recursion.html mentions that method though | 12:37 |
| kanzure | you know the recent cancer interventions that they are trying? | 12:37 |
| fenn | well, it reminded me of rTMS | 12:37 |
| kanzure | they do coated drugs | 12:37 |
| kanzure | that are released at specific places in the body thanks to targetted lasers | 12:37 |
| kanzure | so it can get down to single-capillary precision | 12:37 |
| kanzure | don't know how to do that with the brain though. Anything in the line of path would be 'activated' | 12:38 |
| fenn | haldeman's story was kinda weak | 12:38 |
| kanzure | yes | 12:38 |
| kanzure | but I hadn't considered plugging the eyes back around before, so. | 12:38 |
| fenn | meh | 12:38 |
| kanzure | anyway, so back to the augmentation point | 12:39 |
| kanzure | re: rTMS | 12:39 |
| fenn | is rTMS augmentation? | 12:39 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/rTMS I need to go read up on Synder's work again | 12:39 |
| kanzure | not really, I dunno | 12:39 |
| kanzure | but http://transcenmentalism.org/ is doing OpenStim, an open source rTMS machine | 12:39 |
| fenn | its sort like 'is a virus alive' kind of question | 12:39 |
| kanzure | you'll see Mark Garfin on that site ... aka superkuh | 12:39 |
| kanzure | but I'm also interested in neurochemicals | 12:40 |
| kanzure | you know how in hospitals they do the realtime chemical monitoring systems so that doctors know how to change drugs on a moment's notice? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | I want that for the brain | 12:40 |
| kanzure | to maintain cognitive state | 12:40 |
| kanzure | so that while programming I can have my system inject me with something to maintain the 'the mode' if it starts to read various variables dropping | 12:40 |
| fenn | hospital stuff like blood sugar, salt levels? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | well, yes, but also the emergency room and intensive care units seem to do more monitoring these days | 12:41 |
| kanzure | EGGs, EKGs, solute levels, the works | 12:41 |
| kanzure | *EEGs | 12:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: there's also something else that I've been meaning to talk with you about re: rTMS. | 12:41 |
| kanzure | I took some physical handwritten notes on Henry Markram's video, so I've dissected it completely now | 12:42 |
| kanzure | in it, he says that MEG and fMRI of the brain is the equivalent of seeing perceptions in the head | 12:42 |
| fenn | you were offline for a while.. | 12:42 |
| kanzure | but Wikipedia still (after all these years) tells me fMRI is still doing blood oxygen usage, not the actual dendritic activity | 12:42 |
| kanzure | yes, yes I was. Laptop power adapter problems. So I have about +20 pages of handwritten notes now ... in very, very tiny handwriting. | 12:43 |
| fenn | lol | 12:43 |
| kanzure | I'd like to go over some of the insights I acquired while sitting/writing/thinking, it's actually right on topic with augmentation | 12:43 |
| kanzure | on Orion's Arm, have you come across the toposophic conjecture yet? | 12:44 |
| fenn | no i havent looked at orionsarm for months | 12:44 |
| kanzure | " The Borodin Conjecture (proposed in 275 a.t. by the AI Borodin at the Novokir Habitat) implies that all possible minds fulfilling certain basic intelligence criteria are upwardly limited by a toposophic barrier" | 12:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.orionsarm.com/sophontology/toposophy.html | 12:44 |
| kanzure | "Toposophy deals with the theoretical problems and possibilities of attempts to extend and amplify one's mental potential. " | 12:44 |
| fenn | oh this is the refactoring orprocess | 12:44 |
| fenn | s/or// | 12:45 |
| fenn | yes i read some of that | 12:45 |
| fenn | MEG is SQUID not fMRI | 12:45 |
| kanzure | SQUID? | 12:46 |
| fenn | its more like a current sensor | 12:46 |
| kanzure | hm | 12:46 |
| kanzure | so, yeah, sort of like the refactoring | 12:46 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQUID | 12:46 |
| -!- Vedestin [n=vircuser@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:46 | |
| kanzure | the idea is that we both know that we might be screwed in the end since our brains are going to be more or less inaccessible | 12:47 |
| kanzure | but that we can do some things to help prolong their life, if we wanted that, or augment the intelligence | 12:47 |
| kanzure | but also at the same time - why not just prepare for the next toposophic barrier? | 12:47 |
| kanzure | i.e., we both would want to make brains | 12:47 |
| kanzure | right? | 12:47 |
| fenn | um, why make brains? | 12:47 |
| fenn | bak up, define "brain" | 12:47 |
| kanzure | sorry, I should probably say intelligence implementation or something | 12:48 |
| fenn | i think of "brain" as a squishy grey thing | 12:48 |
| kanzure | okay, a 'next' brain | 12:48 |
| kanzure | the idea is that the brain is fundamentally flawed and that we can use our insights to design a new architecture of sorts | 12:48 |
| fenn | maybe better to define it in terms of functionality | 12:48 |
| Vedestin | is it fundamentally flawed though? | 12:49 |
| kanzure | brb, mom call? | 12:49 |
| kanzure | well, sort of | 12:49 |
| Vedestin | it's a pretty good start for something that happened by accident | 12:49 |
| kanzure | information processing capacity, can't import thoughts easily (apt-get install physics) | 12:49 |
| fenn | Vedestin: it's biological, meaning it has all the same problems as other biological systems | 12:49 |
| kanzure | GA | 12:49 |
| fenn | lack of reconfigurability, stringent environmental requirements | 12:50 |
| Vedestin | apt-get install physics would be so useful.... | 12:50 |
| kanzure | unit-tests of minicolumns to import new insights, a 'perceptual ecology' for the semantic web grounded in perceptions / brains | 12:50 |
| kanzure | argh, mom-phone | 12:50 |
| fenn | a moment of silence | 12:50 |
| Vedestin | hussshhh | 12:51 |
| kanzure | Okay, sorry. | 12:53 |
| fenn | dont be sorry | 12:54 |
| kanzure | Get this - mom goes off to Europe, on a free cruise, and tells me to update her blog for her | 12:54 |
| kanzure | so she's sending me all these emails of her having this fabulous time | 12:54 |
| Vedestin | your mother has a blog | 12:54 |
| kanzure | meanwhile I'm in school all day, wtf? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: http://lindalarry.wordpress.com/ | 12:54 |
| kanzure | my mom is a stripper | 12:54 |
| kanzure | Alright. back on topic | 12:54 |
| kanzure | I kind of babbled above, sorry about that | 12:55 |
| kanzure | let me offer some clarification on this line: "unit-tests of minicolumns to import new insights, a 'perceptual ecology' for the semantic web grounded in perceptions / brains" | 12:55 |
| Vedestin | yeah, please | 12:55 |
| fenn | perceptual ecology = paradigm | 12:55 |
| kanzure | not quite | 12:55 |
| kanzure | argh, lost my copy+paste buffer | 12:56 |
| kanzure | the idea of a perceptual ecology is simply the idea of generating new minicolumns in the brain | 12:56 |
| fenn | i wonder if its not the same thing | 12:56 |
| kanzure | Markram's research has found that autists are locking down functionality into the minicolumns | 12:56 |
| fenn | would explain why old people get stuck in their paradigms | 12:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: perhaps on a meta level sure | 12:56 |
| kanzure | yeah | 12:56 |
| fenn | no i mean on a physical level | 12:56 |
| kanzure | so Markram says something about obsessively repeating those acquired functionalities, preserving them and so on | 12:57 |
| kanzure | and he talks about painting perceptions on to dendrites | 12:57 |
| fenn | like, you see a (homo) and it triggers your homophobe minicolumn | 12:57 |
| kanzure | I don't know about the one to one mapping | 12:57 |
| kanzure | I'd like to prove it, or disprove though | 12:57 |
| fenn | ok, i dont know enough about neuro | 12:57 |
| kanzure | soo at the moment the problem with our brains is the inability to do augmentation really | 12:57 |
| kanzure | can't maintain those long recursions and programming sessions | 12:57 |
| kanzure | eventually something is going to distract us, mostly our own brain | 12:58 |
| kanzure | what if we had an architecture where we could import and integrate new functionality as easily as a command? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | I call it a 'perceptual ecology' only because you get to transfer ideas like genes now | 12:58 |
| fenn | horizontal transfer | 12:59 |
| fenn | hmm | 12:59 |
| kanzure | memes are almost the same thing, and I'm impressed that ideas can be transferred to some extent, but we all know it's screwy | 12:59 |
| fenn | (genes aren't usually transferred horizontally except in bacteria) | 12:59 |
| kanzure | and it's nothing about the actual architecture | 12:59 |
| kanzure | (memes aren't, I mean) | 12:59 |
| fenn | actually, communication is built into your brain | 13:00 |
| Vedestin | it is, to a degree | 13:00 |
| kanzure | so perhaps it's a compression mechanism | 13:00 |
| fenn | yes, due to the low bandwidth of talking, dancing | 13:00 |
| Vedestin | ideas have to be reinforced over and over | 13:00 |
| Vedestin | so that only relevant ideas stick | 13:00 |
| kanzure | so that's why I've been more focusing on two topics now: (1) current augmentation for *us* (brain implants, rTMS, maybe brain uploading in the future - that'd be interesting, but don't count on it), (2) the next step - making a brain that can recursively self-improve itself. | 13:00 |
| kanzure | re: reinforcement over and over again, http://supermemo.com/ | 13:01 |
| kanzure | I used to be a big fan of supermemo, until I killed myself with 25,000 items to review a day | 13:01 |
| fenn | supermemo only works for certain tasks | 13:01 |
| kanzure | too much computational complexity in linearly reviewing stimulation like that | 13:01 |
| fenn | language acquisition, legal and medical (fields with rote memorization, no holistic overview) | 13:02 |
| kanzure | funny, I'd think that medicine should have lots of holistic thought into it | 13:02 |
| kanzure | have to consider the whole organism, the context | 13:02 |
| fenn | that's why they totally suck at healing people | 13:02 |
| Vedestin | they're ok at it | 13:02 |
| fenn | i'd wager 99% of diseases can be cured by diet modification | 13:02 |
| Vedestin | just diet? | 13:03 |
| Vedestin | or diet and environmental | 13:03 |
| fenn | but our agriculture/transportation industries arent arranged properly | 13:03 |
| fenn | Vedestin: the human body is actually very good at removing environmental toxins, if you give it a chance | 13:03 |
| kanzure | I sat down the other day to read through a textbook on neuropsychopharmacology | 13:03 |
| Vedestin | what about arsenic | 13:03 |
| kanzure | within the first page I had an artificial anxiety attack | 13:03 |
| Vedestin | or asbestos | 13:03 |
| kanzure | because I *know* these people are clueless | 13:03 |
| * fenn shrugs | 13:03 | |
| kanzure | they're not testing through the entire chemical possibility space | 13:04 |
| Vedestin | black lung | 13:04 |
| kanzure | they don't have self-replicating technology to test that many molecules | 13:04 |
| kanzure | and they certainly aren't running multi-billion tissue sample experiments | 13:04 |
| fenn | Vedestin: black lung is a good example of a combination between poor diet and environment | 13:04 |
| kanzure | so I know they are clueless. I know these medical scientists are more or less clueless. but they do get good ideas and insights, of course | 13:04 |
| Vedestin | asbestosis too | 13:04 |
| fenn | kanzure: they are "just" medical scientists, not polymaths (this is the problem) | 13:05 |
| kanzure | self-limiting context :( | 13:05 |
| fenn | do you know any medical students? they just want to make a passing grade | 13:05 |
| kanzure | I hang out on some medical forums from time to time | 13:06 |
| kanzure | these people scare the living shit out of me | 13:06 |
| fenn | the competition is so fierce they cant step back and look at the big picture | 13:06 |
| fenn | they'll get run over | 13:06 |
| fenn | the whole situation is so fucked | 13:06 |
| kanzure | they could do more help by just dropping out of school, and living on the streets with medical equipment in the back of a truck | 13:06 |
| fenn | i got caught in the middle of it when i was in college doing molecular biology | 13:06 |
| fenn | kanzure: but that would be illegal | 13:06 |
| fenn | vigilante doctors :P | 13:07 |
| * fenn whines about wanting his own space colony | 13:07 | |
| Vedestin | space colonies would be ok | 13:08 |
| fenn | correction: _my_ space colony would be ok :) | 13:08 |
| fenn | one advantage is you can split off half the land and get away from the crazies | 13:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: re: space colonies, http://openvirgle.net/ - but you already know about this | 13:09 |
| kanzure | yep | 13:09 |
| fenn | for some reason i'm not very optimistic about openvirgle | 13:10 |
| fenn | its just another space advocacy group | 13:10 |
| fenn | maybe i'm getting old | 13:11 |
| fenn | 26 :) | 13:11 |
| Vedestin | ooooold | 13:11 |
| Vedestin | 21, i win | 13:12 |
| fenn | nope | 13:12 |
| Vedestin | yes | 13:12 |
| fenn | oh kanzure re opens source space development, this is a good model for how an article with lots of references could look: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy | 13:14 |
| ybit | just saw this: "[00:05] <kanzure>: ybit: you need to introduce me to this friend of yours" ...his nick is 'phreedom' on freenode | 13:15 |
| kanzure | No such user. | 13:15 |
| fenn | ugh i keep seeing that nick showing up randomly | 13:15 |
| fenn | people talking about him, not the guy | 13:16 |
| ybit | 'msg nickserv info phreedom' - he was on here 2 days ago - he's been busy lately | 13:16 |
| kanzure | fenn: openvirgle is just SKDB ;) | 13:16 |
| kanzure | I've been able to maneuver around for that to happen | 13:16 |
| ybit | and having bandwidth problems | 13:16 |
| kanzure | so it's just a way to get some interest going | 13:16 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 13:16 |
| fenn | gee it would be nice if we had some kind of backing body with lots of money | 13:17 |
| kanzure | I'm working on that | 13:19 |
| kanzure | how does Peter Thiels sound to you | 13:19 |
| fenn | too angel, not institutional enuf | 13:20 |
| fenn | ideally something we could piggy-back credibility | 13:20 |
| fenn | 'peter thiels' name doesn't mean anything to most people | 13:21 |
| Vedestin | it means nothing to me | 13:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: Peter did the funding for http://singinst.org/ | 13:21 |
| fenn | ah i see | 13:21 |
| fenn | elon musk v2.0 | 13:22 |
| kanzure | SingInst is way too focused on ai | 13:22 |
| kanzure | you know what? | 13:22 |
| kanzure | I might as well start my own Sing Inst | 13:22 |
| fenn | meh | 13:22 |
| Vedestin | yeah, do that | 13:22 |
| kanzure | singinst.org is for SIAI - for ai. Why not just a plain one ;) | 13:22 |
| kanzure | anyway | 13:22 |
| fenn | SIAI? | 13:22 |
| kanzure | that's what singinst.org is called | 13:23 |
| kanzure | Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence | 13:23 |
| fenn | oh i see | 13:23 |
| kanzure | whereas I think it should really be more about exponential growth | 13:23 |
| kanzure | did you read my essay on this? | 13:23 |
| fenn | you're saying they shouldbe siai.org, with pointers back to singinst.org which has multiple branches | 13:23 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/On_the_design_of_a_singularity | 13:23 |
| kanzure | basically, if you get ai - like Markram has, sort of - | 13:23 |
| kanzure | and it improves itself, how is it going to make new hardware? | 13:23 |
| fenn | uhhhh. not | 13:23 |
| kanzure | it's going to have to learn from the literature and so on, yes? so then ... we're back to SKDB anyway | 13:23 |
| fenn | markram does not have intelligence, no way | 13:24 |
| kanzure | like | 13:24 |
| kanzure | so imagine it's on a supercomputer like his | 13:24 |
| fenn | the guy is smart but he's running simulations of neurons, dont get confused | 13:24 |
| kanzure | he's leading up to whole brain simulation | 13:25 |
| kanzure | that's why he's doing a column, not just a neuron | 13:25 |
| kanzure | (organization of the brain involves columns, circuits, neurons, etc.) | 13:25 |
| kanzure | anyway, I can't see how ai would magically surpass the problem that skdb solves | 13:25 |
| fenn | ok, please dont mix that plan/path up with what we normally call 'AI' | 13:25 |
| kanzure | who is we | 13:26 |
| kanzure | I'm missing the context, you don't like biological-simulated ai? | 13:26 |
| fenn | no | 13:26 |
| fenn | it's something else | 13:27 |
| fenn | simulated intelligence, how's thta for a buzzword | 13:27 |
| kanzure | k | 13:27 |
| * fenn grumbles about namespaces | 13:27 | |
| * ybit doesn't care much for 'apt-get install physics' | 13:28 | |
| ybit | i'd much rather have 'emerge physics' :) | 13:28 |
| kanzure | uh oh, a gentoo user :) | 13:28 |
| kanzure | burn him! | 13:28 |
| fenn | emerge emergent-physics | 13:28 |
| kanzure | hehe | 13:28 |
| ybit | :P | 13:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: a loop hole :) | 13:28 |
| kanzure | ybit: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb for skdb. | 13:29 |
| fenn | a bifurcation | 13:29 |
| ybit | kanzure: you read my mind | 13:29 |
| fenn | a twist, in the fabric of conversation, where time becomes a loop, where time becomes a loop | 13:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: this kind of sucks though | 13:31 |
| kanzure | there's only one really hard problem remaining | 13:31 |
| kanzure | that of the matter compiler, and then everything else is just standardization and getting the word out so that people can start to do it | 13:31 |
| kanzure | oh, and I guess acquiring a physical setup | 13:31 |
| kanzure | that would be fun. guess that's where the funding would be needed | 13:31 |
| kanzure | I was thinking of writing a page on "Why funding would be really, really useful in bootstrapping a possible singularity" | 13:32 |
| kanzure | (theoretically we could just dumpster dive for parts (etc) but ..) | 13:32 |
| fenn | ybit: who is your friend working on replication? | 13:33 |
| ybit | fenn: phreedom | 13:33 |
| fenn | oh ok | 13:33 |
| fenn | that explains a lot :) | 13:34 |
| ybit | ! :P | 13:34 |
| ybit | how do you know him? | 13:34 |
| fenn | i don't | 13:34 |
| ybit | ah, so you were referencing his username | 13:34 |
| fenn | i know him by reputation i guess. synthetic serendipity | 13:35 |
| ybit | i like the idea of making siai a subdirectory of si.org | 13:35 |
| kanzure | ybit: so fenn and I know a mutual contact, and I'm wondering if you know him | 13:35 |
| ybit | perhaps | 13:36 |
| * fenn peers around the room intently | 13:36 | |
| kanzure | have you read today's backlog alrady? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | *already | 13:36 |
| ybit | is it in the backlog? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | yeah, so if it is then I know you don't know him | 13:36 |
| kanzure | *so if you have | 13:36 |
| ybit | i might have missed something (hardly any sleep last night) | 13:37 |
| fenn | kanzure: i had an interesting conversation with my mom, apparently she was guided/inspired by arthur winfree and was telling me how amazing erik winfree was (right before i was about to say the same thing) | 13:37 |
| fenn | "and now little erik is grown up" hah | 13:37 |
| kanzure | heh | 13:37 |
| kanzure | so that's good | 13:37 |
| kanzure | I'm definitely going to pursue that lab position | 13:37 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/winfree.html (erik, not arthur) | 13:38 |
| fenn | good | 13:38 |
| kanzure | ybit: superkuh? | 13:38 |
| ybit | first time to hear of him/he | 13:38 |
| ybit | r | 13:38 |
| fenn | i wonder if i should contact winfree about my ideas on self-assembled fpga error correction | 13:39 |
| * fenn is terribly shy | 13:39 | |
| fenn | nss should have more space settlement art contests | 13:42 |
| kanzure | nss should have more online web presence | 13:42 |
| kanzure | but I'll be fixing that soon | 13:42 |
| fenn | i'm totally underwhelmed by nasa's 18-and-under space colony proposals | 13:42 |
| fenn | there are some really good artists out there who are just pissing their efforts away on star-wars fantasy crap because they dont have any technical guidance | 13:43 |
| fenn | or reason to want technical guidance | 13:43 |
| ybit | kanzure: is this the markram vid you watched? | 13:44 |
| ybit | btw, i'm 22 | 13:44 |
| ybit | missed 2 years of school o.O due to back surgery and heavy depression | 13:45 |
| fenn | kanzure: re On_the_design_of_a_singularity why do you say the toposophic conjecture is false? that isnt clear from the text | 13:45 |
| ybit | slightly OT, but following up from last night | 13:46 |
| ybit | oh.. the link...http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874207418572601262&q=Henry+Markram+lecture+video&ei=ZdYlSPWqD5KqrwLd8r2QCg | 13:46 |
| fenn | ybit: you arent missing much | 13:47 |
| fenn | escape while you still can! | 13:47 |
| ybit | heh | 13:47 |
| fenn | (as he gets sucked into the maw of grad school) | 13:47 |
| ybit | i need money atleast until a free molecular assembler is built | 13:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: I didn't say it is false, I say ignore it | 13:48 |
| kanzure | ybit: molecular assemblers aren't necessary | 13:48 |
| kanzure | we're doing macroscale self-replication here, not just molecular nanotech | 13:48 |
| fenn | " How could this be acceleration if it's still relying on linear fabricational processes?" because the linear processes are getting faster with each new advance (being exchanged for faster linear processes) | 13:50 |
| ybit | can you explain what you mean? macroscale makes me think of macroscopic, which is larger than molecular | 13:50 |
| fenn | ybit: think back to leonardo da-vinci | 13:50 |
| fenn | you have a clockwork man making gears | 13:51 |
| fenn | those gears and cams control the movement and processes the clockwork men execute | 13:51 |
| fenn | this is called a clanking replicator | 13:51 |
| fenn | if you abstract the function of gears and mechanical men, you can come up with clever ways to shortcut costly and error-prone subsystems | 13:52 |
| fenn | for example, shannon's information threshold | 13:53 |
| fenn | the atom-level spacing is one such physical threshold | 13:53 |
| fenn | this is why molecular nanotech is so appealing | 13:53 |
| fenn | but interacting with the physical world at that scale is a pain in the ass right now | 13:54 |
| fenn | there are no man-made self-replicating systems in existence, even when we have the tools laying around to make them, there isnt even a design | 13:55 |
| fenn | reprap cant make a squirter nozzle, they havent even mentioned ways to go about making one | 13:55 |
| Vedestin | can they make an axle | 13:55 |
| fenn | an axle? | 13:55 |
| Vedestin | axle | 13:56 |
| fenn | please elaborate, what is an axle? | 13:56 |
| kanzure | his point is that it needs a squirter nozzle | 13:56 |
| kanzure | the nozzle has to be able to make itself | 13:56 |
| kanzure | and it doesn't | 13:56 |
| fenn | well, the nozzle doesn't have to make itself | 13:56 |
| kanzure | ah, right | 13:56 |
| fenn | but something in the system has to make a nozzle | 13:56 |
| kanzure | well, the point is that it has to make a part that can make it | 13:56 |
| Vedestin | axle, the thing between two wheels | 13:56 |
| kanzure | 'a dependency loop' is what we call it | 13:56 |
| fenn | kanzure: actually its a functionality loop | 13:57 |
| fenn | a dependency loop would leave you with nothing done at all | 13:57 |
| kanzure | hrm | 13:57 |
| kanzure | okay, yes. | 13:57 |
| fenn | whereas we can make the first generation, but it can't make the second generation | 13:57 |
| * fenn has problems with dependency loops :( | 13:57 | |
| Vedestin | dump her | 13:57 |
| fenn | um. not that kind of problem | 13:58 |
| Vedestin | oh, win her back | 13:58 |
| * fenn glares at Vedestin | 13:58 | |
| Vedestin | it was 50/50 | 13:58 |
| fenn | stupid brains | 13:59 |
| fenn | hurry up on the refactor kanzure | 13:59 |
| Vedestin | so is this supermemo software useful? | 13:59 |
| fenn | if you're learning languages | 13:59 |
| fenn | check out mnemosyme | 13:59 |
| Vedestin | i'm learning maths | 14:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: which refactor, and of what | 14:00 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: the best way to learn math is to become Ramanujan, I think. | 14:00 |
| kanzure | hehe | 14:00 |
| fenn | http://mnemosyne-proj.sourceforge.net/ | 14:00 |
| Vedestin | hmm, short of that | 14:00 |
| fenn | kanzure: refactor of the brain | 14:00 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: http://heybryan.org/math/math.php more for the quotes and links at the top | 14:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: heh :) | 14:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: oh, so let me continue | 14:00 |
| kanzure | shit, I didn't realize I forgot so much | 14:00 |
| kanzure | okay, so I was talking about the 'next generation' - the refactoring, right? | 14:01 |
| kanzure | and we've talked about why self-replication and exponential growth would be useful for that before | 14:01 |
| kanzure | we could either (1) replicate the computer hardware to simulate it (and this would be useful for ai too) | 14:01 |
| kanzure | or (2) we could self-replicate physical experiments, with some digital measuring devices of course | 14:01 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neuropod (if this isn't here, check for incoming links) | 14:01 |
| fenn | or microfluidic chips | 14:01 |
| kanzure | yeah, the whole brain implant spiell | 14:02 |
| fenn | i mean for experimentation | 14:02 |
| kanzure | anyway, so if we can get that exponential growth | 14:02 |
| kanzure | then we can have very vast fields of experimental brain parts | 14:02 |
| kanzure | and then we can do selection experiments | 14:02 |
| kanzure | it's a genetic algorithm (GA) for generating insights, new perceptions and new brains - new augmentations, etc. | 14:02 |
| fenn | this is biological evolution all over again | 14:03 |
| kanzure | and while you're at it you can just digitally wire all of the slices up together - yes, there's somewhat of a lag, but it'd be good for experimental approximation of what an assembled brain from various units might do, or to elucidate the principles underlying a certain slice that we are experimenting on | 14:03 |
| kanzure | yeah, :-/ | 14:03 |
| fenn | same stupid weird incomprehensible mistakes | 14:03 |
| kanzure | hopefully we can constrain possibility space though | 14:03 |
| fenn | 'computer, give me only understandable results!' | 14:03 |
| kanzure | hm? | 14:03 |
| kanzure | please explain | 14:04 |
| fenn | computers are notoriously bad at (the opposite of) idea hiding | 14:04 |
| fenn | they can't explain what they're thinking | 14:04 |
| kanzure | can you? | 14:04 |
| fenn | yes | 14:04 |
| kanzure | I must suck. | 14:04 |
| fenn | i can model wat the other person understands | 14:05 |
| fenn | then i tailor my communication to that model | 14:05 |
| fenn | computer just spits out results | 14:05 |
| fenn | genetic algorithm just produces hidden ideas | 14:05 |
| kanzure | I am not making the connection. GA good or bad here? | 14:06 |
| Vedestin | GA incomplete here | 14:06 |
| fenn | with enough effort you can dissect the results of GA searches for functional designs, and abstract "themes" or how to actually do what you want | 14:06 |
| kanzure | oh | 14:06 |
| kanzure | I'm talking about a physical GA in the case of the neuropod, of course | 14:06 |
| fenn | either way | 14:07 |
| kanzure | I don't understand | 14:07 |
| fenn | ever actually looked at a GA output? | 14:07 |
| kanzure | are you saying that the GA results would be too much data to sift through | 14:07 |
| fenn | i'm saying GA would be just as hard to understand as studying monkey brains or squid brains | 14:07 |
| kanzure | it's a scoring function | 14:07 |
| kanzure | if it does something well, then there you go | 14:08 |
| fenn | how do you score for understandability? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | 'selection experiments' - 'directed evolution' | 14:08 |
| kanzure | huh? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | understandability? | 14:08 |
| fenn | you want an understandable neuropod so you can make a better one right? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | no? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | what would that mean? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | but I'm pretty sure, no ;) | 14:08 |
| fenn | means make a model of how it works, in human understandable terms | 14:08 |
| kanzure | do you mean a neuropod - a slice of neural tissue - that is organized in a way that is pretty to my eyes? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | oh | 14:09 |
| kanzure | no, not at all | 14:09 |
| kanzure | I'm thinking of this from a different perspective apparently | 14:09 |
| kanzure | so you have, say, a million neuropods out there, and you're integrating functionality into them - kind of like a giant brain, you're making billions of new minicolumns | 14:09 |
| fenn | i just dont think you're going to get anywhere by evolving new brain types | 14:09 |
| fenn | in the short term, yes, long-term no | 14:09 |
| kanzure | and you're feeding stimulation into certain sectors of them, and you're trying to train some to do certain things, and some are better than others | 14:09 |
| kanzure | so if one of them works, you look at the rules that you used to build that slice or column etc | 14:10 |
| kanzure | by 'work' I mean, "shift the input data stream to this pod here - see if it can process the data better" | 14:10 |
| kanzure | it'd be like the difference between the brain routing information about physics into a minicolumn about women (assuming your one-to-one mapping is true) | 14:10 |
| kanzure | *mapping hypothesis (?) | 14:10 |
| fenn | getting it to 'work' is the easy part | 14:10 |
| fenn | you can do that with ANN's already | 14:11 |
| kanzure | yeah. | 14:11 |
| fenn | so why physically instantiate that | 14:11 |
| kanzure | uhh | 14:11 |
| kanzure | hm | 14:11 |
| kanzure | well, I guess because we don't yet have the type of density that the brain can achieve | 14:12 |
| kanzure | but that's not a good reason | 14:12 |
| fenn | in ANN's? | 14:12 |
| kanzure | right | 14:12 |
| kanzure | have you seen an ANN with 100 billion neurons yet ? | 14:12 |
| kanzure | I haven't. | 14:12 |
| fenn | if there were a decent effort for making custom ANN hardware, we'd have much better connectivity than squishy hard-wired neurons | 14:12 |
| fenn | as it is they're all run in emulators at great computational cost | 14:12 |
| fenn | there are fpga's with millions of gates | 14:13 |
| kanzure | okay, either way | 14:13 |
| kanzure | both ways require skdb and manufacturing | 14:14 |
| fenn | looks like state of the art is around 10Mgate | 14:14 |
| fenn | (with a 10 billion dollar chip fab backing you up) | 14:14 |
| kanzure | and both ways I'm perfectly all right with ... although I would like to work on brain architectures that can fit within a skull | 14:14 |
| kanzure | or moonbrains etc. | 14:14 |
| fenn | ok but the difference between FPGA-based ANN's and neuropods is that you can design the fpga to report its configuration back to you | 14:15 |
| fenn | instead of sifting through tedious error-prone measurements | 14:15 |
| fenn | markram's patch-clamp stuff is a fucking joke | 14:15 |
| kanzure | remember, I said there were two approaches - wetware instantiation or computational simulations (FPGA-based ANNs) | 14:16 |
| kanzure | as for reporting the configuration back | 14:16 |
| kanzure | that's not the point really | 14:16 |
| fenn | yes, it is | 14:16 |
| kanzure | the idea is that there are some rules in mammalian brain organization which can be exploited to some extent | 14:16 |
| kanzure | molecular targetting, synaptic learning statistics, voltage regulation of voxels, etc | 14:17 |
| kanzure | so those rules are what you need to know really | 14:17 |
| kanzure | you just need to remember that neuropod or fpga-block 901492 was xyz rules etc | 14:17 |
| kanzure | (typical infrastructure management) | 14:17 |
| fenn | xyz-rules = random seed? | 14:17 |
| fenn | (one problem with that is neuropods dont grow deterministically) | 14:18 |
| fenn | fpga's won't necessarily grow deterministically either | 14:18 |
| fenn | re: winfree dna tiling and error correction schemes | 14:18 |
| kanzure | not quite random seed - but only for practical reasons | 14:19 |
| kanzure | for example, if we had a 20 digit random seed we'd need 2^20 units to be testing | 14:19 |
| fenn | but but but you can use rules to find the optimum fpga configuration for a given physical dna tiling | 14:19 |
| kanzure | that's not fun - so we can use our brains already to constrain the search space | 14:19 |
| kanzure | yeah | 14:19 |
| kanzure | I don't know what you are arguing | 14:20 |
| kanzure | you're just repeating me it seems | 14:20 |
| fenn | neuropods have the same problems as regular bio research | 14:20 |
| kanzure | or are you trying to convince me that wetware should be avoided? | 14:20 |
| fenn | basically i'm saying it's a bad idea | 14:20 |
| fenn | hey what about this - genetically engineered neurons that can report their configuration somehow | 14:21 |
| kanzure | patch clamp technique supposedly retrieves that information | 14:21 |
| fenn | bullshit | 14:21 |
| kanzure | but you're talking about molecular signaling, right? | 14:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: why bullshit? | 14:21 |
| fenn | patch clamp is like poking at stuff with a multimeter | 14:21 |
| fenn | it's not qualitatively the same as getting a readout of the configuration | 14:22 |
| kanzure | yeah, so you then do microfluidic analysis on the contents of the cell at that moment | 14:22 |
| kanzure | that's true | 14:22 |
| kanzure | but what if you're the one who is setting the configuration to some extent | 14:22 |
| kanzure | you're looking for the 'learning rules' | 14:22 |
| fenn | tell me how an intel processor was built by poking at it with a multimeter | 14:22 |
| kanzure | not the actual current configuration - that doesn't matter as much, although in some cases it could | 14:22 |
| kanzure | processors are generated from higher-level language rules and so on | 14:22 |
| kanzure | same thing here - evolutionary history has been working on a 'meta' level, not just neurons really, but the organizational scheme of the brain | 14:23 |
| kanzure | and maybe even just the learning rules | 14:23 |
| kanzure | not so much the physical basis of a giant cerebellum etc hehe | 14:23 |
| fenn | i'd like to see markram simulate a cockroach | 14:24 |
| kanzure | how many neurons? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | he's up to worms at this point apparently | 14:24 |
| kanzure | (although that was 2005/2006) | 14:24 |
| fenn | oh i thought he was doing rats (part of a rat) | 14:24 |
| kanzure | a minicolumn | 14:24 |
| kanzure | there's about a million minicolumns in the neocortex | 14:24 |
| fenn | but with a cockroach running in realtime you can hook it up to your cockroach robot | 14:25 |
| kanzure | the rat minicolumn is 1/10th the size of a hu minicolumn | 14:25 |
| kanzure | yes | 14:25 |
| kanzure | or at least get the information feed from the cockroach, somehow | 14:25 |
| kanzure | there was a moth that was wired up to a robot a while back | 14:25 |
| fenn | sure that's relatively easy | 14:25 |
| kanzure | wait, that was a cockroach | 14:25 |
| kanzure | they had it on one of those 'virtual reality treadmill' setups, except it wasn't virtual reality, just a camera to around the robot | 14:25 |
| kanzure | oops, not a robot | 14:26 |
| kanzure | food here, brb | 14:26 |
| fenn | i saw a (flesh) cockorach driving a robot with wheels | 14:26 |
| fenn | sage math has driven some cool work for compiling python to C (cython, based on pyrex) | 14:30 |
| kanzure | neat | 14:50 |
| kanzure | so, you just use that sort of input and stimulation | 14:50 |
| kanzure | I think that's where I was going with that | 14:50 |
| kanzure | We were going somewhere in our conversation. Oh, I guess I need to bring up the skdb implementation issues re: the 'matter compiler' idea. I'll forward you an email from Eric. | 14:54 |
| kanzure | guess I already did. | 14:55 |
| fenn | i'd love to talk about and catch up on hunting's stuff but i think i should mow the lawn right now | 15:06 |
| fenn | (death of all progress) | 15:07 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:21 |
| kanzure | automate it | 15:21 |
| kanzure | there are lawn bots on ebay for $400 | 15:21 |
| kanzure | just saying. | 15:21 |
| kanzure | I had to show my dad that since he didn't believe me | 15:22 |
| kanzure | doesn't think they are possible or worthwile | 15:22 |
| kanzure | *worthwhile | 15:22 |
| ybit | kanzure: would you mind explaining why i won't need a molecular assembler? | 16:32 |
| kanzure | ybit: A molecular assembler would be great, no doubt about it. But clanking replicators are a good first step too. | 16:32 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_Day <-- DNA Day? Hm. | 16:33 |
| fenn | ybit: by making a working macro-scale replicator you've figured out the principles required, then you have a theory to work with when you try to repeat the process at nano-scale | 16:37 |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:40 | |
| kanzure | Hi nsh. | 16:40 |
| * nsh waves a tenement yard tenticle | 16:40 | |
| nsh | hrmm | 16:41 |
| nsh | what's the name for the phenomenon of positive-feedback in path formation (like over a grass lawn on campus)? | 16:42 |
| nsh | future walkers are (sub/semi)consciously drawn to the path word by previous walkers | 16:42 |
| nsh | if there isn't a term for this effect there should be. in any case, i was just thinking of an extension to the concept in terms of the division (allotment) created by the dividing path. | 16:44 |
| nsh | often when something is discussed, there is a memory effect based on the previously-employed distinctions of earlier discussors | 16:45 |
| kanzure | hm | 16:45 |
| nsh | which again (sub/semi)consciously draws people into repeating the dichotomisation | 16:45 |
| nsh | (came to mind when reading your roadmap -- the statement about type-1 and type-2 transhumanism) | 16:45 |
| kanzure | aha | 16:46 |
| nsh | but it's a thing that's been bobbing about my brain for a few years without anything to anchor it | 16:46 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html | 16:46 |
| kanzure | Okay, I see what you are saying | 16:46 |
| kanzure | The big problem is that the guys who make the paths in the first place; you see, they remember the distinctions they had to make | 16:46 |
| kanzure | They remember what the differences were and so on, | 16:46 |
| kanzure | while others who then have the chance to follow that path, don't necessarily have to do anything but walk it | 16:46 |
| nsh | right, but subsequent users of the path-- exactly | 16:46 |
| kanzure | nsh: re: anchoring, that's kind of like the grounding problem | 16:46 |
| kanzure | One of our projects in here is 'grounding the semantic web' | 16:47 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/exp.html | 16:47 |
| nsh | (a very common difficulty in longstanding discussions) | 16:47 |
| nsh | ah | 16:47 |
| kanzure | sounds like you might be interested in it | 16:48 |
| kanzure | I wrote an essay last night, but fenn dislikes it, so take it with some salt: http://heybryan.org/2008-05-09.html | 16:48 |
| * nsh has to keep tight reins on his interest in these kinds of subjects | 16:48 | |
| nsh | i suffer from combinatorial explosions in ambitious projects ;-/ | 16:49 |
| kanzure | yes, same here | 16:52 |
| kanzure | attention is the primary scarcity | 16:52 |
| kanzure | but I don't suffer for it :) | 16:52 |
| * nsh smiles | 16:53 | |
| kanzure | http://www.autism.org/temple/genius.html An article on autism, genius and programming that I'm reading in the background. But it's somewhat preaching to the choir. | 16:53 |
| kanzure | nsh: Part of my interest in these projects is for brain augmentation so that I *can* pay more attention. | 16:53 |
| nsh | yes, quite :-) | 16:53 |
| nsh | i had a good chat with ward (cunningham) once | 16:55 |
| nsh | i was half-way through writing up an explanation of the next development in the evolution of the document | 16:56 |
| nsh | for him, and i guess i forgot about it | 16:56 |
| kanzure | Page I just added - http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brainstate_augmentation_setup | 16:57 |
| kanzure | Ward Cunningham. Hm. I've heard of him, I don't remember him though. | 16:57 |
| kanzure | I think he might be more popular than Engelbart and Nelson | 16:58 |
| nsh | made the first wiki | 16:58 |
| nsh | really nice guy, from the little i had a chance to see | 16:58 |
| kanzure | oh, | 16:59 |
| kanzure | c2.com ? | 16:59 |
| nsh | right | 16:59 |
| kanzure | good stuff | 16:59 |
| * nsh smiles | 17:01 | |
| kanzure | I have some quotes from c2 on http://heybryan.org/quotes.html but I gathered them back in 2006, so there might be more there by now | 17:04 |
| nsh | did you ever read Douglas Adam's speech on the four ages of sand? | 17:05 |
| nsh | given at a digital biota conference on synthetic life | 17:05 |
| kanzure | shit, no :( | 17:06 |
| kanzure | but I do read Douglas Adams extensively, same with his friends - Pink Floyd, Monty Python, Dawkins, etc. | 17:06 |
| nsh | http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/ worth a read | 17:06 |
| nsh | it might be personal, but whenever i read it, i get the feeling he's saying a lot below the surface level of what he's stating | 17:07 |
| kanzure | re: biota.org | 17:08 |
| kanzure | I like Eugene Leitl's postbiota.org website | 17:08 |
| kanzure | http://postbiota.org/pipermail/lists/tt | 17:08 |
| kanzure | erm | 17:08 |
| kanzure | http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt | 17:08 |
| nsh | nice, thanks | 17:09 |
| nsh | (another 'bookmark all [60] tabs' evening) | 17:10 |
| kanzure | nsh: I do 300+ tabs a night. | 17:10 |
| kanzure | :( | 17:10 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/operaessions_0.jpg | 17:10 |
| * nsh lost his laptop a week last friday night, and by a stroke of amazing fortune had it returned last friday | 17:10 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-01-15-tabs.png | 17:10 |
| nsh | wow, i thought i was bad. i peak at about 100 per session | 17:10 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/Dec28th02006_2.PNG | 17:11 |
| nsh | we should do a history-alignment | 17:11 |
| kanzure | nsh: I peak at 40~ if I am using Firefox. I learned the hard way. | 17:11 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:11 |
| kanzure | fuck. | 17:11 |
| kanzure | I was just talking to Paul Fernhout over at OpenVirgle about this problem | 17:11 |
| kanzure | but also before, a few times in 2006 too | 17:11 |
| nsh | oh? | 17:11 |
| kanzure | I was wondering what the file data format would be | 17:11 |
| nsh | ah, right | 17:11 |
| nsh | yeah | 17:11 |
| kanzure | well, you see, it takes too much energy to do this | 17:11 |
| kanzure | because you have to bookmark everything and reference etc etc | 17:11 |
| nsh | right, that's the problem | 17:12 |
| kanzure | and already it takes Opera about 20 seconds to open up my bookmarking system | 17:12 |
| kanzure | I have a page on this problem | 17:12 |
| kanzure | it's a fundamental problem | 17:12 |
| kanzure | known as overhead ;) | 17:12 |
| * nsh nods | 17:12 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/bookmarking.html | 17:12 |
| kanzure | So that's why I am interested in attention, again. | 17:12 |
| nsh | ideally, every interaction with a the web should add organisational information to it | 17:12 |
| kanzure | of course | 17:12 |
| kanzure | but this is why programmers hate doing documentation | 17:12 |
| kanzure | it's why when you have time to blog, you don't have anything to blog about | 17:12 |
| kanzure | it's why I have hundreds of pages with microscopic writting on it that I scrawl out during school that, alas, I never look back at | 17:13 |
| kanzure | (since I really, really dislike doing the same thing twice) | 17:13 |
| nsh | amen | 17:13 |
| nsh | hmmm | 17:14 |
| kanzure | computational complexity | 17:14 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/recursion.html - which I linked to in the file on the brainstate augmentation article I just made a few moments ago | 17:14 |
| kanzure | (I added a link from http://heybryan.org/interfaces.html to it) | 17:14 |
| nsh | the thing is, most of what we read will be later read by someone else. so, why not harness this in the same way as social security | 17:15 |
| nsh | the next generation of readers helps to organise the trail of the previous | 17:15 |
| nsh | the effect however is cumulative | 17:15 |
| nsh | unlike pension payments | 17:15 |
| kanzure | perhaps | 17:15 |
| nsh | this prevents (individuals) recovering ground while allowing ground to be recovered | 17:15 |
| kanzure | hm | 17:16 |
| kanzure | or | 17:16 |
| kanzure | I was talking earlier today about some ideas on a 'perceptual ecology' (downloading rules for building brains - of the sort that Markram talks about in the vid that we're talking about in ##neuroscience at the moment) - and these could be distributed as easily as genes are sent back and forth over the web | 17:17 |
| nsh | hmmm | 17:17 |
| kanzure | I'll have to upload the logs, I guess, but I also don't expect you to entirely read them thoroughly because of the combinatorial explosion problem | 17:18 |
| nsh | what could be distributed is rules for the topological manipulation of the informational space (landscape) | 17:18 |
| * nsh smiles | 17:18 | |
| kanzure | well, sort of | 17:18 |
| kanzure | the idea is to come up with rules for getting better at making rules for organizing brains and so on | 17:18 |
| kanzure | or other intelligence systems, but brains happen to be a pretty good bet at the moment | 17:18 |
| kanzure | the 2008-05-09.html paper describes some approaches to the singularity / to exponential growth, and it's *not* through ai -- it's through a manufacturing repository like apt-get, it's what fenn and I work on most of the time | 17:19 |
| kanzure | except recently (like today - I have this massive headache and have been avoiding the code) | 17:19 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb is the meta-repository, as described in http://heybryan.org/exp.html and http://heybryan.org/2008-05-09.html and http://oscomak.net/ among others. | 17:20 |
| kanzure | the 'review' link in exp.html is a chunk that was placed in 2008-05-09.html rather successfully, juxtapositioned with the $10 billion USD in value that debian represents, + the intense infrastructure load problems that debian has :) | 17:20 |
| nsh | mmmm | 17:22 |
| * fenn snickers @ 4x repeated autism.org banner | 17:23 | |
| nsh | yeah, i had a good chuckle at that | 17:23 |
| nsh | and, hi :-) | 17:24 |
| nsh | this guy has a nice voice (emergence of intelligent in the neocortical microcircuit video) | 17:24 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: nsh is banned? | 17:24 |
| kanzure | oh | 17:25 |
| kanzure | heh | 17:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: That article doesn't seem to have much new. | 17:25 |
| kanzure | re: the 3D video guy, that's another link entirely. http://www.grandin.com/inc/mind.web.browser.html | 17:26 |
| kanzure | Yeah, same guy. | 17:26 |
| kanzure | Temple Grandin. Hm. | 17:26 |
| fenn | kanzure you could scan/OCR your notes, handwriting recognition is getting pretty good lately | 17:27 |
| fenn | temple grandin is a woman btw | 17:27 |
| kanzure | I tried Google's octex, or whatever, and a few others | 17:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: not a trannie? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | re: OCR, | 17:27 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/ - look at the results. That's state of the art. What type of bullshit is this. | 17:27 |
| kanzure | (down at the bottom) | 17:27 |
| kanzure | nsh: fenn has his own personal theory that any interesting woman is in fact a man in disguise, i.e. a transexual | 17:28 |
| kanzure | Sarah Emm from #electronics is a good example | 17:28 |
| fenn | i can make an exception for autistics | 17:28 |
| kanzure | oh? | 17:28 |
| kanzure | this is good news. | 17:28 |
| fenn | nsh your grass path sounds similar to electrical arc initiation | 17:30 |
| fenn | might get more intellectual theory around that | 17:30 |
| nsh | aye, good idea | 17:30 |
| kanzure | nsh: oh, speaking of paths and brainsynchs, http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Getting_up_to_speed but it's kind of outdated by a month or two | 17:30 |
| nsh | got | 17:32 |
| nsh | nice "the butterflies of the cerebal cortex" | 17:33 |
| fenn | re: "rules for getting better at making rules" this reminds me of engelbart's bootstrapping by making knowledge repositories that enable making better knowledge repositories | 17:33 |
| fenn | but personally i don't have the social-animal bent required for understanding political incompatibilities and how to prevent them with software | 17:35 |
| kanzure | how so? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | political incompatabilities with what? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | nsh: ok, just typed up some notes on brainsynch - http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brainsynch apparently I hadn't put up any text on such a thing on the wiki. pretty weird for me | 17:36 |
| fenn | between people/groups of people working on the same project | 17:36 |
| fenn | see: wikipedia clusterfuck | 17:36 |
| nsh | antagonism of vision | 17:36 |
| kanzure | hm | 17:37 |
| kanzure | fenn, I don't understand | 17:37 |
| fenn | christ with the brainsynch thing, its hard enough to even get your own stuff down on paper | 17:37 |
| kanzure | this is very simply solved with software | 17:37 |
| fenn | s/paper/bits/ | 17:37 |
| kanzure | I thought that git would be the solution | 17:37 |
| kanzure | just do a fork of the metarepo/skdb/oscomak/wikipedia | 17:37 |
| kanzure | (wikipedia, admittedly, may always remain dry and in an eternal cesspool (although with some awesome parts, yes)) | 17:38 |
| fenn | git is an elegant way to sidestep a lot of political thrashing, but its only at one level (the physical layer if you will) | 17:38 |
| kanzure | ah, so you're talking about the social biases really | 17:38 |
| fenn | yes i suppose (not sure what that really means) | 17:38 |
| kanzure | even if you split and fork it, people might learn about it and get upset | 17:38 |
| kanzure | but didn't you say earlier today | 17:38 |
| fenn | well with git you're supposed to for it by default | 17:38 |
| kanzure | that you want to be able to take your space habitats and just go away when retards start thrashing you? | 17:38 |
| fenn | to fork it* | 17:39 |
| nsh | mmmm | 17:39 |
| nsh | massively single-player collaborative knowledge | 17:39 |
| kanzure | nsh: heh | 17:39 |
| kanzure | nsh: nethack on steroids | 17:39 |
| kanzure | as if it wasn't already enough | 17:39 |
| * nsh smiles | 17:39 | |
| fenn | yes and that's the beauty - you're sposed to fork a space habitat for fastest exponential growth | 17:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: so then I think you already knew your solution :) | 17:39 |
| fenn | i.. what? | 17:39 |
| kanzure | huh? | 17:39 |
| fenn | who are you and what are you doing in my irc channel! | 17:40 |
| * kanzure 's brain explodes | 17:40 | |
| fenn | srsly what do you mean "i think you already knew your solution"? | 17:40 |
| kanzure | well, you said that you didn't understand how to deal with political incompatabilities | 17:40 |
| kanzure | but yet you already were mentioning forking earlier today | 17:40 |
| nsh | i think he meant that forking can (partially) resolve political differences | 17:40 |
| kanzure | and that seems to be the way to deal with those more 'violent' problems | 17:40 |
| fenn | nsh: it's a way to sidestep political differences | 17:40 |
| fenn | ok i'll concede that i have been working on political issues and just didnt know it | 17:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://canonizer.com/ ? but I don't consider this to be all that good | 17:41 |
| kanzure | I mean, you just can't poll for opinions like that | 17:41 |
| kanzure | not in such a centralized top-down system | 17:41 |
| fenn | guess this goes back to engelbart and "structured argumentation" | 17:41 |
| kanzure | Brent Allsop just doesn't get it | 17:41 |
| kanzure | (but is otherwise a good guy :)) | 17:42 |
| fenn | hmmm yeah it would be nice to have certain "located in one place" perspectives on a distributd "opinion layer" of the internet | 17:42 |
| kanzure | eh | 17:43 |
| kanzure | but then you get into Wikipedian NPOV territory | 17:43 |
| kanzure | "this is the official view" | 17:43 |
| fenn | but how do you prevent things from turning into a slashdot neverending stream of idiocy and repetition | 17:43 |
| fenn | never said anything about official view | 17:43 |
| fenn | just "this is joe's survey of topic 1234" | 17:43 |
| kanzure | I think that this is what Paul was talking to me about a few days ago | 17:43 |
| kanzure | he was trying to get me to understand that refactoring doesn't entirely suck | 17:44 |
| kanzure | and I was fighting him about that for a while | 17:44 |
| kanzure | until I realized that he's basically right | 17:44 |
| fenn | "these are the methods i used to find opinion and arguments about 1234" | 17:44 |
| * nsh nods | 17:44 | |
| kanzure | at some point you're going to have to do an integration of the different thoughts and political views | 17:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: right | 17:44 |
| kanzure | at some point you're going to have to show how those methods are similar on a low level | 17:44 |
| kanzure | and then find an equivalency | 17:44 |
| kanzure | but doing this with all of the overhead? jeesh | 17:44 |
| kanzure | painful | 17:44 |
| nsh | fenn, you can always go from a pov->npov or opionion->factual-statement, or subjective->objective via abstraction and contexualisation | 17:44 |
| fenn | what overhead? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, data entry to insert the procedures to arrive at opinions and so on | 17:45 |
| kanzure | hopefully we could record that via brain imaging or something | 17:45 |
| kanzure | (one day) | 17:45 |
| fenn | nsh: i dont believe in NPOV | 17:45 |
| fenn | or "truth" or "factual statement" | 17:45 |
| kanzure | nsh: the true direction is 'objective'(unknown)->subjective | 17:45 |
| kanzure | http://extropy.org/ on subjectivity | 17:45 |
| * nsh smiles | 17:45 | |
| nsh | both good points | 17:45 |
| kanzure | http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm | 17:45 |
| nsh | i have very long-winded and (currently) largely-tangential views on this subject that i won't go into at the moment | 17:46 |
| fenn | kanzure: nah there have been many proposals for opinion layers, none of them have taken off for some reason | 17:46 |
| kanzure | nsh: can you supercompress the ideas into a single sentence, with as much dense terminology as possible? | 17:46 |
| kanzure | so that we can at least get a hint | 17:47 |
| fenn | heh | 17:47 |
| kanzure | fenn: I don't know if we *need* to have opinion integration layers anyway | 17:47 |
| kanzure | I certainly agree that having people follow our 'arguments' and so on is a good idea | 17:47 |
| fenn | the heteronormative reintegration of emergent noumenal philosocialism | 17:47 |
| kanzure | awesome | 17:47 |
| kanzure | how do you pronounce heterogenous, just a random question | 17:47 |
| kanzure | I was debating this in my calculus 2 class the other day. | 17:48 |
| nsh | het and erogenous like the zones | 17:48 |
| fenn | het urro jean eyus | 17:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: see, I do it more like the biologists | 17:48 |
| nsh | i stress on second syllable | 17:48 |
| kanzure | heter on gen ous | 17:48 |
| kanzure | (gen as in genetic) | 17:48 |
| fenn | you spelled it wrong | 17:48 |
| kanzure | yes, this is for pronunciation | 17:48 |
| fenn | heterogeneous | 17:49 |
| kanzure | okay, that extra e sure | 17:49 |
| kanzure | the dictionary in the classroom had both pronunciations, but I am finding it hard to update the way I say it | 17:49 |
| * fenn crunches through some links | 17:51 | |
| fenn | definition of extropy seems flawed - information is usually attributed to entropy | 17:51 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:51 |
| nsh | (kazure: "the exclusivity of subjectivity is epiphenomenal to the value of logic employed. in higher degrees of logic than the aristotelian-baconian 1T2 (using Post's notation for 1 value permitted of two possible), identity becomes less self-same (more transparent) and the ratio of subject-in-object object-in-subject changes) | 17:51 |
| fenn | maybe they meant knowledge | 17:52 |
| kanzure | fenn: I don't know why they include 'order' | 17:52 |
| kanzure | Lee Corbin, an extropian supposedly, has had troubles with this concept | 17:52 |
| kanzure | he disagrees with me on "entropy is not disorder" and so on | 17:52 |
| nsh | i would suggest everyone does | 17:52 |
| kanzure | he says that my views go against most of it | 17:53 |
| fenn | oh well | 17:53 |
| nsh | though there are different degress of recognition and admition of htis | 17:53 |
| nsh | *this | 17:53 |
| kanzure | nsh: http://www.entropysite.com/entropy_isnot_disorder.html ENTROPY IS NOT DISORDER. | 17:53 |
| * fenn too lazy to correct wingnuts on ideology | 17:53 | |
| kanzure | entropy is, most simply, used energy | 17:53 |
| kanzure | inaccessible energy | 17:53 |
| kanzure | due to the limits of the lightsphere, say. | 17:53 |
| fenn | STOP ALL SPACEFLIGHT NOW! | 17:53 |
| kanzure | haha | 17:53 |
| kanzure | Negentropists believe that entropy is the flaw of the universe :( | 17:53 |
| nsh | kanzure, you don't want to get me started on thermodynamics, either | 17:54 |
| kanzure | nsh: As for your condensed version, I don't see why you have to incorporate other degrees of logic to explain that identity topic. Identity is actually what Lee Corbin is debating when he questions my views on entropy/extropy/enthalpy. | 17:54 |
| fenn | oh, "space exploration" sry | 17:54 |
| kanzure | overcomingbias is a good blog on that. | 17:54 |
| kanzure | sort of. | 17:54 |
| kanzure | better just read Jef Allbright instead | 17:54 |
| kanzure | http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-April/042410.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure | http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-April/042683.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure | http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-February/041171.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure | http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/second-law.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure | http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-February/041203.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure | http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-February/041211.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure | (taken from the emails I sent Lee) | 17:55 |
| fenn | nsh: can i make a possibly inaccurate paraphrase? "there are varying levels of subjectivity" yes/no? | 17:55 |
| nsh | kanzure, the two laws that define binary propositional logic are the law of the excluded middle (all is either A or not-A) and the law of non-contradiction (no A is not-A). these laws implicitly define the allowable kind of identity in the logical system | 17:56 |
| nsh | fenn, you might say that | 17:56 |
| nsh | gotthard gunther writes realtively informatively on the connection of this restriction to the grounding problem in science | 17:58 |
| kanzure | interesting | 17:58 |
| kanzure | thanks for grounding it back to what I was talking about | 17:58 |
| nsh | though his particular approach to multivalued logic, while being positive in that he doesn't immediately interpret them relative to truth value, are disappointing, in my opinion at least) | 17:58 |
| nsh | (as he retains bimodality, opting to distribute the two values across the multi-valued matrix employed). but again, mostly digressive | 17:59 |
| nsh | ah | 18:06 |
| kanzure | hm? | 18:07 |
| nsh | http://www.vordenker.de/ggphilosophy/gg_cyb_ontology.pdf bottom of page 8 | 18:07 |
| kanzure | nsh: what's your background? | 18:07 |
| nsh | (last paragraph of page 8 onwards) | 18:07 |
| kanzure | cybernetic ontology for the win :) | 18:07 |
| nsh | oh, i'm like you, i guess: aspiring polymath | 18:07 |
| fenn | aspiring robot-god :P | 18:08 |
| kanzure | via synbiosafe? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | ah, that's right | 18:08 |
| kanzure | we were talking about it earlier today | 18:08 |
| * nsh nods | 18:08 | |
| kanzure | re: GMO bullshit | 18:08 |
| nsh | right | 18:08 |
| nsh | i'm not a mind-reader yet :-) | 18:08 |
| kanzure | hehe, "Haha! You can't pay, so let's steal your food!" | 18:08 |
| kanzure | "Then you'll *have to* pay!" | 18:08 |
| kanzure | "But we will die." | 18:08 |
| nsh | momento hubris | 18:08 |
| kanzure | "Huh?" | 18:08 |
| fenn | sound more like a problem with assholes in government than GMO | 18:10 |
| kanzure | "the reason why the sentient ego is not met anywhere within our world view is because ... it is that world." | 18:10 |
| kanzure | "it is identical with the whole and therefore can't be contained as a part of it" | 18:10 |
| kanzure | yep | 18:10 |
| kanzure | but at least now I have some philosophers to cite (other than Leibniz and Allbright?) | 18:11 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz | 18:11 |
| fenn | almost correct, should be "it is that world view" | 18:11 |
| nsh | but... | 18:11 |
| nsh | it can only not be contained within itself | 18:11 |
| nsh | when the order or logical type is below aleph-null | 18:12 |
| fenn | speak english for fuck's sake | 18:12 |
| nsh | as that is the first cardinal which can be put into a one-2-one correspondence with its proper subsets | 18:12 |
| kanzure | fenn: yeah, I'm just copying because it's an image, not plaintext, and whoever uploaded the file should be shot | 18:12 |
| nsh | fenn, when you have at least a countable infinity of possible values for each statement | 18:12 |
| kanzure | countable v. uncountable is a touchy subject | 18:12 |
| kanzure | also, cite some Godel here re: the system can't represent itself without inconsistencies, etc. etc. | 18:13 |
| fenn | wtf does that have to do with how ego fits into subjectivity? | 18:13 |
| nsh | (assumed you were telling me to talk english; apologies if you weren't, and if you were, for that matter) | 18:13 |
| fenn | (i was) | 18:13 |
| nsh | well, a grounded congitive system has a self-contained represntation of the universe | 18:14 |
| fenn | (universe is not infinite) | 18:14 |
| nsh | within which exists a representation (understanding) of itself | 18:14 |
| kanzure | I don't know if it is 'ego' but at least the Jeff Hawkings-style "magical sauce" that makes you think you have unique experience | 18:14 |
| kanzure | erm | 18:14 |
| kanzure | bad verbalization on my part | 18:14 |
| fenn | kanzure: re "... it is that world." did whoever wrote that say "world view originally"? | 18:15 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, they said "world picture" | 18:16 |
| fenn | ok, cool | 18:16 |
| nsh | (i would hold that godel's consistency results are only proven wrt to true-false binary logic and with the assumption of church-turing) | 18:16 |
| * fenn pats world on back for sucking slightly less | 18:16 | |
| kanzure | hehe | 18:16 |
| fenn | was that leibniz ? | 18:16 |
| kanzure | no, this is Gunther apparently | 18:16 |
| kanzure | nsh: hm. didn't think of that before. | 18:17 |
| * kanzure still has the headache. | 18:17 | |
| nsh | :-/ | 18:17 |
| fenn | too much text | 18:17 |
| -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@195.216.210.2] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:17 | |
| fenn | ah. we meet at last | 18:18 |
| * fenn draws his sword | 18:18 | |
| * nsh solemnly prepares to referree the dual | 18:18 | |
| Phreedom | guys you are evil | 18:18 |
| fenn | epiphenomenal logical assumption of church-turing hypothesis assures your doom! | 18:19 |
| kanzure | Hi Phreedom. | 18:19 |
| nsh | your riposte, sir, it will not stop this man's steel! i pray of you, draw | 18:19 |
| kanzure | Why's that? | 18:19 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: hi. they're going to kill someone ;) | 18:19 |
| fenn | Phreedom: unfortunately you were oblivious to being attacked. | 18:19 |
| nsh | you became food for a grue | 18:20 |
| fenn | game over | 18:20 |
| * Phreedom hits restart | 18:20 | |
| nsh | arrghgh | 18:20 |
| fenn | hi. so, i hear you're building a replicator | 18:20 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 18:20 |
| nsh | i'm meellltiiinng | 18:20 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/hplusroadmap/2008-05-10-%23hplusroadmap.html | 18:20 |
| nsh | anyway.. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | That's today's log, Phreedom. You were mentioned. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | at least, yesterday. | 18:20 |
| fenn | care to describe your idea/plan for us? | 18:21 |
| fenn | kanzure: do i understand correctly that canonizer.org only got 14 votes for "what is god?"? | 18:22 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: not much I can show atm, except that right now there are 2 people working full time on making home fabrication possible | 18:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: It is not a popular website. Like the fact that the entire framework sucks. | 18:23 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: We're doing it in here too. | 18:23 |
| fenn | that ikiwiki trick of hidden div's would be great for showing edit buttons in wiki-ish situations like canonizer | 18:23 |
| fenn | Phreedom: are you limited by patent considerations? | 18:23 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: the plan is to develop cheap interferometers and piezo dries | 18:23 |
| Phreedom | fenn: no | 18:23 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:23 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: Are you one who can withstand ridiculously dense wording? I have a description of the project here: http://heybryan.org/exp.html | 18:24 |
| fenn | heh | 18:24 |
| fenn | basically we dont know how to do it, so we're making a program that will tell us how | 18:24 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: I didn't read it yet, but it sounds all too similar to what I have in my head :) | 18:25 |
| fenn | it mostly boils down to a matter of how you define "replication" | 18:25 |
| nsh | can you ellaborate, fenn? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: Yep. So I've been working with NSS, WTA, deity, OSCOMAK, Virgle, and a few other groups. Basically we're mimicing the debian apt-get architecture ... | 18:25 |
| fenn | nsh: well, a flame is not exactly replication is it? nor is an apple falling on the ground ("self assembly") | 18:25 |
| * nsh nods | 18:26 | |
| fenn | kanzure: the idea was to mimic debian's social structure (which gave rise to apt-get) | 18:26 |
| fenn | specifically they have a guiding set of principles which are really well thought out | 18:26 |
| fenn | but nobody will give a shit if we dont have 'the goods' | 18:27 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: I do have some nice ideas regarding apt-manufacture, but it's really too early too discuss | 18:27 |
| kanzure | We disagree. :) | 18:27 |
| * fenn prods | 18:27 | |
| * Phreedom is trying to stick with practical approach | 18:27 | |
| fenn | spit it out, n00b | 18:27 |
| Phreedom | that is discuss stuff I can make in 1-2 year | 18:27 |
| Phreedom | *years | 18:27 |
| kanzure | right | 18:27 |
| Phreedom | everything else is cool but too far away | 18:28 |
| kanzure | get out. | 18:28 |
| kanzure | joking :) | 18:28 |
| Phreedom | but piezos and interferometers will make STM, AFM and such stuff really cheap an accessible | 18:28 |
| Phreedom | *and | 18:28 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:28 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/graphene.html | 18:28 |
| * Phreedom gotta learn to type | 18:28 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html | 18:28 |
| kanzure | $100 DIY STM projects + graphene manufacturing for circuits | 18:28 |
| fenn | how do you get from AFM to macro-scale objects? or do you? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | So that's why I am interested in a piezoelectric + solid state self-replicator, something involving those components. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | The idea is to use the AFM nanolithography technqiues to make the arms and the components, and then use the piezo parts to move them into place (assembly) | 18:29 |
| fenn | honestly this doesnt sound like a 1-2 year project at all | 18:29 |
| kanzure | probably sheet-based, although my diagrams showed nanotube arms (which aren't that hard with graphene) | 18:29 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM_nanolithography | 18:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: Yep. So I think that he's bullshitting us with the 'practical' statement. | 18:29 |
| nsh | oh | 18:29 |
| nsh | probably an aside | 18:29 |
| kanzure | thus my "Get out" comment. | 18:29 |
| nsh | but what are your-guys' take on memristors? | 18:30 |
| kanzure | ah, I saw that in the news recently | 18:30 |
| kanzure | it was a combination of transistor + capacitor + resistor, right? | 18:30 |
| fenn | uh, whats a memristor | 18:30 |
| * Phreedom plans to have piezos and interferometers this year | 18:30 | |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor | 18:30 |
| nsh | fenn, it's like the "missing circuit element" in electronics | 18:30 |
| nsh | a resistor that has a memory of the charge that has passed through it | 18:30 |
| nsh | you can use them to make transistors and they scale very well, apparantly | 18:30 |
| kanzure | ''. Specifically engineered memristors provide controllable resistance useful for switching current. In other cases, memristance theory is used as a mathematical model for empirically observed phenomena. The definition of the memristor is based solely on fundamental circuit variables, similarly to the resistor, capacitor, and inductor. Unlike those more familiar elements, memristors may be described by any of a variety of time-var | 18:31 |
| fenn | nsh: it's a nano-abacus? | 18:31 |
| fenn | i dont get it, why do they specifically abandon the lumped-element model? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | "HP prototyped a crossbar latch memory using the devices that can fit 100 gigabits in a square centimeter.[" | 18:32 |
| kanzure | ""One concern is that the fundamental elements should be linear devices, which represent different cases of general AC impedance, or at least that an ideal linear device should be possible. A memristor should then be classified as a non-linear two terminal device, instead of as a "basic element"[23], because a perfectly linear memristor is equivalent to an ideal resistor. | 18:32 |
| kanzure | " | 18:32 |
| kanzure | In response to these comments, those who support memristor as the fourth element suggest that fundamental circuit element is defined as a passive device characterized by a specific relation between two of the following: voltage, current, charge and/or magnetic flux. It cannot have a direct relation to time. Whether the parameter linking the two is a constant value or a special function is not crucial. From this point of view, the | 18:32 |
| kanzure | I don't get it. | 18:33 |
| fenn | it sounds like the electrical properties change the physical shape which changes the electrical properties (like transformers buzzing, or a spark gap arcing) | 18:35 |
| nsh | right, fenn | 18:35 |
| fenn | nano-abacus makes so much more sense | 18:35 |
| kanzure | oh | 18:36 |
| nsh | [[[ | 18:36 |
| nsh | There are four fundamental circuit variables; current, voltage, charge, and flux. | 18:36 |
| nsh | We can define the relationships between charge and current and between flux and voltage. (charge as an integral of current, flux as an integral of voltage over time) | 18:36 |
| nsh | A resistor provides a function to relate voltage and current. | 18:36 |
| nsh | A capacitor provides a function to relate charge and voltage. | 18:36 |
| nsh | An inductor provides a function to relate flux and current. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | that's exactly what my piezo + field effect device would do | 18:36 |
| nsh | Until now we did not know how to construct a passive device which would provide a function relating charge and flux. The only remaining combination of these fundamental variables. | 18:36 |
| nsh | ]]] -http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/30/211228&from=rss | 18:36 |
| kanzure | if you have a piezo move the metal that makes the field effect to block the channel (down which electrons would flow to the emitter of the transistor), then you have that property | 18:36 |
| * nsh smiles | 18:36 | |
| kanzure | so is that really all it is | 18:36 |
| kanzure | nsh: can you do me a favor? | 18:37 |
| nsh | sure | 18:37 |
| kanzure | last week I finally had enough of it, and now when I read Slashdot I copy/paste my notes to the wiki instead of to my own personal logs (I have 20 MB of plaintext logs :() | 18:37 |
| nsh | mostly, but it's a continuous change in resistance | 18:37 |
| kanzure | so | 18:37 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Slashdot | 18:37 |
| kanzure | if you read an article, please do something like I'm doing there | 18:37 |
| kanzure | I extract most of the good, insightful comments (whether they are rated that or not) | 18:37 |
| kanzure | http://slashdot.org/~the_kanzure is me | 18:37 |
| fenn | kanzure: how's the whole wiki thing working out for you? i have a hard time managing wikis once they get above a certain level of complexity | 18:38 |
| fenn | categories/tags/structure always seems like an afterthought | 18:39 |
| kanzure | right | 18:39 |
| kanzure | same problem as always | 18:39 |
| fenn | (not to mention RCS shenanigans) | 18:39 |
| kanzure | if anything it's useful because of the RCS though | 18:39 |
| fenn | can you put hnb into git? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | if I had skdb up and running, I'd be dumping this into projects | 18:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: that'd be a smart thing to do | 18:39 |
| fenn | ugh please no! | 18:39 |
| kanzure | but I wouldn't recommend hnb any more | 18:39 |
| kanzure | needs better interface | 18:39 |
| fenn | skdb isnt a general purpose knowledge repository | 18:39 |
| fenn | sekdb* | 18:40 |
| fenn | i think your acronym is misleading | 18:40 |
| kanzure | fenn: within the dot-skdb files, there's both natural language information, and then the semantic + coding. Remember? There were certain packages that have to be turned into the code | 18:40 |
| nsh | kanzure, are you dating by the date of the article or when you added it? | 18:40 |
| nsh | (on the slashdot page) | 18:40 |
| kanzure | nsh: adding it, it seems | 18:40 |
| kanzure | nsh: but feel free to do whatever | 18:40 |
| nsh | ok | 18:40 |
| kanzure | fenn: so while I don't suggest poisoning the repositories with useless projects that don't have any code, | 18:41 |
| kanzure | I am also not about to suggest that packaging related content together is a bad idea | 18:41 |
| kanzure | not at all .. | 18:41 |
| kanzure | if anything my zips on the server illustrate good behavior practices | 18:41 |
| kanzure | now I just need to chug through the papers and make formal specifications for the related projects | 18:41 |
| kanzure | don't need somebody else to repeat the same work I've put into it (collecting information, caches, etc.) | 18:41 |
| fenn | ok how bout, sekdb is a set of DTD-like autospec code modules, and the whole thing is a subset of "social knowledge database" | 18:41 |
| kanzure | oh, uhh | 18:42 |
| kanzure | I guess | 18:42 |
| fenn | like docbook is a set of sgml | 18:42 |
| fenn | specifically for documentation | 18:42 |
| fenn | sekdb is a set of skdb, specifically for engineering projects | 18:42 |
| kanzure | but if you were to agx-get --total install <some project>, that should also mean downloading some of the cached information - like the Wikipedia article on it if the package maintainers did that | 18:42 |
| kanzure | aha | 18:42 |
| fenn | subset* | 18:42 |
| kanzure | but still, content is in the package, but is filtered out in downloads by default, unless the user wants it | 18:43 |
| fenn | i guess you could just throw it on a branch | 18:43 |
| kanzure | yep | 18:43 |
| kanzure | hey, I need to run | 18:43 |
| fenn | put all extended documentation on a git branch | 18:43 |
| nsh | damn html | 18:43 |
| kanzure | http://freebirds.com/ is where I'm heading | 18:43 |
| fenn | nice chattin today :) | 18:43 |
| kanzure | sure | 18:43 |
| kanzure | I'll be back | 18:43 |
| kanzure | after I raid Half Price Books :) | 18:43 |
| kanzure | nsh: really quick, any book suggestions? | 18:44 |
| nsh | have fun | 18:44 |
| nsh | uh | 18:44 |
| nsh | mmm | 18:44 |
| kanzure | I have stacks of hundreds of textbooks here, but I'm always looking for more Stuff. | 18:44 |
| fenn | ishmael by daniel quinn | 18:44 |
| kanzure | James Clement over at WTA recommended the Lucifer Principle, but I've read a book that covers the same topic | 18:44 |
| kanzure | Daniel Quinn is a familiar name | 18:44 |
| nsh | ishmael is pretty good | 18:44 |
| kanzure | somebody has been recommending somebody named Wilson Anton or something? | 18:44 |
| nsh | damn, can't think of anything off the top of my head | 18:44 |
| kanzure | Double Helix or something? | 18:44 |
| fenn | robert anton wilson - prometheus rising | 18:45 |
| kanzure | sure | 18:45 |
| kanzure | okay | 18:45 |
| nsh | Charles Anton Wilson | 18:45 |
| kanzure | haha | 18:45 |
| nsh | i read Spin, that was good | 18:45 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/img_8032.jpg for 1/2 of my bookshelf | 18:45 |
| nsh | prometheus rising is also a classic | 18:45 |
| kanzure | cya | 18:45 |
| kanzure | somebody tell nsh, ybit, Phreedom and Vedestin to join the damn mailing list oto | 18:46 |
| kanzure | *too | 18:46 |
| fenn | mailing list is at http://heybryan.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hplusroadmap | 18:47 |
| Phreedom | joined | 18:49 |
| ybit | i'm pretty sure i've already joined once :) | 18:50 |
| * nsh joined | 18:51 | |
| nsh | , hates html | 18:51 |
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| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 20:52 | |
| [ drazak] [ fenn] [ kanzure] [ krebs] [ nsh] [ Vedestin] | 20:52 | |
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| kanzure | Hi all. | 21:56 |
| Vedestin | gday | 21:56 |
| kanzure | brain organization - http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Int6_neo.html | 21:58 |
| kanzure | I picked up a copy of E.M. Macphail, Brain and Intelligence in Vertebrates (1982) | 21:58 |
| kanzure | and Schey's Introduction to Manufacturing Processes. Wasn't easy, there was a stack of maybe ten texts on manufacturing stuff, but they were all ridiculously out of date. | 21:59 |
| kanzure | The 1991 engineering/drafting book was talking about the FUTURE OF DRAFTING. It said something like, "in three to five years, sweat bands will be able to extrapolate 3D images from the electrical signals from our brain." | 21:59 |
| Vedestin | wtf | 22:01 |
| Vedestin | really? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | yeah ... | 22:02 |
| Vedestin | why did they think that? | 22:02 |
| kanzure | And I figured something out while flipping through those 10 texts. They are approaching the whole ordeal from a 'make a building [that happens to be a factory]" perspective. They didn't recognize the fundamental process theoretic nature of manufacturing/programming. | 22:03 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: dunno, it's all sorts of crazy people. | 22:03 |
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| fenn | the FUTURE OF DRAFTING - no drafting at all, really | 23:06 |
| fenn | it's the ultimate in ephemeralization | 23:06 |
| fenn | kanzure: there is no process theory of manufacturing/programming (yet) | 23:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: uh, cybernetics | 23:09 |
| kanzure | systems engineering | 23:09 |
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| fenn | The evolution of Systems Engineering as it continues to this day, comprises development and identification of new methods and modelling techniques: methods that can aid in better comprehension of engineering systems as they grow more complex. | 23:19 |
| fenn | this is all just management crap | 23:20 |
| fenn | the only processes they're modeling are how to boss people around | 23:21 |
| fenn | ooo nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg | 23:32 |
| fenn | kinda looks like the debian logo eh? | 23:32 |
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| kanzure | fenn: back when I was introduced into systems engineering, it was more about complexity science | 23:36 |
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| kanzure | complex systems, design principles, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts (in some cases), etc. | 23:36 |
| kanzure | systems engineering == cybernetics, IMHO, and the management bullshit is simply because that's what people who want to make money like to write about | 23:36 |
| fenn | more like applied cybernetics | 23:39 |
| fenn | i'm a student of the whole sort of general mish-mash | 23:40 |
| fenn | gah vernor vinge cant be the only person who ever thought of a 100ksec day (besides me) | 23:51 |
| kanzure | including the business side of things? | 23:51 |
| kanzure | why 100ksec in particular ? | 23:52 |
| fenn | it's slightly longer than 24 hours | 23:52 |
| fenn | and its a nice round number | 23:52 |
| fenn | here's some reasons why it's a good idea even for normal people http://www.dbeat.com/28/ | 23:53 |
| fenn | but in particular, i have this problem where i'm not synched to sunlight, and its easier to stay up longer (in order to fit myself to a predictable schedule) than to go to sleep earlier | 23:53 |
| kanzure | yep | 23:53 |
| kanzure | if things worked out for us, I don't think we'd stick to a schedule anyway | 23:54 |
| kanzure | I found myself up at four in the morning today, for example | 23:54 |
| kanzure | I don't mind it realyl | 23:54 |
| kanzure | *really | 23:54 |
| kanzure | as long as I get my stuff done :) | 23:54 |
| fenn | also, it's how i'd time my space colony | 23:54 |
| kanzure | my inbox has been slow today, nobody is feeding me :( | 23:55 |
| fenn | maybe you should clean up that mess of a website you keep around | 23:56 |
| kanzure | I was thinking of doing a recursion through http://utexas.edu/ for all courses offered | 23:57 |
| kanzure | or at least run a wget -r | 23:57 |
| kanzure | on all of the syllabuses | 23:57 |
| kanzure | and then dump this into a giant wiki page | 23:57 |
| kanzure | (+ html2wiki somewhere in the pipeline there) | 23:57 |
| kanzure | hm | 23:58 |
| kanzure | what would I do on the site? | 23:58 |
| ybit | going offline for a bit since there's a tornado nearby | 23:59 |
| Vedestin | lol, tornado | 23:59 |
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