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| -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help | 13:05 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] | 13:05 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 13:05 | |
| [ drazak] [ fenn] [ krebs] [ Vedestin] [ ybit] | 13:05 | |
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| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 13:06 | |
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| kanzure | http://www.physicsforums.com/library.php | 17:59 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | hm, UT Austin just emailed me saying that they are cancelling my housing contract | 18:06 |
| kanzure | but I never had a housing contract with them | 18:06 |
| kanzure | So I'm rather confused. | 18:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: People are telling me that I should send graduation invitations to everybody I know. But I don't think they realize how many people I actually know ... | 18:36 |
| kanzure | gmail tells me it's 780~, but I know that's not true since it doesn't include the people I personally email through my mail client (only those through gmail) | 18:40 |
| kanzure | (through the gmail http interface) | 18:40 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/2008/05/index.html updates | 19:17 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/2008/05/12#2008-05-12_skdb_update | 19:41 |
| fenn | list = [1, 2, 3] | 20:36 |
| fenn | list.add(4) | 20:37 |
| fenn | erm, list.append(4) | 20:37 |
| fenn | list[0:2] == [1,2] | 20:38 |
| kanzure | well I feel like a dick | 20:40 |
| kanzure | that's easy | 20:40 |
| kanzure | btw, to what extent do we want to do dependency stuff | 20:40 |
| kanzure | I think our previous answer was "not really" - since the only dependency you should need is the one specified at the top | 20:40 |
| kanzure | so when you download any new file, you just check that one dependency | 20:40 |
| kanzure | since nothing here requires more than one file (the class) to read up the object | 20:41 |
| kanzure | right? | 20:41 |
| kanzure | hrm | 20:41 |
| kanzure | I guess there are some metadata files that would *suggest* downloading other metadata files at a minimum | 20:41 |
| kanzure | yes? | 20:41 |
| fenn | you can look at all the !!python/object tags to find dependencies? or do you mean inter-artifact dependencies | 20:41 |
| kanzure | I mean !!python/object tags for dependencies, and inter-artifact dependencies as well | 20:42 |
| kanzure | the !! is obviously a single dependency that's going to be there no matter what | 20:42 |
| kanzure | hm, dependency specs are kinda like a tagging cloud of dependencies. just thought of that | 20:42 |
| kanzure | it would be interesting to search for packages that depend on other packages in debian | 20:42 |
| kanzure | "search for depends on: kde-desktop, kbounce" | 20:42 |
| kanzure | *search for "depends on": prog1, prog2, .. | 20:43 |
| kanzure | *dependent on | 20:43 |
| kanzure | there we go | 20:43 |
| fenn | apt-depends i think | 20:43 |
| kanzure | neat | 20:44 |
| kanzure | I'll have to try that out | 20:44 |
| fenn | all the tree visualization stuf is horrible | 20:44 |
| fenn | apt-rdepends | 20:44 |
| kanzure | hm, so I guess inter-artifact dependencies can be specified by a further data structure (an updated metadata file) | 20:44 |
| kanzure | and therefore we don't have to mess with it right now | 20:44 |
| kanzure | hurray | 20:44 |
| fenn | also you can use debfoster, which i find easier to understand | 20:45 |
| fenn | but only works on installed packages | 20:45 |
| fenn | inter-artifact dependencies also depends (ha) on how much you're building from scratch vs buying | 20:46 |
| kanzure | btw, you get the scratch-vs-buying issue right ? | 20:46 |
| fenn | no? | 20:46 |
| kanzure | wait | 20:46 |
| kanzure | stupid question | 20:46 |
| kanzure | sure you do | 20:46 |
| kanzure | Gingery v. buy it at a store | 20:46 |
| fenn | i figure it as part of your 'personality vector' | 20:46 |
| fenn | are you a: banker, lawyer, doctor, carpenter, farmer, blacksmith | 20:47 |
| fenn | i forget the choices now | 20:47 |
| kanzure | eh? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | no, I mean, | 20:47 |
| kanzure | Ideally skdb will be grounded in complete, total 'diy from scratch' | 20:47 |
| kanzure | but the fact is that a lot of the information is hidden behind financial walls | 20:47 |
| fenn | not gonna happen | 20:47 |
| kanzure | yes, we could do it from scratch if we wanted to | 20:47 |
| kanzure | but that would take way too long | 20:47 |
| kanzure | we don't have that sort of time | 20:47 |
| fenn | even gingery had certain assumptions about what was available (scrap aluminum, threaded rod, bolts, taps, dril bits, files) | 20:48 |
| kanzure | yeah :( | 20:48 |
| fenn | knowing how to make a surface plate is interesting but not terribly useful | 20:49 |
| fenn | or is it? | 20:49 |
| kanzure | I'm just saying | 20:49 |
| kanzure | this is the idea of the clay clanking replicator | 20:49 |
| kanzure | of using the materials *right there* | 20:49 |
| fenn | grounded in dirt | 20:50 |
| fenn | ninety million miles out | 20:51 |
| fenn | today all i did was watch other people work | 20:51 |
| kanzure | well, obviously we'd change the grounding to something else for asteroidal situations | 20:51 |
| fenn | do you consider openfarmtech sufficiently grounded? | 20:52 |
| fenn | assuming they actually get everything to work | 20:52 |
| kanzure | from what I have seen, not really - it looks like they're just using proprietary systems | 20:53 |
| fenn | i'm highly skeptical of "Aluminum Extraction From Clays" | 20:53 |
| kanzure | we have gone over this before | 20:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: yeah, but it would be nice | 20:53 |
| fenn | what proprietary systems? | 20:53 |
| fenn | i guess what it comes down to is r&d cost vs purchase price | 20:54 |
| fenn | we can distribute the r&d cost across everyone who uses skdb | 20:55 |
| kanzure | right | 20:55 |
| kanzure | purchase price could be used at the same time | 20:55 |
| kanzure | for example, we could buy a robotic arm to make our own diy robotic arms | 20:55 |
| kanzure | to 'bootstrap' the community | 20:55 |
| fenn | what sort of thing would you buy to start bootstrapping? (a robotic arm isnt terribly useful in reality) | 20:57 |
| kanzure | piezos, maybe - I dunno - I think it's good to have a set of projects to build up to the parts that might be used in self-replication | 20:58 |
| fenn | i mean, with much less effort you can build 20 robotic arms, than it would take to get money to buy one | 20:58 |
| kanzure | so origami is an interesting start, but not particularly useful | 20:58 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, perhaps we can get funding - but that's just a big if | 20:58 |
| fenn | actually, some origami is quite useful, for example the kane bellows | 20:59 |
| fenn | (another MIT "product") | 20:59 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:00 |
| kanzure | okay | 21:00 |
| kanzure | I just had an ... interesting chat | 21:01 |
| kanzure | lemme upload | 21:01 |
| fenn | patent is here: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat6397653.pdf | 21:01 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-05-12-yikes-%23bioinformatics.html | 21:03 |
| fenn | classic example of shock-level mismatch | 21:05 |
| kanzure | with a good ol' FUCK YOU thrown in there :) | 21:06 |
| fenn | of course, from his perspective it looks like you're belittling his grave concerns | 21:07 |
| kanzure | right, I was a bit harsh in that manner, I could have drawn it out and discussed it with him | 21:07 |
| kanzure | todo - revamp my python class to include a list of files to always fetch when installing, do a variable for uh dependency (like in debian syntax), then include the class hooks/methods that py-yaml demands in order to serialize the classes, after this I think I'm going to convert a few online examples of origami into the origami fold language, and then throw them into a git repository | 21:09 |
| Vedestin | sounds like he just wanted to quit college | 21:11 |
| Vedestin | and that was how he was rationalising it | 21:11 |
| kanzure | a good rationalization is *wanting* to quit college. | 21:11 |
| Vedestin | i guess he needed a moral objection | 21:11 |
| Vedestin | rather than a self serving one | 21:11 |
| Vedestin | at any rate, the development of new technologies or drugs in an open source environment would be hindered by lack of research facilities | 21:13 |
| kanzure | Have you ever heard of a methlab? | 21:14 |
| kanzure | or an amateur chemistry set? | 21:14 |
| Vedestin | methlabs aren't about research | 21:14 |
| kanzure | Who do you think these researchers are? Some sort of supermen? They, just like you or me, face the same exact problems. | 21:14 |
| Vedestin | they're at universities | 21:14 |
| Vedestin | or in private industry | 21:15 |
| Vedestin | their discoveries are owned by their patrons | 21:15 |
| Vedestin | even people who start up on their own get people to invest or sponsor them | 21:15 |
| Vedestin | so it would take a well funded open technology institute to support any real innovative gains in any field | 21:16 |
| kanzure | Have you heard of Gingery? | 21:16 |
| kanzure | He bootstrapped the industrial revolution in his backyard. | 21:17 |
| Vedestin | actually i haven't sorry | 21:17 |
| kanzure | Without much funding. Maybe some (which is how he had the time). | 21:17 |
| kanzure | (i.e., a wife to cook or something ?) | 21:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2007/03/bootstrapping_t.php | 21:17 |
| Vedestin | what did he make? | 21:17 |
| kanzure | metal manufacturing equipment | 21:19 |
| Vedestin | i see | 21:19 |
| Vedestin | sure, the philosophy is there | 21:21 |
| Vedestin | but it's extremely rare | 21:21 |
| Vedestin | and what gingery did wasn't research either | 21:22 |
| Vedestin | he took an already proven concept and made it work in his backyard | 21:22 |
| Vedestin | i'm sure it helped him a lot that he already knew what a lathe was | 21:22 |
| kanzure | what are you trying to argue and why | 21:23 |
| Vedestin | i'm trying to argue that ground breaking research in your garage is not as common as astounding feats of engineering in your garage | 21:25 |
| fenn | gingery wrote the first book (charcoal foundry) without any funding, but the publisher sponsored the rest of the books (not much mind you) | 21:25 |
| Vedestin | why would you need funding to write a book | 21:25 |
| Vedestin | all you need is pen and paper | 21:25 |
| kanzure | you don't have free food yet | 21:25 |
| Vedestin | homeless people do | 21:25 |
| fenn | Vedestin: you dont need funding to do anything, actually, but without it things get difficult | 21:26 |
| Vedestin | yes, and the more complex those things are, the more difficult they become without funding fenn | 21:26 |
| fenn | also there's a social factor, when people ask you 'what do you do' its hard to explain what you do unless you have a source of funding | 21:26 |
| kanzure | "Money is a sign of a lack of imagination." | 21:26 |
| Vedestin | that's not true fenn | 21:27 |
| fenn | Vedestin: it's easy to explain that you're a mad scientist bum? wtf are you talking about | 21:27 |
| Vedestin | who said that kanzure | 21:27 |
| Vedestin | sure | 21:27 |
| Vedestin | you can just say 'ohh i'm working on a great project right now about "..."' | 21:28 |
| Vedestin | and then go on to explain what your work is | 21:28 |
| fenn | well, its hard, believe me | 21:28 |
| Vedestin | if you're interested enough in what you're doing i don't see how it'd be difficult to discuss with other people | 21:28 |
| Vedestin | so what do you say when that comes up? | 21:28 |
| Vedestin | 'oh i just play with electronics and stuff....' | 21:28 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: Ian M. Banks | 21:29 |
| fenn | hah Banks stole 90% of his ideas from other SF authors | 21:29 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:29 |
| kanzure | I was questioning the source of the quote earlier today | 21:29 |
| kanzure | because Banks is too late in the game to have come up with such an obvious quote | 21:29 |
| kanzure | I am reluctant to add it to my quotes.html file - it's not expressive enough, methinks | 21:30 |
| kanzure | although I'm not saying everything else in there is :) | 21:30 |
| Vedestin | it's a strange concept | 21:30 |
| fenn | i'm kinda annoyed at this cultural obsession with imagination, like "imagination is more important than knowledge" -einstein <- wtf is this supposed to mean? | 21:30 |
| Vedestin | i've met some poor people who are extremely unimaginative | 21:30 |
| kanzure | "Everything is destined to experience the terror of absolutism of money." - Edis, Slashdot age prophet | 21:30 |
| Vedestin | all of einsteins experiments were thought experiments fenn | 21:30 |
| fenn | and you must tack the name 'einstein' on the end | 21:30 |
| Vedestin | so that was true for him | 21:30 |
| fenn | Vedestin: no, it's not true | 21:31 |
| kanzure | fenn: cultural diffusion + dillution :( | 21:31 |
| Vedestin | for him it was | 21:31 |
| fenn | he did a lot of experiments on the photoelectric effect | 21:31 |
| kanzure | `Economists are trained to believe that "money" is to the economy what "energy" is to the physical world. This leads them to believe that whatever is "economically" possible is "physically" possible too. What economists fail to realize is that the economy is a subsystem of the physical system, and thus constrained [and empowered] by universal physical laws that they have not studied.` | 21:31 |
| fenn | then he couldnt face up to how weird reality was and retreated into fantasy land | 21:31 |
| Vedestin | where would einstein be if he couldn't imagine what happened to the speed of light as you approached the speed of light? | 21:31 |
| Vedestin | i like that one kanzure | 21:32 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: Einstein's work was not a castle in the sky. He was a very intense person. He rewrote proofs from other researchers, philosophers, scientists, many many times over. | 21:33 |
| kanzure | He wasn't just "imagining" - he was synthesizing massive amounts of information [or he stole it, either way - haha]. | 21:34 |
| kanzure | what was his quote? something about knowing how to hide sources, methinks. | 21:34 |
| fenn | <troll> and he was wrong </troll> | 21:34 |
| kanzure | sure | 21:34 |
| fenn | all the great 'geniuses' managed to do that; tesla, fuller (um, any others?) | 21:35 |
| kanzure | If I had to choose ultimately, I think I'd be much more interested in experimental physics rather than merely theoretical physics. | 21:35 |
| kanzure | fenn: Feynman | 21:35 |
| Vedestin | edison | 21:35 |
| kanzure | although he said what his sources were -- the encyclopedia ;) | 21:35 |
| Vedestin | not that he was a great genius | 21:35 |
| fenn | i woudlnt call edison a genius | 21:35 |
| kanzure | Edison was a workaholic. Permutation and combination. | 21:35 |
| Vedestin | he was a business man really | 21:35 |
| Vedestin | a suit | 21:35 |
| Vedestin | edison is richard branson | 21:35 |
| fenn | heh | 21:36 |
| fenn | branson is much more idealistic | 21:36 |
| fenn | but branson inherited his wealth so its no surprise | 21:36 |
| Vedestin | you wait till his tesla comes along | 21:36 |
| Vedestin | then he'll quickly become pragmatic | 21:36 |
| fenn | hm.. re: kevin kelly i always have that daydream, where you're walking along and suddenly fall through a time portal to ancient rome or something | 21:37 |
| kanzure | that's interesting | 21:37 |
| Vedestin | that doesnt happen to me | 21:37 |
| kanzure | how is that re: kevin kelly | 21:38 |
| fenn | http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2007/03/bootstrapping_t.php\ | 21:38 |
| Vedestin | with the whole reinventing technology kanzure | 21:38 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:38 |
| Vedestin | have you seen back to the future fenn? | 21:38 |
| fenn | then the daydream becomes 'how would i actually do it' | 21:39 |
| fenn | Vedestin: yes a long time ago | 21:39 |
| Vedestin | the third one, in the old west | 21:39 |
| kanzure | sure | 21:39 |
| fenn | all i really remember is some fancy train and chinese guys getting scammed | 21:39 |
| Vedestin | doc brown the nuclear physicist running a blacksmithing shop in 1884 | 21:39 |
| Vedestin | chinese guys getting scammed? | 21:40 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: you don't read much, do you | 21:40 |
| fenn | yeah, slave ships, 'go to america the land of golden opportunity' | 21:40 |
| Vedestin | no i don't kanzure | 21:40 |
| kanzure | I don't mean to be insulting, but there are tons of other examples than Doc Brown and his blacksmithing shop :( | 21:40 |
| kanzure | although that's a good, entertaining one I must admit | 21:40 |
| Vedestin | there probably are | 21:41 |
| kanzure | I am now a fan of Tony Stark in a cave | 21:41 |
| Vedestin | iron man? | 21:41 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:41 |
| Vedestin | i havent seen that | 21:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's your exoskeleton story, basically | 21:41 |
| fenn | "you’d have to start with finding your own ore, mining and refining it with primitive tools, firing up bricks, rolling out sheet metal, developing screws and bolts by hand" | 21:42 |
| Vedestin | cutting screws and bolts by hand | 21:42 |
| kanzure | heh | 21:42 |
| kanzure | fists of steel | 21:42 |
| Vedestin | i have no idea where to start with that | 21:42 |
| fenn | i dont think he's really thought this through | 21:42 |
| kanzure | haha | 21:42 |
| fenn | you can make so many things out of ceramic it's not even funny | 21:42 |
| Vedestin | so you'd cast a die tap? | 21:42 |
| ybit | kanzure, i think earlier today i finally read through most of your stuff :) | 21:42 |
| kanzure | right, burning and firing clay | 21:42 |
| fenn | especially if you can grind them precisely after firing | 21:42 |
| kanzure | ybit: That's impressive. :) | 21:43 |
| ybit | I'll be keeping an eye on things, I really dig the roadmap | 21:43 |
| kanzure | ybit: Anything in particular jump out at you? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | ah | 21:43 |
| ybit | and getting up to speed is good | 21:44 |
| fenn | kanzure: ever read starship troopers? | 21:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, and I have also seen the movie | 21:45 |
| ybit | some clarity is lacking though on the wiki, a brief paragraph at the top describing exactly what the wiki is for would be helpful | 21:45 |
| kanzure | ybit: I agree. From what you have seen, what is the wiki for? This way, I can go in and add some text to correct anything that *you* might be getting wrong [because I already *know* what it's about]. | 21:46 |
| kanzure | hrm, emphasis on I not know. | 21:46 |
| fenn | kanzure: uh, 'also seen the movie' lol | 21:46 |
| kanzure | yeah, big differences between the two | 21:47 |
| fenn | kanzure: they made a japanese animation 'uchuu no senshi' which actually has something to do with the book | 21:47 |
| kanzure | although in the movie I think the teacher coming back was a nice touch | 21:47 |
| ybit | or perhaps i should read the first page of the wiki better :P | 21:47 |
| kanzure | ybit: the first page might not help much, but go see | 21:47 |
| fenn | kanzure: also check out "maschinen krieger" http://www.roboterkampf.com/roboterhtml/htmlmakvis/camel.htm | 21:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: I'm not a big fan of Heinlein's emphasis on citizenship, governments, etc. | 21:49 |
| fenn | this reminds me of starship troopers: http://www.roboterkampf.com/roboterhtml/htmlmakvis/bananaboat.htm | 21:50 |
| kanzure | cool | 21:50 |
| fenn | i never really understood what people see in marvel comics | 21:53 |
| kanzure | it's probably just a "whatever is on top of the stacks" thing - that's what people see, so that's what they talk about | 21:53 |
| ybit | without having read the introduction, i thought the wiki was a large collection of helpful materials for the transhumanists roadmap.. the 'getting up to speed' page.. might be clarify what you are getting up to speed on | 21:54 |
| ybit | there needs to be a site name that you can click on and get more info on what the site's goals are | 21:54 |
| ybit | be/could* | 21:55 |
| ybit | similar to what wikipedia has on their welcome page: en.wikipedia.org | 21:56 |
| Vedestin | some sort of mission statement? | 21:57 |
| ybit | not necessarily, perhaps just an entire wiki page dedicated to clarifying what the site is | 21:58 |
| kanzure | besides my own personal braindump | 21:58 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:58 |
| kanzure | that's a tough one :) | 21:59 |
| ybit | and an easily seen "Welcome to ___" similar to wikipedia would be helpful | 21:59 |
| ybit | are there other contributors to the wiki? | 21:59 |
| fenn | i wrote a page :P | 21:59 |
| kanzure | yes, there are | 21:59 |
| fenn | its hard to get people to contribute to a wiki | 21:59 |
| kanzure | esp. ones with ridiculously long URLs | 22:00 |
| ybit | i know there was a page mentioning people who are considered to be contributors | 22:00 |
| kanzure | yep | 22:00 |
| fenn | kanzure: why dont you mod_rewrite it? | 22:00 |
| fenn | or does mediawiki not do that? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | well, I tried it a few times | 22:00 |
| kanzure | some crappy config problems that I've been having | 22:00 |
| kanzure | I guess I'll give it another shot soon | 22:00 |
| fenn | mediawiki sux | 22:01 |
| kanzure | ybit: technically the contributor list is wrong, | 22:01 |
| kanzure | superkuh doesn't show up around these parts even though I steal lots of content from him | 22:01 |
| kanzure | Enki-2 has dropped out of here too, never updated a page either | 22:01 |
| kanzure | epitron left in a huff and a puff | 22:01 |
| fenn | eh something like that | 22:02 |
| * fenn hums innocently | 22:02 | |
| ybit | i think that maybe the appropriate title is 'hplusroadmap wiki' | 22:02 |
| fenn | hey bryan you need a road map | 22:02 |
| ybit | :P | 22:02 |
| fenn | like grister.org | 22:02 |
| kanzure | my roadmap isn't good enough? | 22:02 |
| fenn | but maybe a little more .. directed | 22:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you seen http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap | 22:03 |
| ybit | lol | 22:03 |
| kanzure | ybit: hplusroadmap wiki would be a good title, yes | 22:03 |
| ybit | " h+ roadmap " for the graphic would be nice too :D | 22:03 |
| kanzure | the reason it's 'biohack' is because it's really a db copy from the biohack.sf.net db when it was getting killed by lag due to the extreme load on their sql servers | 22:03 |
| fenn | i can critique the roadmap page if you like? | 22:04 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, but also realize that it was written 7 mo again | 22:05 |
| kanzure | *ago | 22:05 |
| kanzure | I wasn't exactly organized at that time | 22:05 |
| fenn | mainly it's just more of a set of possibilities, rather than 'this is what we need to work on' | 22:06 |
| fenn | for example, why do we need a solar power satellite | 22:06 |
| fenn | or space* anything | 22:06 |
| Vedestin | arent there already solar powered satellites? | 22:07 |
| fenn | yes thousands | 22:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: hm? | 22:07 |
| Vedestin | all of them are, aren't they? | 22:07 |
| fenn | a "solar power satellite" however is solely for the purpose of beaming electricity back to earth | 22:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: "mainly it's" is what I was hmming | 22:07 |
| fenn | Vedestin: no, not all of them | 22:07 |
| Vedestin | beaming electricity | 22:08 |
| Vedestin | sim city much? | 22:08 |
| fenn | i suppose you also believe atomic testing causes fish to mutate into giant fire-breathing lizards that will stomp on your cities | 22:08 |
| Vedestin | dude, i've met godzilla | 22:08 |
| Vedestin | and he's not a fish he's a sea iguana | 22:08 |
| fenn | ah, that makes more sense then | 22:08 |
| Vedestin | it really does | 22:09 |
| Vedestin | but yeah, how does that work? some sort of focused ion stream? | 22:09 |
| fenn | microwave | 22:09 |
| fenn | do you know what a phased array antenna is? | 22:09 |
| Vedestin | nup | 22:09 |
| kanzure | fenn: but really, what do you mean "a set of possibilities" - did you mean that it should be a set of possibilities, or that it *is* a set of possibilities and needs to be more practically oriented ? | 22:09 |
| Vedestin | i don't know physics | 22:09 |
| Vedestin | yet... | 22:10 |
| fenn | kanzure: the webpage is simply a list of possibilities for interesting technologies/projects, whereas it *should* be a well defined set of steps that we as a community should take in order to reach some destination | 22:10 |
| fenn | you could have multiple paths, sure | 22:11 |
| kanzure | okay | 22:11 |
| fenn | but you dont really explain the inter-relatedness of any technologies | 22:11 |
| kanzure | yep, I agree | 22:11 |
| Vedestin | that totally sounded like communism for no reason at all | 22:12 |
| Vedestin | i think it's because you said community | 22:12 |
| fenn | i wonder if anyone's ever prank-called lifeboat.org | 22:12 |
| fenn | they'd probably shit their pants | 22:12 |
| ybit | simple logo with transparent background: http://bayimg.com/HAjCgaAbK simple logo with white background: http://bayimg.com/HAjChaaBK | 22:12 |
| ybit | i would send the svg through bayimg.. but it seems it won't support it | 22:12 |
| ybit | if you wanted to make it even more flashy, not a problem | 22:13 |
| ybit | woops | 22:14 |
| fenn | Vedestin: i don't trust a market to develop technologies in the globally optimal order | 22:14 |
| ybit | http://bayimg.com/HaJcKaabk - there you go | 22:14 |
| ybit | the one with background wasn't centered properly | 22:14 |
| fenn | Vedestin: we still dont have a production-level electric car | 22:16 |
| ybit | can visitors create an account and start editing the main page? | 22:16 |
| ybit | i can get on it | 22:16 |
| Vedestin | we already had production level electric cars | 22:16 |
| kanzure | ybit: yes | 22:16 |
| ybit | well.. i can do a few simple things | 22:16 |
| Vedestin | they just fell out of favour | 22:16 |
| kanzure | ybit: go ahead | 22:16 |
| Vedestin | and development stopped | 22:16 |
| ybit | i don't need to tie myself up just yet, but alright, i'll make a few simple changes | 22:17 |
| fenn | Vedestin: not really, the model-t was the first production car, were there any electric cars being made after that? | 22:17 |
| Vedestin | oh, no i guess not | 22:18 |
| Vedestin | you meant mass production | 22:18 |
| Vedestin | i thought you meant production as opposed to prototype | 22:18 |
| fenn | sure, any joe can slap a motor in a car in his garage | 22:18 |
| fenn | or cobble together some old lab equipment | 22:19 |
| fenn | it just takes a lot of work | 22:19 |
| fenn | pointless reinventing the wheel | 22:20 |
| Vedestin | hmm yeah | 22:20 |
| kanzure | bootstrapping a lab sucks | 22:21 |
| kanzure | I only want to do it once | 22:21 |
| fenn | heh it's easier the second time | 22:21 |
| Vedestin | what sort of lab | 22:21 |
| fenn | any sort | 22:21 |
| fenn | kanzure wants to do gen-engineering and tissue culture | 22:22 |
| Vedestin | oh ok | 22:22 |
| kanzure | and other stuff | 22:22 |
| Vedestin | gen engineering in what? | 22:22 |
| kanzure | brains | 22:22 |
| fenn | mices? | 22:22 |
| Vedestin | yeah, what species i meant | 22:22 |
| kanzure | human, mouse, whatever I can get my hands on | 22:22 |
| kanzure | also some other projects of course | 22:22 |
| fenn | hah i'm sure you'll have no shortage of human subjects | 22:22 |
| Vedestin | humans are plentiful | 22:23 |
| Vedestin | but there are often legal implications | 22:23 |
| kanzure | the simulation of brains, large-scale pharmaceutical searches (i.e., a million tissue samples to test a single drug on) | 22:23 |
| Vedestin | they don't do that do they | 22:23 |
| kanzure | no :( | 22:23 |
| Vedestin | they just give it to a few dozen people and see what they say | 22:23 |
| kanzure | which worries me sometimes. | 22:23 |
| fenn | i'd like to see more research on nootropics | 22:23 |
| kanzure | sure | 22:23 |
| Vedestin | yeah, nootropics would be interesting | 22:23 |
| fenn | just characterization of what's already out there | 22:24 |
| fenn | 'it makes you smarter' doesnt mean a damn thing | 22:24 |
| kanzure | ybit: did you see http://heybryan.org/recursion.html ? :) | 22:24 |
| kanzure | ybit: that's the page I wrote before I wrote exp.html | 22:24 |
| Vedestin | some of them are nothing more than targetting vitamins | 22:24 |
| Vedestin | which may or may not improve brain activity but it probably doesnt hurt | 22:25 |
| fenn | the supplement industry is full of bullshit | 22:25 |
| fenn | i'm sure there's a lot of good stuff there, but it's hard to even do subjective trials when you aren't guaranteed the pill you are taking actually contains what you think it does | 22:25 |
| Vedestin | i pop ginseng and guarana | 22:25 |
| fenn | so, one person's ginseng may not be the same as another's | 22:26 |
| Vedestin | one persons reaction to ginseng you mean | 22:26 |
| kanzure | you need to create your own drugs | 22:26 |
| fenn | no, i mean the pills are not necessarily the same | 22:26 |
| kanzure | or at least know what your brain is before popping pills | 22:26 |
| Vedestin | yeah i don't know how to do that yet | 22:26 |
| kanzure | fenn: ah, that too | 22:27 |
| kanzure | but quantitative chemical analysis equipment can solve that | 22:27 |
| Vedestin | oh, i guess there's that fenn | 22:27 |
| Vedestin | hmm, i might talk to the lab guys and see if we can work it out | 22:27 |
| kanzure | work what out? | 22:28 |
| Vedestin | if the pills are what they say they are | 22:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/amorphous/Progmat/thesis/origami-global.html apparently they have a compiler but no nesting. Would it be practical for me to go write my own BNF, or what? | 22:29 |
| fenn | Vedestin: often they dont even say what's in the pills, is one problem | 22:29 |
| Vedestin | they're not pharmaceuticals | 22:30 |
| Vedestin | they're herbal supplements | 22:30 |
| fenn | that's not any excuse for poor labeling | 22:30 |
| fenn | kanzure: i dont understand, no nesting? isnt it just some lisp functions? | 22:30 |
| fenn | (define tmp-line (fold-onto e12 e34)) <- nesting | 22:31 |
| fenn | there isnt much on that page really | 22:32 |
| fenn | ah here we go (love the graphics :) http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/amorphous/Progmat/thesis/simexamples.html | 22:33 |
| kanzure | hah, that's hardcore | 22:35 |
| kanzure | so please explain | 22:36 |
| kanzure | is it just lisp? | 22:36 |
| kanzure | from the index - "or a manufacturing line that replaces precise mechanical engineering with programming. " huh. | 22:37 |
| fenn | well, it looks like lisp but i dont see where to download the source/software | 22:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/amorphous/Progmat/ | 22:40 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:40 |
| kanzure | heh, her committee | 22:40 |
| kanzure | Tom Knight. | 22:40 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Knight | 22:40 |
| kanzure | I've talked with Tom. :-) | 22:40 |
| kanzure | and Sussman is another interesting character. | 22:40 |
| Vedestin | haha, sussman | 22:40 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/quotes.html | 22:40 |
| kanzure | In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied. "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said. Minsky then shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So that the | 22:41 |
| kanzure | of how to play", Sussman said. Minsky then shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So that the room will be empty." At that moment, Sussman was enlightened. | 22:41 |
| fenn | i never understood that quote | 22:41 |
| kanzure | neurons for modeling/rules/programs/processes, not for sending it in blind to any possible problem | 22:42 |
| fenn | but tic-tac-toe has a 'good move' for every possible state | 22:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.origami.as/Info/Oil/oil.php another language - eh | 22:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, so why would he wire it randomly | 22:44 |
| fenn | to see if it can figure out what the good moves are | 22:44 |
| fenn | because you want to send it in blind to figure out any possible problem, eventually | 22:45 |
| fenn | otherwise just write a program | 22:46 |
| kanzure | http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:n1q4pojyo6QJ:www.ganymeta.org/~darren/origami2.php+origami+language&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=opera another language worth using - but I don't see a download clicky | 22:46 |
| Vedestin | sorry, what's the relevance with origami? | 22:46 |
| Vedestin | you want to use the same language to...what? | 22:46 |
| Vedestin | fold graphene? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | That'd be cool, but no. It's a demonstration of SKDB. | 22:46 |
| Vedestin | what's that | 22:47 |
| fenn | Vedestin: a program that takes some arbitrary engineering design and turns it into reality (if possible) | 22:48 |
| Vedestin | i see | 22:48 |
| Vedestin | ahh, wiki | 22:48 |
| fenn | you have to specify the design in such a way that the program can understand it of course | 22:48 |
| fenn | so we're trying to find a 'module' for specifying origami | 22:48 |
| kanzure | and so far this sucks | 22:49 |
| kanzure | not a lot of research out there | 22:49 |
| kanzure | no compilers, we'd have to write our own | 22:49 |
| kanzure | unless we email Radhika, I guess | 22:50 |
| fenn | well, a robot that can fold origami is a thesis project in its own right | 22:50 |
| kanzure | this is just for human folding at the moment | 22:50 |
| kanzure | you just blackbox the human away from the problem space | 22:50 |
| kanzure | and then slowly work on it or something | 22:51 |
| fenn | oh, um.. can't we just show a series of pictures? | 22:51 |
| kanzure | yeah | 22:51 |
| kanzure | ok, I guess I'll email her | 22:51 |
| kanzure | but in the mean time, we need a backup plan | 22:51 |
| Vedestin | a robot that can fold origami is a thesis project? | 22:52 |
| kanzure | ironically OpenCores.org might be an interesting plan, but it has no physical, hands-on demonstration :( | 22:52 |
| fenn | Vedestin: yep | 22:52 |
| Vedestin | i would not feed the kid who came to me with that for a thesis idea | 22:52 |
| fenn | Vedestin: if you dont think it's hard, please demonstrate a robot that can fold origami | 22:52 |
| Vedestin | hmm | 22:52 |
| Vedestin | ok yeah, little quick to judge | 22:53 |
| kanzure | eh, for a backup plan we could just do arts and craft - one of those "fold a piece of paper, cut here and here" and you get a foldout thing | 22:53 |
| kanzure | sucks in comparison to an origami machine :( | 22:54 |
| fenn | pepakura | 22:54 |
| kanzure | http://www.tamasoft.co.jp/pepakura-en/ | 22:54 |
| fenn | i'd love to have a robot that could make those | 22:54 |
| kanzure | trying to find some related F/OSS projects for pepakura | 22:55 |
| kanzure | http://hexaflexagon.sourceforge.net/ | 22:56 |
| kanzure | there we go? | 22:56 |
| fenn | http://www.blendernation.com/2007/07/22/creating-paper-models/ | 22:56 |
| kanzure | "A hexaflexagon is a toy that anyone can make using six pictures, a printer and this software! In fact there's some pictures bundled with the app, so you don't even need the pictures! | 22:56 |
| kanzure | After cutting out a shape and following instructions you'll produce a folding puzzle/toy. | 22:56 |
| kanzure | It's got some odd mathematical properties, and can be a dangerously involving distraction. See the bottom of this page for links to more information." | 22:56 |
| fenn | no, hexaflexagon is only one particular shape | 22:57 |
| fenn | its like, a torus | 22:57 |
| kanzure | hrm | 22:57 |
| kanzure | holy shit, I just realized something | 22:57 |
| * kanzure goes to check archives | 22:57 | |
| kanzure | http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&id=SL5tAAAAEBAJ&dq=%22Charles+Belsky%22+puzzle&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=FLHBmgPEhS&sig=QOvWKAOahpAsBrjwsms6dFwFcKQ | 22:57 |
| kanzure | the Belsky Puzzle | 22:58 |
| kanzure | that's my great grandfather :) | 22:58 |
| fenn | ahhh i hate google's interfaces | 22:59 |
| fenn | just show me the damn picture | 22:59 |
| kanzure | http://www.google.com/patents?printsec=drawing&zoom=4&dq=%22Charles+Belsky%22+puzzle&id=SL5tAAAAEBAJ&output=html HTML mode | 23:00 |
| kanzure | doesn't make sense to me, but apparently he did foldable puzzles | 23:00 |
| kanzure | oh, how about just a puzzle generator | 23:00 |
| kanzure | 3D shape-making would be preferable | 23:00 |
| kanzure | is the blender option suitable? | 23:00 |
| fenn | its only half of the tool | 23:03 |
| fenn | you'd have to move the faces around manually and add tabs and cut it out | 23:03 |
| fenn | and fold and glue etc :) | 23:03 |
| fenn | but sure, as a generic process i think it's worth using | 23:03 |
| fenn | easier to understand than origami modeling language at least | 23:03 |
| fenn | i dont think i'll ever understand patents | 23:04 |
| ybit | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page | 23:06 |
| * ybit was having a tough time with a subtitle :) | 23:07 | |
| ybit | i figured someone could modify as needed, but that seems to be more helpful to those new to the wiki | 23:10 |
| ybit | okay, edited twice since posting the link | 23:12 |
| ybit | did one more edit to change spacing | 23:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: Hm. Macross Plus is on tv. Hurray. :) | 23:13 |
| ybit | and i'm through for tonight | 23:13 |
| kanzure | Good anime, IMHO. | 23:13 |
| kanzure | ybit: ok, cya :) | 23:13 |
| kanzure | let me see the edits | 23:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: you have to manually move around the faces? wtf? | 23:14 |
| * ybit isn't leaving, just through editing the wiki :) | 23:14 | |
| kanzure | ybit: yes, I like the edits | 23:14 |
| fenn | kanzure: dunno actually, never tried it, but i dont imagine 'unfold' can handle highly complex shapes | 23:15 |
| kanzure | why not? it's all surfaces, right? | 23:15 |
| kanzure | hm | 23:15 |
| kanzure | I don't know how it would explain how to put it together | 23:15 |
| fenn | the faces might overlap, and then which faces do you move? there has to be some algorithm for determining which 'branch' to move | 23:15 |
| fenn | its easy enough to explain how to put it back together, just label the edges with a number | 23:16 |
| fenn | a human could figure out the rest of the folding | 23:16 |
| kanzure | ah | 23:16 |
| fenn | otherwise you get into origamiland again | 23:16 |
| kanzure | I think it's worth investigating | 23:17 |
| kanzure | heh, Fernhout wants to acquire http://www.lindsaybks.com/ because of their ownership of the Gingery books | 23:19 |
| fenn | wow http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/entertainment/papercraft/index.html | 23:19 |
| fenn | want to 'acquire' them? | 23:19 |
| kanzure | it's a company | 23:20 |
| fenn | i know | 23:20 |
| fenn | um.. usually you cant just buy a company | 23:20 |
| fenn | for one thing, its expensive | 23:20 |
| fenn | and the owner probably wouldnt go for it | 23:20 |
| kanzure | then we'll just have to torrent the Gingery books | 23:20 |
| kanzure | seed them, I mean | 23:20 |
| fenn | anyway, the gingery books seriously need to be updated: http://fennetic.net/machines/21st_century | 23:21 |
| fenn | damn i thought that page had more on it | 23:21 |
| ybit | kanzure: do you need help with the logo? | 23:22 |
| kanzure | ybit: I dunno. I'll look into it soon. I remember there being a variable in LocalSettings.php or something about that. | 23:23 |
| fenn | kanzure: you might be interested in this page http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?Foo | 23:23 |
| fenn | its some of the thinking that led me to skdb* | 23:24 |
| kanzure | "gawd I'm starting to sound like a republican" :( | 23:24 |
| kanzure | yes, I can tell | 23:24 |
| fenn | "you can make it much better from scratch than what you could afford to buy in the first place" is no longer true | 23:25 |
| fenn | but if china trade disparity comes back to normal then it might become true again | 23:26 |
| fenn | still true for the other 95% of the world | 23:27 |
| Vedestin | well, i'd better go to university | 23:27 |
| Vedestin | assessments to do etc | 23:27 |
| kanzure | eh? | 23:28 |
| Vedestin | im going now, goodbye? | 23:29 |
| fenn | seeya | 23:29 |
| Vedestin | ohh, it seems i havent talked for quite a while anyway | 23:29 |
| Vedestin | nvm | 23:29 |
| kanzure | http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101194 | 23:29 |
| fenn | Vedestin: "i'd better go to university" means something entirely different in american english | 23:29 |
| kanzure | ' | 23:30 |
| kanzure | You can choose any, but it's obvious that paper model has some limitations. It is hard to make thin pieces, but it is possible (spillikins or spaghetti can help). You shouldn't choose too complex model (but we are going to simplify it nevertheless). And mechanical, sharp models will (of course) look more natural than the organic.' | 23:30 |
| kanzure | hm | 23:33 |
| kanzure | what type of glue would work | 23:33 |
| kanzure | I guess if you have tab flaps it'd be easier with a glue stick | 23:33 |
| fenn | rubber cement | 23:33 |
| kanzure | I haven't used that in years, it's a liquid right? | 23:33 |
| fenn | yes, with a brush to apply it, dries quickly and bonds instantly | 23:35 |
| fenn | also, it doesnt warp paper the way water-based glue will | 23:35 |
| kanzure | I have to admit, the images from the blog are pretty awesome | 23:35 |
| kanzure | http://www.blendernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/tank.jpg | 23:35 |
| fenn | "It contains a simple unfolder and an SVG exporter.": http://www.czestmyr.wz.cz/progs/B-Paperizer_04.py | 23:36 |
| fenn | the tank is ok, i'm lusting after the yamaha motorcycles | 23:36 |
| kanzure | hehe | 23:36 |
| kanzure | hey, uhh, from another POV, people might get the wrong idea if we show this as a demo | 23:37 |
| kanzure | blender isn't true CAD. | 23:37 |
| fenn | yeah, that sucks | 23:37 |
| kanzure | this is ridiculously easy to get the wrong idea off of | 23:37 |
| kanzure | so we'll just have to be careful. | 23:37 |
| fenn | it's really strange that there is no cad for linux | 23:37 |
| fenn | gosh reading over old essays is re-enlightening | 23:39 |
| kanzure | how so - reloading old ideas, or just going back over crappy stuff? | 23:41 |
| fenn | just rediscovering the basis for my current motivations, ideas i have now that i had before and forgot | 23:42 |
| kanzure | http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/search?q=star+wars | 23:46 |
| kanzure | hehe | 23:46 |
| kanzure | it's funny, it's mostly kid's stuff | 23:47 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/3D_models | 23:50 |
| fenn | well, this part looks automatizable at least: http://www.bertsimons.nl/zenphoto/paperworks/rozemarijn/ | 23:51 |
| fenn | if we dont show 'cad-ish' models then people might not get the wrong idea | 23:54 |
| fenn | obviously some dude's head isnt a cad model | 23:55 |
| kanzure | ah | 23:56 |
| kanzure | makes them think :) | 23:56 |
| kanzure | what software is that ? | 23:57 |
| kanzure | probably a plugin | 23:57 |
| fenn | apparently he wrote tabs/assembly instruction software: http://www.bertsimons.nl/files/bouwplaat.pdf | 23:58 |
| fenn | i see blender.. probably explained somewhere on the site | 23:58 |
| kanzure | impressive | 23:59 |
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