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| fenn | the reason biotech is expensive is that every last thing is patented multiple times | 00:40 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | the only reason it hasn't ground to a halt is that nobody can possibly look at all the patents and figure out who is in violation | 00:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: I just got done reading some of Eli's writings on yudkowsky.net ... why does he get funding? | 00:41 |
| fenn | because nobody else writes seriously about AI ethics | 00:42 |
| kanzure | but it's not a matter of ai | 00:43 |
| kanzure | look, even if you get ai on a box | 00:43 |
| kanzure | it's going to come across the same problems we're fighting with skdb | 00:43 |
| fenn | hmm? | 00:43 |
| kanzure | frankly *we're* ai, just not able to modify our software as quickly of course | 00:43 |
| kanzure | so think about it | 00:43 |
| fenn | no, because we arent able to re-engineer our cognitive architecture | 00:43 |
| kanzure | if you have ai running on a computer, it designs its next generation hardware | 00:43 |
| kanzure | assume it's reached upper limits on software | 00:43 |
| kanzure | so it needs a new ISA | 00:43 |
| kanzure | so it goes to make it, great, then it needs a physical implementation | 00:44 |
| kanzure | how is it going to figure that out ? the same way we would | 00:44 |
| fenn | yes | 00:44 |
| fenn | so? that's just the first generation | 00:44 |
| kanzure | ? | 00:44 |
| kanzure | I'm not saying ai is a bad idea | 00:44 |
| fenn | it's hard to say much of anything.. one ai may be wet and mushy, whereas another might be formalized and brittle | 00:45 |
| kanzure | just that it's going to run into the exact same problems | 00:45 |
| kanzure | it'll need new ways of interfacing with physical reality, just like skdb | 00:45 |
| fenn | but they both run on the same silicon | 00:45 |
| fenn | no, it wont run into the exact same problems, that's stupid | 00:45 |
| kanzure | it'll need arms and manipulators and manufacturing equipment, or at least a text display so that it can tell a human what to do | 00:45 |
| kanzure | okay, so then what is it going to do | 00:45 |
| kanzure | just sit there, compute, | 00:45 |
| kanzure | and suddenly intuit a new architecture out of the divine void | 00:46 |
| kanzure | and suddenly it's magically implemented? | 00:46 |
| fenn | maybe | 00:46 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 00:46 |
| fenn | well, say it reads a few papers and does this DNA FPGA thingie i'm rambling about, and sends them off to get sequenced | 00:46 |
| kanzure | wait, sequenced? | 00:46 |
| fenn | total human interaction: zero so far | 00:46 |
| fenn | un-sequenced | 00:47 |
| kanzure | right, okay | 00:47 |
| kanzure | okay, so you're thinking more about a DNA-FPGA ai there | 00:47 |
| kanzure | and that's implemented on bio | 00:47 |
| kanzure | which is already an exponential process | 00:47 |
| fenn | so then it just has to convince some human to shake up a couple test tubes of stuff and pour it into a beaker with wires dangling in | 00:47 |
| kanzure | so that's the exponential growth hijack scenario | 00:47 |
| fenn | that's just cognitive architecture number 2 | 00:48 |
| fenn | well, computational architecture really | 00:48 |
| kanzure | yeah, but that's the hijacking scenario, what about the bootstrap scenario | 00:48 |
| fenn | but i assume the AI is smart enough to take full advantage of FPGA's (whereas humans suck at this) | 00:48 |
| kanzure | the hijack scenario is iffy, it's like GNU Hurd except on steroids - CSAIL has been beating their head against the amorphous computation problem for decades | 00:48 |
| fenn | why do you call it a hijack scenario? | 00:49 |
| kanzure | well, mostly because you used that terminology before | 00:49 |
| kanzure | you were asking about what possible exponential processes there are that we could hijack | 00:49 |
| kanzure | but I think I've probably used it before too | 00:50 |
| fenn | er.. i dont remember using that word | 00:50 |
| fenn | anyway it's clear now what you mean | 00:50 |
| kanzure | anyway, it should be obvious | 00:50 |
| kanzure | yeah | 00:50 |
| fenn | i thought you meant the ai was hijacking a human's actuators to do its bidding | 00:51 |
| kanzure | fun stuff | 00:51 |
| fenn | all ur actuator r belong to us | 00:51 |
| kanzure | on this subject | 00:55 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/pipermail/hplusroadmap/2008-May/000493.html | 00:55 |
| kanzure | that's the Anissimov email, or at least my response to it | 00:55 |
| kanzure | beep | 01:00 |
| kanzure | you stopped. | 01:00 |
| fenn | good exponential intelligence, bad exponential intelligence | 01:02 |
| fenn | if you outlaw microrobots, only criminals will have microrobots | 01:03 |
| kanzure | eh? | 01:03 |
| fenn | > Society goes to hell when I give myself a technology that lets me | 01:03 |
| fenn | > kill hundreds of people undetected (microrobotics, for instance), | 01:03 |
| fenn | > then millions of other people get it, then they all use it. All it | 01:03 |
| fenn | > takes is 1/1000 people to be murderous for this to be a problem. | 01:03 |
| fenn | the proactionary principle turned out to be not what i expected | 01:03 |
| kanzure | what did you think it was? | 01:03 |
| fenn | i was expecting, "instead of worrying about bad possibilities, lets implement safety nets now, before anything happens" | 01:04 |
| kanzure | it's sort of like that - but if anything, the safety nets you do implement, it's more about *your* safety nets, not Societal Blankets | 01:04 |
| fenn | the engineering approach to disaster prevention | 01:04 |
| fenn | i'd feel much more secure having an anti-microbot shield than some wimpy legislation banning microbots | 01:05 |
| kanzure | "The Proactionary Principle recognizes that nature is not always kind, that improving our world is both natural and essential for humanity, and that stagnation is not a realistic or worthy option." | 01:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: re: shield, http://lifeboat.com/ but they need to get their act together | 01:06 |
| kanzure | or we could just fork a spacepod-colony-thing | 01:06 |
| fenn | lifeboat suffers from internet-itis | 01:06 |
| kanzure | hehe | 01:06 |
| fenn | same reason luf failed | 01:06 |
| fenn | the millenial project | 01:06 |
| kanzure | I dunno, I have to wonder how the hell Eric Hunting could fail | 01:06 |
| kanzure | I mean, he seems kind of like me, especially in his lengthy emails | 01:06 |
| fenn | he writes much more coherently | 01:07 |
| kanzure | yes | 01:07 |
| kanzure | maybe he's been over the arguments often? | 01:07 |
| fenn | i dont think so | 01:07 |
| fenn | i've google-stalked him and he mostly writes to the luf-team list | 01:07 |
| kanzure | the proactionary principle - "Let a thousand flowers bloom! By all means, inspect the flowers for signs of infestation and weed as necessary. But don’t cut off the hands of those who spread the seeds of the future. | 01:07 |
| fenn | and his old shelter webpage which is now stagnant | 01:08 |
| kanzure | aka. don't shoot yourself in the foot, you retards | 01:08 |
| kanzure | or more likely - in the head - that's a better modern interpretation | 01:09 |
| kanzure | but really, I don't know if you're following my "ai will not bring about the singularity" line of reasoning or not | 01:10 |
| fenn | heh, you get around http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.apt.devel/14488 | 01:10 |
| kanzure | do you know how much of a pain in the ass it is to googlestalk myself? | 01:10 |
| kanzure | :( | 01:10 |
| fenn | that was from googling for "eric hunting" | 01:11 |
| kanzure | haha | 01:12 |
| fenn | "People will do the research anyway, just like they code software anyway." unfortunately its much more likely that people get paid to engineer super-viruses rather than doing it for fun | 01:16 |
| fenn | but it will go in some military black budget account vs being out in the open where we can see it (if you cut research spending) | 01:17 |
| kanzure | yikes :( | 01:17 |
| kanzure | there's a part in the email - a quote - that mentions "illegal cures" | 01:18 |
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| -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] | 17:36 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 17:36 | |
| [ fenn] [ krebs] [ nsh] [ Phreedom] [ ybit] | 17:36 | |
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| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 17:36 | |
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| kanzure | Hey. | 17:45 |
| fenn | hi. | 17:55 |
| fenn | the paper knot model got my roomate's 8-yr-old daughter interested in blender | 17:56 |
| kanzure | uh, to what extent | 17:56 |
| kanzure | I would *not* recommend blender for 8 yr olds | 17:56 |
| fenn | heh why not? | 17:57 |
| kanzure | unless they can sit and click for hours and not expect results for a while | 17:57 |
| kanzure | ooh | 17:57 |
| kanzure | screw that | 17:57 |
| kanzure | http://youtube.com/ has videos on blender | 17:57 |
| kanzure | set that kid up with that | 17:57 |
| fenn | she didnt seem interested in me "helping" | 17:57 |
| kanzure | ah, that's good | 17:57 |
| kanzure | http://biobus.org/ - they drive around with equipment in a bus | 17:58 |
| kanzure | if I have to use blender, I think I'll take up the scripting approach | 18:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you found any holes in my argument from last night re: ai isn't going to solve the skdb problem? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | gmail is not responsive | 18:24 |
| fenn | yes lots of them, but you arent paying attention | 18:26 |
| fenn | an AI thinks in code, so the whole problem of turning human understanding/knowledge into codified programs doesn't exist | 18:27 |
| fenn | also, since it doesnt have the same type of hardware processing built-in (ex: face recognition) it will come up with different solutions than a human would, but it can still leverage human developments | 18:29 |
| kanzure | "debian science git repository is up and running" hurray (an email I got 12 hours ago apparently) | 18:31 |
| kanzure | sigh | 18:31 |
| kanzure | look, I don't care if it's thinking in code | 18:31 |
| kanzure | that doesn't matter | 18:31 |
| kanzure | the problem would exist even if *we* thought in code | 18:31 |
| kanzure | it still needs to be 'grounded' with instrumentation into physical reality, it still needs to be able to assemble and process the information that really hasn't been assembled yet, and it would need to do actually *do* stuff | 18:32 |
| kanzure | I'm not saying it's impossible for an ai to do it | 18:32 |
| kanzure | I'm just saying that I'm questioning the focus on building an ai first, rather than you know | 18:32 |
| kanzure | doing both things at once | 18:32 |
| fenn | the assumption is that the ai will "bootstrap" itself and become vastly more intelligent than us, so that then manufacturing problems become an insignificant background task | 18:51 |
| fenn | i see that lots of smart people have been working on AI for fifty years now and havent exactly achieved their goals | 18:52 |
| fenn | however, nobody's tried what we're doing to my knowledge | 18:52 |
| kanzure | so you think intelligence solves the manufacturing problem? | 18:57 |
| kanzure | as opposed to aggregation of knowledge that we've acquired by wrestling with experiments and modeling etc. | 18:58 |
| kanzure | I mean, I ultimately hope that intelligence can bruteforce its way out of any hell, any shithole -- believe me, I spend many hours each day in school thinking about this | 18:58 |
| fenn | no, i think the intelligence will undoubtedly find a way to do real empirical experiments in a rapid manner, without having to waste its time writing grant proposals and journal articles | 18:59 |
| kanzure | sure, okay | 19:00 |
| fenn | its not just going to sit in a box and think | 19:00 |
| kanzure | so it needs to be interfaced with the outside world | 19:00 |
| kanzure | kind of like with a manufacturing/peripheral system | 19:00 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 19:00 |
| kanzure | :) | 19:00 |
| fenn | but that doesnt mean you cant accomplish anything at all inside a box | 19:00 |
| kanzure | right, of course | 19:00 |
| kanzure | lots of good models can be made and so on | 19:00 |
| fenn | not models, more like aggregation and formalization of data | 19:01 |
| kanzure | I've found that I've been able to do some good predictive modeling of sorts ... not "here's the situation, now predict" but rather constructing ideas that I later find applicable | 19:01 |
| kanzure | instead of just-in-time learning. | 19:01 |
| fenn | sorting and assimilating information | 19:01 |
| fenn | sound familiar :) | 19:01 |
| kanzure | oh | 19:02 |
| kanzure | it doesn't really matter anyway, the "ai bootstrapping is wrong" idea doesn't matter | 19:02 |
| fenn | hmm | 19:02 |
| kanzure | oh, no, nevermind ... it's to steal Eli's funding ;-) | 19:02 |
| kanzure | I forgot. | 19:02 |
| kanzure | future archivists: I'm half joking. | 19:02 |
| fenn | you know he moved to california from illinois in order to get funding.. | 19:03 |
| fenn | i think that's a large part of it | 19:03 |
| fenn | dear google: | 19:03 |
| fenn | i know that you're young and immature, but i really think you should cut it out with the spelling substitutions | 19:03 |
| fenn | thanks, | 19:03 |
| fenn | -one of your many fleshy carbon-based subjects | 19:03 |
| kanzure | fenn: He was on the extropy-chat mailing list starting in 1999 and then got funding sometime four years later or something | 19:04 |
| kanzure | kind of peculiar | 19:04 |
| kanzure | I think he was doing some writing that got him noticed, I don't know | 19:04 |
| fenn | well, its quite interesting, have you read any of his papers? | 19:04 |
| kanzure | oh, a few | 19:05 |
| kanzure | A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation | 19:05 |
| kanzure | his intelligence-book | 19:05 |
| kanzure | one on starring into the singularity | 19:05 |
| kanzure | (which talks about big giant numbers and exponential processes ... from the context of ai) | 19:05 |
| fenn | well, the interesting and unique ones are his writing about friendliness | 19:06 |
| kanzure | ah yes, FAI arguments | 19:07 |
| kanzure | holy shit | 19:47 |
| kanzure | Myanmar's cyclone - 100k dead people, 2 million needing some sort of assistance (housing, food, medicine, supplies); - this isn't the "holy shit" part | 19:47 |
| kanzure | international support teams have been deployed, but are stopped at the borders | 19:47 |
| kanzure | the government will not issue visas to let them in | 19:47 |
| kanzure | so how's that for sick | 19:48 |
| kanzure | these people are ready to be deployed | 19:48 |
| kanzure | but they choose not to because "oh, well, we don't have visas" | 19:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: Let's get a little sick. | 20:11 |
| kanzure | In our own way. | 20:11 |
| kanzure | we can do an analysis on how well a clanking replicator could have responded to the disaster | 20:11 |
| fenn | um, no | 20:12 |
| kanzure | as a way to get funding | 20:13 |
| kanzure | within 20 days, at one day replication cycles, there'd be 1 million units | 20:13 |
| fenn | we already have self-replicating general purpose machines and they were stopped at the border because they didnt have visas | 20:13 |
| fenn | otherwise you get into political discussions | 20:14 |
| kanzure | they don't replicate fast enough, and when they *do* replicate, you need to train them for at least 12 to 15 years before they have a clue | 20:14 |
| kanzure | they weren't "stopped" - they respectfully declined to enter without visas | 20:14 |
| kanzure | the military wasn't showing up with tanks and machinery to gun them down | 20:14 |
| fenn | oh they werent? well thats stupid | 20:14 |
| fenn | i mean, more stupid | 20:14 |
| kanzure | fenn: ever read anything by Howard Bloom? Lucifer Principle, or Global Brain, in particular ? | 20:17 |
| kanzure | I'm trying to figure out if I should read them right now. I got them from a friend at the WTA. | 20:19 |
| kanzure | I'm pretty sure the Lucifer Principle is kind of like the Nonzero book (re: the nonzerosumness of collaboration throughout evolutionary history) | 20:20 |
| kanzure | erm, I shouldn't bother asking that | 20:25 |
| kanzure | need to get back to work :) | 20:25 |
| kanzure | well, shit | 21:23 |
| kanzure | http://www.openverse.com/~dtinker/agalmics.html | 21:23 |
| kanzure | I was going to go contact Robert Levin (lilo) to talk about that pape | 21:23 |
| kanzure | *paper | 21:23 |
| kanzure | but then I realized he founded freenode and proceeded to die | 21:23 |
| fenn | yep | 21:23 |
| kanzure | I didn't remember all of the updates from lilo I was getting off of freenode a year back from now | 21:24 |
| kanzure | remembr those? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | *remember | 21:24 |
| fenn | yeah he was a good guy, i dont really understand why so many people hated him | 21:24 |
| kanzure | people hated him? | 21:24 |
| fenn | maybe they were just more vocal about it | 21:24 |
| fenn | too bad the word agalmic never caught on | 21:27 |
| kanzure | it's a useful concept, "marginalization of scarcity" | 21:28 |
| kanzure | although importantly, the knee-jerk reaction is to say "but scarcity is still real, blah blah blah - don't marginalize real problems" | 21:28 |
| fenn | um, no it isnt | 21:29 |
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| kanzure | I mean to say that 'marginalization of scarcity' can be taken to mean 'marginalization of the issue of scarcity' (covering it up) (which this essay is not about, yes, but I refer to the use of the phrase (marginalization of scarcity)) | 21:30 |
| fenn | on that topic, have you read http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/ (particularly the natural resources part) | 21:30 |
| kanzure | no, please hold | 21:30 |
| fenn | its a huge linky behemoth spanning much (for me) new material | 21:31 |
| fenn | interesting site though, i recommend reading all of it | 21:31 |
| fenn | btw he discovered/invented lisp | 21:31 |
| kanzure | haha, token "E.O. Wilson" reference :) | 21:31 |
| fenn | nice | 21:32 |
| fenn | there's a lot of proactionary philosophy on that site | 21:33 |
| kanzure | he has an odd perspective | 21:34 |
| kanzure | he's trying to write for the masses apparently | 21:34 |
| kanzure | well, not "the masses" | 21:34 |
| kanzure | but a wide audience | 21:34 |
| fenn | i think its supposed to be like a 'getting up to speed' page, somethin you can point to for correcting a lot of widespread misunderstandings and baseless fears | 21:35 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:36 |
| kanzure | if he had skdb available at the time, he should have just created new projects for each of his points and jot down a few technical notes on implementation and design | 21:36 |
| kanzure | and then just aggregate all of them together to address the issues | 21:36 |
| kanzure | instead of just leaving us with a static html page that doesn't link to actual *solutions* | 21:37 |
| kanzure | (yes, the words describe solutions, sure) | 21:37 |
| fenn | hmm i dont agree with you on that | 21:37 |
| kanzure | how so | 21:37 |
| fenn | if we try to expand skdb to fulfill every type of information storage and conveyance, it'll be good at nothing | 21:37 |
| kanzure | 'information storage and conveyance' ? | 21:38 |
| kanzure | you mean, the engineering projects that are mentioned on McCarthy's page? | 21:38 |
| fenn | like, people try to use mediawiki for everything, when it's really designed to be an encyclopedia | 21:38 |
| fenn | not a blog, not a photo gallery | 21:38 |
| kanzure | so why wouldn't people use SKDB for projects | 21:39 |
| fenn | if he had nuclear reactor designs on his site, would that be better? | 21:39 |
| kanzure | probably :) | 21:39 |
| kanzure | and those designs would belong in SKDB, IMO | 21:39 |
| fenn | referencing your sources is great but it's not absolutely necessary to get the point across | 21:40 |
| kanzure | true, but part of the whole point is to provide a way for people to get involved | 21:40 |
| kanzure | that's what "getting up to speed" is about | 21:40 |
| kanzure | unlike the news, where you just hear stuff and nod | 21:40 |
| fenn | and how is skdb supposed to store stuff like "Life expectancy in both the rich and poor countries. Infant mortality in rich and poor countries. | 21:41 |
| fenn | Days lost per year due to illness.: | 21:41 |
| kanzure | no, I mean the engineering projects he mentions would go in there | 21:41 |
| kanzure | life expectancy improvement tech would go in there | 21:41 |
| kanzure | and he's free to link over to the solutions | 21:41 |
| fenn | it sounded like you wanted to put the whole webpage in an skdb project | 21:41 |
| kanzure | well ... documentation? | 21:41 |
| kanzure | doesn't that go within a project? | 21:42 |
| fenn | sure, and it should be wiki-able | 21:42 |
| fenn | i'm notoriously bad at citing references (mostly because i can't remember where i learned something) | 21:44 |
| kanzure | :( | 21:45 |
| fenn | heh remember your "squeezing the most out of google programmers" http://www.flickr.com/photos/10719678%40N08/1424289534/in/photostream/ | 21:47 |
| kanzure | heh, squeezing every last drop | 21:50 |
| fenn | this is hilarious, its about bad urban planning and suburbia http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057280178909051497 | 22:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: why doesn't unfold.py work for me? | 23:38 |
| kanzure | it generates SVG, but I don't get anything in the SVG file | 23:39 |
| fenn | it's very small | 23:39 |
| fenn | select all, then zoom to selection | 23:39 |
| kanzure | select all what ? | 23:41 |
| fenn | ctrl-a | 23:41 |
| fenn | then click on magnifying glass with a dashed box in it | 23:42 |
| fenn | or ctrl-drag on the handles to proportionally scale it up | 23:42 |
| kanzure | I'm getting nothing. | 23:43 |
| kanzure | the file is nonempty | 23:43 |
| kanzure | export to png also shows nothing | 23:44 |
| kanzure | hrm, this sucks, I'm going to have to learn blender | 23:48 |
| * kanzure goes off to youtube to hear some annoying voices | 23:48 | |
| fenn | in object mode, right-click on what you want to unfold, then run mesh->unfold, select 'curvature' and 'search' and click unfold, then save | 23:49 |
| fenn | doncha love GUI | 23:49 |
| fenn | why does LUF attract so many wingnuts | 23:50 |
| kanzure | many groups that use yahoo for mailing lists, are generally attractors of wingnuts for some reason | 23:53 |
| kanzure | just in general. | 23:53 |
| kanzure | orions_arm is an interesting exception | 23:53 |
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