| --- Day changed Sun Jun 08 2008 | ||
| Vedestin | you're going to get kidnapped | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Vedestin | and held to ransom | 00:00 |
| Vedestin | this is a targetted nigerian scam | 00:00 |
| kanzure | I'm going to be thrown over a bridge, that's what | 00:00 |
| Vedestin | in a carpet? | 00:00 |
| kanzure | no, in a casket | 00:00 |
| Vedestin | this is a confusing burial tradition | 00:01 |
| Vedestin | are you half indian or something? | 00:01 |
| kanzure | no? | 00:01 |
| Vedestin | casket + river | 00:01 |
| kanzure | well, it's the mafia | 00:01 |
| Vedestin | mafia use carpets | 00:01 |
| kanzure | is that so? | 00:01 |
| kanzure | I thought they used bags, and bricks | 00:01 |
| Vedestin | sometimes they use engine blocks and chains | 00:01 |
| kanzure | I see. | 00:01 |
| kanzure | I'll watch out for that. | 00:02 |
| Vedestin | do | 00:02 |
| Vedestin | if the meeting is scheduled at a scrap yard, don't go | 00:02 |
| kanzure | at least there aren't any bridges nearby | 00:02 |
| Vedestin | there might be a car crusher | 00:02 |
| Vedestin | i think russian mafia just shoot you and bury you | 00:03 |
| * Vedestin shrugs | 00:03 | |
| Vedestin | how do you know they're mafia | 00:03 |
| kanzure | I'm making a joke | 00:04 |
| kanzure | because the Russian government is somehow notoriously linked to their mafia | 00:04 |
| Vedestin | oh, i thought the russian transhumanists were linked to the mafia | 00:05 |
| Vedestin | i thought that was your joke | 00:05 |
| kanzure | no | 00:05 |
| kanzure | well | 00:05 |
| kanzure | they aren't | 00:05 |
| kanzure | but that is the joke, yes | 00:05 |
| kanzure | because anybody Russian has to have mafia ties, righ? | 00:05 |
| kanzure | *right | 00:05 |
| Vedestin | anybody with internet | 00:06 |
| Vedestin | or money | 00:06 |
| -!- Splicer [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 00:22 | |
| kanzure | Hey Splicer. | 00:23 |
| kanzure | What happened to Biopunk? | 00:23 |
| Splicer | russian maffia | 00:24 |
| Splicer | were you serious about being contacted by russian tranhumaninsts btw? | 00:25 |
| Splicer | claiming gov ties? | 00:25 |
| kanzure | yes | 00:26 |
| Splicer | hehehehe.. cool | 00:26 |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #hplusroadmap [] | 00:28 | |
| Splicer | I feel a bit sorry for the russians.. they have been through a lot of shit and now it looks like it's beginning again | 00:31 |
| -!- Biopunk [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 00:34 | |
| -!- Splicer is now known as Biopunk | 00:34 | |
| Biopunk | time to sleep... cu | 00:45 |
| -!- Biopunk [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [] | 00:45 | |
| kanzure | I must be running out of memory. | 01:12 |
| kanzure | Didn't I come up with the idea of abstracting the template way, using template-independence, by transfering diffused 'template ghoster molecules' (of separate triphosphate base structs, for the different polymerases), and then these polymerases would have to select a nucleotide that matches it. | 01:13 |
| kanzure | (hopefully a normal nucleotide) | 01:13 |
| kanzure | therefore I don't need to do selection nonsense | 01:13 |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 01:48 | |
| ybit | kanzure, you up? | 02:03 |
| kanzure | ybit: yes | 02:03 |
| ybit | you wouldn't happen to have an introductory neurosci ebook would you? :) | 02:03 |
| ybit | if not, i suppose i could print off my textbooks and read them instead while bored at work | 02:04 |
| kanzure | hrm | 02:09 |
| kanzure | yes, I believe I do | 02:09 |
| kanzure | but not right now | 02:09 |
| kanzure | let me get you something better | 02:09 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2//Biology/Neuroscience/index.html#3.18 | 02:09 |
| kanzure | I need sleep. g'night | 02:10 |
| ybit | 'night | 02:11 |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby"] | 08:45 | |
| -!- procto [n=boo@logarchy.org] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:05 | |
| procto | nsh: fancy seeing you here :> | 10:08 |
| * nsh victory rolls | 10:12 | |
| kanzure | Hey procto. | 11:56 |
| kanzure | procto: We seem to be in agreement re: logarchy.org. | 11:58 |
| kanzure | Ah, I see you're influenced by Max More. | 11:58 |
| kanzure | However, the first one. Governments should not be providing freedoms. They should be building new ways of liberation. | 11:59 |
| procto | hi kanzure | 12:20 |
| procto | perhaps I didn't phrase quite right. i didn't mean them to provide freedoms, but merely assuring them | 12:21 |
| procto | what freedoms exactly? depending which gov'ts subscription service you buy | 12:22 |
| procto | i'll rephrase the sentence | 12:22 |
| procto | I meant more "provide for the maintenance" | 12:23 |
| procto | kanzure: I think that's better articulated on the govt page http://logarchy.org/govt.html | 12:23 |
| procto | good catch :> | 12:24 |
| fenn | maybe you shouldn't even use the word "government" at all | 12:25 |
| fenn | it has a tendency to cause magical thinking | 12:25 |
| fenn | "the government should send a manned mission to mars" | 12:26 |
| fenn | "the government should do something about the economy" | 12:26 |
| kanzure | Hrm, assuring them? | 12:26 |
| procto | agreed. but if I ommitt the word, people who aren't used to that close up immediatly | 12:26 |
| fenn | or that it just springs up out of nowhere on its own | 12:26 |
| fenn | people have to _make_ it happen | 12:27 |
| kanzure | procto: So, let me describe something we talk about in here frequently | 12:27 |
| procto | mumbling something about anarchists | 12:27 |
| kanzure | it's actually one of fenn's uhh 'goals' or whatever | 12:27 |
| kanzure | one of his projects :) | 12:27 |
| kanzure | he wants space habitats so that he can do what he wants | 12:27 |
| kanzure | without other people interferring, and without doing anything naughty to too many others | 12:27 |
| kanzure | So, in the case of the current governments, | 12:27 |
| procto | right | 12:27 |
| kanzure | they're imposing artificial limitations on us really | 12:27 |
| kanzure | since they are giant resource hogs etc. etc. | 12:27 |
| kanzure | and they aren't trying to make it so that we are more 'liberated' | 12:27 |
| kanzure | by liberated I mean in the sense of http://heybryan.org/exp.html | 12:28 |
| kanzure | check out the Gershenfeld quote on there | 12:28 |
| * procto has bee inquiring as to the prices of decomissioned tankers and cargo ships and certain aspects of maritame law | 12:28 | |
| fenn | the current government feels threatened by civilians with rocket technology, and have imposed laws to prevent the dissemination of knowledge (ITAR) | 12:28 |
| kanzure | sure, decomissioned tech would be an interesting thing to acquire | 12:28 |
| kanzure | so I guess you're versed in micronations | 12:28 |
| kanzure | but micronations (on earth) don't quite solve the problems | 12:28 |
| kanzure | plus, their nations | 12:28 |
| kanzure | *they're | 12:28 |
| procto | agreed | 12:29 |
| procto | but it'll be a starting point | 12:29 |
| procto | it's a seed that's immediately feasible granted funding | 12:29 |
| kanzure | hrm, Max More in Second Life today: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Extropia%20Core/160/58/22/?img=http%3A//translook.com/images/9/97/Extropiacore3s.jpg&title=SL-Transhumanists%20@%20Extropia%20Core&msg=Welcome%20to%20SL-Transhumanists%20@%20Extropia%20Core | 12:29 |
| kanzure | now if only Second Life worked for me | 12:29 |
| fenn | *wank* | 12:29 |
| kanzure | but you know what, I don't know if I'm going to bother with Second Life today | 12:30 |
| procto | I'm perhaps a decade away from the funds required | 12:30 |
| kanzure | procto: What are you working towards? | 12:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: if Max wants me to use SL to hear him talk, that's totally BS | 12:30 |
| kanzure | he should just show up on skype with a chat function or something | 12:30 |
| kanzure | recently they've been wanting me to use web interfaces to listen to 'Mind' speak on justin.tv, | 12:30 |
| procto | well, a logarchy | 12:30 |
| kanzure | or Second Life to do other naughty things | 12:30 |
| kanzure | totally retarded | 12:30 |
| kanzure | we have skype, we have IRC | 12:30 |
| kanzure | and both of those have low overhead | 12:31 |
| kanzure | procto: Why's that? | 12:31 |
| procto | yes | 12:31 |
| fenn | kanzure: there is a point to SL interaction, but it shouldn't be the only information channel | 12:31 |
| fenn | most people say the same thing over and over anyway | 12:31 |
| procto | kanzure: hmm, that's a fairly complicated question. | 12:32 |
| kanzure | "Here are my points: 1, 2, 3. Okay. Any questions?" | 12:32 |
| kanzure | procto: indeed it is | 12:32 |
| fenn | if you need to attend every virtual talk, you may be a fanboy | 12:32 |
| kanzure | but I've taken similar lines of thought before, so if you do a dense text output in an attempt to explain it, I'm sure I can catch on | 12:32 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, supposedly this is a "how to get transhumanism back on track" | 12:32 |
| kanzure | but the fact that it's in Second Life makes me question it | 12:32 |
| kanzure | I mean, Max is a good guy, I've met him, he can be awesome at times | 12:32 |
| kanzure | but this is retarded :( | 12:32 |
| fenn | was it ever 'on track'? | 12:33 |
| procto | kanzure: I wish for myself to be granted certain freedoms, and in order to be self fulfilled, my close family and friends should be covered by those freedoms as well | 12:33 |
| kanzure | I'd argue yes | 12:33 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's what got the Mind Uploading Research Group together | 12:33 |
| fenn | ah, ok | 12:33 |
| fenn | its all lost in the mists of time for me | 12:33 |
| kanzure | procto: So shouldn't that be done via tech, instead of a government? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | 'granted' means totally nill when faced with the destructive firepower of this battle station | 12:33 |
| kanzure | or whatever the Star Wars quote is :) | 12:33 |
| procto | however, these freedoms cannt be granted via nonscoercive measures, if restricted to that group | 12:33 |
| kanzure | fenn: same here, I wish I would've shown up back then | 12:33 |
| kanzure | procto: what the hell are you talking about with 'granted' | 12:34 |
| kanzure | whether or not you can do X is totally dependent on technical feasability, not politics | 12:34 |
| fenn | procto: freedom is the natural state of things, only limited by oppression and coercion | 12:34 |
| fenn | and technical feasibility :) | 12:34 |
| procto | heh, I don't interact enough with other transhumanists and such, so my nomenclature is tuned to be least offensive to an average person | 12:35 |
| procto | but yes, i am fully agreed on that point | 12:35 |
| procto | so "granted" is in refernce to the current state of things | 12:35 |
| procto | where I have them restricted | 12:35 |
| procto | rather than positing an authority that may be in the business of granting freedoms | 12:36 |
| procto | when i say "government" I merely mean a framework. an infrastructure for social decisions | 12:36 |
| kanzure | I see. | 12:36 |
| procto | I think the best way to do that is via tech | 12:36 |
| fenn | perhaps you should identify the current methods of oppression and restriction forced upon you | 12:36 |
| procto | currently we have a large beurocrcay performing the same function | 12:36 |
| procto | I tend to follow a cycle of collecting knowledge intensely which alternates with creating thingC[C[C[C[C[C[C[Cs | 12:38 |
| fenn | the problem with tech is that right now you have to be a multinational corporation to provide your liberating tech to a large segment of the population | 12:38 |
| procto | right now I'm in the knowledge acquisition stage | 12:38 |
| fenn | and you need to affect a large segment of the population to influence popular opinion, cultural norms, laws, etc | 12:39 |
| procto | so i'm planning to be involved in diybio, which is how I found this channel | 12:39 |
| procto | D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D/whois fenn | 12:39 |
| procto | ding | 12:39 |
| procto | sorry, some weird lag is going on | 12:40 |
| fenn | how do you plan on avoiding harassment as a 'possible bioterrorist'? | 12:40 |
| * kanzure just read an awesome quote on extropy-chat; http://heybryan.org/emails/death_does_not_give_meaning_to_life.html | 12:40 | |
| fenn | its hard to even order chemicals, much less specific biotech reagents and kits | 12:40 |
| procto | at the moment, I am merely learning by learning, rather than learning by oind. I do not know enough of what I may want to do to formulate protection against my intentions being misconstrued | 12:41 |
| procto | perhaps it may be even more complicated for me, since I am not even a US citizen | 12:41 |
| kanzure | procto: knowledge acquistion stage? | 12:42 |
| kanzure | procto: I'm glad that you found us through diybio.org :) | 12:42 |
| kanzure | procto: http://biohack.sf.net/ was what I had online a few months before diybio.org showed up on the scene | 12:42 |
| kanzure | so now I'm organizing it a bit better, see the youtube link | 12:42 |
| procto | kanzure: yeah. i mean, I "geek out" on a subject intensely usually for a couple of mons | 12:43 |
| kanzure | it's turning into http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bioreactors but very slowly | 12:43 |
| kanzure | procto: So do I. | 12:43 |
| kanzure | procto: re: geeking out, check this stuff out: | 12:43 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/thinking.html | 12:43 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html | 12:43 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention | 12:43 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/2008-05-13_hyperfocusing.html | 12:43 |
| fenn | procto: 'larval stage' | 12:43 |
| procto | hehe | 12:43 |
| procto | i have a blog at http://mockingeye.com btw | 12:44 |
| kanzure | procto: http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-23_autoscholar.png <-- that's what my machine mostly looks like | 12:44 |
| * kanzure boots up akregator (110k unread feed items) | 12:44 | |
| * nsh chastises kanzure for 'off of' | 12:44 | |
| kanzure | nsh: hrm? | 12:44 |
| procto | and my main project right now is http://djiyo.com | 12:44 |
| nsh | "Minicolumns, genius and autism; the research being reported in the a-shade-of-grey blog article is from Casanova (m0casa02@louisville.edu) (Wp) (researcher), studying the minicolumnar basis of the hierarchical temporal memory (HTM) (cite Jeff Hawkings / On Intelligence) structure of the brain, based off of the organization of minicolumns into macrocolumns." | 12:44 |
| nsh | maybe not your notes | 12:44 |
| procto | there is nothing wrong with off of | 12:45 |
| nsh | bad americanism though. v. bad | 12:45 |
| nsh | this isn't up for debate. | 12:45 |
| kanzure | nsh: they are | 12:45 |
| kanzure | hrm | 12:45 |
| kanzure | "based off of the" | 12:45 |
| kanzure | that's bad? | 12:45 |
| nsh | from please | 12:45 |
| procto | it isn't | 12:45 |
| nsh | or i will be unable to read :-) | 12:45 |
| nsh | or 'on' | 12:45 |
| kanzure | nsh: /me goes to edit | 12:45 |
| procto | don't listen the prescriptivist brain washing :> | 12:45 |
| nsh | some things just reflect badly | 12:45 |
| fenn | 'based on' not 'based from' | 12:45 |
| * nsh nods: either from or on depending on the context | 12:46 | |
| kanzure | nsh, procto - if you read intense_world_syndrome.html, I suggest you refresh it | 12:46 |
| procto | well, there are things which you may place in certain registers. the wrong register may be being used. | 12:46 |
| kanzure | nsh: I've finally updated that page, I was stupid for not putting the intro at the top | 12:46 |
| nsh | kanzure, cool. nice one | 12:46 |
| kanzure | procto: So, one of my projects is a 'geeking out' system. See the sustained_attention wiki page I linked to above. | 12:46 |
| procto | discrimintating en the basis of register choice is worse than the misselection | 12:46 |
| nsh | procto: seriously though. it's in the same column as "could care less", and "rediculous" | 12:47 |
| kanzure | The idea is to maintain a sustained attention / hyperfocusing / insightful session for as long as possible. Btw, sleep is allowed, just saying. | 12:47 |
| kanzure | procto: re: djiyo, see http://heybryan.org/exp.html - fenn and I want to 'ground the semantic web' (in a sense) | 12:47 |
| kanzure | it's not quite the same thing | 12:47 |
| kanzure | but it's on the same plane of thought | 12:47 |
| fenn | hmm djiyo seems more relevant to augmented reality than anything | 12:48 |
| procto | nsh: that's fine. I just want you to realize that your ingrained dislike for registers, delegating them to basilect status may be unfair, and without true merit. the usual claim is that basilects somehow hinder efficient communication, which is false. | 12:48 |
| procto | fenn: yes, it's an agumented reality system | 12:48 |
| fenn | procto: wtf is a register? | 12:48 |
| procto | just that most augmented reality projects seem to be mostly working on fancy goggles | 12:49 |
| fenn | i want some fancy goggles | 12:49 |
| procto | sorry, sometimes I forget to define my terms | 12:49 |
| procto | goggles are nice, but expensive and hard | 12:49 |
| fenn | slaved to a laptop | 12:49 |
| procto | bluetooth headsets are already here and cheap | 12:49 |
| procto | and also, socially acceptable | 12:49 |
| kanzure | procto: Re: virtuality, virtual reality, other stuff like that: | 12:49 |
| kanzure | grr | 12:49 |
| kanzure | hold on, formatting | 12:49 |
| fenn | well, really i just want a small HUD based on a DLP chip | 12:49 |
| fenn | glasses-mounted, not big VR goggles so much | 12:50 |
| procto | fenn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_%28linguistics%29 | 12:50 |
| kanzure | `DZ: I would say that is exactly true. And more, I would say that the so-called virtual realities are misnamed: they should be called something like "simulated experiences." Because they aren't real, and can never be so, any more than a map can be the territory. | 12:51 |
| kanzure | And more, for the same reason that a map is necessarily less detailed than the territory that it describes, a virtual reality can only | 12:51 |
| kanzure | ever be a pale shadow of the real thing. Such constructs might prove amusing, or even useful and illuminating, but how could they ever take the place of the essential reality that they represent?` | 12:51 |
| fenn | i think nsh's objection is to 'dumbing down' the language, which leads to 'dumbing down' the interaction and the ideas presented | 12:51 |
| kanzure | there's certainly no lack of dense terminology and wordplay on my site :( | 12:52 |
| procto | I agree. how does one define what is more dumb? | 12:52 |
| fenn | if we started talking about eminem, it would be dumb | 12:52 |
| kanzure | how do you define intelligence anyway? ;-) | 12:52 |
| fenn | even if we used proper formal grammar | 12:52 |
| kanzure | Intelligence doesn't exactly have a good track record yet. | 12:52 |
| procto | most prescriptions in the english language today date from the 19th century where latin grammar was arbitrarily imposed on english | 12:52 |
| nsh | ASD? | 12:53 |
| kanzure | nsh: Autism spectrum disorders | 12:53 |
| nsh | autistic spectrum disorders? | 12:53 |
| nsh | ah | 12:53 |
| kanzure | heh, the auties out on the internet did a press release in 2004 | 12:53 |
| kanzure | asking for "international immunity" and acknowledgement as a minority group | 12:53 |
| procto | specifically as a form of social distinction | 12:53 |
| fenn | kanzure: "virtual realities" are indeed real, they're electrical currents moving around in computer chips around the world | 12:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: I just remembered that many people use 'intelligence' to mean something close to 'the ability to overcome genetic constraints'. | 12:54 |
| procto | formal grammars (distinguish from a fromal register) are unnecessary, and can hinder communication more than discregarding them | 12:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, but you're still relating them to the fundamental reality on the electrical circuits and so on | 12:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: whereas escaping into a virtual reality and thinking it's totally real, is not a good idea, for you are ignoring so much of the implementation details | 12:54 |
| nsh | did anyone read permutation city? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | nsh: I had a friend read it for me | 12:54 |
| fenn | an electrical current is just as real as sunshine and butterflies | 12:54 |
| kanzure | a 'goon' :) | 12:54 |
| * nsh smiles | 12:55 | |
| kanzure | fenn: No, there's something else going on there that I think you're neglecting. | 12:55 |
| fenn | many people escape into the wilderness, forgetting that the sun is a fusion reactor and a butterfly is an insect that's close to death | 12:55 |
| kanzure | it's more that some people think they want 'virtual reality' to replace 'reality' | 12:55 |
| procto | I'm not familira with al-l you mod els and nomenclature yet, but I strive towards making virtual "stuff" a facet of the world | 12:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: and it's important to realize that 'virtual reality' can never fundamentally replace 'reality' | 12:56 |
| nsh | one of the themes was the ontological independence of reality from its substrate | 12:56 |
| nsh | like the independence of various phase transitions to their underlying mechanics in renormalisation group theory | 12:56 |
| nsh | we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg of universality at the moment, i'd venture | 12:56 |
| fenn | kanzure: is a sign real? are buildings real? | 12:56 |
| kanzure | no matter how clueless you are, those nuclear reactors are still chugging away | 12:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: I would argue that this is more about the person's brain; should they happen to know about signs, buildings and the wilderness, would they be intellectually honest with thinking that their escapism (virtual reality) truly fixes whatever issues are out there beyond that virtual reality? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | procto: So, that merging of the digital and the physical is much of Gershenfeld's ideas. | 12:57 |
| procto | kanzure: http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-23_autoscholar.png 404 | 12:57 |
| kanzure | procto: whereas we like to stay somewhat away from Kurzweil. (These two were paired side by side in the IEEE Spectrum article this month) http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ for some essays | 12:57 |
| kanzure | procto: gimme a moment | 12:57 |
| kanzure | bah, wrong month | 12:57 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-23_autoscholar.png | 12:57 |
| fenn | time flies when you're having fun :) | 12:58 |
| procto | kanzure: did i say something kurzweilian? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | procto: no | 12:58 |
| kanzure | procto: hold on | 12:58 |
| kanzure | procto: I'm just saying that you said something like Gershenfeld. | 12:58 |
| fenn | making virtual "stuff" a facet of the world | 12:58 |
| kanzure | And I pulled out a reference to Kurzweil since Gershenfeld and Kurzweil were paired as "opposite sides of the spectrum" in IEEE Spectrum. | 12:59 |
| kanzure | And then I linked over to some F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil. | 12:59 |
| procto | ah, I see | 12:59 |
| * nsh needs to study glutamate more | 12:59 | |
| kanzure | nsh: indeed :) | 12:59 |
| kanzure | so do I. | 12:59 |
| kanzure | I want to read up on the glutamatergic system and the cholinergic system more. | 12:59 |
| procto | kanzure: Ive read thoese | 12:59 |
| kanzure | procto: /fernhout/ ? | 12:59 |
| -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 13:00 | |
| fenn | eegh | 13:00 |
| fenn | is the topic long enough yet? | 13:00 |
| kanzure | nope, maybe I can put all of my links in there | 13:00 |
| kanzure | we need a way to tone it down | 13:00 |
| fenn | all 20k of htem | 13:00 |
| kanzure | yep | 13:00 |
| * nsh is lost in entoptic phenomena | 13:01 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/topic.html | 13:02 |
| kanzure | there | 13:02 |
| procto | kanzure: yeah. I saw them linked on the diybio list | 13:02 |
| kanzure | Huh? | 13:02 |
| kanzure | oh, the fernhout essays | 13:02 |
| kanzure | good | 13:02 |
| kanzure | You like? | 13:02 |
| procto | kanzure: are you in the area? i.e. attend the diybio meetings? | 13:02 |
| kanzure | procto: No, I am in Austin, Texas. | 13:02 |
| kanzure | Totally wrong part of the continent. | 13:03 |
| procto | I like, but disagree with some parts of them | 13:03 |
| kanzure | How so? | 13:03 |
| kanzure | Oh, the microbes on virtual brains stuff | 13:03 |
| kanzure | That was a bit out there. ;-) | 13:03 |
| procto | hang on, I'll try to find an example of something I disagreed with | 13:03 |
| kanzure | I think we need some essays like that, in general. It's good to be able to point out what I don't quite like about Kurzweil. | 13:04 |
| fenn | structured argument | 13:04 |
| kanzure | hrm? | 13:04 |
| fenn | its one of the engelbart ideas that never made it into the www | 13:05 |
| fenn | not yet at least | 13:05 |
| kanzure | nsh: "One of the themes was .." <-- themes of what ? | 13:05 |
| kanzure | I think we already implement that idea though | 13:05 |
| kanzure | such as when we are trying to come up with a way to make an idea work / be technically feasible | 13:05 |
| kanzure | feasability testing / validation (re: autospec in skdb) | 13:05 |
| kanzure | or autogenix, whatever | 13:05 |
| kanzure | I think that's autogenix. not skdb. | 13:06 |
| fenn | layers of abstraction is an important engineering concept | 13:06 |
| fenn | it reduces the amount of itnelligecne reqireud to understand something | 13:07 |
| * kanzure still doesn't know about this whole 'intelligence' thing | 13:07 | |
| * fenn wonders if he's really typing this stuff | 13:07 | |
| nsh | kanzure, themes of permutation city | 13:07 |
| nsh | they upload themselves into a virtual city, running on a virtual exponentially-replicating von-neuman processor | 13:08 |
| procto | kanzure: in kurzweil1.html there is a strong argument based on work by Marshall Sahlins which i haven't read | 13:08 |
| kanzure | nsh: So, I mentioned I had a goon read it. The goon reported that Egan was talking about 'virtual realities that would separate from their fundamental reality and exist forever and ever even if the microprocessor on which it was running was smashed'. I don't know if Egan would go that route, however. | 13:08 |
| nsh | that's a rough charactature of the idea | 13:09 |
| nsh | but essentially correct | 13:09 |
| kanzure | if it's just an exponential von Neumann thing, then that's more reliable | 13:09 |
| nsh | it's worth reading the book, imho | 13:09 |
| fenn | does he use faster than light communications? | 13:09 |
| nsh | or the short story 'dust' which was its basis | 13:09 |
| * kanzure has it on his shelf | 13:09 | |
| kanzure | and in my cache apparently | 13:10 |
| kanzure | okay, I'm getting back into business mode | 13:10 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Greg%20Egan%20-%20Permutation City.pdf | 13:11 |
| kanzure | :) | 13:11 |
| fenn | missed one | 13:11 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Greg%20Egan%20-%20Permutation%20City.pdf | 13:11 |
| kanzure | fenn: instead of the selections for stupid polymerases, why not just use a polymerase that has (1) a mutated template-reading-arm that accepts an unnatural nucleotide, (2) binding to a beta clamp on a DNA strand that is being made (since the template strand thinger is taken); (3) incorporation of biosynthetic pathways into the genome so that the unnatural nucleotides can be manufactured | 13:12 |
| nsh | beta clamp? | 13:12 |
| kanzure | now we'd need an inhibition/activation genetic regulatory network / circuit deal to control the production of those unnatural nucleotides | 13:12 |
| fenn | its the polymerase subunit that attaches/slides along the DNA | 13:12 |
| kanzure | synthetic circuits would be awesome for that, unfortunately those don't work in vivo | 13:13 |
| procto | kanzure: but I disagree with the view of a hunter gatherer model as a more... idyllic way. there are some examples of agrarian, but non-specialived societies with central beurocracies. this is true only to a certain degree. yes, the farms were mostly self-sufficient, however, their surplus output is what allowed for the creation of cities, which is where the specialization occured. | 13:13 |
| nsh | i see | 13:13 |
| kanzure | procto: sure, I don't know how important the hunter-gatherer model is to his arguments | 13:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: so maybe we'd need in vitro transcription to make the proteins? but this means implementing the majority of the cellular functionality in vitro | 13:13 |
| kanzure | and that sounds absurd | 13:13 |
| procto | kanzure: at the same time, I am in total agreement as far as kurzeil utter naivete in regards to "evolution" | 13:13 |
| fenn | kanzure: you can just feed them unnatural nucleotides.. i dont know what they're used for in your experiment? | 13:14 |
| kanzure | fenn: the unnatural nucleotides are used to signal the polymerases | 13:14 |
| kanzure | so we still have four polymerases | 13:14 |
| kanzure | but each one has a modified template arm thinger that matches only to each of the four types of different unnatural nucleotides | 13:14 |
| nsh | remind me what the main objective is here, kanzure | 13:14 |
| procto | intelligence is clearly not a convergent feature | 13:14 |
| kanzure | nsh: in vitro DNA synthesizer, totally biological | 13:14 |
| fenn | in-vivo hopefully | 13:15 |
| kanzure | nsh: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/In_vitro_DNA_synthesizer | 13:15 |
| nsh | dank | 13:15 |
| kanzure | right | 13:15 |
| kanzure | fenn: so, just feeding them the unnatural nucleotides sounds like it might require additional nonbiological components | 13:15 |
| fenn | procto: the reprap project has the same problem regarding misunderstanding evolution | 13:16 |
| fenn | kanzure: ok, i thought the unnatural nucleotides were somehow part of your selection protocol | 13:16 |
| kanzure | maybe a genetic regulatory network ( http://heybryan.org/genetic-circuits.html at the bottom re: the oxytocin production circuit ) | 13:16 |
| kanzure | nope, no massive selections needed in this case :) hurray | 13:16 |
| fenn | why not? | 13:17 |
| kanzure | I mean, it might require selections for the unnatural nucleotide stuff, in a sense | 13:17 |
| kanzure | well, it's just not the same level of infeasability I suppose | 13:17 |
| kanzure | before, we were going to have to come up with a completely new polymerase | 13:17 |
| kanzure | a retarded polymerase, one that had very little chance of selection because naturally it can't produce itself and so on | 13:17 |
| kanzure | for procto or nsh or something -- a retarded polymerase that writes only A's, or only C's or only G's or only T's etc. | 13:18 |
| fenn | you're sending the information with nucleotide concentration "smoke signals"? you change the idea every couple hours, hard to follow | 13:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes | 13:18 |
| nsh | kanzure, right | 13:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: but remember, that's what we were thinking of before anyway | 13:18 |
| kanzure | with signaling polymerase. | 13:18 |
| fenn | no, not me | 13:18 |
| kanzure | yeah we were | 13:18 |
| * nsh brb but will catchup buffer (if you don't steam ahead too fast) | 13:18 | |
| fenn | too slow | 13:18 |
| kanzure | meh | 13:18 |
| fenn | and unreliable | 13:18 |
| kanzure | not unerliable | 13:18 |
| kanzure | *unreliable | 13:18 |
| fenn | you have to rely on stochastic processes like degradation | 13:18 |
| kanzure | since nucleotides diffuse quickly, I figure we can also diffuse something to eat the nucleotides before our next round | 13:19 |
| kanzure | but you're right about slowness | 13:19 |
| fenn | it will go away with a half life, a logarithmic decay curve | 13:19 |
| fenn | so 1/2^(delay) percent chance of getting it wrong | 13:20 |
| procto | must be off now! I will be back | 13:20 |
| fenn | something like that anyway | 13:20 |
| fenn | nice to meet you procto | 13:21 |
| nsh | peace procto | 13:21 |
| * nsh would suspect that protein inactivation by reactive oxygen species generation would not be easily reversible | 13:22 | |
| kanzure | my unnatural nucleotide smoke signals will not work because of the difficulty of acquiring the unnatural nucleotides | 13:23 |
| kanzure | okay, so what if we had some other random idea | 13:23 |
| kanzure | and it still required nucleotides | 13:24 |
| kanzure | it's going to :) that's a given | 13:24 |
| kanzure | these nucleotides are going to come from somewhere too | 13:24 |
| kanzure | in the bioreactor case they are going to come from cell cultures that are producing them somehow, and we just kill the part of the culture to come up with our nucleotides | 13:24 |
| kanzure | yes? | 13:24 |
| * nsh ponders | 13:24 | |
| kanzure | so that would be the same for unnatural nucleotides | 13:24 |
| kanzure | however, if we are *using* the nucleotides as smoke signals | 13:24 |
| nsh | can you explain what you mean by unnatural exactly? | 13:24 |
| kanzure | we need to either (1) control their biosynthesis and production and so on, or (2) be able to separate them very, very accurately | 13:24 |
| kanzure | nsh: there's some researchers that are able to augment the alphabet of life | 13:25 |
| kanzure | by expanding it with unnatural nucleotides | 13:25 |
| nsh | oh, i see | 13:25 |
| kanzure | so, not A's, not C's, not T's, not G's. Other stuff. :) | 13:25 |
| nsh | are they viable for long dna strands? | 13:25 |
| kanzure | apparently :) | 13:25 |
| fenn | nsh: a cell normally makes NTP's to use for energy distribution, synthesizing DNA. you cant change the concentrations if doing so kills the cell | 13:25 |
| * nsh nods | 13:26 | |
| nsh | i'm thinking | 13:27 |
| kanzure | so how would we purify unnatural nucleotides, or even NTPs, in the case of the cell cultures producing them thanks to input foods (sugars, probably) ? | 13:27 |
| kanzure | more to the point, how do we control the release of those nucleotides as smoke signals | 13:28 |
| kanzure | in genetic regulatory networks we could have feedback systems and so on | 13:28 |
| kanzure | which would be awesome | 13:28 |
| kanzure | but at the moment I don't see how any of this would work in vivo | 13:28 |
| kanzure | (the GRNs could regulate the production of those smoke signalers) | 13:28 |
| * nsh was entertaining the idea of a tandem reaction: polymerase constructing dna from NTPs and another enzyme degrading DNA to produce NTPs | 13:30 | |
| nsh | if you could have reciprocal feedback between these coupled reactions | 13:30 |
| kanzure | hm? | 13:30 |
| nsh | then you might be able to lock the logic such that nucleotides could only be added in a predetermined sequence | 13:30 |
| kanzure | yeah, some way to control the rates of each | 13:30 |
| nsh | right, so the polymerase can't do anymore until it gets some new NTPs | 13:31 |
| nsh | and the degradation enzyme needs some DNA to degrade | 13:31 |
| kanzure | yes, and the polymerases can't really move (beta clamp lock method -- just put something in its way, etc.), and the polymerases might not have motors, or something like that | 13:31 |
| nsh | right | 13:31 |
| kanzure | the degradation enzyme would be present in the "smash up a percentage of the cell culture" tank/pod/portion | 13:32 |
| kanzure | and then we need a purification system (ugh) | 13:32 |
| nsh | biggest problem then is converting the desired sequence into a system of logic gates made from these coupled reactions | 13:32 |
| fenn | i really like the tagged protein idea | 13:32 |
| fenn | for purification | 13:32 |
| kanzure | purification of NTPs? | 13:33 |
| kanzure | or just purification of everything else | 13:33 |
| fenn | no, just everything else | 13:33 |
| kanzure | hrm | 13:33 |
| nsh | i remember reading some stuff about PCR computing that seemed able to make logic gates from PCR products | 13:33 |
| fenn | its easy once you have a direct write DNA synthesizer :) | 13:33 |
| kanzure | nsh: transcriptional switches, yeah | 13:33 |
| fenn | that's kanzure's lab | 13:33 |
| nsh | cross-pairing ring a bell? | 13:34 |
| nsh | i think that was the term they used | 13:34 |
| kanzure | not quite | 13:34 |
| nsh | you have elsevier access atm? | 13:35 |
| kanzure | yes | 13:35 |
| * kanzure has most everything access :) | 13:35 | |
| * kanzure grins | 13:35 | |
| nsh | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VHX-4PKPH3T-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ae21ce2ec1e3c774443ee7d5c10b7aaa | 13:35 |
| nsh | you should set me up a proxy | 13:35 |
| * nsh annoyed to have to wait until lab to access articles | 13:35 | |
| kanzure | nsh: your lab doesn't have a proxy? | 13:35 |
| kanzure | usually it's through the library's ezproxy system | 13:35 |
| nsh | doesn't seem so | 13:35 |
| nsh | i explored briefly to no avail and no-one seemed to have a clue | 13:36 |
| * nsh should push it some more | 13:36 | |
| kanzure | finland? | 13:36 |
| nsh | university of tampere, finland | 13:37 |
| kanzure | http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/kirjasto/english/nelli/remote.php | 13:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/kirjasto/english/nelli/remote.php | 13:38 |
| kanzure | erm | 13:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.nelliportaali.fi/V/9HYD5KUUF82PDFXVK7PJ6DMIFBM9LNU38LHCQQLRM97TGGAP22-10793?func=file&file_name=home | 13:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.nelliportaali.fi/V/9HYD5KUUF82PDFXVK7PJ6DMIFBM9LNU38LHCQQLRM97TGGAP22-45380?func=file&file_name=home | 13:39 |
| nsh | yeah, it has a database of journals | 13:39 |
| nsh | but no proxy function that i could find | 13:39 |
| kanzure | right .. | 13:39 |
| kanzure | it's "remote access" | 13:39 |
| kanzure | https://weblogin.uta.fi/ | 13:39 |
| * nsh has tried :-) | 13:40 | |
| kanzure | I keep losing track of what problems I am thinking about.; | 13:41 |
| kanzure | if we have cells that can do the biosynthesis of the nucleotides, and if we have a way to do the purification procedures, I think it's good | 13:41 |
| nsh | heh, i got it working this time | 13:42 |
| nsh | kanzure++ | 13:42 |
| kanzure | so far it seems like we'd need to manually move the purified nucleotides over to the in vitro synthesizer tank | 13:50 |
| kanzure | actually, it could be in vivo since we don't need the transcriptional switches any more | 13:50 |
| kanzure | but that's only if we can get the GRN to accept laser input | 13:50 |
| kanzure | so the production of nucleotides would be within the cells, and somehow they would get to our polymerases and so on | 13:51 |
| kanzure | but how would you control those cells and their production of each of the enzymes used to make the nucleotides and so on? | 13:51 |
| kanzure | the project that I am working on in the lab is in vitro, but it is an attempt to make a system where by the frequency of laser input or some other input can be translated into kinetic changes | 13:53 |
| * nsh hates ingentaconnect | 13:53 | |
| kanzure | ingentaconnect doesn't do much to connect | 13:53 |
| nsh | should be called ingentawithhold | 13:53 |
| nsh | can you elaborate on kinetic changes? | 13:54 |
| kanzure | one of the advantages of the massive number of computer viruses out there is that many people have written viruses to steal university library proxy login credentials | 13:54 |
| * nsh smiles | 13:54 | |
| kanzure | nsh: by that, specifically, I mean that the frequency of a laser shining could be translated into morris code in some readable format by the biological circuit | 13:54 |
| nsh | morse? | 13:55 |
| kanzure | moirs? | 13:55 |
| kanzure | *moris? | 13:55 |
| nsh | . . . - - - . . . morse :-) | 13:55 |
| kanzure | right | 13:55 |
| kanzure | so that's binary | 13:55 |
| * nsh nods | 13:55 | |
| kanzure | so if the circuit involves transcriptional switches which logically dictate what actions happen next | 13:56 |
| kanzure | then you're just flipping the switches | 13:56 |
| nsh | right | 13:56 |
| kanzure | we're working on a tiny component of it | 13:56 |
| kanzure | namely the oscillator portion | 13:56 |
| kanzure | I'm not convinced yet that the entire system is feasible | 13:57 |
| nsh | is there a description of the project anywhere? | 13:57 |
| kanzure | nsh: gimme your email address | 13:57 |
| kanzure | actually | 13:57 |
| kanzure | hold on | 13:57 |
| nsh | ffr: lauri.love@gmail.com | 13:57 |
| nsh | (for future reference) | 13:57 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/ellingtonia/86-NJ820__04_14_2008_06_06_10_PM.pdf_[Q62jfc].pdf | 13:58 |
| nsh | ty | 13:58 |
| kanzure | pg 7 diagram | 13:59 |
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| kanzure | Hey Splicer. | 14:00 |
| Splicer | hi Kanzure | 14:00 |
| * nsh needs to start pushing document folding harder | 14:01 | |
| kanzure | ? | 14:01 |
| nsh | for example, that pdf: if i just wanted a basic idea of what it is, i should only need a paragraph | 14:01 |
| kanzure | sure | 14:02 |
| kanzure | the abstract :) | 14:02 |
| nsh | then if i wanted to get an overview of how it's going to be implemented, i could unfold that into there or four | 14:02 |
| kanzure | yep | 14:02 |
| nsh | then keep unfolding to the degree of detail i require | 14:02 |
| kanzure | btw, I have an idea for how to do that | 14:02 |
| kanzure | via catching the unused output of the human brain while writing sentences | 14:02 |
| kanzure | and then having machines elaborate and incorporate that data so that grammar can be 'unfolded' | 14:02 |
| kanzure | to some extent, at least. | 14:02 |
| nsh | hmm | 14:02 |
| nsh | how do you mean unused output? | 14:03 |
| kanzure | when you are thinking about what to write, there are many more things to be said than what you actually do end up saying | 14:03 |
| kanzure | this is the nature of an axon, sadly | 14:03 |
| nsh | right | 14:03 |
| kanzure | many inputs, only one output | 14:03 |
| nsh | hmm | 14:03 |
| kanzure | I don't even know what I was originally thinking of, to get the smoke signals with transcriptional switches ... it's not going to happen. You need to have enzymes. What more, you need to control the production of the nucleotides too. | 14:04 |
| kanzure | if you're using some sort of frequency input, you need that 'phase lock system' to some extent | 14:05 |
| * nsh agrees | 14:05 | |
| kanzure | but then that requires the switches | 14:05 |
| kanzure | well. | 14:05 |
| kanzure | I guess we can have transcriptional switches bound to a metal plate upstream, and have them all communicate to figure out what the frequency input is saying | 14:05 |
| nsh | hm | 14:06 |
| kanzure | need to get a message downstream | 14:06 |
| kanzure | where the cells are | 14:06 |
| Splicer | on the hi-def MRI discussion yesterday, have you seen this(x-ray):http://www.jove.com/index/Details.stp?ID=737 | 14:09 |
| nsh | 20.5 KeV is non-invasive | 14:11 |
| * nsh smiles | 14:11 | |
| Splicer | 0.7micrometer resolution | 14:13 |
| nsh | 0.7 micrometer is pretty impressive resolution | 14:13 |
| nsh | yeah | 14:13 |
| Splicer | yeah | 14:13 |
| nsh | you could probably lower that with software by some creative use of angles and displacements | 14:14 |
| nsh | argh, it's eating me! | 14:16 |
| * nsh wonders what the scan-time is | 14:17 | |
| nsh | "Samples were measured with an energy of 20.5 keV. The radiographs were recorded with a cooled CCD (ESRF FReLoN camera) with a 14-bit dynamic range, 2048×2048 pixels and an effective pixel size of 0.7 µm. 1500 projections were recorded over the 180° sample rotation with an exposure time of 0.35 s for each projection. The detector-to-sample distance was 20 mm." | 14:17 |
| kanzure | wasn't there something about genetic regulatory network logic gaes | 14:19 |
| kanzure | *logic gates | 14:19 |
| kanzure | aha, yes | 14:19 |
| nsh | mm? | 14:20 |
| kanzure | and it's my understanding that the original Elowitz ring oscillator was a GRN too | 14:20 |
| kanzure | so that means that we can potentially do all of this in vivo | 14:21 |
| kanzure | no transcriptional switches | 14:21 |
| kanzure | now the trick is seeing about an implementation of that paper re: a phase-lock loop system, implemented in terms of a GRN | 14:21 |
| kanzure | the frequency input still gets to me, I'm not sure how quite to do that in vitro nor in vivo | 14:22 |
| * nsh doesn't like it when a google query returns more PPT files than PDF | 14:22 | |
| nsh | it tells me: hype | 14:22 |
| kanzure | what query? | 14:22 |
| nsh | Elowitz ring oscillator digital logic | 14:23 |
| nsh | (also, i don't have a ppt reader on this box, annoyingly) | 14:23 |
| nsh | actually, probably less hype than pedagogical overviews | 14:24 |
| nsh | http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/pierre.lescanne/ENSEIGNEMENT/GAMES_AND_LOGIC/Wolf_D_Motifs_modules_and_games_in_bacteria.pdf looks interesting | 14:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/genetic-circuits/Toggles and oscillators - new genetic circuit designs.pdf | 14:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/genetic-circuits/Robust control in bacterial regulatory circuits.pdf | 14:25 |
| kanzure | in fact, | 14:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/genetic-circuits/ | 14:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/weiss/Towards in vivo digital circuits - protein-based - BioSPICE - Weiss - Tom Knight - dimacs99-evocomp.pdf | 14:26 |
| kanzure | Tom Knight hurray \o/ | 14:26 |
| kanzure | now I remember something sucking about GRNs | 14:27 |
| kanzure | what was it? | 14:27 |
| nsh | scaling? | 14:28 |
| kanzure | nah | 14:28 |
| kanzure | maybe something about protein engineering being needed in some cases | 14:28 |
| kanzure | I'll ask the grad student when I go back to the lab | 14:28 |
| kanzure | I wonder if I should be there today | 14:29 |
| nsh | what's the time in austin? | 14:29 |
| nsh | are you -4 UTC? | 14:30 |
| kanzure | 1:30 | 14:30 |
| kanzure | we're GMT -6 | 14:30 |
| kanzure | "I don't believe in time zones any more. I'm done with that bullshit." | 14:30 |
| kanzure | "Why?" | 14:30 |
| kanzure | "Well, are you in my time zone?" | 14:31 |
| kanzure | "No." | 14:31 |
| kanzure | "And yet you're talking with me at the same time. Huh. Seems like a scam to me." | 14:31 |
| * nsh smiles | 14:31 | |
| nsh | circadian rhythms aren't a scam :-) | 14:31 |
| kanzure | orly | 14:32 |
| nsh | they're biological baggage | 14:32 |
| nsh | and the problem is, we're not entirely sure what's in the baggage, and how useful it might be to us in the future | 14:33 |
| nsh | so we have to lug it around for a while longer | 14:33 |
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| * nsh likes how this Tom Knight paper is (C) 0000 (Copyright holder) | 14:36 | |
| nsh | i'm going to take a break and ruminate | 14:40 |
| nsh | catch you later | 14:40 |
| kanzure | cya | 14:40 |
| kanzure | http://elowitz.caltech.edu/ | 14:41 |
| kanzure | having yourname.caltech.edu is neat :) | 14:41 |
| kanzure | ' logous phenomena at other levels of biological organization. Synthetic biology: One example of this approach is the Repressilator, a synthetic oscillatory network constructed in the bacteria Escherichia coli (Elowitz & Leibler, 2000). The Repressilator is designed to cause oscillations in the level of gene expression o | 14:45 |
| kanzure | http://elowitz.caltech.edu/research.html | 14:45 |
| Splicer | It's interesting that the swatch time never took off. I thought it was a good idea at the time. | 15:30 |
| kanzure | ? | 15:30 |
| Splicer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time | 15:30 |
| kanzure | http://superkuh.ath.cx/ | 17:50 |
| kanzure | meh, maybe lasers won't be required | 17:56 |
| kanzure | just use some proteins | 17:56 |
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| kanzure | There we go. | 18:35 |
| percent | Well, I'm here. | 18:35 |
| kanzure | Where were we? | 18:35 |
| percent | Dunno, something about interior decoration? | 18:36 |
| percent | So what is this place? | 18:37 |
| percent | Some backwater biohacker haven? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | Yes. It's where I collect brains. | 18:37 |
| percent | In jars or in heads? | 18:38 |
| kanzure | Meh. Depends on how cooperative they are. | 18:38 |
| percent | Splicer runs biopunk, yes? | 18:38 |
| kanzure | Yes. | 18:38 |
| percent | So what now? I can just ask random bio questions here? | 18:39 |
| percent | Even stupid ones? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | Sure, but I'd prefer it if you have a goal in mind or something. | 18:39 |
| percent | Let's cure cancer. | 18:40 |
| percent | Actually, hepatitis D is more interesting to me. | 18:40 |
| percent | Name another virus that does genetic silencing in humans. | 18:40 |
| kanzure | Okay, so curing cancer. | 18:41 |
| kanzure | What's so bad about cancer? | 18:41 |
| kanzure | Specifically, to humans. Not in general. | 18:41 |
| percent | Aside from uncontrolled cellular growth? Nothin'. | 18:42 |
| kanzure | Uh? Impairment of functionality. | 18:42 |
| kanzure | That's a big one. | 18:42 |
| percent | I was being sarcastic. | 18:43 |
| kanzure | My point is that the problem of cancer can be treated with the nanoparticle delivery of toxic agents via laser activation, it could be treated with more stringent controls on DNA and so on, but man. It's a bad problem. | 18:43 |
| kanzure | So instead, why not just get rid of anything that fails. | 18:43 |
| percent | I don't know much about DNA repair and failure. | 18:44 |
| kanzure | Basically it all sucks. | 18:46 |
| kanzure | The alternative is to get rid of those components. Let's replace them. | 18:46 |
| kanzure | hrm, a neuronal patch clamp + neurogenesis + stem cell researcher in ##neuroscience just linked me to - http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/18/4/763 re http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html | 18:46 |
| kanzure | So, if it can go cancerous, it's not good. | 18:49 |
| kanzure | The main thing that we have to worry about is brain cancer, I think. | 18:50 |
| kanzure | Since there's generally no solution to maintaining any sense of persistency pertaining to the brain, its structures, development, any tricks the tissues might know, and so on. | 18:50 |
| Splicer | wasn't there some guy who was researching a way to boot up mithochondria in cancer cells... something about cancer bypassing mitochondria for energy and they were the ones who initiated apostosis. | 18:52 |
| Splicer | (nice to see you mr percent) | 18:54 |
| kanzure | Splicer: You mean Aubrey? | 18:56 |
| Splicer | Evangelos Michelakis | 18:57 |
| Splicer | this guy: http://twit.tv/fib21 | 18:58 |
| percent | sorry, i had a phone call | 19:03 |
| percent | Okay, I have a dumb question | 19:03 |
| percent | Let's say we have a genetic cure for cancer, magical, right? How do we implement it? | 19:04 |
| percent | And nice to meet you too, Splicer. | 19:05 |
| percent | So, if cancer cells run only on glucose...are their mitochrondia broken because of this, or are broken mitochondria the cause of this? | 19:07 |
| kanzure | Screw the cells. They suck for being cancerous. | 19:09 |
| kanzure | Backups, backups, backups. | 19:09 |
| percent | why reinvent the wheel? the cells know they're cancerous, don't they? wouldn't they undergo apoptosis if they could? | 19:10 |
| Splicer | i actually don't know how to patch something that would pass to the next generation | 19:10 |
| percent | I was speaking more about a full human body. | 19:11 |
| percent | Or a mouse. | 19:11 |
| percent | actually screw mice those things are mean | 19:11 |
| Splicer | there are many things in this I don't know... but it the current idea seems to be that cancer shuts dom mithocondria on purpose to avoid apostosis... as opposed to the way it used to be seen.. that the metabolism was a byproduct oc the cancer. | 19:14 |
| Splicer | I got into a discussion with a dr about this and she made me understand there was more to this... | 19:15 |
| percent | So, even in bacteria, the modifications wouldn't last long? | 19:16 |
| percent | And is that because of restriction enzymes? | 19:17 |
| Splicer | not sure how you mean | 19:18 |
| percent | Let's say I have bacteria. I create an altered genetic profile for it, to make it glow or something equally novel. | 19:19 |
| Splicer | yeah.. the next generation will glow too | 19:19 |
| percent | How exactly do I implement it? Wouldn't the DNA be destroyed by the bacteria's defense mechanisms? | 19:20 |
| percent | like restriction enzymes? | 19:20 |
| percent | I'm new at this, so forgive my dumb questions | 19:20 |
| Splicer | me too | 19:20 |
| Splicer | the bacteria hacking thing is hit/miss... the way I understand it the plasmids used to add the injected DNA puts it in random locations | 19:22 |
| Splicer | then the wanted bacteria are selected for.. and after that... they have that DNA and that's the DNA they copy forwards to | 19:23 |
| percent | "Copy forward" = replicates to? | 19:25 |
| kanzure | Anybody know Larry Christianse? | 19:25 |
| Splicer | percent: yes, kanzure: no | 19:26 |
| Splicer | monkeys have a cool retrovirus called PtERV... some monkeys eons ago were infected with it numerous times... so chimps have like 150 copies of it now, partially written over eachother. | 19:29 |
| percent | It says here that uracil "usually" takes the place of thyamine in in RNA. | 19:29 |
| percent | Always or usually? | 19:29 |
| percent | *thymine | 19:29 |
| Splicer | i think it always works the same way in the same organism.. but that organisms can be different | 19:30 |
| percent | Let's say I want to make a sample of one and only one type of bacteria. How would I do that? | 19:36 |
| kanzure | Hrm. | 19:37 |
| kanzure | Safety procedures might be able to detail that. Purification can be difficult, from what I hear. | 19:37 |
| kanzure | I think a good way to do it might be flamethrowers / flaming an entire chamber that you plan to use. | 19:37 |
| percent | Biohacking involves FLAMETHROWERS? | 19:38 |
| percent | best subculture ever | 19:38 |
| percent | So I have a clean chamber, what then? | 19:40 |
| Splicer | start with one bacteria maybe.. i don't know how much they spontaneously mutate | 19:41 |
| percent | And how do I go about isolating one specific bacteria? | 19:42 |
| kanzure | You usually don't. Most of the protocols out on the internet might help. Lots of people assume you just buy from some company that has something like nine 9's of purity. | 19:43 |
| percent | Sounds expensive. | 19:44 |
| kanzure | Yes. That's why I'm building the damn bioreactor-kit-toolbox-thing. | 19:44 |
| kanzure | Buy it once, let it self-replicate. | 19:44 |
| percent | I bet they'd sue you for that. | 19:45 |
| percent | Can you copyright bacteria? | 19:45 |
| kanzure | Who the hell cares? | 19:45 |
| kanzure | I mean, what are they going to do? | 19:45 |
| kanzure | "ERROR! ILLEGAL LIFEFORM DETECTED." | 19:45 |
| kanzure | Really? | 19:45 |
| percent | Depending on who finds us. | 19:46 |
| Splicer | but how important is the purity thing?... can't I just set plasmids to random collections of E Coli and see what sticks? | 19:46 |
| percent | They'll either just kill you or sue you. Or not even pay attention. | 19:46 |
| percent | I should read more about plasmids. Is e. coli an important model organism? | 19:46 |
| kanzure | Yes. | 19:46 |
| kanzure | And yeast. | 19:47 |
| percent | E. coli is easy enough to find, no? | 19:47 |
| kanzure | You shit them out. | 19:47 |
| kanzure | Wait. | 19:47 |
| kanzure | Yeah, okay. Yes, you shit them. | 19:48 |
| percent | ..is there any less disgusting way of procuring samples? | 19:48 |
| Splicer | yes | 19:48 |
| kanzure | oh, many :) | 19:48 |
| kanzure | http://www.ecolirep.umn.edu/ecoliisolation.shtml | 19:49 |
| percent | I see PCR is involved | 19:49 |
| percent | PCR is about the most important thing ever, is this true? | 19:49 |
| kanzure | PCR? | 19:50 |
| kanzure | I don't see it on that page. | 19:50 |
| percent | rep-PCR | 19:50 |
| kanzure | ? | 19:51 |
| percent | Top of the page. | 19:51 |
| Splicer | kanzure... i wrote something about gov supevision of biohacking today... it's been on my mind, could you just read it and say whay you think? | 19:53 |
| Splicer | http://www.biopunk.org/thoughts-on-public-perception-and-politics-t39.html | 19:53 |
| percent | I'd wanted to ask about that. | 19:53 |
| percent | What will the public think of underground genetic engineering? | 19:53 |
| Splicer | i'm gonna get shit now I think | 19:53 |
| Splicer | they're gonna hate it | 19:54 |
| kanzure | percent: http://synbiosafe.eu/forum/ | 19:54 |
| percent | We'll be demonized. | 19:54 |
| percent | Nothing we're not used to though, as hackers in general. | 19:54 |
| percent | I, however, don't give a damn what the public thinks of science. | 19:55 |
| kanzure | Yawn. | 19:55 |
| kanzure | Anybody who sleeps with women is a biohacker. | 19:55 |
| percent | 95% of them want a presidential debate on science. 100% of scientists want the politicians to shut up and not tell them what to do. | 19:55 |
| kanzure | I posted. | 19:58 |
| kanzure | http://www.biopunk.org/post111.html#p111 | 19:58 |
| Splicer | i agree... i thought you'd give me shit for that.. thanks | 20:00 |
| Splicer | next topic | 20:02 |
| kanzure | hm? | 20:03 |
| Splicer | (the notion that some form of supervision probably has to be endured) | 20:07 |
| kanzure | yes, I should have given you shit for that | 20:08 |
| kanzure | :) | 20:08 |
| kanzure | you're right | 20:08 |
| Splicer | ;) | 20:09 |
| kanzure | hehe | 20:20 |
| kanzure | Tony said to me, "(2008-06-08 19:24:05) Tony: I'd suggest relabeling "singularity" before you look for serious money. | 20:20 |
| kanzure | What you are really talking about is breaking the one brain one lifespan limit to the growth of intelligence." | 20:20 |
| Splicer | ? | 20:23 |
| nsh | second line is still Tony's words? | 20:24 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:24 |
| Splicer | very transhuman | 20:26 |
| kanzure | Maybe I can get him in here some time. | 20:29 |
| percent | Who's this tony? | 20:29 |
| kanzure | I met him a few years ago on the net by randomly clicking through Wikipedia. | 20:29 |
| kanzure | http://meme.com.au/ his page is not representative of what he's thinking about | 20:30 |
| nsh | what's he thinking about? | 20:30 |
| Splicer | not my kink | 20:32 |
| percent | So you're all pretty much transhumanists? | 20:32 |
| Splicer | i'm not | 20:32 |
| kanzure | I don't think most everybody here likes labels all that much. I'd say that a significant number of ideas are strikingly similar. | 20:33 |
| kanzure | nsh: still trying to get to the root of it all | 20:33 |
| * nsh is just transhuman | 20:34 | |
| nsh | , glib | 20:34 |
| percent | Care to explain? | 20:34 |
| * nsh suspects that he respects wolfram too much | 20:36 | |
| nsh | hmm? | 20:36 |
| nsh | ben goertzel does a good job of explaining (some of the reasons) wolfram is an idiot^W^Wover-confident of his own importance | 20:37 |
| kanzure | oh really? | 20:38 |
| kanzure | can you link? | 20:38 |
| kanzure | nsh: re: just transhuman, that's a good way to put it. | 20:38 |
| kanzure | Wolfram has been known to be overly self-absorbed, and if Goertzel has a good way of saying it, :) | 20:38 |
| * kanzure knows Ben's son | 20:38 | |
| Splicer | I see myself as a biopunk, when I look at the world I see evolution and natural selection. | 20:38 |
| kanzure | or at least one of them | 20:38 |
| nsh | htttp://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2002/WolframReview.htm and a few other pages on that site | 20:39 |
| kanzure | thank you :) | 20:42 |
| kanzure | ' Wolfram’s Principle of Computational Universality does contain a very deep insight, one going beyond standard universal computation theory, which is: Almost any dynamical system that doesn't lead to random or transparently fixed or oscillatory behavior, is likely to be a universal computer. ' | 20:43 |
| kanzure | heh | 20:43 |
| nsh | ironically, that statement is itself a little misleading: such systems are only potential universal computers. actually implementing universal computation within such systems would require much stronger requirements | 20:45 |
| nsh | really, wolfram showed that the complexity of ruleset required before computation can be embedded within a large enough parameter space is lower than was originally considered | 20:47 |
| nsh | but control of parameters is not such a simple thing when you're not running a simulation | 20:48 |
| nsh | and goertzel's arguments about efficiency are poignant and completely unaddressed by wolfram | 20:48 |
| procto | I used to think #swhack would get dense at times, but it was well within easy grokking limits | 20:48 |
| procto | it's nice to see the density can increase substantially | 20:49 |
| kanzure | What's #swhack? | 20:49 |
| Splicer | who's dense? | 20:49 |
| procto | another freenode chan | 20:50 |
| procto | density of information | 20:50 |
| Splicer | thanks | 20:50 |
| kanzure | I don't understand. | 21:04 |
| * nsh is not responsible, only culpable | 21:05 | |
| Splicer | ....swhack is a zoo | 21:05 |
| kanzure | but really | 21:05 |
| Splicer | hehehe | 21:05 |
| nsh | #swhack is publically logged... | 21:06 |
| Splicer | wow | 21:07 |
| kanzure | http://swhack.com/ makes sense | 21:07 |
| kanzure | but the channel doesn't | 21:07 |
| nsh | a certain times, perhaps | 21:09 |
| nsh | *at | 21:09 |
| kanzure | it looks like the idea is to randomly generate stuff to prep the mind | 21:10 |
| kanzure | but this is just Enki-2's xsublism | 21:10 |
| kanzure | *xsublims | 21:10 |
| nsh | oh? | 21:10 |
| Splicer | that was one of your first questions 'are you all bots?' | 21:12 |
| kanzure | heh :) | 21:13 |
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| kanzure | So, nsh is a bot. | 21:20 |
| nsh | how would you measure the complexity of mistaken detail. | 21:21 |
| Splicer | i'm just a sexy girl | 21:22 |
| kanzure | yep | 21:22 |
| nsh | kanzure: Discordianism is a modern religion centered on the idea that chaos is as important as order. | 21:25 |
| kanzure | Ah, so are these discords of the order of nonorder? | 21:26 |
| Splicer | <fnord> | 21:27 |
| nsh | the ratio order-in-disorder to disorder-in-order is itself amenable to reordering | 21:28 |
| Splicer | it's divisible by 5 is it not? | 21:28 |
| nsh | would have to be, i assume | 21:29 |
| Splicer | i liked RAW | 21:29 |
| kanzure | Keep the bullshit in there. | 21:30 |
| kanzure | Not in here. | 21:30 |
| nsh | Robert Anton Wilson, wrote the illuminatus trilogy and other reasonably popular fiction, as well as some pretty good nonfiction | 21:31 |
| nsh | Prometheus Rising probably the most noted, if not notable | 21:31 |
| wrldpc | I read Illuminatus! | 21:48 |
| wrldpc | Some novel ideas ... dolphin allies and so on ... private submarines. | 21:48 |
| wrldpc | Don't know who had the telepathic dolphin idea first, RAW or Gibson. | 21:48 |
| Splicer | RAW was ironic | 21:50 |
| nsh | Gregory Bateson | 21:50 |
| nsh | (he studied dolphin communication and worked with John C. Lilly on a project to teach dolpins human language) | 21:51 |
| nsh | the real experiment would be trying to teach humans dolphin language | 21:52 |
| Splicer | Wilson was my entry to the skeptics | 21:57 |
| nsh | he certainly hid the fact that he was a ranking member of the freemasons incredibly well | 21:59 |
| Splicer | was he? hehehe | 22:00 |
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| Splicer | It's not so easy to know with him. | 22:01 |
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| Splicer | nite | 22:22 |
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| percent | wait, who's talking about Robert Anton Wilson | 22:48 |
| percent | I'm currently reading Schroedinger's Cat | 22:48 |
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| wrldpc | nice | 23:17 |
| wrldpc | haven't read that yet | 23:17 |
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| kanzure | Is it possible to screw up cooking raman noodles? | 23:37 |
| Vedestin | yeah | 23:51 |
| Vedestin | you can boil them dry | 23:51 |
| Vedestin | and burn them | 23:51 |
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