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| kanzure | Hey. | 10:48 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | So I had an idea yesterday. | 10:48 |
| kanzure | I want to run it by you guys. | 10:48 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/self_replication.html | 10:48 |
| kanzure | What I've been mentioning is that self-replication is kind of like a single point-of-failure. It doesn't fail, but I mean that if your system component isn't integrated into everything else, it's not going to be self-replicating. | 10:49 |
| kanzure | Two howevers: | 10:49 |
| kanzure | (1) What if the parent unit did a secondary construction process that gave the child unit more functionality? For example, a human -> baby, but the hu gives the kid <something that the hu parent makes>. | 10:50 |
| kanzure | (2) And what if anything that isn't fully integrated into the self-replication process was completely "replaceable", in the sense that "I can use my arms to take them off and replace them with something else" ? Would that be a way to cheat the definition of self-replication? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | It occured to my sometime yesterday, so I threw up the web page and ran off. | 10:51 |
| kanzure | Since the real self-replicator in the organism is the ribosome, I was wondering how to compartmentalize the ribosome. At the moment there's the nascent chain stopping techniques in ribosome display, as well as various emulsion techniques, lysosome techniques, but those don't really interest me. | 11:04 |
| kanzure | I came up with a list of all possible ribosome compartmentalization techniques: have it output into a shell that is directly attached; have it attach to a surface that has deposition holes in it; have it make its own shell that wraps completely around it; | 11:05 |
| kanzure | All of these require molecular mechanisms that are, frankly, too hard to come up with. It would be great if we could have a ribosomal machine that makes its own buckyball to sleep in, but I'm not sure I want to go yakshaving on that. | 11:05 |
| kanzure | Also, the fact that it's all protein folding really, really sucks, and means that you're not really going to be laying down exact wires for electronics ever, that's unacceptable. But one possible method -- if we really, really wanted the self-replicable, evolvable ribosomal manufacturing unit, is to use an STM tip to inject mRNA into a ribosome at the end of the tip, and then the output channel would go into another nanotubule as | 11:07 |
| * kanzure is flipping through some notes | 11:08 | |
| kanzure | Since we can do electromechanical integration pretty well (brain interfaces aren't impossible, we can get a few bits out of the system, things are looking good), and when we considering physical manufacturing, where's the crossover? The best answer I can come up with is "your hydraulics system" (motors that pump water through pipes). We can work with electricity and magnetism pretty well, but not | 11:09 |
| kanzure | mass/matter, which I'm still stuck on. Supposedly the answer would be the ribosome (digital (DNA) data => physical manufacturing with mass/matter (the amino acids)), but you lose the precision that is required. | 11:09 |
| nsh | precision is an artifact | 11:10 |
| kanzure | meh? | 11:10 |
| kanzure | the context that I'm considering is, say, electrical wiring | 11:10 |
| nsh | it is part of a paradigm that is untenable in the biological domain | 11:10 |
| kanzure | right | 11:10 |
| kanzure | well, | 11:10 |
| kanzure | not without some very fancy evolutionary experimentation | 11:10 |
| kanzure | i.e., see spirals | 11:11 |
| kanzure | but that's not going to help me here | 11:11 |
| nsh | our understanding of engineering is distinctly idiosynchratic to the various accidents of our development (paper, metal, steam, etc.) | 11:11 |
| kanzure | while their discovery and applications are accidental, | 11:11 |
| kanzure | our ability to go dig a trench and make a brick wall | 11:11 |
| kanzure | is not. | 11:11 |
| * nsh nods | 11:11 | |
| nsh | but the underlying metaconcepts are not as amenable on the nanoscale as they are on the mesoscale | 11:12 |
| kanzure | meh, I don't care much about that | 11:12 |
| kanzure | the scale doesn't matter that much to me | 11:12 |
| nsh | unfortunately, physics does :-) | 11:12 |
| kanzure | The reason why I was thinking about ribosome is because it's the interface between digital information and manufacturing | 11:12 |
| kanzure | but I'm not in love with ribosomes. | 11:12 |
| kanzure | So, one idea that I have had in the back of my head that might be worth mentioning :-) | 11:13 |
| kanzure | have you heard of a protein array? | 11:13 |
| kanzure | I think it's just this giant 2D array of proteins tied on to a surface | 11:13 |
| kanzure | and then there's some way to do interaction studies | 11:13 |
| kanzure | Usually this is paired with mutagenesis to see what changes might do to the proteins and the interactions and whatever. | 11:13 |
| kanzure | That sounds cool. ;-) | 11:13 |
| kanzure | What I'm considering is exploding the ribosome into its subunits (it's made up of other proteins that bind together) | 11:13 |
| kanzure | and then from the action sites that we have determined from the literature, split those up as well | 11:13 |
| kanzure | and then I want to individually test all of the action sites with a big, giant repetitive experiment | 11:14 |
| kanzure | i.e., I want to reverse engineer the ribosome | 11:14 |
| kanzure | and see what problem space that evolution was playing around with | 11:14 |
| nsh | interesting idea | 11:14 |
| kanzure | so, instead of proteins on an array, we have partially folded polypeptides, maybe some proteins sometimes, mutated proteins to see what the differences would be, etc. | 11:14 |
| kanzure | I'm assuming that there's -- to some extent -- a mapping between the physical interactions and the actual problem that evolution struggled with | 11:15 |
| kanzure | but all of this isn't a guarantee at all -- it's kind of a last resort scenario | 11:15 |
| kanzure | I'm pretty sure there should be some way to do this on the macroscale, ignoring biology completely. | 11:15 |
| kanzure | where 'this' = that interface between digital/computation and manufacturing | 11:16 |
| kanzure | frankly I find it odd that the interface is "the ribosome" -- a named, single unit | 11:17 |
| kanzure | Shouldn't the design of the ribosome be implementable on a larger scale too? | 11:18 |
| kanzure | http://www.google.com/search?q=%22design+of+the+ribosome%22 grr, first result is Kurzweil | 11:18 |
| * nsh chuckles | 11:21 | |
| nsh | a potential problem is that much of the historical context to the evolutionary development may be lost | 11:22 |
| kanzure | technically the proteins fold mostly /outside/ the ribosome, so maybe my talk of ribosomes is not needed | 11:22 |
| kanzure | yep | 11:22 |
| nsh | as the environment has changed along with the organism | 11:22 |
| kanzure | the problem that evolution was solving probably wasn't protein folding | 11:22 |
| kanzure | since protein folding is of the amino acids themselves, no? | 11:22 |
| kanzure | and "solving" protein folding would mean something like being able to digitally specify what protein to make | 11:23 |
| kanzure | and as far as we know, no biological system does this | 11:23 |
| kanzure | (not even us unfortunately) | 11:23 |
| * nsh smiles | 11:23 | |
| nsh | it's dangerous to implicitly imagine a biological 'problems' in the same manner as problems solved by conscious agents | 11:24 |
| nsh | s/a // | 11:24 |
| kanzure | of course | 11:24 |
| kanzure | on that note, of dangerous things with bio, http://heybryan.org/evolution.html | 11:24 |
| nsh | there is usually no knowledge of the challenge, nor what would consitute success, save that ones genes are around where they might not have bind | 11:24 |
| nsh | aparatus has no perspective | 11:25 |
| nsh | mm | 11:25 |
| kanzure | why is polymerase and ribosome two separate entities? | 11:26 |
| kanzure | besides the obvious locality issues? | 11:26 |
| nsh | because we define entity based on a molecular bias? | 11:26 |
| kanzure | not entirely, the ribosome is made up of multiple proteins for example | 11:26 |
| * nsh is always dubious about entities and discrete components | 11:26 | |
| kanzure | if you can show me somebody who has a nondiscrete, but completely usable interpretation of molecular biology, please :) be my guest | 11:27 |
| * nsh smiles | 11:27 | |
| * kanzure realizes that saying 'molecular biology' is against the idea of nonentitious interpretations | 11:27 | |
| kanzure | so maybe call it nondiscrete nonentititous process-theoretic nanoscale biology | 11:28 |
| kanzure | or maybe information theoretic, whatever | 11:28 |
| kanzure | Yep, I was wrong. | 11:29 |
| kanzure | I forgot that the coding elements themselves are really the special features here -- the code specifies the proteins, everything else is just facilitation | 11:30 |
| nsh | hmm | 11:30 |
| kanzure | so, escaping the biological domain, let me pull out a little bit | 11:30 |
| kanzure | the important aspect is that mass/material can be integrated because of the digital specifications (coding) | 11:31 |
| kanzure | that's what I'm trying to capture here too; it's directly applicable to the design compiler and the other ideas that float around in this channel | 11:31 |
| nsh | "Those original emergent chemical conditions were dependent on the environment -- which we can determine from the rock records to some extent -- as well as by the fact that we figure they would have to be fairly simple, not some monstrous process more complicated than current organisms [although this alternative hasn't been extensively explored to my knowledge]." | 11:31 |
| kanzure | :) | 11:31 |
| nsh | i like that you considered that. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | I can do electrical interfaces very, very well -- computation, discrete stuff, it's all good | 11:33 |
| kanzure | but /me just can't figure out how to deal with mass/material | 11:33 |
| kanzure | it just kind of sits there | 11:33 |
| kanzure | and you need to pick it up | 11:33 |
| kanzure | but to pick it up you need a motor | 11:33 |
| kanzure | but to get that motor in the first place you need that mass | 11:33 |
| kanzure | I suppose it's an "all or nothing principle" -- the food for an organism supplies every single aspect of it, right on down to the nucleic acids. Whereas the supplies to a manufacturing process are just 'touched'. | 11:35 |
| nsh | i'm not sure i follow | 11:35 |
| nsh | you're referring to consumption vs. manipulation? | 11:35 |
| kanzure | perhaps; ultimately what I am trying to do here is escape object-orientation in manufacturing | 11:36 |
| kanzure | fenn mentioned a few days ago the idea of having constraints and genetic algorithms and other evolutionary techniques so that "something like a spoon" could be manufactured for a process, | 11:36 |
| nsh | that'd be nice | 11:36 |
| kanzure | but that's still object-orientation, no? | 11:36 |
| kanzure | yes, it would be :) | 11:36 |
| kanzure | I thought about it later that day and I kind of just sat there for a while until I came to a lengthy conclusion | 11:37 |
| * kanzure takes a deep breath | 11:37 | |
| kanzure | So, it kind of relates back to my two approaches to brains at this point | 11:37 |
| kanzure | as you might know, I like the idea of self-augmentation http://heybryan.org/recursion.html | 11:37 |
| kanzure | but at the same time I am also a programmer and know when the hell to sandbox changes | 11:38 |
| kanzure | don't want to run around deleting neurotransmitter receptors, do we? ;-) BAD, BAD | 11:38 |
| * nsh smiles | 11:38 | |
| kanzure | at the same time it also kind of sucks | 11:38 |
| kanzure | since we can't get much information out of these brains | 11:38 |
| nsh | well, maybe could freeze a few... | 11:38 |
| kanzure | yes, we can try freezing them, we can try implants, we can try augmentation their structures and so on | 11:38 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:38 |
| kanzure | but I'd rather have something more guaranteed | 11:38 |
| kanzure | we've frozen cat brains before (7 years); and they did show electrical activity | 11:39 |
| kanzure | and I'd be willing to do that, but in the mean time I'd rather also try some other solutions | 11:39 |
| kanzure | anyway, we're basically screwed like that | 11:39 |
| kanzure | which is fine, I'm okay with that, because there are some ways that I can cope with that (freezing, implants, whatever) | 11:39 |
| kanzure | but what about a brain that isn't so majorily screwed? | 11:39 |
| kanzure | that's the "next generation" stuff -- the "building brains", neurofarms, neuropods, using Markram's simulations and so on | 11:40 |
| kanzure | which, coincidentially, are very useful for figuring out what changes to make per http://heybryan.org/recursion.html | 11:40 |
| kanzure | *cough* it's not a coincidence | 11:40 |
| nsh | hmm | 11:40 |
| nsh | what are markram's simulations? | 11:40 |
| kanzure | whole brain simulations | 11:40 |
| kanzure | he has accurate simulations of cortical columns | 11:40 |
| kanzure | i.e., he throws all of these molecular, neurophysiological, ion channel, all of these models together | 11:41 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Henry_Markram | 11:41 |
| kanzure | there's an amazing video fi you haven't seen it yet, it's on the second link on that page, and then click the 'talk' link (it might be the first) on the resulting page | 11:41 |
| nsh | oh, this was in the google video linked here a while back, right? | 11:41 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:41 |
| nsh | right, cool | 11:41 |
| nsh | never got around to giving that my full attention | 11:41 |
| kanzure | okay, so we can build brains :) cool | 11:41 |
| fenn | yak yak yak yak | 11:41 |
| kanzure | heh, that's partly my point in all of this -- attention, etc. | 11:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: bah, hold on | 11:41 |
| fenn | ribosome is 98% RNA | 11:41 |
| fenn | the protein is just there to stabilize it | 11:42 |
| kanzure | grr, train of thought is crashing | 11:42 |
| kanzure | anyway, my idea was that those brains that we could supposedly build | 11:42 |
| kanzure | the ones that won't be screwed | 11:42 |
| kanzure | the ones that could be compartmentalized and digitized | 11:42 |
| kanzure | that's where we'd need that computation-manufacturing interface, no? | 11:42 |
| kanzure | that's where losing object-orientation would be a Good Idea. | 11:42 |
| kanzure | especially if the brains are able to manufacture themselves, or if the brain farm is completely self-replicable | 11:43 |
| kanzure | brains can already self-replicate to some extent, no? | 11:43 |
| nsh | agency problems again | 11:43 |
| kanzure | hm? | 11:43 |
| nsh | is it the brain self-replicating, or the toenails | 11:43 |
| nsh | or the genome | 11:43 |
| kanzure | no, hold on | 11:43 |
| kanzure | so adding in machinery (like a petri dish + MEA + other equipment) or infrastructure (to manage a huge farm) ... which can't make itself much? That's not a good idea. | 11:44 |
| kanzure | I think I have a better reason somewhere | 11:44 |
| kanzure | better than "it's not a good idea" | 11:44 |
| kanzure | oh, | 11:44 |
| kanzure | it was the issue that (1) the brains can do electromechanical interfaces very, very well already | 11:44 |
| kanzure | but (2) dealing with mass/matter on a scale other than "it's what sustains life and all of the nucleic acids and all of the damn proteins in the body, you fool" is the difficult part | 11:44 |
| kanzure | and where I suspect the lack of object-orientation can help out. | 11:45 |
| kanzure | aha. there we go. | 11:45 |
| nsh | what are you defining mass/matter in opposition to? | 11:45 |
| nsh | information? | 11:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: by 'ribosome is 98% RNA' does that mean mRNA or ribosomal RNA (rRNA) ? | 11:45 |
| fenn | ribosomal rna | 11:45 |
| fenn | ribozyme | 11:45 |
| kanzure | nsh: well, I'm just considering it in opposition to electricity for example | 11:45 |
| kanzure | which I know is bad | 11:45 |
| kanzure | since the electron does in fact have mass | 11:45 |
| nsh | hmm | 11:45 |
| kanzure | but consider E=MC^2 or something silly like that | 11:45 |
| kanzure | I hate to bring that up, but the mass-energy equivalencies for example | 11:46 |
| kanzure | while they might be 'equivalent', they are of different forms | 11:46 |
| fenn | a topological defect in the fabric of spacetime | 11:46 |
| nsh | but is the difference 'fundamental', or merely a product of our perceptual and conceptual dichotomising? | 11:47 |
| nsh | afaik, there is no evidence that nature necessarily conforms to a binary logic | 11:47 |
| kanzure | there has to be some way to integrate manufacturing in a /useful/ way without shoving it into the 'fundamental food' of the system (by this I mean, bio's food, which fuels the whole damn system) | 11:47 |
| fenn | occasionally subatomic particles decay into pure energy | 11:47 |
| fenn | i'm not sure about the reverse | 11:48 |
| kanzure | if the design of the system doesn't incorporate the variety that we need it to execute, does it mean that the system can't effectively deal with that variety? by this I refer to the variety from the periodic table | 11:48 |
| kanzure | *need it to execute/implement | 11:48 |
| kanzure | that's where I came up with the original statements in here today | 11:48 |
| kanzure | the idea of 'replaceable components' | 11:48 |
| kanzure | or the idea of 'the parent self-replicates, but then adds in some componentry as well' | 11:49 |
| kanzure | and whether or not those can meet the definition of self-replication | 11:49 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/self_replication.html | 11:49 |
| kanzure | nsh: so, is the difference fundamental? | 11:49 |
| kanzure | I'm wondering if I'm going to randomly run into a roadblock due to a lack of understanding of gravity or something :-p | 11:49 |
| kanzure | I hope not :) | 11:49 |
| fenn | you've been treating a replicator as a particle when it's really a wavicle | 11:50 |
| * nsh smiles | 11:50 | |
| fenn | i.e. some things are more strongly associated with perpetuating the system than others | 11:50 |
| kanzure | okay, sure | 11:50 |
| fenn | the wave 'passes through' the steak you had for dinner | 11:50 |
| kanzure | huh? | 11:50 |
| fenn | is the cow part of kanzure? | 11:51 |
| kanzure | how could a dependency loop include processes that are not depended on? | 11:51 |
| * nsh decides to walk home, thinking on these things | 11:51 | |
| fenn | you hjust set your sights too narrow | 11:52 |
| fenn | ever heard of the gaia hypothesis? | 11:52 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:52 |
| fenn | well, even earth isnt a closed system | 11:52 |
| fenn | we wouldn't be here if it weren't for water comets bombarding the earth for billions of years | 11:52 |
| fenn | so, where's the replicator? | 11:52 |
| kanzure | but you said it's a wavicle, implying that it's somewhat like a particle | 11:53 |
| kanzure | what about this notion? | 11:53 |
| kanzure | screw the replicator as an object, just imagine it's untouchable in that sense | 11:53 |
| fenn | indeed, most of the functionality is in a nice little package you can send up to a space station and around the edge of infinity and back | 11:53 |
| kanzure | it has some functionality that we may or may not know about | 11:54 |
| kanzure | but the only things that might be 'objects' are the decisions that we make in order to interface with it or hack it | 11:54 |
| kanzure | would that be appropriate? | 11:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: no, your example of a cow disagrees with the edge of infinity journey | 11:54 |
| kanzure | i.e., dependency on the biosphere processes | 11:54 |
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| kanzure | and autotrophs and whatnot to gather energy | 11:55 |
| fenn | hm i guess | 11:55 |
| kanzure | but I'm not so much concerned about "where's the replicator" | 11:55 |
| kanzure | oh | 11:55 |
| kanzure | well, I guess you were asking that wrt my question of whether or not it's okay to have "replaceable parts" or something | 11:55 |
| kanzure | i.e., hu makes a kid, but kid doesn't have arms, hu makes arms, gives kid the arms later | 11:55 |
| kanzure | and then if the kid can do the same, then it's a replicator | 11:55 |
| kanzure | this is my way of getting around the manufacturing problem | 11:56 |
| fenn | i dont get the analogy | 11:56 |
| fenn | what manufacturing problem? | 11:56 |
| kanzure | we can do electromechanical interfacing stuff very, very well, but managing materials -- without having them implemented in our food and abilities to eat food and turn them into our own bodies -- is foreign so far. | 11:56 |
| kanzure | the bootstrapping problem | 11:56 |
| fenn | what's "electromechanical interfacing"? | 11:56 |
| kanzure | many things: | 11:56 |
| kanzure | your interface with your arm | 11:57 |
| kanzure | my interface with the computer | 11:57 |
| fenn | my arm doesnt have an interface | 11:57 |
| kanzure | you have neurons to it | 11:57 |
| kanzure | to the muscles | 11:57 |
| kanzure | brain implants would also be appropriate | 11:57 |
| fenn | i can solder wires to random points in a circuit, that doesn't make it an interface | 11:57 |
| kanzure | semantics | 11:58 |
| kanzure | suggest another word for it | 11:58 |
| fenn | i use my arm to do stuff? | 11:58 |
| fenn | like press buttons | 11:58 |
| fenn | but my arm isn't well suited for manipulating molecules, is that what you're getting at? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | not quite? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | maybe this is a better way to put it | 11:59 |
| kanzure | you can retool your arm, or various parts of your brain | 11:59 |
| kanzure | but if we wanted the hu embryo to grow into a human + spaceship, we'd only have one option at the moment | 12:00 |
| kanzure | basically hoping that the hu child would make it | 12:00 |
| kanzure | i.e., CAN make it versus IT WILL make it | 12:00 |
| kanzure | whereas, if we are to take the approach of a self-replicator, isn't it supposed to be completely integrated into the design of the system? I mean, isn't it supposed to be automatic and not something left up to chance? | 12:00 |
| kanzure | this is hard to explain | 12:00 |
| kanzure | I really thought that this was the same thing as the bootstrapping problem that we face | 12:01 |
| kanzure | we have implementation ideas, but now we need the matter/energy in order to make it happen | 12:01 |
| kanzure | (bootstrapping of autogenix and the actual, physical manufacturing) | 12:02 |
| kanzure | I don't want wavicles, I want just 'waves' (I'd rather call it processes, computation, etc.). | 12:05 |
| kanzure | there's no reason manufacturing must be object-oriented | 12:05 |
| fenn | OT i'm concerned about how i didn't notice anything weird about this guy when he was at my house last week, talked to him for a couple hours and he seemed totally normal, although according to others he was abnormal: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=51308&comview=1 | 12:05 |
| fenn | supposedly he had been strung out on acid for several weeks | 12:07 |
| kanzure | huh | 12:07 |
| kanzure | here's the challenge: | 12:09 |
| kanzure | figure out a way to consider mass/materials/matter without object-orientation | 12:09 |
| kanzure | for example, a rock | 12:09 |
| kanzure | the context is it's on my front lawn | 12:09 |
| kanzure | with energy like electricity we can run around collecting it and charging batteries, running motors and generators and do whatever we like | 12:12 |
| kanzure | with mass, though, what does it do but sit there? Some of the materials could be used to make the electrical systems that we need, | 12:12 |
| kanzure | but those systems aren't self-replicating (argh!) | 12:12 |
| kanzure | "Hi RepRap! Here's the rock from my front yard!." | 12:12 |
| kanzure | <reprap just sits there> | 12:13 |
| kanzure | the typical case in the biosphere is for the hundreds of trillions of prokaryotes to run around and possibly integrate the new mass/material into their systems | 12:14 |
| kanzure | and then you can trace them through the ecosystems and food chains | 12:14 |
| kanzure | but surely there's a way to do it without aggregating organisms like that ? | 12:15 |
| fenn | and then hopefully the prokaryotes are easier to digest than the rocks | 12:15 |
| kanzure | and without integrating it into the fundamental-food-of-the-system | 12:15 |
| fenn | plants do it all the time | 12:15 |
| kanzure | it's basically (1) organism eats some stuff it doesn't know about, something that could be toxic on a large scale or something | 12:16 |
| kanzure | (2) the organism has some evolutionary pressure to mutate, or it just does so anyway | 12:16 |
| kanzure | and then by the grace of #2, #1 might come into use | 12:16 |
| kanzure | it's all an accident | 12:16 |
| kanzure | whereas our brains seem to acknowledge these materials and objects that we have around us | 12:17 |
| kanzure | maybe I should just ignore it all | 12:17 |
| kanzure | but then how would you ever extend your functionality beyond your hands ? | 12:17 |
| fenn | one aspect of intelligence is modeling things outside experience | 12:17 |
| kanzure | naughty | 12:18 |
| kanzure | you know I don't like the I word | 12:18 |
| fenn | too bad | 12:18 |
| kanzure | heh | 12:18 |
| fenn | i was going to say "brain" but that was too narrow | 12:18 |
| fenn | and inaccurate in any case | 12:18 |
| fenn | so, it seems you want a "theory of everything" really a model of everything | 12:19 |
| kanzure | I hope not | 12:19 |
| kanzure | if that's the case then I can accept the errors of my thoughts :) | 12:19 |
| fenn | "with mass, though, what does it do but sit there?" is what made me think that | 12:20 |
| kanzure | sometimes people treat 'whole systems' as if its own 'process' | 12:20 |
| kanzure | as if its own 'spirit' or 'soul' or 'directed action' or something | 12:20 |
| fenn | sure, "om" is the sound of the entire universe | 12:20 |
| kanzure | I don't know how to say that and I haven't considered if it's bunk | 12:20 |
| kanzure | so, that 'holism'/emergence works in a number of interesting cases | 12:21 |
| kanzure | ant colonies, the brain and especially intelligence, etc. | 12:21 |
| kanzure | and maybe even debian | 12:21 |
| fenn | cybernetic systems hah | 12:21 |
| fenn | let the buzzwords fly | 12:22 |
| kanzure | sure, cybernetic systems | 12:22 |
| kanzure | okay | 12:22 |
| kanzure | so given those buzzwords | 12:22 |
| kanzure | blah, I guess the real problem is that I don't actually have much of a problem that I am trying to solve here | 12:22 |
| kanzure | I'm losing my train of thought | 12:22 |
| kanzure | I really thought that the bootstrapping problem was a serious one | 12:23 |
| fenn | we're still alive mate, no worries :) | 12:23 |
| fenn | its 99% done because of that | 12:23 |
| fenn | its the old 99/1 problem | 12:23 |
| fenn | i think you're butting heads with the replicator myth | 12:24 |
| fenn | there is no replicator | 12:24 |
| fenn | we're the all-singing all-dancing crap of the world | 12:25 |
| kanzure | it also might be my distinction between electricity/energy and mass/materials | 12:25 |
| kanzure | or the distinction between process and object | 12:25 |
| kanzure | oh | 12:26 |
| kanzure | I guess objects could just be aggregated skdb files in the end anyway | 12:26 |
| kanzure | and some of these might come with a physical ,actual attachment | 12:26 |
| kanzure | i.e., "download chair;" "are we still in Austin, Texas?" "yes" "supplies negotiated and will arrive by noon" | 12:26 |
| kanzure | (that's assuming a social backbone to that individual's system) | 12:27 |
| fenn | your naive conception of 'electricity' as a thing shows that you havent worked with it much | 12:27 |
| kanzure | or something :-/ | 12:27 |
| kanzure | what do you mean though? | 12:27 |
| kanzure | I mena, the brain is able to interface with electrical systems, but we can't interface with a rock | 12:27 |
| fenn | you cant just run any old voltage through the tubes | 12:27 |
| kanzure | without busting our heads open :) | 12:27 |
| kanzure | that's true | 12:27 |
| fenn | likewise, where does that electricity come from? | 12:27 |
| kanzure | well, do we mean the flow of electrons? | 12:28 |
| fenn | it's the result of charged or magnetic masses moving about | 12:28 |
| fenn | there's also the photoelectric effect, but those photons are the result of masses oscillating | 12:28 |
| kanzure | I guess I could make an analogy to molecular computation | 12:29 |
| kanzure | most of our computation and so on is done in terms of energy, processes, and information | 12:29 |
| kanzure | I haven't seen an information theoretic approach to matter | 12:29 |
| fenn | anyway, you say 'we can use electricity to run motors and stuff' but its sorta like saying 'we can use water to turn turbines to make electricity' | 12:29 |
| kanzure | ok | 12:30 |
| kanzure | yes, you're right | 12:30 |
| fenn | do i get a cookie? | 12:30 |
| kanzure | so my interface distinction is null and void | 12:30 |
| kanzure | but then why is it that we can program and make digital circuits | 12:30 |
| fenn | because the mathematical models for electrical circuits are very simple, linear, and predictable | 12:31 |
| kanzure | and yet our 'circuits' with matter (I'm imagining either manufacturing facilities or giant chemistry lab setups) aren't similarly programmed? | 12:31 |
| kanzure | and why can't this programming be integrated into my own programming | 12:31 |
| * kanzure whines | 12:31 | |
| fenn | you cant integrate digital circuits either | 12:31 |
| kanzure | hm? | 12:31 |
| kanzure | brain implants? | 12:31 |
| fenn | you can't just stick a DIP package into your skull and be done with it | 12:32 |
| kanzure | AND gates made out of neurons? | 12:32 |
| kanzure | heh :) | 12:32 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/neuro/ | 12:32 |
| fenn | even if you had a brain implant, you couldnt 'download' procedural memory | 12:32 |
| kanzure | right | 12:32 |
| fenn | this is why we have dreams | 12:32 |
| fenn | the temporary storage buffer neurons have to 'teach' the long term memory neurons how to do stuff, and the only way is to re-live the experiences needed to use those procedures | 12:33 |
| fenn | er, experiences that cause those procedures to be used | 12:33 |
| fenn | so, you'd have to have a programmable dream machine i guess | 12:34 |
| kanzure | you're working off of your statmeent of 'modeling things that haven't happened yet' ? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | I'm guessing. | 12:34 |
| fenn | i didnt quite say that | 12:34 |
| kanzure | erm | 12:34 |
| fenn | modeling things outside of our experience | 12:35 |
| kanzure | yes, I realize I butchered that | 12:35 |
| fenn | like, i can picture you sitting there in front of your computer | 12:35 |
| fenn | cat on the bed, too many books on the floor | 12:35 |
| kanzure | I do not want to have 'intelligence' as a requirement of skdb | 12:36 |
| kanzure | ever. | 12:36 |
| kanzure | blargh, as a fundamental requirement | 12:37 |
| kanzure | as an optional requirement in some random package or whatever, meh | 12:37 |
| fenn | what are the fundamental goals of skdb? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | well, originally it was to bootstrap a self-replicating machine, namely its design | 12:37 |
| kanzure | and this was because of the requirements for recursion.html | 12:37 |
| kanzure | at least from my perspective | 12:38 |
| kanzure | plus all of the extras that it offers, like DIY manufacturing and such | 12:38 |
| fenn | 'plus' is not a fundamental goal is it? | 12:38 |
| kanzure | nope | 12:38 |
| fenn | so, you have to define what self replicating machine is | 12:38 |
| fenn | don't feel bad if you can't come up with an answer, i dont think biologist can define life either | 12:39 |
| kanzure | my ability to recombine my genome with a woman's | 12:39 |
| * kanzure cheated | 12:39 | |
| fenn | yeah that has nothing to do with self replication | 12:39 |
| kanzure | I took 'self' seriously | 12:39 |
| kanzure | okay, so the idea was to get exponential replication | 12:40 |
| fenn | in any case, your child would be only halfway you (and none of your environmental influences) | 12:40 |
| kanzure | or at least exponential duplication or whatever | 12:40 |
| kanzure | most manufacturing and building is n^2 and I want 2^n | 12:40 |
| fenn | exponential growth | 12:41 |
| kanzure | yes | 12:41 |
| fenn | in that case the only 'self' is the whole growing system | 12:41 |
| * kanzure wonders if the definition of 'growth' is important here | 12:41 | |
| fenn | yep | 12:41 |
| fenn | growth is based on functionality i think | 12:42 |
| kanzure | when I was thinking about exponential self-replication for making brain farms and brain simulations I was thinking of clanking replicators | 12:42 |
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| kanzure | but that's object-oriented | 12:42 |
| kanzure | how about a nonobject-oriented definition of growth? | 12:42 |
| kanzure | uhm | 12:42 |
| fenn | well, an increase in the number of functions possible would be considered growth | 12:43 |
| kanzure | well, the goal was to do lots of simulations of brains or at least physically implemented neural tissue slices for experimentation | 12:43 |
| fenn | this reminds me of the AI "hard takeoff" bootstrapping scenario | 12:43 |
| kanzure | so as long as that goal references objects, the definition of growth will be object-oriented | 12:43 |
| kanzure | sure | 12:43 |
| kanzure | linux treats procs as objects | 12:44 |
| fenn | they are objects, because if linux didnt herd them around they'd die | 12:44 |
| fenn | that didnt come out right | 12:45 |
| fenn | i dont like this obsession about whether something is object oriented or not | 12:46 |
| fenn | it seems to be religiously motivated | 12:46 |
| kanzure | it's shorthand for a deeper issue | 12:46 |
| kanzure | we don't care about the objects, we care about the functionality | 12:47 |
| fenn | when you speak of 'a rock' the object is the model used to represent the rock, right? | 12:47 |
| kanzure | the object is the rock | 12:47 |
| kanzure | it's right there | 12:47 |
| kanzure | sitting there | 12:47 |
| kanzure | (on my lawn) | 12:47 |
| fenn | but its just a bunch of atoms and energy | 12:47 |
| kanzure | right, so what the hell are we going to do with ti | 12:47 |
| kanzure | *it | 12:47 |
| kanzure | especially with respect to our exponential growth system | 12:48 |
| fenn | you dont care about the absolute positions of all the electrons in the rock at a particular time | 12:48 |
| kanzure | right | 12:48 |
| fenn | (unless you do) | 12:48 |
| kanzure | I don't think I do | 12:48 |
| kanzure | what is your statement trying to say? | 12:48 |
| kanzure | is it asking if I do? | 12:48 |
| fenn | but what if the rock had consciousness and you wanted to do a 'rock scan' so you can upload it into rock heaven? | 12:49 |
| kanzure | gah? | 12:49 |
| fenn | object orientation is mainly a way to organize data by relevance | 12:49 |
| kanzure | context flip for a sec | 12:49 |
| kanzure | do you recall my work on a matter beam? | 12:50 |
| fenn | not really | 12:50 |
| kanzure | ok, well, laser beams we have | 12:50 |
| kanzure | we also have matter beams | 12:50 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/ | 12:50 |
| fenn | ok, ion laser, big deal | 12:50 |
| kanzure | no | 12:50 |
| kanzure | Bose-Einstein Condensates | 12:50 |
| kanzure | it's where matter functions as a wave | 12:50 |
| kanzure | you have to get it ultracold | 12:50 |
| fenn | yeah i know, and then you can slap a hologram onto it and a puppy coalesces out of the mists | 12:50 |
| kanzure | something like e-9 torr | 12:51 |
| fenn | that's pressure | 12:51 |
| kanzure | ignore the hologram shit | 12:51 |
| fenn | why? it makes sense | 12:51 |
| kanzure | I don't care | 12:51 |
| kanzure | my point is that the matter is a beam/wave | 12:51 |
| fenn | uh, sorta | 12:51 |
| fenn | it's a coherent system | 12:51 |
| kanzure | for some reason the temperature difference forces us to treat it differently when it's at room temperature or something | 12:51 |
| kanzure | whereas we get to treat the flow of electrons as a, well, flow | 12:52 |
| kanzure | but a flow of rocks on a conveyor belt has to be a flow of rock-objects, :-/ | 12:52 |
| kanzure | I guess we could replace flow-of-rock-objects with a differential equation | 12:52 |
| kanzure | that describes the damage done to the walls of the conveyor belt system or something | 12:52 |
| kanzure | right? | 12:52 |
| kanzure | and then we could just aggregate these models together in the typical skdb sense that we've considered before | 12:52 |
| fenn | no, an equation is not a real thing | 12:53 |
| fenn | you can model the rocks with a differential equation | 12:53 |
| kanzure | how the hell do you model a lump of matter with a diff-eq? | 12:53 |
| kanzure | it's mostly constant | 12:53 |
| fenn | i dunno, what's a diff-eq | 12:53 |
| kanzure | "yep, still sitting there" | 12:53 |
| kanzure | differential equation | 12:53 |
| fenn | did you pay attention to what i said earlier about why we use electronics for digital logic circuits? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | modelability? | 12:54 |
| fenn | the models correspond to observations very well, and it makes using electronics very predictable | 12:55 |
| kanzure | oh, and then we get to the dream machine because observations and model making requires the intelligence | 12:55 |
| fenn | the dream machine is just a way to get knowledge into a brain | 12:55 |
| kanzure | or at least some sort of genetic algorithm for model construction (where the scoring function is of the new phenomenon that we're dealing with, yadda yadda) | 12:55 |
| fenn | a genetic algorithm for model construction might work ok for many situations | 12:56 |
| fenn | i'd go so far as to call it intelligence | 12:57 |
| fenn | why did you bring up bose einstein condensates? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | trying to get matter as a wave | 12:58 |
| fenn | i think it's still more complex than a simple EM wave | 12:58 |
| fenn | rubidium is still rubidium when it comes out, not gamma rays or whatever | 12:59 |
| kanzure | I think the fundamental issues are solved though | 12:59 |
| fenn | i think of it as something like a crystal in the aether | 12:59 |
| kanzure | the solution was social aggregation, just like before | 13:00 |
| kanzure | just like we determined before | 13:00 |
| kanzure | plus some way to do mutagenesis on brains or something so that we can do more pre-emptive modeling | 13:01 |
| fenn | instructables is 'mere' social aggregation | 13:01 |
| kanzure | or GAs for model construction | 13:01 |
| fenn | we're adding a formal system on top of that to allow computer manipulation of knowledge | 13:01 |
| fenn | a grammar if you will | 13:01 |
| kanzure | programming is like manipulating all of those experiences that resulted in nuggets of knowledge and applying the 'gist' of the situation to a new ant mound | 13:01 |
| fenn | eh, i think programming is really the reverse of that | 13:02 |
| kanzure | debuggign? | 13:02 |
| kanzure | *debugging? | 13:02 |
| fenn | taking the generalized 'law' and turning it into discrete, specific cases | 13:02 |
| kanzure | so which one is the skdb package | 13:02 |
| kanzure | is it the generalization | 13:02 |
| kanzure | or is the case-package ? | 13:02 |
| fenn | the specific case | 13:03 |
| fenn | with varying levels of specificity | 13:03 |
| kanzure | ok | 13:03 |
| fenn | spoon, wooden spoon, silver spoon, utensil | 13:03 |
| kanzure | but then why is it that I seem to be able to construct simple objects like that in my mind | 13:04 |
| kanzure | without having to rely on experimentation and testing | 13:04 |
| kanzure | making a new type of eating utencil, for example | 13:04 |
| fenn | uh, who says you dont have to rely on experimentation and testing? | 13:04 |
| kanzure | every four year old has their idea of an awesome new spork with extra wings or something | 13:04 |
| fenn | go try it, make a new eating utensil and see if it works | 13:04 |
| kanzure | I can see a way to fold a food-scooping mechanism with paper and tape | 13:05 |
| fenn | the difference between theory and practice is muh greater in practice | 13:05 |
| fenn | the concept of 'data point' is useful here | 13:07 |
| kanzure | now how the hell do we write code for all of this | 13:07 |
| kanzure | design compiler, inventory (data point? :p) management, blargh | 13:07 |
| fenn | meh | 13:07 |
| kanzure | I have to go back and trace the ideas here and recombine them with the arguments I was presenting earlier | 13:07 |
| kanzure | oh | 13:08 |
| kanzure | a package of tools for the modeling of new experiences or materials or things | 13:08 |
| fenn | no | 13:08 |
| kanzure | which would then be submitted back to an skdb aggregation system | 13:08 |
| kanzure | no? | 13:08 |
| fenn | that's AI | 13:08 |
| kanzure | nononono | 13:08 |
| kanzure | consider bacteria | 13:08 |
| kanzure | they can integrate new materials into their system | 13:08 |
| kanzure | like randomly coming across an awesome metal or something | 13:09 |
| kanzure | without ai | 13:09 |
| fenn | they do it with evolution which is a form of intelligence | 13:09 |
| kanzure | don't tell me that the Cherbnoyl reactor bacteria were intelligent ;-) | 13:09 |
| kanzure | (it might have been fungi, and fungi does weird shit, so maybe they /were/ intelligent) | 13:09 |
| fenn | they dont make any models of the metal and decide it might be a good idea | 13:09 |
| kanzure | right, and we can do evolution with software to some extent | 13:09 |
| kanzure | like modeling and equations software and so on | 13:09 |
| kanzure | GAs too | 13:09 |
| fenn | so feed the software and magically it pops out a set of formulas describing the system? | 13:10 |
| kanzure | nah | 13:10 |
| kanzure | what I'm thinking is that there are some tools and methods that we can use to model systems to some extent | 13:10 |
| kanzure | and then finding the right combination or sequence is the trick | 13:10 |
| fenn | what's the context here? | 13:10 |
| kanzure | that's difficult to say | 13:11 |
| kanzure | consider a new chemical reaction ? | 13:11 |
| kanzure | or maybe consider a new thing that would be socially aggregated | 13:11 |
| kanzure | one of those buzzword situations, where something 'new' has been found | 13:11 |
| fenn | a new thing | 13:11 |
| kanzure | and it needs to be 'crystalized' | 13:11 |
| fenn | not much semantic content | 13:11 |
| kanzure | so that other skdb users can go around using it | 13:11 |
| kanzure | right, but the semantics could be developed over time or something | 13:11 |
| fenn | are you just talking about the process of creating a formal grammar for describing systems? | 13:12 |
| fenn | because computers are notoriously bad at that | 13:12 |
| kanzure | no, I was thinking of the case where you're out "on the field" and you have a computer, a something 'new', and you have some tools, like a GA and some information on similar things or context-related packages or whatever, so now you're going to plug things together and try to constrain possibility space to get models or something that can be packaged for skdb | 13:12 |
| kanzure | the intelligence could be used for constraints on the possibility space that would be explored | 13:13 |
| fenn | a robot scientist | 13:13 |
| kanzure | but otherwise, the system should be able to, say, automatically build that lab | 13:13 |
| kanzure | http://expo.sf.net/ re robot scientists, who we need to go talk with eventually | 13:13 |
| fenn | i dont think it's part of the fundamental 'what makes skdb skdb' | 13:13 |
| kanzure | they have university funding so they might be another case of reprap, but they are of the bio community and so might be more friendly (if not territorial like biobarcamp) | 13:13 |
| fenn | and i stick by my assertion that it's AI | 13:13 |
| kanzure | it's definitely not a fundamental component | 13:13 |
| kanzure | however | 13:13 |
| kanzure | you pointed out 'just' a while back | 13:14 |
| kanzure | when I mentioned that it was social aggregation | 13:14 |
| kanzure | and so I was providing a few ideas on making the social aggregation actually happen | 13:14 |
| kanzure | making some tools that allow new things to be thrown into the database would be a good idea methinsk | 13:14 |
| kanzure | *methinks | 13:14 |
| fenn | i find myself clinging to the cathedral style of development | 13:17 |
| fenn | not wanting a bunch of machine generated junk dropped into the system | 13:17 |
| fenn | but humans will do that anyway | 13:17 |
| kanzure | debian has quality assessment teams | 13:17 |
| kanzure | that guard the gateways | 13:17 |
| kanzure | I thought we were going to do something like that anyway ? | 13:18 |
| fenn | yeah but it's not all designed to work together | 13:18 |
| kanzure | it harms nobody since they git-clone the whole thing anyway | 13:18 |
| kanzure | hm? | 13:18 |
| kanzure | oh | 13:18 |
| kanzure | from the ground up | 13:18 |
| fenn | it just happens to work after some massaging and cooddling | 13:18 |
| kanzure | refactoring sucks | 13:18 |
| * kanzure suspects it's why firefox still sucks | 13:18 | |
| kanzure | the code base I mean | 13:19 |
| kanzure | everything else about it is pretty awesome | 13:19 |
| fenn | firefox is developed as a cathedral.. i'm not following | 13:19 |
| kanzure | oh | 13:19 |
| kanzure | well, I was referring to the nasty codebase and how it would be a good idea to refactor it | 13:20 |
| kanzure | so that it doesn't have the issues that I've been pointing out for a while now (re: my tab addiction problem) | 13:20 |
| kanzure | and I mentioned that refactoring sucks | 13:20 |
| kanzure | not so much the cathedral distinction | 13:20 |
| fenn | but nobody else has that problem so it isnt aproblem | 13:20 |
| kanzure | simply that refactoring a large code base because something was wrong in the beginning, really, really sucks | 13:20 |
| kanzure | bah | 13:20 |
| fenn | dammit the wireless works fine when i'm the only person awake | 13:20 |
| kanzure | that's like saying just because you're sick but nobody else is, means that you're therefore not sick | 13:21 |
| kanzure | I think I once theoretically solved the refactoring problem | 13:21 |
| kanzure | I don't remember how. | 13:22 |
| kanzure | I wish I had some notes on that. | 13:22 |
| fenn | if the system as a whole does what it was designed to do, then it doesnt matter if i'm upset that there's a bunch of crap floating around the skdb intarweb | 13:22 |
| kanzure | I was complaining about it a lot one or two months ago, and I mentioned to somebody my plans about it | 13:22 |
| kanzure | it might have involved my brain plans | 13:22 |
| kanzure | sure | 13:22 |
| fenn | sounds like a bad plan then | 13:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: but the data that you /do/ receive might have to be refactored anyway | 13:22 |
| kanzure | especially if the people that are submitting it do it their own way | 13:22 |
| kanzure | see, it's still cathedral | 13:23 |
| kanzure | since they have to agree on the standards and whatever | 13:23 |
| fenn | that's a lot of work | 13:23 |
| kanzure | of course, automatic filtering of noncompliant package | 13:23 |
| fenn | you cant just turn everything away because it's not your way | 13:23 |
| kanzure | right :( | 13:23 |
| fenn | see how far that got stallman :P | 13:23 |
| kanzure | or can I? | 13:23 |
| kanzure | get lost | 13:23 |
| kanzure | heh | 13:23 |
| kanzure | well, he's not dead yet | 13:23 |
| kanzure | 99 percent, remember? | 13:24 |
| kanzure | :P I kid | 13:24 |
| fenn | yeah maybe he'll finish hurd by the time he's dead | 13:24 |
| fenn | or maybe he'll take some acid and realize he's not interested in software anymore | 13:24 |
| fenn | do you believe in self determination? | 13:25 |
| kanzure | what the hell does that mean | 13:25 |
| kanzure | :) | 13:26 |
| fenn | are we just particles banging around probabilistically, all of our desires simply a result of chance | 13:26 |
| fenn | no blame, no credit | 13:26 |
| kanzure | this is a complicated issue | 13:26 |
| kanzure | and I thought we went over it before | 13:26 |
| kanzure | brb | 13:26 |
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| kanzure | fenn: so, to answer your question | 15:37 |
| kanzure | "I am physics" | 15:38 |
| kanzure | perhaps not all of it | 15:38 |
| kanzure | and really only a quite limited subset of the possible combinations of phenomena | 15:38 |
| kanzure | and I don't understand probability/statistics. Or at least people's reliance on it. It's an easy way to 'get around' some problems. It's not so much getting around as ignoring ... | 15:42 |
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| kanzure | Hey Splicer. | 15:52 |
| kanzure | hm | 15:52 |
| Splicer | hi | 15:52 |
| kanzure | So if I go do laundry, I get to go order that new computer | 15:53 |
| kanzure | hm | 15:53 |
| kanzure | What a deal. | 15:53 |
| Splicer | a man can never have too many computers | 15:54 |
| kanzure | And in the background I'm backing up all of my data. I think the total is coming out to close to 300 GB. | 15:54 |
| kanzure | It's interesting to see cp in the background there and all of the old, old folders and packages of stuffs that I've made. | 15:54 |
| kanzure | like what the hell is /mnt/edmini/books/2008-06-21_server/home/bbishop/new_logdir2/cyanopicapica/ | 15:55 |
| kanzure | oop | 15:55 |
| kanzure | 2008-02-21_server | 15:55 |
| kanzure | Anyway, with any luck my cache will be web accessible soon. | 15:56 |
| kanzure | 452 days remaining. Geesh. And I'm being kicked out, I think. | 16:22 |
| nsh | hrm? | 16:23 |
| kanzure | nsh: I'm not sure. | 16:39 |
| kanzure | But I was told that it would be a "good idea". And that arrangements have already been made. | 16:40 |
| * nsh frowns | 16:45 | |
| Splicer | ... it's alive | 16:48 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 16:56 |
| kanzure | Oh well. I think it might be alright. There might be some free food out of it. | 16:57 |
| kanzure | And faster pipes. | 16:57 |
| nsh | pipes are always a bonus | 17:02 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/buildingbrains.html | 17:13 |
| kanzure | Oops, refresh. | 17:16 |
| kanzure | I seem to be on 11 day cycles. | 17:24 |
| kanzure | (when it comes to documents) | 17:24 |
| nsh | hrm | 17:51 |
| nsh | this channel just went back in time by half an hour | 17:52 |
| nsh | ah, no. t'was ##neuroscience | 17:52 |
| kanzure | haha :) | 17:52 |
| -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:01 | |
| kanzure | Hey willPow3r. | 18:04 |
| kanzure | Lemme upload today's logs. | 18:04 |
| willPow3r | cool | 18:04 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-06-24_hplusroadmap.html | 18:05 |
| kanzure | http://linuxpmi.org/trac/wiki/OpenMosixPatchCommentaries commentary on the linux kernel | 18:42 |
| kanzure | got this from #openmosix | 18:42 |
| kanzure | an impressive woman wrote the page | 18:42 |
| willPow3r | i didn't think there was such thing as an "impressive woman" | 18:51 |
| nsh | that might be a self-fulfilling assessment | 18:52 |
| willPow3r | if you tend to disagree, you should come on out to san diego and check out the STI incubators that attend vernor vinge's SDSU | 18:54 |
| * nsh smiles | 18:57 | |
| willPow3r | i'm biased in my view. please forgive me for my misogyny. | 18:57 |
| nsh | it don't confront me; long as i get my money next friday | 18:58 |
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| kanzure | nsh: Not self-fulfilling really, but by 'impressive' I mean to say she's not transexual and i.e., really a guy | 19:11 |
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| kanzure | nsh: Not self-fulfilling really, but by 'impressive' I mean to say she's not transexual and i.e., really a guy | 19:18 |
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| kanzure | Uhm. I lost a train of thought. | 19:40 |
| kanzure | What am I doing? | 19:40 |
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| -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 19:56 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Sun Jun 8 13:00:15 2008] | 19:56 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 19:56 | |
| [ fenn ] [ freer ] [ percent_] [ Splicer ] [ wrldpc] | 19:56 | |
| [ fenn_] [ kanzure] [ procto ] [ willPow3r] [ ybit ] | 19:56 | |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 10 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 10 normal] | 19:56 | |
| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 19:56 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 37 secs | 19:57 | |
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| willPow3r | taking your adhd medication? | 20:08 |
| kanzure | willPow3r: Hm? | 20:08 |
| kanzure | Yes, today at least. | 20:09 |
| willPow3r | heh ;) | 20:09 |
| kanzure | The reason my output has decreased is somewhat because I've been doing only half my dosage recently since I've been at the lab and not at home, but I'm fixing that starting tomorrow. It's too stupid losing so many nights just because I can't reach a cabinet fast enough. | 20:09 |
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| * kanzure wasn't at the lab today. | 20:09 | |
| willPow3r | what are you taking? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | Adderall. | 20:10 |
| kanzure | And it /works/. Off of the medication, one minute I can be as I am now, the next minute I find myself playing in the grass outside. | 20:10 |
| willPow3r | inattentive type | 20:10 |
| willPow3r | i used to take adderall, but this new med came out | 20:11 |
| willPow3r | called vyvanse | 20:11 |
| kanzure | Yeah, I tried that too. | 20:11 |
| willPow3r | its a prodrug, lisdexamphetaime | 20:11 |
| willPow3r | i really like it | 20:11 |
| kanzure | patch form. | 20:11 |
| kanzure | marketed towards kids | 20:11 |
| willPow3r | yes, thats usually where adhd medication is aimed when it comes to market | 20:12 |
| kanzure | I went in to the doc's office in late 2007 and the guy basically told me that I had Hitler syndrome, so he took me off Adderall for a week and put me on vyvanse. Blargh. Didn't go well. | 20:12 |
| kanzure | I didn't want to kill jews, so I don't think I had Hitler syndrome ;-) | 20:12 |
| kanzure | I'm actually more the H in ADHD. | 20:13 |
| willPow3r | you were going the way of pinky and the brain then? | 20:13 |
| kanzure | No, there's some other things going on, other than just ADHD. | 20:13 |
| kanzure | I'm suspecting some Aspergers. | 20:13 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html | 20:13 |
| willPow3r | class in 15. bbl | 20:13 |
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| kanzure | willPow3r: Just say when you're back. | 20:37 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_Care_Unit | 20:48 |
| kanzure | I want one. | 20:48 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B ' standard methods for producing life-critical avionics software' | 20:54 |
| wrldpc | what was that? | 21:22 |
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| kanzure | Hm? | 21:25 |
| kanzure | wrldpc: What? | 21:25 |
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| wrldpc | did you just receive the system-wide message? | 21:26 |
| wrldpc | I glanced at it. | 21:26 |
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| kanzure | wrldpc: No, I didn't. | 21:29 |
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