| --- Day changed Sat Jul 26 2008 | ||
| fenn | p2pfoundation.net is basically an illustrated proof of how fractionated (balkanized) this movement is | 00:20 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | it's almost like one of those ideonomy lists | 00:20 |
| fenn | all permutations of {open, free, collective, collaborative, co-} x {action, behavior, identity, intelligence, design} | 00:22 |
| * fenn thinks some redirects are in order | 00:23 | |
| kanzure | redirects to the actual sites? | 00:52 |
| fenn | no, just glomming concepts back together since they really mean the same thing | 00:53 |
| fenn | seems that the theoretical foundation of wuffie (doctorow's reputation economy) is stronger/more useful than advogato | 01:03 |
| fenn | er, whuffie | 01:03 |
| fenn | advogato tries to make one big happy community, with no room for dissent | 01:04 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Pausch | 01:14 |
| kanzure | yikes | 01:14 |
| kanzure | self-fulfilling prophecy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andries_van_Dam 'It's a tradition in the Brown Computer Science Department to add good natured vandalism to Andy's Wikipedia page.[citation needed]' | 01:17 |
| fenn | wtf | 01:20 |
| fenn | "its a tradition in wikipedia to leave harmful material up and delete good articles" | 01:21 |
| kanzure | eh? | 01:22 |
| kanzure | I can't (or won't) understand this: http://www.integralworld.net/wollersheim3.html | 01:33 |
| kanzure | if anybody can hack through whatever it is that the page is trying to say, please interpret for me | 01:34 |
| fenn | lol | 01:38 |
| fenn | i think this has been baked as unitarian universalism | 01:39 |
| kanzure | hm, | 01:39 |
| kanzure | Tony mentions that http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/07/166253 is Nicole Yankelovich of the Brown University Intermedia team that was mentioned in the Randy Pausch "last lecture" fiasco | 01:40 |
| kanzure | hugh. | 01:40 |
| kanzure | *huh. | 01:40 |
| fenn | it would be interesting to take an intersection set of the beliefs of all or most religions | 01:42 |
| fenn | but i think it'd be hard to get a coherent message if you just did the union set | 01:43 |
| fenn | i suppose you could do some kind of "hamming map" showing the distance from one set of beliefs to another | 01:44 |
| fenn | oh yeah, wonderland looks pretty goofy at first but they have a lot of nice code under the hood | 01:45 |
| fenn | (even though its java) | 01:46 |
| kanzure | sounds kinda like http://canonizer.com/ | 01:48 |
| kanzure | but canonizer obviously sucks for other reasons | 01:48 |
| fenn | canonizer is too crowd-sourced to provide an unbiased representation | 01:49 |
| fenn | its like, "what people who bother with canonizer believe" or would be if anyone bothered with it | 01:50 |
| fenn | blah not like i care anyway | 01:50 |
| fenn | 90% of people are crap | 01:50 |
| kanzure | it's worse than that | 01:52 |
| fenn | well, whatever your threshold is in general | 01:52 |
| fenn | i'm just deriving a statement from sturgeon's law | 01:53 |
| fenn | An important corollary to SturgeonsLaw: ... but ninety percent of everybody thinks they are part of the ten percent that's not crap. | 01:54 |
| fenn | c2 is great.. i wonder how they maintain the high SNR | 01:55 |
| fenn | hmm.. they point out that you can take advantage of people's bias/inability-to-evaluate-their-own-abilities by making them feel good and thus they will trust you and enjoy your presence | 01:59 |
| fenn | er, by saying how capable and leet they are | 01:59 |
| kanzure | heh | 02:05 |
| kanzure | 1337 for sure | 02:05 |
| fenn | shades of optimus keyboard.. http://krotty.livejournal.com/33074.html | 02:06 |
| fenn | i think i'd rather just wear a 2d barcode thingymabob | 02:07 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 03:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: this is the damn hexayurt guy | 03:02 |
| kanzure | Vinay Gupta <hexayurt@gmail.com> | 03:02 |
| kanzure | he's the friend of the Technocalyps fellow | 03:02 |
| fenn | yep | 03:06 |
| fenn | should i watch technocalypse? | 03:07 |
| kanzure | no | 03:10 |
| kanzure | seriously, it's a waste of time | 03:10 |
| fenn | oh well | 03:11 |
| kanzure | you and I could pull something better off | 03:11 |
| kanzure | by playing a video of one of our browsing sessions or something | 03:11 |
| fenn | hmm.. video production's harder than it looks | 03:12 |
| kanzure | no doubt | 03:12 |
| kanzure | I've certainly had my fair share of video production assignments in high school | 03:13 |
| kanzure | the software tends to suck | 03:13 |
| fenn | it's kinda like writing, in that it's hard to know what the viewer understands because you've seen it fifty times in a row | 03:18 |
| kanzure | oh, well, that too | 03:18 |
| kanzure | in this edition of weird searches leading to Bryan's site: | 03:19 |
| kanzure | "salts used to make nickel nanotube by cyclic voltameter" | 03:19 |
| kanzure | second result is me on Google. | 03:19 |
| fenn | all the non-obvious flaws stick out because you're worried about them, but the big overall issues don't stand out at all | 03:19 |
| kanzure | sometimes I wonder if that's just because of having the wrong big idea | 03:19 |
| kanzure | erm, nevermind | 03:19 |
| fenn | that's a very valid statement | 03:20 |
| kanzure | but it could be interpreted to mean "if people don't understand it, it sucks" which is not the point | 03:20 |
| fenn | you can bang your head against a wall with 99% perspiration and not make a damn bit of difference | 03:20 |
| fenn | heh i'm watching the andy pausch video.. the cake is just awesom | 03:21 |
| fenn | +r +e | 03:22 |
| kanzure | ron pausch methinks | 03:22 |
| kanzure | maybe not | 03:22 |
| kanzure | 'randy' | 03:23 |
| kanzure | okay | 03:23 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 03:23 |
| kanzure | it does seem like an unnecessarily large percentage of those in academia are jerks | 03:26 |
| kanzure | he mentions that others corectly identified him as a jerk | 03:27 |
| kanzure | I do not understand. http://hca.gilead.org.il/tinderbx.html | 03:36 |
| kanzure | heh | 03:50 |
| kanzure | the Byte Scouts | 03:50 |
| fenn | i think the moral of this story is 'dont pay people too much' | 03:50 |
| kanzure | i think this guy was on acid | 03:51 |
| fenn | and possibly 'might makes right' | 03:51 |
| fenn | or something like that | 03:51 |
| kanzure | http://knol.google.com | 03:58 |
| kanzure | 'A knol is an authoritative article about a specific topic.' | 03:58 |
| kanzure | quick, let's go jump on open source | 03:58 |
| kanzure | this was as of Wednesday, hm | 03:58 |
| kanzure | I wonder if Google > Wikipedia or if knol will be > Wikipedia | 04:03 |
| kanzure | if so we might have an opportunity to set the collaborative snowball right | 04:03 |
| kanzure | Heh. http://www.8bitpeoples.com/mp3/get/492/8bp078-01-mr_spastic-net.mp3 | 04:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_contracting what? | 04:27 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_of_Watch_Manufacturing | 04:28 |
| kanzure | "There was probably no greater industrial challenge, no line of manufacturing in the world demanding such a high grade of business and mechanical ability, and such unremitting care and oversight, combined with technical skill and individual dexterity and judgment as is indispensable in systematic watch making. " | 04:28 |
| kanzure | wtf | 04:28 |
| fenn | knol seems like danny hillis' revenge | 05:18 |
| fenn | expert-pedia or whatever | 05:18 |
| kanzure | hm | 05:18 |
| fenn | re the quote, watches are harder to make than the primitive guns of the time | 05:19 |
| kanzure | guess "of the time" is the key phrase there | 05:19 |
| fenn | they werent even cartridge bullets were they? | 05:19 |
| fenn | maybe paper cartridge | 05:19 |
| fenn | i think knol is gross | 05:20 |
| kanzure | "yet another" sort of gross? | 05:20 |
| kanzure | or the implementation? the pages weren't really all that fancy .. just stupid AJAX bullshit again | 05:20 |
| kanzure | and having it in this closed database format | 05:21 |
| kanzure | how original :) | 05:21 |
| fenn | just google taking over the world kind of gross | 05:21 |
| kanzure | google should be smarter than this though | 05:22 |
| fenn | these fucking doctors think their advice is so important, at least a million times more important than anything else on wikipedia, so they have to set up their own little kingdom where they can be big dog | 05:22 |
| kanzure | isn't google made up of the people that know that making the formats to share this data would be more long term sustaintable? | 05:22 |
| kanzure | *sustainable | 05:22 |
| kanzure | *that should know | 05:22 |
| fenn | google is like bell labs in the 70's | 05:22 |
| kanzure | wasn't bell labs mostly the 50s and 60s ? | 05:22 |
| fenn | eh, not really | 05:23 |
| kanzure | transistor? | 05:23 |
| kanzure | google is a powerhouse of postdocs last I heard, but if these guys are so bright, ... | 05:23 |
| fenn | The 1950s saw fewer developments and less activity on the scientific side. ... The 1970s and 1980s saw more and more computer-related inventions at the Bell Laboratories as part of the personal computing revolution | 05:24 |
| fenn | specifically i was thinking of Unix, C, and "worse is better" | 05:25 |
| kanzure | I hardly see Google doing the equivalent of unix | 05:26 |
| fenn | they Are building an operating system.. :\ | 05:27 |
| kanzure | not you too :p | 05:27 |
| fenn | anyway, how is knol collaborative? | 05:28 |
| kanzure | first time I swear I've heard of building an operating system by publicity | 05:28 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 05:28 |
| kanzure | Microsoft | 05:28 |
| kanzure | damn. | 05:28 |
| fenn | ms-dos wasn't half bad | 05:28 |
| fenn | i think they stole it from some other company though | 05:28 |
| kanzure | I think I remember some DOS machines and could grok the overal scheme it was working from | 05:29 |
| kanzure | it worked I guess, but I do admit preferance to the nixes | 05:29 |
| kanzure | *preference | 05:29 |
| fenn | early unix was rather warty | 05:29 |
| kanzure | early unix was proprietary I recall :) | 05:30 |
| fenn | but it had principles at least | 05:30 |
| kanzure | I have no experience with the originals | 05:30 |
| fenn | i've only used irix | 05:30 |
| fenn | supposedly it was one of the better ones | 05:31 |
| fenn | ffs knol isnt even organized at all | 05:37 |
| fenn | "Bag o'knols" | 05:37 |
| fenn | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next | 05:37 |
| kanzure | how many per page? | 05:38 |
| fenn | 50 | 05:39 |
| kanzure | 350 knols and I know about it? | 05:39 |
| kanzure | so this must be early? | 05:39 |
| kanzure | or possibly stupid | 05:39 |
| fenn | its 95% medical subjects | 05:39 |
| fenn | er.. medical advice | 05:39 |
| fenn | i'd love to see a 'lonk' as uncyclopedia is to wikipedia | 05:41 |
| kanzure | I need a better way to write exp.html | 05:42 |
| kanzure | maybe I should just put up a todo list | 05:42 |
| kanzure | "make git + wiki" | 05:42 |
| kanzure | "make py-yaml validator using gnu units as backend" | 05:43 |
| kanzure | "make tons of shitty python classes to represent manufacturable thinglets" | 05:43 |
| kanzure | actually, git + wiki, I was thinking that it might be more productive to just let each user have their own 'ghosted' git clone on the server side | 05:44 |
| kanzure | I don't know how else to run it really | 05:44 |
| kanzure | maybe git keeps track of user changes when it's on a single host? | 05:44 |
| kanzure | i.e., the differences that chown modifies? | 05:44 |
| fenn | todo list == roadmap no? | 05:44 |
| fenn | whatever floats your boat :) | 05:44 |
| kanzure | yeah, yeah, whatever | 05:45 |
| fenn | why would each user have their own clone? just make branche | 05:45 |
| kanzure | how does this work? | 05:45 |
| fenn | uh, you know what a branch is right? | 05:45 |
| kanzure | thought I did | 05:45 |
| fenn | well, one way to think of it is like you undo a bunch of changes and then start working from there | 05:46 |
| kanzure | sure | 05:46 |
| * kanzure did this in some code bases today | 05:46 | |
| kanzure | CTRL+Z for the win, and such | 05:46 |
| fenn | another way to think of it is like making a little sandbox to play in that won't mess up everyone else's stuff | 05:46 |
| kanzure | so it's not a full clone? | 05:46 |
| fenn | no | 05:46 |
| kanzure | excellent | 05:46 |
| fenn | but it's more of a svn kind of thing because if you have your own repo you can just work on whatever you're doing with out worrying if it messes up other people's code (since they arent pulling from you until its done) | 05:47 |
| kanzure | http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~blynn/gitmagic/ch04.html branch wizardry | 05:47 |
| kanzure | right | 05:47 |
| kanzure | but if it's on a wiki server thing | 05:47 |
| kanzure | oh | 05:47 |
| fenn | then the user doesnt have to download anything | 05:47 |
| kanzure | uh, well | 05:48 |
| kanzure | http is still downloading of course | 05:48 |
| kanzure | my "oh" was the idea of faking a wiki for users | 05:48 |
| kanzure | since they don't git it | 05:48 |
| kanzure | javascript + ajax bullshit => magical 'wiki' | 05:48 |
| kanzure | where they do, in fact, host a mini repo on their end | 05:48 |
| kanzure | either in cookies or on their local system somewhere else | 05:48 |
| kanzure | but that would require some other crappy development | 05:49 |
| fenn | what is a 'mini repo'? | 05:49 |
| kanzure | not full thing | 05:49 |
| kanzure | i.e., biotech.git is 500 MB | 05:49 |
| fenn | how do you track content changes if you dont have the full repo? | 05:49 |
| fenn | (this is the only thing about git that sucks) | 05:49 |
| fenn | or maybe i just havent looked hard enough yet | 05:50 |
| kanzure | that's synchronization, right? | 05:50 |
| kanzure | which kind of sucks with asynchronous distributed development, one would expect | 05:50 |
| fenn | i _thought_ you could check out partial repos and then merge them | 05:50 |
| fenn | but i cant figure out how to do it (havent tried very hard either) | 05:50 |
| fenn | i dont think forcing people to download 500mb is a good idea | 05:51 |
| kanzure | exactly | 05:51 |
| kanzure | 'In contrary to SVN neither Git nor Mercurial can handle partial repositories, so you always have to download all of it and cannot restrict the download to a ...' | 05:51 |
| fenn | this conflicts with what linus said | 05:51 |
| fenn | supposedly you can track a subset of content | 05:51 |
| kanzure | http://lists.openfabrics.org/pipermail/general/2006-November/028473.html "git cloning partial tree" | 05:51 |
| kanzure | 'The first format is what "git-apply --index-info" reports, and used to reconstruct a partial tree that is used for phony merge base tree when falling back ...' | 05:52 |
| fenn | derr.. | 05:52 |
| fenn | but what do you do with this partial checkout once you've modified it? | 05:52 |
| kanzure | supposedly you send it back? | 05:52 |
| kanzure | well | 05:53 |
| kanzure | at least advertise it or something | 05:53 |
| kanzure | I don't know. | 05:53 |
| kanzure | you tell me? | 05:53 |
| fenn | it just doesnt make sense to do that if you can't merge it back in somehow | 05:53 |
| kanzure | which is svn | 05:53 |
| fenn | otherwise you might as well just submit a patch | 05:53 |
| fenn | oh hmm | 05:54 |
| fenn | git-checkout doesnt need a repo to work | 05:54 |
| fenn | so maybe you can't commit once you download the files | 05:54 |
| fenn | s/repo/local repo/ | 05:55 |
| kanzure | but what about people wanting to do development work? 500 MB again. | 05:55 |
| fenn | what kind of development work? | 05:56 |
| fenn | there's always ssh | 05:56 |
| kanzure | well, let's say there's only 2 MB of relevant source | 05:56 |
| kanzure | uh, for all of the users? | 05:56 |
| fenn | no | 05:56 |
| fenn | though if someone messed up your repo i suppose you could just undo it | 05:56 |
| kanzure | wait, let's just look at the linux kernel | 05:57 |
| kanzure | how do they do it? | 05:57 |
| kanzure | how is it that there's an "official version" ? | 05:57 |
| fenn | linus is the benevolent dictator | 05:57 |
| fenn | he says what goes in the kernel | 05:57 |
| kanzure | and then he puts up his checked out repo? | 05:57 |
| fenn | right | 05:57 |
| fenn | actually its more structured than that but that's the general idea | 05:57 |
| kanzure | but that's just svn overall | 05:57 |
| kanzure | in the end, basically. | 05:58 |
| fenn | not really | 05:58 |
| kanzure | uh? | 05:58 |
| fenn | because the code is all out there | 05:58 |
| kanzure | sure, | 05:58 |
| kanzure | but not to people not in the development circles | 05:58 |
| fenn | its not that hard to patch a kernel | 05:58 |
| fenn | before this there were mailing lists dedicated just to kernel patches | 05:58 |
| fenn | its a step up i believe | 05:58 |
| kanzure | wait, where are the links distributed then if not on mailing lists? | 05:59 |
| kanzure | my point is that the fact that Linus has access to the kernel.org site and can put up an 'official' download is somewhat like subversion in that it's the main release and that's what the majority of people see and so on | 05:59 |
| kanzure | sure the code is still out there | 05:59 |
| fenn | no you dont understand, the patches used to be sent to the mailing list directly | 05:59 |
| kanzure | oh | 05:59 |
| kanzure | not automatically integrated or somesort | 06:00 |
| fenn | ok, so i skipped a bit of important detail it seems | 06:00 |
| fenn | linus doesn't pull from all of the 99 million kernel developers | 06:00 |
| fenn | he only pulls from like 3-4 people | 06:00 |
| kanzure | he probably pulls from a few, no? | 06:00 |
| kanzure | and these few from others | 06:01 |
| fenn | yes, all the way down | 06:01 |
| kanzure | long tail dynamics | 06:01 |
| fenn | but the version history is preserved | 06:01 |
| fenn | as if they were working on one big svn | 06:01 |
| fenn | but without all the svn headaches | 06:01 |
| kanzure | the headaches were the conflicts? | 06:02 |
| fenn | conflicting development, limited branch namespace, commit access, slowness | 06:02 |
| fenn | i guess they had a lot of trouble with three way merge | 06:02 |
| kanzure | it's still generally slow if you're transferring 500 MB between developers :-) | 06:02 |
| fenn | well, dont do that! | 06:02 |
| kanzure | heh | 06:02 |
| fenn | the 500mb repo is a bad idea | 06:03 |
| kanzure | yep | 06:03 |
| fenn | it will never get smaller, only bigger | 06:03 |
| fenn | but that's not what you're trying to do, 99% of that data is irrelevant or redundant | 06:03 |
| kanzure | certainly | 06:04 |
| kanzure | still though | 06:04 |
| kanzure | if the system isn't scalable .. | 06:04 |
| fenn | if you have 500mb of code, something is wrong | 06:04 |
| fenn | look at opencascade, what a fucking mess | 06:04 |
| fenn | sure, it's "open source" and "industrial grade cad" but its impossible to use and change | 06:05 |
| kanzure | a wiki doesn't make sense in this context though | 06:08 |
| fenn | anyway, nobody's going to be doing any sorting and winnowing unless you make it clear what needs to be done by providing a framework | 06:08 |
| kanzure | and people are going to cry without their beloved wiki | 06:08 |
| fenn | a wiki is just html + version control | 06:09 |
| fenn | people are going to cry without their GUI | 06:09 |
| fenn | principle of least surprise | 06:10 |
| fenn | has anyone offered to help sort the biohack stuff? | 06:12 |
| fenn | or is it just territorial bitching 'my way is better' stuff | 06:12 |
| fenn | well, working with partial checkouts is a pain | 06:30 |
| fenn | it seems to work, you just have to be careful with git-add and git-commit to only commit the files you have (otherwise it will delete the ones you havent checked out) | 06:37 |
| fenn | what i did was: git-clone -n ~/git/autogenix.git | 06:38 |
| fenn | git-checkout master test.mdwn | 06:39 |
| fenn | nano test.mdwn | 06:39 |
| fenn | git-add test.mdwn | 06:39 |
| fenn | git-status | 06:40 |
| fenn | git-commit | 06:40 |
| fenn | it should say something like 'one file changed' | 06:40 |
| fenn | you should be able to repeat my results with git-clone -n http://fennetic.net/git/autogenix.git | 06:46 |
| fenn | donuts before bed == bad idea | 06:49 |
| kanzure | sugar? | 07:12 |
| kanzure | or teh fats? | 07:13 |
| kanzure | hm, I wonder if breakfast is open yet | 07:13 |
| kanzure | btw, are you still playing around with ikiwiki mdwn? | 07:15 |
| kanzure | and who's the one doing the territorial bitching, me? | 07:15 |
| kanzure | because no one has even offered to comment on it ;-) | 07:16 |
| kanzure | and by no one I mean absolutely no one | 07:16 |
| kanzure | Those bastards. The flatscreens in the cafeteria had a documentary on insomnia playing. | 08:33 |
| kanzure | anyway, if the git-checkout and git-add method is to work it'll probably need the usage of 'adduser' on the server end of things | 08:37 |
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| kanzure | I've never implemented something like that, is that wise? | 08:37 |
| kanzure | I mean, adding user accounts on the server? | 08:37 |
| kanzure | Slashdot makes it look like that's what they are doing, but it's probably just fancy mod rewrites (and I'm too lazy to go check the slashcode) | 08:37 |
| kanzure | Sourceforge definitely does it. | 08:37 |
| kanzure | bah, it has to be less computationally intensive than doing the mysql db lookups that mediawiki does | 08:38 |
| kanzure | Tony: "Re your conversations with Gupta, Bauwens et al, my entrepreneurial colleagues have acquired some rights to an electrolysis-based system developed in (from memory) San Antonio which is supposed to do everything from purify water to provide better energy storage than batteries. | 09:21 |
| kanzure | I had a vague thought some weeks ago about having you take a look at it, but I think you were in the middle of your move out of home at the time and it slipped down my priorities." | 09:21 |
| kanzure | hm | 09:21 |
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| kanzure | fenn: 'I've got a friend who did exactly this: made a python wiki engine that uses | 10:25 |
| kanzure | mercurial as revision control: http://dandelion.sheep.art.pl/ also makes it | 10:25 |
| kanzure | possible to sync up wikis, fork them, clone them, many other possibilities. | 10:25 |
| kanzure | I am using this as a personal wiki on my desktop, and also experimenting | 10:25 |
| kanzure | with developing many different front-ends for it. | 10:25 |
| kanzure | ' | 10:25 |
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| ybit | http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrWhy | 14:34 |
| fenn | "Revision objects are simple: r1, r2 etc. In git they are SHA1s" | 14:52 |
| fenn | this is because there's no central repository, so two different r2's can exist at a time | 14:52 |
| fenn | but yeah it's annoying | 14:57 |
| fenn | now i'm wondering if they did it that way because it acts as a checksum | 15:04 |
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