2008-08-05.log

--- Day changed Tue Aug 05 2008
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-!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: heybryan server will be down as of 2008-07-12 | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/02:13
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kanzureHey fenn03:14
kanzure http://heybryan.org/bryanmakesburger/100_0045.jpg <-- Cooking is not ... obvious.03:14
kanzurehttp://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/kevin_kelly_on_the_next_5_000_days_of_the_web.html04:51
kanzurehaven't watched it yet04:51
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kanzurehttp://www.meme.com.au/papers/WTW/whatever.html05:44
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-!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: heybryan server will be down as of 2008-07-12 | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/12:05
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kanzurethe internet is like a galaxy, and I'm trying to cherrypick a handful of stars out of billions13:59
kanzurebah13:59
kanzurehm, maybe I should put together a presentation for tomorrow?14:04
nshwhat's tommorow?14:09
kanzurebiobarcamp14:11
kanzurehah14:16
kanzurehttp://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/InBCT_May_2004.html14:16
kanzure"Google search query generator":14:16
kanzure"Google Search Query Generator         Textual descriptions (query strings) provided to Semantic Search Assistant are processed using WordNet ontologies that capture word meanings and relations between keywords and then converted into series of Google-queries taking into account keyword semantics and using advanced search features provided by Google; generated should return better results than if keywords are used dir14:16
kanzurethose bastards14:16
kanzure'Semantic Search Assistant' (SSA)14:16
nshwordnet is a joke14:18
nshlike the best jokes, a lot of people don't get it and take it seriously14:18
kanzurehttp://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/UBIWARE_details.htm14:20
* kanzure wonders how far nsh would have to travel to steal their codebase14:22
kanzureerm14:22
kanzurenevermind14:22
* nsh smiles14:22
nshthis looks pretty interesting14:23
kanzurethe semantic search facilitator or biobarcamp?14:34
nshUBIWARE14:38
nshbiobarcamp also looks cool14:40
kanzurensh: did I mention I'm getting to work with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson ?14:41
ybiti hadn't heard14:41
nshshit, really?14:42
ybit*me b-day was yesterday so we've been having festivities all week*14:42
nshhappy birthday ybit14:42
ybitty ty14:42
nshTed Nelson is my kinda guy14:42
ybitwhat are you two working on kanzure?14:42
ybitis this at the siai?14:42
kanzureybit: no14:43
kanzurethough I did meet Eli two days ago, but anyway14:43
kanzureybit: We're working on a generic "hypermedia system" using zigzag. 14:43
kanzureso it's actually something that can be implemented, not one of his pipe dreams (sadly)14:43
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kanzure"This new tool offers a Google Maps-like view of integrative genomic15:44
kanzuredata," said Jill Mesirov,15:44
kanzurehttp://www.broad.mit.edu/igv/15:44
kanzuremeh, not really apparently15:45
nshhrm15:49
kanzurehurray!15:51
kanzureI've been cited in a paper15:51
kanzureI feel so special15:51
* nsh smiles15:52
nshwhich?15:52
kanzurehttp://www.springerlink.com/content/838234qr720218w8/fulltext.pdf16:00
kanzure(it's open access)16:00
-!- You're now known as fenn16:00
kanzurehrm16:12
fennwhere are you cited in that paper?16:15
fennoh i see it now.. for some reason search for 'biohack' didnt show it16:18
fenni wonder what they're spending $39 billion on for bio"bio-devense"16:28
fennany bets on how long til we have a 9/11-style power grab with synbio?16:41
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kanzurepower grab?16:58
* nsh wonders too16:58
fennmassive irrational restrictive laws for the purpose of profit and domination16:59
fennyou know, more of the usual16:59
kanzurehm16:59
nshoh16:59
nshbound to happen17:00
nshwell17:00
nshhmmm17:00
nshcomputers seemed to escape it17:00
kanzure:)17:00
nshbut they don't present such a risk-opportunity17:00
nsh(and once they began to [filesharing], the genie was out of the bottle)17:00
kanzureGene sharing: don't17:04
kanzureoh wait, sex17:04
kanzurehm17:04
fennconjugation17:08
fennthough 'massive irrational restrictive laws' certainly applies to sex17:09
kanzurewhy hasn't anybody been stupid enough yet to outlaw bacteria?17:10
fennit would put the doctors out of work17:11
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kanzurewe need a keyboard that is also a mouse17:50
kanzurei.e., move the keyboard = move the mouse17:51
kanzureno need to move fingers off of the keys17:51
nsheye tracking would be simpler17:52
kanzureno it wouldn't17:53
nshmice work because the brain can easily map the proprioceptive feedback of moving the hand to the movement of the cursor17:53
kanzureyou ever inadvertedly eye breasts?17:53
nshobviously it'd be connected to a manual action too17:53
nshpressure with the palm engages eye tracking17:54
nshor whatever17:54
kanzureah, okay17:54
kanzurethat might be worth it.17:54
fenna one handed keyboard could gyro/accelerometers built in17:55
fennno reason not to do both really.. i hate how X limits you to one cursor17:55
kanzureI haven't figured out how to make a one-handed keyboard17:55
nshmmm17:55
fenni'm thinking something that looks sorta like a squished tothpaste tube with buttons/capacitive sensors all over it17:56
kanzuremotorcycle bar17:56
kanzurehandbar thing17:56
kanzurehm, no17:56
kanzureI have images of these things somewhere17:56
kanzurerabid archiving of alternative hand-to-computer interfaces17:56
fennchording keyboard development is at an all time low17:57
kanzurehm17:57
fenn"Peer to peer theory is part of those movements that think such17:57
fennautonomy-in-cooperation is possible as a higher potential of human17:57
fennkind, and therefore opposed to those who embrace the independent17:57
fennlogics of the machine"17:57
kanzureyeah?17:58
fenndo you think he really means that cooperation and AI are opposed?17:58
kanzureheh17:58
kanzuresomewhat17:58
kanzurebut I don't think he means "we can cooperate to not build UFAI"17:58
kanzurerather I think he means "you are all jerks and should remember your contextualization"17:59
fennactually i was sorta wondering why you sent a 20 page bio of eugene leitl to all these people?18:00
kanzuretwobits.net looked like an interesting book that has some relevance to those people18:00
kanzurethe overall book at least18:00
kanzurethere's some context here of course18:00
kanzurethe freedomofscience.org people (Jonathan J or something) were distancing themselves from the transhuman tech stuff18:01
kanzuresame with Michel Bauwens and so on18:01
kanzureand since evidently all of the definitions completely failed, I figured I'd send it off to them at once18:01
kanzurejust so that they know that they are generally on the same playing field in my opinion18:01
kanzurekinda doing the same damn things ...18:01
fennwhat definitions?18:01
kanzurewell, like Wikipedia's portrayol of transhumanism18:01
kanzureand WTA's and such18:01
kanzureall that bullshit.18:01
fennhmm18:02
fennok the leitl bio makes more sense now18:02
kanzurehurray18:02
nshwtf is this "independent logics of the machine"18:02
kanzurensh: unexamined logics18:02
kanzureso-called "logics" of course18:02
nshthat's some weapons-grade balls18:02
nshthere was the paste from, ybit?18:03
nsh*fenn18:03
kanzureemail18:03
kanzuresince hplusroadmap is dead for the time being18:03
* kanzure is still hunting for relayhosts18:03
fennnsh: some more context: "are we fated to totally lose control of our socio-technical systems or not"18:03
kanzureanswer: yes18:05
kanzure"our" => ambiguous18:05
fennbauwens seems to be ignoring the value of communications technology and the social structures it enables.. oddly enough18:05
fennmaybe that's just my observer bias18:05
kanzurewhat, like fiber optics?18:06
fennyes :)18:06
kanzuremethinks he might maybe know about ronja18:06
fenni wouldnt be having this conversation if not for fiber optics18:06
kanzureor at least http://solarnetone.org/ now that I mentioned it to him18:06
fennanother gnuveau.net alias18:07
kanzureuh, well http://sleekfreak.ath.cx/18:07
kanzureright18:07
kanzure'Gnuveau proudly announces SolarNetOne, a solar powered multi-user Linux Terminal Server network, with integrated long range wireless access point, analog telephone adapter, proximity based security system, and many other features.Please click the image below for more information on the green computing solution SolarNetOne.'18:07
fennwith annoying time-delay redirects :\18:07
nshsweet18:07
kanzure#solarnet-dev was kinda sorta idle18:08
kanzureshogunx was showing up in here for .. a while18:08
kanzurebut he's mainly in #openmosix18:08
kanzure#solarnet-dev on gnuveau.net's irc server18:08
fennok well, imagine your ISP only had a wireless link to the rest of the net18:10
kanzurebleh18:10
fennif done right it might not be bad at al18:10
fennbut fiber is many orders of magnitude more efficient18:11
kanzureme hasn't figured out how to make good fiber optics yet18:11
fenn== costs less, as much as you think money doesn't exist18:11
* kanzure goes back to looking up autogoogler18:14
kanzurehm, but the presentation ..18:14
kanzurehrm18:14
kanzure"Search Assistant uses ontologically (WordNet) defined knowledge about words and embedded support of advanced Google-search query features in order to construct more efficient queries from formal textual description of searched information. 18:18
kanzureSemantic Search Assistant hides from users the complexity of query language of concrete search engine and performs routine actions that most of users do in order to achieve better performance and get more relevant results."18:18
kanzuredelicious18:18
kanzurehttp://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/InBCT_May_2004.html18:22
kanzure' In spite of that, English language has smaller number of verbs than nouns (as counted in LINK TO MILLER'S WORK, Collins English Dictionary lists 43,636 different nouns and 14,190 different verbs.'18:24
kanzureheh18:24
kanzure"It is obvious that COME BACK AND DO THE ACTUAL WORK HERE shows that there's a number of important ..."18:24
fennits not like anyone ever looks at the footnotes anywya18:34
fenni wish wordnet would use comp sci terminology instead of linguistics terminology18:37
kanzureSteve's been trying to get me to use state vector machines for autogoogler18:40
kanzure'Default values of R can be de_ned by Sense Processor (by methods described in previous section) and can be manually customized by user. Through graphical interface user can see the list of all senses for each word from the search query and chose relevances using sliders.'18:42
kanzure(R is a measure of relevance or something)18:42
kanzurebut 18:42
kanzuresliders?18:42
kanzurehell, I just want a list of 20 different queries that go off to execute all at once18:42
kanzurenot so much sliding but ... hm.18:42
* kanzure listens to http://heybryan.org/music2/radio/Animeacademyradio.m3u18:43
fenncombinatorial explosion18:44
kanzure'If the word was not found in WordNet database, value of relevance R and value of N for it are automatically initialized as 1. So the total quality will have maximum possible value equal to 1. This choice can be explained in such way: if WordNet doesn't contain some word from user query, it can be some specific term or expression, and it must be definitely included as is into new query.'18:44
fenngoogle will get mad if you send 10^18 queries18:45
kanzuremeh18:45
kanzureI'm not going to use Google18:45
kanzureI don't have their SOAP stuff18:45
kanzurebut Yahoo! has been friendly with me :)18:45
fennblasphemy!18:45
kanzurenot my fault Google shut off their dev access18:45
kanzurewouldn't have had to go to yahoo were it not for that18:45
kanzure'If there is only one word in search query, first 10 words from sorted array of Q's may be placed in new query.'18:46
kanzureerm18:46
fennthere ought to be some kind of distributed search algorithm18:46
kanzurethis doesn't explain the ways of manipulating the string though18:46
kanzurejust an array of a relevance gradient is stupid18:46
kanzuredistributed search algo18:46
kanzuregeeze, like wikia search18:46
kanzureand gnucrawler or whatever18:46
kanzureoh wait, Jimbo fucked that one up18:46
fennum, not wikia? i just mean something that runs on each web server that will dig through its own files (saving bandwidth)18:47
kanzurewikia search was built off of some distributed p2p crawler code sort of18:47
kanzureGoogle Sites has that .xml format for internal digging to be made public18:47
fennnot a crawler at all, i mean a server side search18:47
kanzurebut meh18:47
fennwhen i ask you a question i dont tell you to tell me everything you know and then figure out the answer myself18:48
kanzurek18:48
nshi don't think there was much there to fuck up at any point18:49
fenntrain of thought was like this: googl and yahoo have a natural monopoly because we can't have every computer crawling every other computer18:49
nshgoogle and yahoo have a natural monopoly because they are not required by law to share their data18:49
nshwhich will never happen :-/18:49
fennit's almost like people can't even imagine cooperating18:50
fennthere's no way every computer on the net is ever going to be a perfect mirror of every other computer18:51
nsh"it's the economy, stupid"18:51
fennwhat i'm talking about is like turning google inside out18:53
nshpls elaborate18:53
fenninstead of having a crawler that downloads data from remote servers and then performs algorithms on that data, the crawler would upload algorithms to other servers which would then run them on their data18:53
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fennof course now you have all of the search queries running on all of the computers18:54
fennbut i'm sure there's some way around that18:55
fenni just havent thought of it18:55
kanzurebelly of the beast18:56
fennyou could do something like sorting by hash keys18:57
fennwith a distributed hash table18:57
fennit could work18:57
kanzurethe semantic search facilitator has its full documentation on the page there18:57
kanzurehrm18:57
kanzurewith a few source files mentioned but no links18:57
fennis it open source?18:59
kanzure'[Paper] Context-Sensitive Multidimensional Resource Visualization'18:59
kanzureit's using GPLed tools methinks18:59
kanzureso it must be?18:59
kanzureodd how few search results there are for SSA19:02
kanzure*SSF19:03
kanzurehttp://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/vagan/ head of metaintelligence lab has an @yahoo address19:03
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kanzuregahh19:16
kanzureprototype written in java19:16
kanzureso it looks like they were just building queries based off of an arbitrary measure of relevance according to WordNet, getting user feedback, and then running those queries19:27
kanzuretook them five months to do *that* ?19:27
kanzurewtf19:27
kanzuremaybe I just have a disorder where everything seems simpler than it actually is19:29
fennme too19:29
kanzurewhat gets me is the rules for assembling the new queries19:32
kanzureit can't just be an array of strings19:32
kanzurebut an array of some linked lists of terms or something19:32
kanzureor at least an array of recipes for the generation of the new queries or something like this19:32
kanzureas you add each term there becomes an increasingly large number of different manipulations to do to the overall query, no?19:32
kanzureso it looks like just an extend + recursion problem in that regard19:33
kanzurei.e., for a query of length N recurse through all of the terms and do the manipulations19:33
fennseems they are trying to come up with the 'perfect' search query, when there's no such thing19:35
kanzurecorrect19:35
kanzurejust mutations that you can do to the query / with the query19:36
kanzureTom McCabe, one of the guys living here (he's on acceleratingfuture.com/tom/ next to /michael/ (who also happens to be here), when asked if he had any original statements of his own to blurt out, answered, "I get everything from the internet. How could it be any different?"19:37
kanzurebah19:37
kanzure*here))19:37
fennhm, that's too bad19:37
kanzure?19:37
kanzure'brain as a mutation engine' == too bad?19:38
fenneveryone should come up with at least one new thing19:38
kanzureheh19:38
kanzureit's funny how we're all severely autistic19:38
kanzureexcept Michael and the java programmer19:38
kanzurewell, by 'severe' I mean19:39
kanzureto the extent that it's obvious we're pacing around in circles and ridiculous i.e. with http://heybryan.org/bryanmakesburger/19:39
fennyou said 'living here' i'm curious what the meatspace arrangement is like19:39
fennis there a house? a hotel?19:39
kanzurerenting a house yeah19:40
kanzureso here's how it actually works19:40
kanzureAnna, the facilitator who grabbed me from Austin, has been living with Steve since they were in high school or something19:40
kanzureAnna takes care of Steve and makes sure he eats and i.e., doesn't die19:40
kanzure*since after they were in high school19:41
kanzureso they have a very small amount of cash that's running out a week after I leave19:41
fennheh nice brain pod19:41
kanzure?19:41
fennyour burger.. n/m19:42
kanzureoh, right :)19:42
biopunk"this is your brain on drugs"19:42
kanzureyeah, none of us really know how to cook19:42
kanzureso it's awkward but whatever19:42
kanzure"meh, just nuke it for a while"19:42
* fenn suggests using the internet19:43
biopunkdone that19:43
kanzureI was thinking of doing something like spotting Steve for a while19:43
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kanzureuntil I realized I'm probably going down his same path anyway19:43
fenn"Note that video games cannot be used to transmit technical knowledge" <- bullshit19:43
kanzurewhere?19:44
* kanzure got off topic19:44
fennhttp://www.acceleratingfuture.com/tom/19:44
kanzureheh, we all play Endgame fairly regularly :p19:45
fennwell, its not my fault e:s is lacking in the technical knowledge department19:46
fenni think you'd need something like skdb to make it realistic though19:46
fenni.e. not like sid meyer's civilization game19:47
kanzuretech trees in RTSes are of course relevant19:47
kanzureif they actually were based off of realstuff19:47
kanzure(the trees)19:47
fenneric hunting was obsessed with making a realistic space colonization game19:48
fennas a means to further the meme19:48
fenn(and possibly attract funding)19:48
kanzurewait, what?19:48
biopunkuh oh19:48
kanzurehttp://www.accelerationwatch.com/biotech.html  'Performance Limitations on Natural and Engineered Biological Systems'19:48
fennwait what what?19:49
kanzurethe game?19:49
kanzureeric had a game?19:49
fennlet me dig up some relevant emails19:49
kanzure' "Engineering RNA Logic with Synthetic Splicing Ribozymes" '19:53
fennah here we go, a typical novel-length exposition: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/luf-team/message/831319:54
kanzureI don't know how Eric keeps beating the shit out of my lengthy messages19:55
fennit's really something isnt it19:55
fenni guess he got bummed out about it after trying to contact several video game publishers19:56
kanzurewrong way to go about it19:57
* kanzure is a homebrew indie video game programmer19:57
fennmore about it here http://tmp2.wikia.com/wiki/M3_Game_Project19:57
kanzurehm, I need to get back to the query generator20:00
kanzureljfkladfjlkasfj;kadsfjkas20:00
kanzureheh20:07
kanzureimport ontology from dna mutation20:07
kanzureinsertion, deletion, frameshift, and that other thingy20:07
kanzureand then I'll just manually select from a 'tag cloud' of the sort in typespeed20:08
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kanzurestatic-151-201-29-168.pitbpa.east.verizon.net.20:28
kanzureany of us?20:28
kanzurethe neurocommons-rdf guys are wondering20:28
kanzurehttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8162700386327580205&ei=SfeYSOXkGYGYqQOJ6NjLDA&q=pinky+%26+the+brain&vt=lf21:11
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kanzureshit21:23
kanzurehttp://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Comparison_of_Neural_Network_Simulators21:23
kanzurecrap21:29
kanzurethere's a deb file21:29
kanzurehttp://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Main_Page21:29
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kanzurecrap, it's O'Reilly21:33
* kanzure knows why Superkuh had an interest in him21:33
kanzurehttp://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Screenshots21:37
kanzurehttp://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Build_From_Package_Ubuntu21:40
kanzurewhere do these projects come from?21:41
fenn"What we've seen of these modifications so far is that they always introduce a range of unanticipated side effects (mice with better memories have pain intolerance and social problems, for example)"22:19
fennhe forgot to mention they always try to take over the world22:19
-!- willPow3r [i=will@174.sub-75-217-126.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]22:20
fennheh pinky shoulda frozen solid when he stuck his tongue on that ice-922:22

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