| --- Day changed Mon Aug 11 2008 | ||
| -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-248-71-36.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:24 | |
| -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 20:24 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzur1 [] [Mon Aug 11 14:37:25 2008] | 20:24 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 20:24 | |
| [ bkero ] [ fenn ] [ jm|earth] [ kanzure_] [ Overand] [ wrldpc] | 20:24 | |
| [ elias`] [ freer] [ kanzure ] [ nsh ] [ procto ] [ ybit ] | 20:24 | |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 12 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal] | 20:24 | |
| -!- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp | 20:24 | |
| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 20:24 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 23 secs | 20:25 | |
| fenn | oblivierra seems like a half-cooked "millenial project" (LUF) | 21:06 |
|---|---|---|
| bkero | Does it even have a domain anymore? | 21:07 |
| fenn | uh, i mean the atacama desert colony, not the mmorpg | 21:08 |
| bkero | I see. | 21:09 |
| fenn | i'm reading logs from a couple days ago | 21:10 |
| bkero | Google fails me. | 21:10 |
| fenn | http://heybryan.org/chats/chats/agaboogamonger_Mar5th02005.html | 21:10 |
| fenn | probably not all that interesting | 21:10 |
| fenn | one problem with these self-sufficiency projects is they always consider the 'unit' to be geographically located, but the real world provides different environments that are conducive to different activities | 21:11 |
| fenn | and so humanity has ended up with trade | 21:12 |
| kanzure | plastic from silicon or something silly like that | 21:12 |
| kanzure | actually it was from algae IIRC | 21:12 |
| fenn | nothing wrong with that, but you have to consider the reasons behind it | 21:12 |
| fenn | is it worth trying to make your own plastics? | 21:13 |
| fenn | what is the cost in freedom vs the cost in labor | 21:13 |
| bkero | Depends on what your goal of civilization is | 21:13 |
| fenn | (freedom from mail order catalogs and UPS) | 21:13 |
| bkero | If you're content with an agrarian society I'm sure it's not too difficult if you chose the right location. | 21:13 |
| fenn | right now the US is finally taking a look at this sort of question re: oil | 21:14 |
| bkero | The extreme left responds to "We're fucked" reports. Everyone else tends to ignore them. | 21:15 |
| bkero | Until it starts to very quickly change the country to third world status. ;) | 21:16 |
| fenn | even george W bush says the US needs to break its dependence from foriegn oil, so i wouldnt say it's the extreme left | 21:16 |
| bkero | Then everyone else tries to find some other reason for it happening, because "We told you so" is too embarrasing. | 21:16 |
| * kanzure glances at the screen to his immediate left ... still scrolling with papers. | 21:17 | |
| kanzure | :)) | 21:17 |
| bkero | "We have a problem with our dependency on foreign oil. Clearly the problem isn't with our land yachts and lack of foresight retarding environmental regulation and > 6000lb vehicle 80% tax treaks. It has to do with everyone else in the world using more, not us. This problem has not existed until now, everyone else was just waving flag for the wrong culprit." | 21:19 |
| kanzure | if I was more energetic at the moment I'd go into a spiell about recursive publics and fully surveying available resources before exponentially cancering yourself | 21:20 |
| * bkero is using no oil besides what it takes for my good to get to the grocery store | 21:21 | |
| kanzure | doesn't matter ... dependency loops. | 21:21 |
| fenn | if i could, i would.. that's why i'm joining the raelians to get the first shot at cloning! :) </sarcasm> | 21:21 |
| bkero | Yup | 21:21 |
| kanzure | dependency-loops, not a statement that they do loop (of course they do, but no) | 21:21 |
| kanzure | we've been able to clone for a while though | 21:22 |
| kanzure | so why join them? | 21:22 |
| fenn | who's we? | 21:22 |
| * bkero bicycles and drives an electric car. :) | 21:22 | |
| fenn | afaict even the raelians havent cloned anyone | 21:22 |
| kanzure | we = everybody but me, in a lab | 21:22 |
| kanzure | ah, well, people | 21:22 |
| kanzure | ok | 21:22 |
| kanzure | I'm assuming the SCNT diff between hu/sheep/ape is minimal | 21:23 |
| kanzure | the technique has to be roughly the same | 21:23 |
| kanzure | except perhaps chemical prep work | 21:23 |
| fenn | has anyone succeeded in cloning sheep/ape that isnt all old and fucked up? | 21:23 |
| kanzure | http://home.cfl.rr.com/chaosdriven/references.html | 21:24 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:24 |
| kanzure | mice? | 21:24 |
| bkero | Least fucked up big cloned thing I've seen was probably a frog back in the 70s. | 21:24 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/ | 21:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/RefSalSCNT.zip | 21:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/CRi%20SCNT%20Full%20Protocol%20Final.pdf | 21:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/Enucleation%20Rhesus%20Monkey%20MPEG4v2.avi | 21:25 |
| kanzure | etc. | 21:25 |
| fenn | but.. are they viable? | 21:25 |
| fenn | dolly was as "old" as the original sheep | 21:25 |
| kanzure | check out the zip file | 21:25 |
| kanzure | lots of awesome references with links to pubmedcentral | 21:26 |
| kanzure | the dolly problem was largely because of tolemerase | 21:26 |
| kanzure | 'Cloned creatures are cloned from diploid cells (2n) and when they divide (those diploid cells) they produce an organism exactly like the cells that they came from. In order to produce Dolly the sheep, it took over 4000 individual nuclear replacements of the cell - | 21:27 |
| kanzure | to get them all to divide the same. Insert references to the Alien movies. Don't see Alien versus Predator - horrible. The problem with cloning is that it is a very inexact science. In order to get one good Dolly sheep it takes many thousands of attempts.' | 21:27 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/school/Biology/notes/output.html | 21:27 |
| kanzure | 'Cholesterol-based hormones (steroid hormones) are rapidly absorbed in muscle cells and many other cells. The positive effect is that they turn on genes for proteins to be built, but the problem is that it wears out the division mechanisms like with Dolly that caused increased aging rate.' | 21:27 |
| fenn | sometimes you really do behave like a HMM robot | 21:28 |
| kanzure | Dolly related: | 21:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.mblwhoilibrary.org/services/lecture_series/campbell/bibliography.html | 21:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/03Apr/RL31211.pdf | 21:29 |
| kanzure | Who to blame for Dolly: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/biosciences/anphy/lookup/lookup_role.php?id=NjA0MjI0&page_var=publications&pubs=all&unit_id= | 21:29 |
| kanzure | (his email address and such) | 21:29 |
| kanzure | Wasn't there that dog cloning organization from the early 90s? | 21:29 |
| kanzure | Some rich guy's dog was going to die, so he hired a team of 10 men to clone the bitch. | 21:30 |
| kanzure | quite literally. | 21:30 |
| bkero | haha | 21:30 |
| bkero | There are a lot of businesses out there that preserve dogs DNA to be cloned when it's economically viable. | 21:30 |
| fenn | can i get my dog's brain frozen? | 21:30 |
| kanzure | there was an article on this in the toolkit | 21:31 |
| bkero | It's not the freezing that kills the cells, it's the thawing out :P | 21:31 |
| kanzure | oh, wait | 21:31 |
| kanzure | no | 21:31 |
| fenn | uh, no it's the freezing | 21:31 |
| kanzure | omg omg omg | 21:31 |
| bkero | o? | 21:31 |
| fenn | it's the crystals, man! | 21:31 |
| fenn | oooo | 21:31 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/cache-index.txt | 21:31 |
| kanzure | Bioelectric discharges of isolated cat brain after revival from seven years of frozen storage.pdf | 21:31 |
| kanzure | ok, found it | 21:31 |
| * kanzure feels better. | 21:31 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Bioelectric%20discharges%20of%20isolated%20cat%20brain%20after%20revival%20from%20years%20of%20frozen%20storage.pdf | 21:33 |
| bkero | SCIENCE! | 21:33 |
| kanzure | :) | 21:33 |
| kanzure | hm, pdx.edu | 21:34 |
| kanzure | that's where nchaimov is | 21:34 |
| kanzure | why isn't he in here? | 21:34 |
| kanzure | oh, heh. he's the one who retrieved the file for me. :) | 21:34 |
| * bkero is in portland too | 21:35 | |
| * kanzure is more worried about the artificial wombs .. cloning seems ok so far, but these damn tanks seem to mutate the cargo | 21:39 | |
| bkero | Why not just use real wombs? | 21:40 |
| bkero | Seems optimal for nutrient delivery. :P | 21:40 |
| kanzure | bkero: Suppose you were using a von Neumann probe and flying across the galaxy. | 21:40 |
| kanzure | Assume cryonics isn't working out too well (oops) | 21:40 |
| kanzure | you'd have to have live supplies of women and their "real" wombs | 21:40 |
| fenn | artificial womb needs an artificial heart, glandular system, kidneys, etc etc | 21:41 |
| kanzure | as if the fact that it's attached to women makes them any more real, except in that we currently have them I suppose | 21:41 |
| kanzure | artificial womb is just a tank sort of | 21:41 |
| kanzure | let me get the Kuwabara refs | 21:41 |
| kanzure | close but not it: http://www.uni.edu/~maclino/cl/skinner_baby_in_a_box.pdf | 21:41 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/Ectogenesis-Artificial-Technology-Reproduction-Inquiry/dp/9042020814 | 21:41 |
| fenn | they dont have to be 'real' kidneys, just something that performs the same function. but kidneys seem like an efficient use of space and energy to me | 21:41 |
| bkero | fenn: You merely need to produce the outputs of those. :P | 21:41 |
| kanzure | http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13418180.400-japanese-pioneers-raise-kid-in-rubber-womb-.html | 21:42 |
| kanzure | there we go | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/Ectogenesis-Artificial-Technology-Reproduction-Inquiry/dp/9042020814 | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.babytron.com/ | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.geocities.com/placenta_rb/Biblio.html | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/22/neggs122.xml | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.aec.at/festival2000/texte/nobuya_unno_e.htm | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2005/Faking-Babies-Reproduction19may05.htm | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.eshre.com/CM.NET.WebUI/CM.NET.webUI.SCPR/SCPRfunctiondetail.aspx?confID=05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000029&sesID=05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000002074&absID=07000000-0000-0000-0000-000000014605 | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19526146.200&feedId=online-news_rss20 | 21:42 |
| kanzure | for bonus points, the second one is the raelians :) | 21:42 |
| kanzure | (babytron) | 21:42 |
| kanzure | More: http://www.nrlc.org/Killing_Embryos/ArtificialWombs.html | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1011.htm | 21:42 |
| fenn | i find it curious that the only people publically advocating human cloning are UFO kooks | 21:43 |
| fenn | why is this a taboo? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:43 |
| bkero | Can't we just have organ sacs for the purpose of feeding the fetus? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | bkero: What? | 21:43 |
| bkero | Autonomous sacs of organs for an artificial womb. :P | 21:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: maybe it's because nobody has actually seriously proposed some projects or something ... something nonprofit would be needed methinks | 21:44 |
| kanzure | bkero: Maybe. There's the tissue engineers that we could go abduct and have them make those 'sacs' you're talking about. | 21:44 |
| bkero | fenn: It's taboo because it raises all sorts of ethical questions by people who don't understand science, but question what kind of rights it should have, and if it has a 'soul'. | 21:45 |
| kanzure | I've always wanted to try 'exploded organism emulation' via having mostly biological components except separated by long distances with networking hardware of some sort or another in between, just so that it could all be modular and stuff. ;-) | 21:45 |
| kanzure | why are 'rights' even a question ? | 21:45 |
| kanzure | is that the right question to be asking? | 21:45 |
| fenn | why would DNA makeup have anything to do with whether it has a soul? | 21:45 |
| bkero | Could I clone myself for a housemaid? | 21:45 |
| kanzure | I dunno, could you ? | 21:45 |
| fenn | your clone would grow up just like any other baby | 21:45 |
| kanzure | wrong question ;-) | 21:45 |
| fenn | you can name your kid 'ben' but that doesnt make him the same as you | 21:46 |
| kanzure | hint of angst there ? | 21:46 |
| bkero | True, but could you breed 'subhumans' with less rights? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | there's a scale of rights ? | 21:46 |
| bkero | There used to be. | 21:46 |
| bkero | And there still is in a portion of the world. | 21:46 |
| kanzure | And how do you map genome to this scale ? | 21:47 |
| fenn | they already did that in america in the 1800's | 21:47 |
| fenn | no cloning needed | 21:47 |
| kanzure | I don't know what 'subhuman' means :-/ | 21:47 |
| bkero | Subhuman is more of a social distinction than a biological one. | 21:47 |
| bkero | See: Eunechs | 21:48 |
| fenn | what do you call a human with less performance, ie the opposite of transhuman | 21:48 |
| kanzure | "Control, an illusion, and order our comforting lie; Through chaos, from chaos, into chaos we fly." | 21:48 |
| kanzure | human with less performance | 21:48 |
| kanzure | but you see, that's kind of assuming there's a performance thingy | 21:48 |
| kanzure | erm | 21:48 |
| bkero | Could it be a human with less value? | 21:48 |
| kanzure | "better human" and "worse human" just doesn't make sense to me. It's the same reason why GPA doesn't make sense. | 21:48 |
| kanzure | value to *who*? | 21:49 |
| kanzure | It's context-dependent, remember. | 21:49 |
| kanzure | *you're* the one making the value judgment | 21:49 |
| kanzure | (or somebody else yelling at you) | 21:49 |
| fenn | quality of subjective experience? | 21:49 |
| kanzure | ? | 21:49 |
| fenn | say i'm blind and deaf and numb and hate my life, obviously my subjective experience is of a lesser quality | 21:49 |
| fenn | OR IS IT! | 21:49 |
| kanzure | I don't understand. | 21:50 |
| kanzure | are you asking me to tell you that I'd kill you or something ? | 21:50 |
| fenn | i'm slightly undecided, but i think it's OK to argue that lesser subjective experience means that your life is inherently worth less | 21:50 |
| bkero | kanzure: If he were that disfunctional, he would be of little value to society, however his quality as a human could be great. | 21:50 |
| fenn | i dont mean value as in what sort of contributions i can make | 21:51 |
| kanzure | this problem space is confusing and sucks | 21:51 |
| * kanzure ignores it. | 21:51 | |
| fenn | because eventually we will all be obsoleted by AI | 21:51 |
| bkero | Heh | 21:51 |
| bkero | As soon as singularity bootstraps itself. | 21:51 |
| bkero | I'm waiting it any day now. | 21:51 |
| * kanzure points out that we're probably the bootstrappers sort of | 21:51 | |
| kanzure | if you looked at exp.html for instance.. it's one of the lazy projects we've been kicking around for a few months | 21:52 |
| fenn | kanzure: i got in an argument with an economist once | 21:52 |
| kanzure | how'd you survive? | 21:52 |
| fenn | er, something like that | 21:52 |
| fenn | not a real economist, just someone who thought he was one | 21:52 |
| fenn | anyway | 21:53 |
| fenn | the argument was about how much your life is worth | 21:53 |
| fenn | he said that you could determine what monetary value the person placed on their life by measuring risks and the amount of money put into reducing those risks | 21:53 |
| bkero | You know you're right that my eyes sort of glazed over when reading that | 21:54 |
| bkero | Er, I'm not entirely sure that's accurate. | 21:54 |
| bkero | That's assuming risk reduction is the primary goal | 21:54 |
| fenn | say you are a thug, with 50% chance of getting killed tomorrow | 21:54 |
| * kanzure hates the concept of 'risk' | 21:55 | |
| kanzure | procto knows :) | 21:55 |
| fenn | you could buy a gun for $100 that would reduce your risk of dying by 50% | 21:55 |
| kanzure | and probability | 21:55 |
| fenn | you could buy another gun for $1000 that would reduce your risk by 99% | 21:56 |
| fenn | so, assuming you have $1000 and dont buy the fancy gun, you can estimate the value you put on your life at somewhere between $50 and $1000 right? | 21:56 |
| fenn | blah | 21:57 |
| bkero | That's not even fallacious, that's just dumb. | 21:57 |
| fenn | it's dumb because people have an invincibility bias, they dont believe they can die | 21:58 |
| bkero | fenn: I don't know about you, but I'm not going to die. | 21:58 |
| fenn | well, i'm not dead yet am i? | 21:58 |
| bkero | But do you think you will? | 21:58 |
| fenn | i dont know, i'm death-agnostic | 21:58 |
| bkero | http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html | 21:59 |
| fenn | yeah yeahh your're preaching to the choir | 21:59 |
| bkero | :P | 21:59 |
| fenn | anyway the whole point of this was that weiwe should value human life insttrinissically | 21:59 |
| fenn | intrinsically* | 22:00 |
| fenn | but then saying "human life" is sort of arbitrary, so i've generalized it to subjective experience | 22:01 |
| fenn | for all the fuzzy bunnies and whales and dolphins and robots | 22:01 |
| bkero | Although I have to say that in an appropriately welfared society, we wouldn't have to put any surmountable amount of money into life extension. | 22:01 |
| fenn | "I don't worry about the ethical problems. I just want to rescue the fetus where it is impossible to be rescued by present treatment" | 22:05 |
| fenn | sad state of affairs | 22:05 |
| fenn | hey kanzure we could lobby conservative anti-abortionists to develop artificial wombs, the rationale being that unwilling mothers wouldnt have to kill their fetuses | 22:06 |
| bkero | Is the state going to pick up the bill for them? :P | 22:07 |
| kanzure | not bad | 22:08 |
| fenn | no, the rich religious nutjobs would | 22:08 |
| * kanzure recently met Aubrey in person :) | 22:08 | |
| bkero | You can't get rich religious nutjobs to pay for anything besides their 44,000 sqft creationist museum in kansas. | 22:08 |
| fenn | bkero: then they could see the reality of the cost of bearing a child, and the guilt would be on them for not contributing, see? | 22:09 |
| bkero | Guilting rich republicans, I like it. | 22:09 |
| fenn | "you murderer, sending this innocent fetus to its death!" | 22:09 |
| bkero | Of course they're simply going to claim 'its not a child' | 22:09 |
| fenn | now if only i could figure out how to apply this to space development | 22:09 |
| fenn | but they can't claim it's not a child | 22:09 |
| * bkero met burt rutan 3 years ago. :) | 22:10 | |
| bkero | fenn: They could claim it's not human because it lacks a soul(somehow) | 22:10 |
| kanzure | who's burt? | 22:10 |
| kanzure | the mothers would argue otherwise | 22:10 |
| fenn | bkero: its not a cloned fetus, just a regular aborted (or would-be aborted) fetus | 22:10 |
| bkero | He designs ultralight aircraft, and spaceshipone | 22:10 |
| fenn | raised in an artificial womb | 22:10 |
| kanzure | bkero: ultralight, like scramjets? http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Scramjets | 22:11 |
| fenn | not ultralights, homebuilt small airplanes | 22:11 |
| fenn | you need a pilot's license of some sort to fly the *EZ | 22:11 |
| bkero | fenn: I get that, but they could claim that it has neither a nurturing mother or father, it's a humunculous | 22:11 |
| fenn | wtf the whole point of pro-life is that the fetus is worth saving | 22:11 |
| fenn | the mother wants to kill it | 22:12 |
| bkero | My ex girlfriends father has an ultralight in his garage. I helped him cut the styrofoam, vacuum bag it, and assemble it. | 22:12 |
| bkero | We built one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-EZ | 22:13 |
| fenn | cool, that's my favorite homebuilt design i think | 22:14 |
| bkero | Hehe, it's what john denver died in | 22:14 |
| bkero | Burt Rutan basically wrote ALL the books on experimental aircraft. | 22:14 |
| fenn | yeah i read the report, it was stupid | 22:14 |
| bkero | I'm a member of 2 EAAs. The Electric Auto Association, and the Experimental Aircraft Association | 22:14 |
| kanzure | bkero: I'll be over in 10 hours | 22:17 |
| bkero | The aerodynamics of the Long-EZ are such that it's the same as pushing a 2sqft block through the air | 22:17 |
| * kanzure wants to see. | 22:17 | |
| bkero | haha | 22:17 |
| bkero | I don't actually own the plane. I'm way too fucking poor. I'm still getting a pilots license. | 22:18 |
| fenn | i have a hard time understanding why planes cost so much | 22:18 |
| fenn | they're very simple | 22:18 |
| bkero | Because they're made of composites, which don't have cheap manufacturing processes. | 22:19 |
| bkero | You can roll steel and stamp aluminum | 22:19 |
| fenn | that's not true, cessna's are made of stamped aluminum and are just as expensive | 22:19 |
| bkero | You have to mold styrofoam then lay fiberglass on both sides of that, then epoxy it, then seal it in a bag, and run a vacuum to remove excess epoxy. | 22:19 |
| bkero | Cessnas also demand a price premium, you pay for their product marketing. | 22:20 |
| bkero | They're also not 'experimental'. | 22:20 |
| fenn | experimental or not, airplanes are expensive | 22:20 |
| bkero | Yea, those long-ez's are $35000 :/ | 22:21 |
| bkero | Because they require a substantial bit of engineering? :P | 22:21 |
| bkero | A piece of shit will roll, but a piece of shit won't fly. That's why engineering on planes is infinitely better than cars. | 22:22 |
| fenn | $35k isnt too bad, that's about what someone would pay for a car | 22:22 |
| bkero | Finished in 1985 | 22:22 |
| bkero | Then again, nobody has built substantially better planes since then. :/ | 22:22 |
| bkero | For fuel mileage, the Vari-EZ still holds the record. | 22:22 |
| fenn | but i'm talking to these aero-engineers who make $100k/yr and can't afford to fly | 22:23 |
| bkero | They use fucking air-cooled Beetle engines. | 22:23 |
| bkero | (and get better mileage than the beetle) | 22:23 |
| * fenn ponders a turbo diesel homebuilt | 22:24 | |
| bkero | airplane or car? | 22:24 |
| fenn | airplane | 22:24 |
| fenn | i'm interested in using a turbo diesel as the generator for a serial hybrid car tho | 22:24 |
| bkero | http://www.deltahawkengines.com/journa00.shtml | 22:25 |
| bkero | Already been done | 22:25 |
| fenn | hard to find small high efficiency diesel engines for cheap-ish though | 22:25 |
| bkero | http://www.evxteam.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=25 | 22:25 |
| bkero | Not if you tear them out of old VWs. ;) | 22:25 |
| bkero | Electric motors are up to 98% efficient. Gasoline/diesel motors are up to 26% | 22:26 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 22:26 | |
| fenn | VW engine is too big | 22:26 |
| fenn | big engine == car bullshit | 22:26 |
| fenn | you end up designing the car around the engine | 22:26 |
| bkero | Riding lawn mower? | 22:26 |
| fenn | hmm that "hybrid supercar".. what were they thinking? couldnt afford supercapacitors so they tried to use lead acids instead? | 22:28 |
| bkero | Supercapacitors don't story energy for very long. :/ | 22:28 |
| bkero | They dissapate really fast. | 22:28 |
| fenn | it says their batteries didnt provide enough power | 22:29 |
| bkero | lol | 22:29 |
| procto | kanzure: I don't hate concepts :> though there are concepts that I hate seeing implemented | 22:29 |
| bkero | Lead acid batteries are really good at discharging TONS of amps at once. | 22:29 |
| fenn | but not enough for this supercar, apparently | 22:30 |
| bkero | The only thing that's gotten close is LiFePO3, and that's about 12x as expensive. | 22:30 |
| fenn | what about NiCd? | 22:30 |
| bkero | Nope | 22:30 |
| fenn | seems to me that batteries shouldn't be used for power buffering | 22:30 |
| bkero | NiCads discharge at about 0.75C. That means if it's a 12v 2000mAh battery, it the maximum that it can discharge is 24W | 22:31 |
| bkero | Er, 24 * 0.75 | 22:31 |
| bkero | Batteries are used for power storage, capacitors are used for energy storage. | 22:31 |
| bkero | Capacitors discharge on their own significantly faster though. | 22:32 |
| fenn | uh, express that in SI units please | 22:32 |
| fenn | "Batteries are used for power storage, capacitors are used for energy storage." | 22:32 |
| bkero | Capacitors are great at being charged very fast with a lot of electricity. They can also discharge equally quickly, but they don't store it that well. Think of how you're supposed to wait 5 seconds after you shut your computer off to turn it back on. That's the caps discharging themselves. | 22:33 |
| bkero | Batteries are the exact opposite. | 22:34 |
| fenn | that's a resistor across the capacitor terminals dissipating the energy stored in the capacitor, it's a safety feature | 22:34 |
| fenn | the capacitor doesn't have any internal leakage (not nearly as much as a battery anyway) | 22:34 |
| bkero | But if I go and charge a capacitor to however many farads it's going to hold, and measure the wattage in there after 1 second, it's going to be significantly higher than 1 minute. | 22:35 |
| fenn | not true | 22:35 |
| fenn | and your units are all wrong | 22:36 |
| bkero | Which unit? | 22:36 |
| bkero | (s) | 22:36 |
| fenn | if you charge a 1 farad capacitor to 12V it will stay at 12V for a very long time | 22:36 |
| bkero | But if you put a known load on it, it can sustain the load longer if it was just charged | 22:37 |
| fenn | if it was charged recently you mean? | 22:38 |
| bkero | yes | 22:38 |
| fenn | basically you are arguing that the equivalent parallel resistance of a battery is higher than a capacitor | 22:38 |
| fenn | why oh why is this data so hard to find | 22:39 |
| * bkero shrugs. I've had this conversation before with people asking about superconductors as a remedy to the problem of charging electric cars. | 22:42 | |
| fenn | "The self-discharge of the supercapacitor is substantially higher than that of the electro-chemical battery. Typically, the voltage of the supercapacitor with an organic electrolyte drops from full charge to the 30 percent level in as little as 10 hours. | 22:43 |
| fenn | Other supercapacitors can retain the charged energy longer. With these designs, the capacity drops from full charge to 85 percent in 10 days. In 30 days, the voltage drops to roughly 65 percent and to 40 percent after 60 days." | 22:43 |
| fenn | so, i was wrong. sorry | 22:43 |
| bkero | S'no problem | 22:43 |
| bkero | I'm surprised to see it that high though. | 22:43 |
| bkero | THey'd be really good in electric dragsters. :) | 22:43 |
| bkero | "Look how many amps i can dump!" | 22:44 |
| bkero | I've thought of picking up some supercapacitors, they're about $200 on digikey iirc | 22:44 |
| bkero | 100F 2.7V are $15. | 22:46 |
| bkero | I'd need 14 of them to power my bicycle | 22:46 |
| fenn | ESR is a critical parameter | 22:47 |
| bkero | 10 mOhm | 22:47 |
| bkero | Is that the rate of dischareg? | 22:48 |
| bkero | *discharge | 22:48 |
| bkero | (or internal resistance) | 22:48 |
| fenn | its resistance | 22:48 |
| fenn | hmm that could work | 22:49 |
| bkero | F=(A*sec)/V | 22:53 |
| fenn | at 8kW total you'd dissipate 400W in the capacitor | 22:53 |
| fenn | but 8kW isn't a steady state condition so it's sorta hard to estimate heat sinking requirements | 22:54 |
| bkero | It disappates as heat, and 400w is a shitton of heat | 22:54 |
| fenn | and also you have to consider the thermal conductivity of the insides of the capacitor | 22:54 |
| bkero | 400w would be doable by a really big heat sink. My processor does about 210w | 22:54 |
| fenn | also, you'd only get 20 sec of "thrust" | 22:55 |
| bkero | Which is plenty for a dragster, but not so much a car. :P | 22:56 |
| fenn | ya | 22:56 |
| fenn | but you said bicycle so i assume there's some kind of regenerative braking | 22:56 |
| bkero | Nah, I'm using a cheap motor. | 22:56 |
| bkero | I'm using 2 36v 15Ah batteries, an ebay 750w motor, and a MY1020 750w motor | 22:56 |
| bkero | *ebay controller | 22:57 |
| fenn | then why use supercaps at all? | 22:57 |
| bkero | I hadn't looked into that very much | 22:57 |
| bkero | To put a really fat back tire on the bike and do burnouts | 22:57 |
| bkero | Although supercapacitors would be excellent for taking regenerative braking | 22:57 |
| fenn | well 750W isnt enough to do burnouts :0 | 22:58 |
| bkero | Priuses should use it for regen. :/ | 22:58 |
| bkero | It is on a tiny skinny bike tire. 8) | 22:58 |
| bkero | 745 watts = 1 horsepower | 22:58 |
| bkero | 1 horsepower and < 100lbs | 22:58 |
| fenn | i think i've seen remote controlled cars with >1hp | 22:59 |
| bkero | 1 horsepower will get me up to around 22-30mph depending on if it's completely full or half empty | 22:59 |
| bkero | Voltage drop on lead-acid batteries is aboslute shit. | 23:00 |
| fenn | use a boost converter? eh nevermind | 23:00 |
| bkero | I'd like to replace this pack with lithium ion cells, but that's expensive AND NOBODY MAKES BATTERY HOLDERS FOR THEM!!!! | 23:00 |
| * bkero ordered a 10 pack of 18650s on ebay last week to replace the ones in his aging iBook. | 23:01 | |
| fenn | i just never unplug my laptop | 23:02 |
| bkero | That's pretty bad for the battery. I've ruined 2 in my powerbook that way | 23:02 |
| bkero | If you never unplug it, I'd recommend taking the battery out. | 23:02 |
| fenn | why? | 23:03 |
| bkero | Battery chargers(even smart ones) maintain float voltage on the batteries. | 23:03 |
| bkero | They burn off the top electrolyte | 23:03 |
| bkero | The battery on my macbook is 9 months old, and the battery holds 5091mAh. The battery was originally rated for 5020mAh. | 23:08 |
| bkero | It has 300 load cycles on it | 23:08 |
| fenn | remaining capacity: 299 mAh | 23:09 |
| fenn | it seems to cut that number in half each time i run on battery power | 23:09 |
| fenn | that's "fully charged" | 23:09 |
| bkero | errr | 23:10 |
| bkero | What's 'original capacity'? | 23:10 |
| bkero | / design capacity | 23:10 |
| fenn | i think 2000-3000, not sure how to find out | 23:10 |
| bkero | cat /proc/acpi/battery/BAT0/state | 23:10 |
| fenn | present: yes | 23:11 |
| fenn | capacity state: ok | 23:11 |
| fenn | charging state: discharging | 23:11 |
| fenn | present rate: 800 mA | 23:11 |
| fenn | remaining capacity: 299 mAh | 23:11 |
| fenn | present voltage: 12330 mV | 23:11 |
| bkero | Hum, strange. | 23:11 |
| bkero | Look up your model laptop on google. :P | 23:11 |
| bkero | 300mAh is staggeringly bad though. My 2005 iBook is at 72% original capacity, and goes up to 3100mAh. | 23:11 |
| fenn | i'm sorta wondering how it comes up with that number | 23:12 |
| fenn | looks like it was probably 3600mAh | 23:13 |
| bkero | The ACPI controller on your motherboard shows it to the bios | 23:13 |
| fenn | i want a laptop that takes AA batteries, is that so hard | 23:16 |
| bkero | It's entirely doable. | 23:16 |
| bkero | You'd need 16 AAs to get a decent sized laptop battery | 23:17 |
| fenn | that's about the same as what's there now | 23:18 |
| bkero | The Li-ions in there now are 3.7V * 2000mAh | 23:18 |
| bkero | That's what's been used in laptops for the last 5 years or so | 23:18 |
| bkero | AAs can't be recharged that many times. :/ | 23:19 |
| bkero | Sorry, rechargables are 1.2V. You'd need 20 to get a decent sized battery | 23:19 |
| fenn | what do you mean 'decent'? | 23:20 |
| bkero | Would last more than 1.5 hours | 23:20 |
| bkero | At 1.2V you'd need 10 to get up to 12V. Then you have 12V * capacitory of a single cell | 23:20 |
| bkero | Put 2 of those strings in parallel and you have 12V * double the capacity of a single cell | 23:21 |
| fenn | ok, so NiMH AA batteries are like 2600mAh = 3.25hr | 23:21 |
| fenn | at the 800mA which i'm currently using | 23:21 |
| bkero | NiCAD AA's are 650-800mAh | 23:22 |
| fenn | but i dont need nicad | 23:22 |
| bkero | If you use NiMHs you can get them 1300-2850mAh | 23:22 |
| bkero | Good laptops will typically draw around 18W | 23:23 |
| bkero | So if you have 2850mAh * 12V, that's 34.2 Wh | 23:23 |
| fenn | i guess my laptop sucks then because it's using 10W? | 23:23 |
| bkero | Are you sure it's using 10W? | 23:23 |
| fenn | no | 23:23 |
| fenn | that's just what acpi tells me | 23:24 |
| bkero | 10W is pretty good | 23:24 |
| bkero | Then theoretically a single string of the highest capacity AAs you can find would make it last for 10/34.2 hours | 23:24 |
| fenn | uh, what? | 23:25 |
| bkero | Your laptop is consuming 10 watts per hour | 23:25 |
| bkero | If the battery is 34.2 Wh, that's 10/34.2 hours it'll last | 23:25 |
| fenn | 34.2 watt*hr/10watt = 3.42hours | 23:25 |
| bkero | Sorry, yea | 23:25 |
| bkero | Other way around | 23:25 |
| bkero | Hooray checking for feasability. | 23:26 |
| bkero | 4 hours on 10 AA's isn't too bad | 23:26 |
| bkero | My laptop is using 1487mA at 12.371mV | 23:26 |
| bkero | 18.4 watts :/ | 23:27 |
| bkero | 20 AA's would be a nice auxilery battery pack though. :) | 23:29 |
| bkero | What do you think of Human completion? | 23:48 |
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