| --- Day changed Tue Aug 19 2008 | ||
| nsh | ENOUGH WITH YOUR DAMN PATCHES ALREADY | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| nsh | uh, <small> around that | 00:11 |
| kanzure | oh, you don't like patches? | 00:12 |
| * nsh doesn't get this everything-as-patches thing though | 00:12 | |
| kanzure | when you mess up in anything that you do, do you start from scratch? | 00:12 |
| kanzure | and redo everything? | 00:12 |
| nsh | why don't you use the term 'edit', or 'revision' | 00:13 |
| nsh | ? | 00:13 |
| kanzure | because revision assumes you're wastefully copying bits that you already know | 00:13 |
| kanzure | when you mke an error in your message, you just fix the bad part | 00:13 |
| kanzure | s/mke/make/ | 00:13 |
| kanzure | ;-) | 00:13 |
| * nsh smiles | 00:14 | |
| nsh | it's semantic then | 00:14 |
| kanzure | the choice of 'patch' over 'revision' ? | 00:14 |
| kanzure | yes. | 00:14 |
| nsh | i just hate thinking of things as code that aren't | 00:14 |
| kanzure | ho ho ho | 00:14 |
| nsh | which is not what you intented | 00:14 |
| nsh | just a by-product of the term used | 00:14 |
| kanzure | but isn't everything, fundamentally, code? | 00:15 |
| nsh | you want more big letters, is that it? | 00:16 |
| nsh | :-) | 00:16 |
| kanzure | haha | 00:16 |
| nsh | no, a calander is not a program | 00:17 |
| kanzure | how so? | 00:17 |
| nsh | meh | 00:17 |
| kanzure | you mean, "you don't necessarily have to follow it" ? | 00:18 |
| kanzure | because cronjob looks like a calendar/scheduler | 00:18 |
| kanzure | hell, the linux kernel scheduler | 00:18 |
| kanzure | the 'calendar' being the output of 'top' (well, there's probably a better program I could mention, I'm just not thinking of it right now) | 00:18 |
| nsh | crontab doesn't get run | 00:18 |
| nsh | a program uses it as data | 00:19 |
| nsh | DON'T YOU SEE?!? | 00:19 |
| * nsh too tired and cranky this kinda gonads-chat | 00:19 | |
| nsh | +for | 00:19 |
| * nsh smiles | 00:19 | |
| nsh | if you want to look at everything that causes affects the behavior of some other thing as code | 00:20 |
| nsh | be my guest | 00:20 |
| kanzure | a calendar has a function | 00:20 |
| kanzure | this function is what we program | 00:20 |
| kanzure | programmers write functions | 00:20 |
| * nsh gonna dream about carpet-bombing language | 00:21 | |
| kanzure | hm? | 00:27 |
| nsh | i'll explain another time | 00:31 |
| nsh | gotta get some kip | 00:31 |
| shobin | do any of you guys know people that have thought about synthetic biology in the context of transhumanism? | 02:09 |
| kanzure | me | 02:16 |
| kanzure | sorry for my lag, I was poking at django | 02:16 |
| kanzure | fenn too | 02:16 |
| kanzure | his writozyme is very easily transhuman | 02:16 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/In_vitro_DNA_synthesizer except the writozyme is supposedly in vivo | 02:17 |
| kanzure | genetic engineering is a transhuman topic, you see | 02:18 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html | 02:18 |
| kanzure | I'm also working on a project that I haven't been talking about much involving synthetic wombs | 02:21 |
| shobin | is this an official sort of thing or a side-project? | 02:22 |
| kanzure | what makes it official? | 02:23 |
| kanzure | I was discussing the writozyme with a lab, if that's what you're asking | 02:23 |
| shobin | being affiliated and sponsored by UT Austin | 02:23 |
| kanzure | and am in the process of writing a grant with a fellow in Florida | 02:23 |
| kanzure | grant proposal I mean. | 02:23 |
| shobin | to whom? | 02:23 |
| kanzure | hrm, I think it was something from grants.gov | 02:23 |
| kanzure | I can check the logs if necessary | 02:24 |
| shobin | just curious | 02:24 |
| kanzure | it was inconsequential - once you write up the grant once, you can send it to multiple places | 02:24 |
| kanzure | I was thinking DARPA at first :p but that's not the most obvious place to start | 02:24 |
| shobin | how far along are you, in this project? | 02:25 |
| kanzure | I've (mostly) designed the experiments to get the 'retarded polymerase' | 02:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/diagrams/retarded_polymerase.png | 02:26 |
| kanzure | and lots and lots of literature aggregation heh' | 02:26 |
| kanzure | this is an in vitro directed evolution scenario to try to get a 'retarded polymerase' that would write only one nucleotide | 02:27 |
| kanzure | the next part is somehow either (1) throwing A-retard, T-retard, G-retard, and C-retard together into one molecule or (2) attaching them to beta clamp maybe?, and then getting them to respond to lasers (lots of good literature on this) | 02:28 |
| shobin | what's the purpose? | 02:28 |
| kanzure | biological DNA synthesizer | 02:28 |
| kanzure | the 'writozyme' | 02:28 |
| kanzure | flash some light, it (slowly) makes DNA | 02:29 |
| shobin | how would you like the lasers to manipulate your 'retarded' nucleotides | 02:29 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Retarded_polymerase | 02:29 |
| kanzure | chromophore-assisted activation | 02:30 |
| kanzure | ' and inactivates each protein by approximately 90% in <30 s of widefield illumination.' <-- this is a problem with it though | 02:32 |
| kanzure | since 10% is ok once maybe, but then over 1000 writes that's . bad. | 02:32 |
| kanzure | hey nemos_ | 02:32 |
| nemos_ | hi kanzure | 02:32 |
| shobin | how fast could this be | 02:32 |
| kanzure | shobin: hahah | 02:32 |
| kanzure | slow as hell methinks | 02:32 |
| kanzure | polymerase works pretty quickly at 1000 bp per second | 02:32 |
| kanzure | but | 02:32 |
| kanzure | look above | 02:33 |
| kanzure | the chromophore method takes 30 seconds of widefield illumination | 02:33 |
| kanzure | so it has to be a slow polymerase that only moves when we tell it to | 02:33 |
| kanzure | unless there''s a faster way to inactivate polymerase via lasers | 02:33 |
| kanzure | Who was nemos_ ? | 02:33 |
| shobin | no idea | 02:34 |
| shobin | I thought you knew him from the greeting | 02:34 |
| shobin | clearly he knows you | 02:34 |
| kanzure | hm | 02:34 |
| kanzure | not sure | 02:34 |
| kanzure | anyway, with biological DNA synthesizers you can do cool things like automated synthetic biology ... the overall project is kinda http://heybryan.org/bioreactors.html | 02:35 |
| kanzure | oops | 02:36 |
| kanzure | 404 | 02:36 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/new_exp.html | 02:36 |
| kanzure | it also mentions a link to http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bioreactors | 02:36 |
| shobin | those would be neat to have | 02:37 |
| kanzure | self-contained self-replicating biology lab. but there's a ridiculously large number of awesome projects. | 02:37 |
| kanzure | *of other, orthogonal awesome projects. | 02:37 |
| shobin | your blurb about aptamers is interesting | 02:39 |
| shobin | I hadn't heard of those before | 02:39 |
| kanzure | :) | 02:39 |
| shobin | seems like they would be difficult to use though | 02:39 |
| shobin | a very ad hoc sort of solution | 02:39 |
| kanzure | hm? | 02:39 |
| kanzure | in which context? | 02:39 |
| shobin | finding the right aptamers to use | 02:40 |
| kanzure | at UT here we have a robot that does aptamer selection experiments | 02:40 |
| kanzure | for the therapeutic application of aptamers, they just make random pools of them and see which ones bind to stuff at adequate numbers | 02:40 |
| kanzure | the hiss in the noise :) | 02:40 |
| shobin | mm | 02:40 |
| shobin | and once you find the right ones you're set | 02:40 |
| shobin | that's cool... | 02:41 |
| shobin | how much are they? | 02:41 |
| kanzure | we make our own | 02:41 |
| kanzure | the lab, I mean | 02:41 |
| * kanzure is not officially with the lab | 02:41 | |
| kanzure | one of the only labs left with their own DNA synthesizer apparently | 02:41 |
| kanzure | everyone else tends to outsource to companies or on-campus synthesis companies | 02:42 |
| shobin | are you binding to the ecoli or your desired neurotransmitter? | 02:42 |
| kanzure | hm? | 02:46 |
| kanzure | which project are you talking about now? | 02:46 |
| shobin | even when the aptamers bind successfully - how do you isolate the substance you want | 02:46 |
| shobin | I'm talking about aptamers | 02:46 |
| kanzure | neurotransmitter | 02:46 |
| kanzure | this is all in vitro | 02:46 |
| shobin | were you talking about using them in conjunction with bioreactors? | 02:47 |
| kanzure | aptamers do not work in vivo | 02:47 |
| kanzure | not without siRNA | 02:47 |
| kanzure | yeah, there are a few cases where I've considered aptamers + the bioreactor idea | 02:47 |
| kanzure | somebody in the lab was working on using aptamers to capture tsch or something | 02:49 |
| kanzure | the hormone used to stop muscle growth in the body | 02:49 |
| kanzure | as you take that up, specifically, muscle mass goes up | 02:49 |
| kanzure | some poor kids out there have low levels of the hormone because of their various mutations | 02:50 |
| shobin | oh yeah, myostatin right? | 03:18 |
| kanzure | yes | 03:18 |
| shobin | there's at least one myostatin drug going through testing now | 03:18 |
| kanzure | hah, that'll take decades | 03:19 |
| shobin | yeah | 03:19 |
| kanzure | better do it yourself. | 03:19 |
| shobin | have you seen the myostatin dog? looks ridiculous | 03:19 |
| kanzure | hm | 03:19 |
| shobin | http://www.technologyreview.com/files/13395/whippet_x220.jpg | 03:19 |
| kanzure | http://www.who-sucks.com/people/monstrous-myostatin-misfortunes-a-collection-of-myostatin-deficiency-pictures | 03:19 |
| shobin | yeah, better site | 03:20 |
| shobin | I'll be watching that little kid as he grows up | 03:22 |
| shobin | too bad he has so many other complications | 03:22 |
| shobin | makes it difficult to draw any conclusions about what kind of effect myostatin blockage has long term | 03:22 |
| kanzure | 'Two days after birth, he was able to fully stand-up and support his own weight.' | 03:23 |
| shobin | yeah, that's just insane | 03:23 |
| shobin | almost superhero-esque | 03:23 |
| kanzure | :) | 03:25 |
| kanzure | tanshuman-esque, you mean | 03:25 |
| shobin | haha | 03:25 |
| kanzure | 'I'm looking for something that can convert wmf to dxf (or gcode). Any ideas?I'm looking for something that can convert wmf to dxf (or gcode). Any ideas?' | 03:58 |
| marainein | hi | 07:01 |
| kanzure | Hey marainein. | 07:02 |
| marainein | hi kanzure :) | 07:02 |
| marainein | i haven't been here in a while | 07:02 |
| marainein | and i wasn't here for long, so you probably don't remember me | 07:02 |
| marainein | did you start the job at the lab yet? | 07:03 |
| kanzure | oh yes | 07:03 |
| kanzure | already finished too | 07:04 |
| kanzure | by 'finished' I mean I stopped going in to the lab | 07:04 |
| marainein | how'd it go? change any of your views on mol bio? | 07:04 |
| kanzure | it went ok, but it turns out that I'm not all that fast with gels | 07:05 |
| kanzure | we were doing some transcriptional switches and in vitro molecular manufacturing of sorts ;-) | 07:06 |
| kanzure | Turing patterns with DNA computers, is one way of summarizing the work | 07:06 |
| marainein | sound impressive | 07:06 |
| kanzure | :) | 07:06 |
| marainein | what sort of stage were they at? | 07:06 |
| kanzure | the gels were smearing for an unknown reason | 07:07 |
| kanzure | trying to get some basic transcriptional switches to work | 07:08 |
| kanzure | but we were planning out some possible setups for emulsions and computing | 07:08 |
| kanzure | I didn't really like that particular path of getting it done, but on the software end people understood to get the Turing pattern simulations up to speed with DNA binding thresholds re: Watson-Crick base pairing 'rules' and so on | 07:08 |
| kanzure | so that the computational aspect could be correctly modeled | 07:08 |
| kanzure | we didn't really even know if the transcriptional switches were doing what they should have been | 07:09 |
| kanzure | since we had no way of really generating the circuits correctly | 07:09 |
| marainein | how does one turn dna into computers? | 07:09 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/winfree.html | 07:09 |
| kanzure | http://dna.caltech.edu/ | 07:09 |
| marainein | thanks | 07:10 |
| kanzure | except that you should never expect to see dna as a computer since it's slow | 07:10 |
| kanzure | it's really good at building stuff though ;-) | 07:10 |
| kanzure | so think of it as an intersection between manufacturing and computation | 07:11 |
| marainein | what sort of molecular manufacturing were they hoping to get done? something apart from the usual dna/protein stuff? | 07:12 |
| kanzure | Turing patterns made out of sucrose or some other sugar | 07:12 |
| kanzure | i.e., think of growing a crystal in a vat based off of a pattern | 07:12 |
| marainein | what sort of applications would that have? | 07:13 |
| kanzure | building a tank from a seed | 07:14 |
| kanzure | guess how we got funding. | 07:14 |
| kanzure | heh' | 07:14 |
| marainein | a tank made out of sugars? | 07:14 |
| kanzure | this is a first step :) | 07:14 |
| marainein | well, chiton and celluluose are made out of sugars... | 07:15 |
| kanzure | the first step would be a mass of sugars just appearing in your pcr reactions | 07:16 |
| kanzure | or so I guess. | 07:16 |
| marainein | yeah, i was just wondering what sort of useful things could be made from it...the tank idea sounds silly | 07:17 |
| marainein | "computational work of a chemical reaction network scales polylogarthmically in the total molecular count, suggesting that large scale ensembles of molecules directly preform computations via physical/chemical reactions and are genuinely powerful number-crunchers " | 07:18 |
| bkero | Hahahahaha. Whooo! http://www.religion-cults.com/cloning/god.htm | 07:18 |
| marainein | ...but semiconductor based computing is increasing all the time, and expotentially...biomolecule based computing probably wouldn't | 07:19 |
| kanzure | hm? | 07:19 |
| kanzure | bkero: Awesome. | 07:19 |
| bkero | kanzure: I'm thinking about cloning god. | 07:19 |
| bkero | Have we sequenced gods genes yet? | 07:20 |
| marainein | make a pantheon | 07:20 |
| kanzure | bkero: http://web.archive.org/web/20000614170338/http://www.clonejesus.com/ | 07:20 |
| bkero | kanzure: No dude, I don't want to clone some faggy hippy. | 07:20 |
| bkero | I want to clone an incorporeal being. :) | 07:20 |
| kanzure | What's the Shroud of Turin? | 07:21 |
| marainein | use somatic gene therapy to insert those genes in yourself | 07:21 |
| marainein | kanzure: i shroud that was supposedly used to wrap the body of jesus | 07:21 |
| marainein | *a | 07:22 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 07:22 |
| bkero | I like this one more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Lance | 07:22 |
| marainein | or the holy grail | 07:23 |
| marainein | i think carbon dating has found it has the wrong date of origin | 07:23 |
| marainein | (the shroud) | 07:23 |
| kanzure | marainein: The tank idea is not so silly. It got the lab funding from the military. | 07:23 |
| bkero | Carbon dating is also used to identify objects that are over 5000 years old, which is impossible since the earth is only 5000 years old. | 07:24 |
| marainein | hi Nofaris | 07:24 |
| Nofaris | Hello | 07:24 |
| marainein | kanzure: a tank made out of biological materials? | 07:25 |
| kanzure | marainein: No, this is molecular manufacturing. It doesn't have to always be biological. | 07:25 |
| kanzure | hey Nofaris | 07:25 |
| Nofaris | Hello | 07:25 |
| Nofaris | How are you doing? | 07:26 |
| kanzure | A newbie? | 07:26 |
| Nofaris | Sure | 07:26 |
| kanzure | I'm doing awesome. | 07:26 |
| bkero | nooblets :) | 07:26 |
| kanzure | bkero: except better than java applets | 07:26 |
| bkero | What? | 07:26 |
| kanzure | *lets usually refers to applets | 07:26 |
| kanzure | sometimes | 07:26 |
| bkero | Oh | 07:26 |
| bkero | I don't even acknowledge java's existence. | 07:27 |
| kanzure | hurray | 07:28 |
| bkero | kanzure: What do you think about inducing parthenogenesis for cloning? | 07:28 |
| kanzure | Wha? | 07:28 |
| kanzure | I haven't heard of this method. | 07:28 |
| kanzure | oh, wait | 07:28 |
| kanzure | I think I have. | 07:28 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis | 07:29 |
| bkero | Yes | 07:29 |
| bkero | It's asexual reproduction | 07:29 |
| * kanzure is scheming up a way to convert men into asexual machines | 07:29 | |
| kanzure | artificial wombs and the like | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.nrlc.org/Killing_Embryos/ArtificialWombs.html | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1011.htm | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/Ectogenesis-Artificial-Technology-Reproduction-Inquiry/dp/9042020814 | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.geocities.com/placenta_rb/Biblio.html | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/22/neggs122.xml | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.aec.at/festival2000/texte/nobuya_unno_e.htm | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2005/Faking-Babies-Reproduction19may05.htm | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.eshre.com/CM.NET.WebUI/CM.NET.webUI.SCPR/SCPRfunctiondetail.aspx?confID=05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000029&sesID=05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000002074&absID=07000000-0000-0000-0000-000000014605 | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13418180.400-japanese-pioneers-raise-kid-in-rubber-womb-.html | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19526146.200&feedId=online-news_rss20 | 07:29 |
| kanzure | ok, would also work for women :) | 07:30 |
| kanzure | but women already have a damn womb | 07:30 |
| kanzure | cheaters. | 07:30 |
| Nofaris | lmao | 07:30 |
| marainein | but they might have reasons not to use it | 07:30 |
| marainein | like age | 07:30 |
| marainein | or health concerns | 07:30 |
| kanzure | or pain | 07:30 |
| kanzure | :) | 07:30 |
| bkero | Or menopause | 07:31 |
| kanzure | oh, and death | 07:31 |
| kanzure | let's not forget that | 07:31 |
| kanzure | how can that womb replicate itself when it's dead? | 07:31 |
| marainein | they could freeze eggs when they're young, and have them fertilized in a test tube whenever they're ready to have children, and have the child grown in an artificial womb | 07:31 |
| marainein | yes | 07:31 |
| bkero | Isn't that what's done today? | 07:31 |
| marainein | but the most expensive part of children isn't the gestation part, it's the raising part | 07:32 |
| marainein | bkero: yes, but they have to use their own womb | 07:32 |
| bkero | marainein: Or someone elses? | 07:32 |
| marainein | also you don't have to worry about environmental toxins disrupting development | 07:33 |
| bkero | 07:32 < Oublei> bkero: tell them that you have a friend who is looking to drop her's for 10% below current black market value if they are interested. | 07:33 |
| marainein | or drinking | 07:33 |
| bkero | You guys interested in one lot of womens plumbin's? | 07:33 |
| kanzure | bkero: Except they don't have the awombs. | 07:33 |
| kanzure | I knew a girl in high school who was going to be paid $130k to womb a child | 07:34 |
| kanzure | lot? Are you a butcher? | 07:34 |
| bkero | Surrogate with artificial insemination? | 07:34 |
| kanzure | mm | 07:34 |
| bkero | kanzure: But if we used parthenogenesis, it doesn't matter that we'd only produce females, because they could simply reproduce by themselves. | 07:35 |
| bkero | You're just cranky because you can't do it on your own. :P | 07:35 |
| kanzure | yes | 07:36 |
| bkero | kanzure: Have you successfully made an artificial womb yet? If not, why? | 07:37 |
| kanzure | lazy | 07:38 |
| marainein | bkero: your self-reproducing females would be clones of their mothers, and wouldn't get the benefits of recombination | 07:38 |
| bkero | Unless we modified the egg invitro | 07:38 |
| kanzure | marainein: That doesn't matter. | 07:38 |
| kanzure | yah | 07:39 |
| kanzure | yeah | 07:39 |
| kanzure | really, that's not going to be an issue | 07:39 |
| kanzure | just apt-get install new gens | 07:39 |
| kanzure | *genes | 07:39 |
| bkero | So it looks like some work is being done using parthenogenesis to harvest stem cells, but not so much for the full gestation of children. | 07:41 |
| bkero | Simply because we don't have the gene therapy to correct it | 07:41 |
| kanzure | Hm? | 07:41 |
| kanzure | correct what ? | 07:41 |
| bkero | *correct developmental abnormalities | 07:41 |
| kanzure | ah | 07:41 |
| kanzure | In the case of Kuwabara's rubber wombs, the developmental abnormalities, I suspect, were because of a lack of knowledge of what biochemistry of the womb to emulate. | 07:42 |
| bkero | kanzure: Have you tried your hand at artificial wombs yet? | 07:43 |
| bkero | and what's the link on your wiki for biological computation? (the boolean logic gates) | 07:44 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Pamela Sargent - Cloned Lives.pdf | 07:44 |
| fenn | if you want to read more than chapter 1 | 07:44 |
| kanzure | bkero: http://heybryan.org/winfree.html http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wittig_cohort etc. | 07:45 |
| bkero | <3 | 07:45 |
| kanzure | bkero: No, I haven't. Again, I told you - "laziness". The real reason is because I haven't really gone through the bioreactor design requirements for emulating the biochemistries of various wombs. | 07:45 |
| * kanzure wonders about turning humans into oviparitious creatures. | 07:46 | |
| marainein | er, can you explain what that is? | 07:47 |
| * fenn mumbles something about wasps and caterpillars | 07:47 | |
| fenn | oviparous = egg-laying | 07:47 |
| marainein | which in a sense we'd be, if we started using artificial wombs | 07:48 |
| kanzure | wasp hives are interesting | 07:48 |
| kanzure | (when they aren't annoying) | 07:48 |
| bkero | Why? Social dynamics? | 07:49 |
| kanzure | architecture of the hive and the seemingly random locations in which they turn up | 07:50 |
| fenn | not random | 07:50 |
| kanzure | they've been making mud huts ever since we didn't know how and were living in trees | 07:50 |
| kanzure | seemingly random :) | 07:50 |
| fenn | well, anything is non-obvious if you're stupid :) | 07:50 |
| kanzure | why do they all agree to make it five centimeters to the right of such-and-such location? | 07:52 |
| marainein | do they all have to agree? | 07:53 |
| fenn | apparently wasps from one nest can abandon their own for a better one, they just join the new team | 07:53 |
| marainein | adoption? in the animal kingdom? | 07:55 |
| fenn | was this url already posted in here? wtf http://betsydevine.com/blog/2008/05/13/a-pound-of-sugar-and-a-pint-of-beer/ | 07:55 |
| kanzure | me likes | 07:56 |
| marainein | where'd they get their protein from? | 07:58 |
| fenn | bugs | 07:58 |
| fenn | hmm | 07:59 |
| marainein | kanzure: you still interested in aubrey de grey's work? | 07:59 |
| * fenn grumbles about conflicting information | 08:00 | |
| kanzure | marainein: yes | 08:01 |
| kanzure | marainein: I was about to send him my resume | 08:01 |
| kanzure | he emailed me saying to send it over to John Schloendorn actually | 08:01 |
| marainein | awesome | 08:01 |
| kanzure | they are in need of some more lab guys | 08:02 |
| marainein | who's john schloendorn? | 08:02 |
| marainein | what's this for? | 08:02 |
| kanzure | the guy who tries to make Aubrey's ideas work | 08:02 |
| marainein | any particular idea? | 08:02 |
| kanzure | http://www.methuselahfoundation.org/index.php?pagename=lysosens | 08:02 |
| marainein | lysosens? | 08:02 |
| kanzure | lysosens | 08:02 |
| marainein | ah | 08:02 |
| marainein | i heard they had some progress with that, but i haven't seen the publication | 08:02 |
| marainein | do you know anything more about it than what's on the website? | 08:03 |
| kanzure | no :( | 08:05 |
| kanzure | well | 08:05 |
| kanzure | yes | 08:05 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhuman/ | 08:05 |
| kanzure | Aubrey.zip has all of Aubrey's papers that I know of | 08:05 |
| kanzure | I read through all of them in a night a while back | 08:05 |
| kanzure | just before I was to talk with him in #immortal on irc.lucifer.com | 08:06 |
| kanzure | so I do know what he's on about | 08:06 |
| marainein | yeah, i've read most his stuff...i was wondering about anything recent | 08:06 |
| kanzure | but I have some other ideas that he doesn't exactly promote | 08:06 |
| kanzure | nope | 08:06 |
| marainein | there was a conference a month ago | 08:06 |
| kanzure | he gave a talk up in California, but it was just an ego trip "why everyone hates me" | 08:06 |
| kanzure | ah, well, this was after that conference | 08:06 |
| marainein | but they haven't release much information | 08:06 |
| kanzure | Aubrey needs to get with the program: | 08:07 |
| marainein | you were there? | 08:07 |
| kanzure | BioBarCamp | 08:07 |
| kanzure | aug 6 and 7 | 08:07 |
| kanzure | (1) Need to get kits for home users to search for the Holy Grail on their own. | 08:07 |
| marainein | ah, ok...were there any videos from it? | 08:07 |
| kanzure | (2) the body sucks; just focus specifically on antiaging in the brain. Anything else can become a prosthetic. | 08:07 |
| kanzure | no :( | 08:07 |
| kanzure | wait | 08:08 |
| kanzure | heh, I stole one from somebody | 08:08 |
| kanzure | you really want it? | 08:08 |
| marainein | sure | 08:08 |
| marainein | what's it about? | 08:08 |
| kanzure | why everybody hates him | 08:08 |
| marainein | ok...i'll watch | 08:09 |
| kanzure | let me upload | 08:09 |
| kanzure | woah | 08:09 |
| kanzure | 10 MB/sec | 08:09 |
| kanzure | I love this dorm | 08:09 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/biobarcamp/ | 08:09 |
| marainein | thanks....for making me jealous :P | 08:10 |
| kanzure | the first one might be it | 08:10 |
| kanzure | not the third | 08:10 |
| kanzure | not the second | 08:10 |
| kanzure | okay :) process of elimination | 08:11 |
| marainein | ok...thanks :) | 08:11 |
| marainein | what did he have to say? | 08:11 |
| kanzure | uhm, not much | 08:11 |
| * marainein downloads....slooooooooooooly | 08:11 | |
| Nofaris | 10MB/s must be so godly | 08:12 |
| kanzure | "how to be a successful heretic" | 08:12 |
| bkero | god damn 18k/s | 08:12 |
| kanzure | Nofaris: I downloaded Nature in a day. | 08:12 |
| kanzure | And then god said, wget -m. | 08:12 |
| kanzure | (actually, I didn't use wget -m, but anyway ..) | 08:13 |
| marainein | I was wondering why more people weren't interested in this lysosens thing | 08:13 |
| kanzure | hm? | 08:13 |
| marainein | lipofuscin has got to be the single biggest killer in the world | 08:13 |
| marainein | any idea to deal with it, even if it's a long shot, ought to get people excited | 08:14 |
| bkero | marainein: Don't intake any calories, that gets rid of them. | 08:17 |
| fenn | jumping in a vat of fuming sulfuric acid also gets rid of them.. | 08:18 |
| kanzure | 'A failed attempt made towards solving the problem is not a milestone | 08:18 |
| kanzure | on the path towards solving the problem, unless you point to a | 08:18 |
| kanzure | specific successful lesson drawn from such an attempt. You can't just | 08:18 |
| kanzure | perform rituals of failure faster and faster and expect them to | 08:18 |
| kanzure | converge on success. Neither can you make shows for the public and | 08:18 |
| kanzure | expect the depicted events magically come true.' | 08:18 |
| kanzure | hurray | 08:18 |
| fenn | who said that? | 08:19 |
| kanzure | somebody on the singularity mailing list | 08:21 |
| kanzure | Vladimir Nesov | 08:21 |
| kanzure | http://anybots.com/ - 'Blackwell sees a future in which a low-paid worker from India might remotely control a robot in your kitchen, taking on tasks that today might be assigned to a servant. Blackwell believes that this is the Next Big Thing, and that thousands of homes will be using his robots to clean, cook, and serve meals. This scheme would effectively allow rich countries to import labor -- without the laborer.' | 08:22 |
| kanzure | http://blogs.spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/2007/08/07/labor_without_the_laborer.html | 08:22 |
| fenn | john mccarthy has been talking about that for years | 08:23 |
| kanzure | I'm sure | 08:24 |
| kanzure | it's obviously cheating | 08:24 |
| kanzure | and it's also obvious in the first place ... just outsourcing to india | 08:25 |
| fenn | it's also ten years too late | 08:25 |
| marainein | the price of labor tends to rise, while the price of computing power tends to fall | 08:25 |
| marainein | yeah, it's not a good long term idea, i think | 08:25 |
| kanzure | economics don't matter | 08:26 |
| kanzure | there was a dream posted on the internet once, | 08:26 |
| kanzure | a story by a friend of a game developer, | 08:26 |
| kanzure | wherein the protagonist finds himself talking with an internet goddess | 08:27 |
| kanzure | so that he might reverse engineer her and write her superior | 08:27 |
| kanzure | it turns out that the best way to do this was to outsource to everybody else | 08:27 |
| kanzure | just like the (actual) Internet Oracle | 08:27 |
| marainein | nobody's got any ideas for why lysosens is being so unjustly neglected by the scientific community? | 08:28 |
| fenn | because goals like immortality are 'fringe' | 08:28 |
| marainein | is curing heart disease 'fringe'? | 08:29 |
| fenn | humans tend to ignore heavy baseline deaths in favor of spectacular exciting ones | 08:29 |
| marainein | there's plenty of money being invested in statins and cholestrol controlling drugs | 08:30 |
| marainein | fenn: i know...it bothers me so much | 08:30 |
| marainein | 'One of the things I routinely tell people is that if it's in the news, don't worry about it. By definition, "news" means that it hardly ever happens. If a risk is in the news, then it's probably not worth worrying about. When something is no longer reported -- automobile deaths, domestic violence -- when it's so common that it's not news, then you should start worrying.' | 08:31 |
| fenn | unless they're bombing your city | 08:34 |
| marainein | true | 08:35 |
| kanzure | funerals | 08:35 |
| kanzure | while I have never been to a funeral, sitting around and moping about the death of a family member has always .. made me uneasy | 08:36 |
| kanzure | because I immediately think | 08:36 |
| kanzure | "I should be reading papers." | 08:36 |
| kanzure | and "I can solve this stupid problem." | 08:36 |
| kanzure | how much do these people really care ? | 08:36 |
| * marainein nods | 08:36 | |
| kanzure | meh | 08:36 |
| * marainein is phobic of death | 08:36 | |
| bkero | kanzure: I will give you all the money in my bank account if you can make me not die. | 08:38 |
| kanzure | "me" ? | 08:39 |
| bkero | Me personally :P | 08:39 |
| kanzure | comment still stands | 08:39 |
| bkero | :P I'd like to keep my conciousness, everything else is ambiguous. | 08:40 |
| kanzure | even twins are different | 08:40 |
| kanzure | what the fuck is consciousness | 08:40 |
| bkero | I'd like to be self-aware and sentient. | 08:41 |
| bkero | IE not just keep the e. coli in my guts alive. :P | 08:42 |
| kanzure | comment still applies .. | 08:43 |
| bkero | Do you want some existential answer about what defines "me"? | 08:45 |
| kanzure | There is no "me". I mean, there's me, yes, but there's nome. | 08:48 |
| kanzure | gee, how do I put this | 08:48 |
| kanzure | ge-no-me | 08:48 |
| kanzure | it's kind of like a genome | 08:48 |
| kanzure | a blueprint | 08:48 |
| kanzure | okay, corny :) | 08:48 |
| bkero | You're talking the distinction between cognition and meat? | 08:49 |
| marainein | spinning out on the hard problem of consciousness? | 08:49 |
| kanzure | No. | 08:49 |
| kanzure | It's not a hard problem because the problem is nonexistant... | 08:49 |
| kanzure | *nonexistent | 08:49 |
| kanzure | bkero is the last person who would opt to disagree with me on this ;-) | 08:50 |
| bkero | Heh | 08:51 |
| kanzure | the hard part is telling people that their brain is real | 08:51 |
| kanzure | and then even harder is moving on once they refuse to believe that their experiences that they become/have/whatever are indeed real as well | 08:52 |
| bkero | They have a physical manifestation | 08:52 |
| kanzure | bah, impossible! how could this be biophysics? | 08:52 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html | 08:52 |
| marainein | so | 08:54 |
| marainein | do you have some code that can demonstrate/simulate self-awareness? | 08:54 |
| kanzure | bkero: How would you even propose to make the "me-system" check if me is one me or the other? You can hardly do that with a controlled experiment on the "me" that proposes that in the first place. ;-) | 08:55 |
| kanzure | you don't get it ... | 08:55 |
| kanzure | self-awareness is more or less meaningless in this context as far as I can tell | 08:55 |
| bkero | You're saying it's impossible to discern one me from another. | 08:56 |
| marainein | in what context? information processing? | 08:56 |
| kanzure | the context of ungrounded knowledge and functionality ... ;-) | 08:57 |
| kanzure | bkero: You could probably come up with some 'limits' that you would think are representative of 'youness' or whatever aspect you want to call that. But it's hard to do this when you don't even know the mediums and channels will be of expression. For instance, how would you look in ms paint, versus look in the text in this channel? And so on. | 08:58 |
| kanzure | limits/parameterspace thingy I guess | 08:58 |
| * kanzure has actually been trying to figure out how to not have to import 'identity' assumptions into philosophical frameworks. Sleep walking might be it, not sure. | 08:59 | |
| fenn | all your cells are belong to gaia | 09:00 |
| kanzure | 'And so Man dropped his seed into the Test Tube, and from the artificial wombs came many races of men, and races that were men no longer: the Elidi grew wings and the Agathanians carked their bodies into the shape of seals and dove beneath the waters of their planet; the Hoshi learned the difficult art of breathing methane while the Alaloi rediscovered arts ancient and ageless. | 09:00 |
| kanzure | On the Civilized Worlds there were many who sought to improve their racial inheritance in some small way. The exemplars of Bodhi Luz, for example, desired children of greater stature and so, inch by inch, generation by generation, they bred human beings ten feet tall. Chaos reined as human beings from different planets found that they were unable to mate and bear children in the natural manner. | 09:00 |
| kanzure | Thus Man formulated the third and greatest of his laws, which came to be called the Law of the Civilized Worlds: A man may do with his flesh as he pleases but his DNA belongs to his species.' | 09:00 |
| kanzure | - from A Requiem for Homo Sapiens, by Horthy Hosthoh | 09:00 |
| fenn | oo ten feet tall | 09:02 |
| kanzure | of all things to do :) | 09:02 |
| fenn | the mind boggles | 09:02 |
| kanzure | "his essence belongs to his species" is another interpretation. I'm not saying DNA is essence, but I am saying that 'human' is a way of life with various perceptions and carked niches. 'Not dying' is generally considered somewhat trans/post-humanous. The "me" thing ... | 09:02 |
| fenn | kanzure: reminds me of heinlein | 09:02 |
| kanzure | it's Zindell. | 09:02 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/quotes.html | 09:03 |
| fenn | um, the law idea, not the epic prose | 09:03 |
| kanzure | ah | 09:03 |
| kanzure | I think Zindell is coming from a somewhat jewish background .. the idea of a tight society that knows its own laws and rules for somewhat good reasons and the like. Not bad, as long as you allow some of us to escape. | 09:03 |
| fenn | in 'number of the beast' ishtar the geneticist is explaining why lazarus and his mother should have a child, and how she would do it anyway behind their backs if they refused because their genes don't belong to them | 09:04 |
| fenn | kanzure did you ever read 'the sword and the helix'? | 09:07 |
| fenn | oops, 'the helix and the sword' | 09:07 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/quotes.html#Posthuman <-- New quotes | 09:08 |
| kanzure | Wilson? | 09:08 |
| kanzure | not yet | 09:08 |
| fenn | by john mcloughlin | 09:08 |
| marainein | what's it about? | 09:09 |
| * marainein thinks most of heinlein's later works sucked badly | 09:09 | |
| fenn | after earth blows up, the only thing left of humanity is some tissue culture experiments in orbit, which grow and turn into a civilization spanning the asteroid belt | 09:09 |
| fenn | they have a caste of genetic engineers that make living space habitats | 09:10 |
| marainein | out of seeds? | 09:11 |
| fenn | erm, yeah i guess | 09:11 |
| marainein | :P | 09:11 |
| kanzure | neat | 09:11 |
| fenn | most of the habitats were very old so they didnt really explain how they started out | 09:11 |
| fenn | anyway, i hope it's as good as i remember it from sixth grade | 09:12 |
| kanzure | you have a copy? | 09:12 |
| kanzure | heh | 09:12 |
| fenn | no, i should get one and scan it | 09:12 |
| * bkero sleeps | 09:12 | |
| * marainein holds a competition for the best sci fi novel you've ever read | 09:13 | |
| kanzure | Neverness. | 09:13 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/quotes.html#Posthuman <-- quotes from Neverness | 09:14 |
| marainein | i don't think i've even heard of it | 09:14 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell,%20David%20-%20Neverness%20(v1.0).txt | 09:14 |
| marainein | can you tell me a little about it? | 09:14 |
| kanzure | Mallory Ringess, novitiate of the Order of the Mystical Mathematicians and Other Seekers of the Ineffable Flame, journies to save the galaxy from the Vild, an exponentially increasing region of the galaxy where stars continue to die. | 09:16 |
| kanzure | *Mystic | 09:16 |
| marainein | this sounds serious | 09:17 |
| kanzure | It is. | 09:17 |
| marainein | what do you like about it so much? | 09:18 |
| kanzure | not sure if it's any one thing in particular | 09:20 |
| kanzure | ' - But how is it possible? How could it be possible that everything is really all right? | 09:20 |
| kanzure | - How could it not be possible?' | 09:20 |
| marainein | hi Rabbit | 09:22 |
| kanzure | Rabbit? | 09:22 |
| kanzure | who are these newbies? | 09:22 |
| Rabbit | Hello | 09:22 |
| marainein | it's kind of quiet in here now | 09:22 |
| kanzure | where are they coming from? | 09:23 |
| marainein | kanzure: sorry, it's my fault | 09:23 |
| kanzure | oh? | 09:23 |
| kanzure | hm | 09:23 |
| kanzure | netspace? | 09:23 |
| kanzure | that's where Greg Egan is hosted | 09:23 |
| marainein | they won't cause trouble, i promise | 09:23 |
| kanzure | yes, but who are they? | 09:23 |
| fenn | Rabbit: have you ever killed a man? | 09:23 |
| marainein | nofaris and rabbit are friends of mine...i was talking to them about you and this place, and they asked to join | 09:24 |
| kanzure | okay | 09:24 |
| kanzure | just wondering | 09:24 |
| * kanzure pokes at the newbie | 09:26 | |
| marainein | she has connection problems sometimes | 09:26 |
| * marainein examines rabbit 's pulse | 09:27 | |
| marainein | oh, while i remember, i wanted to talk to someone about moore's law | 09:27 |
| Rabbit | Don't worry about me. I'm just sitting in. Won't cause any trouble. | 09:27 |
| Rabbit | Marainein is a friend of mine. He suggested that there was an interesting conversation going on here. | 09:27 |
| kanzure | Was he kind enough to give you a log? | 09:28 |
| * fenn wonders what the interesting conversation was | 09:28 | |
| marainein | just the consciousness stuff | 09:28 |
| marainein | rabbit's a philosopher | 09:29 |
| Rabbit | Yeah, tonight isn't so good. My internet's very slow. | 09:29 |
| Rabbit | Fenn: No, I've never killed a man. | 09:29 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-08-19-%23hplusroadmap.html | 09:29 |
| kanzure | Does the philosopher know of epistemology, systematics, systemantics, ontologies, groundtruthing ? | 09:30 |
| kanzure | just wondering what sort of philosophy we're talking about here. | 09:30 |
| * fenn giggles every time he reads 'system antics' | 09:30 | |
| kanzure | I thought that was the point | 09:30 |
| fenn | why is that a prerequesite anyway? half of his 'truths' are wrong anyway | 09:31 |
| fenn | ANYWAY! | 09:31 |
| kanzure | prereq? hardly a prereq | 09:31 |
| kanzure | but clearly systems do have antics and 'take on a life of their own' in some sense | 09:31 |
| kanzure | suppose I should rephrase it as 'complexity science' and philosophy of systems or something | 09:32 |
| fenn | standard engineering practice | 09:32 |
| Rabbit | I'm presently tutoring a first year epistemology paper, but epistemology isn't my speciality. | 09:33 |
| Rabbit | I'm also unfamiliar with systematics, systemantics and groundtruthing. I'm familiar with some ontological problems. It sounds as though our interests don't overlap much. Sorry to disappoint. | 09:33 |
| kanzure | just what was on the top of my head tonight | 09:35 |
| kanzure | rather conclusive | 09:35 |
| kanzure | .. | 09:35 |
| marainein | Rabbit: i found a debate on the web you might be interested in | 09:36 |
| Rabbit | What's the debate? | 09:37 |
| fenn | "Distinguishing knowing that from knowing how" reminds me of declarative vs procedural memory | 09:38 |
| marainein | http://www.cato-unbound.org/wp-print.php?page_id=659 | 09:38 |
| Rabbit | Fenn: That sounds on the money to me. | 09:38 |
| fenn | but that's not a philosophical thing at all, it's neuroscience | 09:38 |
| kanzure | :) | 09:38 |
| Rabbit | Philosophy had that distinction well before neuroscience got off the ground. | 09:39 |
| Rabbit | Not that philosophy has a monopoly on it... the two fields are probably just pointing at the same distinction in different ways/for different reasons. | 09:40 |
| fenn | doesn't it make you wonder what other philosophical conundrums are simple facts of anatomy? | 09:40 |
| Rabbit | Philosophy doesn't work in a vacuum. If anatomy provides an answer to a philosophical conundrum, then that's great. | 09:42 |
| Rabbit | Also, I don't think that the knowledge-that/knowledge-how distinction is a philosophical conundrum. It's just useful terminology to clarify what one's talking about. | 09:44 |
| kanzure | k | 09:45 |
| * fenn is bumbling through the wikipedia entry for epistemology | 09:46 | |
| fenn | i dont really see how people can take these seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criteria_of_truth | 09:49 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_epistemology | 09:49 |
| marainein | epistemology is not universal? what's the difference between eastern and non-eastern? | 09:49 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-epistemology#The_Scope_of_Meta-Epistemology.2C_including_a_Paradox paradox of self-study hehe | 09:50 |
| kanzure | marainein: historical developments | 09:50 |
| Rabbit | The introduction alone on that criteria of truth page makes me want to curl up into a ball and die. | 09:50 |
| marainein | what's wrong with it, briefly? | 09:51 |
| Rabbit | It's poorly written and it abuses basic technical terminology. Only arguments (or inferences) are valid or invalid (not criteria). | 09:53 |
| Rabbit | "The rules of logic have no ability to distinguish truth on their own." This is misleading. You can derive at least some of mathematics from minimal logical principles. Also, there're multiple kinds of logic, so the claim's too vague. | 09:55 |
| kanzure | where's nsh when you need him? | 09:56 |
| * Rabbit doesn't feel like reading any more poorly written philosophy than she has to. | 09:56 | |
| marainein | :) | 09:56 |
| marainein | kanzure: who's nsh? | 09:56 |
| kanzure | markov bot | 09:56 |
| nsh | such a folksy and charming way no-one cares. you can't tell than to say that socrates posed the question | 09:59 |
| kanzure | hurray, the bot is awake :) | 10:03 |
| * kanzure needs to sleep, actually | 10:03 | |
| marainein | goodnight | 10:04 |
| kanzure | hm, how'd it get so late? | 10:04 |
| Rabbit | I have to go too. Time to get back to work. | 10:04 |
| Rabbit | Thanks for letting me sit in. | 10:05 |
| marainein | is that a metaphysical question? | 10:05 |
| marainein | ok | 10:05 |
| marainein | later rabbit, sorry we couldn't entertain you more | 10:05 |
| marainein | maybe you'll come back and discuss the ethics of life extension? | 10:05 |
| fenn | arent the ethics of life extension equal and opposite to the ethics of life reduction? | 10:06 |
| marainein | fenn: strangely, not everyone sees it that way | 10:06 |
| Nofaris | Why is that? | 10:06 |
| fenn | are you sure? perhaps they are advocates of life reduction and simply forgot to mention | 10:07 |
| marainein | for instance, some of the people in that link i posted | 10:07 |
| marainein | Nofaris: discovering why that is is one of my major motivations in talking to this stuff with rabbit, and anyone else i can find who opposes it | 10:08 |
| Nofaris | Rabbit stood on such shaky ground last time she opposed it | 10:08 |
| fenn | arguing ethics is generally difficult because nobody's right | 10:10 |
| marainein | yeah, and she has some unusual beliefs...we need other people to debate this with | 10:10 |
| Nofaris | I don't see the point of debating it, since opposing it boils down to supporting life reduction | 10:10 |
| marainein | fenn: sometimes people have positions based on misunderstanding | 10:10 |
| Nofaris | and that position really isn't that defendable | 10:10 |
| marainein | or on no good reason | 10:11 |
| fenn | Nofaris: tell that to VHEMT | 10:11 |
| * marainein nods | 10:11 | |
| Nofaris | Who is VHEMT? | 10:11 |
| Nofaris | Sounds like a scary acronym | 10:11 |
| fenn | yes that's on purpose | 10:11 |
| Nofaris | fenn: tell me a little about yourself | 10:11 |
| Nofaris | age/what you do | 10:11 |
| fenn | 26 hermit | 10:12 |
| Nofaris | What makes you a hermit? | 10:13 |
| marainein | did you inherit the profession from your parents? | 10:13 |
| fenn | too smart for my own good, and i have this weird sleep disorder that precludes normal employment or social life | 10:14 |
| Nofaris | What does your sleep disorder do to you? | 10:14 |
| fenn | i stay up an hour later every day | 10:14 |
| Nofaris | :O | 10:14 |
| Nofaris | I do the same | 10:14 |
| fenn | huzzah! | 10:15 |
| Nofaris | I sometimes with the day was an hour longer | 10:15 |
| fenn | there's some notes on supermemo.com about it | 10:15 |
| Nofaris | Oh really | 10:15 |
| Nofaris | Where? | 10:15 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-wake_syndrome http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleepchart.htm | 10:16 |
| Nofaris | Thank you | 10:17 |
| fenn | also you might be interested in http://www.dbeat.com/28/ | 10:17 |
| Nofaris | Reminds me of last summer | 10:18 |
| Nofaris | when I would sleep whenever I wanted to | 10:18 |
| Nofaris | and ended up waking up within every hour of the day | 10:18 |
| Nofaris | good times | 10:18 |
| marainein | Nofaris and fenn: have you always had this problem? | 10:19 |
| Nofaris | Not sure | 10:19 |
| Nofaris | I've always had trouble falling asleep though | 10:19 |
| Nofaris | when on a schedule | 10:19 |
| Nofaris | And even when I'm not, it is sometimes hard | 10:20 |
| fenn | i think it may have started around puberty | 10:20 |
| Nofaris | I don't recall it | 10:20 |
| Nofaris | before puberty | 10:21 |
| Nofaris | hm | 10:21 |
| * marainein yawns | 10:21 | |
| Nofaris | My mother has been waking me up at the same time every day, it is kind of annoying | 10:21 |
| marainein | does she understand your problems? | 10:22 |
| Nofaris | Not sure | 10:23 |
| Nofaris | I know she has seen the symptoms of it lol | 10:23 |
| Nofaris | She has an eye for detail, but doesn't really think about those details | 10:24 |
| Nofaris | kind of annoying | 10:24 |
| fenn | so, i was thinking we could just build a new world that has a day cycle of 25 hours or so | 10:24 |
| marainein | go and live underground | 10:25 |
| marainein | or in alaska | 10:25 |
| fenn | but then 25 seemed sorta arbitrary so i got stuck on this idea of the 'metric day' or 100 kiloseconds | 10:25 |
| Nofaris | Alaska lol | 10:25 |
| fenn | which is 27.777 hours | 10:25 |
| Nofaris | That is pretty close to living underground I must say | 10:26 |
| Nofaris | Really? | 10:26 |
| Nofaris | Wow | 10:26 |
| Nofaris | that is pretty good | 10:26 |
| fenn | and then you can just use SI prefixes for various chunks of time, instead of this crazy 60 minutes to the hour stuff | 10:26 |
| Nofaris | Yeah | 10:27 |
| Nofaris | I want to see a society that uses that | 10:27 |
| fenn | i'm too lazy though, i havent tried it out yet | 10:27 |
| Nofaris | in the future | 10:27 |
| fenn | it would be very useful though because i could predict when i'll be awake in the future | 10:27 |
| fenn | (assuming my sleep cycles synchronize with when i'm awake and not some distant astronomical object) | 10:28 |
| kanzure | woohoo | 14:40 |
| kanzure | cafeteria randomly shuts down for two weeks | 14:40 |
| kanzure | this is /awesome/ | 14:40 |
| * kanzure nibbles on a pretzel | 14:40 | |
| kanzure | 'Automatic identification of informative sections of web pages.pdf' | 15:19 |
| fenn | i'd like to take a moment to transfect any willing propagators with what's been festering in my head all week: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Andrew_Bird_-_The_Trees_Were_Mistaken.mp3 | 18:20 |
| kanzure | http://www.scientificblogging.com/adaptive_complexity/evolution_as_the_recycler_of_the_cells_tools | 18:30 |
| elias` | I wonder if it'd be worth it to set up a proxy to process all data from https connections such that it either establishes a new encrypted connection to the client or returns the results in plaintext. | 19:18 |
| elias` | s/plaintext/unencrypted/ since it could be arbitrary content actually. | 19:19 |
| nsh | argh | 19:36 |
| nsh | kanzure, that article says "part 2 on <...>", and i can't find the link to part 1 | 19:37 |
| * nsh hates reading things out of order | 19:37 | |
| nsh | ok, found it | 19:37 |
| kanzure | :) | 19:39 |
| kanzure | elias`: what? | 19:39 |
| * nsh seconds that what | 19:40 | |
| elias` | being able to read the data in https connections might be useful | 19:40 |
| nsh | you mean a man-in-the-middle https proxy? | 19:40 |
| elias` | yes | 19:41 |
| nsh | ah, ok | 19:41 |
| nsh | author is an idiot | 19:44 |
| * nsh wonders what he can do to be able to read things again without thinking the author is an idiot so often | 19:45 | |
| nsh | except regress about four years | 19:45 |
| nsh | i love that people can get excited about finding a positive feedback loop and call this a great step forward in genetic biology | 19:46 |
| nsh | systems theory is almost 100 years old in biology | 19:47 |
| kanzure | yep | 19:47 |
| nsh | its essential concepts 200+ years old | 19:47 |
| nsh | the first steam engine | 19:47 |
| nsh | "The use of the centrifugal governor by James Watt in 1788 to regulate the speed of his steam engine was one factor leading to the Industrial Revolution. Steam engines also use float valves and pressure release valves as mechanical regulation devices. A mathematical analysis of Watt's governor was done by James Clerk Maxwell in 1868." | 19:49 |
| nsh | --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback | 19:49 |
| nsh | "What if evolutionary biologists were wrong to think of phenotypic variation as random and unconstrained? How much would it matter if we really understood how genetic variation leads to phenotypic variation, and in particular, how facile or difficult is it to achieve a specific phenotype?" | 19:52 |
| nsh | quote from the book in question | 19:52 |
| nsh | this is why i think scientists who use the word random should be shot on sight | 19:52 |
| kanzure | *yes* | 19:53 |
| nsh | unless you are statistician, talking about some branch of statistics, you're abusing the term; and even then, i'm suspicious | 19:53 |
| kanzure | 'random' means you'll get a cow, not a value within 1 to 100 | 19:53 |
| * nsh smiles | 19:53 | |
| nsh | [[[ | 19:54 |
| nsh | These questions get to the heart of the evolution of complexity. For example, is the mollusc lineage infinitely malleable? If webbed feet were to provide molluscs with an adaptive advantage, would natural selection be able to, after many generations, produce them? (Keep in mind that when talking about natural selection, the semantics get tricky - I don't mean to imply that natural selection works towards a focused goal like w | 19:54 |
| nsh | ]]] --These questions get to the heart of the evolution of complexity. For example, is the mollusc lineage infinitely malleable? If webbed feet were to provide molluscs with an adaptive advantage, would natural selection be able to, after many generations, produce them? (Keep in mind that when talking about natural selection, the semantics get tricky - I don't mean to imply that natural selection works towards a focused goal | 19:54 |
| nsh | bah | 19:54 |
| nsh | --http://www.scientificblogging.com/adaptive_complexity/evolution_as_the_recycler_of_the_cells_tools | 19:54 |
| nsh | thought experiment: UR DOIN IT WRONG | 19:54 |
| nsh | wtf | 19:55 |
| nsh | this guy is a postdoc | 19:55 |
| * nsh hates people | 19:55 | |
| nsh | i wonder how cryotechnics is getting along | 19:56 |
| nsh | this is clearly not the century for me | 19:56 |
| kanzure | well, we can freeze cat brains | 19:58 |
| kanzure | and get electrical activity seven years later | 19:58 |
| kanzure | but that's about it :) | 19:58 |
| kanzure | http://alcor.com/ | 19:58 |
| nsh | cat-like electrical activity? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | heh | 19:59 |
| kanzure | not sure | 19:59 |
| shobin | we're not good enough at vitrification yet | 19:59 |
| nsh | if you have to say "this probably sounds obvious" at the start of two paragraphs in a row. perhaps you need to write less obviously | 19:59 |
| nsh | s/./, | 19:59 |
| kanzure | shobin: correct | 20:00 |
| nsh | Ersty Mayr was clearly an idiot too | 20:01 |
| nsh | 1963 and he was believing in independent evolutionary lineages? pft | 20:01 |
| * nsh decides he would have learnt more from this weird anime (Paranoia agent) than reading those two columns | 20:03 | |
| kanzure | link to torrent? | 20:03 |
| kanzure | maybe it's on crunchyroll | 20:04 |
| shobin | did you guys see the discussion between Richard Dawkins and Craig Venter where Craig questions the validity of evolutionary taxonomy? | 20:05 |
| * nsh got from tpb | 20:05 | |
| nsh | i haven't, shobin; sounds interesting though. do you have a link? | 20:05 |
| shobin | http://de.sevenload.com/videos/tpFRSrY-DLD08-Day-2-Life-a-gene-centric-view | 20:07 |
| nsh | thanks | 20:07 |
| shobin | the discussion on that topic is a bit into the video, like 60-75% through | 20:07 |
| nsh | cool | 20:08 |
| * nsh suspects he'll watch it all | 20:08 | |
| nsh | that is, once he has opera restarted | 20:08 |
| nsh | it's decided it | 20:09 |
| nsh | 's only playing the first 2s of flash videos | 20:09 |
| nsh | for some inexplicable reason | 20:09 |
| nsh | wait, 4s of this one | 20:09 |
| nsh | (annoying flash adverts still work though) | 20:09 |
| shobin | I get that too | 20:10 |
| shobin | plays a few soundless seconds | 20:10 |
| * nsh wonders if anyone has written cogently on "ad blindness" | 20:10 | |
| nsh | i reckon i have it stronger than most, though pretty much all heavy internet uses must have it to a pretty great degree | 20:10 |
| * kanzure has ad blindness :) | 20:10 | |
| kanzure | yep | 20:10 |
| shobin | haven't seen ads in a while, I use adblock plus for firefox | 20:10 |
| kanzure | it's really impressive | 20:10 |
| kanzure | shobin: no, we mean naturally | 20:10 |
| nsh | i just wonder if one day i'll miss something | 20:11 |
| kanzure | right | 20:11 |
| nsh | but i buy so few things i doubt it | 20:11 |
| kanzure | I can go through about 100 results on Google in only a few minutes with very quick glances at page layout | 20:11 |
| kanzure | really helps with bullshit filtering | 20:11 |
| nsh | yeah | 20:11 |
| nsh | i wonder if you could program that knowledge into a baysian filter | 20:11 |
| shobin | ads never affected me before, it's nice not having to load them any more though | 20:12 |
| nsh | have something that records how clickly you click through a tab or page | 20:12 |
| shobin | I rarely get that flash video issue now | 20:12 |
| nsh | shobin, yeah, saves the net some bandwidth too | 20:12 |
| nsh | i think once haptic interfaces become commonplace... | 20:14 |
| nsh | the ability for people to give rapid infraconscious feedback to the internet will drastically improve | 20:14 |
| nsh | surfing, subconsciously shufflingly the various documents about, tweaking designs as you read | 20:15 |
| nsh | all fed back into the system | 20:15 |
| nsh | raise one page slightly above another because it was more pertinant to your search query | 20:15 |
| nsh | etc. | 20:15 |
| kanzure | nsh: just saw a paper on probablistic filtering of web pages for "juicy tidbits" | 20:15 |
| kanzure | or more particularly the informative parts | 20:16 |
| kanzure | combine this with some of the focused web crawling .. ;-) | 20:16 |
| * nsh saw the pdf link | 20:16 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/2008-07-31/ | 20:16 |
| nsh | (i assumed it would be reasonably fail) | 20:16 |
| nsh | 'Automatic identification of informative sections of web pages.pdf' | 20:17 |
| nsh | not in that dir | 20:17 |
| * nsh found | 20:17 | |
| nsh | another thing i've been thinking on lately | 20:18 |
| nsh | is overloading existing autonomic perceptive algorithms | 20:18 |
| nsh | like eye saccades | 20:18 |
| nsh | where the focal point momentarily rests and how it dances about the scene | 20:18 |
| kanzure | yeah? | 20:19 |
| nsh | have that overloaded as input to some computer algorithm for rating and judging some content | 20:19 |
| nsh | such that either the eye learns to scan a little differently to achieve the task | 20:19 |
| nsh | or the interpreting of the movements learns to get the right answer from the eye's movements | 20:19 |
| nsh | (probably some degree of both) | 20:20 |
| nsh | if you can analyse the underlying mathematics required for the eye to performs its natural tasks | 20:20 |
| nsh | you can then employ it as a computer by casting a problem into that mathematics | 20:20 |
| nsh | turn a football game into a protein-folding simulation | 20:21 |
| kanzure | eh, I see what you're saying.. | 20:21 |
| kanzure | eye movement has much to do with attention | 20:21 |
| nsh | right | 20:21 |
| nsh | oh, found an interesting article yesterday about measuring 'covert visual attention' | 20:21 |
| nsh | using EMG's in neck muscles | 20:21 |
| nsh | (covert attention is where you focus your 'internal' attention without moving the eyes) | 20:22 |
| nsh | so if i think about the packet of chocolate bars to the right of my screen, but still stare at the word "screen", it registers as a slight action potential in my head-turning muscles | 20:22 |
| kanzure | wtf, link? | 20:22 |
| nsh | (apparantly) | 20:22 |
| nsh | one sec | 20:22 |
| nsh | http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071202155257.htm | 20:23 |
| nsh | referencing http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n1/full/nn2023.html | 20:23 |
| nsh | (btw, have you noticed that google gives author, year, and citation information for normal search results now..) | 20:24 |
| nsh | differences in covert orienting patterns have also been correlated to schizophrenia and adhd | 20:25 |
| kanzure | yes, I have noticed | 20:25 |
| nsh | one wonders if various visualisation techniques employed by meditative traditions such as tibetan and zen buddhism might be related | 20:26 |
| nsh | to 'hacking' the attention faculties via the means of internal covert visual attention | 20:26 |
| kanzure | there's a reason why autists avoid looking at faces | 20:27 |
| nsh | to deautomatise latent inhibition of internal neuronal information | 20:27 |
| nsh | mmm | 20:27 |
| kanzure | (either it scares them or distracts them, I can't figure out which) | 20:27 |
| kanzure | but I don't know the internalized equivalent | 20:27 |
| nsh | some of both | 20:27 |
| * nsh doesn't look at faces much, but suspects it's mostly an aquired habit | 20:27 | |
| nsh | for people with whom i do, i have no particular problem | 20:27 |
| nsh | so it's probably an anxiety phenomenon | 20:28 |
| kanzure | right | 20:29 |
| kanzure | I do have a bit of a face problem actually, in the form of "oh crap give me a few seconds to remember who you are" :) so hallway encounters go poorly | 20:30 |
| * nsh smiles | 20:30 | |
| kanzure | "Hey, Bryan!" | 20:30 |
| kanzure | "Hey ... you!" | 20:30 |
| kanzure | "yeah, so what's up?" | 20:30 |
| kanzure | "Stuff." | 20:30 |
| kanzure | "Ok. Cool. See you at lunch." | 20:30 |
| nsh | possibly mild prosopagnosia? | 20:30 |
| nsh | or just memory | 20:30 |
| * nsh doesn't recall faces too well | 20:30 | |
| nsh | but if i meet someone new, i can generally recall (approximately) verbatim the first 10 or so conversations | 20:31 |
| nsh | especially if i find the person interesting | 20:31 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:31 |
| kanzure | for instance, I ran into a Michael the other day the con | 20:31 |
| kanzure | and I wouldn't have recongized him | 20:31 |
| kanzure | and of course I remember every conversation I've ever had with him, but still | 20:31 |
| kanzure | *recognized | 20:31 |
| * kanzure just got a phone call ... am getting wisdom teeth surgically removed on Friday. | 20:32 | |
| kanzure | Thursday night is quick dinner with a singularitarian-Austinite fellow, then with the IEEE guy, then off to the robotics meetup | 20:32 |
| * nsh smiles | 20:32 | |
| kanzure | http://austinbrains.org/ | 20:32 |
| * kanzure is still working on the file format / 'event tracker' idea | 20:33 | |
| nsh | hmm | 20:34 |
| * nsh watches end of anime episode | 20:34 | |
| kanzure | http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dgerman/2008midwestNKSconference/ | 21:08 |
| nsh | new kind of science? | 21:50 |
| nsh | you know | 21:50 |
| nsh | i sometimes think they'll actually achieve some important things | 21:51 |
| nsh | and it'll all be because wolfram over-hyped the hell out of his discoveries | 21:51 |
| fenn | that sounds like the sort of conference my mom would like | 21:51 |
| nsh | that's one pretty-looking place though | 21:51 |
| fenn | yep | 21:51 |
| nsh | how did i guess chaitin would talk about uncomputable real numbers and how they don't exist | 21:56 |
| nsh | that guy pissed me off sometimes | 21:57 |
| * kanzure knows of chaitin | 21:57 | |
| kanzure | he has a leibniz addiction | 21:57 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz | 21:57 |
| nsh | pity he isn't more like leibniz | 21:58 |
| kanzure | :) | 21:59 |
| nsh | i love how wikipedia has leibniz' signature | 21:59 |
| fenn | "How real are the real numbers?" is not the actual talk he'll be giving, its just a sort of 'example' i guess | 22:03 |
| nsh | it's the confirmed 'title' | 22:05 |
| nsh | maybe he'll just talk about his basic algorithmic information theory results | 22:05 |
| kanzure | he likes doing that | 22:05 |
| nsh | and try to fit them into wolfram's paradigm somehow | 22:05 |
| nsh | well, it's his 15 minutes | 22:05 |
| nsh | most people try and make theirs last as long as possible | 22:06 |
| nsh | :-) | 22:06 |
| nsh | but last talk i saw chatin give | 22:06 |
| nsh | he veered into real numbers at the end | 22:06 |
| nsh | expressing doubts about their reality | 22:07 |
| nsh | then sounded like a bit of an idiot trying to talk his way around a few questions | 22:07 |
| * nsh wasn't overwhelmed | 22:07 | |
| shobin | did you guys get a chance to see that Craig Venter evolutionary taxonomy video yet? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | no? | 22:46 |
| shobin | http://de.sevenload.com/videos/tpFRSrY-DLD08-Day-2-Life-a-gene-centric-view | 22:47 |
| biopunk | I actually saw that one a while ago | 23:04 |
| shobin | what do you think of it? | 23:04 |
| shobin | I was surprised like Dawkins | 23:04 |
| biopunk | mmm.. actually I don't remember what the topics were, I rember he and dawkins got into some discussion.. but Ican't remember about what.. I remember reading that Venter does about 200 talks a year now... a lot of them are casted. | 23:20 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
