| --- Day changed Thu Aug 21 2008 | ||
| kanzure | wonder if he was doing what I'm doing now | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | more or less | 00:00 |
| kanzure | the stealing, I mean | 00:00 |
| kanzure | but it's not really stealing | 00:00 |
| kanzure | since I do have access permissions | 00:00 |
| kanzure | oh, nevermind.. the urls are systematic | 00:03 |
| nsh | also: their mums | 00:09 |
| nsh | is my philosophy | 00:09 |
| kanzure | hm, why isn't the library on AIM? | 00:17 |
| kanzure | it was there earlier today .. | 00:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.lib.utexas.edu/indexes/titles.html?id=372 | 00:20 |
| kanzure | bah | 00:20 |
| kanzure | I think these guys are telling lies | 00:20 |
| kanzure | 'Downloading of entire journal issues or complete journal volumes in a systematic fashion is strictly prohibited.' | 00:22 |
| nsh | meh | 00:22 |
| kanzure | 'you may only download them randomly!' | 00:22 |
| kanzure | very well then | 00:22 |
| kanzure | wait, you can't prove it was random | 00:23 |
| kanzure | what the fuck | 00:23 |
| kanzure | we're boned. | 00:23 |
| kanzure | "well, I tried using a pseudo random number generator ... but if you guys have a random number generator, so that I don't systematically access it, that would be awesome." | 00:23 |
| elias` | http://www.virtualp.us/Dilbert-Oct_25_001.jpg | 00:23 |
| kanzure | :) | 00:23 |
| kanzure | interesting, | 00:25 |
| kanzure | searching for "Downloading of entire journal issues or complete journal volumes in a systematic fashion is strictly prohibited." brings up multiple results | 00:25 |
| kanzure | even a string of four characters is rarely found to appear more than once on the web | 00:25 |
| kanzure | http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Downloading+of+entire+journal+issues+or+complete+journal+volumes+in+a+systematic+fashion+is+strictly+prohibited.%22&num=100&hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=gSd&filter=0 | 00:26 |
| kanzure | 50 results | 00:26 |
| kanzure | hah | 00:26 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-08-20_irony.png | 00:34 |
| fenn | if you set your user agent to googlebot they'll never know what hit 'em | 00:40 |
| kanzure | oh fuck | 00:40 |
| kanzure | that should have been obvious | 00:41 |
| kanzure | thank you | 00:41 |
| fenn | or perhaps one of the lesser known search engines | 00:42 |
| elias` | they might do something nasty if they notice the IP is not in some expected range. | 00:42 |
| elias` | in that case | 00:42 |
| kanzure | I'm a sekrit google project | 00:43 |
| kanzure | where googlebot is on a university dorm computer | 00:44 |
| kanzure | called backrub | 00:44 |
| kanzure | (2008-08-20 19:49:23) nchaimov: I like the IEEE license, which adds "The use of robots or intelligent agents on this site is a violation of your subscription license agreement" | 00:45 |
| kanzure | http://www3.ntu.edu.sg/lib/collections/db/AAY-2391use.htm | 00:45 |
| kanzure | this is ridiculous | 00:46 |
| kanzure | "I'm not downloading it, I'm caching it" | 00:48 |
| kanzure | "DNS architecture foo" | 00:49 |
| kanzure | fenn, I always thought that webmasters were smart enough to check for the user agent being google /and/ for it to be the ip range that google uses | 01:05 |
| nsh | one day... | 01:07 |
| nsh | there'll be enough bandwidth and cheap storage | 01:07 |
| kanzure | to download the internet? | 01:07 |
| kanzure | google's been doing it, nsh | 01:07 |
| nsh | that somehow, all of google's data, is going to accidentally end up on the web | 01:07 |
| kanzure | hm | 01:08 |
| shobin | what are you doing bryan? | 01:08 |
| nsh | there are sleeper cells of information liberation in all quarters | 01:08 |
| nsh | most don't even know that they are. | 01:08 |
| kanzure | shobin: http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/ | 01:08 |
| kanzure | oh, | 01:09 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-08-17_gdmap.png | 01:09 |
| kanzure | the pink stuff to the left of the yellow outlined square. All of that pink stuff is Nature. | 01:10 |
| shobin | how do you set your user agent to the google bot? | 01:10 |
| kanzure | wget --help | grep agent | 01:10 |
| shobin | very decent image to text conversion | 01:11 |
| shobin | I have most of the 2600 magazines scanned in pdf form, I should run that app on them | 01:12 |
| shobin | lawl nevermind, it's pretty bad | 01:13 |
| kanzure | :) | 01:13 |
| shobin | speaking of which | 01:13 |
| shobin | google has speech to text software now | 01:13 |
| kanzure | I'm looking into some page segmentation algorithms | 01:14 |
| kanzure | they've had that for a while | 01:14 |
| kanzure | call them with your cell phone | 01:14 |
| shobin | it's up now | 01:14 |
| kanzure | and they do searches for you. | 01:14 |
| kanzure | oh | 01:14 |
| shobin | on the youtube candidate channels | 01:14 |
| shobin | yeah I use goog-411 | 01:14 |
| shobin | it's good for them, parse through videos with their existing technologies | 01:15 |
| kanzure | you know, | 01:15 |
| kanzure | how many keys are on a cell phone these days, no more than 12 right? | 01:15 |
| kanzure | that should be doable with brain implant tech .. | 01:15 |
| kanzure | esp. re: the man who could control a cursor "with the power of his mind" | 01:15 |
| shobin | i have 19, but no more than 14 should be necessary | 01:15 |
| kanzure | right | 01:16 |
| kanzure | then do a HUD | 01:16 |
| kanzure | and the typical ear mount and speaker mount | 01:16 |
| kanzure | this shouldn't be hard.. | 01:16 |
| shobin | yeah | 01:16 |
| shobin | given everything people have done it should be pretty straightforward | 01:17 |
| shobin | it would be neat to see | 01:17 |
| kanzure | oh, speaking of which | 01:17 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html | 01:17 |
| kanzure | I need some electricity gurus to help me figure out how to check feasability requirements on all of this | 01:18 |
| kanzure | I was thinking of just ordering a pcb and handmake the electrodes as described in those documents | 01:18 |
| kanzure | do we have any electricity buff in here? | 01:18 |
| shobin | do you know anything about EEGs bryan? | 01:20 |
| kanzure | Not much. | 01:20 |
| kanzure | I avoid them really | 01:20 |
| kanzure | bkero was thinking of doing some EKG methinks | 01:20 |
| shobin | I've wanted one | 01:20 |
| shobin | too expensive though | 01:20 |
| kanzure | did you see openeeg? | 01:20 |
| shobin | yes | 01:20 |
| kanzure | even the soundcard was too much? | 01:20 |
| shobin | it seemed messy | 01:21 |
| elias` | I'm currently thinking of trying out the emotiv headset whenever they begin selling them | 01:22 |
| shobin | that had a hell of a debut eh? | 01:23 |
| shobin | still, I'm hopeful it'll be good | 01:23 |
| kanzure | bah, that eeg headset? | 01:24 |
| elias` | not sure what they were called, but something that is able to read/predict what you're saying inaudibly (subvocally?) would probably be nice to have too. | 01:24 |
| * kanzure once saw a paper about browsers and subvocalization | 01:25 | |
| kanzure | http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-010808-102024/unrestricted/IQP_Ceccarini.pdf | 01:28 |
| kanzure | that might have been it | 01:28 |
| kanzure | 'Web Browser Control Using EMG Based Sub Vocal Speech Recognition' | 01:28 |
| kanzure | http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/9518/30166/01385845.pdf | 01:28 |
| kanzure | I wonder how loud you have to talk. | 01:31 |
| nsh | oh cool | 01:32 |
| nsh | i don't think you have to make any actual noise | 01:32 |
| kanzure | 'Specifically, we use non invasive aggregate surface | 01:32 |
| kanzure | measurements of electromyographic signals or EMGs to | 01:32 |
| kanzure | categorize muscle activation prior to sound generation [3]. | 01:32 |
| kanzure | Such signals arise when reading or speaking to oneself with or | 01:32 |
| kanzure | without actual lip or facial movements. Hence the information | 01:32 |
| kanzure | we are using does not show up using external observation, nor | 01:32 |
| nsh | just "rehearsal speech" | 01:32 |
| kanzure | in current methods used to enhance speech recognition, such | 01:32 |
| kanzure | as machine lip reading. | 01:32 |
| kanzure | ' | 01:32 |
| kanzure | yeah | 01:32 |
| kanzure | awesome | 01:32 |
| nsh | it's a cool technology | 01:32 |
| nsh | i'm waiting for the telepathy app. | 01:32 |
| nsh | there's already some proof of concept | 01:32 |
| kanzure | ' in previous work we showed the adequacy of EMG signals for the control of a virtual joystick and virtual numeric keypad entry [2]. In [1] we demonstrated recognition of a small sub acoustic control vocabulary.' | 01:33 |
| nsh | http://gburt.blogspot.com/2008/03/subvocalization.html | 01:33 |
| kanzure | I wonder how quick speech synthesizers are | 01:35 |
| nsh | that demo looked a bit fishy | 01:35 |
| nsh | took 10 seconds to say "yeah definitely" | 01:35 |
| kanzure | "Little work testing the ability of EMG to perform speech recognition by itself appears to have been done. Parallel work for speech recognition augmentation along the lines of that in our word experiments was performed by Chan [8]. He proposed supplementing voiced speech with EMG in the context of aircraft pilot communication. In their work they studied the feasibility of augmenting auditory speech information with EMG signals recorded from primary fa | 01:36 |
| kanzure | face reading, anyone? | 01:36 |
| kanzure | a game where you have to smile :) | 01:36 |
| kanzure | using separate cheeks for separate controls | 01:37 |
| nsh | microgesture human-computer interface? | 01:37 |
| kanzure | right | 01:37 |
| nsh | what was vinge's last book | 01:37 |
| nsh | rainbows end? | 01:37 |
| kanzure | reading rainbow or something | 01:37 |
| nsh | that sorta thing | 01:37 |
| kanzure | yeah | 01:37 |
| nsh | it's funny | 01:37 |
| kanzure | they say that people with asperger's can't decode nonverbal signals | 01:38 |
| nsh | you ever read the foundation books? | 01:38 |
| nsh | asimove | 01:38 |
| kanzure | yes | 01:38 |
| nsh | the second foundation were "telepathic" | 01:38 |
| kanzure | so if they can't decode them, then let's just measure them excessively | 01:38 |
| nsh | in the sense that they had microgesturing down to a fine art | 01:38 |
| kanzure | same with Zindell and the ascetics | 01:38 |
| nsh | oh? | 01:38 |
| nsh | another sci-fi? | 01:38 |
| kanzure | 'As a master cetic might, I tried to read the truth from the flickers of light reflecting from her bright irises and from the set of her wide mouth. But the only truth that came to me was an old truth: I could no more read her face than I could descry the future.' | 01:39 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell,%20David%20-%20Neverness%20(v1.0).txt | 01:39 |
| nsh | Neverness? | 01:39 |
| nsh | ah yeah | 01:39 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/quotes.html#Posthuman <-- quotes. | 01:39 |
| nsh | i think i started reading this | 01:40 |
| nsh | from your server | 01:40 |
| nsh | but got distracted and forgot about it | 01:40 |
| kanzure | 'Although I was no cetic, it seemed they were in danger of copying, and perhaps running, each other's programs. Such was the danger of sharing the pit of a lightship-if one could believe the warnings of the cetics and the programmers. So far as I knew, no two pilots had ever faced the same thoughtspace at the same time. When I hinted of this danger, and hinted of my worry, Justine smoothed the folds of her robe, straightened her back stiffly, and told | 01:41 |
| kanzure | 'He must have taken this as a sign of encouragement for he continued, "Once a time on Urradeth there was a cetic who had a great flock of sheep. But the cetic was very busy fashioning metaprograms which he hoped would control his own baser, more mundane programs. Consequently, he had little time to tend his flock. Often they wandered off into the forest or stumbled into snowdrifts, and worse, they ran away because they knew that the cetic wanted their | 01:42 |
| * nsh smiles | 01:43 | |
| kanzure | "The cetic, after much hard work finally decoded his death program, or, I should say, his fear-of-death program. He purged it from his brain, from his very neurons. And there are many poems written of this-the cetic discovered that it is the fear of death which enslaves us. You might say the dread of the dying self sends us stumbling blindly about our daily tasks as if we are nothing but sleepwalking robots programmed to feed and drink and copulate. F | 01:45 |
| kanzure | 'Her eye twitched then, and I saw what I should have seen long ago: My mother was addicted to toalache-the facial tics were the result of her hiding this shame from her friends, and from herself. I saw other things, too, other programs: The layers of fat girdling her hips, which betrayed her compulsive eating programs and love of chocolate drinks and candies; her arrogant speech patterns, the clipped sentence fragments hinting at her belief that other | 01:50 |
| kanzure | Anyway, I doubt we could get down to that specialized an art ;-) | 01:50 |
| kanzure | with emg | 01:50 |
| bkero | shobin: I'm looking into doing some EKG and EEG things. | 02:09 |
| ybit | anyone know if the openstim project is elite? | 02:10 |
| ybit | i don't want to waste my time sending them an email so that i can register on the site | 02:11 |
| kanzure | don't bother | 02:18 |
| kanzure | I know everybody active on that project | 02:18 |
| kanzure | it's Superkuh and Ed Boyden. | 02:18 |
| kanzure | good luck. | 02:18 |
| kanzure | http://edboyden.org/ | 02:18 |
| kanzure | http://superkuh.ath.cx/ | 02:18 |
| ybit | i already bothered | 02:26 |
| ybit | it says it is open to all, we'll see | 02:26 |
| ybit | i know you all have seen this before, i have atleast, but it's still cool: http://www.auvsi.org/competitions/water.cfm | 02:31 |
| kanzure | http://books.google.com/books?id=pUhIQlp6EAwC&pg=PA129&dq=%22David+Zindell%22&ei=PtWsSIbgFqXayAS_zp2ABw&client=opera&sig=ACfU3U0v_FgDzr6-KjFIJCgPrAMPQ8dWHw <-- hah | 02:41 |
| marainein | where's the hah? | 02:42 |
| kanzure | The name of the book is "Future on Ice" | 02:42 |
| kanzure | his short story was in the context of a city on ice | 02:42 |
| kanzure | So, naturally, he would be skeptical. | 02:42 |
| kanzure | Oh crap. ScienceDirect has an HTML validation error. | 05:30 |
| kanzure | name="rememberid"id="rememberMe" | 05:30 |
| ybit | are you extracting all the articles from the site? | 05:33 |
| ybit | i fully support you, just curious how much hdd space that will consume | 05:35 |
| kanzure | Nature was 40 GB. | 05:38 |
| kanzure | and that was probably only half of Nature really | 05:38 |
| ybit | heh, i didn't realize you had already grabbed Nature | 05:39 |
| kanzure | Nature grabbed me. | 05:43 |
| ybit | good one | 05:44 |
| ybit | joking with you of course | 05:50 |
| ybit | what modules did you use? | 05:50 |
| kanzure | WWW::Mechanize ? | 05:53 |
| kanzure | what are you asking? | 05:54 |
| ybit | you answered, i was just curious | 05:56 |
| kanzure | I don't know what you mean by modules though. | 06:01 |
| ybit | python has modules, i was curious if you were using urllib, and you are | 06:03 |
| ybit | urllib2* | 06:03 |
| ybit | urllib would be considered a module, not sure what else to call them atm | 06:04 |
| kanzure | huh, this is peculiar | 06:50 |
| kanzure | the number earlier was 1998 | 06:50 |
| kanzure | now it's 1997 journals | 06:50 |
| kanzure | hrm | 06:50 |
| bkero | lolperl | 09:25 |
| kanzure | ? | 09:28 |
| * bkero shrugs | 09:30 | |
| bkero | Sleep deprivation | 09:35 |
| kanzure | Sleep is for the weak. | 09:37 |
| kanzure | And women. | 09:37 |
| bkero | http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2934761 | 09:38 |
| bkero | My brain stem needs 15 minutes of rest per night. | 09:39 |
| bkero | The rest is just to fight muscle fatigue. | 09:39 |
| kanzure | Explain to me somethingawful. | 09:39 |
| kanzure | I think I missed that duckwagon ... even though I was around at the right time (2001?) | 09:39 |
| bkero | It's a bunch of internet 1.0 people who are cycinal of the rest of the internet. | 09:49 |
| kanzure | neat | 09:49 |
| kanzure | sounds like surfraw | 09:49 |
| bkero | Sort of | 09:52 |
| bkero | Less unixy though | 09:52 |
| nsh | what's kickin'? | 20:01 |
| nsh | *yawns* | 20:01 |
| kanzure | http://www.livescribe.com/smartpen/techspecs.html | 20:24 |
| kanzure | from Kurt, the NJ contact. | 20:24 |
| kanzure | how is this 'searchable' ? | 20:25 |
| nsh | mmm | 20:42 |
| nsh | watching that Dawkins Ventor discussion | 20:42 |
| nsh | Dawkins is saying the chromosome is pure information | 20:43 |
| nsh | "it's more than just saying you can pick up a chromosome and put it somewhere else: it's pure information, you could put it in a book, send it over the internet. you could put it on a magnetic disc and in a thousand years and then with the technology they'll have then, it will be possible to reconstruct whatever living organism that was here now" | 20:44 |
| nsh | WRONG | 20:44 |
| nsh | i hate it when the leading scientists in a field of academic endeavour are so painfully wrong | 20:45 |
| kanzure | you refer to the lack of phenotypic preservation? | 20:46 |
| kanzure | and the fact that you don't have the cell membranes and so on ? | 20:46 |
| kanzure | I mean, surely the repair mechanisms would be enough to work off of | 20:46 |
| kanzure | 'surely' <-- nevermind | 20:47 |
| nsh | the repair mechanisms of *what*? | 20:47 |
| nsh | letters in a book | 20:47 |
| nsh | patterns of magnetism on a cdrom? | 20:47 |
| nsh | you still need an organism to do anything with dna | 20:47 |
| nsh | in trashing the opening quotation | 20:47 |
| nsh | dawkins has neglected to admit that it is still an accurate set of statements | 20:48 |
| nsh | despite being misinformed | 20:48 |
| kanzure | theoretically you don't need an entire organism because of evolution | 20:48 |
| kanzure | but I bet Dawkins isn't thinking about this | 20:48 |
| nsh | not sure i understand what you mean, kanz | 20:49 |
| nsh | my point was the dna is meaningless until it is interpreted | 20:50 |
| nsh | it is the coupling of the digital data with the complexity of the interpreting environment that produces the final product | 20:50 |
| kanzure | my point is that if you are in the future and you have cow dna and you don't have a cow, you could theoretically repeat the evolutionary steps to get back to a cow | 20:50 |
| nsh | well, i would suppose it'd depend on what cow-analogues you did have | 20:51 |
| kanzure | no, assume you have nothing analogous to a cow | 20:51 |
| kanzure | I'm talking about redoing the RNA world from scratch ;-) | 20:51 |
| nsh | oh, no. | 20:51 |
| kanzure | and the Urey-Grey/Miller thingy experiments etc. | 20:51 |
| kanzure | yeah | 20:51 |
| kanzure | it'd suck | 20:51 |
| nsh | you couldn't make a cow. | 20:51 |
| kanzure | nature did it once before | 20:51 |
| kanzure | Dawkins isn't thinking about this of course | 20:51 |
| nsh | there are billions and billions of things that were 'incidental' in making a cow | 20:51 |
| kanzure | true | 20:51 |
| nsh | the same outcome would not occur twice | 20:52 |
| nsh | maybe for very simple organisms | 20:52 |
| nsh | but it's like the first fractals | 20:52 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:52 |
| nsh | mandelbrot noticed that the results of certain nonlinear calculations were different on different machines | 20:52 |
| nsh | sometimes different on the same machine at different times | 20:52 |
| nsh | he was like: WTF | 20:52 |
| nsh | then he realised sensitive dependence on initial conditions | 20:52 |
| nsh | small differences get blown up because the system feeds back into itself information | 20:53 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:53 |
| fenn | i thought you were going to go on about the Kit gene, but then you took a stupid turn | 21:04 |
| fenn | of course you need a tape reader | 21:04 |
| fenn | of course you need a printer | 21:04 |
| fenn | pure information doesn't do anything, so how does the fact that DNA doesn't do (much) anything make it not pure information? | 21:05 |
| kanzure | heybryan.org/sciencedirect_alerts.html <-- masochism | 21:42 |
| nsh | Kit gene, fenn? | 21:45 |
| kanzure | 50 bucks to whoever can figure out the md5 encoding scheme on sciencedirect. | 21:46 |
| nsh | for their pdf names? | 21:48 |
| kanzure | Look at all of their URLs. They always have an md5 variable in them. This variable is required or else the link fails. | 21:49 |
| nsh | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6TBX-4HHWWG7-1-3&_cdi=5154&_user=10&_orig=search&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_sk=999689996&view=c&wchp=dGLzVlz-zSkzk&md5=937c41165fa1c3e34e1ed1ce46ff586c&ie=/sdarticle.pdf | 21:49 |
| nsh | hmm | 21:49 |
| nsh | pretty nontrivial task to guess | 21:50 |
| nsh | impossible if they're using a seed | 21:50 |
| nsh | *salt | 21:50 |
| kanzure | right | 21:50 |
| kanzure | They're generating one for each link though | 21:50 |
| kanzure | and it seems that these md5 sums work over the years | 21:51 |
| * nsh nods | 21:51 | |
| kanzure | i.e., Google search results from 2005 still work | 21:51 |
| kanzure | so I doubt they are storing all of the md5s they hand out | 21:51 |
| kanzure | instead they're regenerating them | 21:51 |
| nsh | they probably take some concatenation of the title and author and date | 21:51 |
| nsh | and maybe some other fixed secret string | 21:51 |
| kanzure | maybe | 21:51 |
| kanzure | but they use these md5 strings for non-article related pages as well | 21:51 |
| nsh | hrm | 21:51 |
| kanzure | I could just search for the md5 string they give for the links or something, but this makes for a ridiculous amount of downloading of similar pages that really shouldn't matter all that much | 21:52 |
| nsh | that just seems... unnecessarily obfuscational | 21:52 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:52 |
| * nsh hates sciencedirect | 21:52 | |
| nsh | someone should hax them bad | 21:52 |
| * nsh wishes he still had friends who had friends who had 0days | 21:53 | |
| kanzure | I'm amazed that this bullshit isn't out on torrents yet | 21:54 |
| kanzure | this md5 system is really sucking | 21:55 |
| nsh | yeah | 21:55 |
| willPow3r | who uses torrents any more? | 22:01 |
| willPow3r | usenet is where it's at | 22:01 |
| nsh | free reliable usenet server? | 22:05 |
| nsh | (and comprehensive) | 22:05 |
| bkero | Usenet is so 1980s. | 22:07 |
| kanzure | I've never used a newsreader. | 22:07 |
| * kanzure should give up his geekbadge | 22:08 | |
| bkero | You're fired. | 22:08 |
| bkero | You've screwed up too many times, cost the department too much money. | 22:09 |
| bkero | I want your gun and your badge. | 22:09 |
| bkero | You're off the case. | 22:09 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:13 |
| kanzure | according to #md5crack, sciencedirect's md5 hash sums are not valid md5 hash sums | 22:13 |
| nsh | why do you want to be able to create them again? | 22:19 |
| nsh | to avoid downloading linking pages and extracting them? | 22:19 |
| nsh | the latter seems like the path of least resistance | 22:20 |
| nsh | where would you get a url from except a linking page anyway? | 22:20 |
| kanzure | the urls follow a pattern | 22:21 |
| kanzure | if I don't need the md5s, then I don't have to download every single page | 22:21 |
| kanzure | I could just skip to the pages that list the pdfs | 22:21 |
| nsh | what i mean is | 22:21 |
| nsh | where are you getting the information for the final urls (past the pages you want to skip) ? | 22:22 |
| nsh | what's telling you where you want to end up? | 22:22 |
| nsh | wouldn't the page listing the pdfs be dynamically generated from a POST request? | 22:23 |
| kanzure | requiring an MD5 ... | 22:23 |
| nsh | mm | 22:23 |
| kanzure | that I don't have .. | 22:23 |
| nsh | rightright | 22:23 |
| kanzure | (in the POST) | 22:23 |
| * nsh nods | 22:23 | |
| nsh | but i don't understand that's in between... | 22:24 |
| nsh | *what | 22:24 |
| kanzure | eh | 22:24 |
| kanzure | the md5 is differnet for each volume | 22:24 |
| kanzure | and each edition | 22:24 |
| nsh | give example pls | 22:24 |
| kanzure | and each journal | 22:24 |
| nsh | ok | 22:24 |
| kanzure | ok, give me a sec to get an example | 22:24 |
| kanzure | I'm fighting Gogeta | 22:24 |
| nsh | that's still a whole lot less requests than you'd end up doing for the pdfs themselves | 22:24 |
| nsh | assuming bandwidth isn't an issue | 22:25 |
| nsh | it all seems a bit unnecessaary to avoid crawling | 22:25 |
| kanzure | it's hard to explain, but basically it's annoying that I have to extract the md5 sum from each page | 22:29 |
| kanzure | as opposed to just bruteforcing and trudging through each of the links on my own | 22:29 |
| kanzure | it's just annoying, that's all | 22:29 |
| kanzure | and I'm hungry. I should probably go eat. | 22:29 |
| kanzure | oh, wait | 22:30 |
| nsh | mm | 22:31 |
| kanzure | Hah! "Previous vol/iss " | 22:42 |
| kanzure | what a wonderful link | 22:42 |
| kanzure | problems solved. | 22:42 |
| nsh | ah, awesome | 22:43 |
| nsh | ugh | 22:44 |
| nsh | ventor is an idiot | 22:44 |
| nsh | yes, we're going to grafiti all over genomes leaving little "hi mum" and "this organism brought to you by ibm and nike trainers" | 22:44 |
| nsh | messages | 22:44 |
| nsh | NO, DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY | 22:45 |
| nsh | "First, our studies provide convincing evidence that the genome is pervasively transcribed, such that the majority of its bases can be found in primary transcripts, including non-protein-coding transcripts, and those that extensively overlap one another. " | 22:47 |
| nsh | junk dna does *not* exist | 22:47 |
| Phreedom | nsh: someone's junk is somebody else's treasure? ;) | 22:48 |
| bkero | Then what are Exons? :P | 22:48 |
| nsh | Introns | 22:49 |
| nsh | they're stuff we don't know wot dat it dus yet | 22:49 |
| bkero | Or vestigial? | 22:50 |
| nsh | vestigial doesn't really work on the gene scale | 22:50 |
| nsh | it's more like "backup" | 22:50 |
| nsh | you could say that all the skills i learnt at school that haven't used this week are vestigial | 22:50 |
| bkero | Then what about retroviruses? | 22:50 |
| nsh | you mean that they serve no purpose for the organism? | 22:51 |
| bkero | sure | 22:51 |
| nsh | everything in DNA does *something* | 22:51 |
| nsh | and not very much of it is for the same end | 22:51 |
| nsh | in fact, i'd venture that the stuff that is cooperative is so only incidentally, and begrundingly | 22:52 |
| nsh | *udgingly | 22:52 |
| nsh | it's like a society | 22:52 |
| bkero | But if a retrovirus sneaks itself into our genome, sometimes it won't do anything until it's activated by something else. | 22:52 |
| nsh | who goes to work to keep the economy going? no-one, you go to work to get a wage, etc. | 22:53 |
| nsh | oh right | 22:53 |
| nsh | sure there's dormancy | 22:53 |
| nsh | but it's not final | 22:53 |
| nsh | so i guess you could use some steganography | 22:53 |
| bkero | It could be if there's nothing to activate it anymore. | 22:53 |
| nsh | nah, there's loads of mechanisms whereby partial information could be reincorporated | 22:53 |
| nsh | 'random' recombination, transcription errors, etc. | 22:54 |
| nsh | there's no black hole for information in biological systems | 22:54 |
| nsh | is what i'm trying to get across | 22:54 |
| nsh | it's very hard to lose information on such a basic level | 22:55 |
| bkero | You're saying that everything in a genome does something. | 22:55 |
| * nsh nods | 22:55 | |
| nsh | it's like physics, there's no microscopic variable that doesn't input back into the system | 22:55 |
| bkero | What about if some horizontal transfer takes place and cuts off part of the genome? | 22:56 |
| nsh | gene level extinction? | 22:56 |
| nsh | sure, that must happen, have happened a lot | 22:56 |
| nsh | depending on the degree of redundancy | 22:56 |
| nsh | i mean, things must be selected against | 22:56 |
| nsh | for things to be selected for | 22:56 |
| nsh | but then you still can't permanently mark anything genomically | 22:57 |
| bkero | But what if the transfer only cut off a part of the genome, and did so in more than 1 host? | 22:57 |
| nsh | not sure i follow, sorry | 22:57 |
| bkero | Essentially a 10: GOTO 30; 20: DO_SHIT; 30: DO_MORE_SHIT; | 22:58 |
| nsh | ok, but that's a static piece of code | 22:58 |
| nsh | if there are other bits of code that are fucking around with that code | 22:58 |
| nsh | then 20 will get/may get unskipped at some point | 22:59 |
| nsh | perhaps is asymptopically likely to | 22:59 |
| nsh | *totically | 22:59 |
| bkero | Heh, I've got a meeting to go to. I get what you're saying. | 23:00 |
| * nsh nods | 23:00 | |
| nsh | enjoy meeting! (fat chance ;-) | 23:00 |
| bkero | 1:1 meeting with boss | 23:00 |
| * bkero should take some biology/microbio/genomics classes | 23:00 | |
| * nsh should take some * classes | 23:01 | |
| nsh | meh | 23:02 |
| nsh | they're both not doing well at this argument (dawkins and venter) | 23:02 |
| nsh | but i think venter is right | 23:02 |
| nsh | virally introduced genes could easily (i would say must) have been appropriated into (for example) mammalian biochemical pathways | 23:03 |
| nsh | making it much more difficult to give tree (acyclic directed graph) taxonomic structure to gene evolution | 23:03 |
| nsh | i would say that the evolutionary path of genes in multiply connected and to a certain degree re-entrant | 23:04 |
| nsh | *is | 23:04 |
| nsh | (certain degree because genes {we reasonably safely} assume can't travel back in time and be incorporated into organisms no longer extant) | 23:04 |
| nsh | s/{we /we { | 23:04 |
| nsh | / | 23:04 |
| * bkero hasn't taken any science classes in 5 years. | 23:06 | |
| * bkero needs to SCIENCE more. | 23:07 | |
| nsh | yay SCIENCE!! | 23:09 |
| * bkero is a comptuer science major and the only biology information he has was gleaned off of random things. | 23:12 | |
| * bkero is haxing himself some neuroscience though. | 23:12 | |
| nsh | computer science and neuroscience has been 'on the cusp' of convergence for ever now, so i guess it's a good combination of things to know about | 23:14 |
| nsh | personally, i'm dubious | 23:14 |
| bkero | Fucking with brains is dangerous. | 23:14 |
| nsh | but that's because i'm an olympic standard cynic | 23:14 |
| bkero | And irreversible. | 23:14 |
| * nsh nods | 23:14 | |
| nsh | quite | 23:14 |
| nsh | and i don't think our model of computatation is sophisticated enough to even begin understanding or modelling neurology computationally | 23:15 |
| bkero | I'm a cynic when it comes to things reaching me. | 23:15 |
| nsh | i don't think we even have the math yet | 23:15 |
| bkero | Or things materializing. | 23:15 |
| * nsh smiles | 23:15 | |
| bkero | I also argue points for sides I'm completely against/don't think is true simply for the sake of hardening the other sides arguments. ;) | 23:16 |
| bkero | See: earlier about the exons. | 23:16 |
| bkero | Is more research done to find data behind a reason, or a reason behind data? | 23:17 |
| fenn | nsh see (first google result) | 23:17 |
| fenn | http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/288/mutant-mice-challenge-heredity-laws | 23:17 |
| fenn | what's venter arguing? that horizontal gene transfer is real? of course it's real, we do it all the time | 23:19 |
| nsh | dawkins said that transgenics runs the risk of making molecular taxonomical classification of genes intractable for future scientists | 23:40 |
| nsh | venter said that we were quite unlikely to shift more genes around than already occurs naturally | 23:40 |
| nsh | and dawkins seemed to think that horizonal gene transfer was actually quite rare | 23:40 |
| nsh | and that the evolutionary history of most genes is by descent | 23:41 |
| nsh | dawkins writes about the argument here, it seems: http://richarddawkins.net/article,2287,DLD08---Life-a-gene-centric-view,Richard-Dawkins-Craig-Venter | 23:42 |
| nsh | (haven't read yet) | 23:42 |
| nsh | oh no | 23:43 |
| nsh | just random internewbs discussing it | 23:43 |
| nsh | [[[ | 23:49 |
| nsh | But now, Ouzounis and his team of researchers have discovered that microbes can do this on a horizontal level, passing on the genes that can lead to antibiotic resistance, for example. By using a method called GeneTrace, a technique developed by Victor Kunin, the team observed more than 600,000 vertical transfers, coupled with 90,000 gene loss events and approximately 40,000 horizontal gene transfers. | 23:49 |
| nsh | This does not mean that the ‘tree’ becomes conceptually redundant, as it forms the framework or skeleton for Ouzounis and his team’s research. It just makes it far more complicated than was previously thought. “We used these trees as the scaffold of the net, on which we looked for the evidence of horizontally transferred genes," explains Kunin, previously a PhD student in Christos Ouzounis's group. | 23:49 |
| nsh | ]]] - http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/gene_transfer_wrong.shtml | 23:49 |
| nsh | good analogy | 23:49 |
| kanzure | screw computational modelling of brains | 23:51 |
| kanzure | I don't need mind uploading and neither do you | 23:51 |
| Phreedom | you have nothing to upload? ;P | 23:52 |
| Phreedom | modelling is very useful for many tasks... not sure about mind uploading though | 23:53 |
| kanzure | yeah, nothing left to upload .. i've been out of my mind since the beginning | 23:53 |
| kanzure | get with the program | 23:53 |
| kanzure | something like that. | 23:53 |
| * kanzure goes to hunt for food | 23:54 | |
| * bkero also hunts for food. | 23:58 | |
| * bkero stabs kanzure and puts him over a fire. | 23:58 | |
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