| --- Day changed Thu Oct 16 2008 | ||
| kanzure | Collis is fun. He fits right in with the openmanufacturing crowd. | 00:28 |
|---|---|---|
| drazak | I don't know how into openmanufacturing I am | 00:50 |
| drazak | I think there's a place for it | 00:50 |
| drazak | but I think there's a place for commercial manufacturing | 00:50 |
| kanzure | One sec. Two distinctions to make. | 00:50 |
| kanzure | drazak: Re: 'improvement', our conversation from the other day, what do you think of the concept of 'self-creation'? Creation as in, making, doing, becoming, manufacturing, building. | 00:50 |
| drazak | I thin people should do more ofthat | 00:51 |
| drazak | but we can't make cand create everything ourselves | 00:51 |
| kanzure | Secondly, commercial as in what -- money? Why money, why not rubies? Why not {insert some silly concept here}? There's some ideas floating around on that mailing list about 'post-scarcity economics' -- agalmics and such. Have you read the algamics essay? | 00:51 |
| kanzure | drazak: If people aren't making everything, then who is? God? | 00:51 |
| drazak | no, I haven't | 00:51 |
| kanzure | hrm | 00:51 |
| kanzure | drazak: | 00:52 |
| kanzure | erm | 00:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.openverse.com/~dtinker/agalmics.html | 00:52 |
| drazak | kanzure: I meant, people should make more of their own stuff for themselves | 00:52 |
| kanzure | What did you say previously that would make me think you didn't mean that? | 00:53 |
| drazak | but there still has to be a unified commercial infrastructure, IE some guy making money off us, as it creates some ammount of quality assurance | 00:53 |
| kanzure | How do you know that? | 00:53 |
| drazak | I don't know how assured my quality is if some people aren't making money off it | 00:53 |
| drazak | what's their motive? | 00:53 |
| fenn | my experience is that items made outside of the money-based industries are inferior | 00:53 |
| fenn | erf | 00:53 |
| fenn | s/inferior/superior/ | 00:53 |
| kanzure | hahah | 00:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: That's a pretty bad mistake to make there. | 00:54 |
| fenn | freudian slip :P | 00:54 |
| drazak | lol | 00:54 |
| fenn | oh well, i couldnt make a laser printer in my garage if i tried | 00:54 |
| fenn | that's the real problem | 00:54 |
| kanzure | To what extent of 'make' though? Are you going to make the toner cartridge? | 00:54 |
| kanzure | Because it's basically some sort of laser dongle that activates the toner on a roller in a certain pattern, and then it rolls on to the page or some such | 00:55 |
| drazak | I meant anything | 00:55 |
| drazak | but whatever | 00:55 |
| kanzure | "I don't know how assured my quality is if some people aren't making money off of it [anything]" <- That? | 00:56 |
| drazak | my views are insubstatial in the greater world, as they're similar to others views | 00:56 |
| fenn | kanzure: make all the parts that wouldnt exist if there were no commercial entity manufacturing laser printers | 00:56 |
| drazak | no, I meant we should start making things for ouselves, but I don't necessarily mean stuff like /toner cartridges/ I meant clothes and essentials | 00:57 |
| fenn | why clothes and not toner cartridges? | 00:57 |
| kanzure | clothing or the written word? Hrm. | 00:57 |
| kanzure | written word *on* clothing! | 00:57 |
| kanzure | problem solved? | 00:57 |
| drazak | toner cartridges are a luxury | 00:57 |
| fenn | e-ink jacket | 00:57 |
| drazak | kanzure: pen and paper, etc | 00:57 |
| fenn | drazak: clothes are a luxury | 00:58 |
| kanzure | You tell me when you get done transcribing tonight's TCP headers by hand.. | 00:58 |
| drazak | uh... | 00:58 |
| drazak | you're not printing TCP headers either | 00:58 |
| fenn | drazak: a large human population is a luxury, maybe we should just let everyone die and have only people living in tropics | 00:58 |
| drazak | fenn: not inthis odern day, clothes are considered essential | 00:59 |
| fenn | some people consider a cellphone to be essential | 00:59 |
| drazak | eh | 00:59 |
| fenn | personally, i couldn't imagine life without a pocket knife, but sometimes i have to make do | 00:59 |
| drazak | clothing, food, shelter, water, and tools to help gain the others | 01:00 |
| drazak | are the essentials :) | 01:00 |
| fenn | what about air? | 01:00 |
| fenn | what about love, purpose, freedom? | 01:00 |
| drazak | I'm talking about physical needs | 01:01 |
| drazak | gah | 01:01 |
| kanzure | "Oh, no thank you. Freedom for me." | 01:01 |
| drazak | maybe I'm being too serious, and you're not | 01:01 |
| drazak | :P | 01:01 |
| fenn | when people start telling me that clothing and shelter are essentials, i get suspicious | 01:01 |
| kanzure | laaaand | 01:01 |
| drazak | right | 01:01 |
| drazak | because I definitely want to spend a buffalo winter | 01:01 |
| drazak | nude | 01:01 |
| drazak | without shelter | 01:02 |
| drazak | no fricking thank you | 01:02 |
| fenn | kanzure: "land" just means, there is some promise that nobody is going to come and kill you just for existing | 01:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: right | 01:02 |
| fenn | drazak: i like gupta's list of things that will kill people on opentoolbox | 01:03 |
| drazak | no idea what that is | 01:03 |
| drazak | honestly, I'm just here for the biochemistry | 01:04 |
| drazak | :P | 01:04 |
| kanzure | From openmanufacturing? | 01:04 |
| fenn | remove all the causes of death, are your "essentials" met? | 01:04 |
| kanzure | btw, I just posted to openmanufacturing about some biochem bootstrapping of some of those efforts (in response to Collis) | 01:04 |
| fenn | its buried in this pdf somewhere, basically "overheating, hypothermia, illness, malnutrition, injury" | 01:04 |
| kanzure | stupidity | 01:05 |
| kanzure | oh wait. | 01:05 |
| kanzure | Nevermind. | 01:05 |
| drazak | kanzure: link? | 01:05 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/1cb7121cc12c2ef8 | 01:06 |
| fenn | (the pdf: http://media.theopentoolbox.com/3_The_Open_Toolbox_for_Domestic_Disaster_Response_03102008_draft.pdf) | 01:06 |
| kanzure | Gah. I did something very stupid. I took a dose of Adderall at 19:30. | 01:11 |
| fenn | you FOOL! | 01:12 |
| fenn | now you are going to just have to do homework for the next 5 hours straight | 01:12 |
| drazak | I'm about to fall asleep | 01:13 |
| fenn | i have a long boring night ahead of me | 01:13 |
| fenn | orbital LOX mining? how would that even work? | 01:15 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/LEO_Atmospheric_Gas_Harvester_final___John_Wilkes.doc | 01:17 |
| kanzure | Hrm. Let me convert that. | 01:19 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/LEO_Atmospheric_Gas_Harvester_final___John_Wilkes.html | 01:20 |
| fenn | thanks | 01:21 |
| fenn | kword does a pretty decent job of displaying .doc files in the browser, but i cant figure out how to save them | 01:22 |
| kanzure | Hah! Pay processing is day-of. Cool. | 01:30 |
| fenn | umumum wtf is he talking about propeller airplanes and balloons for? | 01:34 |
| fenn | dipping into the atmosphere as low as it could, and coming to a near stop. Here it would either hover or move very slowly as it gathered and processed the air. After filling its oxygen tanks and ejecting waste gases such as nitrogen, the craft would use boosters to reach orbit | 01:35 |
| fenn | that's so retarded | 01:35 |
| fenn | they should fill the scoop with a region of charged particles that are lighter than oxygen, so during a collision it tends to slow the oxygen down rather than speed it up | 01:50 |
| kanzure | please reply about retardedness on the mailing list too | 01:51 |
| fenn | it was just annoying that he even mentioned it because it's so far removed from anything that might actually work | 01:52 |
| fenn | its like mentioning giant luna moths as a possible mode of transport to the moon | 01:53 |
| kanzure | Didn't Asimov do that one already? | 01:57 |
| fenn | doctor doolittle | 01:58 |
| kanzure | I've never been so terribly far off. Gah. | 01:58 |
| kanzure | Btw, I've come up with the 'better format' (conceptually), but I want to confirm with the doc before I do something stupid, so this will occur sometime tomorrow | 01:59 |
| kanzure | I took the 'sockets' idea and ran with it, so there's a number of 'sockets' that each part has, in the TCP/IP socket stack sense, not in the sense of actual sockets (the ones that are more related to manufacturing than TCP/IP sockets) | 02:00 |
| kanzure | erm. anyway. | 02:00 |
| fenn | lemme finish reading it | 02:00 |
| fenn | i'm not convinced about the silicon nanoparticles | 02:01 |
| fenn | it seems like possibly one could use a series of giant turbomolecular pumps | 02:01 |
| fenn | to slow the molecules down gradually so they dont bounce out | 02:02 |
| fenn | or not so giant, if the maw is a cone | 02:02 |
| fenn | the centrifugal stress is higher with a smaller fan diameter though | 02:02 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/ Dumped some more HTML notes. | 02:03 |
| kanzure | Latest stuff has been actual neurobiology .. i.e., dealing with oscilloscopes and leak channels and dendritic "action potentials" (equivalents of, at least). | 02:03 |
| fenn | people still use oscilloscopes for neurology? | 02:04 |
| kanzure | Actually I was surprised to hear him mentioning something like "no" for that question .. I figured oscilloscopes were as universal as the soldering iron, but as it turns out there's some other device they may be using these days. I'll follow up on this. | 02:04 |
| fenn | oscilloscope is only really good for repeating signals or a single spike | 02:06 |
| fenn | more than that and its hard to display on a little screen :) | 02:06 |
| fenn | so people use data acquisition cards which are basically the same thing, but hooked to a computer | 02:06 |
| kanzure | ? I always assumed that it was what people did anyway. | 02:07 |
| kanzure | Data collection and analysis and such .. no way you're really going to get much from that 4x4 screen of an oscilloscope. | 02:07 |
| kanzure | (for their statistics packages) | 02:07 |
| fenn | well the word "oscilloscope" has become much less defined than it was before digital electronics came around | 02:08 |
| * kanzure laughs at his calculus homework. :-( Why the hell am I doing polar coordinate conversion calculations? Don't I have partial differentiable manifolds to swear at?? | 02:08 | |
| kanzure | 'multivariable calculus'. humph. | 02:08 |
| fenn | there is sort of a flaw in their business plan | 02:14 |
| fenn | if you have a functioning electrodynamic tether, you dont need to use oxygen on orbit for most of their refuel scenarios | 02:15 |
| fenn | there's a lot of extraneous info in that paper, it could be shortened to like 1 page and a drawing | 02:40 |
| fenn | thanks for showing me that. i think it's more useful as a way to get nitrogen and hydrogen for lunar colonies | 02:44 |
| kanzure | Story time. | 03:49 |
| kanzure | I was very annoyed today. | 03:49 |
| kanzure | Some of the bioreactor guys were talking with me about the latest plan to use liquid nitrogen to pop the algae. | 03:50 |
| kanzure | I thought that it was interesting, but remembered that I was looking into liquid nitrogen generation techniques and found it very energetically inefficient back for scramjets and so on. I know, a different application, but it was still something ridiculous in the amount of energy it takes to get it cold. | 03:50 |
| kanzure | But instead of going to look at the numbers they laughed :-) and mentioned that "oh, that's probably encoded in the cost of the liquid nitrogen supply". | 03:51 |
| kanzure | :-/ | 03:51 |
| willPower__ | what fools. | 03:55 |
| -!- willPower__ is now known as willPow3r | 03:55 | |
| kanzure | willPow3r: "It's cheap, so it must be right!" | 03:56 |
| willPow3r | slavery was cheap. was the cost of putting the slaves onto the ships encoded in the supply? | 03:57 |
| willPow3r | heh | 03:57 |
| kanzure | What I also see happening is that they are eager to get any lipid extracted at all without regard for the efficiencies in how much energy goes in and out. I don't care how much lipid you get out .. without making sure of your accounting, you could be doing more harm than good. | 03:58 |
| kanzure | Of course, in economic terms, that's irrelevant -- because nobody's actually paying you to be ecologically truthful or whatever you want to call it | 03:58 |
| kanzure | because it's mostly a human perception issue | 03:58 |
| kanzure | Yay science | 03:59 |
| willPow3r | if we were using biofuels to compress the nitrogen, the cost of supply would be significantly more | 03:59 |
| fenn | ooo kanzure rediscovers economics :) | 04:11 |
| kanzure | Re? | 04:12 |
| fenn | energy balance | 04:12 |
| fenn | electricity is so amazingly cheap people don't realize it | 04:12 |
| kanzure | No, I was questioning the re-discovers. | 04:12 |
| fenn | the cost of energy _is_ encoded in the liquid nitrogen you buy at the store (so to speak) | 04:13 |
| kanzure | 'cost of' | 04:13 |
| kanzure | Sure, it pays their bills, if that's what you mean, | 04:13 |
| kanzure | but it doesn't mean that the economy is some global energy usage routing mechanism | 04:13 |
| fenn | i mean the difficulty to make liquid nitrogen on an industrial scale | 04:13 |
| fenn | ah but it is | 04:13 |
| fenn | we dig gold out of the ground instead of dumping electricity into particle accelerators to transmute lead | 04:14 |
| kanzure | Economics 101: materials, resources, energy are always the hax0rs to 'economics'. | 04:14 |
| fenn | because the electricity is too expensive | 04:14 |
| kanzure | I wonder why gene continues to ignore me. | 04:15 |
| kanzure | He keeps showing up with various ideas for the latest and greatest and then is on to the next thing | 04:15 |
| kanzure | I suggest to him some mechanisms of design and verification-of-functionality but it doesn't seem to matter to him | 04:16 |
| kanzure | I wonder what the point of idea-searching is, if you don't do anything but leave the ideas where you found them ? | 04:16 |
| fenn | youthful exhuberance | 04:16 |
| willPow3r | what is he trying to accomplish/build? | 04:16 |
| fenn | i do the same thing.. it's hard to get to know anything if you just narrowly focus on one tiny sliver of specialization | 04:16 |
| kanzure | replicators - via ad hoc methodology - which is exactly what we're not so into around these parts .. | 04:16 |
| kanzure | yeah, I do the same thing as well | 04:16 |
| kanzure | But I try not to be destructive I guess. | 04:17 |
| willPow3r | von neumann? | 04:17 |
| kanzure | Don't know how to explain it. | 04:17 |
| fenn | sorta reminds me of the attempts to treat cancer with the latest magic bullet | 04:17 |
| kanzure | In this case tonight it's the reactor | 04:17 |
| kanzure | yes fenn.. | 04:17 |
| fenn | the reactor is a magic bullet? | 04:18 |
| kanzure | Nah, he came somehow to the idea of toroidal vortices, so I recommended some surface rendering and modeling in the CFD simulators, but he's pretty significantly ignoring that | 04:18 |
| fenn | those are pretty cool, yep | 04:18 |
| kanzure | Hell, I even linked him to the code base to start from to hack out some OpenGL and quickly render the different concavities in the surfaces to different whirlpools and such from jet streams; | 04:19 |
| fenn | show him focusfusion.org | 04:19 |
| kanzure | At this point it probably sounds like I'm just annoyed for being ignored but that's not quite it either. | 04:20 |
| kanzure | What gets me is that in the end his method is what happens anyway in most projects .. | 04:20 |
| kanzure | randomly stumbling into ideas and running with them. | 04:20 |
| fenn | there was some kid (ten or so) who kept asking "what if ..." and then i'd patiently consider his scenario and explain the consequences but by the time i was done explaining he was bored and on to the next "what if" scenario | 04:21 |
| fenn | it's not fun being treated as a computer | 04:21 |
| willPow3r | fenn, you need to learn how to make science sound more interesting. | 04:22 |
| kanzure | Interestingly, though, isn't the "random stumble" one method of search for improvements? "Simulated annealing". I | 04:22 |
| willPow3r | i hope that kid doesn't go on to become a business major | 04:22 |
| fenn | willPow3r: it wasnt science it was crap like "what if we had purple skin" | 04:22 |
| kanzure | willPow3r: Nah, this is a general property of some people. | 04:22 |
| kanzure | I don't know if it's outgrown or what .. | 04:22 |
| kanzure | It's .. alarming. | 04:22 |
| willPow3r | indeed, i see it as a form of losing faith in humanity | 04:22 |
| kanzure | ? | 04:23 |
| fenn | it's hard to get excited about something if you dont see it as a magic bullet | 04:23 |
| kanzure | Isn't the trick to be the magic bullet? | 04:23 |
| fenn | uh, there are no magic bullets | 04:23 |
| kanzure | Oh right. ;-) | 04:23 |
| ybit | now i know what it's like be ignored | 04:24 |
| * ybit is the magic bullet | 04:24 | |
| kanzure | ybit: Hm? | 04:24 |
| kanzure | Heh. | 04:24 |
| fenn | the trick is to find synergy between non-magic bullets | 04:24 |
| kanzure | sure sure | 04:24 |
| fenn | like miniaturized electronics acts synergistically with computers | 04:24 |
| kanzure | but if you look for that trick, isn't that the magic bullet ? | 04:24 |
| kanzure | trick=magic? | 04:24 |
| kanzure | Yay ontological bullshitting. | 04:24 |
| fenn | magic = how much use you get out of it | 04:24 |
| kanzure | well done | 04:25 |
| fenn | it helps to be grounded :) | 04:25 |
| willPow3r | business is kind of a default major. so to not be able to find something more interesting than business is like saying "im capable of something that, more or less, equates to nothing" | 04:25 |
| * fenn is watching richard feynman on youtube | 04:25 | |
| kanzure | some quotes that have been floating around in my head today | 04:25 |
| kanzure | "I don't want to take this any further for now. It is just that I have developed an allergy to the reflexive assumption that local truths can be safely applied to global considerations. There is not even a way to get evidence as to whether they can or cannot." | 04:25 |
| kanzure | Ah, fenn's being pumped up with Feynman. No wonder. | 04:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: I liked Feynman's video on "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out". | 04:25 |
| fenn | that's what i'm watching | 04:25 |
| kanzure | I think I've read everything by Feynman except Surely You're Joking, Six Lectures, and his comp sci lectures. | 04:26 |
| kanzure | including everything by Carl. | 04:26 |
| fenn | no such thing as 'global' | 04:26 |
| fenn | everything is a special case | 04:27 |
| fenn | unless you want to run a universe simulator | 04:27 |
| fenn | which is equivalent to a time machine in principle | 04:27 |
| fenn | and even then you have to run an infinite number of possible universes | 04:28 |
| kanzure | increasingly coherent over increasing context | 04:28 |
| fenn | piffle | 04:28 |
| kanzure | piffle? | 04:28 |
| fenn | just because you want it to be that way doesn't make it so | 04:28 |
| kanzure | Sorry, was just reciting Jefisms. | 04:28 |
| kanzure | No, that's the same thing as talking about synergies of nonmagicbullets. | 04:29 |
| fenn | the essence of bureaucratic injustice is to apply "globally coherent" rules to specific situations | 04:29 |
| kanzure | globally coherent would seem to imply local incoherence | 04:29 |
| fenn | what is 'coherent' supposed to mean btw? | 04:30 |
| kanzure | thus no coherence .. | 04:30 |
| fenn | i've got this picture of random static zooming out to flat gray | 04:30 |
| kanzure | I don't want to go into this at the moment, but basically it's a Jefism, it's his way of talking about these things, and he does present a persistent development of these ideas on the mailing lists, but it doesn't matter that much | 04:30 |
| kanzure | heh | 04:30 |
| kanzure | processing. | 04:32 |
| kanzure | Jef: hmmm, i would picture an intricate fractal pattern becoming increasingly disorganized and fading out to the edges | 04:32 |
| kanzure | 'random static is by definition incoherent' | 04:32 |
| fenn | a fractal would remain equally ordered/chaotic at all length scales | 04:33 |
| kanzure | "Yes, but the kind of fractals found throughout nature show only approximate self-simlarity at various scales, evidene of nature's tendency to preserve and re-use patterns that work." | 04:35 |
| kanzure | bleh | 04:35 |
| fenn | dunno what that's in reference to | 04:36 |
| kanzure | "And the fading out is not in nature but due to the observer's limit of vision." | 04:36 |
| kanzure | maybe I can get him in here so that I don't have to play conduit.. | 04:37 |
| fenn | lol feynman "but those are mysteries i want to investigate without knowing the answer to them' | 04:46 |
| ybit | kanzure, have you checked into getting a fablab any further? | 04:49 |
| ybit | (for your uni.) | 04:49 |
| fenn | why isnt any university working on making low cost fablab tools? | 04:50 |
| kanzure | No. At this point it's my understanding that I just need to write out the checks to get the equipment. | 04:50 |
| fenn | there's no reason these fablab's can't produce most of the pieces required to build their own tools | 04:51 |
| kanzure | knowledge. | 04:51 |
| fenn | for example milling circuit boards for stepper drivers on a cnc mill | 04:51 |
| fenn | and there's no investigation into building motors from scratch on the same equipment | 04:53 |
| fenn | to reduce the number of external inputs | 04:53 |
| fenn | then you just stockpile external inputs like power transistors, microcontrollers, copper wire | 04:54 |
| fenn | hopefully that gets enough economies of scale to make it worth doing in the first place, rather than outsourcing | 04:54 |
| fenn | would also like to see more small-scale recycling research | 04:56 |
| ybit | quote: | 05:31 |
| ybit | For each Fab Lab, MIT | 05:31 |
| ybit | pays for equipment, and the host country provides the location for the | 05:31 |
| ybit | lab. | 05:31 |
| ybit | if only it was :%s/country/university | 05:32 |
| fenn | personally i think they should supply it on a floating sea platform | 05:33 |
| fenn | anchored at the border of the 200 mile EEZ of course | 05:33 |
| ybit | :) | 05:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: if you don't believe in magic bullets then how can you possibly believe in intelligence. | 06:15 |
| kanzure | ew. weird question has been posted to the openmanufacturing mailing list. | 06:37 |
| fenn | intelligence isnt a magic bullet either. look where it's gotten us pathetic humans | 07:21 |
| kanzure | and yet people would say that's because humans /aren't/ intelligent | 07:23 |
| kanzure | I'm pretty sure I've caught you. | 07:23 |
| kanzure | don't you have to grant me three wishes now or something? | 07:24 |
| fenn | hmph | 07:24 |
| fenn | you can have me lucky charms, but you'll never get me gold! | 07:24 |
| fenn | one definition of intelligence is "the ability to solve problems with limited resources" | 07:25 |
| fenn | so, perhaps we just aren't intelligent enough, which is equivalent to saying we don't have enough resources | 07:27 |
| kanzure | "guns don't solve problems, people solve problems" insert vague reference to our previous talk about magic bullets or something | 07:28 |
| kanzure | but don't bother because I'm technically not thinking at the moment | 07:28 |
| * fenn returns to watching macross plus | 07:31 | |
| kanzure | buh! lucky. | 07:31 |
| kanzure | which one? | 07:31 |
| fenn | um, the movie | 07:45 |
| fenn | with "sharon apple" aka gabriela robin | 07:45 |
| kanzure | http://brainsway.com/ - deep brain TMS. " Deep TMS uses a unique, patented coil design to produce directed electromagnetic fields that can induce excitation or inhibition of neurons deep inside the brain." | 08:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.neuronetics.com/ - TMS to treat depression. | 08:10 |
| kanzure | http://brainsway.com/Brainsway/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=318&PID=496 | 08:10 |
| kanzure | ' f Three-Dimensional Distributio | 08:10 |
| kanzure | yep, numerical optimization of coil design | 08:13 |
| kanzure | 'Hesed coil' | 08:15 |
| kanzure | bah, simulations with Mathematica .. | 08:16 |
| kanzure | 'the head was modeled as a spherical homogenous volume conductor with a radius of 7 cm' | 08:17 |
| kanzure | Eaton 1992 Eaton H. Electric field induced in a spherical volume conductor from arbitrary coils: application to magnetic stimulation and MEG. | 08:20 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/Eaton - Electric field induced in a spherical volume conductor from arbitrary coils: application to magnetic stimulation and MEG.pdf | 08:22 |
| kanzure | Line integrals. | 08:24 |
| kanzure | https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/11280 | 12:46 |
| kanzure | Steve and I were discussing some possibilities of a field programmable coil arrays for transcranial magnetic stimulation this morning. More just an issue of choosing which parts of the coils to activate to generate a particular electric field shape for the stimulation of a particular region of the brain, and I suspect it would have something to do with the instantiation of dipole moments. | 12:54 |
| nsh | YAY SPHERICAL COWS | 13:43 |
| nsh | the head is now a spherical homogenous conductor, yo | 13:43 |
| nsh | when you're plan is to fuck around with strong magnetic fields in the damn brain, you might want to sharpen your level of approximation | 13:43 |
| nsh | *your | 13:43 |
| kanzure_1_ | Hrm. The laptop is off again. | 16:58 |
| kanzure_1_ | hplusmagazine has been published. Have not read it. | 17:34 |
| kanzure_1_ | Michel sent out an email about 'VOICED'. My immediate reaction was "Woah. Awesome! I gotta forward this to Dr. Campbell." | 17:39 |
| kanzure_1_ | Second reaction, after forwarding it to Dr. Campbell was, "Oh shit, *we're* VOICED." | 17:39 |
| ybit_school | kanzure_ didn't you find a site which lists where natural materials can be found/mined? | 17:50 |
| ybit_school | or if someone else did, speak up please :) | 17:51 |
| ybit_school | mapsofworld.com | 17:53 |
| ybit_school | hm, need something better... oh yeah, i know | 17:53 |
| kanzure_1_ | ybit_school: Yes, I did. | 17:53 |
| kanzure_1_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ | 17:53 |
| kanzure_1_ | mindat.zip | 17:53 |
| kanzure_1_ | Should be small. | 17:53 |
| ybit_school | bam | 17:53 |
| ybit_school | that's it | 17:53 |
| ybit_school | i remember looking through that site while in nashville | 17:54 |
| ybit_school | gracias | 17:54 |
| kanzure_1_ | VOICED =~ Virtual Organization for Innovative Conceptual Engineering Design | 17:54 |
| kanzure_1_ | http://www.hplusmagazine.com/ | 17:55 |
| ybit_school | http://www.mindat.org/min-2358.html is showing a different location of lead from http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm | 17:59 |
| ybit_school | mapsoftheworld shows lead in south america, but it doesn't show oil in brazil | 18:02 |
| kanzure_1_ | That magazine .. it's just a walking piece of commercialism. | 18:03 |
| ybit_school | theoretically, all machines are open-hardware, is it possible for a city such as Sao Paulo to become self-sufficient? Trade is needed for access to minerals they don't have, right? I'm having a difficulty seeing how such a city could be self-sufficient without rockets and robots mining some extraterrestrial body | 18:20 |
| UtopiahG1ML | Brazil have Oil they have the Petrobras company which is one of their top firm despite its kind of special status (private/public own) | 18:22 |
| ybit_school | right, so.. a country which is insufficient in natural resources | 18:23 |
| UtopiahG1ML | ehh... like all countries basically? | 18:23 |
| ybit_school | exactly | 18:24 |
| UtopiahG1ML | what's your point/question? | 18:24 |
| ybit_school | no point | 18:25 |
| UtopiahG1ML | are you woman? | 18:25 |
| ybit_school | the question is doesn't a country/city need to trade? | 18:25 |
| ybit_school | haha, no | 18:25 |
| UtopiahG1ML | ok, just checking because women tend to do that, discussing without having a point | 18:25 |
| ybit_school | i | 18:26 |
| ybit_school | 'm not discussing, mostly asking | 18:26 |
| UtopiahG1ML | well if a system lack resources it needs to get them by trade of force yes | 18:26 |
| UtopiahG1ML | of/or | 18:26 |
| ybit_school | i would like to for a city to be self-sufficient and still have decent technolgy without needing to trade, but just not seeing how it's possible without trade | 18:27 |
| bkero | What would they have to trade for? | 18:27 |
| UtopiahG1ML | have you check the NASA experiments regarding self-sustainability of an isolated system that includes human beings? | 18:28 |
| ybit_school | UtopiahG1ML: no | 18:28 |
| ybit_school | bkero: minerals of course | 18:28 |
| UtopiahG1ML | I can't remember the name but they sponsored such experiments | 18:28 |
| ybit_school | http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm -- you can see that not all countries have the same resources | 18:28 |
| bkero | Depends on what standard of living you want. | 18:29 |
| bkero | What do you need minerals for? | 18:29 |
| ybit_school | well, i'm aiming for a high standard of living in this theoretical world | 18:29 |
| ybit_school | to create the open-machines | 18:30 |
| UtopiahG1ML | entropy? | 18:31 |
| nsh | ENTROPY | 18:31 |
| bkero | ENTROPY | 18:32 |
| ybit_school | wtf? | 18:32 |
| ybit_school | explain please | 18:32 |
| ybit_school | i know what it is, just not understanding wher you three are going with it :) | 18:34 |
| bkero | Don't mind me, I'm just reiterating. | 18:34 |
| ybit_school | steel, glass, titanium, and Lead zirconate titanate == edm machine | 18:34 |
| ybit_school | and just for glass: sand, trona, lime, albite, orthoclase, dolomite, borax | 18:35 |
| bkero | You can use sugar for glass instead of sand. | 18:35 |
| ybit_school | cool | 18:36 |
| bkero | Hollywood does it all the time to make more breakable glass. | 18:36 |
| bkero | You can also eat it. :) | 18:36 |
| ybit_school | no thanks :) | 18:36 |
| ybit_school | i suppose trade is necessary. so what is the impact of open-sourcing the hardware design? probably a lower cost of goods for most people, more and quicker innovation; and for some countries, a greater independence. | 18:45 |
| ybit_school | well, i'm off | 18:58 |
| bkero | kanzure_1_: ping | 20:01 |
| fenn | ybit: no, you don't need trade, but cities are mostly sited near bodies of water or other features that promote trade. rarely do you see a large city on mineral rich areas or good soil | 20:03 |
| fenn | kanzure_1_: who is VOICED? (yes i've read the email) (and whats up with the annoying all caps) | 20:04 |
| fenn | (sounds like a "transhumanist engineers come out of the closet" organization) | 20:05 |
| -!- splicer_sleeping is now known as splicer | 20:34 | |
| fenn | who is "Humanity+"? | 20:35 |
| fenn | "we have rebranded our organization Humanity+" but they dont say what they were before | 20:35 |
| fenn | oh, it's WTA, blah | 20:38 |
| splicer | looks a bit oprah to me | 20:47 |
| splicer | wasn't kanz one of the webmasters there? | 20:47 |
| splicer | heh... the swedish chapter there still links to my forum | 20:49 |
| bkero | Laptop is sold. | 20:51 |
| ybit | congrats bkero | 21:16 |
| fenn | The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king! | 21:34 |
| fenn | i need to learn how to pull off a stunt like that and have people believe it | 21:35 |
| bkero | Watch the Upright Citizens Brigade. | 21:37 |
| xp_prg | hi all! | 21:49 |
| fenn | hah. RU Sirius cc's any correspondence to his lawyer by default. what's this world coming to | 21:59 |
| fenn | sigh.. do i have to write a standard essay debunking the various "essentials" for human life? | 22:03 |
| fenn | everyone seems to have a different idea about what's "essential" | 22:04 |
| splicer | "Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government" | 22:20 |
| kanzure_ | "Humanity+" is WTA, yes. And we all hate them for this. | 22:34 |
| kanzure_ | Re: open hardware / efficiency | 22:34 |
| kanzure_ | Will get back to this after I get sleep. I have a test from 7 to 9 tonight, so sleep isn't coming soon. :/ | 22:34 |
| fenn | who is "VOICED"? | 22:35 |
| fenn | Robert Stone Daniel McAdams University of Missouri-Rolla ? | 22:36 |
| fenn | hmm Matthew Campbell sounds familiar | 22:36 |
| fenn | i guess thats him http://www.me.utexas.edu/~campbell/index.htm | 22:37 |
| * fenn grumbles about academics | 22:39 | |
| fenn | for $82k you'd think they could at least make a webpage | 22:40 |
| kanzure_ | 82k whats? | 22:40 |
| kanzure_ | Yes, Robert Stone and such. | 22:40 |
| fenn | $82k NSF grant award | 22:41 |
| fenn | for ... something | 22:41 |
| kanzure_ | okay, so as it turns out, other universities have their reverse engineering classes secretly inserting data into the repository entry app | 22:42 |
| kanzure_ | as it turns out, campbell and I both hate it now | 22:42 |
| fenn | oh, boxes with arrows | 22:42 |
| kanzure_ | soo I've sold him on the ajax interface | 22:42 |
| fenn | how original | 22:42 |
| kanzure_ | I prefer CLI always; but if we want to make sure we're getting the data /we/ want .. | 22:43 |
| kanzure_ | apparently the MST/Stone-group people aren't really using the repository for anything | 22:43 |
| kanzure_ | I mean, if they are, the data's fucking ridiculous | 22:43 |
| kanzure_ | (so yes, I now consider it mostly useless) | 22:43 |
| fenn | so the idea is just 'put up a server and have multiple universities contribute to it'? | 22:45 |
| kanzure_ | "The idea"? | 22:45 |
| kanzure_ | That's not VOICED, to my knowledge. | 22:45 |
| fenn | well all i have to go on is this poster: http://www.engr.psu.edu/ideasLab/projects/VOICEDPoster.pdf | 22:46 |
| kanzure_ | I have three or four printed pages somewhere | 22:46 |
| kanzure_ | He printed out the VOICED proposal for me, at least a few pages, since I was eager to go over it a month ago | 22:47 |
| kanzure_ | I'll dig it out Real Soon. | 22:47 |
| fenn | well, if it's not terribly interesting then nevermind | 22:47 |
| kanzure_ | oh, it was, it wasn't anything surprising but it was interesting and nice to see. | 22:47 |
| fenn | i was sorta confused because it sounded a lot like SKDB and i thought maybe i was participating in some shadowy organization without knowing it | 22:48 |
| kanzure_ | Heh. | 22:48 |
| kanzure_ | That may well be the case for both of us .. | 22:48 |
| kanzure_ | or not. Anyway, a lot of the things going on here sound like SKDB, and that's why I'm there in the first place. | 22:49 |
| fenn | right | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | Although Michel bringing it up | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | is a very interesting find. | 22:49 |
| fenn | i wonder how he even foudn it | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | I should become Michel. | 22:49 |
| fenn | oh right, Franz Nahrada | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | is he at a uni? | 22:50 |
| fenn | omg fucking patrick anderson is a broken record | 22:50 |
| kanzure_ | uh oh. | 22:51 |
| * kanzure_ checks. | 22:51 | |
| fenn | http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/franz-nahrada-can-we-produce-for-physical-abundance-or-sufficiency/2008/01/14 | 22:51 |
| fenn | Fabbers may seem amazing, but they will not solve the problems we face. We have always had slow-motion, self-reproducing Fabbers that require only land (surface area), soil, water, sun and the rotting material of previous such Fabbers | 22:51 |
| kanzure_ | Not easily programmed. | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | Cite my summer research in intersection of manufacturing+computation in the biological realm of this stuffs. | 22:52 |
| fenn | i like this "Software developers are the Buddhist monks of tomorrow, but the general population has not understood yet that feeding them provides abundance." | 22:54 |
| * fenn notes that his kitchen is devoid of food | 22:54 | |
| kanzure_ | I dislike Christian's semantic mediawiki focus. | 22:59 |
| * bkero notes that he's still at work and his kitchen is completely bursting with foods. | 22:59 | |
| kanzure_ | This is openvirgle all over again. | 22:59 |
| kanzure_ | Does anybody want to dump all the reasons from the openvirgle mailing list to openmanufacturing? Seriously .. | 23:06 |
| fenn | the reasons? | 23:06 |
| fenn | i like the name better than 'openvirgle' at least :) | 23:06 |
| fenn | there's at least a connotation of making stuff | 23:07 |
| fenn | even if all we do is rant about politics | 23:07 |
| fenn | re: semantic mediawiki, i guess my eyes glazed over when i saw that, dont remember reading it at all | 23:08 |
| kanzure_ | reasons re: semantic mediawiki = nothanks, that's what I meant | 23:09 |
| kanzure_ | there's quite literally a handful of emails that specifically write it all out | 23:09 |
| fenn | i see | 23:09 |
| kanzure_ | also the fact that wikis are just crappy RCSes, etc. | 23:09 |
| fenn | but with the all important Web Interface | 23:09 |
| fenn | (tm) | 23:09 |
| kanzure_ | Buddhists monks don't need no damned Web Interface TM. | 23:10 |
| kanzure_ | (TM was a "Technical Machine" in the pokemon games.) | 23:10 |
| fenn | jesus christ, christian siefkes wrote a 155 page book on peer production | 23:12 |
| kanzure_ | hm? | 23:13 |
| kanzure_ | Oh good god | 23:14 |
| kanzure_ | 512 203 0507 | 23:14 |
| fenn | there's a whole lot of theory out there for what little is actually going on | 23:14 |
| kanzure_ | Internet connectivity shutdown | 23:14 |
| kanzure_ | "account being on suspension" | 23:15 |
| fenn | um, that sucks | 23:15 |
| fenn | see you at the library :P | 23:15 |
| kanzure_ | Redundant lines, my friend. | 23:15 |
| fenn | oh, they're only shutting down one of your illegal pirate hacker tor nodes? | 23:16 |
| kanzure_ | "Forgot your username or password? Click here." "THANK YOU, YOUR USERNAME AND PASSWORD HAS BEEN EMAILED TO YOU." | 23:19 |
| kanzure_ | MORONS. | 23:19 |
| * kanzure_ goes to eat some hybrid orbitals | 23:19 | |
| willPow3r | mmm, orbitals. i prefer the sp3 type myself | 23:55 |
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