2008-11-09.log

--- Day changed Sun Nov 09 2008
fenn	warble	00:17
kanzure_	A few weeks ago I was playing around with some US govt maps of material resources for North America. I was hoping to overlay this information with the mindat.org rip. It now occurs to me that since this is going to be terrible anyway, it might as well also include a surfraw-like interface to raw materials.	00:29
willPow3r	kanzure_, i just found ArcGIS in my garage. http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/	00:39
willPow3r	you might find it useful	00:39
willPow3r	i havent had the chance to play with it yet but it looks pretty neat	00:43
kanzure_	Huh. http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html <- Another good one.	00:58
kanzure_	http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.autism/msg/4e17b031c6858372?pli=1	01:09
xp_prg	I added a kinetic law, math and parameters to my sbml!	01:11
kanzure_	You already had that.	01:13
xp_prg	no I didn't	01:13
xp_prg	I had a rate law	01:13
kanzure_	Ah, okay.	01:14
fenn	kanzure_: the links on inertia are impressive	01:27
fenn	i even used the same word, "mental inertia"	01:27
* UtopiahGHML did too and thought about cognitive gravity, as in being stuck with a popular thinking model, etc		01:28
kanzure_	Yes, these models of 'cognitive gravity' have been mentioned by a few other sources as well. If I had my old ADR file, I'd link UtopiahGHML over to the one specifically about 'gravity' and 'the mind' (it was a crank-site, but whatever, these are all analogies anyway).	01:36
kanzure_	Yes, these models of 'cognitive gravity' have been mentioned by a few other sources as well. If I had my old ADR file, I'd link UtopiahGHML over to the one specifically about 'gravity' and 'the mind' (it was a crank-site, but whatever, these are all analogies anyway).	01:37
-!- Utopiah is now known as UtopiahGHML		01:38
fenn	usually when the term inertia is used as an analogy, people are talking about group dynamics and how focused a group is on a task	01:38
fenn	oh well. lots of phenomena are similar mathematically.. electrical inductance for example	01:39
kanzure_	fenn: Do you remember my ranting about the idea for the 'sustained attention setup' from a while back? I was sort of hoping that it would lead to the development of a mental inertia monitor, or mental acceleraometer (neurobiofeedback), and the gas pedal would be stimulants, either chemical, magnetic, sonic, or in the information interface before the eyes.	01:39
kanzure_	erm, the chemcials wouldn't be the pedal, they would be what is released by the activation of the pedal	01:40
fenn	yes, but i thought you were trying to increase your inertia, which didnt seem desirable, so i didnt pay too much attention	01:40
fenn	(insert vision of bryan surrounded by pizza boxes and computer monitors)	01:40
kanzure_	oops, is my web cam on?	01:40
kanzure_	So a distinction between accelerating the focus on a specific task, versus decreasing inertia and the 'resistance to movement/action'	01:41
kanzure_	I suppose there is a difference. A wearable, portable system might allow for the second, where half of the problem would be the 'mental acceleraometer' and another half an inertial-decrementor.	01:42
fenn	often my problem is with little things, and so having a mechanism to accelerate focus on that task would get the task done but there would be problems because i'd still be focused on it even though it is complete	01:42
kanzure_	are these little things predictable	01:42
fenn	no	01:43
fenn	responding to an email for example	01:43
kanzure_	obvious solution would be to have a way to select a 'program' on the eyepiece to have a set 'chemical schedule' for that (which would be great)	01:43
fenn	i often spend hours on what should be a three liner	01:43
kanzure_	bleh, emailing could be done in block scheduling of the day-calendar if you were guaranteed some neurobiofeedback that would allow it to actually get done (this hypothetical imagined system)	01:44
fenn	please explain "neurobiofeedback"	01:44
kanzure_	randomly replying to email throughout the day would still be an issue.	01:44
kanzure_	neurobiofeedback is the concept of having some way to measure variables that have some value in predicting attention, focus, movement, or these other issues, and then ways to influence the outcome or functioning of the brain through some input method	01:45
fenn	fortunately email has the characteristic that all i have to do is press "send" and it's not possible to retract the message and write some more	01:45
kanzure_	There's no guarantee that any 'real' variables can be found, but on the other hand I've heard of people doing weird things with neurobiofeedback, heart rate control being a simple example (IVF + heart rate monitoring - I think some drugs have some sort of immediate affect on heart rate for instance)	01:46
kanzure_	or sometimes people finding ways to trigger a decrement or increment in heart rate through some weird thought-pattern that eventually becomes a 'learned skill' or something	01:47
* fenn glances at the empty container of chocolate		01:47
kanzure_	as an 'addiction', or have you found it serves some use?	01:47
fenn	increase/decrease heartrate is easy enough, but not exactly reliable	01:48
fenn	chocolate is more or less an addiction i suppose	01:48
kanzure_	right, so with neuropsychopharmaceuticals I'd guess that there might be a useful possibility space somewhere. or with rTMS/ultrasonics.	01:48
kanzure_	I was scarequoting 'addiction' because there's some hardcore addiction physiology out there, and then there's chocolate / insert-your-chocolate-here.	01:49
fenn	guh.. parse error	01:49
UtopiahGHML	http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=968605 http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17039252	01:49
UtopiahGHML	Is cacao a psychotropic drug ? Psychopathological study of self-labeled << chocolate addicts >> Reinforcing effects of caffeine and theobromine as found in chocolate	01:50
kanzure_	uhm, nevermind on that addiction thing. I don't think it's quite the same as, say, the mechanisms of nicotine addiction	01:50
fenn	"insert-your-chocolate-here" is poking fun at "addicted to creativity" scare stories right?	01:50
UtopiahGHML	same mechanism	01:50
kanzure_	No, I haven't heard those stories.	01:50
fenn	i forget who was saying djikstra never had a chance because he didnt have any prior warning about computer addiction :)	01:51
UtopiahGHML	psychotropics	01:51
UtopiahGHML	and some can be engeneous	01:51
UtopiahGHML	endo.	01:51
fenn	UtopiahGHML: of course caffeine is addictive, do we really need "psychopathological studies" on it?	01:51
kanzure_	Ah, no, I'm not poking fun at psychotropic addicts. There are 'casual users' I guess, which is close, but now I don't really care.	01:51
UtopiahGHML	fenn: it's because of those "of course" that we need study, ESPECIALLY on addictive topics!	01:52
kanzure_	fenn: probably the economics of caffeine factor into the motivations for studying it even more	01:52
fenn	haha my roomate goes through a $10 bag of coffee in two days	01:52
fenn	she buys coffee instead of food	01:52
fenn	it's kind of sad really	01:53
kanzure_	I knew somebody in high school who would do 10 cups a day. Wake at six am, sleep at 4 am. She would just read all night long, do stuff here and there, try to not be bored.	01:53
UtopiahGHML	still alive?	01:53
kanzure_	Crazy environmentalist chick. She got me hooked on some Sonata Artica.	01:53
kanzure_	Sonata Arctica.	01:54
kanzure_	"I don't come online only once a few weeks because I want to conserve energy." Carpooling (which isn't terrible, but the etiology is), etc.	01:54
fenn	the quote refers to internet addiction?	01:55
kanzure_	No, that's what she said to me when I asked why she's online so rarely despite being awake practically always.	01:55
fenn	carpooling??	01:55
UtopiahGHML	if she wants to conserve energy she should suicide... her reasoning lacks coherence.	01:56
kanzure_	Right, she was using the same origin reasoning as why she doesn't leave a compute ron.	01:56
fenn	ah "dont ... because i want to conserve energy" made it sound like there was some other reason	01:56
fenn	such people need to use a calculator	01:56
UtopiahGHML	or an abacus.	01:57
kanzure_	Yeah, so I should figure out if she's still alive.	01:57
fenn	your morning shower uses a month's worth of computer time	01:57
kanzure_	Heh, abacus :)	01:57
* fenn looks accusingly at UtopiahGHML's space heater		01:57
UtopiahGHML	fenn: see, here my car-miles-scale would be useful!	01:57
fenn	yes, if there were a meaningful way of keeping track of energy, not just in terms of joules or whatever, but the "opportunity cost" of that particular form of energy	01:58
fenn	for example coal is less valuable than smooth 3.3V DC	01:58
UtopiahGHML	well it has to be just accurate enough to make your point ;)	01:58
UtopiahGHML	satisficing.	01:59
kanzure_	Anyway, on the inertia page the author mentions "there is no cure", but on the same page the author also mentions that 'depression might be a cofactor', so I sort of doubt the 1996 author was able, or willing, or looking into pharmaceuticals at all. Or at aspects of the brain and neurons that might be responsible.	01:59
fenn	depression tends to reduce your willpower	02:00
fenn	i dont know enough about neuroanatomy to connect that with the pharmaceutical paradigm though	02:00
kanzure_	I'm pretty sure I'm not depressed. But I could be wrong.	02:01
UtopiahGHML	=]	02:01
fenn	and willpower is needed for start/stop or "acceleration"	02:01
kanzure_	Half of the people that diagnose depression seem to have depression themselves, and then it's this weird fuckfest of projection.	02:01
UtopiahGHML	Always look at the bright side of life	02:01
kanzure_	Before you draw your terminal breathe.	02:01
fenn	hehee	02:01
UtopiahGHML	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo	02:02
fenn	kanzure_: most people in industrial nations have depression :\	02:02
fenn	i think it's the food	02:02
UtopiahGHML	I think it's the lack of philosophy.	02:02
UtopiahGHML	and sport	02:03
fenn	ugh.. please pick a different word	02:03
UtopiahGHML	and... healthy lifestile	02:03
fenn	philosophy == wanking	02:03
kanzure_	UtopiahGHML: http://heybryan.org/projects/openpay/widget.php?projectID=1 has the same youtube vid I think	02:03
UtopiahGHML	fenn: is that a philosophical statement?	02:03
fenn	it's an opinion	02:04
kanzure_	I do, unfortunately, have family history of depression.	02:04
UtopiahGHML	me too	02:04
fenn	UtopiahGHML: i think what you mean is "purpose" not "philosophy"	02:04
kanzure_	But I'm hardly like the family member with the depression. Oh, there was also another on the other side of the tree, but that was confounded with alcoholism.	02:04
* fenn doesnt know anything about his extended family		02:05
UtopiahGHML	fenn: if you mean what I think I don't have to do it myself then, Im saving energy too, nice.	02:05
kanzure_	fenn: Don't they blurt it out at you uncontrollably?	02:05
kanzure_	Family histories, I mean.	02:06
fenn	my parents + brother + i were never very close to aunts + uncles + grandparents, partly because of physical distance (spread across entire US) and partly religious/atheist/child-abuse in my parents past	02:06
fenn	or something like that	02:07
kanzure_	There's significant distance between me and extended family, but that didn't stop them from showing up at every damned holiday.	02:07
fenn	so, i didnt go to my grandpa's funeral because it was like.. why should i travel across country for some guy i dont even know?	02:07
kanzure_	Michigan to Texas. You'd think you could find an excuse with the 9 states in between, but apparently not.	02:07
kanzure_	fenn: One day in 2007 I found that my grandmother's AIM handle had been signed on for three days. I made a few jokes with some buddies about this and how peculiar it was, even with my father who laughed too, "Geeze, maybe she died."	02:09
kanzure_	Turns out she did.	02:09
fenn	weird huh	02:09
kanzure_	My father and I both basically said "Huh." And moved on.	02:09
kanzure_	(Ok, not him. He actually flew up to arrange stuff.)	02:10
fenn	i'm sure i've mentioned the "internet obituary aggregator" before	02:10
kanzure_	Nope.	02:10
fenn	well, on many occasions people will just disappear with no explanation for years at a time	02:10
fenn	it just rankles me that i dont even know if they're dead or not	02:10
fenn	so there could be some way to automatically notify you if people you know have died	02:11
fenn	also you could maintain anonymity with some kind of public key infrastructure	02:11
kanzure_	People disappear from my 'realm' all the time. It's like missing an online buddy. One day they don't sign on. It's the same way with people in person for me.	02:11
kanzure_	Or one day they don't show up at the same place .. in class. "Has so-and-so died?"	02:12
fenn	in a physically co-located relationship, you can often get the information from people in the same area	02:12
fenn	but not so on the net	02:12
kanzure_	Before I lose inertia on the neurofeedback system stuff once again, hoping for "the all important variables" on a first prototype (like with rTMS with very specific targetted regions of the brain), is a bad strategy. Same with "magic bullet" pharmaceuticals. Same with the stuff on humancortex.html;	02:13
kanzure_	Something simpler is needed but that would be effective. Something that wouldn't rely on hardcore variables but give the same results.	02:14
fenn	and, unlike physical posessions, information artifacts such as web pages or software projects never get properly redistributed	02:14
kanzure_	Oh, I think I just described something impossible. Nevermind.	02:14
kanzure_	fenn: Tony is big into that particular subset of the problem.	02:14
kanzure_	He's been noticing that all of his friends are either dead, dying, or in the process of transitioning from missing or sick to 'officially dead', and is wondering wtf to do about all of the wonderful projects.	02:15
fenn	apparently it's much easier to become a monk or whatever the fuck it is that people do, than to say "hey people take care of this thing i worked on for years ok?:	02:15
fenn	of course the proper way of dealing with this is to not be a single point of failure in the first place, but somehow this idea hasn't been sufficiently impressed on the minds of the populace	02:16
kanzure_	Enki's priming stuff (xsublim work) is something I'm sure he'd like to have others keep around, but at the same time it hardly does the neurofeedback stuff that ideally it represents.	02:16
fenn	but it's not easy anyway, (non spof) so that's why there should be alternatives	02:16
* kanzure_ is still a giant SPOF		02:16
kanzure_	"We take dead projects."	02:17
gene_	bring out yer dead!	02:17
fenn	gene's approach is the right one	02:17
kanzure_	Tony submitted a youtube video over to Google for their prize thingy, and it was about archives and active community centers for dying projects of that sort.	02:17
gene_	uh kanzure	02:17
kanzure_	fenn: Agreed there.	02:17
UtopiahGHML	night guys	02:18
gene_	I might try making the filter in the cafeteria	02:18
fenn	i think sourceforge has saved a large number of projects from death in obscurity after the lead coder lost interest	02:18
gene_	those biodegradable straws can be thermoformed	02:18
kanzure_	gene_: You already mentioned that on gchat. Just tell me your method instead of the padding.	02:18
kanzure_	Thermoformed into shapes?	02:19
gene_	put straw in hot water	02:19
fenn	straw = PLA?	02:19
gene_	bend	02:19
gene_	you guessed it fenn	02:19
kanzure_	See. I knew you'd like my straw recommendation :)	02:19
fenn	how do you make a filter from PLA?	02:19
* kanzure_ notes that he didn't know that gene_ would.		02:19
gene_	it is a bit hard though because the straws	02:19
kanzure_	fenn: He's still on about the membraneless filter in a spiral shape.	02:20
fenn	gene_: do you know what a hilsch vortex tube is?	02:20
gene_	don't actually melt until 140 deg f	02:20
gene_	yeah	02:20
fenn	is this the same mechanism?	02:20
gene_	it's exactly that fenn	02:20
gene_	and not that at the same time	02:20
fenn	ok, close enuf	02:21
fenn	i did some of that back in my paranoid youth :)	02:21
gene_	so the straws have shape memory	02:21
fenn	ORME traps	02:21
gene_	and return to shape ARG	02:21
gene_	what the fuck is an ORME trap?	02:22
gene_	don't tell me it's one of those orgonne box things	02:22
fenn	might i suggest using PVC and PVC glue, or acrylic and acrylic glue..	02:22
gene_	ok	02:22
fenn	no, not related to orgone, but similar fringe 'invisible all around us' stuff	02:22
gene_	hahahaha	02:22
fenn	so some people have hypothesized they are the same thing	02:23
gene_	I almost bought into that	02:23
fenn	which?	02:23
fenn	i'm still not convinced either way, actually	02:23
gene_	I used to frequent amasci.com	02:23
gene_	a lot	02:23
fenn	it makes perfect sense from a physics standpoint	02:24
fenn	and i got some weird results from tap water and magnets, so..	02:24
fenn	so if your algae starts to levitate, it's your filter method :)	02:24
gene_	fenn I am afraid you must be brainwipped	02:25
fenn	oh and joe cell is probably the same thing	02:25
fenn	meh	02:25
gene_	don't worry you won't feel a thing	02:25
fenn	please put me to work in a secret gov't lab!	02:25
gene_	or at least you won't remember the pain	02:25
fenn	i will scrub the clone tanks, promise	02:26
fenn	sigh.. i wish	02:26
gene_	owning a clone farm is a level 10 international ethical offense	02:27
fenn	reality is probably just so embarrasing they never admit to spending $10b on cat-controlled cruise missiles	02:27
gene_	why would we	02:27
kanzure_	cat?	02:27
gene_	they are quite effective	02:27
fenn	un-jammable electronics	02:27
kanzure_	Is that some sort of defective microprocessor, "cat"?	02:27
fenn	it meows and has fur	02:27
gene_	no	02:27
fenn	also they were using homing pigeons and petunias	02:27
fenn	er, rhododendron	02:28
fenn	blah	02:28
gene_	that's how cat 5 cables were really developed	02:28
fenn	h2g2 has infiltrated my brain	02:28
* kanzure_ pats his h2g2 bible sitting on the shelf		02:28
gene_	DON'T PANIC	02:29
gene_	I am debating whether I should put all of wikipedia on my 4 gig DS flashcart	02:29
* kanzure_ was once making a "panic button" for his computer setup.		02:29
kanzure_	gene_: Wikipedia, in its entirety, is more like 160 GB.	02:29
gene_	and putting a big red button on it labeled don't panic	02:29
gene_	you can get a version for ipod that is about 4 gigs	02:30
fenn	http://www.zazzle.com/petunias_shirt-235406868735707892	02:30
kanzure_	When the panic button was activated, all of my work would be inserted into JPEG porn files in the comments section and as minute obscurities using some algorithm that I presently forget the name of, and then uploaded to p2p networks, hard drives subsequently wiped, plus an asterisk phone line hookup for remote control via cell phone. How's that for paranoia.	02:31
fenn	i believe that's the method al-qaeda uses	02:31
gene_	not very paranoid	02:31
gene_	if your really paranoid	02:32
gene_	you build you PC in a rocket	02:32
fenn	a rocket? what about the lasers?	02:32
gene_	so that it shoots off into space, the ocean, or switzerland	02:32
fenn	or all three	02:33
gene_	or have an acid sprayer in your harddrive	02:33
fenn	i like patrick stewart's periodic chinese character sign-in method, in that one movie.. sigh	02:33
kanzure_	1024-bit RCA encryption with a one-time keypad handed to Adolf Hitler, box physically located under Mount St. Hellen, surrounded by 50 ft of concrete in every direction and an array of UPS and generators that could power a small city for a decade; yes, yes, paranoia always knows its better.	02:33
kanzure_	*Mt. St. Hellen	02:34
gene_	uh Kanzure	02:34
gene_	you didn't clone Hitler did you?	02:34
kanzure_	I only cloned Jesus.	02:34
kanzure_	http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://clonejesus.com/	02:34
gene_	good	02:34
gene_	don't ever do that	02:35
kanzure_	Oh please.	02:35
gene_	and especially don't ever revive his brain in that cryopreservation facility in the amazon	02:35
fenn	i thought it was located on the dark side of the moon	02:35
kanzure_	First, whether or not the clone of Hitler would grow up to be the same Adolf we all know and love is a hard enough task of its own; secondly, whether or not there already exists an Adolf of equal or greater magnitude is unknown too.	02:35
gene_	that's just where the nazi moon base is	02:36
gene_	ok	02:37
kanzure_	Blah. If anyone wonders why my sentences suck so much, it's because in irssi I lose track of what I wrote previously, I'm going somewhere with this, let me send it first to see what I'm saying. ;-)	02:37
gene_	so Kanzure	02:37
kanzure_	?	02:37
nsh	what happened to "no philosophy"?	02:37
nsh	:-)	02:37
gene_	would a fully automatic catapult be cooler than a semiautomatic catapult that launches a bunch of projectiles at once?	02:38
kanzure_	nsh: re: Hitler? I am pretty sure gene_'s comment about not reviving Hitler was philosophically motivated. Blame him, blame him!	02:38
kanzure_	gene_: Fully automatic catapult, with reloading and all? Would definitely be more awesome.	02:38
gene_	philosophically?	02:38
nsh	ok	02:38
gene_	yeah	02:38
gene_	it's the reloading part that is hard	02:39
kanzure_	However, if by some strange chance we can make it so that kids have to do lots of ridiculous manual labor to load the pigs, then that's another option worth investigating.	02:39
gene_	especially with our ammo	02:39
kanzure_	Something cryptic, like solving a decoder ring mystery followed by chasing Lucky down a trail or something retarded.	02:39
fenn	even better if it worked both ways, like a rotovator.. oh wait! that's why i wanted to go to grad school... cough	02:39
gene_	hmmm...	02:39
gene_	rotovator	02:39
gene_	rotation	02:39
fenn	tether catapult	02:39
gene_	nope won't work	02:39
fenn	picks up bags of moon dust and flings it into orbit	02:40
gene_	my projectile	02:40
gene_	is plastic pigs	02:40
fenn	then uses the momentum gained to decelerate an incoming payload	02:40
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/	02:40
fenn	perhaps you've heard of a trebuchet? this is similar in concept but going at mach 15	02:41
gene_	I can't think of a way to load one pig at a time	02:41
fenn	and 100km long	02:41
gene_	without jams	02:41
kanzure_	gene_: Just go into the library and fetch a book of schematics/drawings.	02:41
kanzure_	I actually haven't seen these books before, but I suspect they exist.	02:41
fenn	put the pigs in standardized containers such as a 5 gal bucket	02:41
fenn	then eject the "shells" after launching	02:41
kanzure_	fenn: No, different context.	02:41
gene_	i've already tried Kmodl	02:41
kanzure_	fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/	02:42
fenn	huh?	02:42
fenn	i cant read any of those files	02:42
kanzure_	fenn: It's the ME302 reverse engineering project and gene_'s subsequent redesign.	02:42
kanzure_	fenn: There should be a JPG or PNG there or something that shows a picture of it.	02:42
gene_	which is going to kickass thank you very much	02:42
fenn	something wrong with the jpg	02:43
fenn	you actually have a class on reverse engineering?	02:43
gene_	believe it!	02:43
fenn	i must say that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard	02:43
kanzure_	fenn: I just added another JPG file in there. Try that.	02:44
gene_	I know it is	02:44
gene_	I am just a program	02:44
kanzure_	fenn: yep.	02:44
kanzure_	first mechanical engineering course is on drawing stuff by hand and reverse engineering.	02:44
fenn	so instead of teaching you concepts and causing you to form problem solving abilities, they feed you dogma and reward imitation?	02:45
kanzure_	and the reverse engineering is really just a single team project, not anything really intense (other than the drawing stuff by hand)	02:45
gene_	yeah	02:45
gene_	but since I hate dogma	02:45
* fenn mumbles something about taiwan		02:45
gene_	and have free access to a 3d printer	02:46
kanzure_	that's why I have so much crap in http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/ :-/	02:46
fenn	pff 3d printer	02:46
fenn	are you going to 3d print a catapult?	02:46
gene_	I am making(hopefully) a fully automatic catapult	02:46
gene_	yeah, why not?	02:46
fenn	don't you think it's a bit large?	02:47
gene_	no	02:47
kanzure_	fenn: The idea is for us to model the part into STL files and to email it to the instructor so that he can push it into the queue for the printer	02:47
kanzure_	fenn: see the JPG I just added to the dir,	02:47
kanzure_	it's not that large.	02:47
gene_	ok bye	02:47
fenn	still downloading	02:47
fenn	or something	02:47
kanzure_	yeah it's large.	02:48
kanzure_	oh crap, abort. You don't like large images, that's right.	02:48
fenn	i can handle a 1.6MB jpeg	02:48
fenn	but your upload is like 2kB/s	02:48
fenn	its the 16000 pixel .png's that screw things up	02:49
kanzure_	fdjkldajflkajfa;	02:49
kanzure_	I have my other box wired up at the moment	02:49
kanzure_	my down from kernel.org is like 2 KB/sec too..	02:49
kanzure_	6000 bytes, my mistake	02:50
kanzure_	Okay. Should be better now.	02:50
fenn	nope	02:51
kanzure_	fenn: And now?	02:52
kanzure_	I dhclient'ed myself.	02:52
fenn	er, how am i supposed to be testing? i'm just re-downloading the file	02:53
kanzure_	well supposedly it's a function of how much you complain	02:53
gene_	you don't have a very good machine library kanzure	02:53
kanzure_	also, supposedly you haven't finished the download because it was at 2 kb/sec	02:53
gene_	though it is cool	02:54
kanzure_	gene_: What are you talking about?	02:54
kanzure_	Machine library?	02:54
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/ <- that stuff?	02:54
fenn	re-partially-downloading then	02:54
gene_	machine	02:54
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/sldpart_archive/ <- Has some rips of large websites.	02:55
gene_	nevermind	02:56
gene_	using kmodl	02:56
kanzure_	kmoddl?	02:57
gene_	yeah	02:58
kanzure_	Is this just an image gallery, or is there some sort of XML or data set?	02:58
fenn	i believe they had some kind of kinematic description language	02:59
gene_	it has movies and cad models	02:59
gene_	all I care about	02:59
fenn	http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/aboutmeta3.php	03:00
fenn	"simulation"	03:00
kanzure_	gene_: At some point you are going to fail because one cannot manually process all information.	03:00
kanzure_	Just saying.	03:00
gene_	http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/resources.php?id=186	03:00
kanzure_	Modeling information is important ;-)	03:00
kanzure_	Kinematic description language. Excellent.	03:01
gene_	I am designing something ok	03:01
kanzure_	?	03:01
kanzure_	Are you asking me if I'm okay?	03:01
fenn	i wonder if i made up the memory that they had a description language	03:03
gene_	ok	03:03
kanzure_	It shouldn't be hard to do it. It looks like they have narrowed it down to "200 fundamental motions".	03:03
fenn	it certainly seems like a straightforward sort of thing	03:03
fenn	200!	03:03
kanzure_	or 200 fundamental mechanisms or whatever	03:03
gene_	huh?	03:03
fenn	bah	03:03
fenn	who cares about mechanisms	03:03
kanzure_	Well, excuse me, I don't mean to say that	03:03
fenn	that's like "200 fundamental prime numbers"	03:04
kanzure_	I don't mean to say they have the 'axioms'	03:04
kanzure_	yeah	03:04
kanzure_	wait, what?	03:04
kanzure_	I'm fairly certain it's a bit more complicated than just a single unit repeated over and over again in different ways	03:04
kanzure_	I'd be happy if it's not.	03:04
fenn	i mean mechanisms can be factored and refactored	03:04
fenn	and there are unique mechanisms that are so complex that nobody has bothered to build them	03:04
gene_	I do	03:04
gene_	name one fenn?	03:05
fenn	and so listing the unfactorable mechanisms is an endless task	03:05
kanzure_	fenn: Are these .. cross-turtle layer structures? I don't know how to convey this.	03:05
fenn	aroo?	03:05
fenn	define "these"	03:05
kanzure_	and cross-layer would be unfactorable	03:05
kanzure_	(?)	03:05
fenn	hmm. kmoddl is just about chunks of solids moving around in various patterns	03:06
fenn	nothing terribly cross disciplinary about that	03:06
fenn	unless you make a mechanical computer or something	03:06
gene_	I've seen one	03:06
gene_	the diff engine	03:07
kanzure_	I mean to say that if there's not a single repeating element that makes up all of the elements in their library, then they have been visited by the Complexity Fairy.	03:07
gene_	I don't care	03:07
kanzure_	gene_: I'm talking with fenn.	03:07
fenn	why a single repeating element?	03:07
gene_	I just want to figure out how to reload plastic pigs into catapult	03:07
kanzure_	gene_: (just suggesting why you probably don't care)	03:07
fenn	a spring is not a bearing?	03:07
gene_	it can be	03:08
kanzure_	fenn: yes, so if it boils down to a set of principle mathematical equations for the motions	03:08
gene_	but i don't recommend it	03:08
kanzure_	then there we go. Otherwise it's mysterious and odd.	03:08
kanzure_	in the bad sort of way.	03:08
kanzure_	A spring can be easily mathematically modeled :), and I don't recall barings actually	03:08
fenn	uh. hrmm. i know stewart platforms (hexapods) are usually solved iterative/numerically, but i dont know if there exists an analytical solution or not	03:09
kanzure_	This would be a good example of graphsynth/that-set-of-work because if given a set of elements, even just equations, that can be put together to make a certain type of physically moving system, then	03:09
kanzure_	cariographical descriptions can be matched to the underlying 'genomes'	03:09
fenn	sure, a kinematic network	03:09
gene_	there exist weird solutions	03:10
fenn	cariographical?	03:10
kanzure_	gene_: Yep, always, in graphsynth there's weird solutions. A meat slicer crossed with a bazooka.	03:10
kanzure_	fenn: Coriographical?	03:10
kanzure_	kinematical is better.	03:10
fenn	ah. choreography	03:10
kanzure_	choreographical. Yes. Anywho, I've heard of kinematic networks before. I had forgotten about them. Have I just stumbled upon them again and have repeated work by accident? :(	03:11
fenn	choreography is more related to swarming behaviors/synchronization	03:11
gene_	a meat slice bazooka?	03:11
gene_	hahahahaha	03:11
gene_	I want to see that	03:11
gene_	input meat	03:12
kanzure_	gene_: Shortly the system will also be generating (crude) 3D models.	03:12
gene_	output high velocity sandwiches	03:12
kanzure_	By 'crude' I mean that sometimes the system won't know how exactly to make the shapes fit together without some patch work algorithms (which makes it 'impure' but whatever - I'm ok with that)	03:12
fenn	gene_: some kid in my high school stole a go-kart, removed the safety cage, then took a high speed joyride down a bike path. unfortunately for him the path was closed (it was night time) and there was a steel cable across the path, and he was sliced into bits.	03:13
kanzure_	fenn: To what extent was he sliced?	03:13
kanzure_	A single cable, so only two bits, yes?	03:13
kanzure_	I suppose I'd have to know his body orientation and the cable orientation.	03:14
fenn	well, i dont know the details of course, but supposedly he was beheaded	03:14
kanzure_	This wasn't some parents' attempt to keep you indoors?	03:14
kanzure_	"LIttle Jimmy was beheaded last week doing that, you know." etc.	03:14
fenn	i heard about it a couple years after i graduated, apparently my friend had a grudge against him because he stole his stereo and smashed up his car's windshield	03:15
fenn	nice guy eh	03:15
kanzure_	fenn: Can kinematic networks be linked to the resulting motions that they produce? I mean, given a network diagram of different movements, does it follow the overall motion that will be generated?	03:15
fenn	uh. "does it follow" meaning "can you predict"?	03:16
kanzure_	Yes.	03:16
fenn	sounds like a math proof	03:17
kanzure_	Are these just force diagrams?	03:17
* kanzure_ is visually impaired at the moment.		03:17
fenn	no, rigid kinematics are ideal objects, they dont flex or break	03:17
fenn	makes the math easy	03:17
fenn	easier	03:18
fenn	i guess a force diagram is a superset of kinematics	03:18
fenn	so, i was trying to come up with a kinematics description language for EMC so you didnt have to hand-code it every time	03:21
fenn	apparently OROCOS tried this but ended up doing custom code for each family in the end (they only made cartesian and robot arms though)	03:22
gene_	cartesian?	03:22
fenn	xyz	03:22
gene_	I know	03:23
gene_	what cartesian is	03:23
fenn	then what are you asking	03:23
fenn	"cartesian kinematics" means linear movements on perpendicular axes	03:23
fenn	as opposed to something weird like a stewart platform or a robot arm	03:24
fenn	however as soon as you add rotary joints it gets complicated	03:24
fenn	we will need kinematics description language/compiler in order to effectively use nanobots, and maybe even just for skdb-type "will this work" questions	03:27
kanzure_	this is a different type of "will this work" question though, sort of	03:28
kanzure_	first type of "will this work" is just making sure the turtles are friendly with one another on the same layers of abstraction and such	03:28
kanzure_	but also "will this work" in the sense of evaluating a given circuit/design for common stuff. uh, energy, usefulness, and apparently also overall kinematics	03:29
kanzure_	these things probably can't be unified so I'm sure this will be a fairly lengthy make script as usual.	03:29
fenn	cant be unified, why not?	03:29
kanzure_	as in they aren't all the same thing	03:29
kanzure_	i.e., ideally it'd be nice to be able to just include those factors in the rules beforehand, instead of checking your work after you've made a design or something	03:30
fenn	many of the same concepts apply to different engineering disciplines	03:30
gene_	I built something weird fenn	03:30
kanzure_	no doubt.	03:30
gene_	a polar printer	03:30
fenn	ie. efficiency, performance, requirements, MTBF, yadda	03:31
gene_	somewhat far from keyboard at moment	03:31
gene_	ignore ramblings plz	03:31
fenn	gene_: what happens to theta as you cross over the centerline?	03:31
fenn	"gimbal lock" is a kinematic singularity	03:31
gene_	it goes to zero	03:31
fenn	and plays hell with robot control software	03:31
fenn	gene_: it doesn't go to zero, it assumes every value	03:32
gene_	that isn't the hard part though	03:32
gene_	the hard part is maintaining the same vel	03:32
gene_	it doesn't	03:32
gene_	it never does	03:32
fenn	uh huh	03:32
gene_	it goes 361	03:32
gene_	and over	03:33
fenn	what if it's on the other side of the line	03:33
gene_	if it gets to high	03:33
gene_	huh?	03:33
gene_	oh	03:33
gene_	I'm still trying to make it do lines	03:34
fenn	ah, well, dont give up	03:34
gene_	then r is negative	03:34
gene_	well	03:34
gene_	my printer is miles away from my current location	03:34
gene_	and in a cartesian configuration	03:34
xp_prg	how do I convert a string to double?	03:36
fenn	(double) "foo"	03:36
fenn	er, wait, what language?	03:36
xp_prg	oh oops wrong channel	03:36
xp_prg	python	03:36
fenn	no such thing as a double in python	03:36
fenn	use int("foo") or float("foo")	03:37
xp_prg	kanzure__ I just made interactive script to add species to sbml file, want to see the script?	03:40
kanzure_	As alyways, yes. Do you think my answer is going to change?	03:41
xp_prg	don't know, its not complete so was wondering if it would irritate to you see it at this point	03:41
gene_	sweet, add deinococcus radiodurans	03:42
kanzure_	gene_: That's not what he's doing.	03:42
kanzure_	'species' are not species.	03:42
gene_	huh?	03:43
kanzure_	Think of it like 'chemical species'.	03:43
gene_	oh	03:43
kanzure_	Just because it uses the word species doesn't mean they run around and stuff. yeah	03:43
gene_	sorry	03:43
kanzure_	confusing/stupid terminology anyway	03:43
gene_	indeed	03:43
gene_	every word needs an address	03:43
gene_	ipv6 or something	03:43
xp_prg	ok sent it!	03:44
kanzure_	If you have a technical infrastructure, why send words when you can just use the ISA?	03:44
kanzure_	*use the ISA directly?	03:44
xp_prg	what?	03:44
fenn	you mean API?	03:44
kanzure_	gene_ brought up the concept of using ipv6 for the mapping of words to locations,	03:45
kanzure_	No, I mean ISA because it means some bit address => to some function.	03:45
xp_prg	kanzure__ what do you think?	03:45
kanzure_	APIs are built on top of ISAs (and a lot of other things in between)	03:45
kanzure_	xp_prg: I don't receive email this quickly.	03:45
fenn	instruction set architecture is an API for the chip	03:46
fenn	it doesnt make sense for things that dont use 'instructions' though	03:46
fenn	i think i see what you're getting at though, break the ambiguity of words by referring to a specific definition	03:47
gene_	more of derailed conversation	03:47
kanzure_	apt-get -> you get software and function, not Shakespeare.	03:47
kanzure_	xp_prg: Ok. I saw it.	03:48
xp_prg	what do you think man?!	03:48
xp_prg	is that how you wanted it?	03:48
fenn	"people might intellectually know the next step in a task but have a much easier time starting it if someone tells them"	03:50
fenn	i must have quit my sysadmin job because of the constant "little thing" support requests	03:52
bkero	That's why you get a flunkie.	03:54
gene_	did you name your boxen?	03:54
bkero	His name is gilbert	03:54
gene_	ok	03:55
gene_	mine is U-235	03:55
bkero	Wait, what box?	03:55
gene_	my box	03:55
bkero	Oh	03:55
gene_	that I am using	03:55
bkero	You mean do I name my boxen?	03:55
gene_	ok	03:55
gene_	red	03:55
gene_	green	03:55
bkero	Yea, I have daedalus, maetel, mach, omni, echelon, xanadu, shangrila	03:55
gene_	filter	03:55
gene_	no	03:55
xp_prg	kanzure_ dude you going to answer me or what?	03:55
kanzure_	xp_prg: Get back to work.	03:56
fenn	bkero: maetel from "adieu 999"?	03:56
xp_prg	is it along the lines of what your looking for though?	03:56
kanzure_	xp_prg: I don't care about the input, just get all of the fields included that were in interface1,2,3.php. The input stuff is not bad.	03:56
gene_	those words i typed were random	03:56
xp_prg	ok	03:57
fenn	i guess there arent any other maetel's	03:57
bkero	fenn: Heh yea	03:57
* bkero nerds		03:57
gene_	adieu 999	03:58
gene_	what is that?	03:58
fenn	that was a sweet anime, though i never understood wtf was with the train	03:58
gene_	ok	03:58
gene_	thought so	03:58
bkero	Well	03:58
bkero	It's	03:58
gene_	train in space	03:58
bkero	Adieu Galaxy Express 999	03:58
fenn	sort of like a dream	03:58
gene_	ok	03:58
gene_	that's more than I need to know	03:58
fenn	a dream where you're riding a train falling into a black hole	03:58
bkero	Which is a sequal to Galaxy Express 999	03:58
gene_	I am not a big fan of physically in accurate anime	03:58
gene_	especially this steampunk one I saw the other day	03:59
bkero	Which is a modern(ish) movie made from an anime series from 1978	03:59
fenn	oh i'm thinking of the 1978 one	04:00
gene_	the guns on the ships would have generated a torque on them causing them to spin	04:00
fenn	where the machine civilization's dirty secret is their power pills are soylent green	04:00
bkero	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq-b_iNrQaQ	04:00
bkero	Same thing	04:00
bkero	THe movies are condensed tv series	04:00
gene_	augh!	04:01
gene_	bad physics	04:01
kanzure_	Heh. I remember the opening to Adieu Galaxy Express 999.	04:01
gene_	train should be spining	04:01
bkero	Oh my http://epii.info/anime/2008%20Katsucon/Galaxy%20Express%20999%20-%20Maetel.jpg	04:02
fenn	bad physics is probably why i didnt like the original gundam	04:02
bkero	Giant robots is why I didn't like gundam	04:03
gene_	it is a bit more accurate	04:03
gene_	but still bad nonetheless	04:03
fenn	bkero: what's wrong with giant robots?	04:03
gene_	they are nuclear powered	04:04
fenn	fusion powered i believe	04:04
gene_	and probably have sufficient strength to weight ratio	04:04
bkero	Dunno, always seemed rather lame	04:04
bkero	I guess I watched voltron as a kid, and now it's just silly	04:04
gene_	you seen LoGH?	04:04
fenn	later gundam series tried to fix the science up so it made sense	04:05
gene_	legend of galatic heroes?	04:05
bkero	Tried	04:05
bkero	I'm still a big fan of Eva though. 8)	04:05
gene_	same	04:05
bkero	Eva doesn't have any robots :/	04:05
gene_	what	04:05
fenn	bkero: there is a good reason for humanoid military robots, which is that humans can pilot them as second nature	04:05
gene_	's wrong with giant biorobots	04:06
* kanzure_ avoids a rant about mechas not being robots.		04:06
fenn	wah	04:06
bkero	No mecha's in eva either :P	04:06
kanzure_	"Mobile Suite Gundam". Not "Mobile Robot". :-/	04:06
* kanzure_ runs before he rants.		04:06
gene_	and a giant underground geofront with walls made of protein	04:06
fenn	no? i havent seen it, what are the girls in skin-tight rubber suits for then?	04:07
bkero	gene_: They found the geofront, replicated it. Walls made of protein? Where?	04:07
gene_	protein wall	04:07
bkero	cite?	04:07
gene_	http://www.dark-kingdom.org/NREhtml/Scripts/NREv13.html	04:07
bkero	Erm	04:08
bkero	That's fanfiction	04:08
gene_	crap	04:08
gene_	I couldn't tell	04:08
bkero	Yea dude	04:09
bkero	really bad fanfiction	04:09
fenn	kanzure_: gundam suits have autopilot and limited AI, does this not make them robots?	04:10
gene_	see pribnow box	04:10
gene_	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_glossary#Second_Impact	04:10
fenn	they shouldnt be called suits anyway, since they have a cockpit and are controlled with joysticks	04:11
fenn	contrast with say, GUGES	04:11
fenn	er, landmates	04:11
kanzure_	Clearly the naming could be better when classifying animes and so on.	04:11
kanzure_	I'm sure the Wikipedia contributors have solved it somewhat.	04:12
gene_	WARNING CONVERSATION HAS DIVERGED INTO ANIME NOMECLATURE ARGUMENT	04:12
fenn	rawr	04:12
bkero	gene_: It's a small room with protein-covered walls	04:12
kanzure_	this is the INTERNET and this SHIT is IMPORTANT	04:12
fenn	gene build me a small efficient simple reliable inexpensive proportional hydraulic valve	04:13
gene_	the internet is serious business	04:13
fenn	if we dont do it, who will?	04:13
bkero	srs	04:13
gene_	please select payment type	04:13
fenn	whuffie	04:13
gene_	I am sorry, but this unit doesn't accept fictional currencies	04:14
bkero	I won't really debate anime nomeclature with you folks, but I would suggest sitting through the action-y 13 first Evangelion episodes, and really enjoy the last ones.	04:14
kanzure_	I didn't like Evangelion as much as I would have liked to enjoy it.	04:14
gene_	they should never have tried to expand evangelion	04:14
bkero	Expand?	04:14
kanzure_	fenn: gene is still "for profit". :(	04:15
bkero	They did some lame spinoff	04:15
bkero	I really enjoyed End of Evangelion though.	04:15
gene_	I watched the first of the end of evangelion	04:15
gene_	and then stopped	04:15
bkero	There's a second end of evangelion?	04:15
gene_	no	04:15
gene_	you know what happens in the beginning of the end of evangelion	04:15
bkero	It's definitely wtfworthy	04:16
gene_	yes	04:16
gene_	yes it is	04:16
bkero	I like wtfworthies.	04:16
bkero	Which would explain why my other favorites are Lain and Haibane Renmei	04:16
gene_	so what do you want your valve to be made out of?	04:17
fenn	a commodity	04:17
gene_	you have chosen: solid fluorine is this correct?	04:18
fenn	apparently you dont understand the meaning of 'commodity'	04:18
fenn	let's try a buzzword: COTS	04:18
gene_	ok	04:18
bkero	Commidity has a definite meaning	04:19
fenn	the more common the better	04:19
fenn	the more standardized the better	04:19
gene_	bulk diamond has automatically been chosen	04:19
fenn	pfff.. engineering students	04:19
kanzure_	..	04:19
gene_	due to failure to specify cost ceiling	04:20
bkero	Did you guys see the tequila synthetic diamonds?	04:20
fenn	i already have a design, i'm just pissed that i have to make up something so simple on my own	04:20
gene_	yes	04:20
gene_	wait	04:20
gene_	you actually need a valve?	04:20
gene_	for a car?	04:20
fenn	tequila on the rocks	04:20
fenn	gene_: for a fucking robot you moron	04:21
gene_	oh	04:21
gene_	ok	04:21
gene_	that changes things then	04:21
gene_	what sort of robot?	04:21
gene_	oh	04:21
fenn	well, starting out with limb replacement prosthetics, moving on to service androids and exoskeletons	04:22
bkero	Use a sphincter? :)	04:22
gene_	small, medium, or large?	04:22
fenn	bkero: the problem in a nutshell is going from low-power electrical signal to a hydraulic flow	04:22
fenn	in a confined space	04:22
fenn	preferably inline with the supply tube	04:23
gene_	sphincters don't work to well at high pressures	04:23
gene_	hmm.....	04:23
bkero	You're looking for a biological valve?	04:24
gene_	well since it's for an exoskeleton I might have to do this for free	04:24
fenn	so, for an android, valve should have a cross sectional area of at least 50% of the supply line while not being much larger than the supply line diameter	04:24
gene_	so	04:24
fenn	bkero: not biological	04:25
gene_	proportional control valve?	04:25
fenn	or something that can be used for proportional control with enough software	04:25
gene_	I don't think a proportional valve will work	04:26
fenn	valves are much tricker than transistors because the fluid has inertia	04:26
bkero	What kind of pressure are you talking about? I use bleeder valves with servos for around 40psi	04:26
bkero	Actually around 120psi in my air compressor	04:26
gene_	9001 psi	04:26
fenn	bleeder valves with servos? what does that look like?	04:26
gene_	23000 psi what oil pipelines run at	04:27
fenn	pressure doesnt have to be so high, 120 might be enough	04:27
bkero	Like http://i21.ebayimg.com/07/s/000/77/47/c83d_1.JPG	04:27
fenn	hydraulics is because air is compressible and sucks for making controlled movements	04:27
bkero	What you want is called a 'boost controller' if you're going for automotive components.	04:28
fenn	what is the black cylinder? looks like an allen head screw	04:28
gene_	fenn you might want to learn about microcompressors	04:28
bkero	Some comes with allans	04:28
bkero	Some come with knobs	04:28
gene_	really damn small compressors	04:29
bkero	Just google image search 'manual boost controller'	04:29
fenn	wtf does this have to do with going from electronic to hydraulic signal?	04:29
bkero	It's a valve.	04:30
bkero	Weren't you wanting an electronically controllable valve?	04:30
fenn	but there's no electrical parts...	04:30
bkero	A controllable valve :P	04:31
fenn	sigh	04:31
bkero	Nevermind.	04:31
gene_	kanzure	04:44
gene_	I got it	04:44
kanzure_	?	04:44
gene_	I figured out the reloading mechanism	04:44
gene_	or the loading mechanism	04:45
gene_	it's going to be hard to reload though	04:46
gene_	but nevertheless	04:47
gene_	it could have a sucess rate of 70%	04:48
gene_	success rate estimated by brainsense tm	04:51
fenn	cough evolutionary bias cough	04:51
gene_	indeed	04:58
gene_	though I come from a long line of engineers that can trace our lineage back to the greek automata makers	05:03
gene_	just kidding	05:04
fenn	now if this aint the damnedest	05:08
fenn	There is a subgroup of autistic people who get along in life by imitating non-autistic people. Imitation can become a habit. When they learn that they are autistic, or when they start becoming more identified with being autistic, they can almost reflexively throw up another facade: That of imitating themselves to the point of self-caricature, or imitating other autistic people in a fairly superficial way the same way as they	05:08
kanzure_	Do they tend to imitate other animals instead of other people?	05:09
fenn	i do	05:10
kanzure_	First time I read that I was a little confused, I was skimming past that on the page. I thought it said something about neurotypical -> facade	05:10
kanzure_	not autie -> NT-facade -> autie-facade-psychosis-layer	05:10
fenn	she's saying autistic people imitate whoever they identify with	05:11
gene_	huh?	05:11
gene_	imitation is the sincerest form of flattery isn't it?	05:11
fenn	(not surprising considering this is how human society works)	05:11
gene_	and who really cares about social interaction anyway?	05:12
fenn	i do, it's an important part of getting things done	05:12
gene_	aren't we all a bit autistic	05:12
fenn	yes	05:12
gene_	getting what done?	05:12
fenn	you know, stuff	05:12
kanzure_	http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html	05:12
* fenn points at the moon		05:13
gene_	wait a minute	05:13
gene_	that's a sign of autism	05:14
kanzure_	The moon?	05:14
gene_	wanting to do something but not doing it?	05:14
fenn	apparently	05:14
gene_	oh crap	05:14
fenn	<- not a doctor	05:14
kanzure_	It's not in the DSM, but.	05:14
fenn	also, autismism seems to be an internet fad lately.. i dunno how this affects things	05:15
gene_	well	05:15
kanzure_	The internet is made on the backs of autists anyway.	05:15
fenn	"Autistic people can be very much creatures of habit, literally needing objects to stay in the same locations and routines to happen the same way every time in order to function. There is nothing necessarily wrong with this; it is similar to how blind people frequently need things to stay in the same spot in a room so they can find them."	05:17
fenn	sometimes i walk around in the dark because it feels better..	05:17
fenn	knowing where everything is	05:17
kanzure_	fenn: She was practically running a MOO/MUD in her nogan.	05:18
kanzure_	Not quite multi-user I guess.	05:18
fenn	or maybe just, having to turn on lights all the time is pointless when you know where everything is	05:19
gene_	so is this where brain stimulation comes in?	05:19
kanzure_	gene_: Yes and no. Mostly no.	05:19
fenn	gene_: in my understanding the rTMS stuff swamps long range neural communication to approximate an autistic brain	05:20
gene_	hopefully I can find me some memes to make me more productive	05:20
fenn	memes?	05:20
kanzure_	means?	05:20
* fenn thinks gene_ is a filthy memehole		05:21
kanzure_	There are also other uses of rTMS of course.	05:21
fenn	kanzure_: like what?	05:21
gene_	unfortunately I am	05:21
gene_	but I do make my own memes	05:21
kanzure_	rTMS does more than allow for the approximation of autistic brains.	05:21
gene_	for example	05:22
kanzure_	Have I shown you the "Meme Trainers" short story?	05:22
fenn	the church of flying bacon	05:22
gene_	no?	05:22
kanzure_	fenn: That was more a group random number/name generator effect.	05:22
gene_	have you ever launched a meme?	05:22
gene_	I tried to launch one the other day	05:22
kanzure_	You refer to the viral internet type?	05:23
gene_	to crash the phone networks	05:23
gene_	nope	05:23
fenn	silly human, you can't create a meme	05:23
gene_	meatspace	05:23
gene_	I can	05:23
fenn	you just think you can	05:23
gene_	you should see my paper virus	05:23
gene_	it's a replicator made from paper	05:23
gene_	I know	05:23
fenn	sounds oh so scary	05:23
gene_	probably is the case	05:23
fenn	everyone call 1-800-ilovebees	05:24
fenn	heh meme trainers is actually sort of based on the plot of macross	05:25
kanzure_	yes	05:25
kanzure_	Do I have it on my server? I forget.	05:25
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/docs/meme_trainers.html	05:26
kanzure_	Yep. Neat.	05:26
kanzure_	gene_: There you go.	05:26
fenn	you know your organization system sucks when you have to google search your own server	05:26
kanzure_	Nah, I tried /docs/ first.	05:27
gene_	what the fuck	05:30
gene_	memetrainers is messed up	05:30
kanzure_	Formatting?	05:31
gene_	no	05:31
gene_	the whole thing	05:31
gene_	http://n2.cdn.spikedhumor.com/1/652000/159871_bicycle_feet_1_vw.jpg	05:32
fenn	hah battle angel alita in 1910	05:33
gene_	I don't get it	05:34
gene_	my mind is going	05:34
kanzure_	It's fiction.	05:35
gene_	no that 1910 part	05:35
fenn	alita = a cyborg with powered two-wheel roller skates	05:35
fenn	1910 is a year	05:35
gene_	ok	05:35
gene_	I am not that 'cultured' so to say	05:36
fenn	i cant seem to find any pictures on this dang fangled internet	05:36
gene_	well I have to goggle out	05:36
fenn	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorball	05:38
fenn	ah finally a decent pic http://xuxu.fr/data/note/gunnm-motorball.jpg	05:39
fenn	rawr of course it wont load.. http://www.cannonspike.com/CamFan/miscellaneous/gally-cammy/motorball-alita.gif	05:40
kanzure_	"Coping with the inertia of task paralysis"	05:42
fenn	dont mock my manga obsession	05:42
fenn	why is it that good ideas almost invariably get totally screwed up in the translation from book to film?	05:43
kanzure_	Heh, the author of that "Coping with .." article knows the power of surface space for keeping things on top.	05:44
fenn	haha "autism hypochondria"	05:45
kanzure_	The rest of the article is crap.	05:46
kanzure_	"I must move myself. Yes. Movement is the secret. The universe moves as I move. As I move, so I move the universe."	05:49
kanzure_	Zindell threw that in as one of the final revelations in the Neverness saga.	05:49
gene_	oh	05:49
gene_	toobad power skates are illegal	05:50
kanzure_	Danlo wi Soli Ringess becomes paralyzed underneath the Eternal Computer, controlled by evil mastermind Hanuman and his plan to convert the galaxies into computronium for his simulations of a "better reality".	05:51
kanzure_	"The longest journey begins with the first step, unless you can fly." "The trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Oops, circles.	05:53
* fenn has bicycles on his feet, your argument is irrelevant		05:54
gene_	it would be much better if we converted the whole galaxy to computorium	05:56
gene_	admit it	05:56
kanzure_	No.	05:56
gene_	what about custom made planets	05:59
gene_	with cheesecakes the size of cities	05:59
kanzure_	Terraforming, megascale engineering, artificial planets aren't the same thing -- they're not cancerous attempts at wiping the galaxy.	05:59
gene_	well then there are plenty of other galaxies we could use	06:00
kanzure_	Cancer wouldn't be limited to a single galaxy by the nature of cancer.	06:00
gene_	i mean	06:01
kanzure_	Hm. Now that I'm making some money perhaps I'll seek out David's tutoring.	06:02
gene_	you build all the terraformed planets in teh galaxies you don't convert to computorium	06:02
fenn	unless you happen to be living in a galaxy that got converted to computronium	06:04
fenn	in which case you are no longer alive as a physical entity	06:04
gene_	what if you agreed to it	06:04
fenn	what if you didn't agree to it	06:04
kanzure_	This isn't about ethics of agreement or anything. That's not my point.	06:04
gene_	then your galaxy doesn't get converted	06:04
fenn	whose galaxy is it anyway?	06:04
gene_	hubert's	06:05
kanzure_	Ownership isn't the issue either.	06:05
gene_	what is	06:05
kanzure_	Rather it's an understanding that reality is the most optimal way of "doing things". By this I mean that it would take more than the galaxies to simulate the very same galaxies.	06:05
fenn	depends what you want to do	06:05
kanzure_	Certainly.	06:05
fenn	galaxies are very good at simulating galaxies...	06:06
fenn	but not so good for factoring numbers	06:06
kanzure_	Humans seem to be factoring numbers, fenn.	06:06
fenn	huh?	06:06
kanzure_	humans -> subset of a galaxy	06:06
gene_	well yeah	06:06
fenn	humans suck at factoring numbers	06:06
fenn	the fact that we can do it at all is amazing	06:07
gene_	but you can do so much more with computorium than galaxies	06:07
kanzure_	You can't do the galaxies.	06:07
gene_	'il;jkdfsrtfyguoiopipop	06:07
kanzure_	The galaxies were doing the galaxies, and all of the possibilities and physical phenomena therein.	06:07
fenn	oh come off it	06:07
kanzure_	Then a spec of dust should be able to predict the entirety of all of the galaxies and give you the ultimate 'cheats' or whatever.	06:10
kanzure_	That brings up so much crap :-/	06:10
fenn	sure, all you need is to equip your speck of computronium with a FTL drive	06:11
fenn	this effectively turns it into a time machine, giving it infinite computational power	06:11
fenn	actually it might work if you had an infinite amount of energy -> 1.0*C	06:12
fenn	but the universe isnt quite infinite so it doesnt need to be infinite	06:13
fenn	anyway, if you think the universe is "efficient" at being a universe, that's fine	06:13
fenn	it doesnt have any bearing on what "should" be done	06:13
kanzure_	Bullshit, go live in your "Second Life" resort and I'll still be here as the angry sysadmin supporting your stupid fantasies about the way reality "should" be.	06:14
kanzure_	No matter how deep you go into the simulation, you're not subplanting(? overwriting) the substrate. Despite Egan's "Permutation City" (or so I hear - this is from a friend, not from me reading it)	06:15
* fenn happens to side with the carter-zimmermans		06:16
fenn	not fanatically so	06:16
kanzure_	?	06:16
fenn	oops wrong egan book	06:17
kanzure_	Remember Orwell? It's like a boot smashing into your face over and over again. "Yes, of course this is the one true reality. Of course, of course there couldn't be another way."	06:17
fenn	carter-zimmerman clade believed that man's true purpose was to understand the cosmos	06:17
fenn	despite this, they lived as software in a VR environment because it was most efficient/secure/free etc	06:18
kanzure_	"Preserve memory above all." or some such.	06:18
kanzure_	I don't doubt that ..	06:19
kanzure_	but VR is still context-dependent on the substrates in which it was running on	06:19
kanzure_	Look, just living in a VR doesn't make the fundamental reality vanish or anything ;-)	06:19
fenn	sure, i'm not arguing that at all	06:19
kanzure_	and the fact that you converted an entire galaxy into planets for "your" simulation	06:19
fenn	is wrong?	06:19
fenn	the planets are there, they're real	06:20
kanzure_	um, sorry, into computronium, not planets	06:20
fenn	it might be boring to an outsider	06:20
fenn	it might appear as a threat to "god's will" because obviously god wanted plasma filaments and black holes	06:21
kanzure_	No, it's not that either.	06:21
fenn	it might appear as a threat to sentient life who are stuck in a particular location for some reason	06:22
kanzure_	It is a mistake to confuse histories.	06:22
fenn	i dont follow that	06:22
kanzure_	I'm having trouble at the moment, but perhaps 'facade' covers it.	06:26
kanzure_	I used to have a good line for this situation, but I'm tired and hungry :/	06:26
fenn	it's turtles all the way down, dude	06:28
kanzure_	;..,~0k[[[78jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj	07:36
gene_	kqwerty?	07:39
gene_	what's a good magazine capacity kanzure?	07:41
gene_	guess you aren't nocturnal like I am	07:43
kanzure_	I've been having somesleeping problems recently. It'll be fixed soon.	08:08
bkero	the fuck? http://xanadu.meetup.com/1/	08:35
UtopiahGHML	visual for biobricks : http://www.artadox.com/nathan-sawaya-the-art-of-the-brick/	13:51
kanzure_	Have any of us ranted about brain stimulation via infrared LEDs?	14:57
UtopiahGHML	?	14:58
kanzure_	I'm wondering if it's just something that I've forgotten about.	14:58
kanzure_	I've received an email from an individual who's telling me it's the most important thing he's come across.	14:58
UtopiahGHML	did he try it?	14:59
kanzure_	Yes.	14:59
kanzure_	:)	14:59
UtopiahGHML	Is it a good sign? :P	14:59
kanzure_	bavariancyclistsneurohackingdivision <- Fuck.	15:22
kanzure_	I'll have to send them an introduction sometime later today. (I guess before I finish the reply to Michel re: OS space stuff)	15:26
kanzure_	Hrm. I don't have an overall index to all of the 'work' I've done re: brain stuff. I'd imagine a few links are in order to the /books/mousebrain/ dir, the /books/Biology/neuro/ dir, /~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/ dir, bookmark dump, log dump from this channel, and uhh, some other things.	15:31
kanzure_	my brain visualizer	15:31
UtopiahGHML	you need to remap all the content, like you do within your non-internet brain	15:32
kanzure_	re-mapping sucks. Half the time you forget that you remapped at all.	15:32
UtopiahGHML	that's one of the most demanding task for me	15:32
kanzure_	Refactoring, also, sucks.	15:32
UtopiahGHML	rewiring a network properly :/	15:32
kanzure_	"properly" bleh	15:33
kanzure_	I'll probably just save the email to the website anyway and that's the "refactoring".	15:33
kanzure_	(more like a consolidation)	15:33
UtopiahGHML	luckily the semantic web tools will solve all the problem of the world.	15:33
kanzure_	??	15:34
kanzure_	What are you smoking?	15:34
UtopiahGHML	want some?	15:34
UtopiahGHML	remember	15:34
UtopiahGHML	Yes we can!	15:34
UtopiahGHML	:P	15:34
kanzure_	nsh: For context, Utopiah over here just admitted he thinks that the 'semantic web' will solve all of the problems of the world. :/	15:34
UtopiahGHML	Yes we can!	15:35
* nsh makes nondescript noises		15:35
kanzure_	"The economy, my dear, is just a system. Not a deity."	18:52
UtopiahGHML	Yes we can!	19:22
kanzure_	Are you trying to be funny or are you aware that you're being stupid?	19:23
UtopiahGHML	You are not a believer in the new world president	19:24
UtopiahGHML	he'll change everything!	19:24
kanzure_	New World president?	19:24
bkero	what	19:24
UtopiahGHML	you know that "Yes we can" Change and stuff like that was Obama campain motto, right?	19:25
kanzure_	But why repeat political bullshit in here?	19:25
UtopiahGHML	because irony and cinism is a form of humor appreciated by many	19:25
UtopiahGHML	(for those who get it at least).	19:26
UtopiahGHML	guess it can be less funny when you're actually in the US.	19:29
kanzure_	:(	19:29
kanzure_	"Our sun has gone out. We can make a new one with our lava fusion cauldron and three sun seeds, but they keep burning out before we can ge tthem in the pot." Ack.. brain .. hurt.	19:30
UtopiahGHML	kanzure_: if you want to make witty comment or even constructive critics Id appreciate some on http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=Content.CognitiveDevelopmentFailure	19:37
kanzure_	I'm not on a box with a browser at the moment. If you email it to me, you more guarantee that I'll eventually follow the link.	19:37
UtopiahGHML	maybe you could have a page where we could paste you links, like a page on your wiki or sth	19:38
kanzure_	Sure, go ahead.	19:38
UtopiahGHML	hmmm I can't find your wiki on heybryan	19:40
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Links	19:41
UtopiahGHML	thanks	19:41
UtopiahGHML	updated	19:43
UtopiahGHML	(WoW Obama http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XJseql2u5l0/SRSm9CLnzPI/AAAAAAAADGc/yE-L3wN5xOU/s1600-h/obama_wow.jpg )	19:55
UtopiahGHML	is there a webpage that evaluate tranhumanist projects?	19:56
UtopiahGHML	the most promising one, the fastest, etc...	19:56
UtopiahGHML	eventually based on sth like InTrade	19:56
kanzure_	We're kind of it, UtopiahGHML .	19:57
fenn	haha based on intrade	19:57
UtopiahGHML	ok, what's the url of the result?	19:57
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap was an attempt to track all of it.	19:57
kanzure_	intrade is what?	19:57
kanzure_	UtopiahGHML: The Roadmap wiki page. But that's old. :-/ You can try to clean it up I guess.	19:57
fenn	UtopiahGHML: i'll sell you some stock in molecular nanotech	19:57
kanzure_	hah	19:57
UtopiahGHML	market base system	19:57
UtopiahGHML	and you can see the impact on each news with the valuation	19:58
kanzure_	oh please.	19:58
kanzure_	Everybody has one of those.	19:58
UtopiahGHML	ok, so where is the up-to-date H+ project listing?	19:59
kanzure_	I thought I had a list of projects on the Roadmap page.	19:59
UtopiahGHML	(doesn't have to be some trendy scoreboard)	19:59
fenn	so, what is the value of this opinion anyway?	19:59
kanzure_	fenn: well, a full listing of "related stuff" is always nice I guess	20:00
fenn	of course, but it takes a lot of work	20:00
* kanzure_ glances at his bookmarks		20:00
UtopiahGHML	fenn: well explained arguments would be better than opinion, especially if you don't know the field of the project	20:00
kanzure_	the majority of it is not cross-referenced.	20:00
kanzure_	arguments?	20:00
kanzure_	wtf?	20:00
fenn	UtopiahGHML: i dont think the human race is at that level of knowledge modeling yet	20:01
fenn	unless you just mean a bunch of text	20:01
fenn	which is already out there anyway	20:01
fenn	see daviddarling.info for example	20:01
kanzure_	Btw, that same somebody that emailed me earlier today re: infrared LEDs for brain stimulation is also offering somebody who wants to help us build an rTMS setup.	20:02
kanzure_	Supposedly he knews the electronics for it.	20:02
fenn	me is skeptical	20:03
kanzure_	The yahoo! group actually looks rather interesting.	20:03
fenn	"oh sure its just discharging a capacitor" is what most people think	20:03
kanzure_	bavariancyclistneurohackingdivision	20:03
fenn	but there's a lot of high frequency high power signal stuff you have to worry about	20:03
fenn	what's with the name anyway?	20:04
fenn	group not found	20:04
fenn	google useless	20:04
fenn	oop spoke too soon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bavariancyclistneurohackers/	20:05
fenn	kanzure_: what sort of box doesnt have a browser?	20:05
kanzure_	They had a lot of .doc files in their file dir on the yahoo group thingy,	20:14
kanzure_	oh uh	20:14
kanzure_	I'm still playing retarded and am not running under screen	20:14
kanzure_	and I don't want to have to go hunting through me logs	20:14
kanzure_	Any idea on copying a line in vim? I'm trying to use wvHtml blah.doc blah.html, but I have this big list of doc files	20:15
kanzure_	I was hoping wvHtml *.doc would work, but it needs to have the second parameter, the name of the output file	20:15
kanzure_	oh, nevermind :)	20:18
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/html/ <- stuff from that yahoo group	20:24
kanzure_	Huh.	20:24
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/neuro/html/ <- Proper.	20:24
kanzure_	Hm, the electrode document is a good one.	20:28
kanzure_	I mean the DIY_CES one.	20:28
kanzure_	Yay, Ed's mentioned in these documents. Not sure how worth it these docs were though.. kinda simple stuff here and there.	20:31
kanzure_	Eric Hunting just posted about "closed loop living". Geeze, sounds almost familiar.	21:09
gene_	Kanzure running into trouble on the cartridge advancing mechanism got any ideas?	23:47
kanzure_	What trouble in paritcular?	23:47
kanzure_	Why cartridges? It would be easy to have a funnel to push pigs down into the trough.	23:48
kanzure_	(with a pushing mechanism)	23:48
gene_	no	23:48
gene_	it wouldn't	23:48
gene_	the cartridge has boxes that contain each pig	23:49
kanzure_	If you insist.	23:49
gene_	a piston pushes the pig out of the cartridge and into the catapult lever arm	23:49
gene_	please describe your mechanism	23:49
gene_	a funnel is apt to jamming	23:50
gene_	but might work	23:50
kanzure_	Yes, it would be prone to jamming, it's a simplification.	23:51
gene_	maybe	23:51
gene_	it also might take up less space than a cartridge	23:51
gene_	you know what would be really cool?	23:52
gene_	if we made it TOTALLY automated	23:53
gene_	where it not only launches pigs	23:53
gene_	but makes them	23:53
gene_	from raw materials	23:53
gene_	but that's complicated...	23:53
kanzure_	Cellular bootstrapping is not something yet accomplished.	23:53
kanzure_	While cells can repair their membranes, we don't have a Urey-like experiment that can boostrap membranes and cells.	23:54
kanzure_	:-/	23:54
gene_	I'm thinking something more along the lines of an injection molding machine	23:54
gene_	input plastic--->???---->output hot high velocity plastic pigs	23:55
kanzure_	Attach the ME dept's selective laser sintering machine perhaps?	23:55
gene_	heh	23:56
gene_	damn those things have a high res	23:56
gene_	I was talking to someone who works with them, they were contemplating printing somemthing to fit in their locket	23:57
gene_	so	23:57
kanzure_	How about we go fetch a picture of Billy Wood and model his likeness and print out a pig with his face to launch in a demo of the pig launcher product?	23:58
gene_	for the cartridge advancing mechanism I am thinking something like those click-click pen	23:58
gene_	no	23:58
gene_	I did get 3d scanned you know	23:58
gene_	but I don't want to print myself out	23:58
kanzure_	OpenCP + a photograph or a quick video will work to get Billy's face.	23:59

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