| --- Day changed Fri Nov 14 2008 | ||
| bkero | Brains | 00:37 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | what graduate program would ADL be associated with? | 00:47 |
| fenn | i'm guessing either ECE - Manufacturing systems engineering; operations research & industrial eng; or mechanical engineering | 00:49 |
| kanzure_ | Not industrial, as it turns out. | 00:52 |
| kanzure_ | Industrial and operations is upstairs. | 00:52 |
| kanzure_ | Manufacturing systems, hrm. | 00:53 |
| kanzure_ | well, ADL is within the MAD lab, "Manufacturing and Design" | 00:53 |
| kanzure_ | uhm. http://www.me.utexas.edu/ should have something. | 00:53 |
| fenn | Manufacturing Systems Engineering | 00:54 |
| fenn | This area emphasizes the application of computers, information sciences, and information systems to the development of equipment and software systems for manufacturing. | 00:54 |
| fenn | mad lab website looks like it hasnt been touched in 5 years | 00:55 |
| kanzure_ | it's been a decade prolly. | 00:55 |
| kanzure_ | um, mechanical is a safe bet. | 00:55 |
| kanzure_ | I haven't figured out what the MSE stuff is (in terms of people/labs) yet | 00:56 |
| kanzure_ | maybe it's the same people. don't know. | 00:56 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.me.utexas.edu/~bryant/mfg/ | 00:56 |
| kanzure_ | ah, it no longer exists anyway. | 00:57 |
| fenn | too bad | 00:57 |
| fenn | i wonder if they are going to make me take calculus again | 00:58 |
| kanzure_ | Did you fail it?> | 00:58 |
| fenn | no, but i've forgotten all of it | 00:59 |
| fenn | from sheer disuse | 00:59 |
| kanzure_ | Doesn't sheer require calculus? | 00:59 |
| kanzure_ | or am I thinking of shear? | 00:59 |
| fenn | i'm sure lots of engineering crap requires calculus, but it's totally irrelevant for what i want to do | 00:59 |
| fenn | since i'm not doing engineering per se, more like meta-engineering | 01:00 |
| fenn | and besides, that's what computers are for | 01:00 |
| kanzure_ | the multivariable calc grad/TA-dude basically just uses mathematica most of the time, except when lecturing/teaching/helping evidently. | 01:01 |
| fenn | of course, why would you do it by hand | 01:01 |
| fenn | i dont do long division by hand either | 01:01 |
| kanzure_ | because you're in a class :( | 01:01 |
| kanzure_ | actually I think they have graduate curriculums on the site. | 01:03 |
| fenn | i dont see that anywhere | 01:04 |
| fenn | looks like the other MS's are just plain ME | 01:05 |
| kanzure_ | yes, but there's "subspecializations" thingies. | 01:06 |
| fenn | i dont even want to be a grad student, this is stupid | 01:06 |
| kanzure_ | heh | 01:06 |
| fenn | i just want someone to pay me to work on skdb | 01:06 |
| fenn | how hard is that | 01:06 |
| kanzure_ | if there's a way to be on the payroll without being enrolled as a student, I'd be the first one to sign up | 01:07 |
| kanzure_ | it's worth investigating. | 01:11 |
| kanzure_ | every lab seems to have their nonstudent person. in Ellington's lab it was Zack, in ACTlab it's just people hanging out, etc. | 01:12 |
| fenn | it would really simplify things and allow me to begin immediately | 01:12 |
| fenn | instead of waiting until.. august? | 01:12 |
| kanzure_ | for what? | 01:12 |
| fenn | i might be dead by august ffs! | 01:12 |
| fenn | for the academic year to start | 01:12 |
| fenn | looks like there is no engineering GRE, yay! | 01:14 |
| kanzure_ | some of the grad students talk about 'quals'. | 01:14 |
| kanzure_ | that might be for phd stuff though | 01:15 |
| fenn | i think that's like finals | 01:15 |
| fenn | ah, quals is required before you start your dissertation (whatever that is) | 01:16 |
| fenn | jesus christ why is everyone talking about the venus project | 01:44 |
| kanzure_ | it's not even that good. | 01:45 |
| kanzure_ | So it was funny today when I showed campbell approppedia | 01:45 |
| kanzure_ | appropedia | 01:45 |
| kanzure_ | and then when we went into his office for a few seconds to check his machine for something, | 01:45 |
| kanzure_ | in the corner it popped up, somebody emailed him "you have to check out appropedia" | 01:45 |
| kanzure_ | he hadn't heard of it before I told him about it | 01:45 |
| fenn | whee | 01:45 |
| fenn | who was it? | 01:45 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know. Didn't catch it. | 01:45 |
| fenn | your tachikoma agent? | 01:46 |
| kanzure_ | No, she was at home watching porn. :( | 01:46 |
| fenn | lazy robots | 01:46 |
| * fenn glares around the room with x-ray-laser-eyes | 01:47 | |
| kanzure_ | ? | 01:47 |
| kanzure_ | GITS ref? | 01:47 |
| fenn | bot-on-bot violence | 01:47 |
| fenn | nevermind | 01:48 |
| fenn | i dont think i can keep up with paul's emails | 01:48 |
| kanzure_ | He may be more of a Markov bot than me. | 01:49 |
| fenn | they're essay-length but unlike eric hunting they're mostly recycled material | 01:49 |
| kanzure_ | He has specific sections in his emails that repeat. | 01:49 |
| kanzure_ | Don't know how he keeps track of the recyclable elements. | 01:50 |
| kanzure_ | heheh. | 01:50 |
| kanzure_ | It would be fun to write a Paul email imitator app. | 01:50 |
| kanzure_ | it would be easy to write a few regexps to extract those recyclables, and then just generate emails based off of input keywords of a message | 01:50 |
| kanzure_ | I'm certain this would work. | 01:50 |
| fenn | or you could run a paragraph-length markov bot on his website or a collection of previous posts | 01:50 |
| kanzure_ | is that equivalent? | 01:51 |
| fenn | less work, more diversity | 01:51 |
| fenn | unless you mean to use the regexp to keep quotes intact | 01:51 |
| fenn | (he uses lots of quotes) | 01:51 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, I was thinking I'd just look for links | 01:52 |
| kanzure_ | since he usually has quotes nearby | 01:52 |
| fenn | ok that's enough gossip.. perhaps i'll go spend the last of my money on ice cream | 01:52 |
| kanzure_ | last? | 01:52 |
| fenn | borrowed money doesnt count in my book | 01:53 |
| fenn | and i'm having some bank issues so i cant get at it anyway | 01:53 |
| kanzure_ | bank vanish? | 01:53 |
| fenn | they are just being unreasonably slow | 01:53 |
| fenn | i was trying to close my account, but the transfer is taking forever. they'll probably be closed for the weekend by the time it finishes | 01:54 |
| gene | hey Kanzure want to get into the business of selling GMOs? | 03:27 |
| kanzure_ | Why do you ask? | 03:27 |
| gene | how else would we get money to do research | 03:28 |
| gene | on biohacking | 03:28 |
| kanzure_ | Don't worry about the money. | 03:28 |
| kanzure_ | I have that covered. | 03:28 |
| gene | while at the same time making a useful gene more accessible to the general public | 03:29 |
| gene | oh yeah | 03:29 |
| kanzure_ | I was going to write some inventory software to manage inventories of plasmids in biobrick labs for accessibility. It would allow people to order plasmids. | 03:29 |
| gene | you aren't for profit | 03:30 |
| gene | from grocery stores? | 03:30 |
| kanzure_ | No, from people who have plasmids. | 03:30 |
| gene | btw, anyway to hide a gene in an organism's genome where it sits unused and easily cleaved with RE's | 03:31 |
| kanzure_ | What do you mean by hide? | 03:31 |
| gene | Easter egg | 03:31 |
| gene | bio easter egg | 03:31 |
| gene | Hmmmm.... | 03:31 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 03:31 |
| kanzure_ | Do you mean not expressed? | 03:31 |
| gene | yup | 03:32 |
| kanzure_ | That's genetic regulatory networks stuff. | 03:32 |
| kanzure_ | Not a matter of where to place it. | 03:32 |
| kanzure_ | So you put something like a lac operon in front of it. | 03:32 |
| kanzure_ | And a few primers and so on. | 03:32 |
| gene | uh huh | 03:32 |
| gene | I'm saying sell a GMO with unexpressed plasmids in it | 03:33 |
| gene | that the FDA won't find | 03:33 |
| gene | so what does it take to modify the avian genome | 03:34 |
| gene | pretty much the same as modding mammalian genome right? | 03:35 |
| kanzure_ | It's just DNA.. | 03:35 |
| drazak | kanzure_: how do you do rapid gel electroporesis? eg. a couple hours from sample+pcr+gel? | 03:35 |
| kanzure_ | Uh? It was always a couple hours. | 03:36 |
| kanzure_ | Are you using some ridiculously lengthy method? | 03:36 |
| fenn | lotsa volts, a fan to cool off the gel | 03:36 |
| gene | what're you trying to do drazak? | 03:36 |
| kanzure_ | crank up teh volts :) | 03:36 |
| fenn | slower gels have better resolution | 03:36 |
| gene | don't you mean current? | 03:36 |
| fenn | same thing | 03:36 |
| fenn | gel is a fixed resistance | 03:36 |
| fenn | you're going after current per unit cross sectional area | 03:37 |
| drazak | kanzure_: ah ok, I had been given poor info than, sorry | 03:38 |
| kanzure_ | The FDA doesn't sequence genomes. | 03:38 |
| gene | exactly | 03:38 |
| kanzure_ | drazak: Maybe. What source? | 03:38 |
| kanzure_ | gene: So you wouldn't have to hide it. | 03:38 |
| drazak | kanzure_: a teacher :P | 03:38 |
| kanzure_ | drazak: Ah, the worst. | 03:38 |
| kanzure_ | gene: Besides, you could just, you know, avoid the FDA. | 03:38 |
| fenn | you could just keep it in a freezer | 03:39 |
| gene | not if you want to sell it here | 03:39 |
| kanzure_ | Sell it? | 03:39 |
| gene | in the US | 03:39 |
| gene | yeah | 03:39 |
| gene | sell it | 03:39 |
| kanzure_ | If you start selling it, I start replicating it for free | 03:39 |
| gene | yeah | 03:39 |
| gene | I know | 03:39 |
| gene | but investors don't know that | 03:39 |
| fenn | what are you selling exactly? | 03:39 |
| gene | something that could be rendered irreproducible | 03:40 |
| gene | probably | 03:40 |
| fenn | fat chance | 03:40 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 03:40 |
| fenn | RIAA and MPAA failed, with hundreds of millions of $ invested | 03:40 |
| gene | to avoid environmental contamination | 03:40 |
| gene | people will still buy it | 03:40 |
| gene | even if it's free | 03:41 |
| gene | really | 03:41 |
| fenn | so why not sell insurance | 03:41 |
| gene | they sell plants and animals | 03:41 |
| fenn | or newspapers | 03:41 |
| fenn | or linux distro's :) | 03:41 |
| gene | can you distribute useful plasmids via a newspaper? | 03:42 |
| kanzure_ | What do you consider useful to be? | 03:42 |
| fenn | erm uh you're being deliberately obtuse | 03:42 |
| fenn | i'm saying your business plan sucks | 03:42 |
| kanzure_ | yay | 03:42 |
| gene | 1. easy to seperate out | 03:42 |
| gene | 2. useful for gene modification operations( restriction enzymes,heat tolerant polymerases and such) | 03:43 |
| fenn | you can find these plasmids in any bio lab, the problem is not availability but rather artificial restrictions like patents | 03:44 |
| kanzure_ | and MTAs. | 03:44 |
| gene | that's why I want to hide them in the genome of thing I am selling | 03:44 |
| fenn | mail transfer agent? :) | 03:44 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: material transfer agreements. see my recent (~past 2 weeks) rants on inventory for plasmid mailing stuff, software thingies. | 03:44 |
| fenn | rants where? | 03:45 |
| gene | Mechanical Tyrant Agency? | 03:45 |
| fenn | is this like "i promise not to give my lab supplies to terrorists" | 03:45 |
| kanzure_ | Material Transfer Agreements are required by universities before you can send biological agents. | 03:45 |
| kanzure_ | biological agents by mail. | 03:45 |
| fenn | oo e. coli and taq polymerase.. scary | 03:45 |
| kanzure_ | right, it's bullshit stuff. | 03:46 |
| fenn | someone could put e. coli in a bomb and contaminate the water supply! | 03:46 |
| gene | HE HAS POTASSIUM PERCHLORATE HE MUST BE A TERRORIST | 03:46 |
| fenn | or a welder | 03:46 |
| fenn | weldor? | 03:46 |
| fenn | or likes to make his socks really bright white | 03:47 |
| gene | a welder is on gnomegland pecurity's watch list | 03:47 |
| fenn | gnomegland? | 03:48 |
| gene | shh.... | 03:48 |
| gene | you know what I mean | 03:48 |
| gene | don't type it | 03:48 |
| kanzure_ | You're just acting paranoid because you think it's cool to be paranoid though. | 03:48 |
| gene | indeed | 03:49 |
| kanzure_ | .. | 03:49 |
| fenn | most paranoid people are that way | 03:49 |
| fenn | at least the ones that talk about it | 03:49 |
| gene | I USE A 1 GIG ENCRYPTION KEY | 03:49 |
| * fenn mutters something about "security culture" | 03:49 | |
| gene | TRY TO CRACK THAT FEDS! | 03:49 |
| gene | anyway I've considered making potassium perchlorate before | 03:50 |
| fenn | back when i was a terrorist... we had training workshops on how to avoid the fbi, but they were very straightforward and more about knowing the extent of the law than undertaking unreasonable technical solutions | 03:50 |
| gene | I wish I could know my rank on the terror watchlist | 03:51 |
| fenn | you could ask | 03:51 |
| fenn | i think it would be a fun game to play | 03:51 |
| fenn | kinda like "chicken" | 03:51 |
| gene | actually it would be more like an RPG | 03:52 |
| fenn | no, a mixed reality media | 03:52 |
| fenn | crap. whatever that ilovebees thing was called | 03:53 |
| gene | read about how to making bombs increase probability of being terrorist by 10 point | 03:53 |
| gene | hmm... | 03:53 |
| gene | wonder what they look for anyway | 03:53 |
| gene | so how about blowing up the whitehouse | 03:54 |
| gene | you know the inflatable one | 03:54 |
| gene | it's been in it's box ever since I bought it | 03:54 |
| fenn | no no, i live in the whitehouse, you can blow up the shack out back though | 03:55 |
| gene | this topic isn't useful | 03:58 |
| fenn | fine, be that way | 03:59 |
| kanzure_ | Why does he leave? | 03:59 |
| fenn | ChatZilla | 04:00 |
| kanzure_ | So what? | 04:00 |
| kanzure_ | Oh right, firefox can't be on for more than 20 minutes ;-) | 04:00 |
| fenn | do you think campbell would be interested in this? http://fennetic.net/cadwiki/index.php?FrontPage#vb206cb3 | 04:01 |
| * kanzure_ types in the url .. | 04:02 | |
| kanzure_ | is the anchor important? | 04:02 |
| fenn | it's notes to myself on features i'd want in a cad-ish/skdb-ish application (before i came up with the idea of a technology distribution) | 04:02 |
| fenn | the anchor is "goal oriented flow" | 04:02 |
| fenn | just go to fennetic.net/cadwiki | 04:03 |
| fenn | feel free to read the rest though | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | user interface and data struct stuff to bottom. | 04:05 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, okay, linking me to that anchor makes more sense. | 04:05 |
| kanzure_ | I'm trying to figure out how to best convey the style that he tends to like. Talking search algorithms is good. | 04:10 |
| kanzure_ | Goals / user preference modeling is supposedly what I'm presently doing, which I guess I can make up some strange connections to goalism | 04:10 |
| fenn | it's not really about goals, that was just sort of a buzzword/placeholder | 04:11 |
| kanzure_ | it's about 'requirements' no? | 04:11 |
| fenn | right | 04:12 |
| fenn | sufficiently vague requirements | 04:12 |
| fenn | not specified to the last detail like in a drafting program | 04:12 |
| fenn | anyway the point is to build all this optimization stuff into the cad program and run the optimizations in the background/on the server automatically, so you dont waste time switching around between tools | 04:14 |
| kanzure_ | right, I'm coding something up like that at the moment. | 04:15 |
| fenn | lisp interpreter has a neat feature where you start typing in a statement and it is already evaluating it, so when you press return the answer comes back instantly | 04:15 |
| fenn | oh well, this is "in the ballpark" at least | 04:16 |
| kanzure_ | sort of. I'm trying to figure you out a home run. | 04:16 |
| kanzure_ | oh, talking about hierarchical bayesian networks/probability would score some points btw. | 04:16 |
| kanzure_ | if you happen to actually know that area :/ | 04:17 |
| fenn | well, not really | 04:17 |
| fenn | i dont see what bayesian networks have to do with process planning? | 04:18 |
| kanzure_ | no biggie, it was just a one-off comment he made to me recently. | 04:18 |
| kanzure_ | me either. | 04:18 |
| fenn | its not like you can just make up data | 04:18 |
| kanzure_ | It's hard for me to figure out the "what's next" for ADL because once you have the giant cad system, and the toolchain from the tree search to the 3D modeling software and so on, that's about it for that sort of toolchain, plus or minus improvements/bugfixes.. | 04:20 |
| fenn | "Generalizations of Bayesian networks that can represent and solve decision problems under uncertainty are called influence diagrams." this sounds vaguely related | 04:20 |
| kanzure_ | huh. | 04:20 |
| fenn | but i think he just has a hard-on for graphs :) | 04:21 |
| kanzure_ | also significant invested time in his codebase. | 04:21 |
| fenn | hm yeah and i dont really get what it's supposed to do | 04:22 |
| kanzure_ | have you played around with it? | 04:22 |
| kanzure_ | graphsynth, I mean. | 04:22 |
| fenn | no | 04:22 |
| fenn | only the design repo stuff | 04:22 |
| kanzure_ | it compiles on linux, but it has some errors, though mostly works. | 04:22 |
| kanzure_ | so what the software does is take the substitution rules, given lefthand sides and righthand sides, and then goes through your given graph and keeps track of the number of different ways that the substitution could be applied, and then executes that replacement | 04:23 |
| fenn | with mono? (linux) | 04:23 |
| kanzure_ | actually the website is rather informative for each of the sections, it just doesn't help to explain the GUI | 04:23 |
| kanzure_ | yeah | 04:23 |
| kanzure_ | monodevelop. | 04:24 |
| kanzure_ | One student has been writing a DLL extension to graphsynth for gear optimization. He has a set of substitution rules that take a user's "requirements" (in the form of a 'function structure' graph) and by various substitutions (+additions sometimes) there's this overall gear system, and then sprinkle in the optimization, and in the end it's a .gxml file that supposedly I'm reading in to glxgears. | 04:25 |
| kanzure_ | there's like four guys in the lab, for what it's worth. | 04:26 |
| gene | http://burrtools.sourceforge.net/ | 04:28 |
| gene | are you pondering what I am pondering? | 04:28 |
| * fenn grumbles about the lack of a readme | 04:28 | |
| kanzure_ | gene: That's like my supermetal app. | 04:28 |
| gene | what's supermetal? | 04:29 |
| gene | is harder than dragonforce? | 04:29 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-02_supermetal_2.png | 04:29 |
| gene | so what does it do? | 04:30 |
| fenn | oh this was on johnny quest (cyberspace version) | 04:30 |
| gene | huh? | 04:31 |
| kanzure_ | Given a set of primitives, allows you to randomly generate shapes and then do cool things with them. Export to 3D file format, for instance. | 04:31 |
| gene | like? | 04:31 |
| kanzure_ | See the screenshot. | 04:31 |
| fenn | they dug up a bunch of smashed pieces of a statue, scanned them in, and then let the computer assemble the 3d models | 04:31 |
| gene | wait a minute really? | 04:32 |
| gene | just like in snow crash? | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | It's a common scene in investigative TV shows. | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | "Broken bottle! But it's okay, we can painstakingly reconstruct it and extract fingerprints!" | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | or in the latest Batman, given sharpnel => reconstruct the original bullet. | 04:33 |
| gene | how does supermetal do that? | 04:33 |
| fenn | these crime scene scenarios are rather close to what we need to do with magical-engineering-app | 04:33 |
| gene | you are pondering what I am pondering then | 04:33 |
| kanzure_ | Supermetal is going in the opposite direction, but you just reverse things around and do collision detection and some quick math for checking whether or not basic constraints are satisfied. | 04:33 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: ? | 04:34 |
| fenn | kanzure_: interfaces | 04:34 |
| fenn | mcmaster catalog = smashed pieces | 04:34 |
| fenn | edges of glass = product specifications | 04:34 |
| gene | so supermetal breaks a part into pieces? | 04:34 |
| fenn | combine them into something useful | 04:34 |
| kanzure_ | gene: No, supermetal assembles from primitives. | 04:34 |
| gene | assembles what? | 04:34 |
| fenn | stuff | 04:35 |
| gene | random stuff? | 04:35 |
| kanzure_ | All stuff. | 04:35 |
| fenn | icosahedrons from the looks of it | 04:35 |
| gene | like? | 04:35 |
| kanzure_ | Say there's N possible primitives. | 04:35 |
| kanzure_ | and P set of points per primitive. | 04:35 |
| kanzure_ | Then you can loop through each one and make the graph. | 04:35 |
| kanzure_ | Now, to rate them, and score the constructions, you do some mathy thingies. Like whether or not you like there to be GIANT GAPING HOLES in the structures. | 04:36 |
| gene | did you make it yourself? | 04:36 |
| fenn | giant gaping holes can be good or bad or not matter | 04:36 |
| kanzure_ | Supermetal? yeah | 04:36 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: that's user-dependento f course. | 04:36 |
| gene | and the gui | 04:36 |
| gene | for it | 04:36 |
| kanzure_ | There is no GUI except the 3D visualization. | 04:36 |
| gene | which is in? | 04:37 |
| kanzure_ | Huh? | 04:37 |
| gene | what? | 04:37 |
| gene | is it in | 04:37 |
| fenn | but kanzure_ how do you generalize the concept of "giant gaping holes", and how many of these descriptors are there? | 04:37 |
| kanzure_ | a computer | 04:37 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: plugins. | 04:37 |
| kanzure_ | plugins for new varchecks etc. | 04:38 |
| fenn | varcheck = what? | 04:38 |
| gene | huh? | 04:38 |
| kanzure_ | distance between points/edges for instance? | 04:38 |
| gene | I have know idea what u r talking about | 04:38 |
| fenn | so varcheck is just a function | 04:39 |
| kanzure_ | What did you think I was talking about? | 04:39 |
| fenn | gene: please limit the drooling idiot abbreviations | 04:39 |
| gene | ok | 04:39 |
| fenn | thanks | 04:39 |
| fenn | kanzure_: would you say this is basically a genetic algorithm? | 04:40 |
| fenn | varcheck ~= fitness function | 04:40 |
| gene | you made a GA kanzure? | 04:41 |
| fenn | unless you mean to calculate every possibility | 04:41 |
| kanzure_ | varcheck =~ scoring function. | 04:41 |
| gene | how does it score it? | 04:41 |
| kanzure_ | The scoring function is not yet implemented because I don't care. | 04:41 |
| kanzure_ | It doesn't because I haven't implemented any of the checks. | 04:41 |
| gene | how do your gene's work | 04:41 |
| fenn | uh oh, did i say a naughty word? | 04:41 |
| kanzure_ | I guess if you wanted to you could check the distance between tips of objects on it. | 04:41 |
| gene | so it's not really a GA? | 04:42 |
| kanzure_ | I didn't say it was a GA. | 04:42 |
| kanzure_ | It could be a GA though if you wanted. | 04:42 |
| kanzure_ | The genes would be the sequence of primitives or whatever. | 04:42 |
| gene | I don't get what it does | 04:42 |
| * fenn feels like this is going nowhere | 04:42 | |
| kanzure_ | There's a set of N primitives; you assemble it by saying primitives #1, 34141, 341, 5, 1, 39, 394 | 04:43 |
| kanzure_ | So the genes for that one would be that list of primitives | 04:43 |
| kanzure_ | It's slightly more involved than that though because I implemented points of tangency | 04:43 |
| gene | what's input what's output? | 04:43 |
| kanzure_ | input: number of 'nodes' of the graph or whatever. | 04:44 |
| kanzure_ | output: 3D object. | 04:44 |
| gene | ok | 04:45 |
| gene | can it convert graphs to real objects | 04:48 |
| gene | like from the ADL? | 04:48 |
| kanzure_ | Yep. I'd have to write a gxml -> a data format thingy for the app but that's ok. That's just file format conversion stuffs. | 04:49 |
| fenn | the design repo doesnt contain any 3d data | 04:49 |
| fenn | so you'd have a bunch of spheres stuck together to represent a camera, i guess | 04:49 |
| kanzure_ | hold on a sec. | 04:50 |
| fenn | unless i'm missing something? | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | So, the gxml data is the graph stuff. Like those 'CFGs' (component function graphs) that I generated with graphviz | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | (grxml is the substitution rule stuff) | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | The design repo, and all of those .repo files, do not contain gxml. :( | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | They have files within them though, that's why I was so annoyed last month. | 04:50 |
| fenn | gxml describes what? | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | a graph. | 04:51 |
| fenn | a graph that represents what | 04:51 |
| kanzure_ | It either describes a 'function structure' (black box) or 'CFG' | 04:51 |
| kanzure_ | CFG would be like "axe -> hammer" | 04:51 |
| gene | so how would you make that meat slice gun real? | 04:51 |
| kanzure_ | Hold on. | 04:51 |
| kanzure_ | Some of the .repo files do not have those images, some do, etc. | 04:51 |
| fenn | i'm not interested in images | 04:52 |
| kanzure_ | Some have 'CDD' (ConceptDraw files). Some have 'functionCAD' files. But CDD is proprietary and not easily converted to anything usable, as we know. | 04:52 |
| kanzure_ | Also, the database sucks; there's no way to extract the 'function structure' information about the connectivity. | 04:52 |
| kanzure_ | Specifically, a subfunction of an 'artifact' (which is kinda like in the CFG layer) | 04:52 |
| kanzure_ | points to another artifact; not to a 'port' on that artifact (like what subfunction the other artifact has that is relevant) | 04:52 |
| fenn | unfortunate, that | 04:53 |
| kanzure_ | So you see stuff like "laserpointer -> table" but not that it's the solid interface that matters, or not that it's the laser-pointing part. | 04:53 |
| gene | can't you figure out things like component is wedge, gear, bearing, or plane or such? | 04:53 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, so it's basically somewhat unusable data | 04:53 |
| gene | uh wow | 04:53 |
| kanzure_ | the design repo doesn't contain 3D information, that's correct | 04:53 |
| gene | matlab represents a missile guidance system as a graph | 04:54 |
| gene | and a car as a graph | 04:54 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, electronics is very commonly a graph | 04:54 |
| kanzure_ | yep. | 04:54 |
| fenn | control system, not the actual "how to build it" info | 04:54 |
| kanzure_ | "Function structures" are popular. | 04:54 |
| kanzure_ | right, the 'how to build it' info is something lacking in this stuff. | 04:54 |
| fenn | diagrams (graphs) for control systems is the only way to do it | 04:55 |
| kanzure_ | conversion to gcode and such is one way, but I want the origami assembly folding stuff too.. anyway. | 04:55 |
| kanzure_ | as for the meat slice gun thingy, | 04:55 |
| gene | you know knives are simple machines | 04:55 |
| kanzure_ | It's very easy to make it real *if* the individual parts have 3D representations in the repo | 04:55 |
| gene | the first machines made by man were knives | 04:55 |
| fenn | so are rocks | 04:55 |
| fenn | and sticks | 04:56 |
| kanzure_ | and dung. | 04:56 |
| fenn | and hooting noises | 04:56 |
| kanzure_ | Is it a monkey? | 04:56 |
| * fenn bangs on chest (visual state indicator) | 04:56 | |
| gene | why not use all that ADL stuff to make stone age 3d structures | 04:57 |
| fenn | indeed | 04:57 |
| gene | rome wasn't built in a day | 04:57 |
| fenn | this is why i'm interested in "love" | 04:57 |
| fenn | quelsolaar.com | 04:57 |
| gene | I don't know what you mean | 04:57 |
| gene | meat | 04:57 |
| gene | ok | 04:58 |
| fenn | graph grammars for building primited 3d structures | 04:58 |
| fenn | primitive* | 04:58 |
| fenn | (oh did i mention they're virtual?) | 04:58 |
| fenn | yuck IDE's :) | 04:59 |
| kanzure_ | It's all IDEs. :( | 05:00 |
| kanzure_ | oh | 05:00 |
| kanzure_ | GUIs. | 05:00 |
| kanzure_ | Brainfart. | 05:00 |
| fenn | so i have monodevelop and the source, what do i do? | 05:01 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: you could pitch campbell my automated reverse engineering of the patent db stuff. | 05:01 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: Alt+P + enter should build it. | 05:01 |
| fenn | i dont think that's feasible or valuable | 05:01 |
| fenn | i think i need to open a file first | 05:01 |
| kanzure_ | oh, open up the sln file | 05:02 |
| kanzure_ | GraphSynth.sln somewhere. | 05:02 |
| fenn | yeah i did that and nothing happened | 05:02 |
| kanzure_ | try the .suo ? | 05:02 |
| fenn | probably not liking being run over ssh/X | 05:02 |
| kanzure_ | where.. are you? | 05:03 |
| fenn | oh i see my screen is too small | 05:03 |
| gene | A = [1 2; 3 4]; | 05:04 |
| fenn | Assembly '/home/fenn/sandbox/GraphSynth.v.1.9.src/GraphSynthFiles/Representation/bin/Debug/Representation.dll' doesn't have an entry point. | 05:04 |
| gene | crap | 05:04 |
| gene | this isn't matlab | 05:04 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: try building the whole project | 05:04 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: and then run the Application_UI_thingy | 05:05 |
| gene | you still have that john doe account kanzure? | 05:07 |
| kanzure_ | Nope. | 05:07 |
| gene | damn | 05:07 |
| gene | guess I'll have to download ubuntu my self then | 05:07 |
| gene | wiat | 05:07 |
| gene | so that's why the server went down? | 05:07 |
| kanzure_ | Yes. | 05:07 |
| gene | that sucks | 05:08 |
| gene | is it still down? | 05:08 |
| gene | did you get throttled? | 05:08 |
| kanzure_ | Go check? | 05:08 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/ | 05:08 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know about the throttling. That's a new bug to me. | 05:08 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: Load up something from the input/ dir, then apply one of the things in the rules/ dir. Then you should get some stuff. | 05:09 |
| gene | Ponder this: there will come a day when there will be no betas | 05:10 |
| fenn | i have nfc what i am doing | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | .. | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | is it doing anything? | 05:10 |
| fenn | it opened an xml file in firefox :( | 05:11 |
| kanzure_ | how did that happen? | 05:11 |
| fenn | i did file -> open swirlsomething.gxml | 05:11 |
| kanzure_ | and then *bam* firefox? | 05:11 |
| fenn | ya | 05:11 |
| fenn | doesnt help that half the stuff is off the screen | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | you can resize the window. | 05:12 |
| fenn | no, there's a minimum pane size | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | there's a menu item that lets you resort the nodes in the graph, if you see any graph. | 05:12 |
| fenn | i got rid of all the toolbars and now i can see one line of shell output | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know why it opens firefox. Do you have some weird file clicker setup? | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | shell output? | 05:13 |
| fenn | gah | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | Did you get graphsynth running? | 05:13 |
| fenn | no | 05:14 |
| fenn | i am still at step 1: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/monocrap.png | 05:15 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, I'm surprised opening up the sln file didn't work | 05:16 |
| kanzure_ | when you installed monodevelop do you think it installed the compilers? | 05:17 |
| kanzure_ | sln is weird. on the left in that list of directories I don't see the one that starts with the word 'Application' | 05:17 |
| fenn | monodevelop installed like 50 packages (100MB or so) | 05:17 |
| fenn | it better fucking have installed some compilers | 05:17 |
| kanzure_ | okay. good bet that it was there. | 05:17 |
| fenn | "solution" means "binary" more or less? | 05:19 |
| kanzure_ | What? | 05:19 |
| fenn | there's a lot of terminology i've never seen before | 05:19 |
| fenn | i guess bytecode would be more appropriate | 05:21 |
| kanzure_ | bleh? I don't remember seeing that option. | 05:21 |
| kanzure_ | Try restarting monodevelop. The sln file is the project file and should be openable. | 05:26 |
| fenn | when i open the sln it just acts like i opened the .suo | 05:28 |
| kanzure_ | is there other GraphSynth.<something> files? | 05:28 |
| fenn | no | 05:28 |
| kanzure_ | what's the full dir path that you find the sln in? | 05:29 |
| fenn | /home/fenn/sandbox/GraphSynth.v.1.9.src/GraphSynthFiles/GraphSynth.sln | 05:29 |
| kanzure_ | blah. | 05:29 |
| kanzure_ | Same for me. | 05:29 |
| * fenn googles on "doesn't have an entry point." | 05:30 | |
| kanzure_ | it means that you're trying to run the wrong thing. | 05:30 |
| kanzure_ | the "Application_Search_UI" thing is what you want to run. | 05:30 |
| kanzure_ | but it's for some reason not included in your left-hand list thingy in that screenshot.. | 05:31 |
| fenn | because the files tab is selected | 05:31 |
| fenn | it's there in the solutions tab | 05:31 |
| kanzure_ | oh good. try selecting it and right click and go to run or something like that. | 05:31 |
| kanzure_ | also, if you go into GraphSynthFiles/the one that isn't rules or input or output/Release/bin/GraphSynth.exe | 05:32 |
| kanzure_ | or whatever it is. just go see if there's a full exe. | 05:32 |
| fenn | aha it worked | 05:32 |
| kanzure_ | it? | 05:33 |
| fenn | right click on App_search_UI | 05:33 |
| kanzure_ | yay. | 05:33 |
| * fenn makes train derailment noises | 05:34 | |
| fenn | crashed | 05:35 |
| fenn | wow that was only like twenty seconds | 05:35 |
| kanzure_ | did it give an exception about XML and input or output? | 05:35 |
| fenn | Unhandled Exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object | 05:35 |
| kanzure_ | you might have to replace "\\" in the files with "/" via the 'search 'tab. It's one of those windows-things. | 05:35 |
| kanzure_ | oh. | 05:35 |
| fenn | it opened the file fine | 05:35 |
| kanzure_ | but then crashed? | 05:35 |
| fenn | all the nodes were clumped together so i tried to pick them apart | 05:35 |
| kanzure_ | yeah? | 05:36 |
| fenn | then it crashed | 05:36 |
| kanzure_ | I fixed this earlier today. | 05:36 |
| kanzure_ | um. | 05:36 |
| kanzure_ | basically the problem is that the node name is null. | 05:36 |
| kanzure_ | so there's a part of the system that reads in the nodes or something. | 05:37 |
| kanzure_ | it will be in the XmlIO files | 05:37 |
| kanzure_ | you want to do something like if(!(some var.Length==0) in front of a for loop that checks for arc names. | 05:37 |
| kanzure_ | yay for being terribly vague. | 05:37 |
| kanzure_ | oh, it's in loadXml in the designGraphXmlIO.cs file. | 05:38 |
| fenn | is there a way to kill just the app when it's misbehaving and not monodevelop? | 05:38 |
| kanzure_ | it should be executing it separately, so killall -9 graphsynth should work (check ps -A or top) | 05:39 |
| kanzure_ | but I've never had problems, I can always just close it via the 'x' button on the window. | 05:39 |
| fenn | i should have been able to figure that out | 05:40 |
| fenn | problem is "about graphsynth" has no 'x' button | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | oh | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | yes, well, | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | on KDE what I do about that is I send it to another desktop | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | :) | 05:41 |
| fenn | hmm then it drags me with it to that desktop | 05:41 |
| kanzure_ | can you go back? | 05:41 |
| fenn | i can send it to the bottom of the stack but then the pulldown menus dont work in the app | 05:42 |
| kanzure_ | can you send it to another desktop, get pulled, and the ngo back to the other desktop? :/ | 05:42 |
| fenn | er... yes sometimes | 05:43 |
| fenn | i didnt have this problem the first time (when it wanted to create a config file) | 05:43 |
| fenn | there's a text input box on "about graphsynth" that wants my attention | 05:43 |
| kanzure_ | text input? I haven't noticed that. | 05:44 |
| kanzure_ | you know what, this whole 'about' thing should be disableableble. | 05:44 |
| kanzure_ | I haven't bothered figuring out how yet. | 05:44 |
| fenn | foreach (arc a in arcs) | 05:45 |
| fenn | is that the right place to put if(!(some var.Length==0) | 05:45 |
| kanzure_ | right | 05:46 |
| kanzure_ | below it | 05:46 |
| kanzure_ | it should be looking for a.name | 05:46 |
| kanzure_ | is that true? | 05:46 |
| kanzure_ | a.To.name | 05:46 |
| kanzure_ | the reason why a.To.name and a.From.name fails is because the From and/or To object is not instantiated. | 05:46 |
| kanzure_ | so, a good check is whether or not a.To && a.From == null or not.. | 05:47 |
| * fenn clucks disapprovingly | 05:50 | |
| kanzure_ | ? | 05:50 |
| fenn | look before you leap coding | 05:52 |
| kanzure_ | I'm not looking at the code at the moment, but I seem to recall something about look-ahead in the graph | 05:52 |
| kanzure_ | is that what you mean? | 05:52 |
| fenn | no, i'm referring to the "if some var == null" scattered throughout every function | 05:53 |
| kanzure_ | every? | 05:53 |
| kanzure_ | is it already there? | 05:53 |
| fenn | i'm not sure.. still figuring out what this stuff does | 05:54 |
| fenn | what kind of IDE doesnt have code folding | 05:54 |
| kanzure_ | a bad one. | 05:54 |
| kanzure_ | kwrite does. | 05:54 |
| * kanzure_ quickly learned kwrite's f11 | 05:55 | |
| bkero | fenn: xcode :( | 05:56 |
| * fenn opens the damn file in kate | 05:56 | |
| fenn | ah much better | 05:56 |
| gene | I just thought of something that needs to be made | 06:18 |
| gene | a program that scans forums for conspiracy theories and debunks them when it finds them | 06:19 |
| bkero | I believe snopes has that covered | 06:19 |
| fenn | any decent conspiracy theory can't be debunked | 06:19 |
| gene | I know | 06:20 |
| gene | but automically looks up snopes | 06:20 |
| fenn | heh so i finally get the damn thing to compile and it still crashes | 06:20 |
| gene | cars compile yet they still crash | 06:20 |
| gene | any way | 06:21 |
| bkero | I think an autotroll would be pretty amusing | 06:21 |
| gene | I am trying to figure out how to make a program to troll a forum so I don't have to | 06:21 |
| gene | yes it would | 06:21 |
| gene | it would generate epic lulz | 06:22 |
| gene | now what would be really epic | 06:22 |
| gene | if you start generating a whole bunch of random garbage in a UFO forum | 06:22 |
| fenn | bkero: if an autotroll trolls in the forest and nobody is around to hear, is it a troll? | 06:22 |
| gene | and see if they believe it | 06:23 |
| gene | http://www.autotroll.com/index.html | 06:25 |
| gene | there already is an autotroll | 06:25 |
| gene | but it doesn't autotroll forums | 06:28 |
| gene | KANZURE I FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE A SPIRAL IN SOLIDWORKS | 07:45 |
| gene | it's so easy | 07:46 |
| gene | FACEPALM | 07:46 |
| willPow3r | dark chocolate m&ms are fucking gross | 08:30 |
| willPow3r | dont ever eat these disgusting nuggets of nastiness. | 08:31 |
| gene | I hear clone meat is tasty | 09:04 |
| gene | you should try it | 09:04 |
| kanzure_ | gene - Stop claiming you learn new things and then not explaining. | 10:57 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: why is paul still going on about his triples? | 11:03 |
| kanzure_ | "Remember, if immortality is outlawed then only outlaws will be immortal." | 11:10 |
| kanzure_ | haha, classroom emailing lists suck. "Last night, one of my friends attempted suicide, so if somebody could take notes for me today that would be great. Thanks. I'm going to hang out with the others that were there. See ya." | 12:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://www.nataliedee.com/090208/you-are-free-to-learn-how-to-do-stuff-at-any-time.jpg | 12:27 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: Did you ever send it to me? | 13:25 |
| kanzure_ | How did Bram Moolenaar get his name on the vim startup screen? | 14:13 |
| kanzure_ | I thought vim was some horrible monstrosity of a few hundred contributors. | 14:14 |
| UtopiahGHML | Intelligence in Wikipedia | 16:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | by googletechtalks | 16:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | I can't access it, anybody else can? it was supposed to be the last video posted :/ | 16:03 |
| fenn | kanzure_: no, i didnt know what to write | 16:07 |
| fenn | http://www.nataliedee.com/090208/you-are-free-to-learn-how-to-do-stuff-at-any-time.jpg | 16:40 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: the cad stuff is fine to write about. you'll get bonus points if you mention investigating the graphsynth codebase or something I guess. | 17:01 |
| kanzure__ | New neurophysiology notes. http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/?C=M;O=D | 17:05 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: for paul's licensing BS, http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.misc.discuss/browse_thread/thread/df4b4363d544f766?pli=1 , how about just a "casting" command to "cast" a package with a certain license. I guess a synonymous word would be 'signing', but whatever. | 17:14 |
| kanzure__ | castlicense -lLGPL my.deb | 17:14 |
| fenn | "a | 17:22 |
| kanzure__ | This was the idea of metatags on pages anyway.. | 17:22 |
| fenn | user contributing an extension to a GPL'd work" is either contributing under GPL or violating the terms of the license, so it's their problem | 17:22 |
| fenn | the squeak "wah. ignore" strategy seems like the wrong way to go | 17:23 |
| kanzure__ | all configure-make-makeinstall packages have a LICENSE file anyway. These are usually copies verbatim, so if Paul's so concerned then he should just do a diff/compare match and write a few notes with a markup language. | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: hm? | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | That the squeak community said ignore? | 17:24 |
| fenn | i guess | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | http://home.comcast.net/~arid_shadow/interface.png <- Paul's still linking to this. I don't think he understands. | 17:26 |
| kanzure__ | "Human Readable Text" getting the largest input field and a CAD file thingy for uploading .. it's odd, he seems to know technical details, but then he goes off promoting this sort of thing. | 17:27 |
| kanzure__ | only so much you can do with another implementation of Wikipedia .. | 17:27 |
| kanzure__ | (I know, I know, "but semantic mediawiki allows querying!" (yes, only if you know the ontology beforehand, which you don't. That's why you need to smash a few layers together.) | 17:28 |
| fenn | i hate paul's license management scenario | 17:30 |
| fenn | it's like DRM coming from your grandmother | 17:30 |
| kanzure__ | Paul gets very offensive with licenses. To the point where I think he's bullying me/SKDB/ADL almost. | 17:30 |
| kanzure__ | "Oh, you're not hip with GPL flashing over the place. You're evil until that's fixed." | 17:30 |
| fenn | unfortunately that's the way it is | 17:30 |
| kanzure__ | http://susaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/draft_consciousness_rpwl.pdf <- "Hard problem of consciousness solved", says Richard Loosemore. The abstract is all that matters, it's just some ontological dodging. | 17:31 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: Not true. I am living proof that Paul is false. | 17:31 |
| fenn | being a license nazi from the start is much less effort overall than realizing you goofed three years later and have to delete half your work | 17:32 |
| fenn | when you're investigating large numbers of libraries and software to integrate, tracking down the license information is a big chore | 17:33 |
| fenn | so yes, you should have a big red GPL stamp on the front page | 17:34 |
| fenn | (if that's true) | 17:34 |
| fenn | (which it isn't, in your case) | 17:34 |
| kanzure__ | And yet here I am, with content in the repositories (granted, bad content (in the sense that the data sucks anyway)). Maybe Paul's theory is that it was the grace of God that got me this far, and not my copy button. | 17:35 |
| fenn | no, he's saying you will get bit in the ass if you continue with this methodology | 17:36 |
| fenn | sharing books on your server is one thing.. building a career on illegal information is a dumb idea | 17:36 |
| fenn | or maybe that's what i'm saying | 17:37 |
| fenn | paul is saying he doesnt want to deal with it if it's "tainted" | 17:37 |
| fenn | it sucks that we have "evil by default" as the de-facto standard | 17:39 |
| fenn | i wonder if skdb/wahtever shouldn't have a human readable field, just to train people to not use it | 17:39 |
| kanzure__ | what do you mean by that? | 17:40 |
| kanzure__ | Where does human input come into play then? just wondering what you're talking about. | 17:40 |
| fenn | if it looks like a wiki, people are going to assume it's a wiki and then just ignore "all that complicated metadata stuff" | 17:41 |
| kanzure__ | Right. | 17:41 |
| fenn | and then we end up with appropedia and no metadata | 17:41 |
| kanzure__ | before /me forgets, I should get Hod Lipson's robot work to do robot ecologies for unstable mining operations, i.e. evolving robots that build better versions for the bad mining conditions. | 17:43 |
| kanzure__ | erm | 17:47 |
| kanzure__ | so I'm wondering what actual data we're supposed to have. | 17:47 |
| kanzure__ | Graph interconnectivity is relatively useless because of (1) how incredibly intense port connecting information from part to part would have to be, and (2) how we don't have that. | 17:48 |
| fenn | many product datasheets have Real Interface Specifications(tm) | 17:48 |
| fenn | especially if they come from a huge multinational corporation | 17:48 |
| fenn | most consumer crap doesnt come with a datasheet though | 17:49 |
| fenn | so, electronics components in general are pretty good about this | 17:50 |
| fenn | there's probably even a digital format already somewhere that i dont know about | 17:50 |
| fenn | then there's stuff like NEMA | 17:50 |
| kanzure__ | NEMA? | 17:51 |
| kanzure__ | .org | 17:51 |
| kanzure__ | ah. | 17:51 |
| fenn | for electrical stuff like motors and electrical outlets | 17:51 |
| kanzure__ | Yes, the electronics industry is pretty good about this. | 17:51 |
| fenn | because they have to design complex things | 17:51 |
| kanzure__ | Verilog/RTL/VHLI stuff is a good example of good design thingies. | 17:51 |
| kanzure__ | VHLI is wrong. | 17:51 |
| kanzure__ | What am I thinking of? | 17:51 |
| fenn | VHDL | 17:52 |
| fenn | i'm not really sure that's the same realm | 17:52 |
| fenn | those are more like "network topology" descriptions | 17:52 |
| kanzure__ | Algebraic languages for descriptions of the logic to be implemented | 17:52 |
| kanzure__ | yeah | 17:52 |
| fenn | there's no actual geometry or real physical units | 17:52 |
| kanzure__ | It was my understanding that at some point they have to convert to that sort of in-house understanding for how they are going to implement, say, a transistor | 17:52 |
| fenn | yes | 17:53 |
| fenn | "synthesis" | 17:53 |
| fenn | ~= CAM | 17:53 |
| kanzure__ | and then they go off to the computational physics gurus in the university | 17:53 |
| kanzure__ | and they figure out how transistors work with various constraints, then take that information into account, avoid overlap scenarios, etc. | 17:53 |
| kanzure__ | But that's because of the very specific research of the physicists. | 17:54 |
| fenn | not unless they are developing a transistor technology | 17:54 |
| fenn | most chips are 90% computer generated from design rules | 17:54 |
| kanzure__ | Where do you think those rules come from? The vacuum? | 17:54 |
| fenn | with humans to tweak the layout, like on a circuit board | 17:54 |
| fenn | i'm saying they dont have to write new rules every time | 17:54 |
| kanzure__ | 'course. | 17:54 |
| fenn | "Sorry, but I didn't know the patient needed heart medication because I could not access a copy of the patient medication records since the hospital DRM system payment account was temporarily overdrawn." all too true | 17:56 |
| fenn | haha "Our current copyright system is now in some ways like the American South before the Civil War where black people (or now "creative works") were often assumed to be a runaway slave unless they had their papers of freedom with them | 17:59 |
| kanzure__ | "minimum autodesign-capacity sufficiency: can the system sufficiently design the means to keep a small family (man, woman, pet and/or child) alive?" | 17:59 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: That's not Paul, is it? | 18:00 |
| fenn | yes and he goes on for another page or so in that vein | 18:01 |
| kanzure__ | oops, I must have not clicked 'read more' | 18:01 |
| kanzure__ | Is this on squeak? it failed to load for me | 18:02 |
| fenn | http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.misc.discuss/msg/11c0e6a52bc480e1? | 18:02 |
| fenn | near the bottom | 18:02 |
| * kanzure__ read it.] | 18:04 | |
| kanzure__ | Paul fails to provide me a meta-meta-meta-infinity license license license manager. | 18:05 |
| fenn | not necessary | 18:06 |
| kanzure__ | just like licenses. | 18:06 |
| fenn | license manager could bootstrap just as well as apt-get can bootstrap | 18:06 |
| kanzure__ | if you're worried about licenses, I guess you should bring it up with the chmod people. | 18:07 |
| fenn | i would certainly like to stop paying rent on this house i live in, for which the parasite who "owns" it reciprocates nothing | 18:07 |
| fenn | but then i would have to worry about dudes with guns coming, and having to schlepp all my stuff around | 18:08 |
| fenn | anyway the point is for use as a *tool* not a cantankerous burden that you have to deal with | 18:09 |
| fenn | the legal system is enough of a burden as is | 18:09 |
| fenn | the tool is for avoiding unforseen obstacles, and reducing the amount of effort for investigating beforehand | 18:09 |
| kanzure__ | this is boring. | 18:11 |
| fenn | why should i support unptnt? | 18:11 |
| fenn | they look like double-alpha-secret capitalists to me | 18:11 |
| kanzure__ | I figure if they end up having anything of value, they might slap up the AJAX-graph-stuff and feed us data. | 18:12 |
| kanzure__ | I'm supposed to be doing some 'preference modeling of what a designer wants to see'. | 18:12 |
| fenn | we dont need any more crap data | 18:12 |
| kanzure__ | and this requires a lot of data. | 18:12 |
| fenn | wtf is preference modeling | 18:12 |
| kanzure__ | no, this isn't for crap data, this is for user input on what they like / don't like in terms of designs that they see | 18:12 |
| kanzure__ | well, "I hate this graph. Show me another!" | 18:12 |
| kanzure__ | "yessir. how about something practically the same?" "off with your head!" | 18:13 |
| fenn | you can do that with randomly generated or GA generated graphs | 18:13 |
| kanzure__ | guess what I'm doing. | 18:13 |
| kanzure__ | heh' | 18:13 |
| fenn | i had this program for the mac plus called "blind watchmaker" | 18:13 |
| fenn | which was essentially that | 18:13 |
| kanzure__ | the substitution rules are randomly generated at the moment. so I have 2.9 GB of 1,000,000 rules (I know, stupid) | 18:13 |
| kanzure__ | stupid format too, all XMLy and lots of overhead | 18:13 |
| fenn | you could "evolve" weird animals/plants or whatever (they were just IFS fractals i think) | 18:13 |
| kanzure__ | *it's stupid | 18:14 |
| fenn | gzip | 18:14 |
| kanzure__ | on the fly uncompression of the whole thing when you scan through the directory of rules to apply to a certain graph? | 18:14 |
| kanzure__ | decompression. whatever. | 18:14 |
| fenn | ya | 18:14 |
| kanzure__ | That sounds even more computationally intense. | 18:14 |
| fenn | well, why are you using 1000000 rules? | 18:15 |
| kanzure__ | because I wanted to emphasize that they were randomly generated | 18:15 |
| fenn | dude, read NKS | 18:15 |
| kanzure__ | we have a set of 150 useful rules that the last undergrad made. | 18:15 |
| fenn | you dont need a lot of rules | 18:15 |
| kanzure__ | hm? | 18:15 |
| kanzure__ | cellular automata don't do full recursion of the graphs fwiw. | 18:16 |
| fenn | he has a chapter on substitution systems | 18:16 |
| fenn | even a section on substitution networks | 18:16 |
| kanzure__ | oh, okay. that's a good excuse for me to finally read NKS. | 18:16 |
| fenn | but the point is that the same characteristics appear in the system's behavior as with other simple sets of rules | 18:17 |
| fenn | and also that more complex sets of rules dont yield more complex behavior | 18:17 |
| kanzure__ | well the idea is also to try to figure out what to map user preferences to, so if you have only 10 axiomatic rules, that might not be enough to figure out what the user likes, whereas the larger rules which are found in patterns in reverse engineered systems and such, might be the "points in conceptual space" or whatever, that mathematically would be good matches and thus make for the things that you should push to the top of the queue for | 18:19 |
| kanzure__ | gah, that's long-winded. | 18:19 |
| fenn | "push to the top of the queue for..." cutoff | 18:19 |
| fenn | oh that was the end | 18:20 |
| kanzure__ | "substitutions to make next" | 18:20 |
| kanzure__ | was the end. | 18:20 |
| kanzure__ | (in quotes too) | 18:20 |
| fenn | oh well, i still dont get the whole substitution system concept anyway | 18:20 |
| kanzure__ | Do you want to? | 18:21 |
| fenn | well i hope it actually contains value... | 18:21 |
| kanzure__ | did graphsynth start working? | 18:21 |
| fenn | no | 18:21 |
| fenn | it crashes a lot | 18:21 |
| kanzure__ | the way the graph substitutions work is that you're given basically a "dot file" for all practical purposes, and you have your substitution rule that looks for a certain subgraph in user provided input; given a match, the "right hand side" of the substitution rule is employed, thus replacing the subgraph with the 'implementation graph' (CFG) | 18:22 |
| kanzure__ | so if you see "import -> channel -> export" and you have a rule for "channel" to translate that to "GIANT METAL PIPE", then that's a valid branch to follow in the tree. Then you have "import -> GIANT METAL PIPE -> export" | 18:22 |
| kanzure__ | and the only things left to change are input-> and ->export, the CFG part being 'untouchable'. | 18:23 |
| fenn | what is this subgraph supposed to look like? | 18:23 |
| kanzure__ | (unless there's a rule that manipulates CFGs too) | 18:23 |
| kanzure__ | well, that's what the substitution rule file contains. | 18:23 |
| kanzure__ | the left hand side has the subgraph to look for | 18:23 |
| kanzure__ | and if it matches the user input, or current graph in the tree of possibilities, then you know you have a match and a possible way to do yet another branch | 18:24 |
| fenn | what about multiple possible solutions? | 18:24 |
| kanzure__ | those are accounted for, yeah | 18:25 |
| fenn | "accounted for"? | 18:25 |
| kanzure__ | so if you see that it applies twice in the graph, then those are two branches to follow | 18:25 |
| fenn | and you follow all the branches? | 18:25 |
| kanzure__ | well. | 18:25 |
| fenn | seems computationally intractable | 18:25 |
| kanzure__ | graphsynth currently "takes the user's hand down a path", so it's stochastic, one-off. | 18:26 |
| * fenn grumbles about ghost diagrams | 18:26 | |
| kanzure__ | my approach was "do the computationally intractable thingy, until you get input from the user (asynchronous) telling you to stop going down a particular type of path, unless you've exhausted options, in which case you should just consider the user to be wrong/incorrect/inconsistent in his preferences" | 18:26 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: grumbling about them to campbell would be fine methinks | 18:26 |
| fenn | i'm still stuck with figuring out how to translate this paradigm into my own thoughts re: skdb | 18:27 |
| fenn | it seems like a subgraph is an interface, and a rule is when two parts are connected, but i'm not sure | 18:29 |
| kanzure__ | oh, that would be a neat way to do it, but unfortunately not. | 18:30 |
| kanzure__ | okay, so the translation is that a 'graph' represents some system, like electrical circuits, | 18:31 |
| kanzure__ | and the 'substitution rules' would be generated from valid ways of recognizing nodes on the graph (components I guess) and then offering possible ways of reconnecting them | 18:31 |
| fenn | but if each node represents only a specific component, it would be very inflexible | 18:31 |
| fenn | its like black boxing | 18:31 |
| kanzure__ | yes, it is like blackboxing. | 18:31 |
| fenn | poop on that | 18:31 |
| kanzure__ | turtles, remember? :-/ | 18:32 |
| fenn | its drafting | 18:32 |
| kanzure__ | Not even drafting. | 18:32 |
| fenn | yeah at least drafting conveys knowledge | 18:32 |
| fenn | why is everyone doing it wrong | 18:33 |
| fenn | gah | 18:33 |
| fenn | fuck earth | 18:33 |
| kanzure__ | we need you! | 18:33 |
| kanzure__ | but really, it's obvious that there's more that could be done here. | 18:34 |
| fenn | a NEMA 34 motor mount has four 3/8-16 tapped holes in a 3 inch square | 18:34 |
| fenn | what is the basic unit in the graph, the NEMA34, or each of the bolt holes? | 18:34 |
| fenn | and a square, and a 3 inch dimension | 18:35 |
| fenn | i'm thinking the subgraph should be (square x 3/8-16 x 3") | 18:35 |
| fenn | and who gives a fuck what it's called | 18:35 |
| fenn | and if you only have M8 bolts, then you can fix the rule to allow a size range instead of just that specific thread size | 18:36 |
| fenn | you should be able to generalize it down to however many turtles you wish | 18:38 |
| fenn | i mean the motor could be welded on, or duct taped on, or held in place with a rabid bulldog | 18:39 |
| kanzure__ | the basic unit is the NMEA34 | 18:40 |
| kanzure__ | in the current setup. | 18:40 |
| fenn | it's not a specific motor though, right? | 18:41 |
| fenn | so i could pick any nema34 motor from various manufacturers | 18:41 |
| kanzure__ | at the moment it's based off of labels (although more parameters could be added I guess) | 18:43 |
| kanzure__ | so if your 'rule set' has a rule that is specific to a specific motor, then yes it is? | 18:43 |
| UtopiahGHML | can someone access the video of http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/displayevent.aspx?rID=27626&fID=345 ? | 18:44 |
| fenn | UtopiahGHML: i'm going to guess no | 18:44 |
| fenn | but i'll try, JUST FOR YOU | 18:44 |
| UtopiahGHML | fenn: you are going to make me blush :-# | 18:45 |
| fenn | UtopiahGHML: there is no video for that talk, hence the green freedesktop-ish logo | 18:51 |
| * kanzure__ goes off to chem. | 18:52 | |
| UtopiahGHML | "Runtime:00:56:30" so how could there be no video? it has also been published on YouTube but removed right after it (Ive seen it on the RSS feed) | 18:54 |
| UtopiahGHML | :( | 18:54 |
| fenn | maybe the dreaded copyright beast attacked in the night | 18:54 |
| fenn | won't someone save us from this monster! | 18:55 |
| fenn | interesting series though, like TED | 18:55 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep, and the SEED ones too and the VideoLectures.net too | 18:55 |
| fenn | videolectures.net is just droning MIT professors :) | 18:56 |
| fenn | anyway did i mention i hate video | 18:57 |
| kanzure__ | Screw chem. I'm too hooked on 'golly', the CA visualizer. | 18:57 |
| UtopiahGHML | they are just feaking lazy I asked for an RSS feeds years ago and they said "yeah yeah yeah we are working on it"... | 18:57 |
| fenn | you need an Autoverse simulator! | 18:58 |
| fenn | oh, you never read permutation city | 18:59 |
| fenn | autoverse = CA universe simulator that approximates real-world chemistry | 18:59 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: but, if it means anything to you, the gear stuff can be exported to schematics/drafting for final results. | 19:05 |
| kanzure__ | (since I have the 3D model anyway) | 19:05 |
| fenn | = "let a human figure it out" | 19:05 |
| fenn | oh well its better than nothing | 19:05 |
| kanzure__ | ok, ok, also an export to gcode if emc has its end held up. | 19:06 |
| kanzure__ | *if it holds up its end | 19:06 |
| fenn | you cant really cut gears with a milling machine | 19:06 |
| fenn | you have to make a special cutter and then spin things at certain rates and positioned at various angles relative to each other | 19:06 |
| fenn | it would be possible to do on a milling machine, but you cant just trace the outline with an endmill | 19:07 |
| fenn | unless they're big fisher-price gears | 19:07 |
| xp_prg | kanzure__ any progress? | 19:09 |
| kanzure__ | No. I've been doing other things. | 19:12 |
| xp_prg | ok just wondering | 19:12 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: best if you send the email sooner rather than later, since directional pushes away from sloppy graphs might be possible.. maybe. | 19:18 |
| * kanzure__ sits around wondering what to do. watches CA. | 19:18 | |
| kanzure__ | Actually, I know what to do, I'm just not doing it. | 19:19 |
| marcel | kanzure find a girl to fuck! | 19:19 |
| marcel | ^^ | 19:19 |
| kanzure__ | basically diagnostics on the traversal algorithms for finding "placed" graphs within the trees that I want to see if the software will want to show me upfront | 19:21 |
| kanzure__ | but the fundamental formatting issues still have to be addressed. I mean, it stores some of the useful information but not quite "all of it", but to prove this I'd have to have "all", which I don't, because the format doesn't have "it" (supposedly) | 19:21 |
| kanzure__ | Boy this is confusing. :) | 19:21 |
| kanzure__ | http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1145699498/9#9 | 19:25 |
| kanzure__ | http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/making_open_hardware_possible?page=0%2C1 more licensing crap | 19:28 |
| fenn | it's important to understand that article | 19:47 |
| kanzure__ | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-14_emachineshop.png <- Lookie. | 19:48 |
| kanzure__ | I understand all of this licensing stuff, but that doesn't mean I want to. | 19:49 |
| fenn | i feel the same way about cryptography | 19:49 |
| kanzure__ | So I like how they have that link to matweb. | 19:51 |
| fenn | where? | 19:52 |
| kanzure__ | in the screenshot. | 19:52 |
| kanzure__ | Material window. | 19:53 |
| kanzure__ | Upper right. | 19:53 |
| fenn | ah | 19:53 |
| kanzure__ | They seem to be using their own proprietary 3D part representation. | 19:53 |
| kanzure__ | dot "ems" | 19:53 |
| fenn | rather useless link | 19:53 |
| fenn | can you click on the material names and see specifications? | 19:54 |
| kanzure__ | right, what guarantee that they have the same exact materials inhouse? | 19:54 |
| kanzure__ | no, only those numbers on that display there | 19:54 |
| kanzure__ | but the "Compatible with .." message changes, which I like. | 19:54 |
| fenn | oh, i guess there are more numbers and stuff if you scroll | 19:54 |
| fenn | eh.. stainless is "compatible" with milling but it's a lot harder to do | 19:55 |
| fenn | what is VR cost? | 19:55 |
| kanzure__ | I don't know. /me moves back to that computer | 19:56 |
| kanzure__ | variable relative cost | 19:56 |
| fenn | derr.. is that like, dollars weighted for inflation or something? | 19:57 |
| fenn | hey that's not your gear | 19:58 |
| fenn | its a demo file | 19:58 |
| kanzure__ | http://www.emachineshop.com/users/index.htm | 19:58 |
| kanzure__ | it's like relative material cost I guess.. "this is generally cheaper" ? I don't know. | 19:58 |
| kanzure__ | this is just some commercial stuff from http://emachineshop.com/ | 19:58 |
| kanzure__ | http://www.emachineshop.com/machines/metal_fabrication.htm | 19:59 |
| kanzure__ | I wonder where they are getting their material pricing information. | 20:00 |
| fenn | their metal supplier probably | 20:00 |
| fenn | i wonder how well emachineshop scales | 20:01 |
| fenn | and data interoperability seems like a huge issue | 20:02 |
| fenn | oh "simple just use our software from start to finish" | 20:03 |
| fenn | bah | 20:03 |
| fenn | 2.5D only | 20:03 |
| kanzure__ | nope, 3D visualization was in my screenshot | 20:08 |
| kanzure__ | they claim 100,000 units is an ok order | 20:08 |
| kanzure__ | maybe they're using onlinemetals.com heh' | 20:08 |
| fenn | what was the "deal" with onlinemetals you were talking about? | 20:09 |
| kanzure__ | they want a backend for XML price quoting and order placement | 20:09 |
| fenn | uh, writing software for them isnt much of a deal :( | 20:10 |
| kanzure__ | it is if I get to use it :) | 20:10 |
| kanzure__ | I mean, an open interface | 20:10 |
| kanzure__ | for purchasing metals and such. | 20:10 |
| kanzure__ | 'The so-called "Free Dog" organization ( Freeedaug ) meets in the Boston area and discusses gEDA and related topics.' | 20:12 |
| fenn | gEDA certainly toots its horn | 20:15 |
| kanzure__ | as it should. | 20:16 |
| fenn | too bad it sucks :* | 20:16 |
| kanzure__ | oh? | 20:16 |
| kanzure__ | I've used it like, twice. | 20:16 |
| kanzure__ | so I'm not remembering how it sucks. | 20:16 |
| fenn | its about as bad as any EDA software i suppose | 20:16 |
| kanzure__ | hm. so ngspice apparently takes a circuit and generates a simulator for that specific circuit. | 20:20 |
| kanzure__ | which is the "each component brings some equations to the table" approach or something | 20:20 |
| fenn | i wouldnt say "generates a simulator" | 20:20 |
| fenn | it's nodal analysis (aka "lumped circuit model") | 20:21 |
| kanzure__ | "The Spice Library. It takes a circuit description and builds a simulator from it." /ng-spice-rework-17/src/spicelib/ | 20:21 |
| kanzure__ | hm. | 20:21 |
| fenn | it's pretty good as far as simulators go though | 20:22 |
| fenn | cant do digital electronics though | 20:22 |
| kanzure__ | oh really? | 20:22 |
| kanzure__ | that's odd. why? | 20:22 |
| fenn | too complex | 20:22 |
| fenn | and you dont have the specs anyway | 20:22 |
| kanzure__ | wtf, no results on sf.net for 'mechanical' | 20:23 |
| kanzure__ | oh, but what about parts libraries? | 20:23 |
| kanzure__ | and what's complex about it? | 20:23 |
| kanzure__ | I used to run a simulator back in high school for electronics | 20:23 |
| kanzure__ | it was some commercial software package of course | 20:23 |
| fenn | there are some projects to integrate digital 'black boxes' into a spice-ish environment, for example qucs or ktechlab | 20:23 |
| fenn | hmm maybe not qucs | 20:24 |
| kanzure__ | http://ktechlab.org/ | 20:24 |
| fenn | gpsim? | 20:24 |
| kanzure__ | http://gpsim.sourceforge.net/ | 20:25 |
| fenn | not gpsim | 20:25 |
| fenn | it's a hard problem | 20:25 |
| fenn | this appears to do mixed signals; | 20:26 |
| fenn | http://ktechlab.org/wiki/index.php?title=Index:Screenshots | 20:26 |
| kanzure__ | I thought it would just be this messy hierarchical PDE (for a given circuit of some system) | 20:26 |
| kanzure__ | well, not for digital circuits | 20:26 |
| kanzure__ | what is the simulation supposed to do? timestep simulation? | 20:26 |
| fenn | vs PDE? i dont know | 20:27 |
| fenn | "Variable time step in Simulation" | 20:27 |
| fenn | http://www.opencollector.org/summary.php | 20:28 |
| fenn | lots of simulators there | 20:28 |
| kanzure__ | apt-cache show model-builder, <- what's going on there? hm. | 20:29 |
| fenn | looks more or less like gnuplot | 20:31 |
| * kanzure__ grabs half a GB of simulators in apt | 20:31 | |
| kanzure__ | five minutes to go. not bad. | 20:31 |
| fenn | i like ktechlab, it's easy for beginners | 20:33 |
| fenn | and since you should never trust a simulator anyway, that's about as far as it needs to go | 20:33 |
| kanzure__ | come to think of it, why do I have rules at the moment | 20:43 |
| kanzure__ | if they are randomly generated anyway, just say everything can connect to everything else, | 20:43 |
| kanzure__ | then just keep track of what connected things were a /bad/ idea. | 20:43 |
| kanzure__ | basically the same result .. | 20:43 |
| fenn | most of them will be a bad idea | 20:44 |
| kanzure__ | 'Automatic reconstruction of 3D solid objects from 2D orthographic views' | 21:00 |
| kanzure__ | bwahah | 21:00 |
| * fenn is skeptical | 21:03 | |
| fenn | god i hate doing self promotion | 21:50 |
| fenn | it just sounds so cheesy | 21:51 |
| fenn | "And probably most important, I'm passionate about creating a new paradigm of personal and | 21:51 |
| fenn | open manufacturing" | 21:51 |
| UtopiahGHML | fenn: what about the very cheesy "democratizing innovation"? eventually referring to work from Erik Von Hippel | 22:13 |
| gene | you there kanzure? | 22:17 |
| fenn | UtopiahGHML: i dont care about "democratizing" i care about empowering individuals | 22:22 |
| fenn | the more empowered individuals the better | 22:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | and work from Von Hippel isn't about that? | 22:24 |
| fenn | i guess that is what he is saying | 22:24 |
| fenn | i havent read it | 22:24 |
| fenn | to me, "democracy" means majority rule | 22:24 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://web.mit.edu/evhippel/www/democ1.htm | 22:25 |
| UtopiahGHML | (even empowering those http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-7625142738072469708 ?) | 22:28 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: there's a certain amount of self-promotion that is legit and a certain amount that is bad-legit, like "most importantly I'm passionate .." <- (probably) bad. | 23:12 |
| kanzure_ | I should send you teh email I sent Campbell | 23:13 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: Sent. His response was "When are you coming by?" | 23:18 |
| kanzure_ | so he's somewhat more of a phone guy I guess. | 23:19 |
| fenn | ack | 23:24 |
| fenn | did you already get and forward the email i just sent? | 23:24 |
| kanzure_ | No. | 23:24 |
| kanzure_ | I didn't get. | 23:24 |
| kanzure_ | when did you send? | 23:24 |
| fenn | i'm confused, you just sent me an example? your own introductory email to campbell | 23:25 |
| kanzure_ | ah, just got it | 23:25 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, that's what I sent to him | 23:25 |
| fenn | so " fenn: Sent." was in response to what? | 23:25 |
| fenn | is he still at the lab? | 23:26 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: Sent was in respone to my "I should send you .." | 23:27 |
| kanzure_ | He's probably not, I sometimes catch him leaving and it's consistently at five. | 23:28 |
| kanzure_ | in fact, all of my professors tend to leave at five. | 23:28 |
| fenn | hmph | 23:28 |
| kanzure_ | So anyway, two things stuck out at me | 23:28 |
| kanzure_ | first of all, campbell is like a comp sci guy somehow randomly in mechanical engineering, you see papers all out on his desk and they're from "European Journal of Graphical Network Theory" and so on :-p | 23:29 |
| fenn | yes i gathered that much | 23:29 |
| kanzure_ | so when you emphasize "get something done", you should also throw in something that says "applied algorithms are cool" | 23:29 |
| kanzure_ | or something :p | 23:29 |
| fenn | guh | 23:30 |
| fenn | but that's totally false | 23:30 |
| kanzure_ | tree traversal is an algorithm. | 23:30 |
| fenn | but it's a trivial part of the whole system | 23:30 |
| kanzure_ | heh. | 23:30 |
| fenn | "for loops are super neato" | 23:30 |
| fenn | well, yeah, for loops are necessary for an automated engineering system, i guess | 23:31 |
| fenn | unless you use lisp | 23:31 |
| kanzure_ | I know, they are trivial, but | 23:31 |
| kanzure_ | okay. | 23:31 |
| kanzure_ | so you need to sprinkle in some graduate-level goodness I guess, | 23:32 |
| kanzure_ | worshiping algorithms might not be the way to do it | 23:32 |
| fenn | yeah i wasnt feeling very inspired when i wrote that | 23:32 |
| fenn | so it's just a glorified resume really | 23:32 |
| fenn | i never took any comp-sci classes, or engineering classes | 23:33 |
| fenn | so i have no idea what's "graduate level" in those fields | 23:33 |
| kanzure_ | I guess I haven't either, and the ones that I have taken (AP comp sci, me302) have been jokes | 23:33 |
| kanzure_ | bad jokes :( | 23:33 |
| fenn | however i do know what is used in reality and what works | 23:33 |
| fenn | so i dont see spouting off various tree traversal algorithms as being the right thing to do | 23:34 |
| kanzure_ | that's fine. | 23:34 |
| kanzure_ | oh, at the very end of the message is maybe the place to put "I have a bachelors degree." or a giant indicator saying "This is that graduate student you are looking for" | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | I know it's in your resume, but whatever. | 23:35 |
| fenn | haha but there's the catch | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | you don't? | 23:36 |
| kanzure_ | oh that's right, you dropped didn't you? | 23:36 |
| fenn | if i mention "graduate student" that files me immediately into the "i want to be a grad student" category | 23:36 |
| fenn | no, i have a degree | 23:36 |
| kanzure_ | okay, then indicate that you could do "full time" (whatever that is) | 23:36 |
| fenn | righto | 23:36 |
| kanzure_ | emphasis on VOICED is good .. a one-off link to the p2pfoundation.net blog post about it and quoting the paragraph, the one that talks about it, and then saying something like "I WANT TO DO THIS / kinda doing it anyway unless I have to go do manual labor." | 23:41 |
| kanzure_ | anyway, besides that I think it's ok | 23:41 |
| kanzure_ | we could do this a few ways. I could double check and see if he's most definitely looking for a full time person to work on the project, or you could just dump the email to him out of the blue. | 23:42 |
| fenn | what else are they doing besides voiced and design repo? | 23:45 |
| kanzure_ | some stuff on preference modeling, trying to figure out how to get the best thing out of the possibility space of designs, the gear stuff, sheet metal folding rules for graphsynth | 23:46 |
| fenn | huh. graphsynth does sheet metal? | 23:47 |
| kanzure_ | it's just the substitution rules, so if you come up with a set of rules for a given domain, yes | 23:47 |
| fenn | have you actually talked to him about skdb? | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | yes. | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | so while he knows a bit about it, he's more interested in just doing stuff with the repository data more than anything, and since that data doesn't exist, there's not much that we can do with it | 23:52 |
| kanzure_ | so, if there was to be some sort of good file format already available with more usable variables, I could totally push that | 23:52 |
| kanzure_ | but all that we have is content of the format that graphsynth takes up, which leads to playing around with search trees more than anything else. | 23:52 |
| fenn | right | 23:53 |
| fenn | where did the data come from? (who entered it) | 23:53 |
| fenn | (and what were they thinking!!!) | 23:53 |
| kanzure_ | mst.edu | 23:53 |
| kanzure_ | http://repository.designengineeringlab.org/ | 23:54 |
| fenn | Product armadillo armor was added to the repository. | 23:54 |
| kanzure_ | so we've talked with them, as I've mentioned, about possibly redoing the repository database format or whatever to capture the information that campbell is interested in (like the way that artifacts solve functions etc.) | 23:54 |
| fenn | Product puffer fish was added to the repository. | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | hrm | 23:55 |
| fenn | Product two component regulatory system was added to the repository. | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | wtf. | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | is this recent? | 23:55 |
| fenn | ya | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | note that the repository stuff is GPL'ed :) so that's good. not the data though. | 23:55 |
| fenn | meh | 23:55 |
| fenn | its not hard to write a data entry form | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | right, and their form sucks because you can get away with fucking up the db | 23:56 |
| fenn | it takes a while to get good measurements of real world stuff though | 23:56 |
| fenn | i would probably just make new data | 23:56 |
| fenn | instead of trying to save the design repo stuff | 23:56 |
| kanzure_ | you might want to mention that in the email, if it's not too crowded. | 23:57 |
| fenn | no, i dont want to tell him how all his stuff sucks in the intro email | 23:57 |
| kanzure_ | probably a good idea. | 23:57 |
| fenn | so, on a tangent | 23:58 |
| fenn | what do you think about having a virtual environment to play with virtual artifacts in? | 23:58 |
| fenn | like the "love" environment | 23:58 |
| kanzure_ | if you say the word 'simulator' in the email, or mention how you worship Hod Lipson (do you?), that is bonus points | 23:59 |
| kanzure_ | love environment? I'm not familiar with that. | 23:59 |
| fenn | hod lipson has a lot of cool stuff, ya | 23:59 |
| fenn | he also suffers from academic head-up-the-assness | 23:59 |
| fenn | oh well | 23:59 |
| fenn | love = quelsolaar.com | 23:59 |
| kanzure_ | hod is a friend of campbell, just for the record | 23:59 |
| * kanzure_ checks | 23:59 | |
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