| --- Day changed Wed Dec 03 2008 | ||
| fenn | hmmm "blue light hazard" makes me wonder about light therapy for non-24 hour circadian stuffs | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | blue light is 2x as effective as white light | 00:15 |
| kanzure | yay, supercontraption compiles on linux after adding in some include <string.h>'s in the right locations. | 00:30 |
| kanzure | super > fantastic, right?? | 00:30 |
| willPow3r | kanzure, according to snake, rattle, and roll, no | 00:31 |
| kanzure | snake, rattle and what? | 00:32 |
| willPow3r | old nintendo game | 00:32 |
| kanzure | Rareware? | 00:32 |
| willPow3r | yea | 00:32 |
| kanzure | Wikipedia's not being helpful .. what was the gameplay like? | 00:33 |
| willPow3r | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Rattle_%27n%27_Roll | 00:33 |
| willPow3r | http://www.flyingomelette.com/reviews/nes/snakernr.html | 00:35 |
| willPow3r | ^^ better link | 00:35 |
| wrldpc_ | http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0805/NaturalSpirals.jpg | 01:01 |
| wrldpc_ | re: the zipf's law | 01:01 |
| wrldpc_ | pardon the blatancy | 01:01 |
| kanzure_ | Heh. | 01:01 |
| wrldpc_ | wolfram | 01:01 |
| -!- percent is now known as jihaaad | 02:16 | |
| kanzure | Hm. I wonder if the solid links are just really a joint at each end of a solid rectangle | 02:42 |
| ybit | anyone know some good books on the cerebellum? | 03:08 |
| kanzure | bias: any paper referenced by Mauk | 03:08 |
| kanzure | in fact, | 03:09 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/ | 03:09 |
| kanzure | check the syllabus, there should be a book referenced in there | 03:09 |
| kanzure_ | Holy shit the fantasticcontraption guy is a jerk | 04:13 |
| kanzure_ | "Seriously. This is what's wrong with the flash gaming world. WRITE | 04:13 |
| kanzure_ | YOUR OWN GAME. Don't clone someone elses. | 04:13 |
| kanzure_ | Creativity? Anyone?" | 04:13 |
| kanzure_ | This guy is a little too easy to figure out. http://www.colinnorthway.com/forum/ | 04:26 |
| kanzure_ | http://magic.pen.fizzlebot.com/ | 04:27 |
| kanzure_ | http://ishi.blog2.fc2.com/blog-entry-206.html | 04:27 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.yoyogames.com/games/show/23266 | 04:28 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.deleongames.com/nesky/index.php?page=forklift | 04:28 |
| kanzure_ | the incredible machine | 04:28 |
| kanzure_ | armadillo run (which is fantastic) | 04:28 |
| kanzure_ | world of goo | 04:28 |
| kanzure | yep, he has a level XML file | 04:33 |
| kanzure | Why do people insist on pissing me off? | 04:33 |
| kanzure_ | "Colin, this game is great! I'm not going to ask how you did it, but I love the way it looks and the animation is so clever! I'm having fun just watching what happens when I don't get it right, but it feels super when I succeed. Thanks for sending it my way. Aunt Chris" | 04:43 |
| kanzure_ | Aww. | 04:43 |
| kanzure_ | heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/videos/ | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/level.xml | 04:50 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/forumposts/ | 04:50 |
| kanzure | gene: Do you know of fantasticcontraption, the incredible machine, armadillo run or world of goo? | 05:10 |
| gene | yeah | 05:10 |
| gene | vaguely | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/2008-12-02_box2d_3.PNG | 05:10 |
| gene | Installed armadillo run on my old computer | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | ^ my clone of the game. | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | http://fantasticcontraption.com/ | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | There's also a Theo Jansen contraption - | 05:11 |
| gene | you made it today? | 05:11 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/2008-12-02_box2d_2.PNG | 05:11 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 05:11 |
| gene | for adl? | 05:11 |
| kanzure_ | sort of. More for myself. | 05:11 |
| xp_prg | kanzure_ hey man! | 05:11 |
| kanzure | Hello. | 05:12 |
| gene | how does it store teh data? | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | gene: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/level.xml | 05:12 |
| gene | almost a tree format, but not quite | 05:12 |
| gene | looks like it might be hard to do ADL with that | 05:13 |
| kanzure | nope, graphsynth generates gxml files | 05:13 |
| kanzure | so I just need to convert gxml to this particular form of xml | 05:13 |
| gene | all rigid chips models are essentially trees you know | 05:13 |
| kanzure | since Pradeep (in the lab) already does mechanisms like four bars etc., this is just plug-and-play (for him at least) | 05:13 |
| gene | what are four bars? | 05:14 |
| kanzure | hell if I know | 05:14 |
| kanzure | I think I'm supposed to know though | 05:14 |
| kanzure | something about a link, two joints and something else | 05:14 |
| gene | well introduce the ADL people to rigid chips plz | 05:14 |
| gene | people have already made genetic algorithms in it | 05:14 |
| gene | that can actually put up a fair fight | 05:15 |
| kanzure | ADL hates GAs :) | 05:15 |
| gene | why? | 05:15 |
| kanzure | GAs are not the entirety of search algorithms. | 05:15 |
| kanzure | there's other methods that we implement as well as GAs, but anyway | 05:15 |
| gene | I want to see what those algorithms can do with rigidchips | 05:19 |
| kanzure | graphsynth is a free download | 05:19 |
| gene | if they actually find the best way to build a spaceship a tank or what not | 05:19 |
| gene | rigidchips is a free download | 05:20 |
| kanzure | we've already gone over this. | 05:20 |
| gene | explain graphsynth again | 05:21 |
| kanzure | graph grammars = substitution rules for subgraphs, the translation of gxml seed graphs into gxml final graphs (with optimizations sometimes) based off of grxml files (the substitution rules, which match left-hand-sides with host graphs) | 05:22 |
| kanzure | then there's various types of searching methods, like breadth-first and depth-first | 05:22 |
| gene | ok | 05:22 |
| kanzure | informed search is one that I'm implementing for designer preference modeling | 05:22 |
| gene | so how do I use it to make a XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX | 05:22 |
| kanzure | what conditions would you say an XXXXXXXXXXX is made. | 05:23 |
| gene | what are conditions? | 05:23 |
| kanzure | well, I don't know what an XXXXXXXX is | 05:24 |
| kanzure | so how would the software know too? | 05:24 |
| gene | a turbine | 05:25 |
| gene | string XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX = "turbine" | 05:25 |
| kanzure | but how does it know what a turbine is? | 05:25 |
| gene | give an example of what conditions would be for a turbine | 05:26 |
| kanzure | well, basically what you would do is figure out the requirements that you have for the turbine | 05:27 |
| kanzure | I'm guessing this would mean some dimensional analysis stuff | 05:27 |
| kanzure | and then you would go get a ruleset that matches this situation, and have it run over your "seed graph" (the requirements, or the general function structure - the conversion of electrical energy into rotational mechanhical energy) | 05:27 |
| gene | size 0.5 in sq | 05:27 |
| kanzure | right, right | 05:27 |
| kanzure | so that's how it would do it. | 05:27 |
| kanzure | it would then generate all possible graphs based off of the tree search parameters (depth, for instance) | 05:28 |
| kanzure | at the moment not so much on 3D shape generation though, that's something that an optimizer module would have to do | 05:28 |
| kanzure | Albert/Pradeep both have optimizer modules for their gears/mechanisms for instance | 05:28 |
| gene | generate lots of thrust using the least amount of butane fuel | 05:28 |
| gene | that sucks | 05:28 |
| gene | we really need something that can make it's own optimizer modules | 05:28 |
| gene | by itself | 05:29 |
| kanzure | you can't create something from nothing | 05:29 |
| gene | yeah | 05:30 |
| gene | have it browse the internet make inferences from things | 05:30 |
| gene | but that might be a bit far off | 05:30 |
| kanzure | you forget that I'm kind of in the ai crowd | 05:31 |
| kanzure | it's not "far off", it's just worng. | 05:31 |
| kanzure | *wrong | 05:31 |
| gene | ok | 05:31 |
| gene | humans can do it | 05:31 |
| kanzure | but if you want to look at inference engines | 05:31 |
| kanzure | there's lots of theorem solvers | 05:31 |
| kanzure | can they? | 05:31 |
| kanzure | Humans tend to suck at design from what I can see | 05:31 |
| gene | I know | 05:31 |
| gene | how do automatically design a part assembling robot? | 05:32 |
| kanzure | again it's about the requirements specification format I think | 05:33 |
| kanzure | if you have an assembly then I suspect we could come up with mechanism designs that would then translate into physical motions | 05:33 |
| kanzure | and the one that properly fits them together from feed lines is teh win | 05:33 |
| kanzure | it probably could be a one-off generator, rather than generating multiple designs | 05:33 |
| kanzure | since most assembly is simple actuators lined up or something | 05:33 |
| gene | ok I think I might have something for you | 05:35 |
| gene | make a mechanism to put control and drive units into a unassembled robot | 05:35 |
| gene | A VERY SMALL ROBOT | 05:36 |
| gene | as fast as you possibly can | 05:36 |
| gene | I've been contemplating designing a micromachine | 05:36 |
| gene | a tiny swimming robot | 05:37 |
| gene | one of the problems I might encounter is integrating an electronics package(for sensors and stuff) and drive components(think magnets) | 05:39 |
| gene | of course it might be possible to make a robot driven completely by sound, using fluidic logic and stuff like that | 05:41 |
| gene | but what's the fun in that? | 05:41 |
| gene | the problem is, it's very hard to do economical assembly of parts on a small scale | 05:42 |
| kanzure | Hi Ghost` . | 05:56 |
| Ghost` | hey kanzure! | 05:56 |
| Ghost` | i think i was ok at the AI exam! | 05:57 |
| gene | did you pass the turing test? | 05:57 |
| Ghost` | this teacher is kinda chaotic (which is ironic enough for such a logic-influenced subject) | 05:57 |
| Ghost` | ahahahaha | 05:57 |
| Ghost` | that one is tricky | 05:58 |
| Ghost` | but i`ve got a breach on it.. you can pretend you`re a human pretending you`re a machine ;) | 05:58 |
| Ghost` | the human on the other side will think you`re just a human pretending you`re a machine, and will vote that you`re a human xD | 05:59 |
| gene | ever program boids? | 06:00 |
| Ghost` | this can be done with a pretty small knowledge base! | 06:00 |
| Ghost` | boids? | 06:00 |
| gene | yeah | 06:00 |
| gene | or any swarms? | 06:00 |
| Ghost` | i know, but whats that | 06:00 |
| Ghost` | well, there is a game called grobots, which i`ve been involved with for some time | 06:00 |
| Ghost` | i`ve been willing to alloc more time to it, but university always takes it all | 06:01 |
| gene | boids is a swarming algorithm | 06:01 |
| Ghost` | never done that i guess | 06:02 |
| Ghost` | but check grobots out, its pretty cool | 06:02 |
| Ghost` | kanzure! 3 clones!? | 06:02 |
| kanzure | The fourth one is in my garage on life support. | 06:02 |
| Ghost` | lol! | 06:03 |
| Ghost` | omg! 4am! O.o gotta wake up in a few hours to study :-/ end of semester nightmare.... | 06:03 |
| Ghost` | later folks | 06:03 |
| -!- Ghost` is now known as Ghost-Zzz | 06:03 | |
| gene | you could just gork all your clones | 06:05 |
| gene | I hear they store better that way | 06:05 |
| gene | http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/02/2313252 | 06:08 |
| kanzure_ | ""A colony of bacteria found 2.8 kilometers below the Earth's surface in a South African gold mine is able to sustain itself without energy from the Sun. While sub-surface colonies of microorganisms utilizing sulfur (mostly near deep sea hydrothermal vents) is not new, this particular colony is unusual. The colony does it by relying on radioactive uranium to split water into hydrogen gas. Thus, instead of solar energy and photosynthesis, this species | 13:53 |
| kanzure_ | http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/20/0625206 | 13:53 |
| kanzure_ | a thread on Orion's Arm is talking about strange places for organisms to live, and all I can come up with is Chernoybl and "within rocks". | 13:53 |
| kanzure_ | ah that's right, these are extremophiles | 13:54 |
| fenn | in the outer layers of a red giant star | 13:57 |
| fenn | or on the surface of a neutron star, if you've ever read Dragon's Egg | 13:58 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/gravitymine.htm The Gravity Mine by Stephen Baxter | 13:58 |
| kanzure_ | there was one by a game developer, something about life within stars, in a magnetohydrolayer | 13:59 |
| kanzure_ | although it wasn't "hydro" | 13:59 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/docs/The%20Masque%20of%20the%20Heat%20Death%20-%20David%20Krieger.html <- lepton life | 14:01 |
| kanzure_ | "leaping leptons!" as the boy genius would tend to exclaim. | 14:01 |
| kanzure_ | gaah, somebody stop me. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/12/hard-takeoff.html#comment-141211660 "When are you going to start the ai clock? We've been ticking for the past 50 years .." | 14:07 |
| fenn | i tend to agree, but using the word "never" is foolish of course | 14:10 |
| kanzure | so while you're around, I was wondering if you had any magical solution to gene's (random) design question. | 14:11 |
| * fenn reads the logs | 14:12 | |
| kanzure | he asked for graphsynth to design a turbine, and frankly it's not going to be doing that without a lot of upfront effort to make up some graph-representation of turbines | 14:12 |
| kanzure | but he just pulled the word 'turbine' out of his ass | 14:12 |
| kanzure | I've been avoiding the question of how to get a formal 'requirements' specification format. This might haunt me in the future. | 14:13 |
| kanzure | function structures are close, but at the moment they are just a graph of "import electrical energy => convert to rotational mechanical" and then a mechanical contraption is substituted via various substitution rules in the db | 14:14 |
| kanzure | doesn't quite help, with, say, an intuition that a rotational device has to have fins .. that would have to be in the db already. There's not some magical method I'm missing out on, is there? | 14:14 |
| fenn | a turbine would be one node in a graphsynth diagram, with arrows for "fluid flow" and "mechanical rotation" coming out (at best) | 14:17 |
| fenn | as far as i can see graphsynth doesnt do any designing at all, so the question is moot | 14:18 |
| fenn | are you sure GA isnt the entirety of search algorithms? :P | 14:19 |
| kanzure | it's more for circuitry | 14:19 |
| kanzure | but I can't really imagine a generalized system able to pull anything out of its ass just by a name 'turbine' | 14:19 |
| kanzure | if you say 'turbine' you are referencing something already designed | 14:19 |
| kanzure | :/ | 14:19 |
| fenn | not necessarily | 14:20 |
| fenn | just by the name, sure | 14:20 |
| fenn | but even that isn't enough | 14:20 |
| fenn | and seriously, what's the point? | 14:20 |
| kanzure | hm? | 14:20 |
| fenn | all these boxes and arrows | 14:20 |
| fenn | with no real information | 14:21 |
| kanzure | I can't exactly walk up to him and tell him it's meaningless | 14:21 |
| fenn | well that's your problem i guess, don't drag me into it | 14:21 |
| kanzure | I also don't have an available alternative | 14:21 |
| fenn | did i mention i hate earth yet today? | 14:21 |
| kanzure | No, you're scheduled for later tonight. | 14:22 |
| kanzure | although you haven't seen the gear and bar-link stuff in graphsynth | 14:23 |
| fenn | four bar linkages is approaching real information | 14:24 |
| kanzure | I'm not saying it's unique to graphsynth or arguing for it, just that it's there. | 14:24 |
| fenn | do they specify the length of the bars at least? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | maybe. But don't expect collision detection out of that, "oh look, a subgraph 80 nodes to the left " (ok, who makes an 80 link contraption anyway?) " might physically intersect with this part" <- not happening methinks. | 14:26 |
| kanzure | or if it does happen it will be a hack and not done the way that it should be done. | 14:26 |
| kanzure | i.e. proper collision detection or implicit degrees of freedom constraint checking would end up as further substitution rules :/ | 14:27 |
| kanzure_- | http://www.ebi.ac.uk/biomodels-main/static-pages.do?page=release_03December2008 12th release of the biomodel sbml database | 17:15 |
| kanzure_- | http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/CAD_and_CAM/Parts_Libraries/ | 18:21 |
| kanzure_- | http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/CAD_and_CAM/Computer_Aided_Manufacturing/ yeah so dmoz gets excessive sometimes | 18:25 |
| kanzure_- | http://varkon.sf.net/ more cad for linux.. | 18:28 |
| kanzure_- | haven't seen that one around. | 18:28 |
| kanzure_- | "In this generic, default Varkon user environment, it is possible, for example, to draw a line. Let's say, though, that you are involved in diagramming the plumbing system of a building. In this case, you may need not lines, but pipes. Through the MBS programming language, Varkon allows you to define parts such as pipes, and to specify them parametrically. You can therefore design a general... | 18:29 |
| kanzure_- | ..."pipe" (think "class" if you're used to object-oriented programming (OOP)) which can become a specific pipe (think "instance" in OOP terms) when specified with its required parameters." | 18:29 |
| kanzure_- | "Varkon goes beyond this, however, because it allows you to add this concept of a pipe to the user interface itself. You can create a menu, or modify an existing menu, to allow "pipe" to become a menu item alongside other Varkon and user-defined functions. " | 18:29 |
| kanzure_- | "To the designer of a project, Varkon is preeminantly a programmer's modeling system. Varkon menu systems are sets of files in a simple format whose items resolve, ultimately, to Varkon functions (built-in or user-defined). The elements of a Varkon drawing or model are not defined as, say, entries in a database. Rather, they are modules of code written in the MBS programming language.... | 18:29 |
| kanzure_- | ...Programming a Varkon project is more than scripting macros to simplify user's tasks; programming a Varkon project means creating a unique system built out of the tools Varkon provides. " | 18:29 |
| kanzure_- | MBS program structure: http://www.marcdatabase.com/~lemur/vk-structure.html | 18:30 |
| kanzure_- | Uh, I'm not too sure what's going on here. | 18:31 |
| kanzure_- | http://www.varkon.org/ | 18:34 |
| kanzure_- | http://www.varkon.org/Stone_Soup.html <- I don't get it. | 18:39 |
| kanzure_- | http://rfqboard.com/ - 'RFQ Board is a non-profit, web-based service designed to facilitate an organized quoting process for manufacturing type jobs.' | 18:45 |
| kanzure_- | found from: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.cad.solidworks/browse_thread/thread/7030f60faf703b9d/676b6c003ad8c475?lnk=gst&q=.SLDPRT#676b6c003ad8c475 | 18:45 |
| kanzure_- | "We just had a demo from a Rand rep where I work, and he was really | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | pushing this new product for Pro-E. It was a conduit between VBA and | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | Pro-E (can't remember the name) that would allow you to program stuff in | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | VBA (through excel, word, VB, or whatever) and have it control Pro-E. I | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | think it cost like $5K or $10K (memory doesn't serve, the demo was a | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | week ago actually). " | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | http://groups.google.com/group/comp.cad.solidworks/browse_thread/thread/c7cc4615cbd2301b/0a6f611ecc965661?lnk=gst&q=%22automated+design%22#0a6f611ecc965661 | 18:48 |
| kanzure_- | hah. | 18:49 |
| kanzure_- | http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/APIDownloads.html | 18:51 |
| wrldpc | memetics is bullshit: http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/339/33905206.pdf | 19:25 |
| kanzure_- | I thought everyone knows that :) | 19:59 |
| kanzure_- | "Design is the initiation of change to a man-made artifact." from random flippings through books laying around the lab | 21:04 |
| kanzure_- | http://open-government.us/ | 21:11 |
| * kanzure_- hears angels singing | 21:54 | |
| kanzure_- | now if only I can get the conceptual design studies to start focusing on the voiced toolchain itself | 21:54 |
| kanzure_- | heh | 21:54 |
| xp_prg | kanzure did you see my email to diybio | 22:26 |
| xp_prg | ? | 22:26 |
| xp_prg | I sent it and it doesn't appear to be posting | 22:26 |
| kanzure | Yes, I did see it. | 22:59 |
| kanzure | connection issues? | 23:51 |
| fenn | i was looking for an ethernet cable and unplugged the wrong one. then plugged server back into a dead port :)... | 23:51 |
| * fenn makes label for dead port | 23:52 | |
| xp_prg | kanzure I am meeting with a ceo of a biotech firm and a biostatastician | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | tonight | 23:54 |
| kanzure | What for? | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | discuss my ideas | 23:54 |
| kanzure | but you hardly know them | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | and biobench | 23:54 |
| kanzure | I've had to supply you with half the ideas :/ | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | he is from a cse background | 23:54 |
| kanzure | well, good luck | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | kanzure you did help me understand many things for sure, but you never listend to my original ideas :) | 23:54 |
| kanzure | feel free to tell them my number | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | I will give you credit of course | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | ok | 23:55 |
| xp_prg | what is it? | 23:55 |
| kanzure | well, your ideas suck frankly, nobody writes a compiler in flash | 23:55 |
| kanzure | sorry :( | 23:55 |
| kanzure | xp_prg: it's on the site, 1 512 203 0507 | 23:55 |
| xp_prg | the frontend they do, the back end | 23:55 |
| kanzure | no they don't.. | 23:55 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gcc | 23:55 |
| xp_prg | kanzure you don't understand cse man | 23:55 |
| xp_prg | your a biologist | 23:55 |
| kanzure | uh, no, I'm comp sci | 23:56 |
| kanzure | nice try though | 23:56 |
| xp_prg | you are?! | 23:56 |
| kanzure | yes. | 23:56 |
| xp_prg | now I am totally dumbstruck | 23:56 |
| kanzure | I mean, I'm technically enrolled in manufacturing engineering and computational neuroscience | 23:56 |
| xp_prg | do you major in biology as well? | 23:56 |
| kanzure | but my background is computer science | 23:56 |
| kanzure | No, I'm not anything to do with biology coursework | 23:56 |
| xp_prg | wow cool | 23:56 |
| kanzure | although I am taking a brain course. | 23:56 |
| bkero | brian course | 23:57 |
| kanzure | is there a difference? | 23:57 |
| * bkero shrugs | 23:57 | |
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