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| kanzure_ | https://gallery.debconf.org/v/debconf8/ | 08:37 |
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| kanzure_ | http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:268 ""This is also the first item in a concept oomlout.com is working on dubbed "open manufacturing". (more to follow) | 12:02 |
| kanzure_ | http://oomlout.com/ | 12:02 |
| kanzure_ | http://oomlout.com/cnc1.html desktop cnc router | 12:03 |
| kanzure_ | somebody stalk down Stuart McFarlan for me. | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | fenn_: globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, | 12:42 |
| kanzure_ | factorefarm@googlegroups.com, | 12:42 |
| kanzure_ | solar-turbine@googlegroups.com, | 12:42 |
| kanzure_ | erm, I meant to mention to fenn_ that openfarmtech is looking for some more people to live with them (I think) | 12:42 |
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| kanzure_ | http://3dcontentcentral.com/3DContentCentral/ | 13:39 |
| parodyoflanguage | Oh no, they said "take the red pill" :) | 13:42 |
| parodyoflanguage | I don't think that was the right place to refer to The Matrix movies. | 13:43 |
| parodyoflanguage | But the openfarmtech stuff is fascinating. | 13:45 |
| fenn_ | rawr | 14:09 |
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| fenn | oh internet, I have neglected you. i am sorry. | 14:10 |
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| fenn | parodyoflanguage> Do any of you know of any existing open source software for physics simulations that *isn't* developed for gaming? | 14:16 |
| fenn | brl-cad | 14:16 |
| fenn | but it's mostly about x-ray penetration or whatever | 14:16 |
| fenn | not bouncing blobs or CFD | 14:17 |
| fenn | oh i guess i should continue reading the rest of the backlog | 14:17 |
| kanzure_ | the internets be a harsh mistress | 14:21 |
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| fenn | "individuals who own industrial engineering firms and post over 10,000 times on a forum" are you talking about mariss freimanis? :) | 14:26 |
| bkero | fenn: Wasnt brlcad developed for ballistics physics? | 14:29 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: talking about Sean Dalton and RND Automation/Engineering. | 14:31 |
| kanzure_ | Dotson. | 14:32 |
| kanzure_ | sorry | 14:32 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: There's a lot out there, but many of them seem to be defunct research projects. | 14:32 |
| parodyoflanguage | In order to understand more about fea I've been teaching myself about tensors. | 14:33 |
| kanzure_ | meh | 14:33 |
| fenn | parallel parking system is pretty lame.. dymaxion car solved that problem much more elegantly | 14:48 |
| kanzure_ | bucky's dead. | 14:51 |
| fenn | so are lots of people | 14:53 |
| fenn | in my 3-wheeler i'm not going to try to rotate the back wheel, rather it will just have a little caster that can flip down and then you tank-steer with the front wheels | 14:54 |
| fenn | ah <3 google: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/703709.html | 14:56 |
| fenn | "Subject: More dead people or alive people?" | 14:56 |
| bkero | kanzure_: live with them? | 14:58 |
| fenn | openfarmtech needs manual labor and smarts condensed into a tiny space with zero funding | 14:59 |
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| fenn | something is wrong with the business model | 15:00 |
| fenn | but hey, what else am i doing | 15:01 |
| fenn | it might seem more appealing if it were in a warm climate | 15:01 |
| gene | business model? | 15:01 |
| fenn | yes, the "OSE business plan for world domination" or whatever | 15:02 |
| * fenn goes to transfer some mass and volume to its new location | 15:03 | |
| fenn | the mass and the volume are separate, in this case | 15:03 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, that's the thing. | 15:03 |
| gene | mass and volume seperate??? | 15:06 |
| parodyoflanguage | It seems to me if compressed-earth houses were all that great, we'd all be using them. It probably was state of the art technology all those years ago, but what we have now is probably a couple orders of magnitude better. | 15:06 |
| gene | oh yeah rammed earth housing | 15:07 |
| gene | is it cheaper than wood? | 15:07 |
| parodyoflanguage | See here for example: http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/?p=451 | 15:07 |
| kanzure_ | parodyoflanguage: It's not about what's better. | 15:08 |
| parodyoflanguage | gene: Well, they're aiming, I think, for less dependency, which creates a centralized economy. | 15:08 |
| kanzure_ | it's about what you can actually make | 15:08 |
| gene | is it stronger than wood? | 15:08 |
| fenn | it doesnt require cutting down trees and shipping them all over the world | 15:08 |
| parodyoflanguage | kanzure: It is because they are expecting people to live in these houses, and for these kinds of houses to take over from what we have now. | 15:08 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: Yeah. | 15:09 |
| fenn | it's about autonomy and logistics, not strength/weight ratio or whatever | 15:09 |
| kanzure_ | No, they're not expecting them to just blindly take over, parodyoflanguage. | 15:09 |
| gene | is it cost competitive with wood? | 15:09 |
| kanzure_ | gene: they don't really involve much money in what they are doing | 15:09 |
| fenn | gene: stop trolling | 15:09 |
| fenn | steel bars and styrofoam | 15:10 |
| parodyoflanguage | If you constantly have to repair the walls then it makes you wonder if the effort is worth it. | 15:10 |
| fenn | parodyoflanguage: you should check out some of his links on rammed earth architecture | 15:11 |
| fenn | some of the buildings are 100+ years old and look just like baked brick | 15:11 |
| gene | cool | 15:11 |
| parodyoflanguage | Who is "he"? | 15:11 |
| fenn | marcin | 15:11 |
| gene | so what are the disadvanteges | 15:11 |
| fenn | you have to make the bricks | 15:12 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: I'll check it out. If they can make enduring materials from compressed earth, all the power to all of us. | 15:12 |
| gene | that's it? | 15:12 |
| fenn | uh, and they're heavy | 15:12 |
| fenn | i dont know about r-value or whether that matters | 15:13 |
| gene | that can a be a good thing | 15:13 |
| fenn | not in my mind it isnt | 15:13 |
| gene | especially if you live in tornado alley | 15:13 |
| gene | no termite problem that is an advantage | 15:13 |
| parodyoflanguage | Okay, here's my question. Take a compressed earth brick, doesn't it lose it's compression over time? | 15:13 |
| parodyoflanguage | Why doesn't it fall apart over time? | 15:14 |
| fenn | why would it fall apart? | 15:14 |
| fenn | it's basically artificial sandstone | 15:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_industrial_manufacturing_automation_engineering_design_firms#RND_Automation_.26_Engineering | 15:14 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: Because there's nothing holding it together. | 15:14 |
| fenn | parodyoflanguage: what's holding wood together? | 15:14 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: Fiber. | 15:14 |
| fenn | or regular bricks | 15:14 |
| fenn | or stones | 15:14 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: van der walls forces :) These solids have a crystaline structure that binds it together. | 15:15 |
| parodyoflanguage | or so I think :) | 15:15 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, bricks don't have a crystal structure, I don't think. | 15:16 |
| parodyoflanguage | But, no, I don't know what binds cement together or clay. | 15:16 |
| fenn | they are sintered, so it's a ceramic which is sorta halfway between glass and crystal | 15:17 |
| parodyoflanguage | Even clay, which is found in soil, needs to be heated. | 15:17 |
| fenn | "needs" why? | 15:17 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: Look, I'm studying my chemistry, I don't have all the answers :) | 15:17 |
| fenn | a lot of people hear "compressed earth" and think "mud hut" | 15:18 |
| parodyoflanguage | fenn: Well, how long to the CE bricks last? | 15:18 |
| parodyoflanguage | *to --> do | 15:18 |
| fenn | hundreds of years apparently | 15:19 |
| parodyoflanguage | Eh, I have to go. Nice talking. I'll keep open minded about this project which I think is fascinating, but I have to have *some* skepticism. | 15:20 |
| gene | so is compressed earth sort like a dorodango? | 15:20 |
| parodyoflanguage | I'll have to see if there's an FAQ on the openfarmtech website. | 15:20 |
| fenn | i need a mind->google interface, with "image as query" mode | 15:21 |
| kanzure_ | the keyboard. | 15:22 |
| fenn | i have this picture of a building in my head which i can't find | 15:22 |
| fenn | i saw it once, on the internet | 15:22 |
| fenn | make sense now? | 15:23 |
| gene | man I wish I had one of those too | 15:23 |
| fenn | gene: it's not a dorodango, whatever that is | 15:23 |
| gene | dorodango is a shiny ball of soil | 15:24 |
| gene | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorodango | 15:24 |
| kanzure_ | why not just go read their compressed earth bric page? | 15:24 |
| kanzure_ | *brick | 15:24 |
| fenn | some silly thing you read in a william gibson novel? | 15:24 |
| gene | no | 15:24 |
| gene | I saw it on the internets | 15:24 |
| gene | http://sleepygi.setupmyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/gardner%20dorodango.jpg | 15:25 |
| gene | this is a good example of one | 15:25 |
| gene | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammed_earth | 15:26 |
| gene | quite cool | 15:26 |
| fenn | rammed earth is not the same process | 15:26 |
| gene | oh shoot | 15:26 |
| gene | how are they different? | 15:29 |
| fenn | in one you're bulldozing together huge walls of earth | 15:29 |
| gene | oh | 15:30 |
| fenn | and the other you're making finely tuned mixtures of different minerals and compressing them into blocks | 15:30 |
| kanzure_ | http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/?cat=13 | 15:30 |
| fenn | i wonder how they are going to move those huge pallets of bricks around | 15:31 |
| gene | tractors | 15:32 |
| gene | on a farm you have to have a tractor | 15:33 |
| fenn | tractor on muddy soil moving a cubic meter of compressed earth? | 15:33 |
| gene | tractors might be able to do it | 15:34 |
| gene | so is it easier than other building methods, if so I might have a use for it | 15:34 |
| fenn | looks like they stack the bricks by hand.. i thought the whole idea was to have this machine pooping out bricks right on the wall | 15:36 |
| gene | could I build a barn out of these bricks? | 15:36 |
| kanzure_ | it shouldn't be too hard to have some adjustable bars/guides to slide bricks down or something into place | 15:37 |
| kanzure_ | maybe a little escalator method even.. | 15:37 |
| gene | oh as in automatic construction of buildings | 15:38 |
| kanzure_ | is there a way to do external image hotlinking in mediawiki? | 15:38 |
| kanzure_ | $wgAllowExternalImages | 15:39 |
| kanzure_ | bwahahah | 15:39 |
| kanzure_ | I win the internets | 15:39 |
| gene | and I just lost the game' | 15:40 |
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| gene | so I would like to build a building out of this stuff, where do I start? | 15:44 |
| fenn | acquire or build a ram | 15:45 |
| fenn | search the intarwebs for how to do that, or help with SKDB and all the crap we've been talking about for momnths | 15:46 |
| gene | would a bulldozer work? | 15:46 |
| fenn | no | 15:49 |
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| gene | ok then | 15:52 |
| fenn | too bad this didnt take off http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/openbrick.jpg | 15:57 |
| gene | I can't built a house out of that, that's too expensive | 15:58 |
| fenn | party pooper | 16:01 |
| gene | though if I did, it would be awesome | 16:01 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_industrial_manufacturing_automation_engineering_design_firms | 16:07 |
| kanzure_ | I need to stop :/ | 16:07 |
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| kanzure_ | hi sam | 16:12 |
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| kanzure_ | fenn: being reasonable, do we honestly think that anybody is going to learn python just to type up instructions? | 17:32 |
| kanzure_ | or put instructions in a format where they look for things already in the database | 17:32 |
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| fenn | kanzure_: no, that's why the yaml format | 19:28 |
| fenn | i can't parse " put instructions in a format where they look for things already in the database" | 19:28 |
| fenn | there will probably be "wizards" or whatever, programs that hold your hand and walk you thru the package creation process | 19:29 |
| fenn | that's the thing that annoys me about ruby on rails | 19:30 |
| fenn | it takes ten seconds of typing to set up some super duper thingy, but you have to read 50 webpages to figure out what to type | 19:30 |
| kanzure_ | the instruction format. I was thinking it would just be "screw.Instructions" (or whatever), then set an environmental variable for english mode or not or whatever | 19:32 |
| kanzure_ | and then the recipes would be a collection of each of those individual steps | 19:32 |
| kanzure_ | but the problem with this is that so far I'm pretty sure that this can't be done for proper linking of the individual steps to one another (per the emails that were going around on debian-devel, debtags etc.) | 19:32 |
| kanzure_ | so this might as well end up as hand-written instructions.. | 19:32 |
| kanzure_ | (but dependencies are still a requirement) | 19:33 |
| kanzure_ | beep poke bop | 19:48 |
| fenn | i dont get it | 19:54 |
| fenn | what's the problem? | 19:54 |
| fenn | for i in `get dependencies`; do cat i.instructions >> recipe; done | 19:55 |
| kanzure_ | I was trying to do automatic recipe substitutions | 19:55 |
| kanzure_ | uhh | 19:55 |
| fenn | or whatever flavor you prefer | 19:55 |
| kanzure_ | runtime dependencies v. build dependencies. | 19:55 |
| fenn | runtime instructions is a whole nother ball of wax | 19:56 |
| kanzure_ | "20 cc/sec water" v. "needs plastic injection molding machine" | 19:56 |
| kanzure_ | right but that's how it works for instructions .. those instructions are just glorified CAM | 19:56 |
| fenn | a hammer can be used for many things | 19:56 |
| kanzure_ | so what. | 19:58 |
| kanzure_ | anyway, you're alright with plaintext build instructions or not? | 19:58 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00070.html | 19:59 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00094.html | 19:59 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/shell.html | 19:59 |
| kanzure_ | what I'm trying to say is that that same stuff for interconnecting programs automatically (parameter representation, applicable formats) is what's needed to do all that with recipes.. | 20:00 |
| kanzure_ | what I'm thinking of doing instead, for build instructions, is to let the user do documentation (by hand) for instructions, but also have individual instructions for each dependency (what the other maintainers typed in (but those packages have dependencies with instructions too)) | 20:05 |
| kanzure_ | and not any sort of magical interoperability that I've been wishing for .. | 20:05 |
| gene | can I get some compressed earth brick links fenn? | 20:35 |
| gene | it looks like this is cost competitive with wood | 20:38 |
| gene | or would be without timber subsidies | 20:59 |
| fenn | wtf am i some sort of compressed earth block expert now? | 21:10 |
| fenn | plaintext build instruction = instructables | 21:11 |
| fenn | hell, even they have some pictures and metadata | 21:12 |
| fenn | like the little squares in the picture that hilight when you mouse over them | 21:12 |
| fenn | i think text is a terrible medium for explaining how to build something | 21:12 |
| fenn | insert eric hunting rant re: legos and gundam figurine assembly instructions | 21:13 |
| fenn | the dave gingery books were mostly diagrams, with lots of repetitive "now do the same for this, now do the same for that" | 21:14 |
| fenn | text is fine for describing a general process, but not specific instances | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | but you've just avoided the issue that I've been describing though | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | basically what you're saying is that there *does* have to be some discrete method so that you can string instructions together | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | meanwhile I'm pointing out that the interconnection of these instructions with different information passing between them is not something that we've so far been able to tackle | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | "parameter passing markup language" | 21:18 |
| fenn | can i have an example please | 21:18 |
| * fenn hates when people start talking about "information" | 21:18 | |
| kanzure_ | uh, what's the point of doing something in order if there's nothing that the previous steps were doing on the information/materials | 21:19 |
| kanzure_ | something in order == steps in an instruction set | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | and I doubt that a single variable that you pass between the steps is good enough. | 21:20 |
| fenn | well, the steps each have dependencies i guess | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | pick it up -> give it to something else | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | there is information between those two steps that have to be conveyed | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | that's why I've been on about the "Semantic Shell" (say it sarcastically) and i.e., figuring out how to pass certain variables to different steps | 21:21 |
| fenn | nothing sarcastic about it | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | except that it's not really working out so far | 21:21 |
| fenn | if the semantic web people didnt have their heads so far up their asses and actually would have accomplished something by now, you could say it enthusiastically | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | did you read Erich's emails? | 21:21 |
| fenn | erich = eric hunting? or some other eric? (in which case, no) | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | the debian guys just took the easy way out and went with 'debtags' | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | erich, from the lists.debian.org links above | 21:22 |
| fenn | debtags is useless | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | yep | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | it has this works-with-format tag | 21:22 |
| fenn | does anything use it at all? | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | erich was trying to do what the "semantic shell" was supposed to do | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | but he ended up wimping out and going with debtags | 21:22 |
| fenn | should have stuck with his original RDF-ish idea | 21:22 |
| fenn | i dont think each program would end up with its own verb | 21:23 |
| kanzure_ | how's that? read, write, displays, .. | 21:23 |
| fenn | 'google' is just slang for "search using google" | 21:23 |
| fenn | i dont know enough about rdf | 21:24 |
| kanzure_ | me either | 21:24 |
| * fenn scrolls down to page 5 in the todo list | 21:24 | |
| kanzure_ | short todo list. | 21:24 |
| fenn | meta meta todo: come up with new categories for sorting todo lists | 21:24 |
| fenn | all the stuff that really needs to get done isn't on the todo list anyway | 21:25 |
| kanzure_ | I also contacted Colin (man maintainer) | 21:26 |
| fenn | why? | 21:26 |
| kanzure_ | maybe he had heard of something related to more formal markup on documentation ("how to use this package") | 21:26 |
| kanzure_ | and the answer was no. | 21:26 |
| fenn | oh | 21:26 |
| fenn | man pages are pretty standardized as far as documentation goes | 21:26 |
| kanzure_ | yes, but not if you want your program to "auto find me something that takes in PDF and throw in the right parameters for me" | 21:27 |
| fenn | considering the humongously disparate development effort | 21:27 |
| kanzure_ | ("and then display me the text options via the ncurses aptitude interface thingy, so that I can select what I want") | 21:27 |
| fenn | yeah this really ought to exist | 21:27 |
| fenn | even if it's a failure to take off | 21:28 |
| fenn | (network effects are a bitch to get started) | 21:28 |
| kanzure_ | screw the network effect, just tell me how to make it work :( | 21:28 |
| fenn | 1) get 1000 monkeys and 1000 terminals | 21:28 |
| fenn | 2) teach them RDF | 21:29 |
| fenn | 3) start documenting debian packages in order of popularity (see popularity contest package) | 21:29 |
| kanzure_ | RDF == handwaving | 21:29 |
| kanzure_ | AFAIK. | 21:29 |
| fenn | subject verb object | 21:30 |
| fenn | basically | 21:30 |
| kanzure_ | I just don't think that's useful. | 21:30 |
| kanzure_ | package program object? | 21:30 |
| kanzure_ | hrm. | 21:30 |
| fenn | uh, in all the examples object was a mime type | 21:30 |
| kanzure_ | but you've ignored everything about parameter syntax | 21:31 |
| fenn | but whatever, i'm not convinced anyone really knows rdf | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | heh, it's a scam! | 21:31 |
| fenn | right, so it'd be some awful construction like program-with-syntax-&29994436 | 21:31 |
| fenn | as the subject | 21:31 |
| fenn | and then another one program-with-syntax-&29994436 has-gnu-getopt-flag --blarf | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | eww, common local db of known instruction formats, standardized across a list of known possibles priorly encountered | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | I've kind of thought that one way to do this right is to look at when you write quick scripts | 21:32 |
| fenn | please rephrase 'standardized...' | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | you always do some quick --help option or something | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | but then you just resort to a print statement with english-help stuff. | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | I wonder if it would be useful to incorporate into the autoproject tools (generates source files and make files, skeleton program structure) | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | the 'proper' formatted help interface documentation | 21:33 |
| fenn | i think you've run into the symbol grounding problem again | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | i.e. this could be done as an api or library to apply from step one to a program | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | and so the options to pass to a program would be handled by this library or api. | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | possibly allowing object data to be pushed through? etc.? | 21:34 |
| fenn | automake does something similar, but it's basically a programming language | 21:34 |
| kanzure_ | huh? what in particular | 21:34 |
| fenn | and requires constant care and feeding | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | you mean that it generates the make files? | 21:35 |
| fenn | well, automake is really just a shell around make | 21:35 |
| fenn | and it figures out the easy stuff, like where the libraries are | 21:35 |
| fenn | or maybe i'm thinking autoconf | 21:35 |
| fenn | Automake generates a makefile that allows the user to: | 21:36 |
| fenn | compile the program; | 21:36 |
| fenn | clean (i.e., remove the files resulting from the compilation); | 21:36 |
| fenn | install the program in standard directories; | 21:36 |
| fenn | uninstall the program from where it was installed; | 21:36 |
| fenn | create a source distribution archive (commonly called a tarball); | 21:36 |
| fenn | test that this archive is self-sufficient | 21:36 |
| fenn | i think the graphical apt-get frontends use debtags to sort packages into categories | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | oh, another thought i scribbled down was "input output template files" ("IOTs") which would tell you all input formats that the program accepts, as sort of a bulk thing you scan through | 21:38 |
| fenn | synaptic or aptitude, forget which | 21:38 |
| fenn | oh like DTD? :) | 21:39 |
| kanzure_ | I'm pretty sure DTD isn't the same thing .. I've read through DTD files so many times. not sure how that applies here. | 21:39 |
| kanzure_ | it just defines valid attributes, not their order or mime-typeage | 21:40 |
| kanzure_ | or does it? | 21:40 |
| fenn | the idea is that it defines a valid input file | 21:40 |
| fenn | the set of all valid input files, usually | 21:40 |
| fenn | only works with XML data tho | 21:40 |
| fenn | i wonder if there are computer readable descriptions of mime type datas anywhere | 21:41 |
| fenn | or just the raw code to parse and do stuff with it | 21:41 |
| fenn | (is there a difference?) | 21:42 |
| fenn | O aristotle help me! | 21:42 |
| fenn | what is the metaphysical nature of understanding... | 21:42 |
| gene | fuck aristotle | 21:43 |
| kanzure_ | give me something good to pick up on demonoid. I am bored and without amphetamine in my blood. | 21:44 |
| gene | 1800 mechanical movements | 21:44 |
| kanzure_ | an anime | 21:44 |
| gene | the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya | 21:44 |
| gene | pani poni dash, but only if you are an otaku | 21:45 |
| kanzure_ | if it's bad, do I get to kill you and take your immortality points? | 21:45 |
| kanzure_ | that's how this works, right? | 21:45 |
| gene | then watch the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya | 21:45 |
| kanzure_ | do you recommend the subs or the dubs? | 21:46 |
| gene | subs man | 21:46 |
| gene | wait you're gonna kill me if it's bad? | 21:49 |
| gene | you're downloading it? | 21:50 |
| kanzure_ | heh | 21:51 |
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| kanzure_ | Hi `tty`. | 21:53 |
| `tty` | hey Bryan | 21:53 |
| gene | I need not worry, Melancholy is a good anime :) | 21:53 |
| fenn | haruhi dubs weren't bad, seems like there would be too much information going through the bottom of the screen to keep up | 21:54 |
| gene | dubs tell you so much more | 21:54 |
| gene | like explaining japanese puns | 21:54 |
| * kanzure_ downloads herbie rides again | 21:55 | |
| kanzure_ | http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22herbie+rides+again%22++trailer&www_google_domain=www.google.com&hl=en&emb=0# | 21:55 |
| gene | why? | 21:56 |
| * `tty` watching herbie does frisco | 21:56 | |
| gene | I would like to see cory doctrow write his interpretation of Herbie | 21:57 |
| `tty` | hey, why don't we have a fun hardware project on OM, to get things going | 21:58 |
| `tty` | like build your own _____ | 21:58 |
| kanzure_ | we already do kinda | 21:58 |
| `tty` | what is it? | 21:58 |
| kanzure_ | the idea is to package previously built open source hardware projects | 21:58 |
| gene | _________= micro ECM mill? | 21:58 |
| kanzure_ | http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking for a list of open source hardware projects. | 21:58 |
| gene | made from CD drive? | 21:58 |
| `tty` | yeah but what can you pitch the group that's inspiring and FUN.. something specific | 21:59 |
| gene | c'mon let's build and ECM micro mill! | 21:59 |
| `tty` | what is it? | 21:59 |
| `tty` | desktop CNC? | 21:59 |
| gene | yes | 21:59 |
| kanzure_ | I think packaging something already made is inspiring and fun | 22:00 |
| gene | more like cluttered desk CNC | 22:00 |
| `tty` | that would be cool... very functional too | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | like mechmate, reprap, the CNC routers, .. | 22:00 |
| `tty` | kanzure: be more specific please | 22:00 |
| `tty` | what hardware project? | 22:00 |
| gene | a really small CNC machine capable of cutting titanium | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | what do I need to be more specific about | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | `tty`: pick one: http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking | 22:00 |
| gene | and other hard metals | 22:00 |
| `tty` | sheesh | 22:00 |
| `tty` | k, let me see | 22:00 |
| fenn | i understand the problem | 22:02 |
| fenn | engineers are motivated by having something on their bench that "does something" | 22:02 |
| gene | So the hurdle I'm facing to making a small CNC mill is getting tiny accurate linear actuators | 22:03 |
| fenn | if you just have a bunch of software that isn't finished/in a useful state, nobody cares and the engineers drift out of the group | 22:03 |
| gene | fenn you are correct | 22:03 |
| fenn | and we end up with lots of philosophers and political rants | 22:03 |
| kanzure_ | lots of bullshit rants too | 22:03 |
| kanzure_ | but starting from scratch, when other open source projects do the same thing | 22:03 |
| kanzure_ | that's kind of questionable gene :) | 22:03 |
| fenn | the problem is that "does something" is not terribly useful in the long term | 22:03 |
| fenn | but half-finished software is | 22:04 |
| fenn | (when it gets finished) | 22:04 |
| `tty` | http://opensourcemachine.org/mm2html2/How_to_build_a_multimachine.html | 22:04 |
| fenn | oh ffs i hate that thing | 22:04 |
| `tty` | looking for something 'smaller' | 22:04 |
| gene | so I'm thinking of using CD drives, but having to rely on one brand of CD drive might limit repeatability | 22:04 |
| fenn | please don't bring it up | 22:04 |
| `tty` | lol | 22:05 |
| fenn | `tty`: you could re-package the gingery mill and modernize the processes | 22:05 |
| kanzure_ | yay | 22:05 |
| fenn | for example by using lost foam casting instead of green sand | 22:05 |
| kanzure_ | if you need the gingery books, I have a zip | 22:05 |
| gene | then buy a $1200 korean micromill | 22:05 |
| fenn | i was going to do this but lost interest a few years ago | 22:05 |
| fenn | much info on my wiki to get you started: http://fennetic.net/machines/ | 22:05 |
| fenn | in particular http://fennetic.net/machines/21st_century | 22:06 |
| `tty` | http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/ItemsMade | 22:07 |
| fenn | and http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?import_tools | 22:07 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/gingery/gingery_books/ | 22:07 |
| `tty` | the RepRap thing... looks modern, compact, flimsy | 22:07 |
| gene | but it works(barely) | 22:07 |
| gene | http://www.robofun.net/forum/redirect.php?fid=63&tid=1584&goto=nextnewset | 22:08 |
| gene | check this out | 22:08 |
| gene | doesn't work but it's cool | 22:08 |
| `tty` | k, so I first had interest in this rapid prototyping stuff back in 89/90 ... MIT was leading in that area at that time... I was most interested not in the UV laser curing models but in the ceramic powder+glue spray model | 22:08 |
| fenn | reprap is not a bad design, but it's no milling machine | 22:08 |
| gene | Z-corp? | 22:09 |
| gene | zcorp uses plaster and food-dyed water | 22:09 |
| `tty` | I don't remember.. maybe z-corp is an MIt spinoff.. I saw the model at work in the labd | 22:09 |
| gene | you can make your own Z-corp: | 22:09 |
| `tty` | but I'm wondering how the tech has evolved since | 22:09 |
| `tty` | what does RepRap use? | 22:10 |
| `tty` | curable polymer? | 22:10 |
| `tty` | UV curable? | 22:10 |
| fenn | no | 22:10 |
| gene | reprap uses thermoplastic | 22:10 |
| fenn | it squirts molten plastic out of a small hole | 22:10 |
| `tty` | nice, so it's IR then | 22:10 |
| `tty` | oh | 22:10 |
| gene | no | 22:10 |
| `tty` | k | 22:10 |
| fenn | resistive heater (nichrome wire) | 22:10 |
| gene | it's direct heat transfer | 22:10 |
| `tty` | melts the plastic and uses something like a 3D inkjet | 22:11 |
| fenn | no, more like cake frosting | 22:11 |
| gene | think plotter | 22:11 |
| gene | more like a a 3d pen plotter | 22:11 |
| `tty` | right... | 22:11 |
| fenn | there's some interesting stuff happening with laser sintering, but it's all hush-hush pre-patent stuff | 22:12 |
| `tty` | can I make cinder-block-sized lego pieces with it? and how fast? | 22:12 |
| gene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Y8WnSKvC8 | 22:12 |
| fenn | (not associated with reprap or anything) | 22:12 |
| fenn | `tty`: it's not for large things, they would take too long | 22:12 |
| fenn | if you really wanted to make cinder block sized legos, you could use a vacuum former | 22:13 |
| gene | who cares if it takes too long if it's automated | 22:13 |
| fenn | well, they would cost like $50 in raw materials too | 22:13 |
| gene | then you have have big lego pieces with almost no load bearing ability | 22:14 |
| `tty` | well, i really want to... I want to build a tree house using lego designs | 22:14 |
| `tty` | including flat pieces, for floor and ceiling | 22:14 |
| gene | fenn the 3d printers at my uni run overnight | 22:14 |
| fenn | khosnevis is working on extruded ceramic and concrete that you could use for big stuff | 22:14 |
| `tty` | the video you pasted is very impressive | 22:15 |
| gene | sound like you might want to do some sort of casting | 22:15 |
| `tty` | well, i want to make the molds | 22:15 |
| fenn | uh, i dunno.. ABS plastic is expensive in quantity | 22:15 |
| `tty` | using so called "rapid" prototyping | 22:15 |
| fenn | most consumer crap made from it is highly optimized to reduce the amount of plastic | 22:15 |
| kanzure_ | so let me get this straight | 22:15 |
| gene | http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/ | 22:15 |
| kanzure_ | you started off suggesting OM gets around to doing a community project | 22:15 |
| gene | more info | 22:15 |
| kanzure_ | but in reality you have alterior motives | 22:15 |
| `tty` | yes | 22:15 |
| kanzure_ | okay | 22:15 |
| `tty` | both | 22:15 |
| kanzure_ | just making sure. | 22:15 |
| gene | don't we all | 22:15 |
| kanzure_ | no | 22:16 |
| kanzure_ | we don't. | 22:16 |
| `tty` | i have alterior motives coming out of my pores | 22:16 |
| `tty` | whatever... | 22:16 |
| `tty` | just thinking of what would appeal to everyone | 22:16 |
| gene | kanzure I want my own autofac for making robots, that's why I joined OM | 22:16 |
| kanzure_ | go back to your brainstorming | 22:16 |
| gene | Right away Captain Kanzure! | 22:16 |
| `tty` | and the guys here seem to be in sync on some kind of fabrication tech | 22:16 |
| `tty` | as opposed to a robot or some such thing | 22:17 |
| kanzure_ | sure | 22:17 |
| gene | ok so tty do you know how to program microcontrollers? | 22:17 |
| `tty` | i think it will be symolic of OM ... a robot wouldn't | 22:17 |
| `tty` | I know how to program anything as long as you have the manual | 22:18 |
| `tty` | :) | 22:18 |
| fenn | gene: that youtube video, is it plaster and water? | 22:18 |
| gene | some very weird plaster mixture | 22:18 |
| gene | with possibly guarana in it | 22:18 |
| `tty` | PICs are the thing now... I worked with Z80 back in the day, and MC68032 I think | 22:18 |
| `tty` | then the Basic Stamp, which was ridiculous | 22:19 |
| `tty` | and looking at more open source PIC stuff now | 22:19 |
| fenn | guarana hehe | 22:19 |
| gene | here is a description of what the powder is made of. | 22:19 |
| gene | It's just dental plaster ( Durone 4 Brand) + 30% of weight | 22:19 |
| gene | maltodextrin( midway brand, guarana with acai flavor). | 22:19 |
| fenn | `tty`: PIC is out of style, read up on AVR microcontrollers | 22:19 |
| gene | I did try some other flavors but it doesn't work well as this one. | 22:19 |
| gene | I don't know why, maybe the guarana or acai helps on bonding. | 22:19 |
| gene | I did try just maltodextrose but it won't work as good as the one | 22:19 |
| gene | mentioned. | 22:19 |
| gene | I'm using just destilated water on the printer cartridge. | 22:19 |
| gene | the heater on the building chamber helps the water to dry out | 22:19 |
| gene | faster,and stay on that layer only.Plus the models won't need to go to | 22:19 |
| gene | the owen to dry out.It's made of a 40w soldering iron screwed to the | 22:19 |
| gene | alluminum plate on the building bin. | 22:19 |
| gene | I'll be posting more pictures of next week. | 22:19 |
| gene | oops it was acai | 22:19 |
| `tty` | thanks fenn .. .AVR.. no idea what that is | 22:20 |
| gene | I haven't worked with any microcontroller except for lego smart bricks | 22:20 |
| fenn | it's like a PIC you can program in C, ("real" C) | 22:20 |
| gene | Just got an idea for what OM could do | 22:20 |
| kanzure_ | atmel does AVR | 22:20 |
| fenn | or you can write ASM for it if you are into that | 22:20 |
| gene | build a universal constructor from lego | 22:20 |
| kanzure_ | gene, don't forget that most of the people on OM already have their own damn fablabs | 22:20 |
| gene | really? | 22:21 |
| fenn | not "most" | 22:21 |
| fenn | but an unusually high proportion | 22:21 |
| kanzure_ | there's at least two fablab owners methinks | 22:21 |
| gene | that changes everything | 22:21 |
| kanzure_ | and then there's the factor efarm guys | 22:21 |
| fenn | bah i have as much of a fablab as they do :) | 22:21 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, if you donated 10 bucks to them they'd do anything for you | 22:21 |
| gene | http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?70,11563,page=3 | 22:21 |
| `tty` | i'm not into ASM if I can program in C ... I hardly push those things.. .except in the case of Z80.. we had to write a real-time multi-tasking OS | 22:21 |
| gene | hehehehe... | 22:21 |
| * fenn puts an "engineer for hire" sign in the window | 22:21 | |
| gene | so we have a chicken for laying eggs...' | 22:22 |
| `tty` | and one time we hired this British dude who programmed ARM in ASM for a music sequencer on the gameboy | 22:22 |
| fenn | we have a pile of dead chickens.. | 22:22 |
| `tty` | but healthy eggs | 22:22 |
| fenn | oh that was a metaphor.. hm | 22:23 |
| fenn | what do i do with all these chickens | 22:23 |
| `tty` | recycle? | 22:23 |
| kanzure_ | brb | 22:23 |
| fenn | acai is high in ascorbic acid, maybe it changes the pH | 22:24 |
| kanzure_ | nevermind :) | 22:24 |
| `tty` | you can get anti-oxidants poisoning.. if you take in too much | 22:24 |
| `tty` | and i mean like 20+ bottles a day | 22:25 |
| fenn | i wonder if anyone's done super-saturated sugar solution printing | 22:25 |
| gene | so let's talk about steppers, linear steppers | 22:25 |
| fenn | shut up about linear steppers!! | 22:25 |
| fenn | or at least use the right terminology | 22:25 |
| `tty` | well the candyfab thing, right? what is super-saturated? going over my head | 22:25 |
| gene | fenn i've tried to do super saturated printing with sodium acetate, it didn't work out so well | 22:26 |
| fenn | `tty`: a crystal forms when a solution is above its saturation concentration and there is a seed crystal present | 22:26 |
| `tty` | hmm.. nice | 22:26 |
| fenn | the concentration varies with temperature (higher temp = higher concentration) | 22:26 |
| fenn | so if you dissolve sugar in warm water and let it cool off (such as what happens when you squirt it out of an inkjet) it will crystallize rapidly | 22:27 |
| fenn | gene: i was thinking printing onto a bed of sugar with sugar solution | 22:27 |
| gene | put supersaturated solution in a syringe, tip of the syringe dries forming crystal fucking up everything | 22:27 |
| fenn | like half z-corp half candy-fab | 22:27 |
| gene | that's not either z-corp or candyfab | 22:27 |
| `tty` | what would you do with a DeskFab if you had one today? Personally, I'd use it to build molds, but then what kind of material can I bake inside a plastic mold? | 22:28 |
| gene | that's something new entirely | 22:28 |
| fenn | ok you're right, it's not | 22:28 |
| gene | so would you use inkjets | 22:28 |
| fenn | yes | 22:28 |
| gene | where do you get the inkjet? | 22:28 |
| fenn | office depot | 22:28 |
| fenn | (do you really need to ask that question?) | 22:29 |
| gene | thermal inkjets might not work so well for stuff other than ink | 22:29 |
| fenn | i'm not talking about replicators, just "make" commity crap | 22:29 |
| fenn | HP makes piezo inkjets now right? | 22:29 |
| `tty` | real question: what kind of material can I bake inside a plastic mold? | 22:30 |
| gene | yeah, but piezo inkjets aren't replaceable | 22:30 |
| `tty` | like a micture of chipped wood and glue? just set it in the mold and wait for it to harden? | 22:30 |
| gene | use a silicone mold 'tty' | 22:30 |
| gene | for cooking | 22:30 |
| `tty` | but isn't silicone rubbery? | 22:30 |
| `tty` | deforms? | 22:30 |
| fenn | `tty`: step 1) define the problem. | 22:31 |
| fenn | step 2) solve the problem. | 22:31 |
| `tty` | ok: | 22:31 |
| gene | piezo inkjets can be cleaned out | 22:31 |
| fenn | mmm but the ink adds that special straight-from-the-factory flavor | 22:32 |
| `tty` | 1) I need a rapid prototyping solution that is inexpensive, can be built under a month with less than $400 and can produce cinder-block-sized objects. i want to use it to make molds for the lego pieces | 22:32 |
| fenn | "can be built under a month with less than $400" isnt going to happen, sorry | 22:32 |
| gene | hmmm... I've heard of people putting cells and silica particles through thermal inkjets so it might be a problem | 22:32 |
| `tty` | oops | 22:32 |
| gene | cut foam form | 22:32 |
| gene | do foam casting | 22:33 |
| gene | ??? | 22:33 |
| `tty` | ok, so I can google that... | 22:33 |
| gene | profit? | 22:33 |
| `tty` | NO | 22:33 |
| `tty` | pleasure | 22:33 |
| fenn | `tty`: perhaps you could find someone in your area that does this and has a working machine already? | 22:33 |
| gene | have you considered papercraft? | 22:33 |
| `tty` | tree house ... shed, etc ... | 22:33 |
| fenn | gene? | 22:33 |
| fenn | papercraft for molds... come on | 22:33 |
| `tty` | lol | 22:33 |
| gene | oops, I mean might not be a problem putting sugar through | 22:34 |
| gene | it can be done | 22:34 |
| `tty` | foam casting.. what kind of material can I set into a foam mold? | 22:34 |
| gene | metal | 22:34 |
| gene | only metal | 22:34 |
| fenn | concrete | 22:34 |
| fenn | fiberglass | 22:34 |
| gene | if you dissolve the foam | 22:34 |
| fenn | lots of other stuff | 22:34 |
| fenn | vacuum forming | 22:34 |
| fenn | ceramic, plaster, silicone, wax | 22:35 |
| `tty` | ok, well i have some starting points... that's as far as the legos go | 22:35 |
| fenn | if you bury it in sand you can do all kinds of metals | 22:35 |
| fenn | you should hand-carve some of that blue styrofoam insulation board into your brick shape, and then either do a fiberglass or vacuum formed mold | 22:36 |
| fenn | or silicone mold actually might work best, since you can't add draft to the brick | 22:36 |
| fenn | example: coat the foam "positive" with silicone thinned in a pure non-aromatic hydrocarbon such as hexane, then smear silicone paste on that and let cure, then cast concrete around that | 22:37 |
| `tty` | it would never turn into a business because it's too easy and I don't want to be in the lego making business... However, doing anything commercial from home, i.e. peer production, is how most businesses start.. and somehow they end up centralizing rather than decentralizing | 22:38 |
| fenn | what's too easy? | 22:38 |
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| `tty` | making the stuff | 22:38 |
| fenn | bullshit | 22:38 |
| fenn | everything looks easy on paper | 22:38 |
| gene_ | I miss anything? | 22:38 |
| fenn | gene: last line you saw? | 22:38 |
| `tty` | bullshit | 22:39 |
| fenn | `tty`: you understand the concept 'economy of scale' right? | 22:39 |
| `tty` | i understand the concept of scaled economics, what about it? | 22:40 |
| fenn | it's a powerful driving force toward centralization | 22:40 |
| `tty` | i disagree | 22:40 |
| `tty` | let's say: | 22:40 |
| `tty` | you have 1 machine that puts out 40 parts a day | 22:40 |
| fenn | how big is this machine? | 22:40 |
| `tty` | big enough that you could only have one such machine inside a typical home | 22:41 |
| `tty` | or garage | 22:41 |
| fenn | will it fit in my milk-crate inventory system? | 22:41 |
| fenn | can i get it around the curve in the stairs? | 22:41 |
| `tty` | let's say you can have just one per garage/backyard | 22:41 |
| fenn | most people don't have a garage or backyard | 22:42 |
| fenn | i have seen some funny pictures of small milling machines packed in unusual places | 22:43 |
| `tty` | my point is that whether the production capacity is centralized or distributed (assuming you work with others in a business that you all co-own) | 22:43 |
| fenn | but factories are just big open buildings with thick concrete floors | 22:44 |
| `tty` | then you can increase your production capacity by recruiting more co-owners who each invest in a production machine | 22:44 |
| `tty` | and then the cost of maintenance and R&D (evolving the machine) | 22:44 |
| fenn | hey am i talking to patrick anderson? | 22:44 |
| gene_ | this isn't productive | 22:44 |
| `tty` | is split across all machines | 22:44 |
| `tty` | so you have a big production base but fixed costs of maintenance/evolution of production facility | 22:45 |
| fenn | the cost of maintenance is multiplied by the number of machines | 22:45 |
| fenn | and multiplied again by the number of facilities that house the machines | 22:45 |
| `tty` | as long as all operators use the same machine | 22:45 |
| `tty` | yes but that's the same in a factory | 22:45 |
| fenn | so like, i show up for work on tuesday only? | 22:46 |
| fenn | i thought you were talking about people running machines in their garage | 22:46 |
| `tty` | i'm saying that the argument that economies of scale drive centralization is not a strong one | 22:46 |
| `tty` | yes, 40 people running the same machine in their garage | 22:46 |
| -!- gene_ changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: how hard would it be to make la micrometer accurate or better linear motor? | 22:46 | |
| fenn | la micrometer? is that spanish? :) | 22:47 |
| `tty` | 1 or 5 maintenance people... | 22:47 |
| gene_ | shit | 22:47 |
| fenn | `tty`: you just lost your own argument... | 22:47 |
| `tty` | the point: the cost for growing a decentralized production capacity that is based on standard parts, standard machines is not much more than the cost of growing a centralized production capacity | 22:48 |
| -!- gene_ changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: how hard would it be to make a micrometer accurate or better linear motor? | 22:48 | |
| `tty` | i don't believe you have any argument against what I just stated, or do you? | 22:49 |
| `tty` | decentralized production based on standard production tools: why would it be drmatically less efficient than centralized production? | 22:49 |
| gene_ | a linear motor might be simpler to make than a screw baser linear actuator | 22:49 |
| fenn | i think this is very context dependent and different people have different goals | 22:49 |
| fenn | you are very limited in what processes you can use by being constrained to a residential setting | 22:50 |
| fenn | no 500-ton presses | 22:50 |
| gene_ | the idea behind using a linear motor in something like a micromill is that you could wind a whole bunch of imprecise coils and then correct for the impreciseness with software | 22:51 |
| fenn | there are a lot of people with machine tools in their homes, but mostly they live in rural or suburban areas | 22:51 |
| fenn | and then these arent production machines either | 22:52 |
| gene_ | you might also use air bearings in a set up as I have described to get more accuracy with out precision bearings | 22:54 |
| fenn | air bearings are precision bearings | 22:54 |
| gene_ | air bearings can be laser cut | 22:54 |
| fenn | from precision stock | 22:54 |
| fenn | running on precision way surfaces | 22:54 |
| fenn | perhaps you meant some other type of bearing | 22:54 |
| `tty` | right... more limited options in decentralized setting... | 22:55 |
| gene_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhOUuxPq3Gk | 22:55 |
| `tty` | l8r | 22:55 |
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| -!- `tty` [n=_tty_@c-67-171-16-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] | 22:55 | |
| fenn | float glass is a precision surface... | 22:56 |
| * fenn has to go schlep a couple hundred more pounds of metal around for his "decentralized manufacturing" capability | 22:57 | |
| gene_ | the thing is if you use air bearings and magnets, you can adjust, either the magnetic field or the airflow | 22:57 |
| fenn | yeah "axtrusion" yadda yadda | 22:57 |
| gene_ | http://alioindustries.com/docspdfs/brochures/Brochure_Air_Bearing_Systems_2006-07-07.html | 22:58 |
| gene_ | check this out | 22:58 |
| gene_ | probably will never achieve this accuracy, but cool anyway | 22:58 |
| fenn | you should talk to toastydeath | 22:59 |
| fenn | he makes air bearings for a living and is a precision wingnut | 23:00 |
| gene_ | sounds like my kind of person | 23:00 |
| gene_ | so the problem becomes figuring out where the moving part is | 23:01 |
| gene_ | which might be done with an interferometer | 23:01 |
| fenn | you can use an LVDT if you're more after repeatability than accuracy | 23:08 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: `tty` was marc. | 23:11 |
| kanzure_ | which might be worse than patrick at this point | 23:11 |
| fenn | somebody reprap me a keyboard heater | 23:14 |
| gene_ | what is an LVDT? | 23:21 |
| gene_ | I hope I am not that bad | 23:22 |
| gene_ | a reprapped keyboard heater might pose a fire hazard | 23:22 |
| gene_ | given that reprap can only print plastic | 23:22 |
| fenn | yes, hence the irony | 23:23 |
| gene_ | unless you use silicone | 23:23 |
| * fenn wants an automatic snark mark insertion mechanism | 23:23 | |
| gene_ | how hot do you want your keyboard fenn? | 23:23 |
| gene_ | come to think of it, it might be possible to print a keyboard heater ready to go | 23:24 |
| gene_ | err almost ready to go | 23:25 |
| gene_ | given that the resistance of printed conductors is high(ie wire glue which is graphite mixed with glue) | 23:26 |
| gene_ | you're in luck fenn | 23:26 |
| fenn | really the object i wish to heat is my fingers, but it would be situated over the keyboard | 23:26 |
| gene_ | how about heated hand pads | 23:26 |
| fenn | hard to type in | 23:26 |
| gene_ | do you have a laptop? | 23:27 |
| fenn | yes, but it doesnt keep me warm | 23:27 |
| fenn | and i'm not using it | 23:27 |
| gene_ | hmmm... | 23:27 |
| fenn | ok i'm really going to schlep some cold metal now | 23:27 |
| gene_ | what about something that sits on your keyboard to warm it up? | 23:28 |
| fenn | like a keyboard heater? | 23:28 |
| gene_ | like an electric blanket for your keyboard that heats up the keys | 23:29 |
| gene_ | can you type without looking at the keyboard? | 23:29 |
| gene_ | if so then having something over the keyboard is clearly a better option | 23:30 |
| gene_ | do you find exposed wiring as A. Dangerous or B. Comforting? | 23:32 |
| fenn | depends what voltage | 23:50 |
| fenn | my unease goes up as the square of the voltage | 23:50 |
| fenn | so, transforming dolly made short work of the metal | 23:52 |
| fenn | yay simple machines! | 23:53 |
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