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| samrose | looks like there was an interesting discussion of compressed earth blocks yesterday | 07:21 |
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| kanzure_ | yes | 08:16 |
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| gene_ | http://www.physorg.com/news150395925.html | 12:19 |
| gene_ | check it out | 12:19 |
| gene_ | carbon nanohoops | 12:20 |
| gene_ | for making long carbon nanotubes | 12:27 |
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| kanzure_ | gene_: are you in Austin yet? | 14:47 |
| kanzure_ | didn't think it would ever happen, but it looks like I might see Steve again | 14:47 |
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| gene_ | No I am not back in Austin, why do you ask? | 15:11 |
| gene_ | hmmmm... I need to get the instructions from Sata on how to take algae samples | 15:12 |
| kanzure_ | Steve's an interesting guy I found up in Palo Alto | 15:12 |
| kanzure_ | http://makezine.tv/ | 15:13 |
| gene_ | last name plz?' | 15:13 |
| gene_ | next time you visit palo alto, visit the computer history museum | 15:14 |
| gene_ | I believe you'll find it worthwhile | 15:15 |
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| gene_ | are you still there? | 15:38 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 15:49 |
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| gene | http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0275.html | 16:25 |
| gene | seems he's a bit right and very wrong | 16:26 |
| gene | seems he predicted DRM | 16:27 |
| kanzure_ | kurzweil predicted everything so that he won't become wrong :p | 16:52 |
| kanzure_ | the scatter shot approach: throw a lot of crap at the wall, and then say, "see! one sentence out of ten thousand came true!" | 16:53 |
| gene | indeed | 17:02 |
| gene | so as you were saying earlier | 17:02 |
| gene | btw how far into "herbie rides again" are you | 17:04 |
| gene | well you know it might be possible to measure Kurzweil's accuracy | 17:06 |
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| kanzure_ | it's still downloading. | 17:18 |
| gene | wow, the whole thing? | 17:19 |
| gene | how big is it? | 17:20 |
| kanzure_ | 700 MB. I have a fast connection, but not everyone on demonoid does | 17:22 |
| kanzure_ | "Thomas Schwinge appointed GNU Hurd maintainer" hmm | 17:23 |
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| jk4930 | kanzure_ are you around? | 18:37 |
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| kanzure_ | jk4930: yes | 20:37 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: you're on ycombinator? | 20:37 |
| jk4930 | yeah, but i don't post that often | 20:40 |
| kanzure_ | What's up? | 20:41 |
| jk4930 | just wanted to say that i agree with your statements on OCE | 20:41 |
| jk4930 | read your mail on exi-chat | 20:41 |
| kanzure_ | Which one are you? *poke* | 20:41 |
| jk4930 | jan klauck | 20:41 |
| kanzure_ | a lurker? | 20:41 |
| jk4930 | since several years :) | 20:42 |
| jk4930 | (since 1999 i think) | 20:42 |
| jk4930 | but i post at the OCE list. sometimes | 20:42 |
| kanzure_ | uh oh :) so you already know a lot about me. | 20:42 |
| jk4930 | i like your posts very much | 20:42 |
| kanzure_ | my posts on the open manufacturing list are even better ;-) | 20:42 |
| jk4930 | might be true, but i don't have the time to read too many lists | 20:43 |
| kanzure_ | so what brings you hear tonight? | 20:43 |
| kanzure_ | *here | 20:43 |
| jk4930 | just your exi-chat mail on oce :) | 20:43 |
| kanzure_ | hm, I don't think it's been forwarded .. maybe it's in the super secret architects discussion list? | 20:44 |
| jk4930 | it was the reply on stefano that oce is not about real engineering | 20:44 |
| kanzure_ | ah. | 20:45 |
| jk4930 | and you wrote similar things at the oce list, too | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know why I don't just give up .. everyone else is happy to participate with me (like the open source hardware people) | 20:45 |
| jk4930 | was it you some time ago who said that most H+ers are just cheerleaders? well... :) | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | but for some reason these people put a stake in a lot of these technologies | 20:46 |
| fenn | what is OCE? | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | "claiming the territory" almost | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: http://cosmeng.org/ | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: it makes itself look like an *actual* engineering transhumanist group | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | but then proceeds to suck. | 20:46 |
| fenn | pooh. why don't they do stuff? | 20:47 |
| jk4930 | but it tastes more like a WoW kiddie assoc. | 20:47 |
| jk4930 | fenn: because most can | 20:47 |
| jk4930 | can't | 20:47 |
| kanzure_ | then they should stfu | 20:47 |
| fenn | too busy playing video games | 20:47 |
| kanzure_ | eugen leitl should become their overlord or something | 20:47 |
| fenn | the only thing you were born knowing was how to shit and complain | 20:47 |
| kanzure_ | he did that for WTA back in the 90s, but I was too young to comprehend | 20:47 |
| jk4930 | don't know how much eugen is into this VR gaming | 20:48 |
| jk4930 | i think he's one of those few people who can do something | 20:48 |
| jk4930 | like keith | 20:48 |
| kanzure_ | eugen > keith :) | 20:48 |
| kanzure_ | http://eugen.leitl.org/ | 20:48 |
| jk4930 | are you sure? | 20:48 |
| kanzure_ | well, I know keith has more big names backing himself up, but keith is so pessimistic about everything these days | 20:49 |
| * fenn mumbles something about thumbnails | 20:49 | |
| jk4930 | that can change | 20:49 |
| jk4930 | don't forget his near history | 20:49 |
| jk4930 | i talk with him offlist a bit | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | keith makes himself sound like the only "real" engineer on the list | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | and if that's true, why isn't he drawing schematics and doing shit | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | ;-) | 20:50 |
| jk4930 | sometime the list tastes like he's the only one... | 20:50 |
| fenn | ", a transhumanist association, a space advocacy group, a spiritual movement, a literary salon, a technology observatory, an idea factory, a virtual worlds development group, and a global community of persons willing to take an active role in building, in realizing a sunny future." | 20:50 |
| jk4930 | oh well he's calculating his SE + SPS stuff | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | anyway, the om list has a weird accumulation of transhumanists on it | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | it's kind of freaky actually | 20:50 |
| fenn | not sure how you get "makes itself look like an actual engineering group" out of that | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | we're just on about open source manufacturing | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | but everyone has transhumanist backgrounds there | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | Michel Bauwens did "Technocalypse" (the video) | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | Paul Fernhout did the Kurzweil critiques, doesn't call himself a transhumanist but knows generally about it | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | smari too .. | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: "order of cosmic engineers, the only truly radical transhumanist organization!" | 20:52 |
| genehacker | call me when you start doing engineering | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: schematics don't count? | 20:52 |
| jk4930 | fenn: they like to sound like engineers when they advertise themselves :) | 20:52 |
| fenn | radical, like carrots and stuff? | 20:52 |
| genehacker | schematics for? | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: equipment, unit processes, tools, dependency tree analyses | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | just because they don't teach you about tools to make more tools in engineering classes doesn't mean it's not an engineering/design issue | 20:53 |
| fenn | i wouldnt mind schematics for an eye tracker or something mundane like that | 20:53 |
| kanzure_ | the circuits? | 20:53 |
| genehacker | ok where do I start? | 20:53 |
| fenn | circuits and software | 20:53 |
| kanzure_ | start with what? | 20:53 |
| genehacker | normal webcams are capable of eyetracking I believe | 20:54 |
| kanzure_ | see opencv | 20:54 |
| genehacker | anything kanzure | 20:54 |
| fenn | genehacker: make something cool and useful, document it thoroughly, release under a permissive license | 20:54 |
| jk4930 | genehacker: and then make a startup with it | 20:54 |
| kanzure_ | hah | 20:54 |
| kanzure_ | we kind of bounce around the idea of a startup every now and then sort of | 20:54 |
| fenn | genehacker is all about profits | 20:54 |
| kanzure_ | but | 20:55 |
| genehacker | hey why not? | 20:55 |
| kanzure_ | everyone wants to do a startup, but "show me the money" | 20:55 |
| fenn | after reading paul graham i dont really want to do a startup | 20:55 |
| jk4930 | fenn: why not? | 20:55 |
| kanzure_ | which essays in particular? | 20:55 |
| fenn | sounds like a lot of work | 20:55 |
| fenn | i dont recall which essays, something about "why rich people are rich" | 20:55 |
| kanzure_ | what I'd be okay with is if there was some sort of open source-only venture capitalist | 20:56 |
| kanzure_ | where I don't have to explain what's so awesome about the permissive license aspects | 20:56 |
| genehacker | ok so here's what I'm working on right now, an ECM setup for reprap, will be released under premise that you make it | 20:56 |
| kanzure_ | because that's so much overhead in explaining it to vc guys | 20:56 |
| jk4930 | then bootstrap it | 20:56 |
| kanzure_ | hm? | 20:57 |
| jk4930 | don't depend on VC | 20:57 |
| kanzure_ | with what? some of that funding would be used to go get the tools to build more tools [more rapidly] | 20:57 |
| fenn | will be released under the premise that you make it? like, you wont actually test your chickenscratching and want to waste my time? | 20:57 |
| kanzure_ | well, yeah, I'd do that but I'm in school, and I'd need something to fall back on | 20:57 |
| jk4930 | then try some business angels. few might unterstand | 20:57 |
| genehacker | well then I just release it with some good liscense or something | 20:58 |
| kanzure_ | "open source industrial automation/engineering design firm" | 20:58 |
| kanzure_ | that's a pretty good way to word it methinks | 20:58 |
| kanzure_ | or "cygnus but for manufacturing" | 20:58 |
| fenn | this morning i was daydreaming about fully automated grocery stores | 20:58 |
| jk4930 | or look for an industrial sponsor | 20:58 |
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| kanzure_ | jk4930: what? do you think an industrial sponsor would be interested in this? | 20:59 |
| fenn | "robot robot revolution" | 20:59 |
| kanzure_ | they're so hush-hush with their IP .. | 20:59 |
| kanzure_ | I would be surprised | 20:59 |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_Solutions | 20:59 |
| kanzure_ | " | 20:59 |
| kanzure_ | Cygnus Solutions, originally Cygnus Support, was founded in 1989 by John Gilmore, Michael Tiemann and David Henkel-Wallace to provide commercial support for free software. Its tagline was: Making free software affordable. Cygnus is a recursive acronym for "Cygnus, Your GNU Support"." | 20:59 |
| jk4930 | there are some projects supported by intel btw | 20:59 |
| kanzure_ | was this before or after there was a significant code base | 20:59 |
| jk4930 | don't know | 21:00 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: look at this http://www.openarchitecturenetwork.org/about | 21:01 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: so, real quick now, one of the main projects in here is open source hardware packaging in a format like .deb | 21:02 |
| kanzure_ | for apt-get but for more than just software | 21:02 |
| jk4930 | for stuff like fab lab (or so)? | 21:02 |
| kanzure_ | that's the idea :) | 21:02 |
| kanzure_ | definitely with fablab integration (see fabuntu- but they're just domain squatting) | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | *name squatting | 21:03 |
| fenn | like fablab but more so | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | woah wtf | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | fabuntu.org "NOTICE: This domain name expired on 12/04/2008 and is pending renewal or deletion" | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | huh | 21:03 |
| jk4930 | i am sure there _are_ investors who are interested in this | 21:03 |
| fenn | d'eaux | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | glad I grabbed the (craptastic, anyway) ISOs | 21:04 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: which ones though? | 21:04 |
| kanzure_ | I mean, how does one go about finding investors who know about open source, and fablabs? | 21:04 |
| kanzure_ | is there a query box somewhere? :) | 21:04 |
| jk4930 | i have to look. fablab is not yet my domain | 21:04 |
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| fenn | does that mean i can squat fablab.org? | 21:04 |
| jk4930 | but i can bring it up here and then | 21:04 |
| fenn | er.. fabuntu.org | 21:04 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: maybe. I say go for it. | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | in fact, if you can find if you can buy it, I'll chip in the money | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | fablab.org: "Welcome to the laboratory of cell biology and immunology" | 21:05 |
| fenn | hmmm [BBINFreecycle~Y] WANTED:cooking thermometer, large pots/kettles, scale, beakers | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | we have support from Erik (on om) to host any large archive/mirror network (he hosts reprap.org and winehq) | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | hah, somebody from diybio? | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: any hints would be awesome. Should I go to ycombinator? | 21:06 |
| fenn | nah, fabric dyeing | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | "my team's ready, but I don't know about a command crew" or however the Star Wars quote goes. | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | (other way around) | 21:06 |
| genehacker | so here's a business plan, free medicine, except the medicine expresses ads for various upgrades you can buy | 21:06 |
| fenn | kanzure_: if you're going on a begging for money roll, check out submeta.org | 21:06 |
| jk4930 | ycombinator just gives around USD 5,000 | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: that's a stupid idea. but free medicine is a good idea. | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | haha | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | I know the submeta guy :) | 21:06 |
| genehacker | yeah that's why it's a joke | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | he contacted me a while back | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: Andrew Hessel is doing free cancer treatments using open source biotech, btw | 21:07 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: when i find investors i'll tell you | 21:07 |
| kanzure_ | ohhh | 21:08 |
| kanzure_ | Garret Lisi told me about submeta | 21:08 |
| fenn | huh. | 21:08 |
| kanzure_ | Bruce Wonnacott <bwonnacott@submeta.org> | 21:08 |
| Splicer | an unrelated qustion: what was the name of that graphical gene/biobrick editor someone was building? | 21:10 |
| kanzure_ | tinkercell | 21:10 |
| Splicer | (the last one) | 21:10 |
| Splicer | yeah.. thank you | 21:11 |
| Splicer | (lost some bookmarks) | 21:11 |
| kanzure_ | oh crap, are you ok? | 21:13 |
| kanzure_ | hm, submeta is showing up at bilconference (Todd's conference) | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: did I mention that Steve and Anna are driving in to Austin tonight? | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | they randomly called me while I was at the dentist's office today, so this is pretty sudden | 21:17 |
| genehacker | ha | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | what to do with a bunch of aspies at 2 in the morning | 21:17 |
| Splicer | kanz: me? I had the most important stuff on a usb stick... forgot about the bookmarks | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: I seem to recall reading on ycombinator about you and asperger's | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | or some such | 21:18 |
| kanzure_ | aspergian getaway island? /me double checks | 21:18 |
| genehacker | well the answer is obvious: party | 21:18 |
| kanzure_ | "We should note that IT itself is a kind of an "Aspergism-Amplifier": When one has an aspie-bias before, IT might make it stronger. And when one switches from math or IT to project management and similar social activities, aspergism steps a bit back (even if the untold rules, rituals, and mean social games can be a real pain). I experienced that myself several times and know of other people who told me that, too." | 21:18 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: well, yes :) | 21:19 |
| kanzure_ | I was once building an Asperger's Amplifier | 21:19 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention | 21:19 |
| kanzure_ | but that's probably the opposite direction that most people would like to go | 21:20 |
| Splicer | I don't know if you're familiar with the PUA community? | 21:20 |
| jk4930 | sure :) | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | PUA? | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | pick-up and seduction? | 21:20 |
| Splicer | Many of the really good ones there have social aquardnesses... | 21:20 |
| Splicer | kanz: yeah | 21:20 |
| Splicer | tyler durden comes to mind | 21:20 |
| genehacker | with that asperger amplifier we might be able to make everyone an aspie | 21:20 |
| jk4930 | genehacker: hell!!1!! | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | I'm mostly interested in just myself | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | but if you want to make a giant death ray or something | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | I might consider stopping you (maybe) | 21:21 |
| fenn | pick-up and seduction community? | 21:21 |
| Splicer | social hacking is useful | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | pick-up artists, I'm guessing it's how there's so much porn out there .. | 21:21 |
| fenn | is this like, DIY hypnosis? | 21:22 |
| fenn | for nefarious ends | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | no, it's more like "hey, You Want a Drink" *jedi hand-waving* | 21:22 |
| genehacker | umm I don't have a giant death ray, it's just a laser | 21:22 |
| Splicer | it's everything now... it was hypnosis/NLP maybe 2 generations ago | 21:22 |
| fenn | same thing | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | nlp is still clogging the intertubes | 21:23 |
| Splicer | nlp is not good but it's something | 21:23 |
| genehacker | well you know kanzure, bombarding someone's retina with electrons they will forget the last 3-4 seconds of what just happened | 21:23 |
| genehacker | it's a bit like hypnosis | 21:24 |
| fenn | gene at least get the physics right | 21:24 |
| fenn | (photons, not electrons) | 21:24 |
| genehacker | no really electrons | 21:24 |
| fenn | gwah | 21:24 |
| Splicer | i digress... my point was that many of the successful ones have traits that lean towads aspergers a bit... like tyler durden | 21:24 |
| genehacker | like beta particles | 21:24 |
| fenn | Splicer: tyler durden, or "the guy" | 21:24 |
| kanzure_ | Splicer: social defiance disorder can be related. | 21:24 |
| kanzure_ | erm, not social defiance, excuse me, it's .. uhh .. | 21:24 |
| Splicer | sounds like more of the same to me | 21:25 |
| genehacker | terrorism? | 21:25 |
| kanzure_ | the one where you're purposely deceptive all the time and it's how business folk assrape everyone else | 21:25 |
| Splicer | fenn: I don't remember his name... I think his thing was "Real social dynamics" | 21:26 |
| Splicer | wall street | 21:26 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: sociopathy? | 21:26 |
| kanzure_ | ah | 21:26 |
| kanzure_ | that's pretty close to the mark | 21:26 |
| Splicer | hey.. let's have a revolution and see what comes out | 21:27 |
| genehacker | you guys are starting to sound pretty communist to me | 21:28 |
| * fenn puts on the techno and starts dancing to "robot robot revolution" | 21:28 | |
| genehacker | let's have a technocratic revolution | 21:28 |
| genehacker | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_(bureaucratic) | 21:29 |
| fenn | let's STOP ALL SPACE EXPLORATION NOW! | 21:29 |
| jk4930 | genehacker: bad idea. | 21:29 |
| Splicer | sure... I'm in | 21:29 |
| genehacker | why fenn? | 21:29 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: link? | 21:29 |
| genehacker | I want off this damn ball of rock! | 21:29 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: just because we don't slave to money doesn't make us communist | 21:29 |
| fenn | genehacker: i think this page summarizes the relevant arguments succinctly: http://wolfbat359.com/space.htm | 21:30 |
| jk4930 | i like money :) | 21:30 |
| kanzure_ | I'd rather have nothing to do with it | 21:30 |
| jk4930 | (was a quote from Idiocracy) | 21:30 |
| * kanzure_ points out that a friend of his got the electric car from Idiocracy :-) | 21:30 | |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: but for real, what's so bad about it? it's very useful. | 21:31 |
| jk4930 | oh, does it drive with electrolytes? | 21:31 |
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| kanzure_ | not sure :) I haven't seen it yet | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | so what's so bad about money .. uh, it's a useless layer on top of physics | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | I know I can do things, I don't need money to tell me if I can/can't | 21:31 |
| fenn | kanzure_: sorry no link.. just the name of my daydream corporate entity behind the robot grocery stores | 21:32 |
| jk4930 | no, it's not. it's an effective and efficient way of resource allocation in a complex, distributed system | 21:32 |
| fenn | RRR! | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | resource allocation | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | hahah | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | yay for scarcity assumptions | 21:32 |
| * kanzure_ looks up at the sky | 21:32 | |
| jk4930 | we don't have post scarcity yet... | 21:32 |
| genehacker | think of it this way: walmarts, MacDonalds, and stores like that are cell types in some large organism | 21:33 |
| fenn | ironically, money is not very good at resource allocation anymore, due to large bureaucracies spending other peoples' money | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | "Welcome, you have now become unemployed. We regret to inform you that there | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | aren't many openings for jobs, and the alternative to working to live hasn't | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | been able to fully scale and deploy at this time. Good luck." | 21:33 |
| fenn | so things get "bought" that nobody really wanted in the first place | 21:33 |
| genehacker | heh | 21:34 |
| genehacker | especially considering that HUGE bailout that they did | 21:34 |
| jk4930 | the problems of consumerism or bailouts is not the problem of the existence of money | 21:34 |
| kanzure_ | money doesn't even make sense to me. resource allocation is a nonsense topic, go look at memory allocation algorithms | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | there's no money running *my* kernel | 21:35 |
| genehacker | I believe that the bailout is over 900 giant robots right now | 21:35 |
| jk4930 | different thing | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | oh? | 21:35 |
| fenn | yes, btw here is a nice graphic illustrating the HUGENESS of it: http://voltagecreative.com/blog/2008/11/scary-bailout-money-info-graphic/ | 21:35 |
| genehacker | so how do you power your computer? | 21:35 |
| * fenn kicks slow internet | 21:35 | |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: fucking energy | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | not money. | 21:35 |
| fenn | damn people keep downloading stuff! | 21:35 |
| genehacker | how do you get it? | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | the sun | 21:36 |
| genehacker | how do you convert it? | 21:36 |
| kanzure_ | bioreactor | 21:36 |
| genehacker | what happens when it get's dark? | 21:36 |
| kanzure_ | batteries | 21:36 |
| genehacker | how do you get the batteries? | 21:36 |
| kanzure_ | I make them | 21:36 |
| genehacker | how do you make them? | 21:37 |
| kanzure_ | materials | 21:37 |
| kanzure_ | (and some tools) | 21:37 |
| fenn | zinc air fuel cell is fairly straightforward to make from dirt | 21:37 |
| genehacker | how do you get the land necessary for a suitably sized solarcell/bioreactor array | 21:37 |
| kanzure_ | "how do you make the tools?" <-- bingo, that's what fenn and I are on about | 21:37 |
| genehacker | and I do too | 21:37 |
| kanzure_ | how do I get it? | 21:37 |
| kanzure_ | look, | 21:37 |
| fenn | but flywheels or gravity are probably better for stationary applications | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | I explained this to Paul, let me get a link | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | for some reason people were stupid when breeding | 21:38 |
| genehacker | flywheels aren't that great | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | "oh, let's just make a lot of little children" | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | "without making sure they have adequate resources" | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | breeding without a material acquistiion infrastructure is a really stupid idea | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | because then you have an exponential growth process over a finite material resource population | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | *resource cache | 21:38 |
| jk4930 | (here we have a wellfare system that cares about those breeders.) | 21:38 |
| fenn | genehacker: lots of other ways to store energy, it's not a bottleneck | 21:38 |
| genehacker | flywheels are great if you have the ability to scale up a lot | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | hold on a for a link | 21:39 |
| kanzure_ | *sec | 21:39 |
| kanzure_ | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/934ca56d187e12e8 | 21:39 |
| genehacker | cut the philosophy, let's get to making the tools to make the tools | 21:39 |
| kanzure_ | no shit | 21:39 |
| fenn | eh but which tools to make first? | 21:40 |
| kanzure_ | bingo .. | 21:40 |
| * kanzure_ needs another word for bingo | 21:40 | |
| * fenn points at mile-long project list | 21:40 | |
| fenn | shaZAM! | 21:40 |
| genehacker | what I don't already have in my garage | 21:40 |
| jk4930 | whew, that's a long text... | 21:40 |
| kanzure_ | how about "That's what we've been saying all the damn time" | 21:40 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: oh, well, let me get the relevant section | 21:40 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: start at "in reality there's not really" | 21:41 |
| jk4930 | ok. i just read your statements on risks. you should own the book Systemantics to have a better orientation on that... :) | 21:42 |
| kanzure_ | haha | 21:43 |
| kanzure_ | I like the wikipedia article on systemantics | 21:43 |
| kanzure_ | [system[antics]] or semantics etc.. | 21:43 |
| jk4930 | i have the book. it's great | 21:43 |
| fenn | that was probably the wrong email to cite | 21:43 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: oh? | 21:43 |
| jk4930 | after studying system science that was the book over the untold dark secrets | 21:43 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: should I pick it up? I felt I got the jist of it from the wikipedia article a while back. I also liked Donella Meadows "Dancing with systems" | 21:43 |
| kanzure_ | and then there's Stu Kauffman and a few other related books | 21:44 |
| kanzure_ | "Dancing with systems" and "12 leverage points" being the main ones IIRC | 21:44 |
| fenn | btw fabuntu.org was not available | 21:44 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: which email would have been better? | 21:44 |
| kanzure_ | for that particular argument | 21:44 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: where in your posting is the stuff on economics/money? | 21:45 |
| kanzure_ | well I was ranting about the subsection about being born into the system | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | but right, it's not specifically re: money. | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | personally once you have your own space habitat, feel free to bootstrap it and boot it up with any sort of crazy money pyramid scheme you want | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | just let the rest of us fork and get the hell away | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | :p | 21:46 |
| jk4930 | and reg. systemantics, it's a nice book with good examples. it elaborates on complexity and why so many designed systems fail | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | any scans? | 21:47 |
| fenn | where's that damned automated book scanner I was promised? | 21:47 |
| jk4930 | never found scans. bought the book then :) | 21:47 |
| kanzure_ | even google ended up scanning in pages by hand :( | 21:48 |
| kanzure_ | you can sometimes see fingers in the pages | 21:48 |
| fenn | wtf | 21:48 |
| fenn | real fingers? not robot fingers/ | 21:49 |
| kanzure_ | yes :( | 21:49 |
| fenn | why did they do that? | 21:49 |
| kanzure_ | human error | 21:49 |
| kanzure_ | you inevitably slip up after so many pages | 21:49 |
| fenn | i dont understand | 21:49 |
| fenn | i mean why did they go with humans turning the pges | 21:50 |
| fenn | instead of using an automated book scanning machine | 21:50 |
| kanzure_ | had to do something with their billions? :( | 21:50 |
| fenn | s/an/an army of/ | 21:50 |
| kanzure_ | http://blog.hyperjeff.net/?p=72 | 21:50 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/004030.html | 21:50 |
| kanzure_ | ("quick! to the blogosphere!") | 21:51 |
| genehacker | ok so what do we do to decide which tools to make | 21:51 |
| kanzure_ | dependency trees | 21:51 |
| genehacker | show me them | 21:51 |
| kanzure_ | we make them | 21:51 |
| genehacker | how? | 21:52 |
| kanzure_ | take a hint from debian dependency trees | 21:52 |
| kanzure_ | *by taking a hint | 21:52 |
| kanzure_ | but we're also including instructions/recipes for how to make the package | 21:52 |
| fenn | build dependency tree based on input/output requirements | 21:53 |
| fenn | standard computer science stuff | 21:53 |
| jk4930 | and then we end up with a dependency hell? | 21:53 |
| kanzure_ | at some bottom line the parts must be supplied from an external source, it's true, but Gingery for instance went extremist and did it via recycling, but only because his balls were the size of Jupiter. | 21:53 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: haha :) | 21:53 |
| genehacker | so what if it is hell? I don't care as long as it works | 21:54 |
| kanzure_ | uh | 21:54 |
| kanzure_ | that's not what he means | 21:54 |
| genehacker | oh shoot | 21:54 |
| genehacker | I get it | 21:54 |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell | 21:54 |
| fenn | jk4930: we already have a dependency hell, the solution is to use software tools to actively manage it and make concise accurate decisions about what to do first | 21:54 |
| kanzure_ | " | 21:54 |
| kanzure_ | The issue of dependency hell may be regarded as an anti-pattern, where the fault lies less with the suppliers of the products than with the framework into which they have to fit." | 21:54 |
| kanzure_ | " | 21:55 |
| kanzure_ | In some Linux distributions, the system needs to install new packages to configure Internet access, but it also needs Internet access to download the packages. This is circular dependency hell (a form of a catch 22)." | 21:55 |
| fenn | gingery stuff still has a lot of external dependencies | 21:55 |
| kanzure_ | yes :( | 21:55 |
| kanzure_ | Paul thought my finding gingery unfortunate was weird | 21:55 |
| genehacker | I think this dependency tree thing will show how dependent machines are on humans | 21:55 |
| fenn | anything realistic will, for the next decade or so at least | 21:55 |
| kanzure_ | but as awesome as gingery was it's still not optimal | 21:55 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: humans must still have instructions | 21:56 |
| fenn | far from optimal, most of it is amateur first attempts | 21:56 |
| kanzure_ | it's not like this is magical | 21:56 |
| genehacker | well how did the industrial revolution begin, how were the first lathes made | 21:56 |
| fenn | the difference is that gingery made a complete set | 21:56 |
| kanzure_ | the industrial revolution was a scam | 21:56 |
| kanzure_ | it was just "precise repetitive manufacturing of artifacts" | 21:56 |
| fenn | whereas most earlier authors only had random scattered magazine articles | 21:56 |
| genehacker | so? | 21:56 |
| kanzure_ | not truly interoperable parts | 21:56 |
| fenn | i think you're taking the whole interchangeable parts thing out of context | 21:57 |
| fenn | it used to be that every bolt had its own custom hand-crafted nut | 21:57 |
| kanzure_ | ok ok, we'll rant about that later | 21:57 |
| fenn | and each blacksmith made their own specific wrenches for their bolts etc | 21:57 |
| genehacker | yeah I know fenn | 21:57 |
| genehacker | but how were the bolts made? | 21:57 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: c'mon, industrial revolution was a scam? don't be so mean :) | 21:57 |
| fenn | well, in middle ages by twisting over a forge | 21:57 |
| fenn | more like lag screws than bolts really | 21:58 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: just some left-over rant waiting to come out of me :) | 21:58 |
| jk4930 | industrial revolution was not only about production but also about distribution and social institutions | 21:58 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: I'm angry I don't have truly interoperable parts, not just "interchangeable parts" | 21:58 |
| genehacker | so how were machines that make bolts and screws made | 21:58 |
| fenn | they didnt have machines that made bolts | 21:59 |
| kanzure_ | we don't need to use ancient machines though | 21:59 |
| fenn | or are you asking how was the first leadscrew made? | 21:59 |
| genehacker | how were the first ones made | 21:59 |
| kanzure_ | it's not like this must sacrifice technical advancement for historical accuracy | 21:59 |
| fenn | google up henry maudslay | 21:59 |
| genehacker | yeah I know | 21:59 |
| fenn | if you know then why are you asking? :) | 21:59 |
| * kanzure_ picked up a book today called "A Handbook of Pictorials of Technical Devices" | 21:59 | |
| genehacker | cool | 22:00 |
| genehacker | for free? | 22:00 |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: it seems you ignore the social dimensions of technological development and diffusion processes. wait, i've something for you | 22:00 |
| genehacker | or did you pay for it? | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | no. | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | paid | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | jk4930: I might have ignored it in my study of the industrial revolution, that's true | 22:00 |
| genehacker | you should download "1800 mechanical movements" | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | the carnegie library? | 22:00 |
| kanzure_ | oh, it's a book | 22:00 |
| fenn | 1800 is pretty good from what i've browsed so far | 22:00 |
| genehacker | I don't see the point in dependency trees | 22:00 |
| * fenn needs a djvu to pdf converter that doesnt suck | 22:01 | |
| jk4930 | kanzure_: http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/404/CH1.HTM | 22:01 |
| genehacker | I gave up and just downloaded DJVU | 22:01 |
| fenn | genehacker: please tell me what to make first then | 22:01 |
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| kanzure_ | jk4930: I'll look into that. | 22:02 |
| genehacker | first we need to demonstrate an automatic assembling system | 22:02 |
| fenn | that's first? | 22:02 |
| fenn | what are you going to assemble together? | 22:03 |
| genehacker | capable of assembling pretty much anything, with minimal assistance of jigs or at least precision jigs | 22:03 |
| fenn | i can assemble things in my sleep, tell my why i need a machine to do this | 22:03 |
| genehacker | why not? | 22:03 |
| fenn | because there are other things i can't do with my bare hands | 22:03 |
| genehacker | I thought the end result of this was a self replicating machine | 22:04 |
| fenn | no, the end result is the abolition of work | 22:04 |
| fenn | i dont really care if it's self replicating or not | 22:04 |
| kanzure_ | the same infrastructure is needed though anyway | 22:05 |
| genehacker | well then we need a precision machine shop | 22:05 |
| fenn | what do you base these assertions on? | 22:05 |
| fenn | precision machine shops have been around for hundreds of years | 22:06 |
| fenn | and people still work.. | 22:06 |
| * fenn needs to find a different word than "work' | 22:06 | |
| genehacker | define work? | 22:06 |
| genehacker | as in a precision machine shop that can make machine shops | 22:07 |
| fenn | labor, doing pretty much anything you don't want to do, for economic purposes | 22:07 |
| fenn | ok now you're getting somewhere | 22:08 |
| fenn | so, why can't existing machine shops make more machine shops? | 22:08 |
| genehacker | of or relating to an economy, the system of production and management of material wealth; | 22:08 |
| genehacker | machine shops can't process ore | 22:08 |
| kanzure_ | ore mining and processing operations are built by machine shops .. | 22:09 |
| genehacker | some machine shops can for the most part | 22:09 |
| fenn | kanzure_: actually a lot of it is made in steel mills.. | 22:09 |
| kanzure_ | blah. | 22:09 |
| genehacker | well some parts are made in foundary's | 22:10 |
| fenn | but the parts to make a steel mill are generally made by machine shops, so there's that | 22:10 |
| genehacker | like big parts | 22:10 |
| genehacker | like large single piece metal parts | 22:10 |
| fenn | ok so where do i start? the mining equipment? the foundry? | 22:11 |
| genehacker | the machine for making the mining equipment | 22:12 |
| fenn | weaksauce: " Google has released few details of its scanning project (the search company has nondisclosure agreements with its library partners)" | 22:12 |
| kanzure_ | "it's made of people!" | 22:12 |
| fenn | nooooo | 22:13 |
| kanzure_ | srsly, respect-- | 22:13 |
| genehacker | http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/AASM5A.html | 22:14 |
| kanzure_ | you have a GDP larger than 50% of the nations of the world, and you can't even build a damn auto book scanner | 22:14 |
| genehacker | self replicating machine shop | 22:14 |
| fenn | internet archive has humans in the scanning process too | 22:15 |
| fenn | except they hold the pages down with a pedal operated piece of glass | 22:15 |
| fenn | they have 10 whole "machines".. hmm | 22:16 |
| * fenn wonders where that $5M went | 22:16 | |
| fenn | auto book scanner = $15k | 22:16 |
| genehacker | this is off topic | 22:16 |
| fenn | what is off topic? | 22:16 |
| -!- genehacker changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: eliminating work | 22:16 | |
| fenn | auto book scanners reduce the amount of work going into making information accessible | 22:17 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: your link just talks about a specific company | 22:17 |
| genehacker | yes it does | 22:17 |
| kanzure_ | it's like saying "well, you have to believe me that this place Knows How To Do It" | 22:17 |
| kanzure_ | so that's not a good answer to fenn's question, imo | 22:18 |
| genehacker | ok | 22:18 |
| kanzure_ | unless he thinks otherwise .. | 22:18 |
| genehacker | acknowledged | 22:18 |
| * fenn reads gene's link | 22:19 | |
| genehacker | so how can we make a part fabricator that uses minimal exogenous components | 22:20 |
| fenn | define exogenous | 22:22 |
| genehacker | not makeable by the part fabricator | 22:23 |
| fenn | "A group of interacting extended self-replicating systems may form a still larger self-reproducing system with yet more complex capabilities. " | 22:24 |
| fenn | this is basically a summary of 1) life and 2) civilization | 22:24 |
| genehacker | yes indeed | 22:24 |
| genehacker | now moving on | 22:24 |
| fenn | so, exogenous.. hmm | 22:25 |
| fenn | we're minimizing the number of different types of components or the raw amount? | 22:25 |
| fenn | or some kind of halfway point | 22:25 |
| fenn | because a mechanical computer seems like an easy way to reduce the number of different types | 22:26 |
| genehacker | it does | 22:26 |
| fenn | but i dont think it's realistic | 22:26 |
| genehacker | but that comes at an expense of making it really huge | 22:26 |
| genehacker | you didn't say it had to be automated fenn | 22:26 |
| fenn | or using some new really small feature size machining technology | 22:27 |
| fenn | it has to be automated because otherwise you require humans in the loop = work | 22:27 |
| genehacker | ok | 22:27 |
| fenn | we already have non-automated self replicating systems, it's called civilization, roughly | 22:27 |
| genehacker | then let's figure out how to assemble pretty much anything with one or two machines | 22:27 |
| genehacker | from basic parts | 22:28 |
| fenn | if i share my idea you will just poop all over it | 22:28 |
| genehacker | ie, nuts, bolts, metal plates, gear boxes | 22:28 |
| fenn | you are stuck in lego-land | 22:29 |
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| fenn | raw materials dont come in the form of a gear box | 22:29 |
| genehacker | indeed they don't | 22:29 |
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| genehacker | we need a human replacer | 22:30 |
| fenn | what functions does a human perform? | 22:30 |
| * fenn wonders how long of a book that would be | 22:30 | |
| genehacker | a bunch of humans can assemble pretty much anything from a set of parts | 22:30 |
| fenn | really big things? really small things? electronic components? | 22:31 |
| genehacker | yes really big things, yes really small things, but they'd have to make intermediate parts to make the parts | 22:32 |
| fenn | but that's cheating | 22:32 |
| fenn | you can just say "..and then we make some intermediate parts, and here's the fully functioning nano replicator" | 22:33 |
| genehacker | nanoreplicators are easy, but useless | 22:33 |
| fenn | i'll ignore that comment | 22:33 |
| fenn | so, what is a human capable of? | 22:33 |
| genehacker | part positioning, rudimentary part checking, part identification | 22:35 |
| fenn | hint: the end result should include quantitative information like this: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/human_strength_vs_position.png | 22:36 |
| genehacker | interesting | 22:36 |
| fenn | i think you more or less have to define a kinematic model and a function for muscle position vs force | 22:37 |
| fenn | and then there are control and feedback parameters like reaction time or bandwidth etc | 22:37 |
| genehacker | you know when they design a space station they make sure it is buildable by humans | 22:37 |
| fenn | "they" are a bunch of idiots | 22:38 |
| genehacker | humans are cheap | 22:38 |
| fenn | not in space they arent | 22:38 |
| genehacker | yeah | 22:38 |
| fenn | when termites build a termite mound, they make sure it's buildable by termites | 22:38 |
| fenn | doesn't make a termite mound the best thing to build | 22:39 |
| genehacker | no really, when they design space station components they check to make sure that people don't have to get into near impossible positions to put stuff together | 22:40 |
| fenn | yah i know, the big water tank | 22:40 |
| genehacker | no they do it with computers | 22:40 |
| fenn | they do the water tank too | 22:40 |
| fenn | did you know NASA built a whole extra space shuttle just for testing? | 22:41 |
| genehacker | no | 22:41 |
| fenn | there were two actually | 22:41 |
| fenn | they scraped one of them together into a functional shuttle, discovery i think? | 22:42 |
| fenn | so, computers have come along a bit since the 70's but i still think there's a big place for real world testing | 22:43 |
| genehacker | oops I am sorry Fenn, it was to make sure that the humans didn't bump into the equipment | 22:44 |
| fenn | er... why? | 22:44 |
| fenn | i mean, you wouldnt have any appreciable velocity | 22:44 |
| fenn | or is this for protein crystallization experiments where it has to be absolutely still | 22:45 |
| genehacker | because it really get's on your nerves bumping into a pipe everytime you walk through corrider 31 | 22:45 |
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| kanzure_ | walk? | 22:45 |
| genehacker | oh it was servicing | 22:46 |
| fenn | this is traffic flow stuff, more like fluid dynamics than kinematic constraints | 22:46 |
| genehacker | yeah it was what I described | 22:46 |
| * fenn has lost interest | 22:46 | |
| genehacker | Kanzure it's on page 53-54 of graphics for engineers | 22:47 |
| genehacker | ok moving on | 22:47 |
| genehacker | so how do we make a machine capable of assembling itself from spare parts? | 22:47 |
| fenn | that's been done, see numerous lego examples | 22:48 |
| fenn | its the classic von neuman "sea of parts" scenario | 22:48 |
| fenn | basically it's semantics when you get down to it | 22:48 |
| genehacker | yeah but they can't replicate from "individual lego parts" | 22:49 |
| fenn | the apple resting on the ground is the final state, so look! it self assembled! | 22:49 |
| genehacker | I fail to see your analogy | 22:49 |
| fenn | well, what's a lego, in general? | 22:49 |
| genehacker | I'm not exactly sure | 22:51 |
| genehacker | an apple could be considered capable of replication though | 22:53 |
| kanzure_ | surely you know what a lego is | 22:55 |
| genehacker | shaped forms of plastic? | 22:55 |
| fenn | i mean "apple falls from tree" as an oversimplified way of seeing self-assembly | 22:55 |
| fenn | like these "self assembling" robots that are basically just two legos snapping together | 22:56 |
| genehacker | if a machine can make itself from parts, it might be able to make the machines to make the parts | 22:56 |
| fenn | lego == interchangeable/compatible part, designed for disassembly | 22:58 |
| genehacker | ok | 22:58 |
| genehacker | it is slightly interoperable too | 22:59 |
| fenn | interoperable with what? | 22:59 |
| genehacker | please define interoperable | 22:59 |
| fenn | by "compatible" i mean you can swap vastly different parts for the same general function, like 3 flat plates for one brick | 23:00 |
| genehacker | ok | 23:00 |
| fenn | that's not the best definition but whatever | 23:00 |
| fenn | there's a "system" | 23:00 |
| fenn | the system supports the maximum amount of diversity with the minimum set of parts | 23:00 |
| genehacker | lego parts aren't the best thing to use for making a replicator, they aren't adjustable | 23:01 |
| fenn | anyone used any good FOSS OCR software? | 23:01 |
| kanzure_ | tesseract. | 23:02 |
| fenn | and it actually works? like, feed it hi-res scans and it turns into text | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | I fed it paper scans and it puked. but others swear by it. | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | paper scans from old journals. | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | bad fonts, bad paper, generally bad quality | 23:03 |
| fenn | hmm | 23:03 |
| genehacker | you might ask Kurzweil, I believe he is an expert in that field | 23:04 |
| fenn | no i'm just being lazy | 23:04 |
| fenn | dont want to try out 50 different packages that all suck just to find out that there's nothing good out there | 23:04 |
| fenn | if you have it set up and ready to go, would you mind try running tesseract on: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/kscan_0005.png | 23:06 |
| fenn | (3.4MB) | 23:06 |
| kanzure_ | I don't. | 23:07 |
| fenn | ok i will bother with it some other time | 23:08 |
| -!- genehacker changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: making a universal part assembling machine | 23:09 | |
| genehacker | interesting what is the scan from? | 23:09 |
| fenn | structure in nature is a strategy for design, and why is it interesting? | 23:10 |
| fenn | most boring page of the book | 23:10 |
| kanzure_ | oh btw I get to go back to school :) | 23:11 |
| genehacker | nice | 23:11 |
| genehacker | so can we get back to designing that filter? | 23:11 |
| genehacker | well the page is boring, the book seems otherwise | 23:12 |
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| kanzure_ | yes, but not tonight. | 23:12 |
| genehacker | ok | 23:13 |
| genehacker | point made | 23:13 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 23:13 |
| kanzure_ | fenn where were you going with all that and gene. | 23:13 |
| jk4930 | fellows, i've to leave now. wish you a good night. | 23:14 |
| fenn | i was trying to get him to see the necessity of something like SKDB | 23:14 |
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| -!- jk4930 [n=jk@p54BCC32F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #hplusroadmap ["Konversation terminated!"] | 23:15 | |
| genehacker | I still don't see it's necessity, sure it would help and all, but we could live without it | 23:15 |
| fenn | i'm not so sure | 23:16 |
| fenn | seems humanity has passed the point where we could lose any particular technology and not go extinct | 23:16 |
| genehacker | I don't see your point | 23:17 |
| fenn | er.. so we need to solidify our foundations, by examining the cracks first of all | 23:17 |
| fenn | secondly by building new foundations | 23:17 |
| fenn | for example, why am i stuck on earth? | 23:18 |
| genehacker | gravity | 23:19 |
| fenn | at least in a space habitat there is an easily traceable global dependency tree | 23:19 |
| fenn | ecosystems and weather are textbook examples of complexity | 23:19 |
| genehacker | ??? | 23:20 |
| fenn | nevermind i'm not talking clearly | 23:20 |
| fenn | there's like 50 steps between each line and I dont feel like holding your hand through all of that | 23:20 |
| fenn | oh come on.. tesseract can't read .png files? | 23:23 |
| kanzure_ | convert magic? | 23:23 |
| fenn | yeah but it's just a stupid pain in the ass that shouldnt be there | 23:23 |
| kanzure_ | bug patch to the rescue. seriously, "if file extension is .png, then call convert" -> let the bastards make a more elegant fix | 23:23 |
| kanzure_ | since you're going to be calling convert anyway, might as well just call it a bugfix | 23:24 |
| * fenn knew this was going to suck | 23:24 | |
| * fenn grumbles.. it has to be named .tif not .tiff | 23:28 | |
| genehacker | you know Kanzure I got an idea for solving our spiral generator problem | 23:29 |
| genehacker | i have a B/W image of the outline of the membraneless filter | 23:30 |
| kanzure_ | my generator almost works. | 23:31 |
| genehacker | we could write some code to make triangles from the black pixels | 23:32 |
| kanzure_ | I wish there was an option on my voice mail to "send by email" instead of " saving for 14 days until it will be deleted" .. | 23:57 |
| kanzure_ | what good is an archive that prunes on 14 day cycles .. | 23:57 |
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