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| samrose | hey kanzure | 09:36 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | hi | 09:36 |
| samrose | Marcin is asking me about recommendations for open source CAD software. So, although I have preferences, I thought I would ask around and give him multiple perspectives | 09:37 |
| samrose | what do you use/recommend? | 09:37 |
| kanzure | BRLCAD. :-) | 09:37 |
| samrose | 3D CAD software, that is | 09:37 |
| kanzure | http://brlcad.org/ | 09:37 |
| samrose | any good resources that you can point novices to about learning BRL-CAD? | 09:38 |
| kanzure | There's a lot of good tutorials on that website. | 09:38 |
| kanzure | Also, there's #brlcad on freenode. | 09:38 |
| samrose | just found this, too http://gpwiki.org/index.php/BRL-CAD:Tutorials | 09:39 |
| samrose | gracias kanzure | 09:43 |
| kanzure | There's more, but I can never remember how to spell advocado. | 09:44 |
| kanzure | The #brlcad folks get kind of ranty about all of the other F/OSS CAD systems not contributing code to BRLCAD.. | 09:44 |
| samrose | Does that thing work?: http://avocado-cad.sourceforge.net/ | 09:52 |
| kanzure | Not much. I tried it out a little bit, don't remember. fenn might know. | 09:55 |
| kanzure | it might be biased, but #brlcad will know :/ | 09:55 |
| samrose | ok, thnx | 09:57 |
| samrose | well, go avoCADo up and running, will check it out too | 10:01 |
| samrose | not much to it yet. | 10:03 |
| kanzure | yeah, if you need help compiling brlcad- | 10:04 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/brlcad.html | 10:04 |
| samrose | I have brlcad compiled on one pc | 10:27 |
| samrose | not on new laptop yet though | 10:28 |
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| wrldpc | anybody in here make instrumental music? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | I know a few who do. | 13:36 |
| kanzure | What's up? | 13:36 |
| genehacker | want to start a band? | 14:01 |
| genehacker | a software band or circuit bent band? | 14:01 |
| genehacker | Kanzure turn the bible into horrible horrible music | 14:02 |
| wrldpc | i'll rap | 14:17 |
| wrldpc | how does one pronounce kanzure? | 14:17 |
| kanzure | I'm not sure it's pronouncable | 14:17 |
| genehacker | can zur | 14:43 |
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| kanzure3 | http://www.ldraw.org/Article48.html | 14:48 |
| kanzure3 | ^ metadata stuff for lego parts library | 14:49 |
| kanzure3 | http://www.ldraw.org/Article131.html intro to creating build instructions (but with images) | 14:49 |
| kanzure3 | Building Instruction Images (BILs) | 14:49 |
| kanzure3 | hrm.. | 14:49 |
| kanzure3 | http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0362/ | 15:38 |
| kanzure | Why aren't the man pages generated from function signatures? A significant portion of man includes the common C header files for just about every useful function. | 15:45 |
| kanzure | in fact, isn't this what the .lib files that the gnu linker deals with are for? | 15:48 |
| kanzure3 | http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1060/print ELF dissection. | 15:59 |
| genehacker | so you're trying to find a new way to write instructions? | 16:19 |
| kanzure3 | no, this would be for interoperability. | 16:36 |
| kanzure3 | when a compiler compiles your program, each function has a "signature" that describes what it wants as input and what it gives as output | 16:36 |
| kanzure3 | so I'm just wondering about just using a large registry of these signatures paired to compiled binaries | 16:36 |
| genehacker | ok | 16:42 |
| genehacker | so you want to write instructions for anything? | 16:43 |
| kanzure3 | for the packaging format? yes, it would be nice to have a computational representation of instructions | 16:43 |
| genehacker | I am a bit lost on what you are doing | 17:13 |
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| genehacker | Fenn, UAVs might be cheaper than cars | 18:11 |
| genehacker | or fedex delivery vans | 18:13 |
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| genehacker | http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=01656362 | 18:48 |
| genehacker | check it out | 18:48 |
| kanzure | ? | 18:48 |
| genehacker | it's about the UAV delivery system me and Fenn have been talking about | 18:49 |
| kanzure3 | "A fixed-wing aircraft for hovering in caves, tunnels, and buildings" | 18:49 |
| genehacker | yeah | 18:49 |
| kanzure3 | ":Micro air vehicles (MAVs) are small bird-sized aircraft with applications in reconnaissance, search-and-rescue, airborne agent and pathogen detection, and target acquisition. Fixed-wing MAVs cannot hover and thus, are not able to fly in tight, enclosed spaces. Rotary-wing platforms can hover but are limited by endurance. This paper presents a fixed-wing MAV with a secondary flight mode (i.e. hovering) allowing it to fly in caves, tunnels, and buildings. The sensing and control system used to achieve autonomous hovering is also described. This is, to the best of our knowledge, the first documented success of autonomously hovering a fixed-wing MAV in the open literature" | 18:49 |
| genehacker | it can avoid crashing into things with optic flow sensors | 18:50 |
| genehacker | in an urban environment | 18:50 |
| genehacker | you could retrofit an off the shelf RC plane with off the shelf sensors and controllers, set it up to hover real low and drop a package to deliver it | 18:52 |
| genehacker | though the customer might have to provide the weight of the package | 18:57 |
| genehacker | dang plane cost about $300, Inertial measurement unit cost $1495 | 18:59 |
| kanzure | gyro? | 19:00 |
| genehacker | you could call it that | 19:00 |
| genehacker | something that tells the plane it's orientation | 19:01 |
| kanzure | oops, wrong device | 19:01 |
| genehacker | but things like that are cheaper nowadays | 19:01 |
| genehacker | "It weighs | 19:01 |
| genehacker | just 30 grams and is comprised of three triaxial accelerometers | 19:01 |
| genehacker | and angular rate gyros as well as three | 19:01 |
| genehacker | orthogonal magnetometers." | 19:01 |
| genehacker | it has gyros | 19:02 |
| genehacker | wonder if a wiimote could be used? | 19:02 |
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| genehacker | I wonder how the wiimote figures out orientation | 20:27 |
| kanzure | it doesn't | 20:28 |
| kanzure | there are sensors that you set up on your wii | 20:28 |
| kanzure | stereo. | 20:28 |
| kanzure | triangulation. | 20:29 |
| kanzure | "black magic" | 20:29 |
| genehacker | how doe it do it when you hold it like a steering wheel and it can't see the sensor bar? | 20:29 |
| kanzure | there's a sensor bar? | 20:29 |
| genehacker | I knew about the triangulation | 20:30 |
| genehacker | it's not a sensor bar, it's infrared LEDs set a constant distance apart from each other | 20:30 |
| genehacker | do you have a Wii? | 20:30 |
| kanzure | no | 20:30 |
| genehacker | my parents have one | 20:31 |
| genehacker | I heard the wiimote has tilt sensors in it | 20:31 |
| genehacker | one of the add ons for it, has a 2 axis angular rate sensor | 20:32 |
| genehacker | interesting, for small quantities of accelerometers, it's cheaper to hack them from a wiimote than buy them from the manufacturer | 20:33 |
| kanzure | I'm bored. | 20:33 |
| genehacker | they cost $60 individually | 20:33 |
| genehacker | the Iphone has fairly accurate tilt sensors hmm.... | 20:35 |
| genehacker | http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/28/iphones-tilt-sensor-hacked/ | 20:36 |
| genehacker | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRcld5aAN2E | 20:37 |
| kanzure | it's odd how getopt focuses so much on parsing rather than defining | 20:37 |
| kanzure | I guess parsing is what the programmers needed at the time more than anything | 20:37 |
| genehacker | youtube's sound remove music thing is way too strict | 20:37 |
| kanzure | eh? | 20:37 |
| genehacker | shit, sound was off | 20:38 |
| genehacker | I failed | 20:38 |
| genehacker | so you know arduino? | 20:48 |
| kanzure3 | yes | 20:48 |
| kanzure3 | is just c. | 20:50 |
| genehacker | could I use arduino in a UAV? | 20:50 |
| genehacker | something with a realtime control system | 20:50 |
| kanzure3 | that depends entirely on how long you're willing to wait between sense-process-react | 20:51 |
| kanzure3 | physically, an arduino is small enough if that's what you mean | 20:51 |
| genehacker | not long | 20:52 |
| genehacker | I want to be able to have a UAV fly to a site, go up into a prop hang above a drop zone target, fly down to about a foot above the target and drop a small package and go back to base to refuel and pick up another package | 20:56 |
| genehacker | you can use arduino on a UAV | 20:57 |
| kanzure3 | right, if it is ok to fly blind even better | 20:57 |
| genehacker | well, something like this wouldn't fly blind it would use something like optic flow sensors, sonar, or lidar to avoid obstacles | 20:58 |
| kanzure3 | as long as you can wire up all of the devices into the board, that's fine. | 20:59 |
| genehacker | a delivery UAV might also have to have a video camera on it sending a video feed to a human to check on things | 21:01 |
| kanzure3 | don't know how much bandwidth the arduino can handle, but you might as well just pair the video separately on its own radio freq or something | 21:02 |
| genehacker | that's what you do | 21:02 |
| genehacker | hmmm... I wonder how you could monitor the video on a bunch of UAVs | 21:03 |
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| genehacker | I estimate something like a delivery UAV should cost about $1600 | 22:01 |
| genehacker | and that it should achieve break even at about 40 deliveries at best | 22:09 |
| genehacker | that's pretty good | 22:09 |
| fenn | $40 delivery is pretty steep | 22:23 |
| fenn | today i drove 12 miles to get a tiny 8mm rubber disc (shutoff valve washer) | 22:23 |
| kanzure | don't you feel stupid. | 22:23 |
| fenn | no, not really | 22:24 |
| kanzure | isn't it inefficient though | 22:24 |
| fenn | yes of course | 22:24 |
| fenn | i'll feel stupid when i go to put it in and it doesn't fit | 22:24 |
| fenn | ;) | 22:24 |
| kanzure | ah. | 22:24 |
| kanzure | so, I just thought I had this wonderful burst of inspiration | 22:24 |
| genehacker | no it's $20 per delivery | 22:24 |
| kanzure | where I'd just put each getopt option into a separate file and then do a compatibility matrix table | 22:25 |
| genehacker | it's not for rubber disks | 22:25 |
| kanzure | where the rows would be each option, and each column is anoption | 22:25 |
| kanzure | and then a binary value at the x,y coord for compatibility (i.e. if one option can't be used with aonther) | 22:25 |
| genehacker | it would take 40 deliveries to break even at about 200 | 22:25 |
| genehacker | it would take 40 deliveries to break even at about $20 per delivery | 22:25 |
| kanzure | but this doesn't work for multiple option combination logic stuff (i.e., -x and -y and -z but not -y and -c) | 22:25 |
| genehacker | erm $40 per delivery | 22:26 |
| genehacker | that | 22:26 |
| genehacker | is about the price for very fast delivery with a local courier service for a small item | 22:27 |
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| genehacker | fast delivery as in under 2 hrs | 22:35 |
| fenn | I can get a pizza for less than $40 | 22:46 |
| fenn | kanzure this sounds like something one would write in haskell | 22:48 |
| kanzure | I've never been motivated to learn haskell. what's so special about it? | 22:48 |
| kanzure | I hear of these them there 'atom' thingies | 22:48 |
| fenn | well they use lots of annoying mathy words | 22:49 |
| fenn | dealing with large sets is sort of the basic idiom of the language | 22:49 |
| fenn | or at least that's my foggy recollection of my primitive understanding of it | 22:49 |
| genehacker | you wouldn't want to deliver pizza with a UAV fenn, unless your life depended on getting pizza | 23:01 |
| genehacker | but a more reasonable price would be $20 | 23:01 |
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| genehacker | break even happens at 80 deliveries | 23:02 |
| genehacker | which seems fairly reasonable to me | 23:03 |
| fenn | huh. integrated circuits really are "magic crystals" | 23:04 |
| genehacker | huh? | 23:05 |
| genehacker | I guess they are | 23:05 |
| fenn | i was just looking at wireless chips on sparkfun, "These are the latest gems from Laipac Tech" and started thinking | 23:05 |
| genehacker | diode lasers are really magic crystals | 23:07 |
| genehacker | diode pumped solid state lasers are even more magical | 23:07 |
| fenn | er, what's the difference? | 23:07 |
| genehacker | diode pumped lasers are a diode laser pumping a special crystal setup | 23:09 |
| fenn | so they're more crystally, not more magical | 23:10 |
| genehacker | hmmm... if I made a super-fast UAV capable of 30 minutes or less delivery times, then I might be able to charge $50 per delivery and breakeven in a day | 23:10 |
| genehacker | well they're pretty magical | 23:10 |
| genehacker | it's like several crystals | 23:10 |
| fenn | oh, speaking of optics.. | 23:11 |
| genehacker | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode-pumped_solid-state_laser | 23:11 |
| fenn | i was wondering why we dont see any mobile head up displays that use fiber optic cable to pipe the image to your eye/glasses | 23:11 |
| genehacker | you'd need a thick cable | 23:11 |
| fenn | like a laparoscope or borescope, they sell for $200 at harbor freight | 23:12 |
| genehacker | link? | 23:12 |
| fenn | http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91565 | 23:12 |
| fenn | er, but in reverse | 23:12 |
| fenn | no big eyepiece or anything | 23:13 |
| genehacker | resolution I guess | 23:13 |
| genehacker | price | 23:13 |
| fenn | you could do much higher resolution than tiny LCD displays | 23:13 |
| fenn | or do you mean in the optics sense | 23:13 |
| fenn | and $200 isnt that much, especially considering the parts cost would be much elss | 23:14 |
| fenn | *less | 23:14 |
| genehacker | resolution is how many fibers you have | 23:14 |
| fenn | are you sure about that? | 23:14 |
| genehacker | for the most part | 23:15 |
| fenn | can't you pipe a whole image down one fat cable? | 23:15 |
| genehacker | maybe if you have some weird adaptive optics at the end | 23:15 |
| fenn | why adaptive? | 23:15 |
| genehacker | to compensate for distortion from reflecting in the cable | 23:16 |
| genehacker | I don't know | 23:16 |
| genehacker | you might look into it | 23:16 |
| fenn | what if i had some kind of multiply jointed periscope | 23:16 |
| fenn | actually it only really needs to go like 5 inches | 23:16 |
| fenn | if the whole setup is compact enough to fit in like a hat or whatever | 23:17 |
| fenn | i'm just trying to work around the "big thing clamped to your face" idea | 23:17 |
| genehacker | you really need to use one of those DMD chips | 23:17 |
| fenn | yes | 23:17 |
| genehacker | you know a chip covered with a whole bunch of tiny mirrors? | 23:18 |
| fenn | I came up with this idea years ago | 23:18 |
| genehacker | you could get high resolution with that | 23:18 |
| fenn | DLP chips are still expensive.. | 23:18 |
| fenn | wah | 23:18 |
| genehacker | this one company was able to make a really tiny high res display out of a DLP chip | 23:19 |
| fenn | who? | 23:19 |
| genehacker | also made it display color too, using reflected sunlight | 23:19 |
| genehacker | I forgot, it was a while ago | 23:19 |
| fenn | and how tiny is tiny? | 23:19 |
| genehacker | as big as the chip is | 23:19 |
| fenn | i have some of these chips, they range from 0.5" to 1" diagonal | 23:20 |
| fenn | (no docs unfortunately) | 23:20 |
| genehacker | http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13751 | 23:21 |
| fenn | yes, that | 23:21 |
| genehacker | $5 | 23:21 |
| fenn | the connector from the chip to the flex circuit is removed | 23:21 |
| fenn | there are smaller ones that are still whole | 23:21 |
| fenn | these guys http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G15426 | 23:22 |
| genehacker | you can get a special connector for things like that, so it mounts on a PCB | 23:22 |
| fenn | I love how they give me all sorts of documentation on where they got them, what the part number is, etc </sarcasm> | 23:22 |
| fenn | the connector is easy, but i dont know what the protocol is or anything | 23:23 |
| genehacker | I don't know what you could do about the scratches | 23:23 |
| fenn | if it works it'd be good enough for me | 23:23 |
| fenn | there is a glass or plastic plate over the actual chip | 23:23 |
| genehacker | then you have a really annoying scratch going across your field of vision | 23:24 |
| fenn | i have a 'really annoying' red line going down my monitor, i dont seem to notice it | 23:24 |
| genehacker | you can't replace the plate, unless you have mad skills | 23:24 |
| genehacker | ok | 23:24 |
| genehacker | you're good then | 23:24 |
| genehacker | what's the part number? | 23:24 |
| fenn | ok please tell me what signals to send to the chip and on what pins | 23:25 |
| fenn | no part number | 23:25 |
| fenn | one sec, i have a hi res image, coming up | 23:25 |
| genehacker | any number at all | 23:25 |
| genehacker | look at it under the microscope there might be a number | 23:25 |
| genehacker | or a datagrid | 23:26 |
| genehacker | dang I forgot how this one tiny LED grid I had worked | 23:27 |
| genehacker | http://focus.ti.com/download/dlpdmd/2503686.pdf | 23:30 |
| genehacker | check out these dox | 23:30 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/little-mems.jpg | 23:31 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/big-mems.jpg | 23:31 |
| genehacker | that's far from a slight scratch | 23:32 |
| fenn | here's a picture someone else took http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/mems.jpg | 23:33 |
| fenn | i dont even know if they are from the same company tho | 23:33 |
| fenn | oh the white crap is just dust | 23:34 |
| genehacker | big mems looks easier, more pins, more likely you can individually control each mirror | 23:34 |
| fenn | i dont want to individually control each mirror | 23:34 |
| fenn | anyway it certainly doesnt have 500 or 1000 pins or whatever would be needed to multiplex each mirror | 23:35 |
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| genehacker | it forms a grid I think | 23:37 |
| genehacker | you might get your self a USB microscope, an ultralow power supply, and some damn small test leads | 23:38 |
| genehacker | and see if you can get any response | 23:39 |
| genehacker | have fun | 23:41 |
| fenn | i was going to just shine an led or laser on it and look at the reflection | 23:41 |
| genehacker | good idea | 23:41 |
| fenn | or just look at it, i bet you could see it change color or something | 23:41 |
| genehacker | you see fenn, if you figure out how to control a DMD chip | 23:42 |
| genehacker | then that means we can do lots of cool things | 23:42 |
| fenn | geomatec's website doesnt say anything about mirror arrays (lots of laser scanning and lenses stuff tho) | 23:42 |
| genehacker | on of them is do maskless lithography | 23:42 |
| genehacker | http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800416404_1034362_NT_a5fd45ee.HTM | 23:43 |
| fenn | am i supposed to be able to read that? | 23:43 |
| genehacker | maskless lithography means we can make our own microchips, do massive DNA synthesis, and make high res 3d printers | 23:43 |
| genehacker | you can't? | 23:44 |
| genehacker | oh well | 23:44 |
| fenn | Please login or register with us to view this article | 23:44 |
| genehacker | oh well | 23:44 |
| fenn | any ideas for collimating the output from an LCD into a fiber optic cable? and doing it in a compact manner | 23:45 |
| fenn | so ideally i'd have the LCD panel in a case with the fiber coming out coplanar with the panel | 23:45 |
| fenn | is there such a thing as a fresnel prism? | 23:47 |
| fenn | ooo magical internet: http://bencraven.org.uk/prism_specs.html | 23:48 |
| genehacker | a fresnel prism | 23:50 |
| genehacker | Fresnel is a bunch of prisms | 23:51 |
| genehacker | sounds like you need lenticular 3d viewing sheets | 23:52 |
| fenn | maybe i can use an lcd backlight | 23:52 |
| fenn | heh http://www.fresnelprism.com/ | 23:53 |
| fenn | somehow i dont think it's quite right | 23:53 |
| fenn | well i guess i could stack them, but it might end up just as thick as using a mirror | 23:54 |
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