| --- Day changed Tue Feb 10 2009 | ||
| -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has quit [] | 00:00 | |
| -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 00:01 | |
| kanzure3_ | (12:13:33 AM) David Nunez: I think ONE person could easily operate as a business within the context of a fablab as a separate entity from the space itself, pay their fair share, contribute to the community, etc AND make a decent personal income. | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure3_ | (12:13:51 AM) David Nunez: I think that person could also hire members of the fablab. | 00:14 |
| fenn | given that person has experience running a successful business | 00:14 |
| fenn | a lot of people have to flail around and screw up 5 or 6 businesses before they figure it out | 00:15 |
| kanzure3_ | separation of fablab and consulting gigs. | 00:15 |
| fenn | yes, but if the gigs fail the fablab can't pay rent | 00:15 |
| fenn | so it's not totally separate | 00:15 |
| kanzure3_ | payoff ratio should be high enough? | 00:15 |
| kanzure3_ | hrm | 00:15 |
| fenn | i dont know, never done "real" consulting | 00:15 |
| kanzure3_ | first edition fablab mechmate kit might sell on ebay for a ridiculous sum, maybe that would be enough for a while :p | 00:16 |
| fenn | nor do i know what sort of businesses exist in austin | 00:16 |
| fenn | yeah maybe in a million years | 00:16 |
| kanzure3_ | austin is like denver but less high. | 00:16 |
| kanzure3_ | also a little bit like madison, wisconsin | 00:16 |
| fenn | um. so lots of biotech labs? (thats all i know about denver since my aunt/uncle work at national jewish hospital) | 00:17 |
| fenn | and an airport! | 00:17 |
| kanzure3_ | there's supposedly a good number of biotech startups, but we're talking super-million IP thingies that I'm not really sure are doing anything | 00:17 |
| fenn | well they have more money than sense, that's good | 00:17 |
| fenn | i need a manager | 00:18 |
| fenn | or an "agent" i guess | 00:18 |
| kanzure3_ | didn't I say that the other day? except for myself? | 00:18 |
| fenn | i might have given you the idea earlier :P | 00:18 |
| kanzure3_ | no sir, I think it is I who gave you that particular idea. | 00:19 |
| fenn | harrrumph | 00:21 |
| fenn | no i got the idea while talking to my roomate about how it takes a certain set of skills to get hired | 00:21 |
| gene | ahem kanzure, you know what taq polymerase is? | 00:27 |
| kanzure | yes | 00:28 |
| gene | and how profitable it was | 00:28 |
| fenn | is the patent up yet? | 00:29 |
| davidnunez | I think my point (from watching some other spaces try the "we'll consult to pay the rent" approach) is that it turns out consulting involves a lot of overhead (finding gigs, servicing contracts, etc) that take away from the core purpose of a fablab | 00:30 |
| fenn | davidnunez: i want to make fablabs, ship 'em out by the dozens | 00:30 |
| fenn | because nobody is doing that | 00:31 |
| davidnunez | I think getting a group of people together to build a space is enough of a major job w/o the overhead of running a business AS A GROUP. | 00:31 |
| davidnunez | However, with a subtle shift in group dynamics... this may work. | 00:31 |
| davidnunez | For example, I think an entrepreneur could pay his share of the fablab rent through a small product that he develops using fablab resources. | 00:32 |
| kanzure | sure, les is totally in on that. | 00:32 |
| gene | yup patent is up | 00:33 |
| davidnunez | so you have a loose affiliation of builders. some are freelancing... some have day jobs... some are designing products... at the end of the month, though, everyone is responsible for producing their fare share of $X | 00:33 |
| fenn | a fab-coop | 00:33 |
| fenn | or something | 00:33 |
| davidnunez | nice. | 00:33 |
| davidnunez | I think nycresistor acts exactly this way. | 00:34 |
| kanzure | interestingly enough, pinkarmy is also a coop. just using more of the personalized biotech stuff as the coop open source goodness. | 00:34 |
| kanzure | nycresistor is just a sowing circle IIRC | 00:34 |
| fenn | how does resistor pay for their space? | 00:34 |
| fenn | duh. nevermind | 00:35 |
| davidnunez | The core members each provide their fair share. They also hold fundraising events and classes... but individuals in the group produce those... (and by offering those services, they are in essence paying their share) | 00:35 |
| davidnunez | But if you scan their member list, they each are doing their own thing for the majority of their time... is my point. | 00:36 |
| davidnunez | ...and are heavy hitters in their own right. They are less a sewing circle than they are a cult of personalities. but they have stuff in their space that I would love to get my hands on. | 00:36 |
| davidnunez | I don't know how open their membership is. | 00:37 |
| davidnunez | I suspect it's tough to get in. which is another way it might differ from my understanding of what a fablab might be | 00:37 |
| kanzure | we need to convince les to "lock in" on the core team and do membership like that. but he also wants to rent out the space to "whoever the hell can help pay the rent"- maybe we can have him allow priority to fablab-cohorts. | 00:38 |
| fenn | depends what you mean "get in" | 00:38 |
| fenn | access to the space and entitlement are two different things | 00:38 |
| gene | hmmm... perhaps we could set up a bunch of fablabs around the country and pool resources | 00:41 |
| davidnunez | that make sense. So I'm in Boston. I've been to the Fab Lab in south boston. My experience is that it's actually really closed. There are open lab nights where you could, theoretically, get in there for a few minutes and lasercut something. So, from that perspective, it's easy to "get in." However, I've met lots of people now, that have all said, "actually, the lab is open all the time... you just have | 00:41 |
| kanzure | already happening, gene. | 00:41 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: cutoff at "you just have" | 00:41 |
| gene | dang | 00:41 |
| kanzure | gene: what's bad about that? | 00:42 |
| davidnunez | ... you just have to know the right labbie who will vouch for you... and you have to have gone to MIT" | 00:42 |
| gene | how much does it cost to laser cut something? | 00:42 |
| gene | just electricity? | 00:42 |
| davidnunez | free. | 00:42 |
| kanzure | :) | 00:42 |
| davidnunez | right. | 00:42 |
| gene | 3d printer usage? | 00:42 |
| kanzure | heh, I don't think you get it gene | 00:42 |
| davidnunez | I think you have to account for a per-hour cost on a lasercutter because the laser diode goes out after a certain number of hours and needs replacement | 00:43 |
| gene | I thought they used tubes instead of diodes | 00:43 |
| davidnunez | Not sure. I think you have to pay for material to use. | 00:43 |
| kanzure | so, it's highly "select", it seems, davidnunez | 00:43 |
| davidnunez | gene: diodes/tubes.. whatever needs replacing | 00:43 |
| kanzure | I guess that's how they are able to maintain that high quality vibe or whatever it is that is sustaining htem | 00:43 |
| fenn | <- sick of hearing about laser cutters | 00:44 |
| kanzure | although this can happen in a place like boston very easily because of the large number of people | 00:44 |
| kanzure | what about in a place like austin? if we were going to limit it to people like fenn, we'd just have les or something | 00:44 |
| gene | well you did go to maker faire here kanzure... | 00:44 |
| kanzure | meh, "popular science" crowd. | 00:45 |
| fenn | i dont see the point in limiting access to the space to me and les | 00:45 |
| davidnunez | the thing about fablabs is that they are supposed to be "open" for the community and in fact should be geared towards the very lowest skillset | 00:45 |
| kanzure | and the fablab people that were there were already mentioned (i.e., alec and friends) | 00:45 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: yes, but there still has to be a "captain" at the helm that is maintaining the vibe/culture | 00:45 |
| davidnunez | so that's disappointing about the boston fab lab since it seems to operate counter to purpose | 00:45 |
| kanzure | otherwise it would just be a sowing circle, as I said :) | 00:45 |
| fenn | resistor is a sewing circle because they arent using the space to support the space and other endeavors | 00:45 |
| fenn | if it's just a hobby it will look like a hobby and be bound to hobby considerations | 00:46 |
| kanzure | sewing. | 00:46 |
| kanzure | right, for us this is a bit more than a hobby- maybe we're taking this a bit too seriously? i doubt it | 00:46 |
| davidnunez | fenn: Laser cutter is the one tool that I do not have that I would gladly pay a monthly fee to access. as it is, I'm seriously just considering dropping the 6-10K needed to get one | 00:46 |
| fenn | on the other hand, if it's a business you make more excuses to buy fancy toys :) | 00:46 |
| fenn | bah | 00:46 |
| gene | same here | 00:46 |
| fenn | people who want laser cutters just dont have experience with real machine tools | 00:46 |
| gene | I wonder, could you get advertizers to sponser a fablab? | 00:47 |
| kanzure | what? | 00:47 |
| fenn | yes, but you'd have to do stuff to get their logo in the spotlight or whatever | 00:47 |
| gene | seems impractical | 00:47 |
| fenn | so that's not something to do from the start | 00:48 |
| davidnunez | fenn: Well, ya know. You haven't seen my work. If you can pull off the intricate cuts I need on paper and plastic with normal machine tools at the high rate of production I require, then I bow to your skills. | 00:48 |
| kanzure | anyway, what I'm worried about happening is fenn moving down here and then James Choate applies voodoo magic and everything goes to hell | 00:48 |
| kanzure | I think les is more serious about that than to let that happen though | 00:48 |
| fenn | davidnunez: link? | 00:48 |
| gene | perhaps selling lasercut goods? | 00:48 |
| kanzure | but it would be nice to have a bit more of a guarantee | 00:48 |
| kanzure | gene: kits have already been discussed. | 00:48 |
| gene | lasercutter is free materials are not | 00:48 |
| fenn | hm. is ponoko's facility in CA running? | 00:49 |
| gene | I am not quite sure | 00:49 |
| kanzure | I'll ask davidtenhave next time I catch him online | 00:49 |
| fenn | local ponoko service would be the bomb | 00:49 |
| kanzure | david would support that. | 00:49 |
| kanzure | (david-from-ponoko) | 00:49 |
| gene | hmmm... | 00:49 |
| kanzure | well, maybe | 00:49 |
| fenn | shipping from NZ.. puh leez | 00:49 |
| kanzure | he's already into hardware packaging, but since he's into the business, local ponoko might kill his model, dunno | 00:50 |
| gene | a local ponoko seems fit for austin | 00:50 |
| fenn | well, we can start a competitor then | 00:50 |
| gene | all those boutique(or whatever the hell they are called) shops could start selling lazer cut necklaces and shit | 00:50 |
| kanzure | right, we've been over this stuff a hundred times already | 00:50 |
| fenn | i'd rather franchise than have to build market share | 00:51 |
| fenn | but that's just me | 00:51 |
| gene | fenn around here in austin, they have these shops | 00:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: resist gene. don't be drawn in. | 00:52 |
| fenn | artsy fartsy shops? | 00:52 |
| gene | yup you guessed it | 00:52 |
| fenn | yeah i get the idea | 00:52 |
| gene | but alas | 00:52 |
| fenn | our horde of minions | 00:52 |
| fenn | the first time is free, kid | 00:52 |
| gene | having to lasercut necklaces might mean not being able to use the lasercutter | 00:53 |
| kanzure | the whole point is that we'd know how to build a second lasercutter | 00:53 |
| kanzure | yawn. | 00:53 |
| kanzure | problem solved. | 00:53 |
| fenn | i dont think it's feasible to build a lasercutter for less than you can buy one | 00:53 |
| kanzure | I haven't looked into it yet | 00:53 |
| kanzure | what are we talking about? | 00:54 |
| gene | yeah zinc selenide mirrors aren't cheap | 00:54 |
| fenn | $2500 for a 45W system ready to go | 00:54 |
| fenn | now, that's tiny | 00:54 |
| gene | fab lab funding I presume | 00:54 |
| fenn | no just a quick google search | 00:54 |
| kanzure | fablab funding is taken care of, les and I have enough of a clue to make that happen | 00:55 |
| davidnunez | fenn: link to that one please | 00:55 |
| kanzure | don't worry about that. | 00:55 |
| fenn | http://www.hflaser.com/Mini-Laser-Engraver.html | 00:55 |
| kanzure | but the issue is that what if | 00:55 |
| kanzure | (1) somebody without the fablab core vision comes along and offers a large enough sum of money to sufficiently distract operations? | 00:55 |
| kanzure | and (2) the original vision isn't being followed through on? | 00:55 |
| kanzure | if fenn was to come down here and for #2 to happen, he'd be a very unhappy individual I presume | 00:55 |
| gene | maybe we should write a constitution | 00:56 |
| kanzure | how would that help | 00:56 |
| fenn | google for "45W laser" and it'll be in the ads on the right | 00:56 |
| fenn | it depends what #1 is | 00:56 |
| gene | I guess it might not | 00:56 |
| kanzure | #1 would be marc fawzi. | 00:57 |
| kanzure | heh | 00:57 |
| fenn | i'm not terribly excited about james choate's "founders will have ultimate authority for all eternity and no responsibilities" | 00:57 |
| gene | if we accrete a large enough community that shares the vision, that community will resist change of the vision | 00:57 |
| fenn | if fawzi came down and did something real i'd be pleasantly surprised | 00:57 |
| gene | fawzi might be a problem | 00:58 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: do you know les well? | 00:59 |
| davidnunez | he and I spent some time together when he tried to start the fab lab BEFORE techshop discussions | 00:59 |
| kanzure | from my own encounters with him, he's exactly in tune with us | 00:59 |
| fenn | in bloomington we have this "co-op grocery" which is the only progressive thing happening in town. unfortunately they actually aren't progressive at all, they just sell health food at exorbitant prices and pay their employees minimum wage | 00:59 |
| kanzure | so would it be reasonable to plan that he's going to keep with these ideas? | 00:59 |
| davidnunez | he's careful, measured, business-oriented, but has little tolerance for people not getting things done. | 01:00 |
| fenn | but it's a fun environment and they have slick marketing so people love to work there and the yuppies lap it up | 01:00 |
| gene | yikes fenn | 01:00 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: would he be one to go back on his word if, say, I happened to be the answer to his prayers? heh' | 01:00 |
| kanzure | or something like that | 01:00 |
| kanzure | this is hard to formulate into words. | 01:00 |
| * fenn forgot where he was going with that | 01:00 | |
| fenn | kanzure for president! | 01:01 |
| kanzure | hm? | 01:01 |
| davidnunez | I think Les operates with more integrity than I see in most people. | 01:01 |
| kanzure | interesting | 01:01 |
| davidnunez | Incidentally, for the record. I could care less how you put together your fab lab.. how it's funded... where the tools come from, whether or not a laser cutter is useful to you. I'm more interested in engaging after you're up and running. My interest right now is about the "So What?" ... and how communities can solve their own problems through resources like fab labs. | 01:03 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: so, fenn might move down here into austin just to work on this project "full-time". can you see the situation that this might create? | 01:03 |
| gene | the reason I want to have a fablab is to just build stuff | 01:03 |
| kanzure | gene seems to be off in his own little dimension here | 01:04 |
| kanzure | but yes, building stuff is of course good. | 01:04 |
| kanzure | (but "build what?" in particular- see openmanufacturing, etc. etc.) | 01:04 |
| fenn | "So What?"? | 01:04 |
| gene | I don't really see fablabs being able to solve problems | 01:04 |
| fenn | the "whats it good for?" problem? | 01:04 |
| fenn | i dont really see gene being able to solve problems :P | 01:05 |
| kanzure | hah, if you need to ask "whats it good for" you're not thinking straight | 01:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: i struggled to explain this to my family on multiple occasions | 01:05 |
| gene | problems like? | 01:05 |
| fenn | they just dont understand why someone would make something themself | 01:05 |
| kanzure | gasp! evil! devilmagic! | 01:05 |
| kanzure | burn the gentoo users | 01:05 |
| fenn | because they dont DO anything | 01:05 |
| gene | burn the freemason! | 01:06 |
| gene | http://www.make-digital.com/make/vol09/?folio=75 | 01:06 |
| fenn | so everything is available at the corner grocery, or at lowes home improvement or whatever | 01:06 |
| kanzure | "everything" | 01:06 |
| davidnunez | gene: I think that mindset is fundamentally short-sighted. But I respect it. I have a lot of work to do before I can convince people otherwise | 01:06 |
| kanzure | until it's not. | 01:06 |
| fenn | yes everything they need | 01:06 |
| kanzure | defined by who? | 01:06 |
| kanzure | etc. | 01:06 |
| fenn | by their narrow vision of what's desirable | 01:06 |
| gene | I would like an example of a problem that a fablab could solve | 01:06 |
| kanzure | self-replication | 01:07 |
| kanzure | civilization-in-a-box | 01:07 |
| kanzure | diybio | 01:07 |
| fenn | swarms of dumpster-mapping UAV's | 01:07 |
| gene | ok that seems pretty cool and definately worth it | 01:07 |
| fenn | wifi blimp networks | 01:07 |
| davidnunez | Have you read Neil Gershenfeld's book??! Dozens of examples. Most not in the US (i.e. problems that are not more easily solved by driving to home depot and buying replacement parts) | 01:08 |
| kanzure | No, but I've kind of read it "by osmosis" | 01:08 |
| gene | No I haven't read his book | 01:08 |
| fenn | heh | 01:08 |
| fenn | well, i read it | 01:08 |
| fenn | but i sing tenor | 01:08 |
| fenn | er, yeah. | 01:08 |
| fenn | an epilog laser is $16-20k | 01:09 |
| fenn | waterjet is about $100k | 01:10 |
| fenn | EDM can be scrounged for $2k but is very slow | 01:10 |
| davidnunez | so gene, my latest kick is that there are lots of people who are learning how to build things and are actually stopping their learning because they do not have interesting problems to solve. Or they are just building boring things. That's not you, that's not me.. but there are tons of people reading Make and following paint-by-number recipes and assuming they are "innovating." | 01:10 |
| kanzure | :) | 01:11 |
| gene | building boring things is apparently what my senior project is limited too:( | 01:11 |
| davidnunez | I think our imaginations are, paradoxically, being limited by the democratization of technology and open manufacturing. | 01:11 |
| kanzure | what? | 01:12 |
| fenn | i think our imaginations are being limited by O'Reilly publishing corporation | 01:12 |
| davidnunez | (fenn: bingo) | 01:12 |
| kanzure | no fair, I called it first! | 01:12 |
| kanzure | :p | 01:12 |
| fenn | o | 01:12 |
| gene | I call human nature | 01:12 |
| fenn | o'reilly != open manufacturing | 01:12 |
| fenn | it's kitbashing, crafts, and trash-art | 01:13 |
| kanzure | http://openmanufacturing.net | 01:13 |
| davidnunez | Right. And for most people that's all it will ever be. | 01:13 |
| gene | In the second life, people always tend to buy things instead of being creative and making their own | 01:13 |
| fenn | if it happens to involve some spinoff businesses like the "make controller" or arduino, that's cool | 01:13 |
| fenn | but the make controller isnt the central focus of make zine | 01:13 |
| davidnunez | HOWEVER. They are the gateway drug. | 01:13 |
| gene | hmm... how useful would an automatic SMD pick and place robot be for a fablab? | 01:14 |
| fenn | not very useful | 01:14 |
| kanzure | we'll take it though. | 01:14 |
| davidnunez | and I argue, again, that the openmanufacturing movement, from every paper, website, company I've seen has a too deep focus on the building of the tools themselves and not enough on what you do with them when you have them | 01:14 |
| gene | not for making mas amounts of wifi blimp control systems? | 01:14 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: bullshit | 01:15 |
| kanzure | I haven't seen much focus on tools and what tools you need to make what tools | 01:15 |
| fenn | gene: by the time i've loaded up all the parts into the machine and programmed it, i could have populated all the boards | 01:15 |
| fenn | davidnunez: you must be joking.. how many websites even talk about building tools? | 01:16 |
| davidnunez | kanzure: we must be looking at entirely different things | 01:16 |
| gene | reprap I guess? | 01:16 |
| fenn | ok, that's one | 01:16 |
| davidnunez | tools and processes | 01:16 |
| gene | cnc zone | 01:16 |
| kanzure | nobody knows about tools and processes | 01:16 |
| fenn | two | 01:16 |
| fenn | (especially on cnczone) | 01:16 |
| kanzure | and if they do, it's not documented at all | 01:16 |
| davidnunez | jeez, look at the openmanufacturing list for the past month | 01:16 |
| davidnunez | (I'm scanning now... trying to find examples of application) | 01:17 |
| kanzure | hm? | 01:17 |
| kanzure | what do you think the openmanufacturing list is anyway? | 01:17 |
| davidnunez | the google group | 01:17 |
| kanzure | no, I mean, | 01:17 |
| kanzure | openmanufacturing is hardly representative of O'Reilly's media empire | 01:18 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@dsl092-008-180.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] | 01:18 | |
| kanzure | the core ideas related to bootstrapping, upcreation, fablabs etc. don't really have a home anywhere else | 01:18 |
| fenn | davidnunez: is an elphel camera a tool or an end product? | 01:18 |
| fenn | me, i dont really want much beside tools, why bother buying art when i can make them whenever i want | 01:19 |
| fenn | art shouldn't be sold anyway | 01:19 |
| kanzure | prostitutes? | 01:19 |
| fenn | so, besides art and tools, what is there to make? | 01:19 |
| davidnunez | fenn: Yeah. I'm reading that post... I don't know. I'm not articulating this well. elphel is not getting at the problem solving I'm talking about | 01:19 |
| fenn | no, elphel is an experiment in open firmware, more or less | 01:20 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: have you seen unptnt.com ? | 01:20 |
| fenn | unptnt is weaksauce | 01:20 |
| kanzure | true, but rauchwerk isn't. | 01:20 |
| fenn | he should be contributing to SKDB instead :P | 01:20 |
| fenn | davidnunez: what do you do when you have every tool imaginable? | 01:21 |
| * fenn hands davidnunez a magic nano AI blendermobile | 01:21 | |
| davidnunez | fenn: I get my 10 neighbors to write one problem on a piece of paper that is just out of their reach but if solved would make all of our lives better | 01:22 |
| gene | fenn you start building robots, lot's of robots | 01:22 |
| kanzure | ugh | 01:22 |
| fenn | gene: how many robots? a galactic cluster's worth? now we're getting into philosophy so i'll have to take a time out | 01:23 |
| davidnunez | fenn: ... then I pick a weekend and have us all use the tools to create speculative objects (in 48 hrs) that descibe a world where those problems are solved | 01:23 |
| kanzure | yawn | 01:23 |
| davidnunez | then I spend the next few days/weeks building all the steps in between | 01:23 |
| davidnunez | repeat. | 01:23 |
| fenn | i wish google would show more than 10 threads per page | 01:23 |
| gene | a lot of them | 01:24 |
| kanzure | are you some sort of quasi-utilitarian? | 01:24 |
| kanzure | I'm not too interested in what people say they want | 01:24 |
| fenn | davidnunez: speculative objects that solve problems.. are those not tools? | 01:24 |
| kanzure | but rather the point behind openmanufacturing and a lot of the work there is the ability to just let people do bug reports on human technological civilization | 01:24 |
| kanzure | so, if there are a lot of people unhappy, they should update the architecture for the way they live | 01:24 |
| davidnunez | fenn: Sure! I can agree with that. | 01:24 |
| kanzure | but usually this can't happen | 01:24 |
| kanzure | so that's where we get into all sorts of fun O'Neill stuff | 01:24 |
| kanzure | but somehow I don't think that's going to fly with you | 01:24 |
| fenn | davidnunez: so i dont understand the problem with "too much focus on tools" | 01:25 |
| davidnunez | fenn: although they don't necessarily have to work.. they just speculate on what it would look like if they existed | 01:25 |
| fenn | so you're disappointed that openmanufacturing isnt a scifi book club? | 01:25 |
| davidnunez | Heh. I'm disappointed that people aren't solving real problems. | 01:25 |
| fenn | me too | 01:25 |
| kanzure | what do you think we're solving though? | 01:26 |
| gene | but we don't have the tools! | 01:26 |
| kanzure | I mean, on the openmanufacturing list | 01:26 |
| davidnunez | Solving our need for technology masturbation? | 01:26 |
| kanzure | how so? | 01:26 |
| kanzure | O'Reilly != openmanufacturing | 01:26 |
| fenn | OM has been rather polluted lately and hard to see what it's about | 01:26 |
| kanzure | that's true. | 01:26 |
| fenn | see thread titled "tired of marc fawzi's crap" | 01:26 |
| fenn | now, technology masturbation | 01:27 |
| gene | hmmm... would not having a totally replicating reprap be a problem? | 01:27 |
| fenn | this is basically lusting after technology that is inapproriate for solving a particular set of problems | 01:27 |
| fenn | i think it's a symptom of existing in a consumerist society | 01:28 |
| fenn | blaming a small group of people on a mailing list won't make it go away | 01:28 |
| davidnunez | This is good. I'm getting riled up and am finding new ways to try to describe what I'm feeling. | 01:28 |
| davidnunez | so. I'm not indicting a mailing list. Not my intent. sorry for that. | 01:29 |
| fenn | i'm free to lust after matter compilers because it solves a broad range of problems | 01:29 |
| gene | that's what peer review's for | 01:29 |
| gene | if you can call it that | 01:29 |
| davidnunez | gene: heh. | 01:29 |
| fenn | gene: peer review for a mailing list? | 01:29 |
| gene | no for this conversation | 01:30 |
| fenn | i'm not following i guess | 01:30 |
| fenn | davidnunez: i've had so many ideas of cool projects that i dont know where to write them all | 01:31 |
| gene | ah yes fenn, the classic polyprojectis | 01:31 |
| fenn | eventually you just learn to live with it, you'll come up with the idea again in a couple years anyway | 01:31 |
| fenn | typically "projects" are somewhere between art and tools | 01:32 |
| fenn | i ALWAYS write down ideas for tools | 01:32 |
| fenn | because they are the most distilled, pure, unadulterated core concept behind systems | 01:32 |
| davidnunez | So maybe I'm not interested in open manufacturing. If you all can focus on building tools and processes that let me organize people to solve problems then it's MY purpose to get people to both participate as users and apply tools. My frustration is that people who involve themselves in these discussions get lustful after things like reprap and just dive down what, I believe, will be a rabbit hole... for m | 01:33 |
| kanzure3_ | "will be a rabbit hole... for m" | 01:33 |
| fenn | "... for m" | 01:33 |
| kanzure3_ | well maybe it's because reprap sucks. | 01:33 |
| kanzure3_ | also, nobody said an ad hoc design process was a good one | 01:33 |
| gene | kanzure, core group's pondering fluidic control | 01:33 |
| kanzure3_ | what? | 01:34 |
| davidnunez | for most people. Makezine facilitates that. | 01:34 |
| fenn | davidnunez: are you concerned about how reprap isnt really good for building anything? | 01:34 |
| fenn | i mean, low rez plastic with no overhangs.. | 01:34 |
| gene | not anymore fenn | 01:34 |
| fenn | sorry, no overhangs greater than 45 degrees | 01:34 |
| gene | reprap now has support material | 01:34 |
| fenn | uh, and some other poorly defined/examined constraints | 01:35 |
| gene | er... scaffolding | 01:35 |
| gene | http://blog.reprap.org/ | 01:35 |
| davidnunez | fenn: reprap's just an example...there's a whole other discussion in my head about how the tools that we DO have can solve most problems that real people are dealing with NOW and not in some self-replicating future. | 01:35 |
| fenn | davidnunez: you arent going to go on a big "land and capital" rant are you? | 01:36 |
| davidnunez | fenn: so I ask people to speculate in the near-term (1 yr... 1 month..etc). not quite sci-fi, but just out of armslength | 01:36 |
| fenn | there is more than enough "stuff" to go around | 01:36 |
| fenn | the problem is that attempts to take "stuff" away from the haves and give it to the have-nots tend to end poorly | 01:37 |
| davidnunez | fenn: I think you don't know my politics. but thanks, anyway. | 01:37 |
| fenn | ok, so what are some problems that "real people" are dealing with | 01:37 |
| davidnunez | I don't know. Get 10 of your neighbors to write down what their problems are. What bothered you today? | 01:38 |
| fenn | all the digital bathroom and kitchen scales are too expensive, and i dont have any money | 01:38 |
| fenn | it's just a load cell ffs | 01:38 |
| davidnunez | Me? There's a leaky door in my apartment that let's lots of cool air in. | 01:38 |
| kanzure3_ | davidnunez: that's taking the wrong way out of the problem. I think you could figure out what sucks just by thinking about it. | 01:38 |
| kanzure3_ | those problems all have a common backdrop | 01:39 |
| kanzure3_ | sigh | 01:39 |
| * kanzure3_ sleeps | 01:39 | |
| gene | sleep is for slackers, staying up late is for hackers | 01:39 |
| davidnunez | So now. I would get you and 5 other smart people together and we would build, in 48 hours, objects that represented solutions. | 01:39 |
| fenn | like a load cell | 01:39 |
| davidnunez | great! I don't know much about load cells. | 01:39 |
| fenn | they're just wires | 01:39 |
| davidnunez | So I and the 5 others in the room would get the shared benefit of your solution. | 01:40 |
| fenn | i could build one in an hour with a fablab | 01:40 |
| gene | load cell = easy | 01:40 |
| gene | calibrated load cell = hard | 01:40 |
| fenn | gene: party pooper | 01:40 |
| fenn | gene: you only have to write the code once | 01:40 |
| gene | though | 01:40 |
| gene | why use a load cell? | 01:41 |
| gene | when you can make a mechanical scale? | 01:41 |
| fenn | so i don't go on a gene-esque wild goose chase through the technology landscape | 01:41 |
| davidnunez | Great. if you asked 1000 people randomly picked out of a crowd what a load cell was and how they could use it to solve a problem, most would not know | 01:41 |
| fenn | davidnunez: most people have no fucking clue how anything works | 01:42 |
| fenn | that's a problem, in my book | 01:42 |
| gene | well there is this one liquid that when under pressure changes resistance | 01:42 |
| davidnunez | right. that's why speculative objects are a good approach. You don't HAVE to know how it works. you just build a representation of the end result and then build all the intermediate steps... as you learn how it works. | 01:42 |
| fenn | hence the fablab, technology literacy, publishing "how to" articles | 01:42 |
| gene | fairly sensitive I believe | 01:43 |
| fenn | no way | 01:43 |
| davidnunez | the subtlety is having a goal that's outside of the tools and processes themselves. | 01:43 |
| gene | perhaps we could put out navy style pamphlets on technology | 01:43 |
| fenn | i'll just say "it flies, because, you know, magic smoke" and then i design some totally unrealistic floating island thing | 01:43 |
| gene | http://www.hnsa.org/doc/op1140/index.htm | 01:43 |
| davidnunez | so you missed my earlier message where I said, "Just barely out of arms length" | 01:43 |
| fenn | if you dont know how things work you dont know how things ought to look | 01:43 |
| gene | here's a layman's guide to analog computers | 01:44 |
| davidnunez | ...or another way to look at it is that you have a constrained view of the world if you are constantly thinking about the innards | 01:44 |
| fenn | yes, can't see the forest for the trees | 01:44 |
| fenn | but really the only people that think like that are stuck in an engineering job making better widgets in a series of widgets | 01:45 |
| fenn | or they have no broad education and must go on raw experience with what they've seen | 01:46 |
| fenn | like hot-rodders | 01:46 |
| davidnunez | My impression of the openmanufacturing mailing list is that they are people thinking that way... | 01:46 |
| davidnunez | so that's an image problem, then, if it's not true. | 01:46 |
| fenn | "everyone knows a hemi is the best way to get more horsepower" | 01:46 |
| fenn | openmanufacturing list is sort of an oasis where people have come to water their camels | 01:47 |
| fenn | that was a weird analogy | 01:47 |
| kanzure | hump hump hump | 01:47 |
| fenn | ain't no sich animal | 01:48 |
| gene | too much 4chan eh, Kanzure? | 01:48 |
| kanzure | it's the sound of humps forming on my back | 01:49 |
| kanzure | since fenn said it's a place where people go to water their camels | 01:49 |
| davidnunez | So I'm most definitely a generalist and live at the application level (I design analog circuits as I need them, but I'd rather use an AVR) So when I think of open manufacturing, I see a group of people going nuts over projects which are difficult for me to understand their application | 01:49 |
| fenn | davidnunez: so, some things that come out of "fablab" solve problems, but a lot of them are just people playing around and/or making art | 01:49 |
| gene | so I hear you like modular robots kanzure? | 01:50 |
| davidnunez | fenn: perfect. I don't see them as mutually exclusive | 01:50 |
| gene | that's what fablabs would rock at, making modular robots | 01:50 |
| fenn | some people dont think tools are art, but it really just takes a certain mindset | 01:51 |
| davidnunez | I can respect that. | 01:51 |
| fenn | medieval craftsmen didn't think of cathedrals as art | 01:51 |
| fenn | it's just "what you did" | 01:51 |
| fenn | anyway, that line of thought goes nowhere | 01:51 |
| davidnunez | so if you were to point me to a project in the open manufacturing world that is most "artful" in your opinion... | 01:51 |
| kanzure | the shit machine? | 01:52 |
| davidnunez | cloaca? | 01:52 |
| kanzure | does that count? | 01:52 |
| davidnunez | Okay this is interesting. I learned of that project | 01:52 |
| gene | ugh... | 01:52 |
| davidnunez | by watching "Egg the Art Show" on PBS a few years back.. | 01:52 |
| kanzure | it was recently mentioned on diybio. | 01:52 |
| davidnunez | Maybe you can help me (seriously... a favor, please) | 01:53 |
| gene | ok I got a problem | 01:53 |
| davidnunez | in a nutshell, what makes that an open manufacturing project? | 01:53 |
| gene | I need a backlight for my calculator | 01:53 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: I don't think it does. | 01:53 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: I thought you meant "posted to the mailing list" | 01:53 |
| fenn | it's not an open manufacturing project | 01:53 |
| fenn | open = preferred embodiment for modifications are available, and permission to use and modify them | 01:53 |
| fenn | i'm probably missing some points, see the DFSG | 01:54 |
| fenn | basically "show me the code" | 01:54 |
| fenn | lets see.. both artful and open.. | 01:55 |
| davidnunez | so where is the line, in your mind, between Open Manufacturing and Open Hardware? (I've got my own definition, but I think yours will be more informed) | 01:55 |
| fenn | uh. none? | 01:55 |
| fenn | no difference | 01:55 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: are you familiar with autotools for F/OSS? | 01:55 |
| fenn | hardware is often taken to mean electronics for some reason | 01:56 |
| davidnunez | Okay. So now I've got all sorts of artful open manufacturing projects that opens up | 01:56 |
| davidnunez | lilypad immediately comes to mind | 01:57 |
| fenn | yes | 01:57 |
| kanzure | http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design | 01:57 |
| fenn | "design" is what they're calling it these days? :) | 01:57 |
| kanzure | http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking for a list of OSH stuffs. but this is hardly organized like SKDB would have it. | 01:58 |
| kanzure | s/organized/functional/ | 01:58 |
| kanzure | hrm, functionalized | 01:58 |
| davidnunez | I've been working with the definition that open manufacturing refers to the open (and sometimes free/beer) of the process and tools of development and producing objects | 01:58 |
| davidnunez | whereas open hardware means your beautiful schematics / designs / blueprints are open and modifiable | 01:59 |
| kanzure | tools making tools | 01:59 |
| kanzure | autotools .. | 01:59 |
| fenn | davidnunez: i dont have a comprehensive directory of open hardware projects to pull inspiration from | 01:59 |
| fenn | (incidentally this was what my first post to the OM list was about) | 01:59 |
| davidnunez | riff on instructables (I would see that as a possible repository of SOME open projects? it speaks to both process and object) | 02:00 |
| kanzure | instructables should be based off of packaged open source hardware projects with computer-readable instructions that can be translated into human readable instructions. | 02:01 |
| kanzure | but that's another rant. | 02:01 |
| davidnunez | kanzure: so tools making tools doesn't solve real problems in my world view, honestly. Maybe when you and fenn make it cheaper and more accessible to me and my 10 neighbors than just walking down to home depot. but tomorrow? not yet. hence my frustration / impatience. | 02:02 |
| gene | hey it's harder writing an instructable than you would think | 02:02 |
| fenn | davidnunez: the instructable about how to make a clear rubik's cube with magnets and acrylic cubes | 02:02 |
| davidnunez | great example! | 02:02 |
| fenn | http://www.instructables.com/id/Magnetic-Acrylic-Rubik_s-Cube/ | 02:03 |
| kanzure | yes, tomorrow. that's what the kits are about. | 02:03 |
| kanzure | small stuff at first of course, that's why we do the bootstrapping and upcreation | 02:04 |
| kanzure | is that so hard to understand? :-/ | 02:04 |
| davidnunez | Uhm. yes it is. that's your fundamental problem. | 02:04 |
| gene | kits | 02:04 |
| kanzure | hm? | 02:04 |
| fenn | i forget why i'm looking for artful open hardware | 02:04 |
| gene | what could we make as kit | 02:04 |
| kanzure | gene: les and I are already working on that, don't worry | 02:04 |
| kanzure | that's a minor detail. | 02:04 |
| gene | Hey I wouldn't mind helping | 02:05 |
| kanzure | well I mean right now | 02:05 |
| kanzure | for this discussion. | 02:05 |
| kanzure | heh' | 02:05 |
| gene | how about laser cut modular robots | 02:05 |
| gene | that use servos for actuation | 02:05 |
| davidnunez | fenn: you were helping me understand your definition of open manufacturing | 02:06 |
| fenn | i dont think it's a definition as much as a culture | 02:06 |
| davidnunez | It's still blurry and is obviously a source of semantic confusion. | 02:06 |
| fenn | like, technically a lot of programs are "open source" by the OSI definition, but they were just plonked down by some company | 02:06 |
| davidnunez | well yeah, but Open processes and culture have been around for decades and, if you stretch the definition, for centuries... what is it about open manufacturing that's different | 02:07 |
| fenn | it's about industrial things | 02:07 |
| fenn | not crafts | 02:07 |
| fenn | generally pursued as a means to an end | 02:08 |
| davidnunez | this is what's confusing then (since you pointed out the rubiks cube)... | 02:08 |
| kanzure | you were asking for art | 02:08 |
| davidnunez | I was asking for art because fenn used that in his definition of open manufacturing, is all | 02:09 |
| davidnunez | artful, actually | 02:09 |
| fenn | well, it's not exactly art in my mind because it's sort of an "ideal" | 02:09 |
| davidnunez | I guess I live in the craft world.. although I do make small runs (100 units or less) of boards and robots and things I design. I see things like oomlaut which are talked about on the open manufacturing list. Industrial? hrm. | 02:10 |
| fenn | (it = the rubik's cube) | 02:10 |
| kanzure | oomlout, yep, but they've been unfriendly to us for some reason. I tried approaching them and they weren't all that friendly. oh well. their loss. | 02:10 |
| davidnunez | but is it industrial or crafty or ?? | 02:10 |
| davidnunez | So stepping back: | 02:11 |
| fenn | like, once dewey garritt came up with that idea, that was it, it's over, the clear magnetic rubik's cube has been discovered | 02:11 |
| fenn | kanzure: they probably just misunderstood what you were saying | 02:12 |
| kanzure | I hope so. | 02:12 |
| kanzure | or they might just be business sharks in disguise. | 02:12 |
| davidnunez | if you guys got together in Austin and started talking about a fablab or hackerspace or whatever... those _words_ have some meaning now because of Make et al. I think I would be surprised to join up and discover a lot of what we've been talking about (tools making tools, etc) | 02:12 |
| fenn | well, as long as they dont sue anyone i dont care what they "are" | 02:12 |
| kanzure | fablab has been careful to keep itself separated from Make | 02:13 |
| fenn | davidnunez: it's hard to talk about things when we dont have words for them | 02:13 |
| * kanzure wonders why david doesn't sound like les | 02:13 | |
| davidnunez | kanzure: explain that, please | 02:14 |
| fenn | "upcreation" is one word i recently learned | 02:14 |
| fenn | i've been using "bootstrapping" for years now | 02:14 |
| kanzure | davidnunez: les actually mentioned that you were one of the previous guys that were pretty close on the idea spectrum | 02:14 |
| kanzure | but now I'm just confused | 02:14 |
| fenn | kanzure: compared to Robot Group he's pretty close | 02:14 |
| kanzure | true that :) | 02:15 |
| fenn | btw I've been into this since before Make hit the scene | 02:16 |
| fenn | i guess those people used to hang out at SRL or something | 02:16 |
| davidnunez | Well. Again. You don't know me. I know what you mean by "compared to Robot Group" and I think you're way off. | 02:16 |
| kanzure | so you *are* like the robotgroup? | 02:17 |
| fenn | i dont know much about Robot Group either, so dont read too much into it | 02:17 |
| kanzure | if you're more like the robotgroup then alarms should be going off, imho | 02:17 |
| kanzure | as you said- they're in a retirement home now- which is way too much of an analogy | 02:17 |
| kanzure | so what's so bad about not being compared to them? wtf | 02:17 |
| davidnunez | Oh. Wait. Maybe I misread. | 02:18 |
| fenn | i used to spend a lot of time on the gingery_machines mailing list, but it never seemed to go anywhere because the book series was the only common attractor | 02:18 |
| fenn | and we thought we werent allowed to copy the designs or something, so nobody made any improved instructions | 02:18 |
| davidnunez | yeah. sorry. I saw this "kanzure: compared to Robot Group he's pretty close" and thought I was being compared to retirement homes | 02:18 |
| davidnunez | so re: me and les and idea spectrum. | 02:19 |
| * fenn mutters about singular value decomposition | 02:20 | |
| davidnunez | I'm a member of a a couple different hackerspaces (one in a city I'm not even in, but I like them, so I happily pay "dues") | 02:20 |
| fenn | what do you do to earn money? | 02:20 |
| davidnunez | Me? I pick really interesting public arts bids or work my relationships with people I've impressed in the past to do fun art/tech/design projects. | 02:21 |
| fenn | please elaborate on what a "public arts bid" is | 02:21 |
| davidnunez | Example: I'm building a robotic lobster that kids can program via a block-language for the children's museum of austin | 02:21 |
| ybit | what's w/ the pointrel social semantic desktop? is it not a recreation of nepomuk? | 02:21 |
| kanzure | it's paul's way of being marc fawzi | 02:21 |
| fenn | ybit: pointrel is RDF, he just missed the memo | 02:21 |
| kanzure | except he's a litlte more informed | 02:21 |
| fenn | davidnunez: where does the money for this lobster come from? and who had to write grants to get it? | 02:22 |
| davidnunez | ... public art project: Working with a building contractor to design 10000 LED sphere to go on top of a firehouse | 02:22 |
| kanzure | .. | 02:23 |
| gene | .... | 02:23 |
| * fenn shrugs. sounds cool to me | 02:24 | |
| davidnunez | fenn: I subcontract. It's a paid-for gig. I have an hourly rate, I bid on projects, I get them if I do my homework. | 02:24 |
| gene | such a shame that much public art ends up at firehouses | 02:24 |
| gene | not where people can see it | 02:24 |
| davidnunez | heh. people will see this one. | 02:24 |
| davidnunez | but yeah like any other freelancing: 20% of my time is development 80% is business and proposals and schmoozing | 02:25 |
| davidnunez | (which is why I don't think fablabs & hackerspaces should be trying to start consulting businesses) | 02:25 |
| fenn | that's why i wanted an agent. | 02:26 |
| ybit | http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CAD | 02:27 |
| davidnunez | kanzure: so when Les and I talked, it was all about building up a community workshop where members bought access to tools, classes were held in the meeting space, etc. My disconnect with you is really more about an evolution in my thinking that's taken me away from the logistics of building a space and more towards what you do with it. | 02:27 |
| fenn | ah i thought of an artful open hardware project, and there's a crapload of it | 02:27 |
| fenn | http://www.n55.dk/ | 02:28 |
| davidnunez | Very Nice. | 02:28 |
| fenn | in particular http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/SPACEFRAME/spaceframe.html | 02:29 |
| fenn | i wish they would expand more on http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/FACTORY/FACTORY.html | 02:29 |
| davidnunez | I was about to say the same thing... there aren't plans to follow to build these | 02:30 |
| fenn | no there aren't plans, but all the info is there | 02:30 |
| davidnunez | but I guess they do list parts | 02:30 |
| fenn | it needs more rigorous specification | 02:31 |
| davidnunez | and show photos... so the open process might imply somebody who is great at blueprint making could inject their own drawings | 02:31 |
| davidnunez | and add more specs | 02:31 |
| fenn | they outsourced all the plastic octahedrons, but apparently it's really hard to get small quantities of that sort of thing in the US | 02:32 |
| davidnunez | (bells going off in my head) So would you say this is an example of something (the octahedrons) that could be fabricated in a fablab-like space? | 02:33 |
| fenn | hmmm.. i dont know | 02:33 |
| fenn | certainly more difficult than bending sheet metal into angle | 02:34 |
| fenn | blow molding can't be that hard can it? | 02:34 |
| fenn | i was surprised fablab didnt have a vacuum forming machine | 02:36 |
| davidnunez | re: moving to austin - I think you should. I think it's a risk, but I suspect that you guys can pull it off. The truth is that Austin is begging for something like an open manufacturing space and really needs people that are thinking about this full-time to pull it off. You strike me as somebody who both cares about it | 02:36 |
| fenn | or any material deformation processes actually | 02:36 |
| davidnunez | and knows enough to make it work | 02:37 |
| fenn | thanks for your vote of confidence :) | 02:37 |
| davidnunez | personally the problem of building a fablab, I've decided is not interesting to ME. So better you than I. | 02:37 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/inventory-comparison.html shows the strengths and weaknesses of various approaches to accessible manufacturing | 02:38 |
| davidnunez | <mouth dropping open> See? this is what I mean. :D | 02:39 |
| fenn | http://www.positron.org/projects/acrylic_cases/ | 02:45 |
| fenn | and http://www.positron.org/projects/A51/ | 02:45 |
| fenn | that's the kind of art I like at least | 02:45 |
| fenn | you can download the code for the CPLD and gumstix; only problem is E-ink won't sell to individuals and it's basically impossible to get a similar display technology from anywhere else | 02:49 |
| davidnunez | Yeah. This stuff I can appreciate. And I suppose if Open Manufacturing was all about making these materials and tools and processes available to more people for WHATEVER purpose (art, hobby, problem-solving) then that's very cool. | 02:54 |
| davidnunez | My focus is on problem-solving... and I'll encourage my 10 neighbors to use whatever tools are available right now. and in 5 years when e-ink is available on digi-key, then I'll add that to the problem-solving toolbox | 02:55 |
| davidnunez | I'm a consumer for the stuff you're making, is what it's come down to. and my responsibility, like in all open projects, is to provide feedback from field tests in "the real world" | 02:56 |
| fenn | god i hope it's not another 5 years | 02:57 |
| davidnunez | I'm not frustrated because I think everyone should be doing this... just that nobody, at all, seems to be. | 02:57 |
| fenn | <- still waiting for an unencumbered FPGA | 02:58 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-182-248.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 05:43 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] | 06:49 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap | 06:53 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] | 07:11 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap | 07:49 | |
| -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] | 07:50 | |
| kanzure | hm, les has been doing some damage control | 07:57 |
| kanzure | neat. | 07:57 |
| -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 08:07 | |
| kanzure | fenn: I fwd'd "simplistic models of capability growth" from sl4.org. I'm not sure it's interesting enough to warrant consideration, since the variables are too weird/ambiguous/simple/useless. | 09:01 |
| -!- nsh [n=kaapo@c49.adsl.tnnet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:10 | |
| -!- nsh [n=kaapo@c49.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit ["Your mom is so ugly, when she went to McDonalds, they couldn't serve happy meals."] | 11:15 | |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:55 | |
| -!- kanzure2 [i=bbishop@66.112.232.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 13:12 | |
| -!- Netsplit hubbard.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: UtopiahGHML | 13:33 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: UtopiahGHML | 13:33 | |
| -!- kanzure [i=bbishop@66.112.232.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 14:51 | |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] | 15:14 | |
| fenn | ah finally got my opengl rotations to work | 15:16 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:17 | |
| kanzure-- | wtf, just got a phone call from Algae Biofuel World Summit 2009 because I downloaded their brochure the other day | 15:33 |
| kanzure-- | so they were calling to ask if I had any questions | 15:34 |
| kanzure-- | how weird. | 15:34 |
| -!- xp_prg2 [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:39 | |
| bkero | You downloaded their brochure and put in real information? | 15:42 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-182-34.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:42 | |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 15:48 | |
| kanzure-- | well that was my first mistake, you see | 15:48 |
| kanzure-- | the second was answering the phone | 15:48 |
| fenn | did you ask "why are you calling me?" | 15:48 |
| kanzure-- | they asked "do you have any questions about the event?" | 15:49 |
| * kanzure-- leaves the lab | 15:50 | |
| * kanzure-- wonders which lab he is presently in | 15:50 | |
| fenn | i bet campbell would dig this: http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0878 | 16:07 |
| fenn | giant directed graph of corporate ownership | 16:08 |
| davidnunez | related visualization : http://www.theyrule.net/ | 16:10 |
| davidnunez | (oldie but goodie) | 16:10 |
| -!- kanzure [n=bbishop@66.112.232.117] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:13 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-182-34.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 16:38 | |
| kanzure3_ | fenn: looks like Eric Hunting is at it again | 17:52 |
| kanzure3_ | I think his email though demonstrates a lack of underlying architecture | 17:55 |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: elias` | 18:04 | |
| kanzure3_ | davidnunez: be sure to see the latest posts to the openmanufacturing list :) particularly Eric's and my subsequent response. | 18:35 |
| kanzure | whois John Carlson and Jayson Tymko? | 18:46 |
| -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:50 | |
| * kanzure just got the Pink Army Coop "what we are" doc. | 18:59 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-19.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:33 | |
| ybit | http://www.blendernation.com/2009/02/05/seastead-design-contest/ | 21:36 |
| ybit | direct link: http://seasteading.org/interact/design-contest | 21:36 |
| ybit | "The Seasteading Institute (TSI) is looking for creative and talented designers to construct a seastead using 3-D modeling software." | 21:36 |
| kanzure | aka please do our work for us | 21:45 |
| kanzure3_ | wonder why that's on blender. | 21:46 |
| ybit | the animation community is all about contests and practicing their art, so this is another outlet for it | 21:48 |
| kanzure3_ | but this is for engineering | 21:49 |
| fenn | i wonder if they intended this consequence "So basically even if you don't win, they still can use your design for commercial use, without paying you a dime!" | 21:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: there's a good email from eric waiting in your inbox | 21:54 |
| fenn | heh ok i'll go read it then | 21:54 |
| fenn | i wonder if he's been talking to david | 21:57 |
| fenn | (davidnunez that is) | 21:57 |
| kanzure3_ | eric? I doubt it | 21:57 |
| fenn | yeah it's just funny how similar it is to what we've been talking about the last couple days | 22:00 |
| kanzure3_ | not as funny/weird as me running into les, what with the inhabiting the same idea space and such. | 22:01 |
| kanzure3_ | I find it more likely that eric would post something similar than it is that I would ever into someone like les :p | 22:01 |
| fenn | i wonder if eric could help actually getting books made, since he's in the textbook business after all.. | 22:06 |
| kanzure | i bet. :) | 22:06 |
| kanzure | see also my response to eric | 22:08 |
| kanzure | maybe eric will move down to austin too? | 22:10 |
| fenn | not likely | 22:12 |
| kanzure3_ | "health issues" | 22:12 |
| fenn | he can't be around car exhaust, people smoking cigarettes, paint, etc etc | 22:13 |
| fenn | i'm sure he'd like his own fab though | 22:14 |
| kanzure3_ | he's emailed me about his looking into a New Mexico fablab | 22:14 |
| kanzure3_ | so yes. | 22:14 |
| fenn | i wonder if "Maker" is trademarked | 22:16 |
| kanzure3_ | I've only seen Eric using it, and then you using it because he used it (same with me I guess) | 22:16 |
| fenn | really? i've heard it other places.. seth frey said it a couple times | 22:20 |
| fenn | Maker Workshop, Maker Faire, etc | 22:20 |
| kanzure3_ | nevermind | 22:22 |
| fenn | instead of "maker culture" you could call it "tool cult" :P | 22:23 |
| fenn | "What is the smallest library that could contain the essential bootstrapping notions and knowledge of civilization? The smallest must in fact only contain information, since via the correct information, any tool needed could be built." WRONG | 22:30 |
| kanzure | is that kk.org? | 22:30 |
| fenn | yes | 22:30 |
| kanzure | please point that out on om | 22:30 |
| kanzure3_ | http://hackaday.com/2009/02/10/the-ponginator/ yay vern (etc.) | 22:32 |
| kanzure3_ | better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPSoFYHywJw | 22:37 |
| fenn | ah yes i recognize that honk noise from sprinkler valves | 22:47 |
| gene | odd | 22:48 |
| gene | my sprinkler valves never honk | 22:50 |
| kanzure3_ | maybe you're not using them correctly? | 22:52 |
| gene | I use a pneumatic trigger valve | 22:53 |
| gene | they use electric | 22:53 |
| gene | pneumatic gives better performance than sprinkler valve solenoids | 22:53 |
| fenn | i never got very good performance | 22:54 |
| fenn | compared to a ball valve, wow! | 22:54 |
| gene | then mod your valve | 22:54 |
| fenn | how's that? | 22:55 |
| gene | v | 22:55 |
| gene | http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/modding-a-sprinkler-valve-t305.html | 22:55 |
| gene | add a pilot valve | 22:55 |
| gene | ever tried firing snowballs? | 22:56 |
| fenn | no | 22:57 |
| gene | good | 22:57 |
| fenn | i made paintball "mortar shells" with cornstarch/food coloring and 3 styrofoam cups | 22:57 |
| gene | because PVC becomes brittle near 0 degrees C | 22:58 |
| fenn | ah, yeah ABS pipe | 22:58 |
| fenn | they should ban PVC | 22:58 |
| gene | ABS pipe? | 22:58 |
| gene | pressure rated ABS? | 22:58 |
| fenn | yes, it's black, looks like PVC pipe, fits pvc fittings | 22:58 |
| gene | where the heck do you get that? | 22:58 |
| fenn | won't shatter into sharp pieces | 22:59 |
| fenn | i got it at the hardware store i worked at.. | 22:59 |
| gene | yeah I know | 22:59 |
| gene | damn | 22:59 |
| gene | you could fire that at cold temperatures | 22:59 |
| fenn | there's that dark gray pipe, know what it's made of? | 23:00 |
| gene | and high ones | 23:00 |
| gene | huh? | 23:00 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-19.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 23:00 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-19.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:01 | |
| fenn | google "abs drain pipe" | 23:02 |
| gene | firefox crashed | 23:02 |
| fenn | http://www.northamericanpipe.com/images/prod_ASTM_f628.jpg | 23:02 |
| gene | drain pipe ain't PR? | 23:03 |
| fenn | eh well it seems to work :) | 23:03 |
| gene | well it won't turn into shrapnel | 23:04 |
| gene | so I guess if it did break there wouldn't be much of a problem | 23:04 |
| gene | how many psi do you run yours at? | 23:04 |
| gene | I've never taken mine above 60 psi | 23:06 |
| fenn | 90 | 23:06 |
| gene | what sort of range do you get? | 23:06 |
| fenn | crap range, like 100 feet | 23:06 |
| fenn | makes this awful honking noise | 23:06 |
| fenn | sounds like a goose exploding | 23:07 |
| gene | as I said use a pilot valve | 23:08 |
| gene | and fill it with helium and extend the barrel | 23:08 |
| fenn | and put hypersonic airfoils on the projectile to catch the transverse jets of hot hydrogen? | 23:09 |
| fenn | launch that spud into space! | 23:09 |
| gene | you can break the sound barrier if you use helium | 23:09 |
| fenn | but.. why? | 23:10 |
| gene | but we're running out of helium, so I don't recommend it | 23:10 |
| gene | why not? | 23:10 |
| fenn | because there are better ways to make guns? | 23:10 |
| gene | what's not cool about a tennis ball going at the speed of sound? | 23:11 |
| -!- Netsplit hubbard.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: xp_prg2, UtopiahGHML | 23:12 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: xp_prg2, UtopiahGHML | 23:13 | |
| gene | or a golf breaking the sound barrier? | 23:13 |
| -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has quit [] | 23:36 | |
| kanzure | pfft, | 23:40 |
| kanzure | "I want to do an inventory .. before I go schlepping it across the countryside" | 23:41 |
| kanzure | there's a joke about UPS or FedEx in there somewhere | 23:41 |
| gene | http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2009/02/-thomas-thwaites-the-toaster.php | 23:42 |
| gene | kanzure want to make a toaster? | 23:42 |
| gene | from scratch? | 23:42 |
| kanzure3_ | " Its author, Thomas Thwaites is trying to make an electric toaster, from scratch. Beginning with mining the raw materials." | 23:42 |
| kanzure3_ | That's how I like my toast. | 23:43 |
| gene | yeah me too | 23:43 |
| gene | he wants to visit an oil rig to get teh oil | 23:43 |
| gene | wonder if the chem-e's on our team have figured out that magic algae to crude thing yet... | 23:44 |
| gene | wonder what that artist is going to do to make the plastic from scratch | 23:46 |
| gene | will he make the catalysts too? | 23:46 |
| fenn | why an electric toaster? | 23:48 |
| fenn | bah he's cheating | 23:50 |
| fenn | hair dryers.. | 23:50 |
| gene | hair dryers for stoking a fire | 23:51 |
| gene | not a good idea | 23:52 |
| gene | hair dryers have an internal heat limiting switch that prevents them from ever getting too hot | 23:52 |
| fenn | and so do APC power stripts :( | 23:53 |
| gene | rather annoying if you're trying to weld plastic sheets together with one to make a solar balloon | 23:53 |
| gene | but alas, it might catch on fire | 23:53 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-19.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 23:54 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-19.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:54 | |
| kanzure3_ | "Left to his own devices he couldn’t build a toaster. He could just about make a sandwich and that was it." | 23:59 |
| kanzure3_ | Mostly Harmless, Douglas Adams, 1992 | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
