| --- Day changed Wed Feb 11 2009 | ||
| gene | heh | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| gene | he's trying to copy a toster | 00:00 |
| gene | he isn't being creative and using ceramics made from dirt for insulators | 00:00 |
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| ybit | free time management software: http://www.rescuetime.com/ | 02:03 |
| ybit | ick, didn't see that it wasn't completely free | 02:04 |
| ybit | http://www.rescuetime.com/signup -- shows what you are missing if you just get the free account | 02:04 |
| nsh | sounds stupid | 02:05 |
| nsh | tempted to sign-up, cain the site with scripted usage then make use of the no-questions-asked money-back guarantee | 02:06 |
| nsh | just out of principle | 02:06 |
| kanzure3_ | I must have a les-meter built in to my head | 03:13 |
| kanzure3_ | randomly waking up in the middle of the night just in time to receive his emails | 03:13 |
| kanzure3_ | http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Recursion | 03:17 |
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| nsh | has anyone kicked eliezer in the nuts yet? | 04:09 |
| nsh | it's starting to become the only thing i can concentrate on | 04:09 |
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| kanzure3_ | http://www.heise-online.co.uk/security/Risky-MIME-sniffing-in-Internet-Explorer--/features/112589 | 08:34 |
| kanzure3_ | seriously? embedding javascript in the MIME headers? hahah | 08:34 |
| kanzure3_ | http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Replication | 09:06 |
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| kanzure-- | a day in the life at fablab austin [to be written] (per alec's suggestion.) | 10:02 |
| nsh | http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090211094038.htm | 10:47 |
| nsh | consider investing | 10:47 |
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| xp_prg2 | kanzure you here? | 12:42 |
| kanzure | maybe | 12:44 |
| xp_prg2 | are there chips that work with dna? | 12:45 |
| xp_prg2 | are they inexpensive? | 12:45 |
| kanzure3_ | yes, but not on the consumer market | 12:45 |
| xp_prg2 | I can't get one? | 12:45 |
| kanzure3_ | I don't know. | 12:45 |
| fenn | "work with dna" probably doesnt mean what you want it to | 13:06 |
| xp_prg2 | fenn help me to know what I want to do | 13:12 |
| * fenn briefly considers using xp_prg2 as an unwitting pawn, and decides against it | 13:14 | |
| xp_prg2 | no use me! | 13:17 |
| fenn | "no use" you :( | 13:20 |
| kanzure | hah | 13:20 |
| kanzure | bravo. | 13:20 |
| fenn | don't encourage me | 13:20 |
| xp_prg2 | use me damn it! | 13:21 |
| fenn | xp_prg2: show me how to make a validator for yaml (and no, i dont want to use kwalify) | 13:22 |
| kanzure3_ | validator? do you mean a grammar parser? | 13:22 |
| kanzure3_ | hrm, grammar parser is the wrong word | 13:23 |
| fenn | um.. more like "list of acceptable values" | 13:23 |
| kanzure3_ | you mean to check whether or not the syntax is valid? | 13:23 |
| kanzure3_ | hrm. | 13:23 |
| fenn | bah i'll just match against a regex | 13:23 |
| fenn | thanks xp_prg2 | 13:23 |
| xp_prg2 | what does that have to do with electronics and dna? | 13:23 |
| fenn | i'm doing inventory of my electronics and want a consistent labeling scheme? | 13:24 |
| kanzure | doesn't gEDA have a BOM tool? I don't recall how good it is though | 13:26 |
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| fenn | each person on your team only needs to save 20 seconds per day to recoup the cost of the service. By using RescueTime, it's almost like adding another person to your team. | 13:58 |
| fenn | so basically this is saying each person on the team only helps 20 seconds per day? what? | 13:58 |
| fenn | oh, never mind my poor math skills | 13:59 |
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| fenn | xp_prg2: are you william "tim" heath? | 15:01 |
| fenn | ah yes, /me finds it in the logs | 15:02 |
| xp_prg2 | why? | 15:15 |
| fenn | i was wondering why you sign your emails "tim" | 15:16 |
| xp_prg2 | cuz it is a nick name and just cuz :> | 15:39 |
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| kanzure | so, I'm thinking that there's a way to dynamically plug-and-construct machine that could effectively be called a dynamic n-axis cnc machine | 16:27 |
| kanzure | I was thinking it'd be nice to have an n-axis cnc machine design generator, since after a while the addition of a new axis gets kinda repetitive | 16:28 |
| kanzure | but then again, I think someone wrote a proof once that a 6-axis cnc machine is sufficiently able to get things done that one wouldn't want to bother with >6 | 16:28 |
| kanzure | (i've also been thinking of a rocket that sings when flying vertically, as a ridiculous use of the air resistance) | 16:30 |
| fenn | 5-axis is generally sufficient | 16:38 |
| fenn | some robot stuff needs >6 | 16:38 |
| fenn | but only really weird stuff like welding around a corner | 16:38 |
| kanzure | heh there was some ass on the diybio list saying "everybody has great ideas but nobody wants to commit time to them, that's why stuff like diybio always sucks" | 16:39 |
| kanzure | sorry for the fablab I guess? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | I'm pretty sure that's just a meme that a cynic is regurgitating though | 16:40 |
| kanzure3_ | "Published works in numerical simulation of DNA migration. in agarose gel electrophoresis" | 16:43 |
| fenn | btw re: n-axis cnc machine, EMC really needs some kind of arbitrary kinematics builder, it would simplify a lot of tech support for people doing weird stuff | 16:44 |
| kanzure3_ | oh really? | 16:44 |
| fenn | right now you have to write custom C to do all the trigonometry | 16:44 |
| kanzure3_ | would metal linkages be ok for arbitrary kinematics? | 16:44 |
| fenn | huh? by definition that's not arbitrary | 16:44 |
| fenn | you mean planar pivots right? | 16:44 |
| kanzure3_ | yes, but toss me the name of another type of linkage | 16:45 |
| fenn | prismatic, revolute, ball and socket | 16:45 |
| kanzure3_ | so, pradeep at ADL is working on metal linkages and maybe a few of those types of linkages | 16:46 |
| kanzure3_ | and then uses these to build some design that matches some kinematic motion profile | 16:46 |
| kanzure3_ | (he isn't doing motion profile matching yet AFAIK) | 16:46 |
| kanzure3_ | most software like that apparently does it in reverse: user draws a curve, and then the program comes up with a few links of stuffs and different types of links, and then the program comes up with some design. | 16:47 |
| fenn | i remember some artist had a collection of linkages that signed his name | 16:47 |
| kanzure3_ | that's a neat one. | 16:47 |
| kanzure3_ | is that a Signature machine though? | 16:47 |
| kanzure3_ | politicians apparently have machines that sign their names via holding pens | 16:47 |
| kanzure3_ | but it's probably actuated/digital | 16:47 |
| fenn | it was all linkages, not a pantograph | 16:47 |
| kanzure3_ | and there's also this -> http://www.robotics.utexas.edu/rrg/research/manipd/ | 16:48 |
| kanzure3_ | under "Current Research Emphasis" see the first diagram of "starting kinematic configuration" which is what I think you're asking for. | 16:48 |
| fenn | modularity is good, but the more redundant joints you have the harder it is to control | 16:49 |
| fenn | didnt they have some kind of big black truss/tetrahedron? | 16:50 |
| kanzure3_ | Marrs, M. R. and Tesar, D. "Design of an Advanced, High-Precision, Seven Degree-of-Freedom Modular Robotic Manipulator." Thesis, UT Austin, 1997. | 16:50 |
| kanzure3_ | huh? don't know | 16:50 |
| kanzure3_ | "Hi Bryan, thanks for that! I do like the idea of domestic appliances using themselves to replicate themselves like a down to earth fablab/ universal replicator thing (after all mundane domestic objects would most likely be the ultimate use for such powerful tools)! | 16:52 |
| kanzure3_ | Anyway, thanks for your interest... I was kind of wrong footed by the sudden blog attention but it's really encouraging to have people emailing from all over!" - Thomas Thwaites | 16:52 |
| fenn | http://www.robotics.utexas.edu/rrg/general/facilities/vgt.htm | 16:52 |
| kanzure3_ | I really want that to be modular. plug a few of those together or something. | 16:55 |
| fenn | hexegrity is possibly the cheapest motion platform possible: http://fennetic.net/machines/hexegrity | 17:01 |
| fenn | i want to put one of those on each face of an octahedron | 17:01 |
| fenn | if you can make sense of that drawing.. i should really get hacking on that java applet | 17:02 |
| kanzure3_ | David Treadwell's business - http://www.quintillionmaterials.com/ | 17:21 |
| kanzure3_ | aha, here we go | 17:22 |
| kanzure3_ | http://ferrocene.livejournal.com/ | 17:22 |
| kanzure3_ | was wondering how I found treadwell | 17:23 |
| kanzure3_ | turns out I emailed him back in March of last year about kinematic self-replication and materials science | 17:23 |
| kanzure3_ | (as I mentioned, I met him at the robotgroup meeting last Thursday, apparently he recognized me) | 17:23 |
| fenn | nice bench; http://pics.livejournal.com/ferrocene/pic/0003wqkr/ | 17:35 |
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| kanzure3_ | complimentary cat. | 17:48 |
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| fenn | the cat is decorative | 18:27 |
| kanzure | off to go to a physics test and then the actlab for dorkbot and to chat it up with rauchwerk about things | 18:31 |
| kanzure | he claims he's "up to his eyes in coding unptnt" but I don't believe that .. if he was really drowning, he would have already given me something to code, or listened to our packaging ideas. | 18:31 |
| kanzure | (why am I still condemned to manipulating pointless (get it?) vectors on paper for tests?) | 18:31 |
| * fenn manipulates pointful vectors in an applet | 18:32 | |
| fenn | trying to figure out the easiest way to do a hamiltonian traversal over an octahedron | 18:32 |
| fenn | i guess i'll just type out a bunch of numbers | 18:33 |
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| fenn | hm i dont need the hamiltonian, just the set of non-diagonals | 18:39 |
| fenn | man java is lame | 18:51 |
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| gene | kanzure? | 19:13 |
| ybit | bkero: where did you say you were formally an IT administrator? portland uni.. something.. i forget | 20:51 |
| fenn | oregon state university open source lab | 20:52 |
| fenn | in corvallis, not portland | 20:52 |
| bkero | ybit: That's correct. | 20:53 |
| bkero | And not formerly | 20:53 |
| fenn | aw man, i got suckered | 21:02 |
| fenn | ken perlin's java applet doesnt do a real simulation | 21:03 |
| fenn | it just moves the moving thingy closer to the center | 21:03 |
| fenn | instead of simulating all the spring forces on it | 21:03 |
| fenn | this is what I'm going on about: http://fennetic.net/machines/hexegrity/hexegrity.html | 21:08 |
| fenn | it should rotate slightly due to the asymmetry in the string attachments | 21:08 |
| fenn | oh well it gets the point across | 21:08 |
| kanzure | blah, I left dorkbot early because the only cool stuff there was charlie's bag of reprap parts. but seriously.. it's all "craft" crap. | 21:13 |
| * kanzure hasn't ran a java applet in .. quite a while. proudly. | 21:13 | |
| fenn | moved to: http://fennetic.net/machines/hexegrity-applet/hexegrity.html | 21:13 |
| kanzure | heh, so I went to dorkbot to see dave | 21:31 |
| kanzure | and he didn't show up, but sent me an SMS which I found out about by checking email | 21:31 |
| kanzure | yay technology | 21:31 |
| fenn | woo | 21:35 |
| gene | kanzure did you see the wood burner? | 21:45 |
| gene | ha you missed the water bridge | 21:45 |
| gene | but yeah, craft shit | 21:45 |
| gene | stuff in the other room was cool | 21:45 |
| fenn | cnc soldering iron? | 21:45 |
| gene | nope | 21:46 |
| * fenn can't imagine any other use for a wood burner | 21:46 | |
| gene | as in some pencil drawing on a piece of wood | 21:46 |
| gene | hooked up to a neon sign transform | 21:46 |
| gene | er | 21:46 |
| fenn | isn't wood an insulator? | 21:47 |
| gene | no, and yes | 21:47 |
| gene | graphite isn't | 21:47 |
| fenn | uh, so it conducts down the graphite trace? | 21:47 |
| gene | it was quite possibly the most beautiful thing I have ever seen | 21:47 |
| gene | kanzure you didn't see the water bridge? | 21:48 |
| gene | due watching an arc burn through wood is something else | 21:48 |
| gene | nice and white | 21:48 |
| ybit | bkero: oh. i thought you were with google now | 21:49 |
| gene | same guy also tried to use an X-ray transformer to make a levitating bridge of water between two cups | 21:49 |
| gene | didn't work very well | 21:50 |
| gene | kept turning into a jacobs lader | 21:50 |
| gene | a jacobs ladder made of DI water | 21:50 |
| fenn | water + HV = fun! or death.. | 21:50 |
| gene | this guy was an expert | 21:50 |
| gene | he wore gloves | 21:50 |
| fenn | gloves dont do that much at 50kV | 21:51 |
| davidnunez | Im curious (kanzure gene): what, in your mind, elevates an activity outside of "craft shit" | 21:51 |
| gene | yeah I know | 21:52 |
| davidnunez | ...or maybe, what is your definition of "craft crap"? | 21:52 |
| bkero | ybit: That was an internship. I'm done. | 21:57 |
| gene | is it intended to make people think about certain things, while doing it in approach that has been tried many times before, just dressed up differently | 21:57 |
| gene | that can be considered craft crap | 21:57 |
| fenn | or not dressed up differently | 21:58 |
| fenn | and having no real use.. | 21:59 |
| gene | does it explode, make loud noises, make bright light, make the very air itself glow? | 21:59 |
| gene | not craft crap | 21:59 |
| davidnunez | I share the frustration, but I think I'm not as dismissive... | 22:00 |
| davidnunez | Here's an example: LED Throwies. | 22:00 |
| gene | building stuff just for the heck of it," hey guys let's build a completely mechanical computer capable of running crisis in real time" | 22:00 |
| fenn | gene: uh, sounds pretty cool to me | 22:01 |
| gene | = not craft crap | 22:01 |
| davidnunez | GRL "invented" or more accurately "popularized" LED Throwies and had a really original / political slant to their approach. | 22:01 |
| gene | the sad thing about LED throwies is that people are to afraid to use them, and people are too stupid to recognize them as something other than a bomb | 22:02 |
| fenn | how can LED's be political? | 22:02 |
| gene | can't I just build something just for fun? | 22:02 |
| davidnunez | GRL is all about subversive expression of technology - political. But that's not the point.... | 22:03 |
| gene | subversive and disruptive is how I like my tech | 22:04 |
| davidnunez | Their throwies have been coopted by schools and magazines and diy crafty clubs who get together and TAPE (not even solder) an LED circuit together. | 22:04 |
| gene | but they are fun though | 22:04 |
| davidnunez | Sure! Tons of fun and easy. | 22:05 |
| gene | heh made my own version | 22:05 |
| gene | made a levitating LED lamp | 22:05 |
| davidnunez | But I get very frustrated because people (not you-- you made your own version) just STOP there. They don't explore further. | 22:05 |
| davidnunez | and because of the DIY marketing machine, people are equating LED Throwies with "innovation" "I'm a 1337 hax0r cuz I made LED throwies by following a paint-by-numbers instruction manual" | 22:06 |
| gene | well I was really just an LED battery and some tape attached to a mylar balloon and balanced in such a manner as to be aesthetically pleasing | 22:06 |
| davidnunez | I don't know how that fits in with "apt-get install washing_machine" which is the ULTIMATE paint-by-numbers experience... not even painting, really. | 22:07 |
| davidnunez | but I do think there is a total lack of "what's next?" and "so what?" in much of the DIY space. | 22:08 |
| gene | in order to be 1337 you must make a machine capable of graffiting a wall from a sufficiently far away to be unnoticed unmarked van | 22:08 |
| fenn | cnc paintball gun? | 22:09 |
| gene | throwie gun | 22:09 |
| fenn | but throwies arent graffiti | 22:09 |
| davidnunez | To sum up (and shut myself up): I think "Hello Worlds" are SO important. But they are not enough. People who are excited enough to ask "what next?" have a big empty void to cross to get out of "craft" land | 22:09 |
| fenn | it's just a bunch of blinking lights | 22:09 |
| fenn | there's no "message" | 22:09 |
| gene | david I'll admit, I am guilty of copying projects | 22:10 |
| davidnunez | gene: so do you think when you copy projects you're making "craft crap"? I'm not trying to be confrontational... I really do want to understand attitudes around these ideas. | 22:11 |
| fenn | well, find some crackers that used to be script kiddies and see what changed their worldview | 22:11 |
| gene | how else was I supposed to get 405 nm laser that cheaply? | 22:11 |
| fenn | though my enlightenment was that we have precious few new ideas, and way more than we realize is copied from others | 22:11 |
| fenn | gene: that's not the point | 22:12 |
| fenn | the point is you're trying to do something with that laser, not just make it to say you did it | 22:12 |
| fenn | but david's complaining about people who just build the laser as a science fair project | 22:12 |
| fenn | even though there's no science | 22:13 |
| davidnunez | so in your world view, _applied_ hacking is what makes the activity worthwhile? Does art fit? | 22:13 |
| fenn | if you're not pushing the boundaries or doing quantity production, you're wasting your time | 22:13 |
| fenn | quantity production = supporting the rest of civilization | 22:14 |
| davidnunez | that's good. That sums it up and can apply to lots of context. | 22:14 |
| davidnunez | if you're not pushing the boundaries of art, you're just painting-by-numbers | 22:14 |
| fenn | == craft | 22:15 |
| fenn | uh, i read some definitions of this a while ago, but i cant remember the precise wordings | 22:15 |
| fenn | craft is about the skill with which something is executed | 22:16 |
| davidnunez | (Although. devil's advocate -- You have to PRACTICE lots before you get to be great. Copying other people's work is a time-honored tradition for building up skills (think pianists). You have to be ready with the right tools when the lightning bolt of inspiration hits) | 22:17 |
| fenn | blah.. totally unrelated google results for "craft art science" | 22:17 |
| fenn | there are other ways to learn than practice | 22:17 |
| davidnunez | Sure. But it's a good way. | 22:17 |
| fenn | although i concede that practice is effective | 22:18 |
| davidnunez | Heh. What's the equivalent to practicing your scales in building robots? | 22:18 |
| fenn | the thing is, you can usually find something new that's still baseline easy, vs copying a hello world program | 22:18 |
| fenn | line follower, cockroach (hides from light), balance bot, logo turtle | 22:19 |
| gene | well I just wanted a high powered violet laser | 22:19 |
| davidnunez | True. I guess, though, you'd need to have a little experience to know what's innovative. You can assume a newbie is going to come up with the exact same set of revelations as all their predecessors for a long while. | 22:19 |
| fenn | meh.. i've never built a line follower but i can guess that it'll be boring | 22:20 |
| gene | though I just found out I might be able to make a spectrograph | 22:20 |
| davidnunez | cross connect photoresistor comparison w/ wheels. done. | 22:21 |
| fenn | gene: have you been following diybio? | 22:21 |
| gene | not really fenn | 22:21 |
| gene | I've been doing schoool | 22:21 |
| fenn | gene: well, the discussion i'm following is about an agarose gel in a straw; i'd like to be able to make a cheap spectrometer that you could detect dna with as it goes down the straw | 22:22 |
| davidnunez | but yeah... actually, it's a good example because there are so many ways you can build a line follower. It reminds me of when I used to run software interviews... we'd ask "Write a program that sorts a list alphabetically" | 22:22 |
| gene | well then fenn | 22:22 |
| davidnunez | and then see how long it takes to make the program more and more optimal. | 22:22 |
| gene | you might be in luck | 22:22 |
| fenn | i dunno if DNA absorbs at 405nm though | 22:22 |
| fenn | you can get 305nm LED's which might work | 22:22 |
| davidnunez | tangent complete. Thanks! | 22:23 |
| fenn | davidnunez: that's a fairly computer-sciencey question, so you're favoring people who went to school and not necessarily people who know how to write programs that work well and are maintainable | 22:24 |
| gene | kanzure, so anychance of visiting the fab | 22:24 |
| fenn | its like "write a function that maps a function to a hash in language xyz" | 22:24 |
| davidnunez | fenn: I totally agree. software job interviews == hazing. | 22:24 |
| gene | david it's fun just to build things even if they aren't your own design | 22:24 |
| gene | but I agree, there are lot's of script kiddies | 22:25 |
| davidnunez | gene: so why do you call other people's work "craft crap?" | 22:25 |
| gene | because I find it uninteresting | 22:25 |
| fenn | craft crap should be well executed if you're going to show it off | 22:25 |
| davidnunez | fair enough. | 22:25 |
| fenn | nobody wants to see bad art | 22:26 |
| gene | though people can make bad art if it suits them | 22:26 |
| davidnunez | Yeah. "Don't get too proud of your LED throwies... there's a whole big world out there" | 22:26 |
| davidnunez | I want to be the guy with the lantern waving over the crafters w/ promise out of the mob of paint-by-numbers artists.... giving them a direction to learn and to start applying their hacking to interesting problems. | 22:27 |
| davidnunez | blah.. blah.. blah... speculative hacking.. blah ;) | 22:27 |
| gene | well one reason for paint by the number type things, is that they can enable one to make something very hard to buy | 22:29 |
| gene | like a potato cannon or a high power laser | 22:29 |
| fenn | but that's something different | 22:29 |
| fenn | it's not paint-by-numbers anymore, it's manufacturing autonomy or something | 22:30 |
| fenn | assuming you actually do something with it | 22:30 |
| fenn | like shoot potatoes | 22:30 |
| fenn | hurr | 22:31 |
| fenn | i dunno, maybe a potato cannon is craft crap | 22:31 |
| fenn | for one birthday my dad bought me these little guns you stick in potatoes and squeeze to shoot the potato pip across the room.. i was not very happy | 22:32 |
| gene | I guess it is | 22:32 |
| gene | but mine is unique | 22:32 |
| gene | but no need to go Haruhi complex over things like these | 22:38 |
| davidnunez | There's a guy that shows up in Make a lot (Will Gurstelle?) that believes the potato cannon is the perfect hello world for kids interested in garage engineering... it's got just enough danger factor and accomplishment difficulty that can hook someone into a world of hacks for life. | 22:39 |
| gene | no it doesn't | 22:39 |
| davidnunez | for kids, gene. | 22:39 |
| gene | perchlorate production cells are the way to go | 22:39 |
| davidnunez | I guess a kid would need either the personal drive or support of great parents to build the very next thing after the potato cannon. it's the NEXT thing you build after the throwie that matters, maybe. and the next thing after that. .. maybe as long as you're continuing to build up, you're not just "crafting" | 22:40 |
| fenn | explosives and garage engineering is a fine line.. | 22:41 |
| gene | sigh... | 22:41 |
| gene | never built one though | 22:41 |
| fenn | not sure it's the best thing to be promoting | 22:41 |
| fenn | if you had an army of telepresence robots, then fine, blow stuff up | 22:42 |
| fenn | but we dont have the ability to regenerate limbs and organs yet | 22:42 |
| gene | well now that I think about it a chlorate production cell is pretty dangerous to the environment | 22:42 |
| fenn | even professionals get killed, see what happened at scaled composites | 22:42 |
| gene | damn chlorate ion | 22:43 |
| gene | is toxic | 22:43 |
| ybit | bkero: did you enjoy it? would it be an organization you could see yourself working for? | 22:50 |
| bkero | ybit: Absolutely | 22:51 |
| bkero | It's the only large company I've seen that I would be willing to work for | 22:51 |
| gene | http://www.physorg.com/news153597694.html | 22:56 |
| gene | could this day get any more awesome | 22:56 |
| gene | 2 satellites collided in space! | 22:57 |
| bkero | More importantly | 23:03 |
| bkero | New futurama movie got leaked yesterday. | 23:03 |
| * fenn has a planetes flashback | 23:04 | |
| fenn | all we need is an electrodynamic tether, some solar panels, and an electron gun | 23:05 |
| fenn | blast those bits out of orbit | 23:05 |
| fenn | though apparently it was in a low orbit so they should decay quickly | 23:06 |
| fenn | haha another collision: http://www.physorg.com/news153144094.html | 23:08 |
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