| --- Day changed Mon Mar 02 2009 | ||
| Gene | miraculin lettuce | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Gene | I WANT SOMe | 00:00 |
| Gene | or some bacteria that produces a floatant and can live in the chlorinated environment of a fountain | 00:02 |
| kanzure | Gene: did you see the solutions for actuation in sharpie mf? | 00:02 |
| Gene | hold on | 00:07 |
| Gene | I | 00:07 |
| Gene | adobe just got fixed | 00:08 |
| Gene | no | 00:09 |
| Gene | didn't | 00:09 |
| Gene | shit, that paper on mf auto cfd is for low reynold #s | 00:14 |
| Gene | ie at scales where water behaves like syrup | 00:15 |
| kanzure | auto cfd? | 00:20 |
| kanzure | you mean the one about not having to solve nasty PDEs? | 00:20 |
| Gene | yeah | 00:23 |
| kanzure | that's not too much of a problem. it's still possible to do simulations on millimeter scale systems. | 00:25 |
| kanzure | (using nasty equations) | 00:25 |
| Gene | well Kanzure I tis easier just to do the math | 01:33 |
| Gene | *it is | 01:34 |
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| fenn | heh that guy steve langford resells harbor freight crap on his website at a markup | 08:00 |
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| kanzure | hm, I should probably get around to doing a writeup of my sharpie experiments to send off to diybio. | 09:09 |
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| kanzure | fenn: any brilliant ideas on actuation in my mf sharpie devices? | 09:14 |
| kanzure | thermal gradients? blowing air through a straw? gravity-only? pneumatic? laser-based (where am I going to get that type of laser anyway?)? | 09:15 |
| kanzure | fennetic.net seems to be down. | 09:53 |
| Gene | electricity | 09:55 |
| Gene | see water going uphill in my bookmarks | 09:56 |
| kanzure | I guess you could add salt to the water, and then just attach some wires at the input, and wires at the output | 09:56 |
| Gene | NO | 09:56 |
| Gene | that's not how it works | 09:56 |
| kanzure | no? | 09:56 |
| kanzure | hrm | 09:56 |
| Gene | it could work that way though | 09:56 |
| kanzure | (too bad you can't detect a single nucleotide (0.33 nm diameter sphere, roughly) with a laser pointing at a 0.1 mm bubble) | 09:58 |
| kanzure | http://nanoarchitecture.net/article/all-terrain-fluids-move-uphill | 09:58 |
| Gene | dang | 09:58 |
| kanzure | 401 unauthorized | 09:58 |
| Gene | yeah it's broken | 09:59 |
| Gene | damn | 09:59 |
| Gene | had a nice way for moving fluid in any direction | 09:59 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://nanoarchitecture.net/article/all-terrain-fluids-move-uphill | 09:59 |
| kanzure | nope, no good. | 09:59 |
| Gene | damn | 10:01 |
| Gene | look up droplet microfluidics | 10:01 |
| kanzure | I have been. | 10:02 |
| ybit | google cache: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:9PhDDUJXzy4J:nanoarchitecture.net/article/%3Fc%3DNEMS--MEMS+http://nanoarchitecture.net/article/all-terrain-fluids-move-uphill&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a | 10:09 |
| ybit | not sure how much of it you wanted, didn't really look around | 10:09 |
| ybit | it's more than a 401 though :) | 10:09 |
| Gene | there we go that's what I'm talking about | 10:11 |
| kanzure | the paper: http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/Journals/LC/article.asp?doi=b801516c | 10:13 |
| kanzure | video: http://media.rsc.org/ChemistryWorld/Wheeler_ATDA_movie_1_75_Mb.mov | 10:13 |
| kanzure | http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/ChemTech/Volume/2008/05/uphill_droplets.asp | 10:13 |
| kanzure | hm, electrodes. meh. | 10:13 |
| fenn | i dont know what you mean "actuation" | 10:36 |
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| kanzure | sometimes the bubbles just sit there. | 11:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | hmm,, http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Liquid%20Film%20Motor.pdf seems to imply a Tesla platter array with electrical fields on the platters could make a motor possible, but there's no mention of losses in the pdf | 11:25 |
| kanzure | are you actually reading through my paper archive? :) | 11:25 |
| * katsmeow-afk looks innocent | 11:26 | |
| kanzure | no, it's a good thing :) | 11:26 |
| kanzure | btw, I posted to diybio and OM re: sharpie microfluidics for anyone interested. | 11:26 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/1197606e3c3dc439 | 11:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | i figure you gave me the url for a reason :-) | 11:26 |
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| katsmeow-afk | the paper smells a lil like mhd , but it's thin film, which made me think of the tesla platters | 11:27 |
| kanzure | btw, it's a recent paper | 11:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | if the rotation is centeres just off the platters, between platters, then one side of the swirl will be pushing against the space tween the platters | 11:28 |
| kanzure | just got on slashdot, you might find some good comments in there | 11:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | you may have slashdotted yourself on purpose? | 11:29 |
| kanzure | what? | 11:29 |
| kanzure | well, it's happened before (with makezine) | 11:29 |
| kanzure | but no | 11:29 |
| kanzure | the paper is hosted on arxiv or something | 11:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | ah, k | 11:29 |
| kanzure | oops, I'm sorry, this is the recent paper: DNA_sequencing#Microfluidic_DNA_sequencing | 11:30 |
| kanzure | erm | 11:30 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Liquid%20Film%20Motor%20-%20part%202%20-%20Rotating%20Electrohydrodynamic%20Flow%20in%20a%20Suspended%20Liquid%20Film.pdf | 11:30 |
| kanzure | that's the one that has recently been on slashdot. | 11:30 |
| kanzure | say.. what if we just grew algae in bubbles? | 11:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok with me :-) | 11:36 |
| kanzure | and then the doubling time would be used so that we know that after a certain point, there should be a big ratio of algae to water within the bubble, | 11:36 |
| kanzure | which counts as 'concentrated'. | 11:37 |
| kanzure | (but then what about all this "big bulk algae growth" shit and the many acres of land we've bought? ugh) | 11:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | but you don't know that, based only on time | 11:37 |
| kanzure | true. | 11:37 |
| kanzure | LEDs? :) | 11:37 |
| kanzure | OD680 or something. | 11:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | and food and waste removal,, as well as the actual light distribution | 11:37 |
| kanzure | blah | 11:38 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 11:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | a lot of devices have been built to make alge do what we want, for hydrogen or sugar production, many didn't work | 11:38 |
| kanzure | our problem is filtering. | 11:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | like, how deep did light penetrate, and did we kill the stuff when mixing it, etc | 11:39 |
| kanzure | so we're fabricating some filters at the moment. | 11:39 |
| kanzure | but growing it in spatially confined regions might be quicker.. need to test it I guess. | 11:39 |
| * kanzure goes back to his physics lab homework. | 11:40 | |
| kanzure | how does error propagation work? if I have a time and a plus/minus error (standard deviation), how do I propagate that into the calculation of velocity? | 11:40 |
| * katsmeow-afk looks clueless | 11:41 | |
| kanzure | for instance: delta t = 0.423 +- .003, distance = 7.6 +- .2 cm, and apparently velocity from this is supposed to be 18.0 +- .6 cm/sec, but the max I'm able to find is 7.8/.420 which is 18.570, how is it +- .6 ?? am I doing something wrong? | 11:46 |
| * katsmeow-afk looks *seriously* clueless | 11:46 | |
| fenn | multiply the error percentage | 11:47 |
| kanzure | what? | 11:47 |
| fenn | man wikipedia is so bad for math explanations | 11:48 |
| fenn | i get 1.8 +- .06 cm/s | 11:50 |
| fenn | er, sorry add the error percentages | 11:50 |
| kanzure | 18.6 > 18.570, where 18.570 is 7.8/.420 (the biggest value that is possible within those error ranges) | 11:51 |
| fenn | yes i understand | 11:52 |
| kanzure | so what percentages are present here? | 11:52 |
| fenn | oh shoot i moved the decimal place | 11:52 |
| fenn | its actually 17.966903 +- 0.59786 | 11:53 |
| kanzure | explanation please :( | 11:54 |
| fenn | i think this is just rounding errors | 11:54 |
| fenn | 18.564763 vs 18.571429 | 11:55 |
| kanzure | is my method of finding the maximum ratio (i.e., 18.570) good for propagation of uncertainty into velocity? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | maximum ratio would set the upper limit, and the minimum would set the lower value. | 11:55 |
| kanzure | and then how would I find the base value? i.e., 18.0 in this case? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | just whatever's in common I guess? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | because I'm actually doing a calculation where distance=127 mm, and delta time is 0.4759 +- 0.046959 sec, so I get 242.90 and 296.08 m/sec, so I need to somehow represent this. | 11:57 |
| kanzure | I guess it's 269.49 +- 26.590 | 11:57 |
| fenn | why didnt you use the real numbers the first time | 12:01 |
| kanzure | because the first time I had feedback from the lab manual book | 12:01 |
| fenn | i think the lab manual did it wrong (0.2/.003) | 12:02 |
| * fenn squints at his numbers | 12:03 | |
| fenn | i should mention that today is probably not my best math performance ever | 12:04 |
| kanzure | why's that? | 12:04 |
| fenn | excess blah | 12:05 |
| fenn | what's uncertainty on distance? | 12:05 |
| fenn | and what's the required precision? or do they just want the "right answer" | 12:05 |
| kanzure | well, it was recorded on a mm scale | 12:06 |
| kanzure | the "right answer" | 12:06 |
| kanzure | (the right method) | 12:06 |
| fenn | bah | 12:06 |
| fenn | chicken slop | 12:06 |
| fenn | anyway, add together the absolute uncertainty | 12:06 |
| fenn | haha | 12:06 |
| fenn | how do you get +- .046959 anyway? where's that number from | 12:07 |
| fenn | i guess mm measurement would be +- 0.5mm (realistically) or +- 0.1 (according to "the rules") | 12:08 |
| kanzure | the +- 0.046959 is calculated by the standard deviation of 5 different delta t values. | 12:10 |
| fenn | bah | 12:10 |
| kanzure | ? | 12:11 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/spazzing_out.txt just keeping the record straight. | 12:12 |
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| kanzure | oh shit | 12:12 |
| fenn | i wouldnt call homework "spazzing out" | 12:13 |
| kanzure | which one is homework? | 12:13 |
| fenn | looks like the cuttlefish are loose again | 12:13 |
| kanzure | none of those are homework related. | 12:13 |
| fenn | ( http://xkcd.com/520/ ) | 12:13 |
| * fenn wonders if it's bedtime yet | 12:14 | |
| fenn | btw, for your education, the second "bah" was because finding the standard deviation doesn't mean you know the uncertainty | 12:20 |
| fenn | it won't uncover periodic or systematic error, for example, or asymmetrical errors | 12:21 |
| kanzure | so I'm being lied to | 12:21 |
| fenn | yes of course | 12:21 |
| fenn | representing uncertainty with +- is simplistic too, but it gets the job done | 12:21 |
| fenn | if you want to go nuts with statistics, check out openturns (linked by utopiah the other day) | 12:22 |
| kanzure | and R. I need to get around to acting like I care about R. | 12:22 |
| fenn | there ought to be a "physics for engineers" class | 12:28 |
| kanzure | that's what I'm in. | 12:28 |
| fenn | then why are they wanting the "right" answer rather than the satisfactory answer | 12:28 |
| fenn | i mean, in engineering (and in experimental physics) there's a certain required egree of precision for a measurement | 12:29 |
| fenn | if you dont have it, the measurements are no good | 12:29 |
| fenn | but they're teaching you that it's ok to just measure whatever as long as you quantify the error | 12:30 |
| fenn | i guess it boils down to the fact that you're not ever going to do anything with that measurement | 12:31 |
| fenn | except write it in a book somewhere | 12:31 |
| kanzure | so if I was to square the velocity (with the +- blah), do I use the same method? add the min and max, divide by 2, and then the "uncertainty" is the difference (max-min) | 12:31 |
| fenn | uh, i know there are rules for this somewhere | 12:32 |
| fenn | it seems like you'd square the uncertainty | 12:32 |
| kanzure | so if I had 224.31 +- 2.83 mm/sec, | 12:33 |
| fenn | i dont know what you mean min and max over two | 12:33 |
| kanzure | then that would be 0.0503 mm +- 8 mm/sec | 12:33 |
| kanzure | which is stupid | 12:33 |
| kanzure | oh, wait, nevermind | 12:33 |
| fenn | if one out of a zillion you get a bad value, should that count toward the uncertainty? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | no clue? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | I'm not actually learning anything here | 12:33 |
| fenn | heh | 12:34 |
| kanzure | just trying to not get kicked out of school | 12:34 |
| fenn | it all makes a bit more sense if you graph the measurements | 12:34 |
| fenn | presumably you measured distance and time once for each ball drop or whatever it was | 12:34 |
| fenn | did you understand what i mean add the error percentages? | 12:35 |
| kanzure | no, | 12:35 |
| kanzure | there are no percentages here | 12:35 |
| fenn | 0.046959/0.4759 is 9.8674091% uncertainty | 12:36 |
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| fenn | and 0.2/127 is 0.1574803% | 12:37 |
| fenn | so your final uncertainty is 10.024889% | 12:38 |
| fenn | er.. i just made up 0.2 | 12:38 |
| fenn | anyway, now you do 127/0.4759 = 266.86279 | 12:39 |
| fenn | 266.86279 * 10.025% = 26.752698 mm/s uncertainty | 12:40 |
| fenn | make sense? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | 0.4759/127 = 0.003, so .3% uncertainty? | 12:42 |
| fenn | label all your numbers with units | 12:42 |
| kanzure | 0.4759 sec / 127 mm = 0.003, so .3% uncertainty? | 12:42 |
| kanzure | I'm just figuring out how you got 0.157 % | 12:42 |
| fenn | ok now why are you dividing seconds by mm? | 12:42 |
| kanzure | why were you? | 12:42 |
| fenn | i wasn't.. i divided mm by seconds to find velocity | 12:43 |
| kanzure | 0.2/127 <- you made up 0.2, but I bet you were thinking of the 0.4759 | 12:43 |
| fenn | and mm by mm to find uncertainty percentage | 12:43 |
| kanzure | oh wait. sorry. wasn't reading the backlog. | 12:43 |
| kanzure | 0.046959 / 0.4759 comes from where? | 12:44 |
| fenn | 0.2 probably should have been 0.5 because of significant digits but i figured you would have written 127.5 if it was halfway | 12:44 |
| fenn | bad me, not doing it the "right" way | 12:44 |
| fenn | .046959 is your standard deviation, which is probably the wrong value to use but meh.. | 12:45 |
| fenn | from wikipedia: typically the reported margin of error is about twice the standard deviation | 12:46 |
| kanzure | so on another calculation, I have .56618/.00357 so my uncertainty is 158.59% | 12:47 |
| kanzure | awesome? | 12:47 |
| kanzure | well, | 12:48 |
| kanzure | .00357/.56618, which is 0.6% | 12:48 |
| fenn | ok | 12:48 |
| fenn | units are great, use them as much as possible | 12:54 |
| kanzure | yes. | 12:54 |
| fenn | if the units match up and you get the wrong answer, you probably forgot some units somewhere (angles are units, despite what the frenchies think) | 12:54 |
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| xp_prg | anyone know about devcon? | 15:42 |
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| gene | hahaha Diybio has 666 members, we are true evil now | 20:02 |
| PeerInfinity | no, it means you're the antichrist. christ is the evil one, and that asshole father of his... | 20:15 |
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| kanzure | (08:27:39 PM) Joseph Jackson: what is your take on the factor e farm? | 22:25 |
| kanzure | (08:27:49 PM) Joseph Jackson: i am considering going out there for a bit | 22:25 |
| kanzure | I wonder why not many people replied to my microfluidics post | 22:44 |
| kanzure | kinda disappointing that more people shitted out their ass about GM food bullshit than talked about microfluidics | 22:44 |
| kanzure | "Rain-X makes a beautiful hydrophobic surface." - Treadwell's suggestion | 22:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujnq2D4PtvI superman v. darkseid | 23:07 |
| gene | wait a minute? Diybio don't liek GM plants? | 23:11 |
| gene | wtf | 23:11 |
| gene | I love GM plants | 23:11 |
| gene | actually had some of those maroon carrots when they first came out | 23:12 |
| kanzure | part of the problem is that it is corporate bullshit | 23:14 |
| kanzure | so people get confused | 23:14 |
| kanzure | some hate the companies, others hate biology and want to upload into robots and live forever on the surface of a neutron star, | 23:14 |
| kanzure | others are just fucking idiots | 23:14 |
| kanzure | " | 23:23 |
| kanzure | Some glass adhesives cure in UV light. I know I've bought them in hobby stores. IIRC, these are 1-part adhesives Also avalilable are 2-part (resin & catalyst) adhesives @ auto parts stores for windshield repairs." | 23:23 |
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| kanzure | http://www.alpineglass.com/shop/detail/2289 Kemxert Ultraviolet Glass Adhesive 1 oz. $20.95 | 23:52 |
| kanzure | blah, $21 for an ounce? | 23:52 |
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