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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/mania.bib | 00:31 |
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| kanzure | Production of offspring from a germline stem cell line derived from neonatal ovaries http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Production%20of%20offspring%20from%20a%20germline%20stem%20cell%20line%20derived%20from%20neonatal%20ovaries.pdf | 00:57 |
| kanzure | " | 00:58 |
| kanzure | It has been controversial whether female germline stem cells (FGSCs) are present in postnatal mammalian ovaries. Cells from a line derived from FGSCs isolated from adult mice that were transplanted into ovaries of infertile animals underwent oogenesis and generated offspring." | 00:58 |
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| kanzure- | argh | 01:55 |
| kanzure- | wtf tito, wtf. | 01:55 |
| genehacker | huh? | 01:55 |
| kanzure- | so now he's sending emails out to all of the regional diybio lists (but not the main diybio list) trying to set up a new forum for diybio | 01:55 |
| kanzure- | something's seriously wrong with these people | 01:55 |
| genehacker | OH yeah working on writing up a DNA synthesizer project proposal for diybio | 01:56 |
| kanzure- | what type of DNA synthesizer? | 01:56 |
| genehacker | to actually give us some direction other than LET'S MAKE ECOLI THAT GLOWS | 01:56 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_synthesis | 01:56 |
| genehacker | maskless lithography DNA synthesizer | 01:56 |
| kanzure- | how would that work? | 01:56 |
| genehacker | so we can synthesize genomes the size of mycoplasma gentalium | 01:57 |
| genehacker | or however the fuck it is pronounced | 01:57 |
| kanzure- | so how would you do that? | 01:58 |
| kanzure- | DMD microarrays are not exactly DIY-friendly | 01:58 |
| genehacker | we don't use DMD microarrays | 01:58 |
| genehacker | we use a 128x128 black and white lcd screen | 01:58 |
| kanzure- | maybe I'm not seeing how this works | 01:59 |
| kanzure- | those pixels aren't exactly the size of oligonucleotides | 01:59 |
| kanzure- | or nucleotides for that matter | 01:59 |
| genehacker | yeah so? | 01:59 |
| genehacker | I don't think you understand | 02:00 |
| kanzure- | oh, maybe there are certain light-directed DNA synthesis methods | 02:00 |
| genehacker | do you understand what a photolabile protecting group is? | 02:00 |
| genehacker | that diagram explains it all | 02:01 |
| kanzure- | phosphoramidite oligonucleotide/DNA synthesis doesn't involve photlabile protecting groups | 02:01 |
| kanzure- | *photolabile | 02:01 |
| genehacker | that diagram explains it all | 02:01 |
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| genehacker | take off the protecting group put down one nucleotide | 02:02 |
| genehacker | nucleotide gets added where photolabile group was removed by light | 02:02 |
| kanzure- | what diagram? | 02:02 |
| genehacker | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_synthesis | 02:02 |
| genehacker | the maskless array diagram | 02:02 |
| kanzure- | oh heh' | 02:02 |
| genehacker | we can just use an LCD screen from a cellphone | 02:03 |
| kanzure- | so, when you remove a photolabile group via light, how do you make sure that a specific nucleotide is added, rather than one of the other three nucleotides? | 02:03 |
| genehacker | a 128x128 display would give us a very long genome | 02:04 |
| genehacker | by adding one at a time kanzure | 02:04 |
| genehacker | add one wash it off | 02:04 |
| kanzure- | how do you isolate a single nucleotide? | 02:04 |
| kanzure- | oh, okay | 02:04 |
| kanzure- | a wash step is involved? | 02:04 |
| genehacker | put on photolabile in next step | 02:04 |
| genehacker | I think so | 02:04 |
| genehacker | how else would you do it? | 02:05 |
| genehacker | What I want to do though is to figure out how to get the DNA off the chip so you can use overlap extension PCR to compile a genome | 02:05 |
| genehacker | oh OE pcr and annealing | 02:05 |
| genehacker | if we can do this we've done something rather disruptive | 02:06 |
| genehacker | and I'll admit rather scary | 02:06 |
| genehacker | but scary things are cool | 02:06 |
| kanzure- | so I'm sure you'll like this | 02:06 |
| kanzure- | jonathan cline, don't know if you've met him yet, sent me a paper the other day | 02:06 |
| kanzure- | for microfluidic PCR- there's a lot of microfluidic PCR papers out there | 02:07 |
| kanzure- | but in particular this one was on a rectangular workspace | 02:07 |
| kanzure- | and at the corners of this workspace were heating/cooling elements | 02:07 |
| kanzure- | and in the center was a spiral microchannel | 02:07 |
| genehacker | LINK? | 02:07 |
| kanzure- | so that the reactants travel through the spiral and get heated/cooled in tune to the PCR protocol | 02:07 |
| kanzure- | one moment. | 02:07 |
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| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/gkm389%20Miniaturized%20PCR%20chips%20for%20nucleic%20acid%20amplification%20and%20analysislatest%20advances%20and%20future%20trends.pdf | 02:08 |
| kanzure- | There you go. | 02:08 |
| genehacker | oh PCR | 02:08 |
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| kanzure- | yes | 02:08 |
| genehacker | that's not as fun or scary as DNA synthesis | 02:09 |
| kanzure- | right | 02:09 |
| kanzure- | oh, btw | 02:09 |
| genehacker | the cool thing though about having your own DNA synthesizer is that you could use it to test for diseases too | 02:09 |
| kanzure- | there was also a laser/LED-microvalve paper that I found recently. | 02:09 |
| kanzure- | erm, except it was valveless | 02:10 |
| genehacker | that used UV light to cause some exotic chemical to depolymerize right? | 02:10 |
| kanzure- | something about ultrasonic cavitation and tens of millions of degrees :) | 02:10 |
| kanzure- | no, not an exotic chemical | 02:10 |
| kanzure- | just water, etc. | 02:10 |
| genehacker | hmmm | 02:10 |
| genehacker | cool | 02:11 |
| genehacker | UV light and cavitation? | 02:11 |
| kanzure- | I think it was 808 nm, so infrared | 02:11 |
| genehacker | how many mw? | 02:12 |
| kanzure- | "effectively 700 MW/m^2" or something ridiculous like that | 02:12 |
| kanzure- | one moment | 02:12 |
| genehacker | if 100-200mw you can get a laser like that on ebay | 02:12 |
| genehacker | oh that's not too crazy kanzure | 02:12 |
| genehacker | that isn't very ridiculous | 02:12 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Diode%20laser%20generated%20ultrasound%20for%20human%20blood%20cell%20lysis.pdf | 02:13 |
| kanzure- | MW, not mW | 02:13 |
| genehacker | that's per meter squared | 02:13 |
| kanzure- | yes | 02:13 |
| genehacker | laser dots can be tiny | 02:13 |
| kanzure- | ref 1 from that paper: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Whole%20Blood%20Pumped%20by%20Laser%20Driven%20Micropump.pdf | 02:13 |
| kanzure- | 808 nm, 500 mW | 02:13 |
| genehacker | sounds like an ebay hair-removal laser should do the trick | 02:14 |
| genehacker | well I must go | 02:14 |
| genehacker | I've got some work to do | 02:14 |
| genehacker | been feeling sick all day, you don't think you could make a sharpie lab on a chip so I can know my enemy? | 02:15 |
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| genehacker | well AFK | 02:15 |
| kanzure- | sorry, at the moment I don't have a DNA sequencer on a chip. | 02:16 |
| kanzure- | or bacteriophage RNA decoder thingy | 02:16 |
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| kanzure- | say, this doesn't look bad | 02:31 |
| kanzure- | "Electrochemically directed synthesis of oligonucleotides for DNA microarray fabrication" | 02:31 |
| kanzure- | "Acid is delivered to specific regions on a glass slide, thus allowing nucleotide addition only at chosen sites. The acid is produced by electrochemical oxidation controlled by an array of independent microelectrodes." | 02:31 |
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| kanzure- | heh, PDMS stamping for DNA synthesis | 02:35 |
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| kanzure- | "by rolling the patterned tape past the UV LED, a light-show is played out on the microarray surface in real time" | 02:55 |
| faceface | kanzure-: link? | 02:58 |
| kanzure- | faceface: sorry, that's from my brain | 03:05 |
| kanzure- | doesn't exist yet :) | 03:05 |
| kanzure- | also, what is 3D gel electrophoresis good for? | 03:05 |
| faceface | kanzure-: that is for separating protins... oh wait... | 03:06 |
| faceface | what is the 3rd D? | 03:06 |
| faceface | in 2D its mass then charge (or charge then mass, I forget) | 03:07 |
| faceface | kanzure-: do you have a link for the lazer synthesis of affy chips? | 03:07 |
| faceface | I heard about it... I'll just google | 03:07 |
| kanzure- | affymatrix chips? no, I don't remember seeing anything like that | 03:07 |
| faceface | or oligo chips... perhaps it wasn't affy (sorry) | 03:07 |
| faceface | because I remember you guys were talking about lazer (wavelength) guided DNA synthesis | 03:08 |
| kanzure- | just uploaded: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/DIY-DNA-synth.bib | 03:09 |
| kanzure- | bibliography of techniques for DNA synthesis that are possibly useful to anybody interested in DIY | 03:09 |
| faceface | why is my desktop so broken? | 03:10 |
| faceface | sorry, its just ff | 03:10 |
| faceface | kanzure-: this is what I was on about http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/emrw/9780471142706/cp/cpnc/article/nc1205/current/abstract | 03:22 |
| faceface | DNA Microarray Preparation by Light-Controlled In Situ Synthesis | 03:22 |
| faceface | recent ff update... seems it can't load a page and do anything else at teh same time | 03:24 |
| faceface | ff is so crappy | 03:24 |
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| kanzure | fenn: wtf? | 07:31 |
| kanzure | http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/pythonocc/trunk/src/SWIG_src_modular_linux_darwin/?dir_pagestart=50 | 07:31 |
| kanzure | Jelle claims that the files were in the folder.. | 07:31 |
| kanzure | so .. why is the "Make Magazine" logo a blue background with a hammer silhouette? When was the last time you honestly had to use a hammer in any Make Magazine project? | 07:56 |
| kanzure | when I was 11 or 12 years old, I used to run a lot of different forums, and later I learned how much of a sign of immaturity it was to run around to different forums advertizing how you're going to split the community and start a new and better forum :/ | 08:05 |
| kanzure | especially just for medium-changes | 08:05 |
| kanzure | but I'm not sure how to transfer that knowledge to others | 08:06 |
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| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Controlled%20deposition%20of%20picoliter%20amounts%20of%20fluid%20using%20an%20ultrasonically%20driven%20micropipette.pdf | 09:06 |
| kanzure- | Controlled deposition of picoliter amounts of fluid using an ultrasonically driven micropipette | 09:06 |
| kanzure- | yay | 09:07 |
| kanzure- | although obvious :) | 09:07 |
| kanzure- | hm, all the way from 2003? "Development of Photolithography System with Liquid Crystal Device as Active Mask for Synthesizing DNA Chips." | 09:35 |
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| cis-action | hey | 09:43 |
| kanzure- | hey | 09:47 |
| kanzure- | "electro-optical adaptive phase plate" (OALV) <- seems to be the codeword that was being used for that | 09:47 |
| kanzure- | cis-action: what's up? | 09:47 |
| cis-action | 1. Nils from Monitor 360 emailed the list a while ago about DNA synthesis info. Have you chatted with him? | 09:48 |
| kanzure- | Yes, we talked over the phone a few months ago. | 09:49 |
| kanzure- | but I don't remember his email about DNA synthesis | 09:49 |
| cis-action | Hmm, I can't seem to find it. | 09:50 |
| cis-action | Oh well. | 09:50 |
| cis-action | 2. I agree in general with you about the forum idea | 09:51 |
| kanzure- | hrm, I wonder why these phase plates are called "light valves" | 09:52 |
| cis-action | I ended up talking to tito last night. I think he's starting to feel concerned people who live in areas with regional groups are more likely to post to the regional group instead of the main list. Somehow making a single "regional group" forum room will solve the problem for him. | 09:52 |
| kanzure- | meh | 09:53 |
| kanzure- | you guys are starting to seem really disorganized | 09:53 |
| kanzure- | people going behind each other's backs etc. | 09:53 |
| kanzure- | just saying :/ | 09:53 |
| cis-action | "you guys" | 09:54 |
| cis-action | interesting | 09:55 |
| kanzure- | by "you guys" I mean everyone who's not me | 09:55 |
| kanzure- | :p | 09:55 |
| kanzure- | actually I mean everyone who has been suggesting some really bad ideas recently, but whatever, as long as someone other than me is recognizing it | 09:55 |
| kanzure- | "liquid crystal spatial light modulator" hm | 09:56 |
| kanzure- | cis-action: what are you going to do if tito makes the forum or something? | 09:58 |
| kanzure- | just wondering | 09:58 |
| cis-action | well, about two weeks ago jason installed vanilla forums at diybio.org/forums | 09:59 |
| kanzure- | right | 09:59 |
| cis-action | and I guess tito is going to try and convince local conversations to occur there | 09:59 |
| kanzure- | I sent an email suggesting some plugins to install | 09:59 |
| kanzure- | I don't know if anyone read it | 09:59 |
| kanzure- | but basically the summary is that it's a terrible idea, unless you maybe include a mail-to-forum gateway or something | 09:59 |
| kanzure- | so that messages are passed back and forth | 09:59 |
| kanzure- | because you aren't going to get people to migrate from the mailing list to the forums, or something | 10:00 |
| cis-action | yeah, only like 20-50%? | 10:00 |
| kanzure- | dunno | 10:01 |
| ybit | i can't recall which email and when, but someone on the open manufacturing mentioned "the irc channel", i'm guessing it's this one? | 10:01 |
| kanzure- | ybit: I don't know, I don't remember that individual | 10:01 |
| kanzure- | it was on OM, recently, yes | 10:01 |
| kanzure- | erm. I mean to say I don't know which IRC channel he was referencing because I don't remember him | 10:01 |
| kanzure- | gee, I don't know of any spatial light modulator (SLM) more readily-available than an LCD.. | 10:03 |
| ybit | [Open Manufacturing] [OFF-Topic] High-Performance Computation :: from Marcos :: "Hello people, as I may have already mentioned (in the IRC channel, a few months ago)" | 10:03 |
| kanzure- | right | 10:03 |
| kanzure- | I don't remember a Marcos though :/ | 10:03 |
| kanzure- | so the LCD methods involve these huge optical lenses that are the size of monolithic desktop towers | 10:04 |
| kanzure- | that's not going to be good.. | 10:04 |
| kanzure- | cis-action: so, can you give me any more details on onsingularity for later today? do you know anything about what they might ask? | 10:05 |
| cis-action | kanzure: aaron emailed us the questions | 10:06 |
| kanzure- | okay, thank you | 10:06 |
| kanzure- | oohh.. optical logic gates via stacking LCDs together | 10:06 |
| kanzure- | oh I see the email | 10:10 |
| kanzure- | excellent set of questions. | 10:11 |
| cis-action | great | 10:11 |
| cis-action | well, I'm going to be up and running at 2:00pm at the latest | 10:11 |
| * kanzure- just updated the DIY-DNA-synth.bib file | 10:13 | |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/DIY-DNA-synth.bib | 10:13 |
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| kanzure- | in particular I've added some references that might help with DNA synthesis via LCDs | 10:13 |
| kanzure- | (think: cellphones in third world countries?) | 10:14 |
| cis-action | Ok, I've summarized my thoughts re. tito | 10:14 |
| cis-action | Problem: I think Tito has correctly noticed the beginnings of some regional exclusivity on the lists, (I think the DIYbio-London group alarmed him with their discussions about their Dough project). Conclusion: I think this is starting to happen because regional lists provide a better sense of community to the local members than does the global diybio list, so over time more and more conversations happen i | 10:14 |
| cis-action | I'm mostly interested in soliciting the relative experts that exist on iGEM teams - students and PhDs and instructors - and bringing their technical questions out in the open on a mailing list or forum somewhere. The existing moderated iGEM mailing list - for some reason - does not accomplish this and I'm confident that there has been consistent demand in the iGEM community over the last 5 years for a pla | 10:15 |
| kanzure- | to be honest, I'm okay with regional lists for organizational issues like setting up playdates | 10:15 |
| kanzure- | that seems fine to me | 10:15 |
| kanzure- | cis-action: in your first message, there is cutoff at "and more conservation i----" | 10:15 |
| kanzure- | and in the second, "5 years for a pla-" | 10:16 |
| cis-action | yeah, but I think there is inevitable social pressure to discuss community matters solely on the list | 10:16 |
| cis-action | oh | 10:16 |
| cis-action | ok | 10:16 |
| kanzure- | I liked it back when people talked about projects and ideas on the main list | 10:16 |
| cis-action | http://pastebin.com/d61d0771b | 10:16 |
| kanzure- | and then went to their separate mailing lists for organizational issues like who's going to bring the pizza :) | 10:16 |
| kanzure- | I think the main diybio list is an ok place for 'dumb questions' | 10:17 |
| cis-action | right, but I don't think there is a very strong sense of community on the main list, and hence people start to move their discussion to the regional groups, which somehow do end up with a stronger sense | 10:17 |
| cis-action | kanzure: I think so too, but see my point re; branding | 10:17 |
| kanzure- | odd, I feel strong community on the main list- what do you mean? | 10:18 |
| kanzure- | so about "experts" | 10:19 |
| cis-action | kanzure: I think we would be increasing the participation barrier for most igemmers if we had to not only convince them to join an online forum/list, but also explain why it's called diybio | 10:19 |
| kanzure- | well that's the thing | 10:19 |
| kanzure- | these are "experts" in academic labs | 10:19 |
| kanzure- | in their domain they are indeed experts and know how to operate their commercial machinery and so on | 10:19 |
| cis-action | "relative experts" | 10:19 |
| kanzure- | right | 10:20 |
| kanzure- | so relative to what? not really the DIY aspects | 10:20 |
| kanzure- | I agree that it's nice to have these folks around to offer advice and so on | 10:20 |
| cis-action | this is The Truth: the average iGEM student knows more and has done more molecular biology than the average DIYbio list member | 10:20 |
| kanzure- | eh, that's arguable.. I mean, they know it within the context of "here's a lab handed to you" | 10:21 |
| kanzure- | but maybe DIYbio will involve different techniques because of the different constraints on acquiring materials, tools etc.? | 10:21 |
| cis-action | sure they will | 10:21 |
| kanzure- | the end result of diybio isn't necessarily going to look like iGEM | 10:21 |
| * cis-action agreed | 10:21 | |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC04FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:21 | |
| kanzure- | Hi amaruk. | 10:21 |
| cis-action | "I agree that it's nice to have these folks around to offer advice and so on" - they are not around. I am trying to figure out the best way to incent them to be around. | 10:22 |
| amaruk | hi kanzure and all other persons online | 10:22 |
| kanzure- | maybe they just aren't interested in DIY? | 10:22 |
| kanzure- | ok, so let's think of it this way | 10:23 |
| kanzure- | erm, what I mean is that you shouldn't try to force diybio into something that would appeal to those people, even though it's nothing about DIY | 10:24 |
| cis-action | sure | 10:25 |
| cis-action | What makes you think I'm forcing diybio to be anything at all? | 10:25 |
| cis-action | I'm talking about something explicitly different from the diybio banner | 10:25 |
| kanzure- | you most commonly post about igem and biobricks more than anything | 10:25 |
| kanzure- | well, what about it? | 10:26 |
| cis-action | please see http://pastebin.com/d61d0771b | 10:26 |
| kanzure- | I've read it | 10:26 |
| kanzure- | I don't know what we're talking about | 10:27 |
| cis-action | ok, let's stop then. | 10:28 |
| kanzure- | heh | 10:28 |
| kanzure- | do you think that you would somehow siphon people from an iGem-community-interest community back into diybio? | 10:28 |
| cis-action | I think there would be some kind of equilibrium between the two, including the possibility of a person being in both groups at once. But I don't care about that too much - my goal isn't primarily diybio outreach. It's the development of a place full of technically relevant information and people who know a lot more. | 10:31 |
| kanzure- | may I ask why you have that goal? | 10:32 |
| kanzure- | huh. gelatin has been used for microfabrication via visible color wavelength photolithography | 10:34 |
| cis-action | Because I think the primary disadvantage for non-traditional scientists is access, formally and informally, to a group of technically and/or theoretically knowledgeable peers | 10:36 |
| kanzure- | what's the largest LCD on the market in terms of meters? | 10:45 |
| kanzure- | wait. what was that paper about a microlens array for an LED cap? | 10:48 |
| -!- any77769791 is now known as katsmeow | 10:48 | |
| kanzure- | huh. integration of light source and photomask into a single super-uber-hacked LED | 10:48 |
| kanzure- | "matrix addressable microemitters" | 10:49 |
| kanzure- | oh, wait. two different things there. one is uber-tiny LEDs, the other is the idea of addressing regions of the LED color-cap. | 10:51 |
| kanzure- | I wonder if a drop of water is an effective microlense for microemitter/micro-LEDs | 10:53 |
| katsmeow | glycerin? | 11:00 |
| kanzure- | heh heh | 11:01 |
| kanzure- | looks like I already found a good way to fabricate a microemitter array | 11:01 |
| kanzure- | in /books/papers/microfluidics/ there's a paper about using capillary action to let a polymer go through some microchannels to form a circuit for organic microLEDs | 11:01 |
| kanzure- | but then it uses vacuum deposition for the aluminum electrodes :( don't know how to get around at the moment | 11:02 |
| katsmeow | hmm,, two microgrooved faced plates, face to face at 90 degrees, they mix and be useable where the channels cross? | 11:02 |
| kanzure- | whaT? | 11:03 |
| kanzure- | imagine a microchannel fabricated in PDMS by pouring around a piece of hair :p and then removing the hair afterwards or something | 11:03 |
| katsmeow | just thinkingout loud,, i'll think with less typing now.... | 11:03 |
| kanzure- | no, it's fine | 11:03 |
| kanzure- | was just wondering what you meant | 11:03 |
| katsmeow | oh, how to get microdots in a grid | 11:04 |
| kanzure- | more or less | 11:04 |
| kanzure- | so what I was thinking about originally was photolithography for DNA synthesis | 11:04 |
| kanzure- | LCDs are one method to do this- but you need some optical lenses to make everything work just right | 11:04 |
| kanzure- | another way to do this would be a micro-array of LEDs | 11:04 |
| kanzure- | so I'm looking into micro-emitter/LED fabrication methods- | 11:05 |
| katsmeow | if the material in the groove was also conductive, but photily active only where they crossed, and only in one direction, then you get dots of lite, and the grooves themselves are your x-y address lines | 11:05 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Patterning%20polymer%20LEDs%20by%20micromolding%20in%20capillary%20at%201e-6%20torr.pdf | 11:05 |
| kanzure- | huh? an addressing scheme? but what if you wanted to have many of them on at once? | 11:06 |
| kanzure- | I don't think it would be too hard to come up with an addressing-matrix-circuit-stuff | 11:06 |
| katsmeow | persiatance of vision | 11:06 |
| kanzure- | I mean, it sucks to design those sorts of circuits, but. | 11:06 |
| kanzure- | oh | 11:06 |
| katsmeow | or phosphors | 11:06 |
| kanzure- | yeah, I guess it doesn't have to be active for too long | 11:06 |
| kanzure- | if there's a ridiculously fast switching time, who cares? :) | 11:06 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Patterning%20photo-curable%20light-emitting%20organic%20composites%20by%20vertical%20and%20horizontal%20capillarity%20-%20a%20general%20route%20to%20photonic%20nanostructures.pdf | 11:07 |
| katsmeow | erg | 11:07 |
| kanzure- | ugauga? | 11:08 |
| katsmeow | nah, can't get the flash videos from http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/yourfriendatom.html | 11:08 |
| kanzure- | but that's because flash sucks | 11:08 |
| * katsmeow nods | 11:09 | |
| kanzure- | any ideas on a completely polymer-based LED? or something | 11:09 |
| katsmeow | most humans online now don't *remember* the civilian uses proposed for nukes back then, and don't have the same sense of horror at the thought they'd actually go thru with them | 11:09 |
| kanzure- | because that micromolding paper is great, but the electrodes are placed by vacuum deposition | 11:09 |
| katsmeow | no, other than make it possible before we run out of the raw materials for making such | 11:10 |
| kanzure- | is Project Orion (atom bomb propulsion) civilian? | 11:10 |
| katsmeow | yeas,, well, NASA | 11:10 |
| katsmeow | the *current* Orion project is not nuke-based, it's just huge | 11:10 |
| katsmeow | the *current* Orion is a oversides Apollo | 11:11 |
| kanzure- | yeah I know | 11:12 |
| katsmeow | there is still some thought tomerging the *old* Orio with the big gun approach, so the nuke fire underground to acchieve escape velocity at the surface,, still no way to prevent fissile product emmisions | 11:12 |
| kanzure- | haven't they ever heard of namespace conflicts | 11:12 |
| -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-174-135.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 11:13 | |
| kanzure- | http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/08/sonys-1-000-000-1-contrast-ratio-27-inch-oled-hdtv/ | 11:19 |
| katsmeow | i hear the blue in oled still fades out in a few yrs? | 11:21 |
| kanzure- | hm. what's the problem with OLEDs again? | 11:24 |
| kanzure- | there was some particular reason why they weren't catching on or something | 11:25 |
| kanzure- | I want to be sure me trying to manufacture OLEDs isn't going to be some silly-impossible Don Quixote quest | 11:25 |
| kanzure- | "Indium tin oxide is commonly used as the anode material. It is transparent to visible light and has a high work function which promotes injection of holes into the polymer layer. Metals such as aluminium and calcium are often used for the cathode as they have low work functions which promote injection of electrons into the polymer layer." | 11:26 |
| kanzure- | "The production of small-molecule displays often involves vacuum deposition, which makes the production process more expensive than other processing techniques (see below)." | 11:27 |
| katsmeow | Indium was one of the materials suggested to run out with mass production of silicon pv panels | 11:27 |
| kanzure- | "Recently a hybrid light-emitting layer has been developed that uses nonconductive polymers doped with light-emitting, conductive molecules. The polymer is used for its production and mechanical advantages without worrying about optical properties. The small molecules then emit the light and have the same longevity that they have in the SM-OLEDs." | 11:27 |
| kanzure- | oh yay. that doesn't sound good at all, katsmeow | 11:27 |
| * katsmeow nods | 11:27 | |
| kanzure- | "electroluminscent conductive polymer" | 11:28 |
| kanzure- | hm, polyfluorene | 11:28 |
| kanzure- | or light-emitting polymers | 11:29 |
| kanzure- | can anyone get me this paper? "Ink-jet-printable phosphorescent organic light-emitting-diode devices" | 11:33 |
| kanzure- | http://dx.doi.org/10.1889/JSID16.12.1229 | 11:33 |
| katsmeow | can you register the led over the previously printed electronics with a printhead, at a interestingly small scale? | 11:34 |
| kanzure- | that would be neat. | 11:38 |
| kanzure- | but first I need to get the paper :p | 11:38 |
| katsmeow | damned forking nosey .gov sites,, no way to dl the pdf on http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cover.jsp;jsessionid=14FFB880A12A936C587B0CD04CAC717F?purl=/408695-xwEMy7/webviewable/ without making up a new http header that tells them what they want to know, and i dunno what it is they want to know | 11:45 |
| kanzure- | ok, here's a late 90s paper for 250 micron diameter OLEDs | 11:46 |
| kanzure- | using PVK, indium tin oxide, and a reflecting cathode | 11:47 |
| kanzure- | hrm. still using indium tin oxide. blah. | 11:47 |
| faceface | kanzure-: that DOI url just says 'OK' in links | 11:55 |
| faceface | Ink-jet-printable phosphorescent organic light-emitting-diode devices - what is the pdf called | 11:56 |
| faceface | ? | 11:56 |
| kanzure- | I don't know what the PDF is called :( | 11:58 |
| kanzure- | that's the title of the paper | 11:58 |
| katsmeow | so i switched to IE to dl that pdf from the .gov site, and locked up IE AND firefox AND the desktop display | 11:58 |
| faceface | I just moved all my pdfs... | 11:58 |
| faceface | nothing new turns up | 11:58 |
| kanzure- | katsmeow: need some help? | 11:58 |
| kanzure- | faceface: what? | 11:58 |
| katsmeow | i taskmaster'd the IE session to death, i'm ok | 11:59 |
| faceface | lynx here says 'buy the pdf', links from an inst just says 'OK' I wondered if a pdf had appeared | 11:59 |
| faceface | wget on the DOI does weird things.. | 11:59 |
| kanzure- | faceface: yeah, that's why I can't find the PDF :) | 12:00 |
| katsmeow | yeas, wget doesn't half work anyhow, --keep-session-cookies isn't defined anywhere cept the help file :-/ | 12:00 |
| katsmeow | neither does restrict directories | 12:01 |
| katsmeow | i run wget thru a proxy i can better configure | 12:01 |
| katsmeow | that way i can change things as wget is running too :-) | 12:01 |
| fenn | indium is not going to run out | 12:01 |
| katsmeow | it was either indiumor iridium | 12:01 |
| fenn | it's the same idiocy that's been applied to uranium by peak oil fearmongers | 12:02 |
| katsmeow | i believe it was indium | 12:02 |
| katsmeow | oh, uranium prolly won't run out, it's just the chinese will have bought it all up | 12:02 |
| fenn | ZOMG we only have 4000 tons of Indium in stock! | 12:02 |
| katsmeow | it wasn't the zero-point running-out that was the problem, it was price increases due to *thinking* it was reare, witness 2008 $150/barrel oil | 12:03 |
| faceface | can't find a url | 12:03 |
| fenn | well that's even worse to fearmonger about then | 12:04 |
| kanzure- | faceface: did you see the AIP URL? | 12:04 |
| faceface | no | 12:04 |
| kanzure- | faceface: http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JSIDE8000016000012001229000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes | 12:04 |
| faceface | No results found for "Ink-jet-printablephosphorescent organic light-emitting-diode devices". | 12:04 |
| kanzure- | check that link :) | 12:04 |
| faceface | links just comes up 'OK' | 12:05 |
| faceface | no idea what that means! | 12:05 |
| kanzure- | hrm | 12:05 |
| kanzure- | what about this? http://dx.doi.org/10.1889/JSID16.12.1229 | 12:05 |
| faceface | same | 12:06 |
| -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk | 12:06 | |
| kanzure- | guess you don't have access .. | 12:06 |
| kanzure- | it loads up the abstract for me | 12:06 |
| faceface | ok, you got it now? | 12:07 |
| kanzure- | no | 12:07 |
| kanzure- | I need the paper, not the abstract | 12:07 |
| faceface | /getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=JSIDE800001600001200 | 12:07 |
| faceface | 1229000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal | 12:08 |
| faceface | where is that relative to do you think? | 12:08 |
| kanzure- | dunno :( | 12:08 |
| faceface | i.e. where does the doi send you? | 12:08 |
| faceface | http://scitation.aip.org/ ? | 12:09 |
| faceface | lemmy try | 12:09 |
| kanzure- | yeah | 12:09 |
| faceface | takes me to a login page | 12:10 |
| kanzure- | hrm.. | 12:10 |
| faceface | 'if you would like to purchase this article...' | 12:10 |
| faceface | 15 dollar | 12:10 |
| faceface | I'll write and tell them my mom only lets me spend 10 | 12:10 |
| nsh | email the author | 12:11 |
| kanzure- | gasp! social communication?! | 12:11 |
| nsh | you do far more of it than i :-) | 12:11 |
| faceface | J. Soc. Inf. Display 16, 1229 (2008) | 12:11 |
| kanzure- | nsh: doesn't count, you don't complain about me yapping all the time | 12:12 |
| * faceface tries the live chat link through links | 12:12 | |
| faceface | why not chat and say... oh I baught this liek one month agoo maaan | 12:13 |
| faceface | fail | 12:13 |
| faceface | well.. this is as close as I can get "http://scitation.aip.org//getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=JSIDE8000016000012001229000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal" that link may be usefull for someone at a different institute | 12:14 |
| faceface | night | 12:14 |
| kanzure- | night | 12:17 |
| kanzure- | updated DIY-DNA-synth.bib again | 12:18 |
| fenn | given $20/4GB RAM, $25 for 16GB SD card, and $125 for a 30GB SSD, um, why am I supposed to buy the SSD? | 12:24 |
| kanzure- | maybe there's a way to use LCDs without having to use the nasty optics/lense | 12:24 |
| kanzure- | why haven't we seen anybody printing sheets of LEDs with inkjets showing up in Make Magazine and that circle in general? | 12:25 |
| kanzure- | don't these people love LEDs? | 12:25 |
| fenn | because they 1) dont know how to hack an inkjet and 2) don't have the nasty chemicals necessary | 12:26 |
| kanzure- | that's what I keep forgetting about these polymer techs | 12:26 |
| kanzure- | 'nasty' polymers. hrm. | 12:26 |
| kanzure- | should I avoid them? | 12:26 |
| fenn | the LED paper was inorganic | 12:27 |
| kanzure- | did you see the micromolding one? that was an organic polymer IIRC | 12:27 |
| fenn | most semiconductor dopants are toxic heavy metals | 12:27 |
| kanzure- | what about PDOF, PPV, or MEH-PPV? | 12:28 |
| fenn | i dont even know what those are | 12:29 |
| kanzure- | polymers | 12:29 |
| kanzure- | okay, nevermind | 12:29 |
| kanzure- | if it's not something you know it's probably not all that common | 12:29 |
| fenn | do you know any organic chemists? | 12:31 |
| fenn | heh never thought i'd have trouble looking for an organic chemist | 12:32 |
| fenn | (both parents taught in organic chemistry dept) | 12:32 |
| kanzure- | treadwell | 12:33 |
| kanzure- | oh, so your parents got it on? to the fumes of nasty organic solvents? hehe | 12:33 |
| fenn | yeah and i turned out fine, right? :\ | 12:34 |
| kanzure- | yes? | 12:34 |
| fenn | actually they spent more time in offices/computer lab than a real lab | 12:35 |
| fenn | the place still smelled weird though | 12:36 |
| kanzure- | hah | 12:36 |
| fenn | kind of a fresh paint smell everywhere | 12:36 |
| kanzure- | hm. now I'm worried. | 12:39 |
| kanzure- | Hong H Lee / Kuhp have shown up again in my search results | 12:39 |
| kanzure- | this time with a way of doing cathode fabrication via pressing | 12:39 |
| kanzure- | instead of a ridiculously high vacuum | 12:40 |
| kanzure- | which makes sense, this is what some of their other research was working with | 12:40 |
| kanzure- | but it's like an exact solution to my problem :p | 12:40 |
| kanzure- | 20x10 passive OLED matrix | 12:41 |
| fenn | pressing metal foils? | 12:41 |
| fenn | or PDMS printing stuff | 12:41 |
| fenn | what does 'passive' mean? | 12:42 |
| kanzure- | dunno. but there are active/passive LCDs apparently | 12:43 |
| fenn | they're not LCD's | 12:43 |
| kanzure- | um, so apparently they had a protruding pattern on a glass surface | 12:43 |
| kanzure- | right, but I think it's the same wording | 12:43 |
| kanzure- | so then they treat that glass surface with a "self-assembled monolayer (SAM) material, which is followed by the deposition of the cathode materila, such as aluminum, onto the whole surface" | 12:44 |
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| fenn | In a passive matrix OLED (PMOLED) display, the diodes are connected in a grid, each diode comprising an individual OLED pixel. The rows of the grid are lit one at a time using external drive circuitry. In contrast, active matrix displays include transistors within the display enabling pixels to be continuously illuminated. | 12:44 |
| kanzure- | so it relies on poor adhesion strength between the metal and SAM | 12:45 |
| kanzure- | and a greater adhesion strength between metal and the polymer | 12:45 |
| fenn | so LCD's have transistors in them already? | 12:45 |
| kanzure- | I heard something like that once, yes | 12:45 |
| fenn | hum i guess that's what TFT means (thin film transistor) | 12:45 |
| kanzure- | ack, so many nasty chemicals | 12:47 |
| fenn | how the hell do they make a fet out of polycrystalline silicon | 12:49 |
| kanzure- | is that the gap? | 12:50 |
| fenn | what gap? | 12:50 |
| kanzure- | don't FETs have a gap over which the field electric effect performs? | 12:51 |
| fenn | the gate insulator? | 12:51 |
| kanzure- | blah | 12:51 |
| fenn | i'd presume the gate is made from ITO or silver | 12:52 |
| kanzure- | so: make a microfluidic circuit that a polymer can capillary-action itself through; this circuit would be the OLED array device thingy; then use cathode contact/pressing to add in the metal cathodes. sounds simple in principle .. | 12:56 |
| fenn | yeah, sure | 12:57 |
| kanzure- | meh.. maybe it'd just be easier to go get that lense to make the LCD method work. /me will need to go look that up | 12:58 |
| fenn | what's the problem with the lens? | 12:59 |
| fenn | you know about water lenses right? | 12:59 |
| kanzure- | it's huge. | 12:59 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Versatile%20stepper%20based%20maskless%20microlithography%20using%20a%20liquid%20crystal%20display%20for%20direct%20write%20of%20binary%20and%20multilevel%20microstructures.pdf | 13:00 |
| kanzure- | pg 3 | 13:00 |
| fenn | you know your server's upload has been like 10kb for weeks right? | 13:00 |
| kanzure- | um. no? | 13:01 |
| kanzure- | ybit: are you still raping my server? | 13:01 |
| kanzure- | anyway, it's already on the other servers | 13:02 |
| kanzure- | http://sata.serveftp.org/~bryan/papers/microfluidics/Versatile%20stepper%20based%20maskless%20microlithography%20using%20a%20liquid%20crystal%20display%20for%20direct%20write%20of%20binary%20and%20multilevel%20microstructures.pdf | 13:02 |
| fenn | ok, so use a smaller panel | 13:05 |
| kanzure- | I don't know if that would help. | 13:06 |
| kanzure- | what's the condenser for, anyway? | 13:07 |
| kanzure- | oh, reduction lens | 13:07 |
| kanzure- | who cares then? | 13:07 |
| kanzure- | as long as you have something like 100x100 pixels (for starters) that's good enough for a reasonably sized array | 13:07 |
| fenn | the condenser is to collimate the lamp output | 13:08 |
| fenn | fwiw you could probably use an overhead projector | 13:10 |
| kanzure- | ok. now to figure out photolithography methods of dna synthesis | 13:11 |
| kanzure- | before I do something evil (and boot into Windows), do you know of any good webcam software? | 13:11 |
| fenn | for doing what | 13:12 |
| fenn | i've used xawtv but i wouldnt call it 'good' | 13:12 |
| kanzure- | conferencing with onsingularity and mac | 13:12 |
| fenn | ekiga is supposed to work.. | 13:12 |
| kanzure- | huh, tokbox.com actually worked (except for the microphone..) | 13:19 |
| cis-action | hey | 13:19 |
| -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.249] has quit ["Lost terminal"] | 13:22 | |
| bkero | Do any of you remember that 1950s spaceman facebook/twitter/whatever pic that someone posted? | 13:42 |
| bkero | Ahh, yes. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b7Sh_4xAn1I/SabQN3uuX6I/AAAAAAAAAxs/928iWGi7nt8/s1600-h/24w7ed0.jpg | 13:42 |
| kanzure | cis-action: I'm so confused about what just happened | 14:03 |
| kanzure | was that because of my connection or because of their servers? | 14:03 |
| cis-action | who knows | 14:08 |
| cis-action | there were several bad factors | 14:09 |
| cis-action | all of our audio was bad - but your audio was particularly bad | 14:09 |
| kanzure | heh okay | 14:11 |
| kanzure | cis-action: just sent out an email about DIY DNA synthesis again | 14:12 |
| kanzure | hope you like :) | 14:12 |
| kanzure | yay for getarticles, they got my paper :) | 14:14 |
| cis-action | seriously | 14:15 |
| kanzure | hm? | 14:15 |
| cis-action | getarticles is great | 14:16 |
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| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC04FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608]"] | 14:49 | |
| kanzure | hah | 14:58 |
| kanzure | can't believe I missed this | 14:58 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/How_bryan_wastes_his_time | 14:58 |
| kanzure | (see the line that reads 'edit') | 14:58 |
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| genehacker | microlens are easy | 14:59 |
| kanzure | genehacker: fenn suggests they aren't needed for the LCD | 15:00 |
| kanzure | also | 15:00 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM_nanolithography | 15:00 |
| kanzure | I totally forgot that I wrote that page | 15:00 |
| genehacker | there is a professor here who does microlenses | 15:00 |
| genehacker | one paper I saw on making microlenses used superglue and a 2d printer to make them | 15:00 |
| kanzure | do you need microlenses? | 15:03 |
| genehacker | no | 15:08 |
| cis-action | brian, why won't dlp chips work for diy synthesis? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | cis-action: the DMD mirrors chips? | 15:11 |
| kanzure | cis-action: those microarrays of mirrors cost a lot of money, and they are not easy to make. | 15:12 |
| genehacker | they will work | 15:14 |
| genehacker | they are just expensive | 15:14 |
| genehacker | but DLP chips are getting cheaper... | 15:14 |
| genehacker | soon there gonna be in phones | 15:15 |
| genehacker | so you can project the phones screen onto a large surface | 15:15 |
| genehacker | or have your phone display holograms if you get 2 dmd chips | 15:16 |
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| kanzure | Hey splicer. | 15:25 |
| splicer | hi kanzure | 15:27 |
| kanzure | have you been keeping up with my posts to diybio? what do you think of things? | 15:32 |
| kanzure | fenn: you and les might have some contact from a GLXP team that I'm on re: manufacturing of aerospace components | 15:33 |
| splicer | kanzure: haven't read diybio in 2 weeks... going to look at it now | 15:35 |
| kanzure | heh they have funds | 15:36 |
| fenn | the sideways hot air gun people? | 15:36 |
| kanzure | interplanetary ventures | 15:37 |
| kanzure | http://www.interplanetaryventures.org/ | 15:37 |
| kanzure | dave wanted his aerospace contracts, right? | 15:38 |
| fenn | hm. dave is an idiot | 15:39 |
| kanzure | eh? | 15:39 |
| kanzure | aerospace contracts don't make one an idiot | 15:39 |
| fenn | it takes more than a CNC machine to do high class work | 15:40 |
| kanzure | heh, "magic super axis CNC machine! go!" | 15:40 |
| fenn | anyway what did interplanetary want? | 15:42 |
| kanzure | one moment, I'm dragging the guy in here | 15:42 |
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| kanzure | Hello. | 15:43 |
| Hell_Tango | hello | 15:43 |
| -!- Hell_Tango is now known as Sean | 15:44 | |
| kanzure | so everyone else in here is unfamiliar with IVP | 15:44 |
| kanzure | but is interested in the potential interaction with a fablab etc. | 15:44 |
| Sean | i am sean aka helltango | 15:44 |
| Sean | IPV | 15:44 |
| -!- Sean is now known as Guest59250 | 15:44 | |
| kanzure | yes, IPV | 15:44 |
| Guest59250 | not IVP | 15:44 |
| kanzure | sorry | 15:44 |
| -!- Guest59250 is now known as Sean_con | 15:44 | |
| Sean_con | never mind | 15:44 |
| Sean_con | IPV or interplanetary ventures is a open source team , for space and planetary exploration and development | 15:45 |
| Sean_con | the CEO is kevin e myrick | 15:45 |
| Sean_con | the webpage is http://www.interplanetaryventures.org | 15:46 |
| Sean_con | as our latest project, we are competing in google lunar x prize | 15:47 |
| Sean_con | sponsored by | 15:47 |
| Sean_con | Interorbital systems | 15:47 |
| Sean_con | and | 15:47 |
| Sean_con | espacetickets | 15:47 |
| Sean_con | however, we are still looking for participants together with whom we can develop our systems | 15:48 |
| kanzure | so I mentioned a fablab project. I guess I haven't gone over open source manufacturing yet either or what we're doing in here | 15:49 |
| kanzure | basically if there's a chance that we can help each other out, that would be worth exploring | 15:50 |
| Sean_con | i guess there is | 15:50 |
| Sean_con | We are interested in collab | 15:50 |
| Sean_con | please ask me questions, if you are interested | 15:51 |
| kanzure | well I was hoping to poke fenn a bit | 15:51 |
| kanzure | since he's been paying more attention to the actual place than I have | 15:52 |
| Sean_con | ok | 15:52 |
| Sean_con | i fenn | 15:52 |
| splicer | kanzure: on diybio; i don't really have opinions on any goings on in the last 2 weeks there. | 15:52 |
| kanzure | splicer: come on, surely the DIY DNA synthesis is interesting :) | 15:52 |
| splicer | if it works | 15:52 |
| kanzure | well, no, not yet | 15:53 |
| splicer | you're right... it can be cool some day | 15:53 |
| * katsmeow-afk listens to pins drop | 15:55 | |
| kanzure | hm? | 15:55 |
| kanzure | well I was hoping to make fenn somewhat social but maybe that won't happen | 15:55 |
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| kanzure | Sean_con: you might be interested in reading up on some of the projects that we are related to in here | 15:56 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/om.html | 15:56 |
| kanzure | in particular the 2nd link for instance | 15:56 |
| kanzure | we're working on an open source hardware package management system, somewhat like "apt-get" or "yum" or "yast" or rpm's except for hardware, | 15:56 |
| kanzure | and ideally integrating it with a fabrication facility for further F/OSH projects. | 15:57 |
| splicer | kanz: ....I have to be antisocial too, have some stuff I have to get done before morning | 15:57 |
| Sean_con | there is no hurry, so no worries | 15:57 |
| Sean_con | yah, i see them | 15:57 |
| kanzure | okay | 15:57 |
| Sean_con | the autonomous exploration is closest to what i am up to | 15:58 |
| Sean_con | from IPV side, i would say, it is possible to collab | 15:59 |
| Sean_con | if you want, i can send a formal collab letter along | 15:59 |
| kanzure | so you mentioned asteroid mining | 15:59 |
| kanzure | do you know various path finding/landing algorithms? | 15:59 |
| fenn | uh, hi. sorry i was distracted by diybio | 16:00 |
| Sean_con | yah | 16:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: heh I already replied to you | 16:00 |
| fenn | you write too much :{ | 16:00 |
| kanzure | it's true. | 16:00 |
| Sean_con | i am working on currently more than one open source path fining algorithms for autonomous vehicles | 16:01 |
| kanzure | anything in particular? | 16:02 |
| Sean_con | for instance, autonomous vehicle , guided by it's camera to explore underwater reefs | 16:02 |
| Sean_con | it must not collide with the reef in any chance | 16:02 |
| kanzure | so, OpenCV? | 16:02 |
| Sean_con | openCV? sorry i do not know the term | 16:03 |
| kanzure | it's an open source visual computation package for problems just like that | 16:03 |
| fenn | i'm curious how you define 'open source space development' exactly | 16:03 |
| fenn | for example, do you share your CAD files? | 16:04 |
| fenn | what prevents others from advancing your work and then not releasing the results? | 16:04 |
| Sean_con | do you share your CAD files? - yes | 16:04 |
| Sean_con | what prevents others from advancing your work and then not releasing the results? - IDK, maybe they are lazy | 16:05 |
| kanzure | heh | 16:05 |
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| fenn | seems to me laziness tends to result in people not sharing, because it's too much bother to post something online | 16:06 |
| Sean_con | open source visual computation package for problems just like that - we want our truly customizable package - a couple of Fourier based methods have been tested with partial success only | 16:06 |
| fenn | but i'm more concerned about patent trolls and unscrupulous chinese factory owners | 16:06 |
| Sean_con | because there is an acute lack of easily recognizable landmark in underwater topography | 16:07 |
| Sean_con | unscrupulous chinese factory owners - i am too | 16:07 |
| Sean_con | so we for example, we release the complete cad files ( available from boris or kevin), but they are marked with -@ intellectual property of ...' stamps | 16:08 |
| Sean_con | so we for example, we release the complete cad files ( available from boris or kevin), but they are marked with - 'intellectual property of ...' stamps | 16:08 |
| fenn | uh, 'intellectual property' is a fictional concept | 16:09 |
| fenn | the only things that are recognized by the law are copyright, patent, and trademark | 16:09 |
| fenn | also there are nondisclosure agreements, but that's part of contract law | 16:09 |
| fenn | asking someone to sign a nondisclosure agreement could theoretically lead to some sort of copyleft for hardware, but it seems difficult | 16:10 |
| fenn | bleh anyway | 16:10 |
| fenn | i've stayed away from space hardware development because the minimum scale is too large for one person to make a dent | 16:11 |
| fenn | at least i don't consider suborbital to be worth doing | 16:11 |
| fenn | there really needs to be an unmanned space station in a reasonable orbit | 16:12 |
| Sean_con | we know | 16:12 |
| fenn | not government owned | 16:12 |
| Sean_con | we are targeting that | 16:12 |
| fenn | commodity electronics, communications and so on | 16:13 |
| Sean_con | but we need developers, who can stick to us, till we achive that stage | 16:13 |
| Sean_con | because the minimum scale is too large for one person to make a dent - same here, seeking help | 16:13 |
| fenn | your page has pictures of nasa and russian vehicles.. what are you working on? | 16:13 |
| Sean_con | space and planetary exploration and development | 16:14 |
| fenn | "photos, videos, and other materials are available upon request" isn't very open source | 16:14 |
| Sean_con | we do not yet have privately funded missions on moon | 16:15 |
| Sean_con | no, that is to save bandwidth actually | 16:15 |
| Sean_con | ;-( | 16:15 |
| fenn | that's a lame excuse | 16:15 |
| Sean_con | well, it's not | 16:15 |
| fenn | flickr, youtube, what's the problem | 16:15 |
| Sean_con | we have youtube and flicker channels | 16:17 |
| Sean_con | wait | 16:17 |
| Sean_con | i give you links | 16:17 |
| wrldpc | .. | 16:17 |
| Sean_con | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOeJ1jRKbZw&feature=channel_page | 16:18 |
| Sean_con | i agree that we are not totally professionals, in the sense, media is kind of disorganized | 16:21 |
| fenn | your bootstrap plan has way too much reliance on humans | 16:25 |
| Sean_con | yes | 16:25 |
| fenn | and you launch everything from the ground.. which costs too much | 16:26 |
| fenn | if an international consortium of governments doesn't have the budget, you sure won't | 16:26 |
| Sean_con | if an international consortium of governments doesn't have the budget, you sure won't | 16:27 |
| fenn | focus on business plans; what are you going to do in space once you're there? | 16:27 |
| Sean_con | and you launch everything from the ground.. which costs too much - no | 16:27 |
| fenn | if you dont know, nobody's going to give you money to develop the concept | 16:27 |
| Sean_con | focus on business plans; what are you going to do in space once you're there? - develop industry | 16:27 |
| fenn | what sort of industry | 16:28 |
| Sean_con | mine asteroids | 16:28 |
| Sean_con | colonize them | 16:28 |
| Sean_con | mine moon | 16:28 |
| Sean_con | we had to start somewhere | 16:28 |
| Sean_con | and we started | 16:28 |
| kanzure | I thought you said you already had funding | 16:28 |
| fenn | alright, well.. you need more detail | 16:28 |
| Sean_con | yes | 16:30 |
| fenn | x-plane only simulates a tiny fraction of what you need to consider | 16:30 |
| Sean_con | we do have funding | 16:30 |
| Sean_con | yes | 16:30 |
| kanzure | O.o | 16:30 |
| Sean_con | thats why we are looking for developers | 16:30 |
| fenn | honestly i dont see what you're offering that would entice someone to join | 16:31 |
| Sean_con | what you are looking for? | 16:32 |
| fenn | well, either an established (small?) business with extensive contacts with paying clients, an engineer with some solid engineering skills, or an entrepreneur who is good at convincing rich people to throw huge wads of money their way | 16:33 |
| fenn | artemis project at least has a good vision | 16:34 |
| Sean_con | either an established (small?) business with extensive contacts with paying clients - we are a non profit org | 16:34 |
| Sean_con | an engineer with some solid engineering skills - look at the team portofolio | 16:34 |
| Sean_con | or an entrepreneur who is good at convincing rich people to throw huge wads of money their way - look here: http://www.synergymoon.org | 16:35 |
| fenn | from your 'about us' page it seems there arent even any technical people? | 16:35 |
| Sean_con | define technical | 16:36 |
| fenn | ok i was looking at interplanetaryventures.org | 16:37 |
| fenn | which has 'communications and student activities' | 16:37 |
| fenn | so now i'm really confused - what is the relationship between IPV and synergymoon? | 16:38 |
| Sean_con | synergymoon is a collab project of ipv | 16:38 |
| ybit | kanzure: hah. i've raped it several times over the past month, but not this past week. it's getting all the papers, and everything on the wiki | 16:39 |
| Sean_con | collab: IPV, IOS, HSP | 16:40 |
| kanzure | ybit: I installed a module in mediawiki to export everything to xml .. maybe you would like to use that | 16:41 |
| fenn | i like the sound of this "The IOS rocket systems have been streamlined to the point that the only moving parts they employ are valves." | 16:46 |
| Sean_con | :D | 16:47 |
| Sean_con | so what are you thinking now? | 16:50 |
| fenn | i am thinking you guys have no clue what you're doing :P | 16:51 |
| Sean_con | why do you have such an idea? | 16:51 |
| fenn | oh it's just a feeling | 16:51 |
| fenn | IOS seems to have their shit together | 16:51 |
| Sean_con | we know we are aiming high | 16:51 |
| Sean_con | yes | 16:51 |
| Sean_con | we are looking for help | 16:54 |
| genehacker | IOS rocket system sounds like fluidics are involved, are they? | 16:54 |
| fenn | depends how you define fluidics i guess | 16:55 |
| genehacker | fluidics don't have moving parts | 16:55 |
| Sean_con | right | 16:55 |
| Sean_con | yah | 16:55 |
| genehacker | valves aren't fluidic | 16:55 |
| fenn | genehacker: i think they are just pressure fed big dumb boosters | 16:56 |
| genehacker | hey fenn, I got a couple papers on fluidic rocket control systems | 16:57 |
| genehacker | link to more info on this rocket? | 16:57 |
| fenn | http://www.interorbital.com/Sea%20Star%20OLV%20Page_1.htm | 16:58 |
| genehacker | white fuming nitric acid? | 16:59 |
| fenn | there should be some law that aerospace companies have to define all acronyms at the start of the document | 16:59 |
| genehacker | they tried rockets that used pink fuming nitric acid and anilene as a propellent | 17:00 |
| genehacker | but when things went wrong, the rocket would put out a pink and corrosive "cloud of death" | 17:01 |
| fenn | masten space is still in business.. that's good to hear | 17:01 |
| fenn | used to chat with their CTO | 17:02 |
| fenn | Michael Mealling | 17:02 |
| fenn | Sean_con: look at masten-space.com for example of how to put on a good show | 17:03 |
| genehacker | sigh, I forgot about this one aerospace company trying to sell heavy lift rockets or something like that a while back | 17:04 |
| fenn | they have big trucks and test vehicles now, but it wasn't always that way | 17:04 |
| genehacker | that got put out of business by the government | 17:04 |
| fenn | genehacker: the carbon fiber rockets? the guy was a banker right? | 17:05 |
| genehacker | don't know | 17:05 |
| Sean_con | fenn | 17:05 |
| Sean_con | i am not the show man | 17:05 |
| genehacker | do you know what the company is called? | 17:05 |
| Sean_con | but i will forward it to the people | 17:05 |
| fenn | it was named after the guy.. D... Aerospace | 17:07 |
| fenn | Beal Aerospace | 17:09 |
| fenn | "NASA has changed the evolutionary process for new companies and tilted the playing field against private efforts. As a result there is no role for new launch service companies except as commodity subcontractors to NASA and its primes." | 17:09 |
| Sean_con | >"NASA has changed the evolutionary process for new companies and tilted the playing field against private efforts. As a result there is no role for new launch service companies except as commodity subcontractors to NASA and its primes." the challenge is to emerge as a private group | 17:11 |
| genehacker | yeah that's them | 17:13 |
| fenn | well i could think of worse ways to waste 250 million dollars | 17:15 |
| fenn | but jeez don't just dump it into the river | 17:15 |
| Sean_con | ? | 17:18 |
| fenn | they abandoned the project and scrapped all the development equipment and prototypes | 17:19 |
| Sean_con | ic | 17:20 |
| Sean_con | anyway, we started this discussion with the idea of a collab | 17:20 |
| Sean_con | your fablab needs support like finance etc | 17:29 |
| Sean_con | we need people to help development | 17:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: I thought the CEO of Masten Space was David Masten. | 17:29 |
| fenn | sorry, CFO, not CTO | 17:30 |
| fenn | all those letters, you know | 17:30 |
| kanzure | gasp! letters! | 17:30 |
| fenn | acronym expansion considered harmful | 17:30 |
| * kanzure is still spazzing out. thinks his doctor prescribed him something bad. | 17:30 | |
| kanzure | I don't think I've stopped typing for the last 24 hours | 17:30 |
| kanzure | is this bad? | 17:31 |
| genehacker | did you go to class? | 17:31 |
| kanzure | class? | 17:31 |
| kanzure | no | 17:31 |
| kanzure | this semester "doesn't count" | 17:31 |
| genehacker | yes it is bad | 17:32 |
| kanzure | oh. | 17:44 |
| nsh | meh | 17:56 |
| nsh | are you being productive? | 17:56 |
| nsh | if so, don't worry | 17:56 |
| nsh | your doctor gave you drugs that made you productive for 24 hours. this is not something to worry about. this is something to replicate | 17:57 |
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| kanzure | oh | 18:34 |
| nsh | (theaboveisnottobeconstruedasmedicaladvice) | 18:52 |
| fenn | (old but better than the nothing they provide now) opencascade documentation http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dolbey/QtOpenCascade/doc5.1.zip | 19:34 |
| fenn | i assume there's some windows program that opens that .HLP file | 19:43 |
| fenn | wild magic is lgpl now? | 19:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: there's something through wine that runs .hlp files and .chm files or something | 19:59 |
| kanzure | or actually there's a KDE app that does it | 19:59 |
| fenn | KchmViewer, why didnt i think of that!~ | 20:03 |
| kanzure | because you're not using debtags? | 20:04 |
| kanzure | :p | 20:04 |
| fenn | yeah, because "works-with::text" would have helped find it | 20:04 |
| fenn | i wish some huge company would send me to an opencascade training seminar | 20:09 |
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| fenn | this help file sure beats nothing though | 20:13 |
| kanzure- | wasn't there something for 6.3? | 20:18 |
| kanzure- | I was just trying to get around with help(stuff) in python :/ | 20:18 |
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| kanzure- | neat, my server shows up when searching for "Remote Excitation of Neuronal Circuits Using Low-Intensity, Low-Frequency Ultrasound | 20:22 |
| fenn | openSBP is a bunch of shit, like i thought | 20:37 |
| kanzure- | anybody doing brain stem cell therapy would be silly not to include channelrhodopsin-2 genes .. it's like pure win. | 20:49 |
| kanzure- | neat, reprogramming of any mouse cell into iPS cells | 20:51 |
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| fenn | isnt that old news? thought they used human skin cells like 6 months ago | 21:02 |
| fenn | i'd love to see a fully hyperlinked version of this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell | 21:07 |
| kanzure- | that was Yamanaka and yes | 21:07 |
| kanzure- | blah | 21:07 |
| * kanzure- will get right on it | 21:07 | |
| kanzure- | but in particular I misread | 21:07 |
| kanzure- | this paper is about using mRNAs to reprogram adult cells into embryonic stem cells | 21:07 |
| fenn | i mean there's all these gene names with mysterious acronyms | 21:07 |
| kanzure- | black magic! | 21:07 |
| kanzure- | I wonder where I put my stem cell paper collection | 21:08 |
| kanzure- | behold ! http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/stemcells/ | 21:08 |
| fenn | mRNA seems like the right approach, rather than viruses | 21:09 |
| * kanzure- uploads stemcells.bib | 21:09 | |
| fenn | is it virus-free induction blah blah..pdf? | 21:10 |
| kanzure- | no, sorry, one moment | 21:10 |
| fenn | good thing they finally lifted that ban eh?~~ | 21:11 |
| fenn | just in time for it to not matter | 21:11 |
| kanzure- | just uploaded | 21:12 |
| kanzure- | it's the one with 'microRNAs' in the title | 21:13 |
| fenn | i find it interesting they actually call it 'reprogramming' | 21:13 |
| kanzure- | somebody doing something right? | 21:13 |
| fenn | it just seems like they would mumbo-jumbo it up with "induced expression factors" or some crap | 21:14 |
| kanzure- | oh, they do- look at the fourth line of the abstract | 21:14 |
| kanzure- | at least I recognize some of the gene names on the fifth line | 21:14 |
| kanzure- | god I must be sick | 21:14 |
| fenn | wrong planet | 21:15 |
| kanzure- | they forgot to give me a map | 21:15 |
| fenn | and an operator's manual | 21:15 |
| fenn | and a money-back guarantee or at least a manufacturer's warranty | 21:16 |
| kanzure- | eh just take these pills until your mom is happy with you | 21:16 |
| kanzure- | a manufacturer's warranty would be neat | 21:16 |
| kanzure- | oops, I meant miRNAs, not mRNAs | 21:17 |
| fenn | i dont know what the difference is | 21:17 |
| fenn | shouldn't that be uRNA? :) | 21:18 |
| kanzure- | mRNAs are messenger RNA molecules | 21:18 |
| kanzure- | microRNA is another structure apparently | 21:18 |
| kanzure- | you mean mu RNA | 21:18 |
| kanzure- | or I guess {\mu} if you want to be all LaTeXy about it | 21:18 |
| kanzure- | I think I've learned a sizable subset of LaTeX just by reading misprints in titles on journal websites that forgot to convert titles into unicode text | 21:19 |
| fenn | god can't they just stick all this on a plasma and send in some agrobacterium | 21:19 |
| kanzure- | a plasma? | 21:19 |
| fenn | plasmid* | 21:19 |
| kanzure- | how would that do anything long-term? | 21:20 |
| kanzure- | I guess for miRNAs, you mean? | 21:20 |
| kanzure- | for miRNA delivery | 21:20 |
| fenn | right | 21:20 |
| fenn | and skip all the intron spliceosome crap | 21:20 |
| fenn | i hate being an ugly hack | 21:21 |
| kanzure- | wah, so do something about it | 21:23 |
| kanzure- | or not | 21:24 |
| fenn | that's going to take a while | 21:24 |
| kanzure- | so, as I was saying earlier | 21:27 |
| kanzure- | there are apparently certain places in the world giving stem cell treatments for brain abnormalities | 21:28 |
| kanzure- | i.e., "here you go, an injection of embryonic stem cells for your brains" | 21:28 |
| kanzure- | if anything, I would opt to get those optogenetic neurons | 21:28 |
| kanzure- | the ones with photo-activated ion channels in the membrane | 21:28 |
| kanzure- | for laser-induced activation of regions of the brain :) | 21:29 |
| kanzure- | heh, I wonder if you could cell your stem cells as brain implants | 21:32 |
| kanzure- | s/cell/sell/ | 21:32 |
| kanzure- | (note I'm not using /g so neigh) | 21:32 |
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| fenn | i love those green glowing embryo pictures | 21:35 |
| fenn | huh did you know they made a recombinant human embryo at cornell in march? | 21:41 |
| fenn | wow this guy comes right out and says it | 21:42 |
| fenn | "abortion and euthanasia are both fine, desirable even; parents should be allowed to create designer or cloned babies; there's nothing wrong with a drug-fuelled Olympics; scientists and medics should strive to make us immortal, even on a crowded planet; our bodies should be routinely plundered after death for organs, even if the dead and bereaved do not wish it; it is morally justified to compel people to participate in scientific tri | 21:42 |
| kanzure- | cutoff at "participate in scientific tri--" | 21:42 |
| fenn | trials, just as we compel them to do jury service | 21:42 |
| kanzure- | so, alcor's out of the picture? | 21:43 |
| fenn | i guess that goes under 'strive to make us immortal' somewhere | 21:43 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, url? | 21:50 |
| fenn | bah, right after i closed it | 21:50 |
| fenn | http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/the-worlds-fi-1.html | 21:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | thanx :-) | 21:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | Ethicists, however, warn that genetically modifying embryos will lead to designer babies preloaded with socially desirable traits involving height, intelligence and coloring." <<== i believe humans should be 4ft tall max, have a 260 IQ, and be varigated purple stripes with yellow pokadots | 21:57 |
| kanzure- | these people are idiots | 21:58 |
| kanzure- | why do they get to decide what they think everyone else is desirable | 21:59 |
| kanzure- | uh | 21:59 |
| kanzure- | or however you make that make sense | 21:59 |
| kanzure- | the point is, they are idiots | 21:59 |
| genehacker | hey why not have a kid with purple strips | 22:00 |
| genehacker | it can be done | 22:01 |
| fenn | genehacker: because god hates purple stripes, that's why | 22:01 |
| fenn | may a pox fall upon thee | 22:01 |
| fenn | and may you lose all your funding | 22:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, the 4ft tall max and the 260 IQ is prolly a good idea | 22:04 |
| -!- katsmeow-afk is now known as katsmeow | 22:06 | |
| kanzure- | in vitro multi-generational embryo selection. something to put on the todo list. | 22:06 |
| kanzure- | especially with that recent oogenesis paper | 22:06 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Production%20of%20offspring%20from%20a%20germline%20stem%20cell%20line%20derived%20from%20neonatal%20ovaries.pdf | 22:07 |
| katsmeow | would those immature eggs be rightly called stems cells? | 22:08 |
| kanzure- | I thought oocytes weren't stem cells. | 22:13 |
| katsmeow | i agree | 22:15 |
| katsmeow | http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/08/mind-children-t.htm is not there? | 22:16 |
| katsmeow | +++GET 167980+++ | 22:16 |
| katsmeow | GET /my_weblog/2007/08/mind-children-t.htm HTTP/1.1 | 22:16 |
| katsmeow | Host: www.dailygalaxy.com | 22:16 |
| katsmeow | +++RESP 167980+++ | 22:16 |
| katsmeow | HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found | 22:16 |
| katsmeow | the link is on http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/the-worlds-fi-1.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure- | Are you wget-only? | 22:17 |
| katsmeow | firefox | 22:17 |
| kanzure- | they are idiots | 22:17 |
| kanzure- | 2~http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/08/mind-children-t.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure- | try that | 22:17 |
| kanzure- | they thought they had a .htm file instead of .html | 22:17 |
| kanzure- | ugh | 22:18 |
| kanzure- | this hurts | 22:18 |
| katsmeow | oh, heh, they linked badly | 22:18 |
| kanzure- | "will inevitably lead to inequality" | 22:18 |
| kanzure- | bullfuckingshit | 22:18 |
| genehacker | http://www.geocities.com/sumanchakraborty_iitkgp/research.htm | 22:18 |
| kanzure- | fine, go ahead and ignore 40 years of Freitas | 22:18 |
| genehacker | optofluidic valve | 22:18 |
| kanzure- | katsmeow: http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html is my rant that will probably reply to most of that link.. | 22:19 |
| kanzure- | past all of the greenstuff | 22:19 |
| * katsmeow fetches that too | 22:19 | |
| kanzure- | the entire basis of Hughes' rants and his control of the World Transhumanist Association is that he thinks we're all going to become inequal or something | 22:26 |
| kanzure- | and that people that are uber-rich will leave behind the uber-poor | 22:26 |
| kanzure- | but this is utter nonsense because at the time of his writing it, he was more than well aware of self-replication stuff going on in transhumanist circles | 22:26 |
| kanzure- | although the problems go a little deeper than that | 22:26 |
| katsmeow | why is it improving the human body translates to monetary measure? | 22:27 |
| katsmeow | not having cancer doesn't make you rich | 22:27 |
| katsmeow | being intelligent doean't make you rich | 22:27 |
| kanzure- | it was basically thinking that "the rich will be able to get their children to have a high IQ" | 22:27 |
| kanzure- | yeah, well, for some reason they correlate IQ and monetary income | 22:27 |
| kanzure- | because of voodoo magic statistics | 22:27 |
| kanzure- | (which I don't really care about of course) | 22:28 |
| kanzure- | so that argument usually goes to "the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, waah" | 22:28 |
| katsmeow | well, until the current bust, that was going on | 22:29 |
| kanzure- | if you're going to assume the domain of transhumanist technologies, | 22:29 |
| kanzure- | then that includes some technologies that make those arguments irrelevant | 22:29 |
| kanzure- | like self-replicators that everyone gets access to | 22:29 |
| katsmeow | they still trying to make it, some credit cards are saying "either we raise the rates, or you close the card" | 22:29 |
| kanzure- | (not necessarily grey goo nanotech) | 22:29 |
| kanzure- | so what? | 22:29 |
| katsmeow | well, the poor who don';t have cash will be paying the rich more to borrow that money | 22:30 |
| kanzure- | but why are you assuming money if there are self-replicators running around | 22:30 |
| katsmeow | ergo, the rich get more of the money the poor earn | 22:30 |
| kanzure- | I don't see what money has to do with it | 22:31 |
| katsmeow | i was replying to what you said earlier, not to grey goo or replication | 22:31 |
| katsmeow | [22:28] <kanzure-> so that argument usually goes to "the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, waah" [22:27] <kanzure-> yeah, well, for some reason they correlate IQ and monetary income | 22:31 |
| kanzure- | it's ok, I still don't understand economics | 22:32 |
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| katsmeow | i don't understand "worth" | 22:52 |
| fenn | kanzure there's a flaw in your logic | 23:05 |
| fenn | you're assuming replicators implies everyone will have free access to replicators | 23:06 |
| genehacker | hey kanzure how big of a lense do you really need to do maskless lithography? | 23:06 |
| genehacker | with an LCD screen | 23:06 |
| fenn | genehacker: approx the size of the LCD | 23:06 |
| genehacker | ok | 23:06 |
| genehacker | LCDs can be made quite small | 23:06 |
| fenn | so can DMD's... | 23:07 |
| fenn | or whatever acronym people are using these days | 23:07 |
| genehacker | plus we can mill our own lenses | 23:07 |
| genehacker | if we really had to | 23:08 |
| fenn | yeah, sure | 23:08 |
| fenn | i guess you'll be etching your own DMD's too | 23:08 |
| genehacker | fenn, my school had a microchip fab the size of garage | 23:09 |
| genehacker | http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bandai-Tamagotchi-Connexion-Black/dp/B0002B9EI6 | 23:10 |
| genehacker | how about an LCD this big? | 23:10 |
| fenn | those things have terrible contrast ratio | 23:11 |
| genehacker | bah, we don't need to worry about that | 23:12 |
| fenn | gene you should be researching what chemicals are needed for the DNA synthesis and where to get them | 23:13 |
| genehacker | you don't get them | 23:13 |
| fenn | the LCD/lens stuff is dead simple | 23:13 |
| genehacker | you make em insitu | 23:13 |
| fenn | ok, make them, whatever | 23:13 |
| genehacker | one paper said the cost of chemicals was $60 | 23:13 |
| fenn | yeah, per chip, in quantity | 23:13 |
| genehacker | hard part is the dispensing mechanism | 23:14 |
| fenn | you gotta be kidding | 23:14 |
| genehacker | and you propose to do so how? | 23:14 |
| fenn | well, i'd do it with an inkjet and skip all the lcd stuff | 23:15 |
| fenn | but since you insist on doing it the hard way.. i dunno, a pipette? | 23:15 |
| genehacker | you need a clean inkjet | 23:15 |
| fenn | what do they use as substrate? instead of paper or film | 23:16 |
| fenn | i mean what keeps the dna from washing away | 23:16 |
| genehacker | http://www.biochem.wisc.edu/courses/biochem660/Reading/Singh-Gasson_NatureBiotech_DNAarrays.pdf | 23:20 |
| genehacker | silanized microscope slides | 23:21 |
| genehacker | I don't know fenn | 23:21 |
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| genehacker | I am a bit confused on how the process works | 23:23 |
| fenn | so it's in reference 8 | 23:24 |
| fenn | McGall, G.H. et al. The efficiency of light-directed synthesis of DNA arrays on | 23:24 |
| fenn | glass substrates. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 119, 5081–5090 (1997). | 23:24 |
| fenn | jeez | 23:25 |
| fenn | $30.00 for 48 hours of access | 23:25 |
| fenn | whatever happened to buying something outright | 23:25 |
| genehacker | I can see it | 23:26 |
| genehacker | I can't understand it | 23:26 |
| genehacker | http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja964427a?cookieSet=1 | 23:27 |
| genehacker | kanzure you know what to do | 23:27 |
| fenn | not all of us have institutional access | 23:27 |
| fenn | right | 23:27 |
| genehacker | what I hate is when I find some really obscure journal | 23:27 |
| genehacker | with a really cool article | 23:28 |
| genehacker | that cost $30 to access | 23:28 |
| fenn | J. ACS isn't "really obscure" | 23:29 |
| genehacker | however this is: | 23:33 |
| genehacker | http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=562_27 | 23:34 |
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| fenn | you just want to read it because it says 'fluidic' | 23:36 |
| fenn | hell i could build one of those in my sleep :P | 23:36 |
| genehacker | it's an array of fluidic amplifiers hooked up to cheap microphones to detect where bugs are in a silo | 23:38 |
| fenn | yeah so? | 23:38 |
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| any01329918 | why not use regular amplifiers? | 23:39 |
| -!- any01329918 is now known as katsmeow-afk | 23:39 | |
| fenn | that would be too easy | 23:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | o | 23:39 |
| genehacker | because you only have access to crappy microphones | 23:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | so? | 23:39 |
| genehacker | http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0726094 | 23:39 |
| genehacker | because good microphones are expensive | 23:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | fluidic high-intensity sound **generator** concept. | 23:40 |
| fenn | i fail to see how a crappy amplifier would make up for a crappy microphone | 23:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | me too | 23:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | the one presented on that url is 180hz to 2khz | 23:42 |
| genehacker | crappy microphone isn't very sensitibe | 23:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | on the contrary | 23:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's not high fidelity, but it canbe very sensitive | 23:43 |
| genehacker | well the thing is this paper was published in 1997 | 23:43 |
| genehacker | I am still a bit puzzled as to why they are using fluidic amplifiers too | 23:44 |
| genehacker | 1967 I could understand | 23:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | to blast the bejubus outa enemies | 23:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | look at the horn's port size | 23:45 |
| genehacker | hmmm... | 23:45 |
| genehacker | fairly large | 23:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | the thing could prolly reproduce the space shuttle liftoff at proper volume | 23:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | not all frequencies, tho | 23:45 |
| genehacker | that's why they make high intensity sound generators | 23:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | [23:43] <genehacker> I am still a bit puzzled as to why they are using fluidic amplifiers too | 23:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | [23:45] <genehacker> that's why they make high intensity sound generators | 23:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, i am confused | 23:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | bbl | 23:46 |
| genehacker | no I am puzzled about the bug detector | 23:46 |
| genehacker | http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/auxetophone/auxetoph.htm#165 | 23:47 |
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