| --- Day changed Tue Apr 28 2009 | ||
| fenn | genehacker: seriously, talke to superkuh about tamiflu synthesis | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| genehacker | huh? | 00:03 |
| genehacker | well I'm not super swine flu paranoid | 00:03 |
| genehacker | is he? | 00:04 |
| fenn | not swine flu in particular, but flu pandemics in general | 00:04 |
| fenn | he's sort of taken it upon himself to be prepared for a flu pandemic | 00:05 |
| genehacker | oh cool | 00:05 |
| fenn | and it's 2009 btw | 00:05 |
| genehacker | 2009 and we still make it from a chinese spice | 00:05 |
| genehacker | guess it's effective | 00:06 |
| fenn | i guess | 00:06 |
| kanzure- | I was asking superkuh about that earlier today actually | 00:06 |
| kanzure- | for someone who is online all the time, he's not always responsive, and in this case not at all | 00:06 |
| genehacker | well there is also this one competition | 00:06 |
| kanzure- | apparently he was spazzing out about the flu a few years ago | 00:07 |
| fenn | does he still have a website? the damn thing moves around so much i cant keep track | 00:07 |
| kanzure- | http://superkuh.ath.cx/ | 00:07 |
| genehacker | what happened a few years ago? | 00:07 |
| kanzure- | http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/ | 00:07 |
| fenn | hm that looks old | 00:08 |
| kanzure- | some of the files are from a few days ago | 00:08 |
| kanzure- | I don't know how he is the way he is | 00:09 |
| genehacker | a new a genetic code table | 00:09 |
| genehacker | oh no | 00:09 |
| genehacker | don't tell me | 00:09 |
| genehacker | Superkuh actually buy some of that nonsense | 00:09 |
| kanzure- | ? | 00:09 |
| kanzure- | buy what nonsense? | 00:09 |
| genehacker | about DNA being some sort of weird holographic representation of us | 00:10 |
| fenn | hah "ADVANCED BODY ARMOR UTILIZING SHEAR THICKENING FLUIDS.pdf" | 00:10 |
| genehacker | hehe | 00:10 |
| genehacker | cornstarch and water basically | 00:10 |
| genehacker | except with silica | 00:10 |
| fenn | and PEG | 00:10 |
| genehacker | crystal growth? | 00:10 |
| genehacker | hmmm... | 00:11 |
| genehacker | sounds like he wants to grow his own pyroelectrics | 00:11 |
| kanzure- | bonus points for anyone who gets him to come in here | 00:11 |
| genehacker | hey he built a blue ray laser | 00:12 |
| genehacker | like I did | 00:12 |
| genehacker | he used more expensive diodes though | 00:12 |
| fenn | ... they used to cost more you know | 00:12 |
| kanzure- | genehacker: so today I was doing the calculations for acoustic cavitation of water | 00:12 |
| kanzure- | to produce a laminar waterjet cutter | 00:12 |
| kanzure- | via laser-induced cavitation | 00:12 |
| genehacker | ??? | 00:13 |
| kanzure- | blinky LED -> waterjet | 00:13 |
| genehacker | you have my full attention | 00:13 |
| kanzure- | cavitation shockwaves are very high pressure | 00:13 |
| genehacker | yes indeed | 00:13 |
| genehacker | I know that | 00:13 |
| kanzure- | so, if you put it close to the piece that you want to work, I'm figuring that it's basically a waterjet | 00:13 |
| kanzure- | if it's in some sort of capillary tube | 00:13 |
| genehacker | well... | 00:13 |
| genehacker | cavitation eats away propellors very slowly... | 00:14 |
| fenn | what's to keep the bubble from eating away at the sides of the cut? | 00:14 |
| kanzure- | well I'm actually not thinking of this quite well | 00:14 |
| kanzure- | what I want to have happen is a literal waterjet | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | squirt out of the end of a small hole | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | but that's not a bubble, is it. | 00:15 |
| fenn | um, that's been done. and it's expensive | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | it hasn't been done with LEDs. | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | it's been done with big expensive water compressors | 00:15 |
| fenn | led's dont have enough power to do that realistically | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | high pressure shit | 00:15 |
| fenn | yes, multi-kW pumps | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | femtosecond pulsing of LEDs of water. | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | *over water | 00:15 |
| fenn | you'd need multi-kW LED's to achieve the same rate of flow | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | or however you want to say that. | 00:15 |
| kanzure- | hrm. | 00:15 |
| fenn | at least | 00:16 |
| kanzure- | still need to think about this some more | 00:16 |
| genehacker | how about a high power argon laser? | 00:16 |
| fenn | most of the light would just go into heating the water | 00:16 |
| genehacker | like the ones on floor 7 of the etc | 00:16 |
| genehacker | well if it works you've found a new way to form metal | 00:17 |
| genehacker | photoacoustohydraulic cutting | 00:17 |
| fenn | aka "mikuru-beam" | 00:18 |
| kanzure- | treadwell was talking to me the other day about wanting to do a laminar flow fountain, and for some reason I thought waterjet cutter. | 00:18 |
| genehacker | hahahha | 00:18 |
| kanzure- | heh | 00:19 |
| genehacker | laminar flow is cool | 00:19 |
| genehacker | LAMINAR FLOW WITH LASERS | 00:19 |
| kanzure- | fenn: I'm sure we could do crazy DBZ-like effects with lasers and plasma or something | 00:19 |
| genehacker | well I did a calculation the other day | 00:19 |
| kanzure- | stuff that would probably also kill you | 00:19 |
| fenn | parabolic lasers | 00:20 |
| genehacker | with EEstor's ultracapacitors we could make a plasma gun that could shoot thousands of plasma balls | 00:20 |
| genehacker | thousands | 00:20 |
| fenn | over 9 thousand? | 00:20 |
| kanzure- | aha, here we go: | 00:21 |
| kanzure- | http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/H5N1/ | 00:21 |
| fenn | that is definitely not all of it | 00:21 |
| kanzure- | http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/H5N1/oseltamivir.txt | 00:21 |
| kanzure- | haha, synthesis of oseltamivir | 00:21 |
| genehacker | yeah | 00:23 |
| genehacker | like 36000 | 00:23 |
| genehacker | and that's with one $40(OR SO THEY SAY) capacitor pack and a decent power setting | 00:23 |
| genehacker | plasmoids won't last that long though | 00:24 |
| fenn | i think you have to be either zenn-motors or lockheed-martin to actually buy one | 00:24 |
| genehacker | you could shoot 3 really long lasting ones | 00:24 |
| genehacker | sigh, so true fenn | 00:24 |
| genehacker | I want one so bad! | 00:24 |
| genehacker | a 1 kwh one that is | 00:25 |
| fenn | yep that'd be plenty for various mischief | 00:25 |
| genehacker | yeah | 00:26 |
| fenn | er, you know kanzure-, people probably have no idea wtf oseltamivir is | 00:26 |
| genehacker | more than enough to EMP a bunch of things | 00:26 |
| kanzure- | oh. | 00:27 |
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| kanzure- | it's not like it's quickly become the most popular compound in the news or anything | 00:27 |
| genehacker | it is | 00:28 |
| kanzure- | fenn, is there some trick to writing firefox extensions? | 00:39 |
| kanzure- | it's like this documentation is cryptic or something | 00:39 |
| fenn | most documentation is | 00:42 |
| fenn | in such a situation the best thing to do is look at example code | 00:42 |
| fenn | or just google for the answer | 00:42 |
| kanzure- | right | 00:43 |
| kanzure- | this is why I hate this sort of programming though | 00:44 |
| kanzure- | everything I know about it is just a matter of previous queries I have put into google | 00:44 |
| kanzure- | for hours on end trying to come up with some mundane solution to a stupid problem that shouldn't be there in the first place | 00:44 |
| kanzure- | most firefox extensions are dull or don't do what I want. it's odd. but otherwise, yeah, pick-and-steal is the method of choice | 00:45 |
| kanzure- | ok, maybe I'll just give up on the GUI part of this | 00:51 |
| fenn | sounds like programming, yep | 01:03 |
| splicer | I'm sitting with a big chunk of code I'm afraid to touch even though I wrote it myself... I've got to start doing TDD. | 01:08 |
| fenn | TDD? | 01:12 |
| fenn | nm | 01:12 |
| splicer | (there is something beautiful in having the system test itself while I'm sleeping) | 01:16 |
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| kanzure | http://www.citeulike.org/groupfunc/8132/home BCI paper reading group | 01:28 |
| kanzure | unfortunately none of the papers look worthwhile | 01:28 |
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| faceface | re above bubbles, you can use sono-poration to kill cancer cells or to specifically inject medicine | 03:05 |
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| kanzure | http://singularityhub.com/2009/04/28/do-it-yourself-biohacking/ | 08:17 |
| * kanzure reads | 08:17 | |
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| kanzure | http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Org/zyvexmail.txt zyvex listserv ? | 08:54 |
| kanzure | that singularityhub article was poorly written. | 09:04 |
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| kanzure | so why haven't I been focusing on agrobacterium | 11:10 |
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| kanzure | hrm. need to increase the expression of lactifiers. | 12:29 |
| kanzure | "Lactifiers secrete latex and are dispersed throughout most plant tissues." | 12:29 |
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| kanzure | hah | 12:35 |
| kanzure | a protocol for the production of transgenic tea | 12:35 |
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| kanzure- | I really really like freeze-thaw genetic transformation of agrobacterium | 13:18 |
| kanzure- | hrm. I wonder if we could do photolithography of latex from dandelions. | 13:20 |
| kanzure- | does latex polymerize? isn't it polymerizable in the presence of heat or something? | 13:20 |
| kanzure- | ah, nanosphere lithography (NIL) using nm-diameter latex spheres. eh. | 13:22 |
| kanzure- | "latex particle lithography" | 13:22 |
| kanzure- | there's a patent for UV curable latexes | 13:23 |
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| kanzure | that article was so terrible that drew endy emailed me to complain | 17:14 |
| kanzure | http://epicycle.org/ campbell's blog | 17:17 |
| kanzure | http://epicycle.org/2006_10_01_archive.html | 17:18 |
| kanzure | planetary gear? | 17:18 |
| kanzure | ah, read this one, fenn: http://epicycle.org/2006_06_01_archive.html | 17:19 |
| kanzure | pneumatic bicycle | 17:20 |
| kanzure | who would want compressed air between their knees | 17:20 |
| kanzure | sounds like a bad idea | 17:20 |
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| kanzure | hey cis-action | 17:35 |
| kanzure | so, agrobacterium | 17:35 |
| cis-action | ok | 17:36 |
| cis-action | (btw Aaron updated the article, not sure if that was clear) | 17:36 |
| kanzure | I think Superkuh did this project a while back | 17:36 |
| kanzure | anyway, what he did in particular was hunt down agrobacterium in his forests | 17:36 |
| kanzure | and then cultivated some strains | 17:36 |
| kanzure | and in particular, potted some dandelions | 17:36 |
| kanzure | dandelions and lettuce produce a sappy substance of latex | 17:36 |
| kanzure | and in particular, dandelions can be made to produce specific proteins in the latex matrix | 17:37 |
| kanzure | so I think he was using it to produce some particular proteins (I'm not sure though) | 17:37 |
| kanzure | (it's probably a project sitting in a corner of his basement, to be honest) | 17:37 |
| kanzure | Taraxacum officinale (Dandelion) as an expression system for recombinant proteins | 17:37 |
| kanzure | I think diybio-boston should go on a nature hike with a biologist from a university to go find some agrobacterium samples | 17:38 |
| cis-action | that would be very awesome | 17:39 |
| cis-action | do you have any pointers to superkuhs work? | 17:39 |
| kanzure | http://superkuh.ath.cx/ | 17:39 |
| kanzure | search for 'taraxacum' | 17:39 |
| cis-action | also, do we log hplusroadmap? that seems like it would be useful | 17:40 |
| kanzure | yes, we log | 17:40 |
| kanzure | however, I insult you all the time in here so I don't know if that'd be cool or not | 17:40 |
| kanzure | :p | 17:40 |
| cis-action | ha ha ha | 17:40 |
| cis-action | I don't care | 17:40 |
| kanzure | fantastic. | 17:41 |
| kanzure | also, another recent paper that I was reading | 17:41 |
| cis-action | I'll just leave in a huff and then come back 15 minutes later | 17:41 |
| kanzure | was about coconut water | 17:41 |
| kanzure | if you insert plasmids into coconut water (directly), the nuclei in the coconut milk will take up the DNA and express the proteins | 17:41 |
| kanzure | unfortunately I do not have a coconut tree :( | 17:41 |
| kanzure | more stuff here: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/meh/agrobacterium/ | 17:42 |
| kanzure | the agar substitute he was using was laundry starch + potato powder + semolina (2:1:1) | 17:43 |
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| kanzure | hm he was planning the coconut experiment | 17:46 |
| kanzure | http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/PROJECTS/PROJECT_Coconut/coconut_002.jpg | 17:46 |
| kanzure | I like the "BLOW UP LAB ?" crossed out on the page | 17:46 |
| kanzure | or this: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/PROJECTS/PROJECT_Coconut/bioreactor_01.jpg | 17:47 |
| kanzure | heh he was going to do 20 micron ultrafiltration | 17:48 |
| cis-action | one sec | 17:51 |
| cis-action | ok | 18:05 |
| cis-action | I have to step out for a pre-dinner errand | 18:05 |
| cis-action | I'll come back to this discussion | 18:05 |
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| kanzure | cis-action: hey | 19:17 |
| kanzure | sorry, I had a meeting with someone | 19:17 |
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| kanzure- | I}ruid: hey. | 19:22 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Apr 28 19:45:07 2009 | ||
| --- Log opened Wed May 06 08:46:50 2009 | ||
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| fenn | hah. chopped all those knobbly things off my bike tire, now it works | 08:53 |
| kanzure | erm, how long did you spend on that | 08:56 |
| kanzure | maybe you shouldn't tell me | 08:56 |
| fenn | about half an hour | 09:00 |
| fenn | in the process i found that i had two broken spokes | 09:01 |
| kardan__i | kanzure this is what i thought of: http://oshw.0xb5.org/ | 09:10 |
| fenn | two projects? | 09:14 |
| fenn | oh this is a demo of the web based database editor | 09:14 |
| kardan__i | the content doesnt matter | 09:14 |
| fenn | the 'depends' field is where things get tricky | 09:14 |
| kardan__i | everybody may edit it atm | 09:14 |
| fenn | it's not so easy as with software where you just say 'requires such n such library, end of story' and it's no big deal for anyone to download that library | 09:15 |
| kardan__i | depends should point to another project | 09:15 |
| kardan__i | yes | 09:15 |
| fenn | we've gone over this at length.. i'd love to share some files with you but my webserver's down | 09:16 |
| kardan__i | at least instructions are necessary how to include other peaces | 09:16 |
| kardan__i | examples would be great. you can send them to kardan@brueckenschlaeger.de | 09:17 |
| fenn | i've been hoping someone would come help write a web interface for a long time now | 09:21 |
| fenn | but the back-end is still barely even started | 09:21 |
| fenn | i dont think a relational database is going to cut it | 09:22 |
| fenn | especially not with distributed development of the database | 09:22 |
| kardan__i | with such a db interface we can create files of every we like, i just need to write an exporter | 09:22 |
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| kardan | mh maybe its not best but i have no better solution yet | 09:23 |
| fenn | ok. at worst you could just show some text forms to edit the raw yaml | 09:23 |
| fenn | and store the yaml in the database | 09:23 |
| fenn | but that is sorta pointless | 09:24 |
| fenn | you want to do something like 'select from screws where thread = M8' right? | 09:24 |
| kardan | sort of. especially i think of a material table which enables much more | 09:26 |
| fenn | yeah. it's hard to know where to begin | 09:26 |
| kanzure | "microplasma powder deposition" <- heh. | 09:26 |
| fenn | kanzure has scraped some material databases | 09:26 |
| fenn | i'm not really sure of the utility though since we don't know where to actually get most of them | 09:27 |
| kardan | for instance a motherboard could have some materials as provides and a computer would list it a s needed material / depend | 09:27 |
| kanzure | except for mindat | 09:27 |
| fenn | i mean it wouldn't be hard to go through mcmaster.com or onlinemetals.com and make a reasonably complete materials selection | 09:27 |
| kanzure | soo | 09:28 |
| kanzure | I think I might leave out symbolic equations | 09:28 |
| fenn | oh, that's what we were calling a 'package' | 09:28 |
| kanzure | if I do, it's less awesome | 09:28 |
| kanzure | but doable | 09:28 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think mathematical models are useful but they odnt always exist so it shouldnt be a requirement | 09:28 |
| kanzure | but where would they go? | 09:29 |
| fenn | it's not very hard to implement though, see my screw thread force calculation for example | 09:29 |
| kanzure | if they are available, for, say, a gear? | 09:29 |
| fenn | class method | 09:29 |
| kanzure | that doesn't explain anything | 09:29 |
| fenn | inherit methods from more generic classes for more automagical solution | 09:29 |
| fenn | but you never get to 100% magic | 09:29 |
| fenn | you have to read the manual at some point | 09:29 |
| fenn | i havent read albert's paper | 09:30 |
| kanzure | I don't recommend it | 09:30 |
| kanzure | so, in the case of a-design, the equations were being constructed by taking "through" and "across" variables | 09:31 |
| kanzure | erm | 09:31 |
| fenn | my idea of a gear train is it has some function that describes the relationship between input and output positions and forces | 09:31 |
| fenn | yeah, except without the stupid names like 'through' and 'across' :P | 09:31 |
| kanzure | in the "control point" data structure, basically campbell had some variables that defined the derivatives and integrals for going in certain directions | 09:31 |
| kanzure | well, I was hoping reading his source code would help explain things | 09:31 |
| kanzure | haven't got around to that today yet | 09:31 |
| fenn | reading the source code almost never helps explain things | 09:31 |
| fenn | welp i wish i had read this stuff, now i'm going to go make a fool of myself yes? :) | 09:32 |
| kanzure | not really | 09:32 |
| fenn | campbell called if functional parameter right? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:33 |
| fenn | not control point | 09:33 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:33 |
| fenn | ok so, what is an fp? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | it is like what I am calling 'control point' heh' | 09:33 |
| fenn | is it just some numbers that plug into super-duper universal modeling equations? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | except his FP thingy is tailored for something like 'bond graphs' | 09:33 |
| kanzure | err | 09:33 |
| kanzure | not really | 09:33 |
| fenn | i dont know what a bond graph is either | 09:33 |
| kanzure | so in the FP data structure there is a sub list called MG-change | 09:33 |
| kanzure | and this MG-change structure has a few arrays: through[n], across[n] | 09:34 |
| kanzure | each value in the arrays is an equation | 09:34 |
| kanzure | where n = number of ports or interfaces | 09:34 |
| kanzure | somehow these equations are assembled together by doing certain path traversals | 09:34 |
| kanzure | through the design. | 09:35 |
| fenn | ok | 09:35 |
| fenn | so they just use the same equations for everything, which is what i said | 09:35 |
| kanzure | in this paper, http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Guiding%20conceptual%20design%20through%20behavioral%20reasoning%20-%20Welch%20-%20Dixon%20-%201994.pdf | 09:35 |
| kanzure | they use some sort of 'directional derivative' (pg 4) | 09:35 |
| kanzure | which is the stuff about either directly proportional or inversely proportional | 09:36 |
| kanzure | (or no proportional relation) | 09:36 |
| kanzure | the equations though don't really seem to be per-component/class, but instead per-port. | 09:37 |
| kanzure | which is weird. | 09:37 |
| kanzure | I've been asking campbell why he thinks this bond graph stuff is necessary, and why can't it just work by resolving the units | 09:37 |
| fenn | it shouldnt be proportional vs inversely proportional though; should be function vs its inverse | 09:37 |
| kanzure | well in the equations I mean, er | 09:37 |
| fenn | inverse like f(inverse(x)) = x | 09:37 |
| kanzure | ok, I don't have it | 09:38 |
| kanzure | but one of the examples was something that calculated the theta/angle of a dial | 09:38 |
| kanzure | in a given design generated by the a-design software | 09:38 |
| kanzure | and in this equation for calculating theta, | 09:38 |
| fenn | there were lots of those.. | 09:38 |
| kanzure | there was a (1 / spring-constant) | 09:38 |
| fenn | right i remember that | 09:38 |
| kanzure | as opposed to (1 * spring-constant) | 09:38 |
| kanzure | so 1/x is inversely proportional | 09:38 |
| kanzure | 1*x is a proportion | 09:38 |
| kanzure | * so 1/x is an inverse proportion | 09:39 |
| kanzure | and they some how then assemble (1/x)(y)(1/z) together by some path traversal through the design graph? or something? | 09:39 |
| kanzure | but I don't know if that makes sense. I haven't really ever done that when I've done designs .. | 09:39 |
| fenn | man your server is so slow | 09:41 |
| fenn | i think it was this http://heybryan.org/books/papers/campbell-dissertation-diagram-thingy.png | 09:41 |
| kanzure | aha, yes | 09:41 |
| kanzure | er, so, I think it woudl be faster if I set up ProxyPass on one of the servers on the campus | 09:41 |
| kanzure | since I have like 10 MB/sec in and out of the university | 09:41 |
| fenn | the spring constant is inverse because it's in parallel with the lever | 09:42 |
| kanzure | if it was serial, it would not be inverse? | 09:42 |
| fenn | well, that's just my gut reaction | 09:43 |
| kanzure | parallel versus serial is a common theme that campbell was ranting about yesterday when I was talking with him | 09:43 |
| kanzure | *was a common theme | 09:43 |
| fenn | i dont really know what the spring is doing | 09:44 |
| fenn | i suppose i should get down there | 09:44 |
| kanzure | ok, give me a ring if you end up in Mexico or something | 09:45 |
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| kardan | maybe i will improve this interface later | 12:42 |
| kardan | but at the moment ii have no clue, what you exactly need | 12:42 |
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| kardan | hi #h+ | 14:36 |
| kanzure | hello | 14:38 |
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| kardan_ | i think i will collect projects in the database later. maybe it needs some security features first. | 15:03 |
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| kanzure- | in adesign/tests/coordtests/oldtests/test.lisp in the first few lines there's an example of MG-change written out. | 18:46 |
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| fenn | oh boy my monitor spontaneously fixed itself | 19:53 |
| kanzure- | an it spontaneously fix the void in my soul that LISP is eating away | 20:52 |
| kanzure- | *can it | 20:52 |
| fenn | no | 20:57 |
| fenn | only a healthy dose of C# can do that | 20:57 |
| kanzure- | the most healthy dose of C# is no dose at all. | 20:58 |
| fenn | deletionist! | 20:58 |
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| kanzure- | heh there's a show called "DOING DAVINCI" | 21:34 |
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| kanzure- | so .. it's still running. | 22:59 |
| kanzure- | (FOOTPAD DIAL MOTOR MOTOR PULLEY GENERATOR) | 22:59 |
| kanzure- | don't know when it will stop .. | 22:59 |
| kanzure- | (FOOTPAD DIAL MOTOR MOTOR PULLEY GENERATOR POTENTIOMETER MOTOR MOTOR) | 23:00 |
| kanzure- | (FOOTPAD DIAL MOTOR GENERATOR MOTOR GENERATOR POTENTIOMETER POTENTIOMETER GENERATOR GENERATOR MOTOR) | 23:13 |
| kanzure- | there's this funny email to the AGI list from Michael Swan asking "how should somebody who develops AGI be compensated" | 23:22 |
| kanzure- | "1% of all profits derived from implementing the AGI? give it away for free?" | 23:22 |
| kanzure- | I don't know why you would need to be compensated if you actually have AGI .. | 23:22 |
| kanzure- | what's the point? | 23:22 |
| kanzure- | hrm. initweigh.lisp line 337~ is where the design problem is specified. but the format is non-obvious. | 23:25 |
| kanzure- | there are some examples in tests/coordtests/tests.lisp but copying-and-pasting the build-fps lines over doesn't work. something about the wrong number of arguments, etc. | 23:50 |
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