| --- Day changed Wed May 06 2009 | ||
| kanzure- | um. | 00:35 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- genehacker_ is now known as genehacker | 01:48 | |
| kanzure- | odd, the head-pain is happening at the same time tonight | 02:29 |
| kanzure- | hi kardan | 02:32 |
| kardan | hiho | 02:33 |
| kardan | kanzure could you smell that I just was reading on your site .) | 02:33 |
| kanzure- | one of my monitors is always showing who is accessing my site. | 02:34 |
| kardan | thats spooky | 02:39 |
| kardan | im interested in building up osh groups and product distribution here in germony | 02:45 |
| kanzure- | what do you mean distribution? | 02:45 |
| kardan | selling .. promotion | 02:46 |
| kanzure- | to make profit? | 02:46 |
| kardan | to show people that open alternatives are better, and some day hopefully even cheaper | 02:47 |
| kardan | my idea was - i know its not new - to put all 'profit' into osh bank/foundation to support new projects | 02:47 |
| kardan | we already do this with fair trade drinks | 02:48 |
| kardan | you surely know the ccc? | 02:48 |
| kanzure- | yes | 02:49 |
| kanzure- | I'm just very cautious of anyone talking about money | 02:49 |
| kardan | right .. | 02:49 |
| kardan | i live without money and dont want any | 02:50 |
| kardan | but i want to bring things forward you know | 02:50 |
| kanzure- | but the thing is that including money or something | 02:50 |
| kanzure- | makes people make stupid decisions | 02:50 |
| kanzure- | for instance, the open source hardware bank people are making some bad choices | 02:50 |
| kanzure- | and don't seem to be technically competent. | 02:50 |
| kardan | ok lets talk about this and possible alternatives | 02:51 |
| kanzure- | alternatives for what though? | 02:51 |
| kanzure- | do you know about SKDB? | 02:51 |
| kardan | money free resource exchange for instance | 02:52 |
| kardan | no, whats SKDB? | 02:52 |
| kanzure- | an open source hardware repository and design tool | 02:52 |
| kanzure- | but think of it also as a 'kernel' of sorts to fablabs or fabratories | 02:52 |
| kardan | ah, kind of core tools to access hardware | 02:54 |
| kardan | a database of projects would be interesting | 02:55 |
| kardan | there are many sites | 02:55 |
| kanzure- | yes, but they all suck | 02:55 |
| kardan | yea | 02:55 |
| kardan | and i resitate to collect them on some wiki page | 02:56 |
| kardan | a real database would be nice | 02:56 |
| kanzure- | right. | 02:57 |
| kanzure- | somebody already started doing that | 02:57 |
| kanzure- | and it was ridiculous because they kept on ignoring me | 02:57 |
| kanzure- | and the work that we're doing in here | 02:57 |
| kanzure- | blah. | 02:57 |
| kardan | mh 'inner' conflicts .. lets overcome it | 02:57 |
| kanzure- | what? | 02:57 |
| kardan | exclusion .. | 02:58 |
| kanzure- | what? | 02:58 |
| kardan | doesnt matter .. just sounded like sb ignored 'you' with intention | 02:59 |
| kanzure- | maybe. or they might just be genuinely stupid. | 02:59 |
| kardan | so there is no good start to work on? | 03:00 |
| kanzure- | sorry? | 03:00 |
| kardan | i mean a really open database which everybody can edit | 03:00 |
| kanzure- | right | 03:01 |
| kardan | with criteria like title, project status, crew, url, description, maybe price .. | 03:01 |
| kanzure- | that's right | 03:01 |
| kanzure- | did you read the metadata todo file on OM? | 03:02 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/om.html | 03:02 |
| kardan | you mean http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/8465dc23eb48e332# | 03:03 |
| kanzure- | yes | 03:03 |
| kanzure- | it's kind of old, so some of it may no longer apply | 03:03 |
| kanzure- | but the majority of it does | 03:03 |
| kardan | "Simple script to handle python exception errors" thats great, i would like to think this bigger .. (unix wide) | 03:04 |
| kanzure- | right | 03:05 |
| kanzure- | do you know of package repositories like apt-get and yum or yast? | 03:05 |
| kardan | sure | 03:06 |
| kanzure- | so yes. that, but for hardware. | 03:06 |
| kardan | hehe | 03:06 |
| kardan | > Tie-in of "open source hardware directories" with "one-click | 03:06 |
| kardan | ordering" and sourcing of materials from suppliers | 03:06 |
| kanzure- | right | 03:07 |
| kardan | that depends on direct cooperation with developers who maintain material lists for their products | 03:07 |
| kanzure- | not necessarily | 03:08 |
| kanzure- | debian has "package maintainers" | 03:08 |
| kanzure- | so that's probably what will happen here | 03:08 |
| kanzure- | because not everybody is willing to package their projects up | 03:08 |
| kanzure- | but if they describe them sufficiently, maintainers can package them up into some somewhat usable form | 03:08 |
| kardan | great. so which informations do we need beneath used materials | 03:10 |
| kanzure- | what? | 03:10 |
| kardan | i mean a list of criteria | 03:12 |
| kanzure- | for what | 03:12 |
| kardan | for this db | 03:12 |
| kanzure- | criteria for what? | 03:12 |
| kanzure- | I mean, that sounds very vague | 03:12 |
| kardan | like provides or depends | 03:14 |
| kanzure- | yeah, different 'hardware packages' need to specify their hardware dependencies | 03:14 |
| kardan | so users can navigate through list of products | 03:15 |
| kanzure- | sure, why not | 03:15 |
| kardan | which or not only shops but also interesting for developers | 03:15 |
| kardan | s/or/are/ | 03:16 |
| kardan | we (brueckenschlaeger) are developing with riseup to improve crabgrass which is a open source social platform | 03:17 |
| kanzure- | what does "social platform" mean | 03:17 |
| kardan | there are ideas on https://we.riseup.net/opensourcehardware | 03:17 |
| kardan | its a website to collaborate | 03:18 |
| kardan | much more powerful than a wiki | 03:18 |
| kanzure- | I don't think a website for collaboration makes since | 03:18 |
| kanzure- | most of my programming is done in a text editor | 03:18 |
| kanzure- | *not* a browser | 03:18 |
| kardan | do you know gobby? | 03:19 |
| kanzure- | no | 03:19 |
| kardan | its a very simple real time collaboration text editor | 03:19 |
| kanzure- | doesn't look like a website to me | 03:19 |
| kanzure- | looks like a standalone app | 03:20 |
| kardan | yep | 03:20 |
| kardan | maybe this makes sense | 03:20 |
| kardan | to develop documents as group in realtime | 03:20 |
| kardan | but more interesting is the database .. | 03:23 |
| kardan | i could set up one for testing | 03:24 |
| kanzure- | maybe you would be interested in packaging up some demos/prototypes? | 03:25 |
| kardan | if you mean to put some projects into the database and maintain their development, yes | 03:28 |
| kanzure- | so at first we're looking to do very simple projects | 03:28 |
| kanzure- | nothing complicated | 03:28 |
| kanzure- | something like "screws" or "fixtures" would be a good start | 03:28 |
| kanzure- | I was doing some IGES demos of different microcentrifuge tubes | 03:29 |
| kanzure- | at the moment I'm sitting around thinking about how to extract linear dynamic equations from the packages | 03:29 |
| kanzure- | between different connections, I mean | 03:29 |
| kardan | maybe i didnt get it, you mean manuals with pictures and step by step instructions? | 03:35 |
| kanzure- | the step-by-step instructions are to be generated by computer | 03:36 |
| kanzure- | that's what I work on in the lab I'm doing research in | 03:36 |
| kardan | so you need a db interface to insert what? | 03:38 |
| kanzure- | sorry? | 03:38 |
| kanzure- | you insert the packages into the repository | 03:38 |
| kardan | one file per project/pkg | 03:39 |
| kanzure- | no, I think there will probably be multiple files | 03:39 |
| kanzure- | but they could be put into a tar file | 03:39 |
| kanzure- | so that ultimately it is indeed a single file | 03:40 |
| kardan | could you draw an example in which format? | 03:40 |
| kardan | because to create such a tar a db would be necessary | 03:41 |
| kanzure- | well, there's a metadata format that I'm working on, | 03:41 |
| kanzure- | but I think that CAD files like IGES or STEP would be the standard | 03:41 |
| kanzure- | the metadata would refer to surfaces in the CAD files | 03:41 |
| kanzure- | (as well as dependencies, materials, etc.) | 03:41 |
| kardan | so we need a web interface to edit those date | 03:42 |
| kanzure- | not necessarily | 03:43 |
| kanzure- | the web interface can come later | 03:43 |
| kardan | or some other db interface | 03:44 |
| kanzure- | right, maybe some tools. | 03:44 |
| kardan | (as rails developer this is my first choice, because it automatically create web interfaces to edit db entries) | 03:45 |
| kardan | so if you have an example i could configure the fields and set it up | 03:45 |
| kanzure- | no, I don't have the linear dynamic equation thingy worked out yet | 03:46 |
| kardan | i create the model like this http://www.tutorialspoint.com/ruby-on-rails/rails-migrations.htm | 04:20 |
| kardan | kanzure what exactly would be my part in your plan? | 04:33 |
| kanzure- | package maintainer :) | 04:41 |
| kanzure- | or possibly somebody who knows more about linear dynamics than I do? | 04:41 |
| genehacker | linear dynamics | 04:48 |
| genehacker | I'm taking dynamics | 04:49 |
| kanzure- | need a way to represent the dynamics of individual components | 04:50 |
| kanzure- | and then string them together | 04:50 |
| kanzure- | for a symbolic equation of multiple components in some design | 04:50 |
| kanzure- | one way is bond graphs. another way is linear graphs. but I'm thinking there might be some other way to do it. | 04:50 |
| kanzure | "Reception of Pictures from the Weather Satellites Using Homemade Equipment" | 05:23 |
| kanzure | "home-improvement? now it's becoming you-improvement." | 05:29 |
| kanzure | A Do-it-yourself Expert System for Shopfloor Use | 05:31 |
| kanzure | M Louha - Proc. 5th Int. Symp.‘Automated Systems Based on Human Skill’ …, 1995 | 05:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.lavoisier.fr/notice/frEWO3KLRAKRWLKO.html DIY labotomy | 05:35 |
| genehacker | call me back when they do spy sats | 05:43 |
| genehacker | lagrange method | 05:43 |
| kanzure | hm. optical fiber made out of PMMA holes + fructose ? | 07:10 |
| genehacker | Fructose? | 07:59 |
| fenn_ | i wish people wouldn't automatically assume 'SQL' or tables and columns when you say database | 11:17 |
| -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn | 11:17 | |
| fenn | the whole tables thing is so lame | 11:17 |
| fenn | Commies all over the place, a great worldwide conspiracy to rob Americans of their hard-earned cash. Goddamn open-source software, hardware. Open source mustangs, open source wagons headin out West’, gonna turn this society upside down. Ain’t no hole in hell deep enough for ‘em. | 11:53 |
| kardan_ | "Commies all over the place, a great worldwide conspiracy to rob Americans of their hard-earned cash" lol | 12:21 |
| kardan_ | thats ridiculous, i really dont know what you are afraid of | 12:29 |
| fenn | i thought it was pretty funny | 12:33 |
| kardan_ | what did you read? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | kardan_: do you speak english? | 12:34 |
| kardan_ | no i just pretend to | 12:35 |
| kanzure | because I've had trouble communicating with you | 12:35 |
| kardan_ | seemed so :) | 12:35 |
| fenn | it was a comment on this page in response to another comment; search for 'patent' for the original comment http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/03/open-source-har/ | 12:35 |
| fenn | i hate it when they dont have anchors for comments | 12:36 |
| kanzure | hrm. water-core Fresnel fiber. | 12:48 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with these? why isn't everybody building these for optical data transfer? | 12:48 |
| kanzure | it's a freaking water-core optical fiber .. | 12:48 |
| kanzure | better yet, air-core. yay. | 12:52 |
| fenn | air has the wrong index of refraction | 12:53 |
| fenn | you have to have a higher index at the center | 12:53 |
| fenn | water absorbs IR | 12:53 |
| fenn | i dont know how the spectrum compares to glass | 12:54 |
| kanzure | gimme a chance to read more | 12:54 |
| kanzure | "The fibers produced resemble ring-structured Bragg fibers, and transmission in the hollow core was observed for a range of wavelengths, including the infrared" | 12:55 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/Hollow-core%20microstructured%20polymer%20optical%20fiber.pdf | 12:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: that image of the forest of CNTs with microspheres in that lipkowitz-paper was really neat. | 12:59 |
| kanzure | "SEM image of a MWCNT forest seeded with 330 nm polystryene spheres" | 13:00 |
| fenn | yeah | 13:01 |
| kanzure | "Dew should not be confused with guttation, which is the process by which plants release excess water from the tips of their leaves." | 13:08 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser) | 13:11 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation | 13:11 |
| fenn | hah. chopped all those knobbly things off my bike tire, now it works | 13:53 |
| kanzure | erm, how long did you spend on that | 13:56 |
| kanzure | maybe you shouldn't tell me | 13:56 |
| fenn | about half an hour | 14:00 |
| fenn | in the process i found that i had two broken spokes | 14:01 |
| kardan__i | kanzure this is what i thought of: http://oshw.0xb5.org/ | 14:10 |
| fenn | two projects? | 14:14 |
| fenn | oh this is a demo of the web based database editor | 14:14 |
| kardan__i | the content doesnt matter | 14:14 |
| fenn | the 'depends' field is where things get tricky | 14:14 |
| kardan__i | everybody may edit it atm | 14:14 |
| fenn | it's not so easy as with software where you just say 'requires such n such library, end of story' and it's no big deal for anyone to download that library | 14:15 |
| kardan__i | depends should point to another project | 14:15 |
| kardan__i | yes | 14:15 |
| fenn | we've gone over this at length.. i'd love to share some files with you but my webserver's down | 14:16 |
| kardan__i | at least instructions are necessary how to include other peaces | 14:16 |
| kardan__i | examples would be great. you can send them to kardan@brueckenschlaeger.de | 14:17 |
| fenn | i've been hoping someone would come help write a web interface for a long time now | 14:20 |
| fenn | but the back-end is still barely even started | 14:21 |
| fenn | i dont think a relational database is going to cut it | 14:22 |
| fenn | especially not with distributed development of the database | 14:22 |
| kardan__i | with such a db interface we can create files of every we like, i just need to write an exporter | 14:22 |
| -!- kardan__i is now known as kardan | 14:23 | |
| kardan | mh maybe its not best but i have no better solution yet | 14:23 |
| fenn | ok. at worst you could just show some text forms to edit the raw yaml | 14:23 |
| fenn | and store the yaml in the database | 14:23 |
| fenn | but that is sorta pointless | 14:23 |
| fenn | you want to do something like 'select from screws where thread = M8' right? | 14:24 |
| kardan | sort of. especially i think of a material table which enables much more | 14:25 |
| fenn | yeah. it's hard to know where to begin | 14:26 |
| kanzure | "microplasma powder deposition" <- heh. | 14:26 |
| fenn | kanzure has scraped some material databases | 14:26 |
| fenn | i'm not really sure of the utility though since we don't know where to actually get most of them | 14:27 |
| kardan | for instance a motherboard could have some materials as provides and a computer would list it a s needed material / depend | 14:27 |
| kanzure | except for mindat | 14:27 |
| fenn | i mean it wouldn't be hard to go through mcmaster.com or onlinemetals.com and make a reasonably complete materials selection | 14:27 |
| kanzure | soo | 14:28 |
| kanzure | I think I might leave out symbolic equations | 14:28 |
| fenn | oh, that's what we were calling a 'package' | 14:28 |
| kanzure | if I do, it's less awesome | 14:28 |
| kanzure | but doable | 14:28 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think mathematical models are useful but they odnt always exist so it shouldnt be a requirement | 14:28 |
| kanzure | but where would they go? | 14:29 |
| fenn | it's not very hard to implement though, see my screw thread force calculation for example | 14:29 |
| kanzure | if they are available, for, say, a gear? | 14:29 |
| fenn | class method | 14:29 |
| kanzure | that doesn't explain anything | 14:29 |
| fenn | inherit methods from more generic classes for more automagical solution | 14:29 |
| fenn | but you never get to 100% magic | 14:29 |
| fenn | you have to read the manual at some point | 14:29 |
| fenn | i havent read albert's paper | 14:30 |
| kanzure | I don't recommend it | 14:30 |
| kanzure | so, in the case of a-design, the equations were being constructed by taking "through" and "across" variables | 14:31 |
| fenn | my idea of a gear train is it has some function that describes the relationship between input and output positions and forces | 14:31 |
| kanzure | erm | 14:31 |
| fenn | yeah, except without the stupid names like 'through' and 'across' :P | 14:31 |
| kanzure | in the "control point" data structure, basically campbell had some variables that defined the derivatives and integrals for going in certain directions | 14:31 |
| kanzure | well, I was hoping reading his source code would help explain things | 14:31 |
| kanzure | haven't got around to that today yet | 14:31 |
| fenn | reading the source code almost never helps explain things | 14:31 |
| fenn | welp i wish i had read this stuff, now i'm going to go make a fool of myself yes? :) | 14:32 |
| kanzure | not really | 14:32 |
| fenn | campbell called if functional parameter right? | 14:32 |
| kanzure | yes | 14:32 |
| fenn | not control point | 14:32 |
| kanzure | yes | 14:32 |
| fenn | ok so, what is an fp? | 14:33 |
| kanzure | it is like what I am calling 'control point' heh' | 14:33 |
| fenn | is it just some numbers that plug into super-duper universal modeling equations? | 14:33 |
| kanzure | except his FP thingy is tailored for something like 'bond graphs' | 14:33 |
| kanzure | err | 14:33 |
| kanzure | not really | 14:33 |
| fenn | i dont know what a bond graph is either | 14:33 |
| kanzure | so in the FP data structure there is a sub list called MG-change | 14:33 |
| kanzure | and this MG-change structure has a few arrays: through[n], across[n] | 14:34 |
| kanzure | each value in the arrays is an equation | 14:34 |
| kanzure | where n = number of ports or interfaces | 14:34 |
| kanzure | somehow these equations are assembled together by doing certain path traversals | 14:34 |
| kanzure | through the design. | 14:34 |
| fenn | ok | 14:35 |
| fenn | so they just use the same equations for everything, which is what i said | 14:35 |
| kanzure | in this paper, http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Guiding%20conceptual%20design%20through%20behavioral%20reasoning%20-%20Welch%20-%20Dixon%20-%201994.pdf | 14:35 |
| kanzure | they use some sort of 'directional derivative' (pg 4) | 14:35 |
| kanzure | which is the stuff about either directly proportional or inversely proportional | 14:35 |
| kanzure | (or no proportional relation) | 14:36 |
| kanzure | the equations though don't really seem to be per-component/class, but instead per-port. | 14:36 |
| kanzure | which is weird. | 14:36 |
| kanzure | I've been asking campbell why he thinks this bond graph stuff is necessary, and why can't it just work by resolving the units | 14:37 |
| fenn | it shouldnt be proportional vs inversely proportional though; should be function vs its inverse | 14:37 |
| kanzure | well in the equations I mean, er | 14:37 |
| fenn | inverse like f(inverse(x)) = x | 14:37 |
| kanzure | ok, I don't have it | 14:37 |
| kanzure | but one of the examples was something that calculated the theta/angle of a dial | 14:38 |
| kanzure | in a given design generated by the a-design software | 14:38 |
| kanzure | and in this equation for calculating theta, | 14:38 |
| fenn | there were lots of those.. | 14:38 |
| kanzure | there was a (1 / spring-constant) | 14:38 |
| fenn | right i remember that | 14:38 |
| kanzure | as opposed to (1 * spring-constant) | 14:38 |
| kanzure | so 1/x is inversely proportional | 14:38 |
| kanzure | 1*x is a proportion | 14:38 |
| kanzure | * so 1/x is an inverse proportion | 14:38 |
| kanzure | and they some how then assemble (1/x)(y)(1/z) together by some path traversal through the design graph? or something? | 14:39 |
| kanzure | but I don't know if that makes sense. I haven't really ever done that when I've done designs .. | 14:39 |
| fenn | man your server is so slow | 14:41 |
| fenn | i think it was this http://heybryan.org/books/papers/campbell-dissertation-diagram-thingy.png | 14:41 |
| kanzure | aha, yes | 14:41 |
| kanzure | er, so, I think it woudl be faster if I set up ProxyPass on one of the servers on the campus | 14:41 |
| kanzure | since I have like 10 MB/sec in and out of the university | 14:41 |
| fenn | the spring constant is inverse because it's in parallel with the lever | 14:42 |
| kanzure | if it was serial, it would not be inverse? | 14:42 |
| fenn | well, that's just my gut reaction | 14:43 |
| kanzure | parallel versus serial is a common theme that campbell was ranting about yesterday when I was talking with him | 14:43 |
| kanzure | *was a common theme | 14:43 |
| fenn | i dont really know what the spring is doing | 14:43 |
| fenn | i suppose i should get down there | 14:44 |
| kanzure | ok, give me a ring if you end up in Mexico or something | 14:45 |
| -!- any72684526 is now known as katsmeow-afk | 15:37 | |
| -!- any61810568 is now known as katsmeow-afk | 15:44 | |
| -!- any81413435 is now known as katsmeow-afk | 15:49 | |
| -!- any38463417 is now known as katsmeow-afk | 15:57 | |
| -!- any83825325 is now known as katsmeow-afk | 16:06 | |
| kardan | hi #h+ | 19:35 |
| kanzure | hello | 19:38 |
| kardan_ | i think i will collect projects in the database later. maybe it needs some security features first. | 20:02 |
| kanzure- | in adesign/tests/coordtests/oldtests/test.lisp in the first few lines there's an example of MG-change written out. | 23:46 |
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