| --- Day changed Thu May 14 2009 | ||
| ybit | better link of the rooney vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFzJHaGBUTs | 02:28 |
|---|---|---|
| ybit | been awhile since i heard anything from them | 02:28 |
| ybit | kanzure-: you like the tablet? | 02:33 |
| ybit | i'm sure you do, what don't you like about it? | 02:34 |
| -!- any54612239 is now known as katsmeow | 04:25 | |
| kanzure | hm. | 05:32 |
| -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk | 06:19 | |
| kanzure | I think I am seeing a reflection in my eyeball of my eyeball. | 06:23 |
| faceface | kanzure: I've seen that too | 07:57 |
| kanzure | ref? | 08:05 |
| kanzure | bwahah | 08:28 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/functional-imaging-of-practice-results.png | 08:28 |
| kanzure | (read it not from left to right, but instead right to left.) | 08:30 |
| kanzure | SIAI is pushing funding to OpenCog :-( | 09:04 |
| faceface | ref: my memory at some point, somewhere on the internet/ | 12:54 |
| kanzure | not good enough | 12:54 |
| kanzure | "Molecular evolution of microcephalin, a gene determining human brain size" | 13:15 |
| kanzure | hm, and ASPM | 13:17 |
| kanzure | MCPH1, ASPM, CDK5RAP2, CENPJ. | 13:20 |
| kanzure | xp_prg: I do not understand your question. | 18:05 |
| kanzure | are you assuming that you can change federal law in the civil courts? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | oh. patents are civil. nevermind. | 18:06 |
| xp_prg | yes I am saying that | 18:07 |
| xp_prg | I am saying that DNA and proteins can be viewed as software and therefore can be given a GPL license | 18:07 |
| kanzure | just because you think so doesn't mean everyone else does | 18:08 |
| kanzure | and thus your idea brings zero benefit.. | 18:08 |
| xp_prg | kanzure your missing the whole point, lets say I declare a gene, DNA, and/or protein GPL'd, a drug manufacturer/company sues me saying that is illegal, if the judge sides with me, what would that do? | 18:09 |
| kanzure | but that's not how the legal system works .. | 18:09 |
| kanzure | if it worked that way, | 18:09 |
| kanzure | I would just declare all patents invalid | 18:09 |
| xp_prg | kanzure that is how roe v wade worked | 18:10 |
| xp_prg | it was a question of interpretation | 18:10 |
| xp_prg | the legal system does work this way | 18:10 |
| kanzure | but then why is it costing the biobrick foundation tens of thousands of dollars to do it | 18:11 |
| xp_prg | kanzure will you please answer my f******* question please? | 18:11 |
| kanzure | I think you're bullshitting. | 18:11 |
| kanzure | no, your question is irrelevant | 18:11 |
| xp_prg | you can't even answer a what if question? | 18:11 |
| kanzure | I don't care "what if" | 18:11 |
| xp_prg | *sigh* | 18:11 |
| kanzure | because I don't think that scenario is plausible | 18:11 |
| xp_prg | I think it is | 18:12 |
| kanzure | then go make it happen and prove me wrong? | 18:12 |
| kanzure | what's so bad about proving me wrong here? | 18:12 |
| xp_prg | kanzure I hope to do just that, but just answer my question hypothetically please, what would happen? | 18:12 |
| kanzure | put you in the hole because of lawyer fees? | 18:13 |
| xp_prg | what would happen to patents and how proteins, dna is used etc... ? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | what? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | so are you saying that some judge in some random county would suddenly dismantle the patent system? | 18:14 |
| kanzure | that's not how it works.. | 18:14 |
| xp_prg | well if a protein/organism was gpl'd all work done on that organism would have to be open to the public | 18:14 |
| xp_prg | massive innovation would occur! | 18:14 |
| xp_prg | kanzure the patent system still exists for software, it isn't dismantled | 18:14 |
| kanzure | exactly | 18:14 |
| kanzure | and it's still a fucking problem | 18:15 |
| xp_prg | so that is not what I am saying! | 18:15 |
| xp_prg | kanzure but it could still be there but GPL would start to eat away at it, like it is in software! | 18:15 |
| kanzure | GPL isn't eating away at the patent system .. | 18:15 |
| kanzure | the patent system is encoded in legal bullshit, the GPL isn't | 18:15 |
| kanzure | anyway | 18:16 |
| kanzure | I don't see how this is different from licensed open source hardware repositories | 18:16 |
| xp_prg | kanzure you amaze me how little you understand software and the gpl | 18:16 |
| kanzure | haha | 18:16 |
| kanzure | go ask stallman :) | 18:16 |
| xp_prg | anway, tired of explaining this to you | 18:16 |
| kanzure | of explaining what? | 18:16 |
| xp_prg | the impac of gpl'd proteins, dna etc... | 18:16 |
| xp_prg | impac = impact | 18:17 |
| kanzure | the impact doesn't matter | 18:17 |
| kanzure | I already know what the impact would be | 18:17 |
| kanzure | we can imagine wonderful scenarios and so on all day | 18:17 |
| xp_prg | what would it be? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | I can imagine very fantastical things | 18:17 |
| kanzure | but your method of getting there does not sound sound | 18:17 |
| kanzure | that's what I'm talking about. | 18:17 |
| xp_prg | well what would be a "sound" approach to gpl a protein, dna? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | why must it be GPL? | 18:17 |
| xp_prg | cuz it is software | 18:18 |
| kanzure | not according to everyone else | 18:18 |
| xp_prg | it is software kanzure | 18:18 |
| kanzure | you could say that all day, but it doesn't mean that they think it | 18:18 |
| xp_prg | well it truely is, it can be proven | 18:19 |
| xp_prg | they are instructions to a finite sequence set of steps, that is a program/softwrae | 18:19 |
| xp_prg | trust me I am a computer scientist I know | 18:19 |
| kanzure | haha | 18:19 |
| kanzure | well beyond the obvious problems of assuming a certificate grants you knowledge | 18:19 |
| kanzure | it's true that sequences are similar to software | 18:19 |
| kanzure | however, the GPL has not been historically applied to abstract sequences of any type | 18:20 |
| xp_prg | I didn't say they are similar to software, that they are software | 18:20 |
| kanzure | oh, so you're going to try to use bullshit niche "I'm in this industry and I know what I'm talking about" arguments | 18:20 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:21 |
| kanzure | kind of a cheat though | 18:21 |
| kanzure | so when they go to say "does this make sense" they'd go to a computer scientist (i.e. you). this is known as pulling strings, or something. | 18:21 |
| xp_prg | kanzure you never get in the spirit of what someone is saying, you constantly belittle them, it gets old man, just understand their idea and comment on it, no big deal | 18:21 |
| kanzure | what do you want me to say | 18:22 |
| xp_prg | how exciting and amazing it would be if proteins and dna could be gpld | 18:22 |
| kanzure | but I already told you about that | 18:22 |
| kanzure | you just don't listen.. | 18:22 |
| xp_prg | you told me I was bullshitting and foolish | 18:22 |
| kanzure | go back and read the entire conversation | 18:23 |
| kanzure | I promise you that I told you that I could imagine very fantastical things of exponential development if everybody got along | 18:23 |
| xp_prg | ok, anyway, just might want to analyze your communication approach, it is not "constructive" | 18:24 |
| kanzure | I don't think you actually read my messages | 18:24 |
| kanzure | for instance, did you even see me mentioning the packaging ideas? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | in this conversation? | 18:24 |
| xp_prg | packaging ideas? | 18:25 |
| xp_prg | I am lost | 18:25 |
| kanzure | because you don't read | 18:25 |
| xp_prg | anyway, you kind of understand what I am saying, I hope i can do it :> | 18:26 |
| kanzure | yep | 18:26 |
| kanzure | just don't know why you want to create some silly new initiative whereas you could just work on the things that are already on the todo list which would get the same effect | 18:26 |
| xp_prg | what do you think the best way to get started is? | 18:26 |
| xp_prg | what would get the same effect? | 18:26 |
| kanzure | the open source hardware packaging system.. | 18:26 |
| kanzure | how many times do I need to repeat myself | 18:27 |
| xp_prg | do you view dna, proteins as hardware? | 18:27 |
| kanzure | I know that I can mechanically influence them, if that's what you're asking. | 18:27 |
| xp_prg | but the open source hardware packaing system would apply to dna, proteins how? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | by packaging the recipes and instructions .. | 18:28 |
| kanzure | sigh. | 18:28 |
| xp_prg | ok, I like your idea by the way! | 18:30 |
| xp_prg | but can you do that for patented dna/proteins without a violation? | 18:30 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by "violation" specifically | 18:31 |
| xp_prg | if you construct a patented dna/protein with your opensource packaging system, you have to pay the holder of the patent | 18:31 |
| xp_prg | will your opensource packaging system included a paypal function to pay the patent holder? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | yes, but not because of that .. | 18:32 |
| xp_prg | I don't believe in that | 18:33 |
| kanzure | I don't think it's terrible to have a "buy a kit" button or system implemented | 18:33 |
| kanzure | that's what the austin fabratory is moving towards anyway | 18:33 |
| kanzure | not because of patents though | 18:34 |
| xp_prg | kanzure I am not talking about buying the "kit", I am talking about a procedure where you don't need to buy a kit, but you need to pay the patent holder, will you be handling that? | 18:34 |
| kanzure | ideally I'm working on a way to make that question "not even wrong". | 18:35 |
| xp_prg | kanzure their are patents on procedures | 18:35 |
| kanzure | what does that have to do with what I just said | 18:35 |
| kanzure | do you know what "not even wrong" means? | 18:35 |
| xp_prg | no | 18:36 |
| kanzure | "An apparently scientific argument is said to be not even wrong if it is based on assumptions that are known to be incorrect, or alternatively, theories which cannot possibly be falsified or used to predict anything." | 18:36 |
| kanzure | in other words, I'm questioning the assumptions of the involvement of patents | 18:36 |
| xp_prg | kanzure so your going to avoid patent infringement issues how exactly? | 18:36 |
| kanzure | patents are largely governed throughout INTERPOL or something, and maybe there's a way to work around that | 18:36 |
| kanzure | anyway, that's still up in the air at the moment | 18:36 |
| kanzure | and I haven't heard any better ideas | 18:37 |
| xp_prg | I don't understand your approach to dealing with patent infringement in your opensource hardware packaing system at all | 18:37 |
| kanzure | okay. | 18:37 |
| kanzure | it is a replacement for the patent system. think of it that way. | 18:38 |
| xp_prg | I guess I am dumb, still don't understand it | 18:38 |
| kanzure | well the licensing and legal bullshit is completely separated from the technical aspects anyway | 18:39 |
| kanzure | so don't worry about that at least. | 18:39 |
| xp_prg | kanzure how did you achieve that miraculous separation? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | one's pie-in-the-sky the other is being worked on right now? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | http://openmaterials.org/ | 18:39 |
| kanzure | hm. | 18:39 |
| kanzure | oh fuck | 18:40 |
| kanzure | "create a repository (wiki) of different materials, tools, and techniques" | 18:40 |
| kanzure | why a wiki | 18:40 |
| kanzure | fuck fuck fuck | 18:40 |
| xp_prg | kanzure we are so on the same path, you would benefit greatly from gpl'd dna/proteins with your system | 18:40 |
| kanzure | not if you're infringing a patent | 18:42 |
| kanzure | anyway, if we are on the same path why haven't you said so earlier before? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | like, six months ago? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | http://openmaterials.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Pagehttp://openmaterials.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page | 18:42 |
| kanzure | hah | 18:43 |
| kanzure | they only have a "main page" | 18:43 |
| kanzure | morons. | 18:43 |
| kanzure | and they're calling themselves "oM". bah! | 18:43 |
| kanzure | hi nsh | 20:08 |
| boogles | xp_prg: I think GPL DNA/Protiens sound like an interesting idea. | 20:11 |
| boogles | If Monsanto can patent DNA, why shouldn't anyone else be able to GPL it? | 20:12 |
| kanzure | because you're not a lawyer | 20:12 |
| nsh | hey guys | 20:13 |
| kanzure | never! | 20:13 |
| kanzure | on guard | 20:13 |
| boogles | Oh, looks like Duke beat you to it: http://www.genome.duke.edu/centers/cpg/ | 20:14 |
| kanzure | good to see Jonathan Cline getting some work done. | 20:21 |
| xp_prg | boogles thanks soooo much! | 20:29 |
| xp_prg | boogles what is the best way to proceed? | 20:29 |
| kanzure | .. | 20:29 |
| kanzure | but why didn't you take my advice? | 20:30 |
| kanzure | apparently my advice doesn't count or something? | 20:30 |
| xp_prg | kanzure me? | 20:30 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:30 |
| xp_prg | the advice to assist you with open hardware packaging? | 20:31 |
| kanzure | well I guess | 20:31 |
| kanzure | but don't do it for me :p | 20:31 |
| xp_prg | well cuz I like gpl and want to gpl dna | 20:32 |
| kanzure | how is that different though | 20:32 |
| kanzure | do you even know about how the GNU project works? | 20:32 |
| xp_prg | yes I have done like 10 papers on it | 20:32 |
| kanzure | orly? | 20:32 |
| xp_prg | yup | 20:33 |
| xp_prg | I have 2 masters | 20:33 |
| xp_prg | both concentred on opensource development | 20:33 |
| kanzure | just goes to show. | 20:34 |
| kanzure | fenn_: are you still breathing? | 20:44 |
| Traveler34 | 'travlin | 21:44 |
| kanzure | nice. computational tomographic reconstruction of worm hole networks in farm soils. | 22:12 |
| nsh | what? | 22:13 |
| nsh | oh | 22:13 |
| nsh | worm holes | 22:13 |
| nsh | silly physics appropriating my tokenspace | 22:14 |
| kanzure | oh. erm. um. groundworm holes | 22:14 |
| nsh | i was thinking: damn that's an esoteric paper, kanz | 22:18 |
| nsh | :-) | 22:18 |
| kanzure | weird. | 22:25 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&cites=14209644482549009775 | 22:25 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&cites=2943708744545997766 | 22:26 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&cites=10058853139342167984 | 22:26 |
| kanzure | none of the worms want to be the female | 22:26 |
| fenn_ | xp_prg: DNA is "chemistry" which isn't considered an expressive medium, therefore you can't copyright it | 22:37 |
| -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn | 22:37 | |
| fenn | nobody invents DNA sequences from scratch anyway though, they're all rewrites of natural sequences in some way | 22:38 |
| fenn | maybe this will change | 22:38 |
| * kanzure drops his nucleotides and gasps | 22:38 | |
| fenn | the folding problem, you know | 22:38 |
| kanzure | I'm surprised that this television thingy is actually being useful | 22:39 |
| kanzure | the science channel is running a nice show on c. elegans | 22:39 |
| fenn | ok class here is today's assignment http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/distilling_laws.pdf | 22:44 |
| kanzure | hm, it's new | 22:44 |
| kanzure | oh | 22:45 |
| kanzure | he presented on some of this work a few months ago here on campus | 22:45 |
| kanzure | "symbolic regression". | 22:45 |
| kanzure | which, btw, could be done with the A-DESIGN component library, or at least combined with it | 22:46 |
| kanzure | re: my "user draws a curve and then symbolic regression magic happens to figure out what components to use to make up that curve for the performance of some machine design thingy" | 22:46 |
| fenn | exackerly | 22:46 |
| fenn | i think this is more useful for modeling components though | 22:47 |
| kanzure | "mining physical systems" hrm. | 22:47 |
| fenn | instead of painstakingly doing it by hand | 22:47 |
| kanzure | heh at the end they have The Robot Scientist attached as the next paper | 22:49 |
| kanzure | so I'm thinking of something like a green screen + OpenCV :p | 22:50 |
| kanzure | fenn: will you be at the lab tomorrow? | 22:52 |
| kanzure | I haven't dumped text about what I've got from A-DESIGN (basically nothing new except a confirmation that what we were thinking about previously re: terminators was correct) | 22:53 |
| fenn | you could apply that law detection algorithm to mechanical designs, for example to derive that cars have 4 wheels or a lathe bed's thickness is the same as the turning diameter | 22:54 |
| kanzure | er, cars don't need to have four wheels .. | 22:54 |
| fenn | i'll try to be there tomorrow around 2 | 22:54 |
| kanzure | ok. if you get there earlier I could get you some food. | 22:55 |
| fenn | i have to talk to rosalie foster about paperwork | 22:55 |
| kanzure | she's the door across from campbell's. | 22:56 |
| fenn | between 1:30 and 3:30 | 22:56 |
| fenn | so anyway what time is good for you? | 22:56 |
| kanzure | I have meetings from 3 to 5 with sata. | 22:56 |
| kanzure | hm. sea wasp has 10 ft long tentacles. | 23:02 |
| fenn | oof. took 30 hours on a 32-core system to derive the double pendulum law | 23:12 |
| fenn | i'm thinking a quantum computer could bust some serious ass in the realm of equation deriving | 23:13 |
| kanzure | they might be using a stupid method | 23:13 |
| fenn | you mean a slow implementation? | 23:14 |
| -!- duzt is now known as duzt|away | 23:35 | |
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