| --- Day changed Mon Aug 24 2009 | ||
| ybit | I struggle with 'wasting time', watching movies, playing games, watching sports, 'chilling' with friends, anything not to do with what I would like to be doing which is in making progress scientifically or technologically. And maybe it comes down to not having an understanding of sanity? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| katsmeow-afk | i think sanity is having a ruleset that is tidy, that others mostly agree to, and at least don't beat you up with it | 00:02 |
| ybit | I view some things that I do as acceptable even if it's not improving scientific or technical advancement because some studies point towards the fact that it may increase my chances of staying alive | 00:04 |
| ybit | sorry for the late night philosophy | 00:04 |
| ybit | that others mostly agree to == a majority of others? | 00:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, i have always had problems with "worth", productivity, interfacing to humans | 00:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas | 00:05 |
| ybit | what is this ruleset? and what do you mean by tidy? | 00:05 |
| fenn | value system | 00:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | like, if you vote for Clinton and 99% of people are republicans, they'd proll lynch you | 00:05 |
| fenn | also interpretation of the world | 00:05 |
| fenn | two people can see the same thing and understand it differently | 00:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | tidy = no internal conflicts | 00:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | tidy = few unresolved rules | 00:06 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: even mathematics can't be proven self consistent | 00:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | as long as you don't need hospitalisation for that fenn, i don't care :-) | 00:06 |
| fenn | ybit did you ever read the reciprocality website? | 00:08 |
| ybit | fenn: no | 00:10 |
| ybit | do you have a link by chance? | 00:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | or on purpose? | 00:11 |
| ybit | eh? | 00:11 |
| fenn | apparently all mirrors without junk attached have disappeared | 00:11 |
| fenn | anyway, just ignore the crap at the top: http://www.buildfreedom.com/content/reciprocality/ | 00:11 |
| fenn | M0 relates to your question about why people watch sports | 00:12 |
| fenn | or why people put up with pointless bullshit in general | 00:12 |
| ybit | looks like i have some decent reading in the morning, ty | 00:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | ditto, ty | 00:15 |
| ybit | thanks katsmeow-afk for the idea of a ruleset/value system | 00:16 |
| ybit | gives me something to ponder about | 00:16 |
| ybit | while drifting to bed | 00:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | <curtsey> | 00:17 |
| ybit | browsing history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(personal_and_cultural) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_ethic_value#Absolute_and_relative -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenal and then who knows where. some protocol for mapping connections formed from reading or otherwise... ideamap mindmap? i forget if there's a term for this.. would be useful in having some process analyzing this for future discoveries/insights | 00:23 |
| * ybit is hoping someone links me to work on this already | 00:24 | |
| katsmeow-afk | and ai | 00:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | look for "internal language" | 00:24 |
| fenn | memex++ | 00:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | if you lack the internal representation for a concept, you cannot use it | 00:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | if you cannot form links across concepts, you cannot form new ones or differentiate them | 00:25 |
| fenn | "surf tree" is a phrase i just came up with | 00:26 |
| fenn | "associative trail" is the official phrase, but i think it ignores the exploratory multi-branching nature of real surfing | 00:27 |
| ybit | katsmeow-afk: first wikipedia result from "internal language" google search result is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolinguistics | 00:27 |
| ybit | fenn: nice point | 00:28 |
| -!- splicer [n=patrik@81.224.100.55] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] | 00:28 | |
| ybit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-language#.22I-Language.22_and_.22E-Language.22 ...katsmeow-afk, you were referencing chomsky? | 00:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | i suspect every topic can reference him, heh | 00:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism_(psychology) | 00:32 |
| fenn | "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" | 00:32 |
| fenn | i love it | 00:32 |
| fenn | FURIOUSLY | 00:33 |
| -!- fenn changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: COLORLESS GREEN IDEAS SLEEP FURIOUSLY | 00:33 | |
| katsmeow-afk | my parser found 3 more valid parses to "time flies like an arrow" than in literature back then | 00:33 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.129.174] has joined #hplusroadmap | 00:34 | |
| genehacker | topic? | 00:34 |
| genehacker | is weird | 00:34 |
| ybit | genehacker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously | 00:34 |
| genehacker | oh | 00:35 |
| genehacker | so you might have graph grammar problems? | 00:35 |
| ybit | hehe, it's about time for my colorless green ideas to sleep furiously as well :) | 00:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology | 00:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | cogitate on that :-) | 00:36 |
| ybit | genehacker: i brought up some philosophical questions... i'll link you to the log.. | 00:36 |
| genehacker | well if the grammar is written right the worst we'll get is an ugly looking machine | 00:37 |
| fenn | ugliness is not to be tolerated | 00:37 |
| ybit | http://pastebin.com/d7fca37c7 | 00:37 |
| ybit | genehacker ^ | 00:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | oh, reason repraps won't be widespread: emissions from the solvents used in the liquid plastics | 00:38 |
| genehacker | ??? | 00:38 |
| fenn | there aren't any liquid plastics | 00:38 |
| fenn | er, at least none with solvents | 00:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | nothing dries, or outgasses? | 00:38 |
| fenn | not really | 00:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | k | 00:38 |
| genehacker | katsmeow-afk, I think reprap is an evolutionary dead end | 00:38 |
| fenn | you could make a reprap out of glass if you wanted | 00:38 |
| ybit | genehacker: how so? | 00:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | a glas menting glass curcible? | 00:39 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: no of course not | 00:39 |
| genehacker | printed parts aren't nearly as good as parts produced by subtractive processes | 00:39 |
| fenn | there has to be some kind of orthogonal material transformation (for lack of a better word) | 00:39 |
| genehacker | ???? | 00:39 |
| fenn | temperature is a basis vector | 00:40 |
| fenn | solvency is a basis vector | 00:40 |
| genehacker | huh? | 00:40 |
| ybit | genehacker: because it doesn't have a surf tree analyzing ai? | 00:40 |
| fenn | uh.. i can't think of any other transformation vectors, sorry | 00:40 |
| ybit | er, maybe that's called agi | 00:40 |
| genehacker | no because it can't make good parts | 00:40 |
| fenn | good meaning what? | 00:41 |
| ybit | surf tree analyzing ai == agi, si? | 00:41 |
| genehacker | read towards cyclic fabrication | 00:41 |
| fenn | ybit: not necessarily | 00:41 |
| genehacker | for modular robotics and manufacturing | 00:41 |
| QuantumG | I think the problem with reprap is that it is all about making parts and not at all about assembling them.. or at least, last time I looked it was | 00:41 |
| genehacker | I think reprap needs to go subtractive | 00:42 |
| fenn | ybit: hidden markov models do what you mean (i think) but aren't obviously intelligent | 00:42 |
| genehacker | quantumG have you read that paper yet? | 00:42 |
| genehacker | maybe not a dead end | 00:42 |
| genehacker | darwin is a dead end at least | 00:42 |
| fenn | the problem with reprap is they are mass producing them in factories | 00:42 |
| genehacker | mass producing them? | 00:42 |
| genehacker | heh | 00:42 |
| fenn | well, almost | 00:42 |
| QuantumG | the cyclic fabrication one, yeah, pretty cool | 00:43 |
| genehacker | more like limited volume production | 00:43 |
| fenn | it's a great example of an open hardware project | 00:43 |
| genehacker | very cool | 00:43 |
| genehacker | reprap needs to go in that direction | 00:43 |
| fenn | ah.. quenching (hardening) is another transformation basis vector | 00:43 |
| genehacker | make a wax mold, pour goop in mold | 00:44 |
| genehacker | yup | 00:44 |
| fenn | and of course all of polymer chemistry | 00:44 |
| ybit | www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss05/p16.pdf | 00:44 |
| ybit | "Towards cyclic fabrication systems for modular robotics and rapid ..." | 00:44 |
| ybit | about the only paper i found on cyclic fab | 00:44 |
| genehacker | oh cool | 00:45 |
| fenn | genehacker: you didnt see that yesterday? | 00:45 |
| fenn | after your rant about how cool matt moses was | 00:45 |
| genehacker | I did | 00:45 |
| ybit | genehacker: what paper are you referencing? 00:41 < genehacker> quantumG have you read that paper yet? | 00:45 |
| genehacker | I didn't know the url | 00:46 |
| ybit | didn't and do now or still don't? | 00:46 |
| ybit | just verifying | 00:47 |
| fenn | ah sweet sweet rationalization.. | 00:48 |
| * ybit pokes genehacker with a tree branch | 00:48 | |
| fenn | "Therefore despite being in a massive minority in modern societies, low dopamine people have healthy brains and are normal, and everyone else has been made unwell by the M0 parasitisation of their society." | 00:48 |
| fenn | this is much more poorly written than i remember | 00:49 |
| katsmeow-afk | i've often thoght the world wold be better off, more advanced, without all those lacking the gift of Aspergers | 00:50 |
| ybit | the quote is on ...http://www.datamodel.co.uk/Reciprocality/www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/r1/index.html | 00:50 |
| fenn | yes that's the mirror i was looking for | 00:50 |
| ybit | 00:42 < QuantumG> the cyclic fabrication one, yeah, pretty cool | 00:59 |
| ybit | you are referencing a paper i'm guessing, do you have a link? | 00:59 |
| fenn | you just pasted the link ybit | 01:01 |
| ybit | katsmeow-afk: what are you trying to say? i don't think i have it.. what exactly are you getting at? :) | 01:01 |
| ybit | oh, okay | 01:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | didn't answer the question, fenn | 01:02 |
| ybit | that was re: 0:49 < katsmeow-afk> i've often thoght the world wold be better off, more advanced, without all those lacking the gift of Aspergers | 01:02 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas? | 01:02 |
| fenn | i wouldn't mind if they werent the ones with guns pointed at me | 01:03 |
| QuantumG | http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss05/p16.pdf | 01:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | i'm sorry, having trouoble understanding, what was th question? | 01:03 |
| ybit | you think i should die is what i'm getting at ;) | 01:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | not what i said | 01:04 |
| ybit | go bye-bye | 01:04 |
| ybit | etc | 01:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | you could also infer i wished you'd been born with aspergers :-) | 01:04 |
| QuantumG | or that you thought he had | 01:05 |
| ybit | 00:05 < fenn> two people can see the same thing and understand it differently | 01:05 |
| ybit | oh, so true | 01:05 |
| fenn | good old natural language | 01:05 |
| fenn | "the future of computer programming" yeah right | 01:06 |
| * ybit doesn't see anything unnatural about constructed languages | 01:06 | |
| ybit | er, artificial* | 01:07 |
| * fenn doesn't see anything non-ambiguous about lojban | 01:07 | |
| * ybit checks in on the lojban compiler | 01:07 | |
| fenn | they got too hung up on being culture-neutral for anyone to be able to speak it | 01:08 |
| genehacker | heh | 01:08 |
| genehacker | esperanto has problems... | 01:09 |
| fenn | esperanto has at least one person who can speak it :\ | 01:09 |
| ybit | i don't think anyone would speak it anyway, just like esperanto, the majority of people will learn a language that is spoken by many others (eng,span.,etc.) | 01:09 |
| fenn | how about latin? nobody speaks latin except people who speak latin | 01:10 |
| ybit | which isn't many | 01:10 |
| fenn | i don't buy the chicken/egg argument | 01:10 |
| ybit | lojban may potentially gain ground when we can change substrates and still have this need of communicating audibly? | 01:11 |
| fenn | zroo? | 01:11 |
| ybit | doesn't ring a bell | 01:11 |
| fenn | substrate as in uploading? | 01:11 |
| ybit | yeah | 01:12 |
| fenn | are we communicating audibly right now? | 01:12 |
| fenn | i'm sure i'm missing the point entirely | 01:12 |
| ybit | the assumption is that most people will, if uploaded, rapidly gain the knowledge needed to understand the advantage of using a language such as lojban so that they use it... maybe there's an advantage in having conversation and thought logs in lojban for this surf tree analyzation thingie? ..or maybe there will be similar windows/linux war where some uploaded transapiens use lojban (resource efficient), representing linux and others will just use more | 01:16 |
| fenn | 'will just use more...' | 01:17 |
| QuantumG | parsing english isn't really that hard.. | 01:17 |
| QuantumG | what's hard is figuring out something useful to parse it into | 01:17 |
| fenn | QuantumG: but english is so ambiguous as to mean almost anything | 01:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | or the correct intended meaning | 01:17 |
| fenn | FURIOUSLY | 01:18 |
| QuantumG | even if I tell you exactly what it means, I challenge you to come up with a useful representation for it. | 01:18 |
| fenn | um, i mean, 'frsly' | 01:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | i can : COLORLESS GREEN IDEAS SLEEP FURIOUSLY | 01:18 |
| fenn | QuantumG: there may never be a theory of everything, but we can do a lot better than english | 01:19 |
| ybit | i now relate that sentence to bedtime | 01:19 |
| fenn | good night dear sir | 01:19 |
| * ybit isn't going to bed though | 01:19 | |
| fenn | but you should | 01:19 |
| fenn | it's past your bedtime | 01:20 |
| ybit | good point | 01:20 |
| * ybit lost track of time | 01:20 | |
| ybit | fenn convinced me to sleep :P | 01:20 |
| * ybit waves gn | 01:20 | |
| fenn | victory is mine! hahaha | 01:20 |
| * katsmeow-afk waves gnite too | 01:21 | |
| QuantumG | say you make a brand new language that is easier to parse.. what representation will you parse it into? | 01:21 |
| fenn | QuantumG: the idea was to skip natural languages altogether and start with the desired representation | 01:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | "internal language" | 01:21 |
| QuantumG | define that please :) | 01:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | the crap Cyc is saddled with | 01:21 |
| QuantumG | ya | 01:21 |
| QuantumG | and crap it is | 01:21 |
| fenn | internal language means basically "data structure" right? | 01:22 |
| QuantumG | try to represent "last night I went to the movies" in it. | 01:22 |
| QuantumG | enjoy. | 01:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | lol | 01:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, rules and data and their relations to each otehr | 01:22 |
| fenn | ok, what's so hard about that? | 01:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | go for it :-) | 01:22 |
| fenn | fine. | 01:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | i feel humans have a limit to introspection, and to hard-code everything , and not allow the ai to self realise is inherently hugely and fatally flawed | 01:23 |
| fenn | the problem is we want a definite answer | 01:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | other than compatable rulesets, nothing must be unmodifieable , so the ai can grow and optomise and internalise unforeseen situations | 01:25 |
| QuantumG | your representation is mostly determined by the operations you want to perform on the data, which is determined by the problem you're trying to solve. When you try to solve "ai", the problem is so ill defined that you've got so little idea of the operations you need that you can't even begin to create a representation :) | 01:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | sorta what QuantumG said | 01:25 |
| fenn | meh. i think people have just been making it too complicated | 01:25 |
| genehacker | mumbles something about deep structures | 01:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | like said before, i dunno what my motivation is for half of what i do, like breathe | 01:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, i agree | 01:26 |
| QuantumG | so I gave you a trick question.. represent "last night I went to the movies".. why? What problem are you trying to solve by representing that? | 01:26 |
| fenn | that's a trick question? | 01:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | QuantumG, that can evolve into a state in a timeline with "you" being "at" the "movies", and the "" cleared up later | 01:27 |
| QuantumG | if you don't have any idea what you want to do with that fact you could quite simply store it as is. | 01:27 |
| katsmeow-afk | true, but i feel it must belinked somehow for backtracking, hence timeline | 01:27 |
| fenn | we'd probably want to store the date, other context info, imagined scenarios | 01:28 |
| QuantumG | if you're trying to figure out if I attempted to murder fenn last night, you might want to store it as a timeline and incorporate information about the average duration of movies or even the schedule of movies in my local area for last night, etc. | 01:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | we cannot imagine other scenarios | 01:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | we dunno the duration of the movie you saw | 01:28 |
| QuantumG | its all about the application. | 01:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | the scedule, yeas, for verificatin, etc | 01:28 |
| fenn | i bet it was 1.3+-0.5hr | 01:28 |
| fenn | hmm ok longer than that | 01:29 |
| QuantumG | but hey, if you ask anyone to define an exam for an intelligence you'll get the form: fact, fact, fact, question. The bastards provide it in the most difficult way possible. | 01:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | i would not want a situation where a leading question could be asked, and illicit bad data due to guessing | 01:30 |
| fenn | QuantumG: that's a poor definition of intelligence | 01:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | "how did the man get downstairs after stealing the jewels" , that sorta question | 01:30 |
| QuantumG | its a practical definition and I've come to only care about the practical definitions :) "what can it do?" that's all that matters. | 01:31 |
| fenn | can it predict the future? that's all that matters | 01:31 |
| QuantumG | that's practical | 01:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | it can tie up 100's of people and burn millions of dollars! | 01:31 |
| QuantumG | unfortunately, also practical | 01:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | in the right place, i spose so | 01:32 |
| fenn | they must not be paying them very well | 01:32 |
| QuantumG | so long as you're not paying | 01:32 |
| QuantumG | or you're being forced to pay, thank you government | 01:32 |
| fenn | i dont mind being forced to pay as long as i'm guaranteed a job :) | 01:33 |
| QuantumG | slaves are guaranteed a job | 01:33 |
| genehacker | predicting the future? | 01:34 |
| fenn | being a slave isnt necessarily a terrible thing, it's being abused and lacking any choice that's bad | 01:34 |
| genehacker | why don't you go see a soothsayer | 01:34 |
| fenn | any buddhists in the audience feel free to disagree | 01:35 |
| QuantumG | I think the lacking any choice is the part that makes you a slave :) | 01:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | i remember when this channel had only 4 beings in it | 01:36 |
| fenn | QuantumG: so i'm a slave to planet Earth because there's no choice but to remain here? | 01:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | i wonder,, if you *thought* you had made the right choice, would that be slavery? | 01:37 |
| * fenn steers the meta-craft periliously close to the philosophical black hole | 01:37 | |
| fenn | nevermind. i don't have the stomach for it | 01:38 |
| * katsmeow-afk decides to make just one random ding in a thin piece of steel, just this once, and paints it with a rubber paint,, that's right, it's an isolated insident of an insolated isodent | 01:39 | |
| kanzure | so suddenly genehacker reads a paper that says the same thing we've been saying, but only now he believes it? | 01:39 |
| QuantumG | so anyway, I prefer to define my ai as being able to participate in "what do you mean by?" conversations and "and then what happened?" conversations and "did you try?" and "maybe if you try.." conversations.. because that basically sums up 90% of the conversations I have as a programmer :) | 01:40 |
| genehacker | saying what? | 01:40 |
| kanzure | ybit: it's on adl | 01:40 |
| fenn | that reprap is a dead end | 01:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas | 01:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas to QuantumG | 01:40 |
| fenn | i never actually said that, just that they aren't really trying to go anywhere | 01:40 |
| kanzure | fenn: there's a copy of reciprocality on archive.org | 01:40 |
| genehacker | ok | 01:41 |
| QuantumG | but even without that ability.. I think an ai that could do some reasoning and work towards goals would be sufficient for "fix this bug" problems.. couldn't be any worse than the jr programmers I put up with. | 01:41 |
| genehacker | oh well I didn't really see how reprap was a dead end until now | 01:42 |
| QuantumG | did you mention why? I might have missed it | 01:42 |
| genehacker | now how do we make polyurethane? | 01:42 |
| QuantumG | the lack of assembly? | 01:43 |
| fenn | you can't make an extruder out of melted plastic | 01:43 |
| fenn | how do you explain the concept of "closed space" in non-mathy terms? | 01:43 |
| genehacker | closed space? | 01:44 |
| fenn | er, no, that was from haruhi suzumiya | 01:44 |
| genehacker | oh that was what that was from | 01:44 |
| QuantumG | draw a circle, say "the inside is an open space, but once you include the border, it is closed." | 01:44 |
| QuantumG | then you can explain getting closer and closer to the border but never reaching it | 01:45 |
| QuantumG | and how you could zoom in forever if the world was continuous. | 01:45 |
| genehacker | why explain it in not mathy terms? | 01:45 |
| fenn | if all you have are vectors on the X-axis, adding and subtracting them will never get you on the Y axis | 01:45 |
| QuantumG | if they keep listening, explain limits | 01:45 |
| fenn | In mathematics, a set is said to be closed under some operation if performance of that operation on members of the set always produces a member of the set. | 01:46 |
| fenn | well, the same idea applies to vector spaces | 01:47 |
| genehacker | oh shoot I remember that | 01:47 |
| genehacker | I guess I need to reread my matrix math stuff and unzip the datafiles in my head | 01:47 |
| genehacker | didn't really understand it | 01:48 |
| fenn | in this case, "operation" would be something like casting or machining | 01:49 |
| fenn | all the machining in the world won't add metal back on | 01:49 |
| genehacker | oh | 01:49 |
| genehacker | so reprap is a dead end because it will never be able to make the extruder with just printing | 01:50 |
| genehacker | could you explain the operation and what is being transformed in mathematical terms | 01:52 |
| kanzure | are you asking for fenn to be even more vague? | 01:52 |
| genehacker | no | 01:52 |
| genehacker | I want to see the algorithm | 01:52 |
| fenn | here's how i see things | 01:53 |
| fenn | there's this big physical world out there with a large number of possible states | 01:53 |
| QuantumG | isn't this why some of the reprap guys are trying to make that metal extruder? | 01:53 |
| fenn | there are so many states that we can't possibly imagine how to represent all of them, so we simplify and throw away some data by doing analysis | 01:53 |
| genehacker | how are they represented numerically? | 01:54 |
| QuantumG | how you're going to make that one is just fun with regression | 01:54 |
| fenn | the analysis yields a set of "dimensions" which are things like charge, length, time.. or even more abstract quantities like color or cost | 01:54 |
| kanzure | regressional analysis is sometimes known as "functional synthesis" for some weird reason | 01:54 |
| genehacker | more than 3 dimensions | 01:55 |
| genehacker | dang | 01:55 |
| fenn | as many dimensions as you like | 01:55 |
| genehacker | I really don't like things with more than 3 dimensions | 01:55 |
| fenn | the point is they have to represent things you are interested in, as QuantumG was saying | 01:55 |
| genehacker | because I don't have eyes to see such shapes | 01:55 |
| fenn | stop thinking about it as shapes | 01:55 |
| fenn | what i just did was transform reality from state space to parameter space | 01:56 |
| genehacker | ok | 01:57 |
| fenn | so anyway now we have a data structure with parameters like 'sphericalness=0.8' 'color=reddish' | 01:57 |
| genehacker | ok | 01:57 |
| fenn | this represents an actual physical object | 01:58 |
| genehacker | understood | 01:58 |
| genehacker | I'm hung up on the whole transformation thing | 01:58 |
| genehacker | how that's done on something that isn't exactly numerical | 01:58 |
| fenn | if you've designed your parameters correctly then each operation should modify one parameter only | 01:58 |
| genehacker | what is being transformed? | 01:59 |
| genehacker | metal into cylinders? | 01:59 |
| fenn | do you know what principal component analysis is? | 01:59 |
| genehacker | cylinders into cones via machining? | 01:59 |
| genehacker | no | 01:59 |
| fenn | not that sort of transformation | 01:59 |
| fenn | this is more like.. the magic eye optical illusion | 02:00 |
| * QuantumG waits for you to hit the intensional/extensional inheritance roadblock. | 02:00 | |
| fenn | you're staring at all this mess and then suddenly it turns into a dolphin | 02:00 |
| genehacker | never got those | 02:00 |
| genehacker | I am confused | 02:00 |
| genehacker | maybe I'm operating in lunatic mode | 02:00 |
| fenn | it is 2 am after all | 02:01 |
| genehacker | it is | 02:01 |
| QuantumG | extensional inheritance: inheritance between sets based on their members, intensional inheritance: inheritance between entity-types based on their properties | 02:01 |
| fenn | all these AI people are confusing me | 02:02 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: I suggest you stfu | 02:02 |
| genehacker | I should probably too | 02:02 |
| fenn | ok so an operation does something to one of your parameters | 02:03 |
| genehacker | oh | 02:03 |
| fenn | a turning operation reduces the diameter of a cylinder | 02:03 |
| fenn | a painting operation changes the color of the object | 02:03 |
| genehacker | and that operation doesn't have to be a matrix multiplying another matrix? | 02:03 |
| fenn | uh. sometimes matrix math just makes everything more confusing | 02:04 |
| genehacker | yeah I think that's what confused me | 02:04 |
| genehacker | fenn quick question | 02:05 |
| fenn | ok so now we have a set of parameters that represent our state, and a set of operations that can modify the parameters | 02:05 |
| genehacker | are you a mill demiexpert? | 02:05 |
| genehacker | are there any mills with rack and pinion drives? | 02:05 |
| fenn | the trick is to define a sequence of operations that gets you from the original state back to the original state | 02:05 |
| genehacker | answer second question if first is yes | 02:05 |
| fenn | genehacker: depends what you call a mill.. i just built a CNC router several months ago with rack and pinion drive | 02:06 |
| fenn | generally they suck because there's too much backlash and not enough force to cut metal | 02:06 |
| genehacker | ok | 02:07 |
| genehacker | backlash can be compensated for | 02:07 |
| fenn | not true | 02:07 |
| genehacker | with encoders? | 02:07 |
| fenn | if it could be compensated for, it wouldn't be a problem, but it can't | 02:07 |
| fenn | the spindle will bounce around faster than your motors can keep up | 02:08 |
| genehacker | how fast? | 02:08 |
| fenn | fast enough to break your tool | 02:08 |
| fenn | essentially the material/tool bit turns into a rack and pinion | 02:09 |
| genehacker | I'm not cutting metal | 02:09 |
| genehacker | I'm reading over that moses paper again | 02:09 |
| genehacker | I'm cutting wax | 02:09 |
| fenn | anyway are you satisfied with my explanation about closed process loops? | 02:10 |
| genehacker | yes | 02:10 |
| genehacker | WTF? | 02:13 |
| genehacker | winblows media player just died | 02:14 |
| genehacker | quicktime just died | 02:15 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.129.174] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] | 02:29 | |
| fenn | "The mapper wants to move from a large mass of software to a smaller one that is more robust because of its necessary and sufficient structure. The packers are not practiced at seeing the proposed new structure, and see only a maniac who wants to change every single file in one go." | 02:32 |
| fenn | yay mappers, woo! | 02:32 |
| fenn | i often have to fight myself not to edit every single file in a single commit | 02:33 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 198b6d8 /doc/todo/TODO: note to self | 02:39 |
| fenn | A classic mapper/packer battleground in programming consists of the mappers seeing that with what they know now, a reimplementation could be done in a fraction of the time, and would not suffer from maintenance issues that they see looming in the existing code. | 03:20 |
| fenn | The packers see the mappers insanely trying to destroy all their work b(as if there weren't backups), and repeat the last few months, which have been terrible because they obviously didn't know what they were doing anyway (they kept changing things). | 03:20 |
| fenn | The intelligent organisation wants the most understanding and the least source code it can acheive. The organisation stuck in inappropriate physical mass production models doesn't count understanding, and counts its worth by its wealth of source code, piled higher and deeper. | 03:20 |
| fenn | You will nearly always have to do a cleanup - the code that most organisations put in their repository is usually the first that passes all test cases. This does not matter. Do your own cleanup for this phase, regression test and don't even discuss your own deltas until you can see straight. | 03:24 |
| * fenn sleeps furiously | 03:29 | |
| -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@c-65-96-144-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 05:15 | |
| -!- splicer [n=patrik@h55n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 05:25 | |
| -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 05:30 | |
| -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@c-65-96-144-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] | 08:17 | |
| -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE2C3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:51 | |
| kanzure | fenn: did you go into the lab today? | 09:58 |
| -!- kardan_ [n=kardan@p54BE3536.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 10:08 | |
| fenn_adl | i was abducted by aliens | 10:27 |
| kanzure | a likely story | 10:28 |
| kanzure | but how am I going to deliver chocolate to entice you to write teh codez? | 10:29 |
| kanzure | ssh darmok@tanagra | 10:35 |
| fenn_adl | when the walls fell | 10:36 |
| kanzure | anything exciting? | 12:05 |
| fenn | what is the angle between (1,0,0) and (1,1,1)? | 12:12 |
| fenn | it's some funky number i can't make sense of | 12:12 |
| fenn | Direction(1,0,0).Angle(Direction(1,1,1))/(math.pi/180) | 12:13 |
| fenn | 54.735610317245339 | 12:13 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:16 | |
| kanzure | qalculator has a fractionalizer | 12:18 |
| fenn | aw now this can't be right | 12:20 |
| fenn | Direction(1,1,0).Angle(Direction(1,1,1))/(math.pi/180) | 12:20 |
| fenn | 35.264389682754661 | 12:20 |
| kanzure | where are these classes? | 12:21 |
| fenn | geom | 12:22 |
| fenn | Angle is an OCC method | 12:22 |
| kanzure | OCC.geom or skdb.geom? | 12:23 |
| fenn | damn acos(dot(d1,d2)) gives the same thing | 12:23 |
| fenn | skdb.geom of course | 12:23 |
| kanzure | maybe you don't know your angles | 12:24 |
| fenn | it's quite possible | 12:26 |
| fenn | so 1,1,0 to 1,1,1 is not the same as 1,0,0 to 1,0,1? | 12:27 |
| kanzure | aren't angles in 3-space called steradians? | 12:28 |
| fenn | now that i'm looking at it in heekscad it sems to be correct | 12:28 |
| fenn | no a steradian is a solid angle, like angle * angle | 12:29 |
| fenn | like square meters | 12:29 |
| kanzure | ok | 12:29 |
| fenn | "solid angle" doesn't really convey that does it | 12:29 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 12:30 | |
| fenn | angle([1,1,0],[1,1,math.sqrt(2)])/math.pi | 12:31 |
| fenn | 0.25000000000000006 | 12:31 |
| fenn | ok | 12:31 |
| kanzure | well? | 13:04 |
| fenn | well what? | 13:06 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 3cd4763 /paths.py: this didn't do what i meant anyway | 13:09 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 4d7be59 / (geom/geom.py paths.py): ooify Arrow, remove gp_Ax1 stuff | 13:09 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 8e7acd4 /geom/geom.py: redo doc string formatting with named parameters | 13:09 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 6a7e91e /geom/geom.py: clean rot | 13:09 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r b0928da /geom/geom.py: remove unused code. Translation/Rotation are replacements? | 13:09 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r ceba733 /unittests/test_geom.py: remove unused tests | 13:09 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 1e706dc /paths.py: test_coordinate_arrows works | 13:09 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:11 | |
| fenn | i'm still trying to test build_trsf | 13:12 |
| -!- genehackerclone [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:21 | |
| kanzure | test_coordinate_arrows works? | 13:21 |
| fenn | http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/coordinate_arrows.png http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/coordinate_flags.png http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/coordinate_flags2.png | 13:26 |
| kanzure | devil magic | 13:27 |
| kanzure | how'd you manage this? | 13:27 |
| fenn | it's basically the same code i had originally | 13:27 |
| kanzure | are you using SetTransformation? | 13:27 |
| fenn | using point_shape (now called point_along) | 13:27 |
| fenn | no, not using SetTransformation | 13:27 |
| fenn | still working on that | 13:28 |
| fenn | it seems to be correct so far but i dont really know how to test it rigorously | 13:28 |
| fenn | i guess i could just throw some legos at it, but you can never tell which part of the code is broken | 13:29 |
| fenn | right now i'm just trying to make 4 legos around the origin but that's not working so well (it only makes 3?) | 13:30 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@jes-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:36 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 13:38 | |
| -!- genehackercloneo is now known as genehacker | 13:44 | |
| -!- genehackerclone [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 13:53 | |
| genehacker | network trouble | 14:01 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:11 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/journals/institute-of-physics/ | 14:12 |
| kanzure | the institute of physics has a journal of neural engineering? huh | 14:13 |
| genehackercloneo | QUANTUM NEUROSCIENCE! | 14:14 |
| genehackercloneo | probably has something to do with MRI machines | 14:15 |
| -!- genehackerclone2 [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:20 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@jes-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 14:20 | |
| genehackerclone2 | whoa | 14:21 |
| genehackerclone2 | network is going mad | 14:21 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 7a47b06 / (geom/geom.py paths.py unittests/test_geom.py): redo build_trsf to not use SetTransformation, not working yet | 14:25 |
| fenn | kanzure: i hope you can figure out why the green and yellow bricks overlap (are my vectors correct?) | 14:26 |
| fenn | run paths.py | 14:26 |
| kanzure | how do I rm a file with a ^M in it? | 14:31 |
| fenn | rm ./foo* | 14:31 |
| fenn | i guess | 14:32 |
| kanzure | eh, I got it, but I had to move some other files around because the difference between those files and the one file that I wanted to delete was the special character in the spot where * would have been, but anyway | 14:32 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 14:34 | |
| fenn | kanzure: *poke* | 14:58 |
| fenn | any idea? | 14:58 |
| kanzure | blargh | 15:06 |
| kanzure | sorry was on the phone with alex | 15:06 |
| kanzure | er my brain is in talking-with-a-millionaire mode atm | 15:07 |
| kanzure | he got three or four calls in a one minute thirty second time span | 15:08 |
| fenn | poor guy | 15:08 |
| kanzure | so now I'm on like meta-hold or something | 15:09 |
| fenn | i guess that puts me on meta meta hold | 15:13 |
| * kanzure hangs fenn up | 15:13 | |
| * fenn drips on the floor | 15:14 | |
| kanzure | a phone doesn't drip on the floor | 15:14 |
| genehackerclone2 | it does when it's turned to liquid | 15:14 |
| genehackerclone2 | by either heat or solvent | 15:14 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:29 | |
| drazak_ | man | 15:38 |
| drazak_ | I'm making cDNA | 15:38 |
| kanzure | the million dollar callback | 15:47 |
| -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@c-66-30-120-168.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:49 | |
| xp_prg | I need help design my biopython synthetic biology class, anyone want to help me? | 15:52 |
| kanzure | did you write a synthetic biology module for biopython? | 15:53 |
| xp_prg | no | 15:53 |
| xp_prg | but I will probably do so :> | 15:53 |
| kanzure | what will it include? | 15:53 |
| xp_prg | probably inference routines to design the genese necessary for certain chemical pathways | 15:54 |
| xp_prg | Kanzure are you aware of any good opensource design tools for synthetic biology? | 15:54 |
| kanzure | but you're doing a class before you write the code? | 15:54 |
| xp_prg | ya | 15:54 |
| kanzure | why | 15:54 |
| kanzure | why not do it the other way around? | 15:54 |
| xp_prg | so I can get people to help me make the code | 15:55 |
| kanzure | that's not what a class is for | 15:55 |
| xp_prg | http://openwetware.org/wiki/Endy:Notebook/BioBrick_Studio-List | 15:55 |
| -!- wrldpc2_ [n=benny@c-66-30-120-168.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:55 | |
| xp_prg | this was supposed to show programs for synthetic biology and nothing is there | 15:55 |
| xp_prg | Kanzure I can show them how to work with dna etc... | 15:55 |
| kanzure | try celldesigner and taverna | 15:55 |
| xp_prg | with biopython, it won't be a waste of time | 15:56 |
| kanzure | but biopython already does that | 15:56 |
| xp_prg | right I am going to teach a class on biopython, what is hard to understand?! | 15:56 |
| kanzure | you said something about a synthetic biology class | 15:56 |
| xp_prg | yes using biopython for synthetic biology | 15:56 |
| kanzure | and then I asked if you had a synthetic biology module written | 15:56 |
| kanzure | and you said no | 15:56 |
| kanzure | so then I asked shouldn't you do it the other way around | 15:56 |
| xp_prg | there are libraries I can use for synthetic biology but are not necessarily packaged in that way right now | 15:57 |
| kanzure | libsbml looks fine to me imho | 15:57 |
| kanzure | honestly I think you should write the code first, then offer a class after you released the source code | 15:57 |
| kanzure | otherwise you're just stealing these people's money | 15:57 |
| xp_prg | its going to be a free class | 15:58 |
| xp_prg | chill!!!!!!!!! | 15:58 |
| kanzure | well you haven't written any of the code that you claim the class is about | 15:58 |
| kanzure | honestly I'm skeptical | 15:58 |
| xp_prg | help me make the lesson plan, I will write the code, I am a python programmer etc... | 15:58 |
| xp_prg | I did write some code for you if you recall | 15:58 |
| kanzure | aren't you supposed to be the teacher | 15:58 |
| kanzure | of this class? | 15:59 |
| xp_prg | yes | 15:59 |
| kanzure | and you don't have a lesson plan? | 15:59 |
| kanzure | and you don't have any synthetic biology module code written for biopython? | 15:59 |
| kanzure | honestly I don't see the point | 15:59 |
| kanzure | you have nothing apparently | 15:59 |
| kanzure | so why did you announce it on the mailing list already? | 16:00 |
| -!- wrldpc2_ [n=benny@c-66-30-120-168.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:00 | |
| xp_prg | dude I will have something | 16:00 |
| kanzure | but you already announced that you did | 16:00 |
| xp_prg | people are asking me to teach classes | 16:00 |
| kanzure | why? you're hardly qualified.. sorry. | 16:00 |
| xp_prg | they think so | 16:00 |
| xp_prg | instead of being difficult, how about helping me for a sec? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | I'm trying to show you that you're lying to them | 16:01 |
| kanzure | you made a fake announcement, you don't have any lesson plans, and you have no code | 16:01 |
| kanzure | why should I help you? | 16:01 |
| xp_prg | because it is the fist time in the history of diybio a class will be taught at the Tech Shop specifically for synthetic biology | 16:01 |
| xp_prg | who cares if I am the person who teaches it or not | 16:01 |
| kanzure | it sounds like it's going to suck | 16:01 |
| kanzure | because you've offered a class without any substance | 16:02 |
| xp_prg | it won't suck if I have a good lesson plan | 16:02 |
| kanzure | maybe you should come up with a lesson plan before you promise them a class? | 16:02 |
| xp_prg | did you see my last diybio virtual meeting? | 16:02 |
| xp_prg | I spent 97 minutes talking about stuff | 16:03 |
| kanzure | ok? | 16:03 |
| xp_prg | somone requested I write an article on gfp for their magazine | 16:03 |
| kanzure | so? | 16:03 |
| xp_prg | dude if you don't want to help me then don't, but stop waisting my time | 16:04 |
| kanzure | hahah | 16:04 |
| kanzure | you're wasting *my* time by saying you have a class but you don't | 16:05 |
| kanzure | who's wasting who's time? | 16:05 |
| kanzure | how about you write some code first, then show it to me? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | then maybe I can help you debug it ok? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | otherwise you're just bullshitting me | 16:06 |
| -!- genehackerclone2 [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 16:07 | |
| xp_prg | I have written code for you | 16:07 |
| kanzure | honestly I don't think they need to be taught biobench.swf | 16:07 |
| -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@c-66-30-120-168.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] | 16:07 | |
| xp_prg | but the ideas are useful, I can teach those, they are real, its not just nothingness like you think! | 16:08 |
| kanzure | what? | 16:09 |
| xp_prg | how about being more constructive and helping me? | 16:09 |
| kanzure | you ever hear the phrase "you can't help he who doesn't help himself" ? | 16:09 |
| xp_prg | bio bricks, codons, gfp, designing genes etc... | 16:09 |
| kanzure | what about it? | 16:09 |
| xp_prg | I will teach that | 16:09 |
| kanzure | you will teach what? | 16:09 |
| xp_prg | trying to think of the right way to present that in a lesson plan | 16:09 |
| xp_prg | yes I will | 16:09 |
| kanzure | what are you going to present? | 16:09 |
| xp_prg | synthetic biology common practices using bio python | 16:10 |
| kanzure | what common practices? | 16:10 |
| xp_prg | design of proteins and reverse engineerinng the dna to transcribe such proteins | 16:10 |
| kanzure | IMHO it sounds like you're just spouting out buzzwords | 16:11 |
| xp_prg | kanzure I know these concepts | 16:11 |
| kanzure | I know how to do reverse transcription, but do you really need to teach people how to do rna.to_dna() ? | 16:11 |
| xp_prg | I am not an expert at them but I know them | 16:11 |
| kanzure | so what if you know them? | 16:11 |
| kanzure | sigh | 16:11 |
| kanzure | you're just giving me a list of words | 16:11 |
| xp_prg | they want to kno them! | 16:11 |
| kanzure | a list of words? | 16:11 |
| xp_prg | its a class | 16:11 |
| kanzure | they can read the dictionary | 16:11 |
| xp_prg | well I want to make it more than just words and stuff, can you help me to make it better? | 16:12 |
| xp_prg | I will give you credit in the class for your help :> | 16:12 |
| kanzure | the problem is that it seems like you only know the words | 16:12 |
| kanzure | I can't help you if this is all you know | 16:12 |
| xp_prg | well ask me questions if you think I don't know anything | 16:12 |
| xp_prg | I know more than you think, go ahead | 16:12 |
| kanzure | but I don't want to ask you anything | 16:13 |
| kanzure | I just want you to write the damn code you're telling these people you have | 16:13 |
| xp_prg | *sigh* I will man, maybe not in the first class but there is enough biopython to teach a first class on | 16:13 |
| kanzure | well ok then we'll wait until you're ready. | 16:14 |
| xp_prg | you can't give me any ideas on synthetic biology concepts for my lesson plan? | 16:14 |
| xp_prg | 231 | 16:15 |
| xp_prg | oops wrong window | 16:15 |
| kanzure | maybe you should read the wikipedia article | 16:15 |
| kanzure | string grammars and biobrick compatibility analysis would be a good topic | 16:16 |
| xp_prg | I am looking for more current stuff, the latest techniques, you know more than I do on that stuff, I was hoping you could fill me in a little on it so I could at least present on it | 16:16 |
| kanzure | metabolic network xenotransplantation | 16:16 |
| xp_prg | oh cool, I was thinking of that as well! | 16:16 |
| kanzure | genetic dependency analysis and transplantation | 16:16 |
| xp_prg | excellent ok! | 16:17 |
| kanzure | what? | 16:17 |
| xp_prg | would it be ok if I came up with my lesson plan and you reviewed it for correctness? | 16:17 |
| xp_prg | it will be opensource | 16:17 |
| kanzure | you mean it will be GFDL? | 16:17 |
| xp_prg | I only know gpl | 16:18 |
| kanzure | gpl is for software | 16:18 |
| kanzure | if you email me something, I'll probably read it | 16:19 |
| xp_prg | sweet thanks for these ideas | 16:19 |
| kanzure | do you know what they mean? | 16:19 |
| xp_prg | It would be awsome if I could like show them some example of microfluidics in synthetic biology | 16:19 |
| kanzure | I thought you were doing biopython? | 16:19 |
| xp_prg | did I tell you I saw the lazer at the tech shop cutting arcylic? | 16:20 |
| xp_prg | I can make a microfluidic arcylic solution | 16:20 |
| ybit | should i toss copper wire away or store it? /me is curious what others think | 16:20 |
| kanzure | how much? | 16:20 |
| kanzure | hm is there a way to get LWP::Simple to follow 302s? | 16:22 |
| drazak_ | kanzure: do you know how to read spectometer readings of RNA? | 16:23 |
| drazak_ | kanzure: I know that 260/280 is purity, what's 260/230? | 16:23 |
| ybit | oh right, so it's about 20awg and about 609cm in length | 16:24 |
| kanzure | drazak_: no, I don't even know what units those are | 16:24 |
| drazak_ | kanzure: wavelength | 16:24 |
| ybit | every little bit helps?.. | 16:25 |
| kanzure | ybit: 6m sounds substantial | 16:25 |
| kanzure | drazak_: what does 260/280 refer to? which one is the wavelength? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | are you saying 260 is shifted to 280? | 16:29 |
| drazak_ | no | 16:29 |
| drazak_ | you take the response at wavelength 260 and divide by wavelength 280 | 16:30 |
| drazak_ | angstroms, for both | 16:30 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@jes-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:32 | |
| -!- bobke [n=bobke@84.194.115.89] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] | 16:32 | |
| -!- bobke [n=bobke@d54C27359.access.telenet.be] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:32 | |
| genehacker | so you got a callback? | 16:34 |
| kanzure | http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1345099&cid=29171455 "This is not to say that there isn't come magic genetic 'sudo' command that allows you to ask for a left kidney, medium size, but we haven't seen any sign of it yet." | 16:34 |
| kanzure | no, not yet | 16:35 |
| genehacker | heh | 16:40 |
| kanzure | " | 16:41 |
| kanzure | "Hello, this is tech support. We are seeing a large number of not-auth entries in your sudoer's log file. There are a great deal of entries for 'lolcat' for commands like 'get treat,' 'clean box' and 'tummy rub'..." " | 16:41 |
| bkero | om nom | 16:41 |
| genehacker | heh | 16:42 |
| kanzure | the image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/xeni/2453834326/ | 16:42 |
| genehacker | I really need some phosphoramidite nucleosides | 16:42 |
| genehacker | or at least protecting groups to make em | 16:42 |
| kanzure | what the fuck? | 16:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.saibot-1.com/ | 16:44 |
| -!- genehackerclone2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:50 | |
| CIA-32 | skdb: kanzure * r baef9be /doc/proposals/make_bot.py: pull yourself together, bot! | 16:56 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@jes-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 17:00 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@jes-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:02 | |
| genehackercloneo | http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=oven&st=cse | 17:08 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 17:14 | |
| -!- genehackerclone2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:17 | |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@jes-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:33 | |
| -!- genehacker243251 [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 17:33 | |
| genehacker243251 | dang it | 17:33 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 17:33 | |
| genehacker243251 | matlab won't let me make a bigger matrix | 17:33 |
| genehacker243251 | kanzure can I commit matlab code? | 17:38 |
| fenn | matlab code? | 17:39 |
| drazak_ | I am swimming in coffee | 17:39 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-129-174.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:43 | |
| -!- genehacker243251 is now known as genehacker | 17:45 | |
| genehacker | yes | 17:46 |
| genehacker | for making cycloidal gear profiles | 17:46 |
| kanzure | genehacker: yes you can commit matlab code | 17:54 |
| genehacker | how? | 17:54 |
| kanzure | it's just two or three commands if you're on linux | 17:54 |
| kanzure | are you on linux? | 17:54 |
| genehacker | no | 17:54 |
| genehacker | can't run citrix in linux | 17:54 |
| kanzure | well when you are, I can walk you through it I guess | 17:54 |
| kanzure | do you have the code on your hard drive? | 17:55 |
| genehacker | no | 17:55 |
| kanzure | oh, well a first step would be putting it on your hard drive | 17:55 |
| genehacker | oh wait | 17:55 |
| fenn | just put it on pastebin | 18:00 |
| kanzure | genehacker: do you have it? | 18:26 |
| ybit | what chemicals are produced during sexual intercourse? | 18:38 |
| ybit | human sexual intercourse* | 18:38 |
| ybit | oxytocin and dopamine i'm aware of, but aren't there others? | 18:39 |
| ybit | Vasopressin | 18:41 |
| ybit | http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=567964 | 18:42 |
| ybit | "The science of sex" | 18:43 |
| * ybit wants to know where the papers are | 18:46 | |
| ybit | "These studies have generated testable hypotheses regarding the motivational systems and underlying molecular neurobiology involved in social engagement and social bond formation that may have important implications for the core social deficits characterizing autism spectrum disorders." | 18:48 |
| ybit | ^ http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/361/1476/2187.abstract :: "Oxytocin, vasopressin and pair bonding: implications for autism" | 18:49 |
| ybit | just trying to find an alternative to regulating these chemicals aside from sexual intercourse | 18:50 |
| ybit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_steroid maybe? | 18:58 |
| kanzure | oxytocin and dopamine have broad and general targets | 19:00 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/women/ | 19:00 |
| kanzure | hm my women folder is down? | 19:00 |
| ybit | alright, enough of that. anyway, the reason i was asking about e-bombs yesterday is because i was thinking of future substrates for the mind and protecting the from destruction | 19:01 |
| kanzure | had various papers on bartholin's glands and breast SNP papers or something | 19:01 |
| ybit | enough of that because masturbation has too many benefits that we may not be able to facilitate atm | 19:02 |
| ybit | just read a study showing that guys in their 20s who do it ~4-6x week had about 1/3 less chance of having testicular cancer | 19:04 |
| ybit | mostly though, i'd like to know every chemical associated with any type of sexual intercourse what their specific functions are </me wishes> | 19:05 |
| ybit | time to get cracking on the bran.yaml | 19:05 |
| ybit | brain* | 19:05 |
| kanzure | branflakes | 19:06 |
| fenn | cracklin oat brain | 19:06 |
| -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: ANGRY. I'm an ANGRY scientist. ..but, am I angry enough? | 19:08 | |
| ybit | grrs | 19:08 |
| ybit | is the angry scientist comment from some presentation? | 19:09 |
| -!- any92737883 [n=someone@75-120-46-2.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:09 | |
| kanzure | no | 19:09 |
| ybit | reference please? | 19:09 |
| kanzure | Sheep in the Big City | 19:09 |
| drazak_ | tarbo2_: serotonin is increased by dopamine | 19:10 |
| drazak_ | iirc | 19:10 |
| kanzure | serotonin and dopamine are implicated in almost everything | 19:10 |
| kanzure | sorry, you'll have to be more specific than that | 19:11 |
| drazak_ | er | 19:11 |
| drazak_ | that was for ybit | 19:11 |
| genehacker | kanzure it needs to be commented and cleaned | 19:17 |
| -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-31-220.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 19:22 | |
| -!- Phreedom_ [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] | 19:23 | |
| -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:23 | |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r d396130 /doc/proposals/files-vs-database: blarg | 19:57 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: fenn * r 89bd4ee / (4 files in 4 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb | 19:57 |
| -!- genehacker243251 [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:06 | |
| ybit | is anyone working on an flos exoskeleton? | 20:11 |
| genehacker243251 | flos? | 20:11 |
| ybit | free/libre open source | 20:12 |
| genehacker243251 | maybe | 20:12 |
| ybit | you know of someone? | 20:12 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://www.skype.com/go/getskype-linux-deb | 20:13 |
| ybit | boooh to skype | 20:14 |
| ybit | also get the skype call recorder why your at it | 20:15 |
| ybit | think it's in one of the ubuntu repos | 20:15 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 20:17 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:17 | |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 20:17 | |
| genehacker243251 | whoa | 20:17 |
| genehacker243251 | NETWORK MADNESS | 20:17 |
| ybit | so... genehacker243251 do you know of someone who is working on such an exoskeleton? | 20:18 |
| ybit | http://personalrobotics.stanford.edu/ | 20:19 |
| ybit | long time since i've seen this | 20:19 |
| ybit | i still want it | 20:20 |
| fenn | is skype substantially different from VOIP/SIP besides being a pain in my ass? | 20:20 |
| kanzure | just dpkg -i the deb | 20:21 |
| fenn | why am i using skype again? | 20:21 |
| kanzure | because someone might give you or me money? | 20:21 |
| ybit | http://personalrobotics.intel-research.net/papers.php | 20:21 |
| fenn | i don't really see the connection there | 20:21 |
| ybit | because the guy who may give you money uses skype? | 20:22 |
| ybit | alternatives: sip | mumble | 20:22 |
| fenn | it's so past my bedtime | 20:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: stay up for maybe one more hour? | 20:23 |
| fenn | awake != intelligent and useful | 20:23 |
| ybit | http://stair.stanford.edu/papers.php | 20:23 |
| genehacker243251 | sleep is for slackers | 20:24 |
| fenn | why does everyone have to pounce on me at 7 pm on monday | 20:25 |
| fenn | with 0 warning | 20:25 |
| fenn | this is stupid | 20:25 |
| fenn | fuck telephones | 20:25 |
| kanzure | it turns out he would prefer not using the telephone | 20:25 |
| -!- any92737883 is now known as katsmeow | 20:28 | |
| genehacker243251 | hmmm.... | 20:28 |
| genehacker243251 | now should I give matlab more memory or not? | 20:28 |
| kanzure | cut it off | 20:28 |
| -!- Joseph [n=chatzill@adsl-157-138-244.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:28 | |
| kanzure | hey Joseph | 20:29 |
| genehacker243251 | If I give matlab more memory then I risk crashing the appserver | 20:29 |
| genehacker243251 | otherwise I risk not having my part | 20:29 |
| Joseph | Ok I am in here | 20:29 |
| Joseph | nothing very new to report on the pcr, I am trying to see if the chem prof has the old prototype that was done in 07 | 20:30 |
| kanzure | so I was hoping to make sure we're all on the same page | 20:30 |
| kanzure | IIRC, this was the $10 thermocycler paper right? | 20:30 |
| genehacker243251 | pcr machines? | 20:30 |
| Joseph | correct | 20:30 |
| genehacker243251 | oh that | 20:30 |
| Joseph | we need to either get this old demo or build something comparable | 20:31 |
| Joseph | for showing in San Diego and or Bay area | 20:31 |
| fenn | the light bulb + flower pot? | 20:31 |
| fenn | or the resistor + teflon tubing? | 20:31 |
| genehacker243251 | got the design for the old demo? | 20:31 |
| kanzure | hold on I'm finding the link | 20:31 |
| -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:31 | |
| Joseph | I don't know the status of the other diy projects was actuall going to hear from Mac about whatever Tito's group was doing | 20:31 |
| genehacker243251 | I got access to a machine shop | 20:31 |
| kanzure | hey parolang | 20:31 |
| parolang | hi | 20:31 |
| genehacker243251 | unfortunately others don't | 20:31 |
| kanzure | http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/resolvedoi?DOI=10.1002/ange.200700306 | 20:32 |
| kanzure | "A pocket sized convective thermocycler" | 20:32 |
| parolang | Saw an article with transhumanist theme on slashdot, rekindled my interest for the moment. Thought I'd lurk to see what's going on :) | 20:32 |
| kanzure | by Ugaz @ tamu | 20:32 |
| genehacker243251 | oh dear god what have I done | 20:32 |
| genehacker243251 | tamu? | 20:33 |
| kanzure | genehacker243251: Joseph has bought the licensing rights to the device | 20:33 |
| genehacker243251 | do we have someone from a&m? | 20:33 |
| Joseph | correct | 20:33 |
| kanzure | no | 20:33 |
| Joseph | we have the original inventor Nitin | 20:33 |
| Joseph | who has moved on | 20:33 |
| genehacker243251 | and what do you intend to do with them? | 20:33 |
| fenn | http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/A%20Pocket-Sezied%20Convective%20PCR%20Thermocycler.pdf | 20:33 |
| kanzure | sezied? | 20:33 |
| kanzure | typo fenn? | 20:33 |
| fenn | i didnt typo it | 20:33 |
| kanzure | huh | 20:33 |
| genehacker243251 | yeah I know that paper | 20:33 |
| Joseph | at a lab now at Washington, then prof Ugaz is supposed to do some work with us | 20:34 |
| Joseph | Ok so we got the option to license it, 18 month period | 20:34 |
| kanzure | anyway it was just a battery and some plastic capillary IIRC | 20:34 |
| Joseph | and informal agreement to give TAMU 3% or something on each unit that is eventually sold | 20:34 |
| ybit | so what's the big deal about licensing the device? | 20:34 |
| kanzure | a heat block assembly, a flow loop, a small PCB | 20:34 |
| Joseph | we had to go through them to get it--they followed up the provisional patent, thought it had potential | 20:34 |
| Joseph | otherwise could have just picked up the design | 20:35 |
| Joseph | but if it became popular, they would find out and shut us down | 20:35 |
| genehacker243251 | so is anything being done with it or is it stagnating? | 20:35 |
| Joseph | just blackmail money pretty much | 20:35 |
| Joseph | It was sitting there | 20:35 |
| Joseph | until I found some folks to make them an offer | 20:35 |
| genehacker243251 | was or is? | 20:35 |
| Joseph | Most university tech is like this | 20:35 |
| genehacker243251 | oh | 20:35 |
| kanzure | the idea is that the flow takes a longer time to go through the extension portion of the process on the extension portion of the tube | 20:36 |
| Joseph | Now we have our group together but trying to replicate the prototype and improve from proof of principle | 20:36 |
| Joseph | to commercial ready | 20:36 |
| Joseph | and we've not raised any money yet | 20:36 |
| fenn | who is "our group"? | 20:36 |
| kanzure | not sure how the flow control works though | 20:36 |
| Joseph | Jim Harday, Guido, Rik Weihberg, and Rob Carlson | 20:36 |
| Joseph | Biodesic is the company Rob/Rik | 20:37 |
| genehacker243251 | didn't think there was any flow control kanzure | 20:37 |
| genehacker243251 | did you read any of that microfluidics book I sent you | 20:37 |
| fenn | Joseph: are there any engineers in the group? | 20:37 |
| kanzure | genehacker243251: then how do you make sure it moves? just thermal convection? | 20:37 |
| Joseph | right | 20:37 |
| Joseph | Rob is microfluidics | 20:37 |
| Joseph | Rik is electrical | 20:37 |
| Joseph | we initially thought they would do this phase at cost | 20:37 |
| Joseph | now there are cold feet | 20:37 |
| Joseph | rumblings of not being able to work for free | 20:38 |
| Joseph | trying to sort this out | 20:38 |
| fenn | i can understand.. you want people to do free work and then sell the result | 20:38 |
| Joseph | well | 20:38 |
| Joseph | we want to all be on board | 20:38 |
| Joseph | to share any upside | 20:38 |
| Joseph | I am happy to bring anybody in | 20:38 |
| Joseph | with equity | 20:38 |
| Joseph | or contract stipulating | 20:38 |
| Joseph | X % | 20:38 |
| Joseph | of revenues | 20:38 |
| Joseph | but we have to hammer that out up front | 20:38 |
| Joseph | it is unclear how many units it will sell, if any | 20:39 |
| fenn | so, how much percentage is designing, programming, and building it worth? :P | 20:39 |
| Joseph | could work on it for 12 months and go nowhere | 20:39 |
| Joseph | well I don't know, since Jim and I are 50/50 we can then form another LLC | 20:39 |
| Joseph | perhaps in vermonth | 20:39 |
| Joseph | has a new virtual triple L | 20:40 |
| Joseph | lor profit LLC | 20:40 |
| Joseph | low | 20:40 |
| Joseph | split % that way | 20:40 |
| kanzure | don't you think that the magic happens in making it work, joseph? | 20:40 |
| Joseph | sure | 20:40 |
| Joseph | but everybody has to feel like they get what they want | 20:40 |
| Joseph | otherwise it degenerates | 20:41 |
| fenn | i want a pony, and some cookies, and a heart transplant | 20:41 |
| Joseph | ha ha | 20:41 |
| genehacker243251 | there are some algorithms for doing such things | 20:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: we've already gone over this, you have no heart | 20:41 |
| fenn | exactly | 20:41 |
| genehacker243251 | I believe they are called pie cutting algorithms | 20:41 |
| fenn | what's that then, an implant? | 20:41 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:41 |
| kanzure | genehacker243251: it doesn't matter. imho, he who does not bake the pie, shouldn't get the pie just because they were thinking of the pie | 20:42 |
| kanzure | that's called "intellectual property bullshit" | 20:42 |
| genehacker243251 | ok | 20:42 |
| fenn | uh oh | 20:42 |
| fenn | i feel compelled to start philosophizing | 20:42 |
| Joseph | I agree but am unfortunately still compelled to deal with people wanting return on investment | 20:42 |
| kanzure | Joseph: but really, I'd like to make this device, and I'd like to make it happen too | 20:42 |
| kanzure | Joseph: what investment though? | 20:43 |
| Joseph | and needing to raise capital | 20:43 |
| kanzure | but this device just costs 10 bucks | 20:43 |
| Joseph | We will have to specify this | 20:43 |
| Joseph | Rob/Rik are giving radically different estimates | 20:43 |
| Joseph | from what you think is feasible | 20:43 |
| fenn | i don't really get why you need my help to wrap some plastic tubing around a resistor? | 20:43 |
| Joseph | hehe | 20:43 |
| Joseph | well this is more of a rush job to have something to show | 20:43 |
| Joseph | in 8 wks | 20:44 |
| fenn | on the other hand, it probably doesn't work as advertised and i'll end up re-engineering it from scratch | 20:44 |
| Joseph | it is also valuable to replicate | 20:44 |
| Joseph | Nitin's result | 20:44 |
| fenn | but if i'm going to do that i would probably choose a different methodology | 20:44 |
| Joseph | which needed to be our first step | 20:44 |
| fenn | so. yeah. | 20:44 |
| fenn | also have to build/acquire some way to verify that it works | 20:44 |
| fenn | i haven't really looked into how hard it is to get PCR kits | 20:45 |
| fenn | but then if it's easy, what is this thing for? | 20:45 |
| genehacker243251 | make magazine has some information on how to do PCR | 20:45 |
| kanzure | genehacker243251: we know how to do pcr | 20:45 |
| fenn | make magazine is bullshit | 20:45 |
| genehacker243251 | and most importantly how to obtain the chemicals | 20:45 |
| Joseph | Stuff may be easy for you guys | 20:46 |
| fenn | no, nothing is ever easy | 20:46 |
| Joseph | but most kids are not gonna do this | 20:46 |
| Joseph | idea is to introduce a very cheap machine | 20:46 |
| Joseph | for those that aren't going to start out hacking | 20:46 |
| Joseph | their own | 20:46 |
| kanzure | Joseph: I would find it very hard to justify spending more than $10k on this project *overall*-- all the way to production of the first few kits. | 20:47 |
| fenn | genehacker243251: is this what you were thinking of? http://makezine.com/07/fingerprinting/ | 20:47 |
| Joseph | but would buy one for lets say---right now we think 50$ | 20:47 |
| genehacker243251 | yeah | 20:47 |
| genehacker243251 | they didn't even use restriction enzymes | 20:47 |
| kanzure | so my point is that if you guys are getting so much money built up, | 20:47 |
| kanzure | then it shouldn't be too hard to just let fenn and/or me do it well | 20:48 |
| Joseph | sure, well | 20:48 |
| fenn | why would you pay for a patent that hasn't been replicated? | 20:48 |
| fenn | wtf | 20:48 |
| Joseph | The patent is pretty much because you have to have this to play the game right now | 20:49 |
| fenn | but you don't even know if it works | 20:50 |
| Joseph | it is a self fulfilling prophecy more than anything else | 20:50 |
| Joseph | that is the absurdity | 20:50 |
| Joseph | of the system | 20:50 |
| fenn | you don't have to tell anyone you built it | 20:50 |
| Joseph | investors will not talk without you clearing the patent | 20:50 |
| Joseph | you could build the thing for your own testing I guess first | 20:50 |
| fenn | i thought the point of the investors was to pay for all this licensing crap | 20:50 |
| Joseph | but if it works and you want to offer them for sale then you got to go through the rights holder | 20:50 |
| kanzure | but you don't even know if it works yet | 20:51 |
| kanzure | or if it can be repeated | 20:51 |
| Joseph | well we have a good indication from the paper | 20:51 |
| fenn | i'm skeptical about the whole convection thing | 20:51 |
| kanzure | the guy who wrote the paper also got the patent | 20:51 |
| Joseph | but I agree, I'd prefer TAMU and others had put more into this and then we pick it up--no the patent is assigned | 20:51 |
| Joseph | to the University | 20:51 |
| Joseph | we just contacted the inventor because he is most familiar with it | 20:52 |
| Joseph | we have not obligation even to deal with him | 20:52 |
| Joseph | it just sits with TAMU | 20:52 |
| Joseph | unless somebody gets it out of purgatory | 20:52 |
| Joseph | Nitin has moved on to a new lab, wants to continue work on his machine | 20:53 |
| Joseph | so we will make him part | 20:53 |
| Joseph | of the enterprise | 20:53 |
| fenn | this is ridiculous | 20:53 |
| Joseph | yeh well the process of forming companies is kind of ridiculous but the alternative | 20:53 |
| Joseph | is to just throw the thing out and hope it gets made | 20:53 |
| Joseph | and I do not think there is incentive to scale production of it | 20:54 |
| Joseph | just by users and DIY folks | 20:54 |
| fenn | i don't see where the market is | 20:54 |
| Joseph | thats what we have to gauge | 20:54 |
| Joseph | there are multiple markets | 20:54 |
| Joseph | Defense | 20:54 |
| fenn | *cough*yeahright*cough* | 20:54 |
| katsmeow | usa Defense Dept?? | 20:55 |
| fenn | they're going to use some plastic tubing wrapped around a resistor to test for anthrax? | 20:55 |
| Joseph | DOD and such have looked for cheap portable pcr for years | 20:55 |
| Joseph | hehe | 20:55 |
| Joseph | well the end result has to substantially more than | 20:55 |
| Joseph | the plastic tubing | 20:55 |
| Joseph | hence Rik/Rob's estimates | 20:55 |
| Joseph | of 6.5 months development time and quite significant cash 80-100K | 20:56 |
| fenn | lol | 20:56 |
| kanzure | hahah | 20:56 |
| fenn | how are you coming up with these numbers? | 20:56 |
| Joseph | I've not asked for a break down yet but we can do that | 20:56 |
| kanzure | woah | 20:56 |
| kanzure | you can do that when? | 20:56 |
| Joseph | just based on their industry rates | 20:56 |
| Joseph | this is what they estimate | 20:57 |
| Joseph | parts + the contracting rates | 20:57 |
| fenn | rik/rob estimate they will charge 80-100k to develop a usb coffee heater? | 20:57 |
| Joseph | which are not cheap evidently | 20:57 |
| Joseph | ha ha | 20:57 |
| fenn | which one of us is disconnected from reality? | 20:57 |
| Joseph | I've not pushed them to break it down but we'll do that this week, line by line | 20:57 |
| Joseph | Well, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle--currently the need for profit drives costs up | 20:58 |
| Joseph | all down the line | 20:58 |
| Joseph | each supplier | 20:58 |
| Joseph | has to charge above cost | 20:58 |
| Joseph | to pay his debts | 20:58 |
| Joseph | and it all goes back to the debt money interest paradigm | 20:58 |
| Joseph | so indeed all this PHYSICALLY can be done much less | 20:58 |
| fenn | i thought factories were supposed to make things cheaper | 20:58 |
| Joseph | ECONOMICALLY it doesn't yet work this way | 20:58 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by that? | 20:59 |
| kanzure | for the past month I have been working on a pcr thermocycler | 20:59 |
| Joseph | so any supplier of any widget | 20:59 |
| kanzure | and it has had nothing to do with my economic situation | 20:59 |
| Joseph | has to enter a market in which he's up against | 20:59 |
| Joseph | others charging beyond cost | 20:59 |
| kanzure | I've done simulations and some preliminary designs | 20:59 |
| Joseph | this is the essence of profit | 20:59 |
| kanzure | and this has costed me nothing except a few moments of my time | 20:59 |
| Joseph | You are making for your own use | 20:59 |
| Joseph | USE Value | 20:59 |
| fenn | you'd have to sell 10,000 just to make up for development cost.. | 20:59 |
| Joseph | now if you are to enter and try to start making these for others | 21:00 |
| Joseph | you will soon | 21:00 |
| Joseph | see that you can't keep pace and fill these orders | 21:00 |
| kanzure | yes I can | 21:00 |
| Joseph | without then requiring more | 21:00 |
| kanzure | I have factories | 21:00 |
| kanzure | btw here's the simulation work I mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPY84NelFO4 | 21:00 |
| * fenn notes that sarcasm doesn't transfer very well on the internets | 21:01 | |
| kanzure | ok anyway | 21:01 |
| kanzure | Joseph: I think that you're being scammed significantly | 21:01 |
| kanzure | and for half of what the estimates are, | 21:01 |
| kanzure | you can get a lot done | 21:01 |
| kanzure | by you I mean we | 21:01 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 21:02 | |
| Joseph | Ok let me press Rik/Rob and get detailed break down | 21:02 |
| Joseph | we will compare notes then | 21:02 |
| ybit | so genehacker243251 you never answered.. you know of someone building an exoskeleton? | 21:02 |
| kanzure | Joseph: ok sounds like a plan | 21:02 |
| kanzure | Joseph: who is rik? | 21:02 |
| ybit | some electrical guy he mentioned earlier | 21:02 |
| Joseph | Carlson's partner | 21:03 |
| Joseph | elec engineer | 21:03 |
| kanzure | is that all we know about him? | 21:03 |
| Joseph | at their design company | 21:03 |
| Joseph | hehe | 21:03 |
| kanzure | oh they have a design company? | 21:03 |
| Joseph | pretty much | 21:03 |
| Joseph | Rob's company | 21:03 |
| Joseph | does boutique engineering | 21:03 |
| Joseph | it seems | 21:03 |
| kanzure | so they go around making these scams full time? | 21:03 |
| kanzure | boutique? | 21:03 |
| Joseph | Ha ha | 21:03 |
| kanzure | haha | 21:03 |
| Joseph | I dont know that they think of it as a scam | 21:03 |
| Joseph | but they do "specialty" | 21:03 |
| ybit | grrs, i'm going to go out on a limb and so nobody is developing an exoskeleton that is free/os | 21:03 |
| Joseph | engineering I take it | 21:03 |
| ybit | s/so/say | 21:03 |
| kanzure | ybit: fenn is. | 21:03 |
| fenn | ybit: fraid not | 21:04 |
| fenn | it's been pushed down the priority list a ways | 21:04 |
| kanzure | meh, skdb is part of it | 21:04 |
| kanzure | ybit: frikin' download the repo | 21:04 |
| kanzure | git clone http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git | 21:04 |
| kanzure | :p | 21:04 |
| ybit | kanzure: already got it | 21:04 |
| kanzure | bah | 21:04 |
| kanzure | have you installed pythonOCC yet? | 21:04 |
| ybit | bah, i think it's more like git fetch these days | 21:04 |
| ybit | kanzure: sometime last month | 21:05 |
| ybit | along with occ | 21:05 |
| Joseph | Ok I gotta get some good, we will flesh out the estimates and can hash it out | 21:05 |
| Joseph | grub | 21:05 |
| Joseph | food | 21:05 |
| Joseph | I meant | 21:05 |
| kanzure | Joseph: okay. cya :) | 21:05 |
| Joseph | typo | 21:05 |
| fenn | chow | 21:05 |
| kanzure | ha | 21:05 |
| Joseph | Ok talk soon, let me know how it goes with the LA stuff | 21:05 |
| kanzure | yeah sure | 21:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: this is why we need a real fab lab in austin.. i could have this done by the end of the week | 21:06 |
| ybit | getting same output with ./wpro -r -l1 --user-agent="Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092416 Firefox/3.0.3" -A pdf http://personalrobotics.intel-research.net/papers.php | 21:06 |
| ybit | http://code.bulix.org/ux8uhv-72038 | 21:06 |
| ybit | anyone want to take a stab at it? | 21:07 |
| ybit | alright so nobody is developing exoskeleton, just need to grab a few papers then.. | 21:08 |
| kanzure | superkuh had some | 21:08 |
| -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/ | 21:11 | |
| fenn | i would really like to at least finish the lego snapping simulator before jumping into homebrew pcr | 21:12 |
| fenn | <- does not multitask | 21:12 |
| kanzure | yeah I know what you mean | 21:12 |
| kanzure | I think that's reasonable | 21:12 |
| ybit | kanzure: i need an address to send the 1tb hdd to | 21:13 |
| fenn | Joseph: the spiral microfluidic pcr plate looked like a much better idea.. sorry if you wasted money on a patent | 21:17 |
| fenn | you can control the number of cycles simply by changing the number of turns of the spiral | 21:17 |
| fenn | i still can't figure out how you're supposed to load a sample into the TAMU device | 21:18 |
| fenn | "PCR reagents are pipetted directly into 9cm long tubing segments and then the free ends are joined together by a small sleeve of larger diameter tygon tubing to yield a loop" | 21:19 |
| fenn | but how do you get all the air bubbles out? | 21:19 |
| ybit | ..unless you don't mind me mirroring fetching at certain hours | 21:23 |
| bkero | Did somebody say homebrew pcr? :) | 21:23 |
| bkero | kanzure: Your site's down | 21:24 |
| ybit | new unread papers: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/?C=M;O=D | 21:24 |
| bkero | mysql server's down really | 21:24 |
| kanzure | bah | 21:26 |
| kanzure | my site is always online | 21:26 |
| kanzure | uhrm. | 21:26 |
| kanzure | yeah it should be up | 21:26 |
| * ybit fetches the lie detector | 21:26 | |
| ybit | Multi-Fingered Exoskeleton Haptic Device | 21:29 |
| ybit | using Passive Force Feedback for Dexterous Teleoperation | 21:29 |
| ybit | http://lims.mech.northwestern.edu/projects/finger_exo/koyama_iros02-multi_fingered_exoskeleton_haptic_device.pdf | 21:29 |
| ybit | Design of a Haptic Arm Exoskeleton for Training and Rehabilitation | 21:31 |
| ybit | http://www.mems.rice.edu/~abhi/pubs/TMECH2006.pdf | 21:32 |
| drazak_ | kanzure: So, the blackbox idea works with plasmids in mammilian cells, however it does not work with organelles, rna alone, and protein alone in other cells | 21:41 |
| drazak_ | kanzure: IMO if you want a blackbox system you do it with plasmids in mammilian cells, we understand quite well how to make a plasmid, how to activate a plasmid, and how to insert plasmids | 21:42 |
| kanzure | are you talking about your idea or the email on diybio | 21:43 |
| drazak_ | email on diybio | 21:44 |
| kanzure | then I don't see how your comments from just a few seconds ago matter | 21:45 |
| kanzure | I never said to treat an organelle as a black box | 21:45 |
| drazak_ | what I'm saying is that if you're going to try and use a biological component as a blackbox, a plasmid is the way to go, not some other component | 21:45 |
| -!- nchaimov [n=cowtown@c-24-21-45-17.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] | 21:54 | |
| kanzure | the plasmid isn't the black box | 21:55 |
| kanzure | the black box is computer data | 21:55 |
| ybit | can't access http://jvc.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/12/1311 | 21:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/front-page/jlist.csv | 22:06 |
| kanzure | i <3 pubmedcentral | 22:06 |
| -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:07 | |
| kanzure | http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/front-page/jlist.csv | 22:08 |
| kanzure | i <3 pubmedcentral | 22:08 |
| superkuh | kanzure: My website will be down for a week or two until I can get a proper internet connection at my new apartment. (I think you were one of those mirroring /Library) | 22:11 |
| kanzure | No, haven't been mirroring it recently. ybit in here has been asking about it recently though. | 22:12 |
| ybit | see: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/?C=M;O=D | 22:19 |
| ybit | quite a few exoskeleton papers and others that i just haven't moved to the folder for some reason | 22:19 |
| ybit | and i think one of them is a repeat of what might be in microfluidics dir or the papers dir | 22:20 |
| ybit | created an exoskeletons dir in papers/ but couldn't write to it for some reason | 22:22 |
| ybit | either it needs to be deleted or i need write permissions to it?.. | 22:22 |
| kanzure | you're already a part of the "lab" usergroup | 22:23 |
| kanzure | drwxr-sr-x 2 ybit lab 4096 2009-08-24 22:10 exoskeletons | 22:23 |
| kanzure | you have write permissions now | 22:24 |
| ybit | yeah, it just did it | 22:24 |
| ybit | kanzure: would you consider setting up a proxy? | 22:25 |
| kanzure | adl isn't good enough? | 22:25 |
| ybit | it would be much less time consuming browsing using konqueror over ssh | 22:25 |
| ybit | took me forever to grab those papers | 22:25 |
| kanzure | sorry, what? | 22:25 |
| kanzure | X should work | 22:26 |
| ybit | oh, guess that is confusing | 22:26 |
| ybit | -X -Y works, it's just very slow | 22:26 |
| kanzure | then just use the CLI | 22:26 |
| ybit | right, links is fast but it can't grab certain pdfs | 22:26 |
| ybit | and the problem with links is i don't have a quick way of copying/pasting titles when naming the downloads | 22:27 |
| kanzure | like sciencedirect? | 22:27 |
| kanzure | this is why I suggested writing scripts actually | 22:27 |
| ybit | haven't tried using screen + links, but it still would be alittle slow.. | 22:27 |
| ybit | anyway, i'm wanting to grab visual prosthesis papers now | 22:28 |
| -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] | 22:29 | |
| kanzure | vim trick: " perform a substitute on every other line | 22:30 |
| kanzure | :g/^/ if line('.')%2|s/^/zz / | 22:30 |
| fenn | why not just %s/\(.*\)\n.*/foo/ | 22:31 |
| kanzure | because that replaces the entire file with foo | 22:32 |
| kanzure | anyway I ended up using: g/^/ if line('.')%2|s/\(.\)*// | 22:33 |
| ybit | what is http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/exo | 22:36 |
| kanzure | something about "a force-feedback arm exoskeleton for haptic interaction in virtual environments" | 22:38 |
| * ybit does need an address to send the 1tb to, it should be here by.. ?Friday? | 22:38 | |
| ybit | hrm, maybe it's a pdf.. | 22:38 |
| kanzure | it's a PDF | 22:38 |
| QuantumG | so what's the deal with frame dragging being experimental science now. | 22:40 |
| QuantumG | guess it took so long because nuclear research was taking up all the big science dollars. | 22:40 |
| QuantumG | http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.2271.pdf for example | 22:41 |
| -!- Joseph [n=chatzill@adsl-157-138-244.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] | 22:42 | |
| QuantumG | wonder if they'll do an even bigger scale experiment next, try something new, or just sit on their hands until the theorists can explain their results. | 22:43 |
| -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk | 22:46 | |
| fenn | aether drift theory | 22:48 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@dsl081-249-107.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:02 | |
| kanzure | new batch: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/journals/springerlink/rss/ | 23:02 |
| ybit | what file(s) in skdb deals with finding other shops who might have the machines to manufacture whatever it is you need? | 23:09 |
| ybit | doesn't smari's code do this? | 23:09 |
| ybit | wherever that is | 23:09 |
| fenn | yes | 23:09 |
| fenn | it's in inventory/ | 23:10 |
| ybit | right, saw that | 23:10 |
| fenn | it's all django stuff unfortunately | 23:10 |
| fenn | i still don't really like django | 23:10 |
| ybit | djangit | 23:10 |
| fenn | too much "heavy infrastructure" fwiw | 23:11 |
| ybit | fjarlog? | 23:12 |
| ybit | it doesn't seem usable | 23:13 |
| ybit | it == smari's code | 23:13 |
| ybit | good start though | 23:14 |
| ybit | oh, it is usable | 23:16 |
| ybit | huh | 23:16 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:17 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 23:19 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:19 | |
| -!- genehacker243251 [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 23:19 | |
| genehacker | so you're going to make a thermocycler kanzure? | 23:19 |
| kanzure | ok here we go: | 23:20 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/journals/springerlink/ | 23:20 |
| kanzure | that directory contains links to all feeds for all 2,099 journals published by springerlink | 23:21 |
| ybit | it's not hard to make the thermocycler, i am curious what type of box will be used though. | 23:23 |
| ybit | box/container | 23:23 |
| genehacker | wait the DOD wants a cheap thermocycler? | 23:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | lol | 23:29 |
| genehacker | you can detect anthrax with PCR? | 23:35 |
| genehacker | one can | 23:35 |
| kanzure | $ find * -name '*.rss' | wc -l | 23:37 |
| kanzure | 3919 | 23:37 |
| -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [] | 23:41 | |
| ybit | haven't read yet: Is M0 A Racist Hypothesis? http://www.buildfreedom.com/content/reciprocality/r1/health.html | 23:54 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
