| --- Day changed Tue Sep 22 2009 | ||
| ybit | ln -s /home/heath/builds/opencascade/ros/* /home/heath/builds/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| ybit | $ python setup.py build -NO_GEOM &> error.txt ; pastebinit error.txt | 00:03 |
| ybit | http://pastebin.com/f23e3b851 | 00:03 |
| ybit | how's it going mason-l? | 00:03 |
| mason-l | Good | 00:03 |
| ybit | that's a 2817 line paste o.O | 00:04 |
| ybit | mason-l: what have you been working on recently? | 00:05 |
| mason-l | It also makes no sense to me whatsoever :) | 00:05 |
| mason-l | ybit, Huge amount of thing! | 00:05 |
| mason-l | 'things! | 00:05 |
| mason-l | We've almost finished a working replacement of most of the core functionality provided by uzbl in python! | 00:05 |
| mason-l | Using this http://github.com/mason-larobina/uzbl/blob/experimental/examples/data/uzbl/scripts/uzbl_tabbed.py | 00:06 |
| mason-l | Eeek! | 00:07 |
| mason-l | I mean this: http://github.com/mason-larobina/uzbl/blob/experimental/examples/data/uzbl/scripts/event_manager.py | 00:07 |
| mason-l | And these plugins: http://github.com/mason-larobina/uzbl/tree/experimental/examples/data/uzbl/scripts/plugins/ | 00:08 |
| ybit | very nice, i will have to look @ it later though, because by golly, i'm going to show pythonocc who's boss tonight | 00:13 |
| mason-l | :) | 00:13 |
| katsmeow | been into the DHEA, ybit? | 00:14 |
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| katsmeow | it may be after midnite, but for once it's not raining, so i may go out and do some lite arc welding for the new puter "rack" | 00:15 |
| ybit | quick question... | 00:15 |
| ybit | neighbors.., how do you keep the noise down katsmeow? | 00:15 |
| ybit | because i quit welding earlier than i would have liked today because of banging on the metal with my hammer is loud and i have the garage door open in the shack | 00:16 |
| katsmeow | noise from an arc welder? | 00:16 |
| ybit | ..so fumes can ventilate | 00:16 |
| ybit | noise from banging on the metal with a hammer afterward to get rid of those thingies that i can't recall the name of atm | 00:16 |
| katsmeow | oh, well during "business hours", i don't care how much noise i make | 00:17 |
| ybit | but it isn't business hours, so what are you doing to reduce the noise? :) | 00:17 |
| katsmeow | i do tend to use the bandsaw inside in advance of welding aprt on, so i don't need a body grinder and abrasive disk later outside | 00:17 |
| katsmeow | what noise?? | 00:18 |
| katsmeow | your arc welder is that noisey?? | 00:18 |
| ybit | do you not bang on the metal with a hammer? | 00:18 |
| katsmeow | no, why would i? | 00:18 |
| ybit | hmm | 00:18 |
| fenn | bandsaws are awesome | 00:18 |
| katsmeow | if i wann acleanit, i'll touch it up with a grinder/brush inside | 00:18 |
| ybit | to get rid of the splatter deposits is why.. | 00:19 |
| ybit | oh, that works | 00:19 |
| katsmeow | i don't have much to clamp to outside | 00:20 |
| * ybit needs to grab some metal and start working on an actual project, it might be shitty, but i'm ready to build a bench so i don't have to get on my knees and work with objects lying on the ground | 00:20 | |
| ybit | and i <3 rain, but i'm ready for it to go away for a little bit so i can work with the ac option on alluminum to see the diff in person | 00:21 |
| ybit | unfortunately, the entire week we'll be receiving it | 00:22 |
| katsmeow | benefits to the gnd: it won't collapse onto you, and nothing will fall off it | 00:22 |
| katsmeow | i have several 2x4ft sheets of olde plywood just for that purpose | 00:23 |
| katsmeow | too heavy to pick up onto ahthe table? no prob, just roll it onto the plywood | 00:24 |
| katsmeow | altho i do have steel trusses over a couple tables, and the entire house has open wooden beams | 00:24 |
| ybit | Linking and libraries are not things which are part of standard C | 00:26 |
| ybit | (linking is mentioned but only in the context of what name formats are | 00:26 |
| ybit | guaranteed to work and be unique). | 00:26 |
| ybit | "undefined reference" means that it can't find the function, because you | 00:26 |
| ybit | haven't told the compiler/linker where to look for it. Adding a switch | 00:26 |
| ybit | like -lsndfile may solve it (look at the man pages for details). | 00:26 |
| katsmeow | we got 3 inches here Sat and Sun nite, i imagine you got the same | 00:26 |
| katsmeow | and more each day | 00:26 |
| ybit | from how wet my car seat was today, i'd say it was about 3 inches here as well ;) | 00:27 |
| katsmeow | btw, there's a hell of a squall line coming in from ks and ark tomorrow | 00:27 |
| katsmeow | atm, there's sharp TVS and MESO tags on it in cenreal Ark | 00:30 |
| katsmeow | coming at us at 35mph | 00:31 |
| * ybit is tired unfortunately, stupid 7 hour work days of soldering and occassionaly doing cool stuff.. | 00:34 | |
| ybit | we are going to convert some pickup trucks from the junkyard though and that makes me happy | 00:34 |
| katsmeow | to EV ? | 00:34 |
| ybit | yeah, they are smaller sized and manual transmission | 00:35 |
| ybit | plus the bed is great for holding batteries :) | 00:35 |
| katsmeow | lose the trannies if you can, they are power wasters, you need only 2 gears for most stuff | 00:35 |
| ybit | hmm | 00:36 |
| fenn | how do you connect everything together then? | 00:36 |
| katsmeow | ever laid paws on one after it's been driven a while? too hot, and that heat you'll be making from battery power | 00:36 |
| genehacker | wow we got some weather heading our way too | 00:36 |
| genehacker | oh well | 00:36 |
| katsmeow | fenn, many are direct drive | 00:36 |
| ybit | did anyone ever find Compatibility issues for mechanical system modelling with standard components | 00:37 |
| fenn | cars aren't set up right for hub motors | 00:37 |
| katsmeow | a few have a single stage planetary witha clutch to stop the planetary ring or let it spin | 00:37 |
| katsmeow | yeas, hubs suck | 00:37 |
| katsmeow | i vote for 2 10-15hp motors, each driving their own rear tire, zero gearboxes | 00:38 |
| ybit | gn all | 00:38 |
| katsmeow | but for a truck, get the planetary or some other 2speed dealie | 00:39 |
| fenn | sleep well, earthlings | 00:39 |
| katsmeow | gnite ybit | 00:39 |
| ybit | thanks katsmeow, certainly something to contemplate when i can keep my head off the pillow | 00:39 |
| katsmeow | <curtsey> | 00:39 |
| jonathan__ | "Conductive nichrome probe tips: fabrication, characterization and application as nanotools". Conductive nichrome probe tips have been developed as functionalized nanotools for nanoscale electrical testing and nanowelding. The apex size and shape of the ultra-sharp probes is controllable and reproducible. doi: 10.1088/0957-4484/20/39/395708 | 00:40 |
| katsmeow | by driving the sun gear, and the output coming fromthe planet gears, and the outer ring stopped you can get a gear reduction, turn the ring loose and a spring lockit tothe planets, and you get a straight-thru drive | 00:41 |
| katsmeow | i don't recall who makes it | 00:41 |
| katsmeow | why nichrome? | 00:41 |
| fenn | "nano" | 00:42 |
| katsmeow | i see no connection tween "nano" and "nichrome" | 00:42 |
| katsmeow | better ductility for drawing the tip down when hot? | 00:42 |
| jonathan__ | they are chemically extending the nichrome tip from very thin nichrome wire | 00:43 |
| jonathan__ | and oxidation of the tip is not a problem with nichrome | 00:44 |
| * katsmeow nods | 00:44 | |
| genehacker | no building atomically precise structures with them though, right? | 00:44 |
| jonathan__ | it references welding | 00:45 |
| jonathan__ | nano welding | 00:45 |
| jonathan__ | i assume very good for conductivity measurement | 00:45 |
| fenn | the new nano fits in your pocket | 00:46 |
| jonathan__ | i am curious if bio stuff reacts with nichrome negatively | 00:46 |
| katsmeow | so weld two together for sterio pics | 00:46 |
| genehacker | I got some nichrome wire | 00:46 |
| genehacker | what to give it a try? | 00:46 |
| jonathan__ | "I got some nichrome wire" then you are obvioulsy a terrorist | 00:47 |
| katsmeow | nickel and chrome, prolly unreactive unless it sheds atoms | 00:47 |
| jonathan__ | everyone knows nichrome is used for making bomb fuses and missles | 00:47 |
| genehacker | you probably do too | 00:47 |
| genehacker | I didn't | 00:47 |
| genehacker | in any heating device | 00:47 |
| jonathan__ | sure, plead ignorance when the NSA busts in your door | 00:48 |
| fenn | i prefer to use christmas lights and match heads | 00:48 |
| jonathan__ | I hope you dont have a goatee or a turban | 00:48 |
| katsmeow | remember the scare in the media years ago, capacitors were only used as a bomb triggers, and i gave parts bins fullof them i was ready to go bury | 00:48 |
| fenn | i wrap my beard around my head, that count? | 00:48 |
| genehacker | well considering you do diybio, you might get in trouble too | 00:48 |
| genehacker | well I don't have a goatee or a turban | 00:48 |
| jonathan__ | oh, dont point fingers at me, guilty man | 00:49 |
| jonathan__ | i won't be your patsy | 00:49 |
| jonathan__ | i bet you eat hummus, you're guilty as sin | 00:49 |
| genehacker | hummus? HAHAHAHAHA | 00:49 |
| fenn | mmmm | 00:49 |
| genehacker | nah I avoid it | 00:49 |
| fenn | i gotta find a blue state | 00:50 |
| genehacker | they had it in the cafeteria | 00:50 |
| genehacker | today | 00:50 |
| jonathan__ | oh, you avoid it, clearly for religious reasons, and what religion would that be allah worshipper? | 00:50 |
| genehacker | I opted for a peperoni pizza | 00:50 |
| jonathan__ | clearly a nihilistic terrorist, the worst kind | 00:51 |
| jonathan__ | the chair! the chair! give him the chair! | 00:51 |
| katsmeow | i was going to cast moorish widow treatments ,, and gave that up for 9-11 :-/ | 00:51 |
| fenn | was that your 9-11 resolution? | 00:51 |
| genehacker | oh come on jonathan, you know the CIA will find out about your secret zombie virus project sometime | 00:52 |
| jonathan__ | anyway ahh nichrome might make for a good thermocycler | 00:52 |
| fenn | nichrome is no end of trouble for reprap | 00:52 |
| genehacker | how do you control the heat loss? | 00:52 |
| fenn | just use power resistors that bolt on | 00:52 |
| jonathan__ | I assume cast the wire in heat conductive epoxy, or bake into a ceramic | 00:53 |
| katsmeow | fenn, my9-11 esolution was to not get kileld for building a house with an arabic look, in redneck country | 00:53 |
| genehacker | or why not overclock your computer in cycles to make heat? | 00:53 |
| jonathan__ | the heat needs to be decoupled from the pcr tube thats why | 00:53 |
| jonathan__ | thermo CYCLE not thermo thermo thermo | 00:54 |
| genehacker | yeah | 00:54 |
| jonathan__ | nichrome gets hot very fast | 00:54 |
| jonathan__ | superior to power resistors | 00:55 |
| katsmeow | power resistors ARE nichrome inside | 00:55 |
| jonathan__ | not alwasy | 00:55 |
| katsmeow | what else? | 00:55 |
| jonathan__ | sand | 00:55 |
| katsmeow | :-| | 00:55 |
| jonathan__ | ceramics | 00:56 |
| katsmeow | sand/ceramic packed around the nichrome | 00:56 |
| jonathan__ | i'm sure it depends ont he resistance | 00:56 |
| genehacker | nichrome transfers heat away faster than ceramic | 00:57 |
| katsmeow | yeas, but it's bare metal, hence putting it into an insulating body | 00:57 |
| jonathan__ | i'll pass on putting it into my body thanks | 00:57 |
| genehacker | perhaps we could make a microhotplate thermocycler | 00:58 |
| genehacker | heats up a droplet and lets it cool | 00:59 |
| genehacker | like this one droplet microfluidics device does | 00:59 |
| jonathan__ | exactly | 00:59 |
| jonathan__ | however, must control evaporation too | 00:59 |
| genehacker | put it under oil | 01:00 |
| jonathan__ | yes that is one way | 01:00 |
| genehacker | do they do it that way? | 01:00 |
| jonathan__ | yes | 01:00 |
| genehacker | dang | 01:00 |
| jonathan__ | it's called emulsion or "water-in-oil" | 01:00 |
| genehacker | do you do microfluidics work? | 01:01 |
| jonathan__ | "Nickel-based (Ni-Cr and Ni-Cr-Be) alloys used in dental restorations may be a potential cause for immune-mediated hypersensitivity. Although nickel-based (Ni-Cr and Ni-Cr-Be) alloy prothesis is widely used in orthodontics, its potential biologic hazards, hypersensitivity in particular, are still uncertain as yet. And only a few studies in vivo have considered the biocompatibility. However, several case reports show adve | 01:01 |
| jonathan__ | effects of immunologic alterations, such as urticaria, respiratory disease, nickel contact dermatitis, microscopic hematuria and proteinuria, and even exacerbated to hepatocyte injury and renal injury." | 01:01 |
| jonathan__ | can you believe that crap. and they say diy genetic engineering is dangerous... how about friggin dental fillings??? | 01:01 |
| genehacker | ouch renal injury | 01:01 |
| genehacker | so are you proposing having biogunk on nichrome? | 01:02 |
| jonathan__ | biogunk? | 01:02 |
| genehacker | dna/protein/living thing containing liquid | 01:03 |
| katsmeow | Ni earrings causeme problems, i can tolerate only silver long term | 01:03 |
| jonathan__ | here's another nichrome use - cryogenics: "We present magnetization and magnetoresistance data at liquid-helium and liquid-nitrogen temperatures for wire materials commonly used for instrumentation wiring of specimens, sensors, and heaters in cryogenic probes. The magnetic susceptibilities in Systeme International units at 4.2 K were found to be: Manganin 1.25x10(-2), Nichrome 5.6x10(-3), and phosphor bronze -3.3x10(-5), | 01:03 |
| jonathan__ | indicating that phosphor bronze is the most suitable for high-field applications." | 01:03 |
| genehacker | what's magnetic susceptibility? | 01:04 |
| genehacker | and how does it pertain to magnetic shields? | 01:04 |
| jonathan__ | nichrome wire is used as wire loops because it can be made sterile. | 01:04 |
| katsmeow | anything can be made sterile | 01:04 |
| jonathan__ | uh not | 01:05 |
| katsmeow | autoclave it | 01:05 |
| jonathan__ | lots of things warp & melt | 01:05 |
| genehacker | you can't autoclave plastic | 01:05 |
| jonathan__ | or crack | 01:05 |
| genehacker | or you can | 01:05 |
| genehacker | but that would be bad | 01:05 |
| katsmeow | set it on "gas only" then | 01:05 |
| jonathan__ | I am attempting to do microfluidics yes | 01:06 |
| katsmeow | i've worked on combination autoclaves, one temperature controlled the gas flow for sterilzing plastics going into surgery and patients | 01:06 |
| genehacker | droplet or channel microfluidics? | 01:07 |
| genehacker | and in what material? | 01:07 |
| jonathan__ | however what I find is that the "research" done in the area, is largely not reproducable | 01:07 |
| jonathan__ | http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/tag/microfluidics | 01:08 |
| genehacker | now that's cool | 01:09 |
| jonathan__ | pfff why | 01:09 |
| genehacker | well you did it using pcb board | 01:09 |
| jonathan__ | ok | 01:10 |
| jonathan__ | sure | 01:10 |
| fenn | we are easily amused | 01:11 |
| jonathan__ | how about this one for you brain freaks. "A slim needle-shaped multiwire microelectrode for intracerebral recording." The construction of a needle-shaped multiwire microelectrode is described. It can be made with simple mechanical tools. The presented electrode assembly consists of 12 insulated nichrome wires (core diameter 25 microns) which are embedded in epoxylite resin. | 01:11 |
| genehacker | though I'd really like to make some channel based microfluidics made from pyrex | 01:12 |
| jonathan__ | is that possible? I have never read of glass being used like that | 01:12 |
| genehacker | yup | 01:12 |
| genehacker | it's possible | 01:12 |
| jonathan__ | probably because it is chemically very bad | 01:12 |
| fenn | borosilicate is not necessarily pyrex | 01:12 |
| genehacker | you etch it with DRIE | 01:13 |
| fenn | pyrex has been tempered a certain way | 01:13 |
| genehacker | http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iop.org%2FEJ%2Farticle%2F0960-1317%2F16%2F11%2F006%2Fjmm6_11_006.pdf&ei=Vmu4SpyPNJGasgPuhvUc&usg=AFQjCNFb5Vef9aBPUUIsOSprS_qZty_xVA&sig2=hD_9eqqV7f0_hkyU0U8BPg | 01:14 |
| genehacker | sorry big link | 01:14 |
| jonathan__ | summarize their method? | 01:15 |
| genehacker | they etch pyrex wafers using dry reactive ion etching | 01:16 |
| genehacker | or something like that | 01:16 |
| jonathan__ | and why cant you do it now? | 01:16 |
| genehacker | because I need an inductively coupled plasma reactor | 01:17 |
| genehacker | and some photoresist, and some pyrex wafers | 01:17 |
| fenn | microwave oven | 01:17 |
| fenn | how long does the etching step take? | 01:17 |
| fenn | you can keep a plasma going in a microwave for a minute or so before it overheats | 01:18 |
| genehacker | 2 hours | 01:18 |
| jonathan__ | ah, the plasma step. hm | 01:18 |
| genehacker | in a vacuum I think | 01:18 |
| jonathan__ | probably.. | 01:19 |
| fenn | i bet the mean free path just has to be roughly greater than the channel width | 01:19 |
| fenn | so not "high vacuum" | 01:19 |
| fenn | anyway sounds like overkill | 01:20 |
| fenn | why can't you just use HF? | 01:20 |
| genehacker | it's not as accurate | 01:20 |
| genehacker | +- 10 microns | 01:21 |
| fenn | um.. does it matter? | 01:21 |
| jonathan__ | sleep ttyl | 01:22 |
| genehacker | I want to make a microfactory for making photolabile phosphoramidite nucleosides | 01:23 |
| genehacker | hmm... | 01:23 |
| fenn | find out what wavelength UV you need for making the phosgene | 01:24 |
| fenn | alternatively, find out how to do it without requiring UV | 01:25 |
| fenn | also, borosilicate blocks most UV (i think) | 01:25 |
| fenn | anyway i'm going to attempt to sleep as well | 01:25 |
| genehacker | that's not necessary if you synthesize it from CO and Cl2 | 01:25 |
| genehacker | well have a nice sleep | 01:25 |
| genehacker | I'm probably not sleeping tonight | 01:26 |
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| branstrom | Anyone here care about SENS? You should go vote (comment) on http://3banana.com/m/0JQ/-kDPA_iEv7i | 04:44 |
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| jonathan__ | A low-cost microcontroller-based measurement system for a fractional glow technique | 07:23 |
| jonathan__ | V I Lyamayev 2006 Meas. Sci. Technol. 17 N75-N80 doi: 10.1088/0957-0233/17/12/N01 | 07:23 |
| jonathan__ | schematic included using Atmel microcontroller | 07:23 |
| jonathan__ | Abstract. A microcontroller-based research instrument for performing thermoluminescence (TL) and fractional glow technique (FGT) measurements in the range from room temperatures up to 500 °C has been developed. The key features of this system are the wide range of linear heating and cooling rates (0.005–20 °C s−1), precise temperature regulation, simplicity of construction and low cost. Details of the heater design, | 07:23 |
| jonathan__ | hardware, firmware and software are discussed along with sample results of FGT applied for the MCP-N (LiF:Mg,Cu,P) TL detector. | 07:23 |
| jonathan__ | the schematic is reasonable and it includes all the details. I need to re-read to see if they mentioin where to download the software.. It uses RS232 so they wrote "MSDOS program in C++" to get the data from the hardware. | 07:24 |
| jonathan__ | Just as easy to use a USB microcontroller that mimicks USB->serial and open /dev/tty1 to read the data. | 07:25 |
| jonathan__ | it would be great if DIY people did their homework.... | 07:26 |
| jonathan__ | i.e. library work | 07:26 |
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| jonathan__ | genehacker: "Though you might consider moving the print media | 09:11 |
| jonathan__ | under the inkjet using some sort of linear slider mechanism. This | 09:11 |
| jonathan__ | would allow printing on things thicker than CDs." i | 09:11 |
| jonathan__ | that is not necessary since there are many inkjet printers which print on things thicker than paper | 09:12 |
| jonathan__ | in fact it is a standard (mechanical) procedure to modify an inkjet to run bigger things through the paper trail | 09:12 |
| jonathan__ | The CD was "milled with 800 micron deep wells" .... how to do that? | 09:28 |
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| kanzure | wow even the first instructable sucked | 10:31 |
| drazak | that is the worst idea every | 10:31 |
| jonathan__ | what idea | 10:54 |
| jonathan__ | I find it hard to take SENS seriously if the leader is known to drink a lot of beer | 10:55 |
| kanzure | are you just now learning about aubrey? | 10:56 |
| jonathan__ | no, read about him years ago | 10:56 |
| kanzure | SENS4 was just last week (or something) | 10:56 |
| kanzure | ah okay | 10:56 |
| jonathan__ | had a long email xchange with their lead PI | 10:56 |
| kanzure | cumbers? | 10:56 |
| jonathan__ | I forget | 10:57 |
| kanzure | i met him once. he wasn't drunk, but he sure was british | 10:57 |
| jonathan__ | I suggested they look at diet since okinawa-people live ridiculously long. the response was that calorie restriction was the only way so it wasnt practical to study specific diet. however several articles show specific flavanoids & gene actors in what these people consume. | 10:58 |
| jonathan__ | specifically there is a purple yam which has a very interesting compound. | 10:59 |
| jonathan__ | and others.. | 10:59 |
| jonathan__ | So how to do this to a CDROM? "milled with 800 micron deep wells" | 11:00 |
| kanzure | typical CDR grooves are 2 microns wide. so i'm guessing they probably had a really tiny wire on a milling machine. | 11:01 |
| drazak | CD-ROM, not CDR, CDR useds a dye | 11:02 |
| jonathan__ | somehow I doubt my dremel tool will be able to do it | 11:03 |
| jonathan__ | though I am not sure why bacteria-on-CDROM requires milling the CDROM with microchannels | 11:04 |
| kanzure | for those interested in the first instructables: http://www.instructables.com/tag/type:id/?layout=text&sort=RECENT&count=15&offset=29130 | 11:10 |
| jonathan__ | why do you bother | 11:11 |
| jonathan__ | internet = low quality information | 11:11 |
| kanzure | because i don't know any better | 11:15 |
| kanzure | (seriously) | 11:15 |
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| jonathan__ | print media will always be higher quality because it has paid editors who sift the cruft from the good. Editors make a lot of mistakes as the cathedral however they are better than "the bazaar" | 12:07 |
| jonathan__ | why not go back to old popular mechanics archives, or any of those other tech mags | 12:08 |
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| jonathan__ | "information theory" proves that a huge amount of information that contains some % of badness, is worse than no information at all | 12:09 |
| genehacker2 | Jonathan I want a bioprinter | 12:13 |
| genehacker2 | get rid of the rollers and have it go over a print area and build something up | 12:14 |
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| xp_prg | genehacker2 I want to do this as wel | 12:34 |
| genehacker2 | ok cool | 12:41 |
| genehacker2 | can you reverse engineer printer electronics? | 12:41 |
| genehacker2 | because that would really help us a lot | 12:42 |
| jonathan__ | you dont get it | 12:42 |
| jonathan__ | no need to get rid of the rollers with EPSON | 12:42 |
| genehacker2 | yeah I know | 12:42 |
| jonathan__ | it has a CD tray, and the print head makes a vertical adjustment when software goes to "print to CD" mode | 12:42 |
| genehacker2 | it rolls the cd through does it not? | 12:43 |
| jonathan__ | no need to reverse engineer the electronics | 12:43 |
| jonathan__ | worst case, modify the printer driver | 12:43 |
| jonathan__ | no it does not roll the CD | 12:43 |
| jonathan__ | the CD sits in a special tray | 12:43 |
| jonathan__ | the tray moves | 12:43 |
| genehacker2 | or does it use somesort of CD | 12:43 |
| genehacker2 | that tells me a lot | 12:43 |
| jonathan__ | look on craigs list to buy one | 12:44 |
| genehacker2 | I did | 12:44 |
| jonathan__ | I picked one up for $40 | 12:44 |
| genehacker2 | I have an epson can't print on cds though | 12:44 |
| jonathan__ | near new | 12:44 |
| genehacker2 | very new | 12:44 |
| jonathan__ | you must get one that has print on CD | 12:44 |
| genehacker2 | so how does it move the tray? | 12:44 |
| jonathan__ | otherwise you will have these problems with vertical displacement of the ink head | 12:44 |
| genehacker2 | how does it move the tray? | 12:45 |
| genehacker2 | a linear actuator? | 12:45 |
| jonathan__ | i'll test it right now if you suggest how to do the "milled with 800 micron deep wells" | 12:45 |
| genehacker2 | so does a motor move the cd in a linear manner? | 12:46 |
| jonathan__ | yes the tray moves | 12:47 |
| genehacker2 | by itself? | 12:47 |
| jonathan__ | however printing is not limited to only the CD | 12:47 |
| genehacker2 | so if the tray could be removed it could be turned into a flat bed printer? | 12:48 |
| jonathan__ | you go to "print to CD" mode, and then you send any arbitrary image.. so hypothetically you can print to the entire 8.5" wide region, not just CD area | 12:48 |
| jonathan__ | yes, that is what I'm saying | 12:48 |
| genehacker2 | wow | 12:48 |
| jonathan__ | the vertical displacement activated by "print to CD" is the big bonus | 12:48 |
| jonathan__ | otherwise you have to design all that yourself blah blah | 12:49 |
| jonathan__ | or modify rollers blah blah | 12:49 |
| genehacker2 | it levels to the surface? | 12:49 |
| jonathan__ | it moves up to allow bigger object to pass thru | 12:49 |
| jonathan__ | some guys have been able to pass 1/32" PCB thru. but 1/16" PCB is too thick | 12:50 |
| genehacker2 | so what we want to do is something like this: | 12:50 |
| genehacker2 | http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/3dprint.htm | 12:50 |
| jonathan__ | http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/c84-st.htm | 12:51 |
| genehacker2 | except instead of powder we're printing in hydrogel curing stuff or whatever bioprinters print into | 12:51 |
| genehacker2 | is that the same type of printer | 12:52 |
| jonathan__ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHpjzOhzxA go to about 2:00 | 12:52 |
| genehacker2 | looks like it rolled it out to me | 12:54 |
| genehacker2 | it's not moving a tray | 12:54 |
| genehacker2 | it's moving a board | 12:54 |
| jonathan__ | those dont use a CD printer so they are more modified | 12:54 |
| jonathan__ | this one uses CD printer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9W6mWtA8YM | 12:55 |
| jonathan__ | the tray goes crazy at the start, as the printer is aligning the tray into position. then the tray moves for each print line | 12:56 |
| genehacker2 | ok | 12:56 |
| genehacker2 | it's aligning it, that's something we can use | 12:56 |
| jonathan__ | however the printable area is actually the entire width of the printer | 12:56 |
| genehacker2 | so it might not be incredible hard to make it such that the printer moves over the thing being printed on | 12:57 |
| jonathan__ | instructions: http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/tutorial.html | 12:57 |
| genehacker2 | the thing is | 13:00 |
| genehacker2 | I'd like to build something up layer by layer | 13:00 |
| genehacker2 | many layers higher than the cd tray | 13:00 |
| jonathan__ | a couple papers I read, they studied the droplet distribution of EPSON | 13:03 |
| jonathan__ | it is near vertical | 13:03 |
| jonathan__ | so displacement from the page does not matter. | 13:03 |
| jonathan__ | page = print surface | 13:03 |
| genehacker2 | yeah | 13:03 |
| jonathan__ | it only matters since the head shouldn't run into it | 13:03 |
| genehacker2 | so how do we turn a printer like that into a 3d printer? | 13:04 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: kanzure * r 0cdd724 /doc/architecture: some notes on the current and future architecture of skdb | 13:04 |
| jonathan__ | we? or you | 13:05 |
| genehacker2 | I guess me | 13:06 |
| kanzure | umbrellas should have directional indicators and provide tactile feedback when you change the orientation of the umbrella and the umbrella isn't at the optimal angle for water protection | 13:07 |
| jonathan__ | well you want to move the printer linearly. I think thats crazy | 13:08 |
| genehacker2 | it can be done | 13:08 |
| kanzure | what the fuck | 13:08 |
| kanzure | http://harkopen.com/news/makerbeam-announces-kickstarter-invite-contest-open-source-projects | 13:08 |
| kanzure | makerbeam has raised $5,000 already? | 13:08 |
| kanzure | they have nothing though.. | 13:08 |
| genehacker2 | http://homemade3dprinter.blogspot.com/ | 13:09 |
| genehacker2 | kanzure what about wind? you'd have to make the umbrella compensate for wind | 13:09 |
| kanzure | so what? this isn't rocket science | 13:10 |
| kanzure | get a microcontroller and some wind detection system going | 13:10 |
| jonathan__ | you should see the full-body umbrellas they sell in hong kong. funny | 13:10 |
| kanzure | maybe that's what i will use | 13:11 |
| genehacker2 | wonder how the original bioprinter worked | 13:11 |
| kanzure | one idea is to use lots of frills on the side of the umbrella and shine a laser on them | 13:11 |
| kanzure | and then get the deflection angle | 13:11 |
| kanzure | to determine in which way they are blowing | 13:11 |
| kanzure | (assume a stationary person) | 13:11 |
| jonathan__ | simplify, simplify, simplify. just get a jumbo lawn garbage bag, cut a hole in the top, poke your head thru the hole, and put it over your body. done | 13:12 |
| jonathan__ | piezo works better as bend sensor | 13:12 |
| jonathan__ | kids always want to use lazerz for some reason | 13:12 |
| kanzure | how did these people get $5k from 38 people? | 13:12 |
| jonathan__ | I KNOW1!@! WE USE LAzERZ! | 13:13 |
| kanzure | diodes aren't that impressive, jonathan__ | 13:13 |
| kanzure | besides my problem was specifically to determine the angle of the rain | 13:13 |
| kanzure | and then compensate an umbrella | 13:13 |
| kanzure | it's a way to test dynamic control | 13:14 |
| kanzure | if the goal is to not get wet, don't be there | 13:14 |
| genehacker2 | maybe you could add dynamically controlled fins to it so it keeps pointed into the wind | 13:15 |
| jonathan__ | so how do I mill a CDROM with micron resolution eh? | 13:15 |
| jonathan__ | that's the only problem of the day | 13:15 |
| genehacker2 | lasers probably | 13:15 |
| jonathan__ | I KNOW1!@! WE USE LAzERZ! | 13:15 |
| genehacker2 | no really | 13:16 |
| genehacker2 | how much are you removing anyway? | 13:16 |
| genehacker2 | if you're removing a lot then a laser is not recommendalb | 13:16 |
| genehacker2 | e | 13:16 |
| jonathan__ | "milled with 800 micron deep wells" with wells apparently 2" wide | 13:16 |
| genehacker2 | talk to a machinist | 13:17 |
| genehacker2 | OH I know hot embossing | 13:17 |
| genehacker2 | no | 13:17 |
| jonathan__ | HI MACHINIST!@!1 YOU GOT LAzERZ!?? | 13:18 |
| xp_prg | genehacker2 I have access to lasers at the tech shop | 13:18 |
| jonathan__ | does the reflective surface of the CD affect that at all? | 13:19 |
| genehacker2 | jonathan sutton building bottom floor has what you need | 13:19 |
| genehacker2 | probably not accurate to 800 microns | 13:19 |
| genehacker2 | make sure to test that the cd doesn't have any chlorine in it | 13:20 |
| jonathan__ | well. I want to do it in my garage lab. | 13:20 |
| genehacker2 | oh | 13:20 |
| genehacker2 | try drilling a hole | 13:21 |
| jonathan__ | can it be etched? | 13:21 |
| genehacker2 | no | 13:21 |
| genehacker2 | you might try hot embossing it | 13:22 |
| genehacker2 | don't know if you could hot emboss something 800 microns deep | 13:22 |
| jonathan__ | alternatively, I could add a positive layer that is 800 microns high | 13:22 |
| jonathan__ | as long as the layer binds to the surface and is biocompatible | 13:24 |
| genehacker2 | well what do you want to do with that? | 13:27 |
| genehacker2 | are you trying to reproduce the results or make a smiley face out of cells? | 13:28 |
| jonathan__ | certainly smiley face is a good hello world. however the larger problem is synthetic circuit characterization | 13:29 |
| genehacker2 | oh | 13:30 |
| genehacker2 | that makes sense | 13:30 |
| genehacker2 | does it have to be 800 microns deep? | 13:30 |
| jonathan__ | characterization of parts / circuits is the bottleneck in the process of making bigger circuits | 13:30 |
| drazak | no | 13:30 |
| drazak | you got hung up on that depth | 13:30 |
| genehacker2 | I'd really like to make a bioprinter | 13:31 |
| jonathan__ | i dont know why he chose 800um, or even why he needs wells at all | 13:31 |
| xp_prg | genehacker2 http://singularityhub.com/2009/06/08/growing-organs-in-the-lab/ | 13:31 |
| genehacker2 | we could print bacon | 13:31 |
| genehacker2 | it's thin | 13:31 |
| xp_prg | the bottom video shows an actual inkjet printer doing this | 13:31 |
| genehacker2 | yeah cool | 13:31 |
| genehacker2 | could you find how they made it like that? | 13:31 |
| xp_prg | don't know | 13:32 |
| genehacker2 | I never could find the paper on how they made it make stuff | 13:33 |
| jonathan__ | yuck, that video is disgusting | 13:34 |
| kanzure | nltk is pretty neat | 13:34 |
| jonathan__ | genehacker2: this is the paper you want to look at, Inkjet printing for high-throughput cell patterning doi:10.1016/j.biomaterials.2003.10.052 | 14:02 |
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| kanzure | maybe i'll just use spud | 14:17 |
| * kanzure goes to a meeting | 14:17 | |
| superkuh | Did anyone grab the full text of the inkjet cell printing paper? I would appreciate a copy if possible. (superkuh@gmail.com) | 14:42 |
| drazak | of course not | 14:49 |
| jonathan__ | yes | 15:05 |
| jonathan__ | you know what boggles my mind. found 2 papers for bioinstrumentation using microcontrollers... and one uses an 80C31 and the other uses 8051. that's 1979 chip technology folks. yes that old. | 15:07 |
| xp_prg | superkuh where do you live? | 15:07 |
| jonathan__ | I have no idea why on earth anyone would use an 8051 in the entire past decade | 15:07 |
| xp_prg | anyone near Palo Alto? | 15:07 |
| superkuh | I am not. Western Wisconsin, USA. | 15:08 |
| xp_prg | can you move out here so we can work togehter? | 15:10 |
| fenn | say.. what's going on here? | 15:12 |
| fenn | you can't steal superkuh! | 15:12 |
| xp_prg | I can and will | 15:14 |
| jonathan__ | btw this good paper explains HP and Cannon inkjet printing for patterns . Characterization of Patterned Self-Assembled Monolayers | 15:20 |
| jonathan__ | and Protein Arrays Generated by the Ink-Jet Method | 15:20 |
| jonathan__ | humorously it says "Patterns were designed using Microsoft PowerPoint software" | 15:23 |
| xp_prg | what is a good diybio cell to use to test printing cells with an inkjet printer? | 15:33 |
| xp_prg | and how can you make them stick together? | 15:34 |
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| jonathan__ | many types of microbes, chemicals, proteins have been "printed" | 15:39 |
| jonathan__ | what "stick together" ? | 15:40 |
| xp_prg | fecal matter? | 15:41 |
| jonathan__ | the only consideration is the size of the microbe and the size of the nozzle. if nozzle x 10 >= microbe size then def. should be ok | 15:51 |
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| drazak | so uhm | 15:55 |
| drazak | do you guys actually realize how hard cell culture is? | 15:55 |
| genehacker | cell culture of what? | 15:56 |
| genehacker | human cells? | 15:56 |
| drazak | whatever cells they're going to use | 15:56 |
| drazak | bacteria is easy, mammal cells are hard | 15:56 |
| genehacker | from the way you ask sounds hards | 15:56 |
| genehacker | aren't mammalian cells pressure sensitive? | 15:57 |
| drazak | eh | 15:57 |
| drazak | not that bad | 15:57 |
| genehacker | really? | 15:57 |
| drazak | we centrifuge the hell out of them | 15:57 |
| drazak | 5000x g for 5 minutes | 15:57 |
| drazak | 3500x g for more sensitive cells | 15:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should open up a door | 15:58 |
| genehacker | well I don't think we can do anything other than bacteria at the moment | 15:58 |
| kanzure | really? mold grows pretty well on my bread | 15:59 |
| genehacker | unless you got an easy way to culture mammalian cells | 15:59 |
| kanzure | did anyone upload the paper to adl? | 15:59 |
| genehacker | though some group of bioartists were able to extract bovine cells from meat and get them to grow | 15:59 |
| drazak | getting them to grow is easy | 16:00 |
| drazak | keeping them uncontaminated is hard | 16:00 |
| drazak | immortalizing them is hard | 16:00 |
| genehacker | they did it in a homemade positive pressure chamber | 16:01 |
| genehacker | so I'm wondering, can you ever deimmortalize mammalian cells? | 16:03 |
| jonathan__ | I am not considering mammalian cells at all. | 16:04 |
| jonathan__ | that is a huge level of complexity (and safety) that is not worth it. | 16:05 |
| genehacker | I'd like to be able to someday | 16:05 |
| genehacker | but not today | 16:05 |
| drazak | jonathan__: safety isn't too much of an issue | 16:06 |
| jonathan__ | even the experts find it hard to keep those cells alive.. | 16:06 |
| drazak | genehacker: why would you deimmortalize cells? | 16:07 |
| genehacker | so you can implant them in people and they have less of a chance of becoming cancerous | 16:07 |
| jonathan__ | although there have been some interesting projects on measuring impedance for differentiating organ cell types that are interesting. | 16:08 |
| drazak | genehacker: oh, well, cellless systems are being developed | 16:10 |
| genehacker | how does that work? | 16:11 |
| drazak | growth factors | 16:11 |
| genehacker | anyway I think diybio really needs to focus on making useful chemicals | 16:11 |
| drazak | VEGF is as good as MSC injections | 16:11 |
| genehacker | MSC= | 16:12 |
| drazak | mesenchymal stem cells | 16:14 |
| genehacker | we really need a way to make our own taq polymerase and restriction enzymes | 16:15 |
| drazak | did you read the latest post | 16:15 |
| drazak | seems like a good idea | 16:15 |
| jonathan__ | taq was already discussed, many times | 16:15 |
| genehacker | which one? | 16:15 |
| genehacker | oh on restriction enzymes? | 16:16 |
| genehacker | yeah | 16:16 |
| drazak | all we need are the bugs | 16:19 |
| drazak | unless people want to keep pussyfooting | 16:30 |
| fenn | diy fembot: http://www.youtube.com/v/78krbfy9hh0 | 16:33 |
| fenn | the greatest motivation came after watching “Chobits.” | 16:36 |
| genehacker | so we just need the bugs? | 16:37 |
| drazak | pretty much | 16:38 |
| genehacker | so what bugs do we need? | 16:38 |
| genehacker | modified e.coli variants? | 16:38 |
| drazak | an ec construct] | 16:42 |
| jonathan__ | "who" needs the bugs. | 16:51 |
| jonathan__ | if someone wants to act as a maintainer and purifier, great | 16:52 |
| jonathan__ | otherwise, everyone needs them to do their own purifications | 16:53 |
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| drazak | yup | 17:14 |
| drazak | but if one persone gets them and grows them | 17:14 |
| drazak | then they can send some to other people | 17:15 |
| drazak | or send the plasmid | 17:15 |
| drazak | probably the plasmid | 17:18 |
| drazak | you can dry it into water | 17:18 |
| drazak | er, paper | 17:21 |
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| jonathan__ | yes, definitely go for it | 17:26 |
| jonathan__ | best would be to find someone with access to a simple academic lab like a high school, and keep everything there. pretty simple for a motivated person | 17:28 |
| jonathan__ | could be done at home, but better to do it outside | 17:28 |
| drazak | uhmmm | 17:30 |
| drazak | highschool labs are lulz | 17:30 |
| drazak | as in | 17:30 |
| jonathan__ | uh oh, new yorker article.. | 17:30 |
| drazak | they suck | 17:30 |
| jonathan__ | exactly, they suck | 17:30 |
| jonathan__ | that is the point | 17:30 |
| drazak | they have no shakers | 17:30 |
| jonathan__ | they suck so no one will bother the maintainer about what they are / arent doing | 17:30 |
| jonathan__ | security from beauracracy thru obscurity | 17:32 |
| * drazak eyerolls | 17:32 | |
| genehacker | plasmid paper? | 17:33 |
| genehacker | could you send it through the mail? | 17:33 |
| jonathan__ | it's far better to have someone just quietly sending the stuff out from some unsophisticated lab, than to have some "mad sci on youtube" sending the stuff out from the kitchen | 17:34 |
| genehacker | good point | 17:35 |
| jonathan__ | from patent standpoint as well as I assume it's a grey area to distribute Big Biotech's product around | 17:35 |
| genehacker | we didn't violate your patent, that bacteria did | 17:37 |
| jonathan__ | tell it to the lawyers | 17:38 |
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| genehacker | I thought gene patents were going moot | 17:40 |
| jonathan__ | kind of like mp3 and DMCA ? | 17:40 |
| drazak | genehacker: yup | 17:41 |
| drazak | genehacker: just let some water with plasmids in it dry on some paper, and boom, plasmid water | 17:41 |
| drazak | it's how academics save money on biohazard shipping | 17:42 |
| drazak | er | 17:42 |
| drazak | plasmid paper | 17:42 |
| drazak | send it through the mail, whatever | 17:43 |
| genehacker | don't you have to contain it in a plastic baggie? | 17:43 |
| drazak | nah, wrap in saran wrap | 17:45 |
| genehacker | just regular paper? | 17:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's like going to a hard rock music event, and seeing people periodically sucking on their collar or a napkin: it's been soaked in their favorite drug-water mix and dried prior to the event | 17:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's like the stat that 90% of usa dollars are taineted with drugs, so why not *really* soak them, and sell $1 bills for $100, or whatever the price is | 17:48 |
| katsmeow-afk | i'm not recommending that however, because it's prolly illegal | 17:49 |
| superkuh | Because no one wants to suck on dirty paper currency? | 17:49 |
| genehacker | hmmm... plasmid money | 17:49 |
| katsmeow-afk | i dunno, they stick themselves with dirty needles <shrug> | 17:49 |
| fenn | you could wash them first.. | 17:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | lol | 17:50 |
| fenn | genehacker: that rodney brooks video was terrible | 17:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | "i washed my heroin money, and now ic annot get a buzz off it, i want my money back!" | 17:50 |
| genehacker | you finally got around to watching it? | 17:50 |
| genehacker | how so? | 17:50 |
| fenn | it was way too vague | 17:51 |
| fenn | 'find an exponential and hop on it!' | 17:51 |
| genehacker | ok | 17:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | "hey Bubba, why do the fish act like they are hallucinating?" | 17:51 |
| fenn | 'start a company that uses robots!' | 17:51 |
| kanzure | nathan cravens got all excited today about visual object recognition algorithms. 'omg i just created ai bryan!!!' | 18:08 |
| jonathan__ | AND LAzERS!@ | 18:08 |
| kanzure | the new yorker article wasn't all too interesting | 18:08 |
| kanzure | no, no lasers! bad engineer | 18:08 |
| jonathan__ | OH!1!!@! | 18:09 |
| kanzure | jonathan__: btw there were a lot of other sites on the web that did spectrophotometers from a CD | 18:09 |
| kanzure | you want to give me a ride home? | 18:09 |
| kanzure | i'm currently across the street | 18:09 |
| jonathan__ | yeah but this is a good paper actually | 18:09 |
| kanzure | not saying it's bad | 18:09 |
| jonathan__ | none of this "generic web blah instructable" stuff | 18:09 |
| kanzure | haven't read it. | 18:09 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:09 |
| jonathan__ | it has... equations! in it | 18:09 |
| kanzure | isn't that illegal? | 18:10 |
| jonathan__ | yes... ah I had to check. See this is a Biochemistry paper, not a Biology paper | 18:10 |
| jonathan__ | that explains it... again | 18:11 |
| jonathan__ | I spidered that journal, havent gone thru all the papers yet tho | 18:11 |
| drazak | what journal? | 18:13 |
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| jonathan__ | "BIOCHEMISTRY AND MOLECULAR BIOLOGY EDUCATION " just for fun | 18:14 |
| kanzure | nevermind, bus came | 18:14 |
| kanzure | why doesn't capmetro have wifi? | 18:14 |
| kanzure | jonathan__: you should consider uploading it to adl. | 18:14 |
| kanzure | we've been using it as a paper dump for a while now | 18:15 |
| jonathan__ | what | 18:15 |
| jonathan__ | oh, this one is open access, sooo | 18:15 |
| kanzure | great | 18:15 |
| kanzure | bah connectivity | 18:15 |
| jonathan__ | or u mean the entire journal? | 18:15 |
| kanzure | yes please | 18:15 |
| jonathan__ | oh | 18:15 |
| jonathan__ | well get me an account first | 18:15 |
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| ybit | katsmeow-afk: going to keep the transmission, by keeping the transmission, we can get the vehicle up to 45mph and possibly more.. the vehicles: ~1999 ford ranger, ~1999 jeep wrangler, and a 2001 daewoo lenos | 18:33 |
| ybit | ranger: ~4,300lbs., wrangler: ~3040lbs, lenos: ~2440lbs (with gas engines and nothing stripped) | 18:35 |
| ybit | the wrangler and lenos are mine to keep, the ranger is the owner's for training me :) | 18:36 |
| drazak | to drive? | 18:36 |
| ybit | um, yeah :P | 18:36 |
| ybit | we have about 5 wranglers and 5 rangers, and one daewoo lenos which had a bad engine and a few minor problems | 18:38 |
| drazak | great, cars for the lab in austin | 18:39 |
| * drazak runs | 18:39 | |
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| fenn | definitely the lanos | 18:59 |
| fenn | i bet you can strip it down quite a bit before adding batteries | 19:00 |
| fenn | it might be worth investigating small 4 stroke engines (diesel?) to act as a generator, if you can't afford a crapload of batteries | 19:01 |
| fenn | you only need like 30 hp continuous to go highway speeds | 19:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | ybit is in terribly hilly country tho | 19:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | there's hills up there that will kill a battery pack and never reach the top | 19:04 |
| ybit | an ev lanos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2rm2xFeufE | 19:04 |
| ybit | minus the trip to work, i only have to deal with very small hills on occasion.. trip to work, er.. big hills :P | 19:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | out of a group 27 battery, you can figure max one hp hr | 19:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | in my experience, and that's really hard on the battyer | 19:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | ybit, junkyard tend to accumulate lots of riding and push mowers, praps a riding mower engine would make a decent generator-driver | 19:10 |
| fenn | turbo lawnmower engine | 19:10 |
| fenn | small engines are so much easier to work on | 19:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | i was thinking the 2 cylinder sorts, which are on commercial units, not so sure about single piston efficency | 19:11 |
| drazak | just hook it up to an alternator and boom! | 19:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, thing is, a single piston is one BANG of a torque impulse for 1/4 of one revolution, every 2 revolutions | 19:14 |
| ybit | better vid of the ev lanos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-75qkJij6g | 19:19 |
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| fenn | sure i guess | 19:34 |
| jonathan__ | they are hot | 19:34 |
| fenn | don't use your tongue, use a sponge instead | 19:34 |
| jonathan__ | not for internal use | 19:34 |
| jonathan__ | may cause chaffing | 19:34 |
| jonathan__ | never buy radio shack soldering tools | 19:34 |
| jonathan__ | or accessories | 19:34 |
| ybit | drazak: what are you wanting to know? | 19:36 |
| ybit | i use cheap soldering irons at work, they do the job, 15 watt soldering irons are fine for just about most things | 19:37 |
| ybit | 15 or 30* | 19:38 |
| drazak | yeah, I know, I want something better :P | 19:38 |
| jonathan__ | using a good one is like driving a luxury car, it's hard to go back to the old clunker | 19:38 |
| kanzure | are the cold touch things worth their salt? | 19:38 |
| jonathan__ | get a digital weller otherwise get analog weller | 19:38 |
| jonathan__ | cold touch? | 19:39 |
| drazak | http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WLC100-Soldering-Hobbyist-Yourselfer/dp/B000AS28UC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1253664883&sr=8-1 | 19:39 |
| drazak | pretty much what I was going to get | 19:39 |
| drazak | kanzure: no | 19:39 |
| drazak | kanzure: they suck | 19:39 |
| jonathan__ | amazon is best price I think, I recently got a weller thru them after checking everywhere | 19:40 |
| drazak | yeah | 19:40 |
| jonathan__ | I wouldnt go for WLC | 19:40 |
| jonathan__ | go for PES51 | 19:40 |
| ybit | maybe, but my expensive workstation is just that expensive, it has a few bells/whistles but nothing to spend the big money on. the one thing i like better than the ones i use at work: the smoke absorber | 19:40 |
| drazak | I did a perusal though google shopping | 19:40 |
| drazak | smoke absorber? | 19:40 |
| ybit | drazak: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HDG0AO/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000I30QBW&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=135A4RZD689K44TD70K5 | 19:41 |
| drazak | can you get other tips for the PES51? | 19:41 |
| jonathan__ | you want the blue weller units not the red one | 19:41 |
| jonathan__ | yes, many tips | 19:41 |
| ybit | when you are soldering you have fumes to deal with, unfortunately until my tips come in, i'll be sniffing fumes @ work | 19:41 |
| jonathan__ | removable | 19:41 |
| drazak | nah, I don't need hot air rework | 19:41 |
| jonathan__ | also the tool detaches & is replaceable | 19:41 |
| ybit | you'll need plenty of tips, that was my mistake and a solder sucker | 19:42 |
| drazak | jonathan__: it does on the WLC too | 19:42 |
| drazak | ybit: yeah I know | 19:42 |
| drazak | ybit: I'm a half decent solderer already, just have crappy irons | 19:42 |
| ybit | solder wick is nice too when working with smd components | 19:42 |
| jonathan__ | uh | 19:42 |
| drazak | yeah | 19:42 |
| drazak | no smd stuff for me though | 19:42 |
| drazak | it's good for everything :P | 19:42 |
| jonathan__ | the red one is only $10 cheaper, so go pro | 19:43 |
| drazak | yeah | 19:43 |
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| jonathan__ | for automotive stuff, get the cheapie $19.99 ones or whatever... for bench work, go for the blue | 19:43 |
| ybit | that's not bad advice | 19:43 |
| drazak | definitely | 19:44 |
| drazak | jonathan__: I'm building some high class amps, so I wanted a better soldering iron | 19:44 |
| jonathan__ | well for automotive usually need a soldering gun, not iron.. much higher watts for bigger stuff | 19:44 |
| drazak | jonathan__: aka a tube amp and a headphone amp | 19:44 |
| drazak | yeah | 19:44 |
| jonathan__ | hm | 19:45 |
| drazak | it's more than 10 bucks more | 19:45 |
| drazak | need to buy the WES51 station kit thing | 19:45 |
| drazak | not just the PES51 | 19:45 |
| drazak | the PES51 is just the power supply | 19:45 |
| jonathan__ | yeah right | 19:45 |
| jonathan__ | well, up to you | 19:46 |
| drazak | yeah | 19:46 |
| * katsmeow-afk sells drazak all her vac tubes, without him even knowing it | 19:46 | |
| jonathan__ | if you're doing any ICs at all, you want the blue | 19:46 |
| drazak | I'm gonna see if my dad will go half in on it | 19:46 |
| jonathan__ | better temp control will help | 19:46 |
| drazak | yeah, but I"m putting in dips for the OPAMPS | 19:46 |
| jonathan__ | might help with tube sockets as well | 19:46 |
| jonathan__ | dips = ICs | 19:47 |
| drazak | no no | 19:47 |
| drazak | what I mean is the holder things | 19:47 |
| * drazak can never remember what they're called | 19:47 | |
| jonathan__ | sockets | 19:47 |
| drazak | aye | 19:48 |
| drazak | dip sockets for the opamps | 19:48 |
| drazak | I need to part out the amp(s) at some point | 19:48 |
| jonathan__ | thats more than "for the hobbyist" already. hobbyist is like, solder resistor to led. | 19:48 |
| jonathan__ | tube amp is kind of pointless if it's playing mp3s. vinyl, ok.. | 19:49 |
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| kanzure | anyone have experience with "sml" or "polyml" ? | 19:50 |
| drazak | jonathan__: we don't play mp3's on the sterio at our house :) | 19:50 |
| jonathan__ | you could get by with $12.99 version. I did for a long time. should have upgraded tho, life would have been much happier | 19:50 |
| drazak | jonathan__: and 1/2 my music is 96bit flac from vinyl | 19:50 |
| kanzure | do they still play mp3s over there in mbb from the server? | 19:50 |
| jonathan__ | they have 2 stereos going at once sometimes.. one in each lab | 19:51 |
| kanzure | different songs? | 19:51 |
| jonathan__ | i think people have playlists or something, it's different | 19:51 |
| kanzure | huh | 19:51 |
| jonathan__ | lots of times they play NPR which is lame... damn propaganda | 19:51 |
| kanzure | well i guess you don't have much else to do while pipetting for hours after hour | 19:51 |
| drazak | I usually bring my mp3 player to the lab :P | 19:51 |
| kanzure | drazak: if you get a song you hate you have to deglove | 19:51 |
| jonathan__ | lab techs dont think much, its true | 19:52 |
| jonathan__ | manual labor.. | 19:52 |
| kanzure | but it's SCIENCE | 19:52 |
| drazak | kanzure: I have no songs I hate | 19:52 |
| kanzure | ha ha ha | 19:52 |
| drazak | on my mp3 player that is | 19:52 |
| jonathan__ | the people in the middle, sometimes wear ear plugs | 19:52 |
| drazak | 3/4's of them are in flac... | 19:52 |
| kanzure | jonathan__: is michael wittig still around? | 19:52 |
| jonathan__ | sometimes it gets on a depressing playlist and I gotta wonder who's in there working... all this down beat music, ha | 19:53 |
| kanzure | "oh man my life is so depressing. time to pipette" | 19:53 |
| jonathan__ | ummmm I dunno, I dont talk to everyone there | 19:53 |
| kanzure | "perfect pipetting music" | 19:53 |
| kanzure | ah, well, he's in the middle, or was | 19:53 |
| drazak | :P | 19:53 |
| drazak | my lab is boring | 19:54 |
| jonathan__ | oh, people come and go from the desk area all the time, it's crazy | 19:54 |
| jonathan__ | the next lab space over, what is it, computational or soemthing, nothing but borrring cubicles, ha | 19:54 |
| drazak | one person just stares while he pippets, the other listens to music in greek, and the lab bitch listens to vietnamese music | 19:54 |
| drazak | or taiwanese or something | 19:54 |
| jonathan__ | 0th generation has poor taste in music, it is true | 19:54 |
| ybit | 19:52 < drazak> 3/4's of them are in flac... | 19:55 |
| drazak | ybit: I have a rio karma, it plays music in flac on my "mp3 player" | 19:55 |
| ybit | doesn't matter unless you have the nice earphones | 19:55 |
| genehacker2 | your lack or robots disturbs me | 19:55 |
| drazak | ybit: my senn 515's are decent | 19:55 |
| jonathan__ | flac doesnt matter much since most recordings have so much compression during mixing | 19:55 |
| drazak | jonathan__: from vinyl | 19:56 |
| drazak | jonathan__: all my flac= from vinyl | 19:56 |
| jonathan__ | depends who mixed it, whether vinyl or not | 19:56 |
| drazak | and most of it is before they started doing that lame shit | 19:56 |
| drazak | The Who vinyl | 19:56 |
| jonathan__ | thats why music from 60s sounds so much better | 19:56 |
| drazak | Floyd Vinyl | 19:56 |
| drazak | Steely Dan Vinyl | 19:56 |
| drazak | etcv | 19:56 |
| jonathan__ | ha, what are you doing dropping acid at your lab bench or what | 19:56 |
| drazak | nah | 19:57 |
| jonathan__ | "yeah wow it's like wood stock 2010 man, look at these cells gloooowwwwww" | 19:57 |
| drazak | :P | 19:57 |
| jonathan__ | "no man it's like, they just want to be loved, thats what florescence is all about man, looovveeee" | 19:58 |
| jonathan__ | ha | 19:58 |
| jonathan__ | it's true you know. i read that in steven hawking's book. | 19:59 |
| drazak | hah | 19:59 |
| drazak | I need to get the receipt for my headphoens and send them in | 19:59 |
| drazak | they have a crack in the plastic | 19:59 |
| drazak | and I have a year left on my warranty | 19:59 |
| ybit | http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/3662000373/in/pool-822445@N25 http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/3661999697/in/pool-822445@N25 | 20:05 |
| ybit | http://www.flickr.com/photos/electric-future/3503925622/in/pool-822445@N25 | 20:06 |
| ybit | all EVs, after seeing this, i almost just want to build my own car | 20:06 |
| ybit | plenty of scrap metal to do this | 20:06 |
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| kanzure | libcml-smlnj seems to not contain ascii files | 20:08 |
| genehacker | I wonder | 20:08 |
| genehacker | could we make a living cellular automata | 20:08 |
| kanzure | /usr/lib/smlnj/lib/cml/.cm/x86-unix/cml.cm is totally NOT ascii | 20:08 |
| genehacker | that glows patterns | 20:08 |
| ybit | http://www.centralfloridaf-bodies.com/Toys for Tots-Belleview 2005.htm http://www.centralfloridaf-bodies.com/Toys for Tots-Belleview 2005.htm | 20:08 |
| ybit | home-built | 20:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | you wanna build from scratch? didja look into the mountains or paperwork the state will bury you under? | 20:09 |
| * katsmeow-afk dcc's her Geo Metro to ybit, after she yanks it's engine | 20:10 | |
| drazak | oh man I totally forgot how much these headphones suck | 20:10 |
| drazak | they just take all the mids out of it | 20:10 |
| drazak | and muddy the highs and lows | 20:10 |
| * drazak pukes | 20:10 | |
| katsmeow-afk | put a motor on each front half-shaft, fillit's backend with batteries, and you're all set | 20:10 |
| genehacker | wow you are a music freak drazak | 20:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | guy down the street wants $900 for a 65 Mustang, original running gear, sounds great | 20:11 |
| drazak | genehacker: dude, I grew up with the master general of music freaks, my dad | 20:12 |
| drazak | genehacker: I grew up listening to a golden tube tube amp, and have a fischer x100 in my room | 20:12 |
| genehacker | my dad is a music freak | 20:12 |
| genehacker | he purchased special speakers | 20:12 |
| ybit | haven't seen this before: http://www.milnermotors.com/aircar.htm | 20:12 |
| drazak | my dad spent 20 grand on speakers at once | 20:13 |
| genehacker | you win | 20:13 |
| drazak | you don't got nothin' on my dad | 20:13 |
| genehacker | I don't | 20:13 |
| drazak | nor doesyour dad | 20:13 |
| drazak | anyway what kind of special speakers were they | 20:13 |
| genehacker | flat panel speakers | 20:14 |
| genehacker | they were flat so they radiate sound better or something | 20:14 |
| jonathan__ | imagine if he bought google stock instead. wowwwww | 20:14 |
| drazak | oh those are usually crap unless really expensiv e | 20:14 |
| ybit | this home-built looks like the bat mobile: http://forums.yourgarage.nbc.com/index.php?showtopic=69 | 20:14 |
| genehacker | http://www.airshiptg.org/airshipdrivebywire.htm | 20:15 |
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| katsmeow-afk | i had a pair of Ultralinear brand speakers, sounded good at 20 watts peak | 20:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | had a flat disk in the middle of the alleged 10 inch woofer | 20:16 |
| drazak | those were ok | 20:16 |
| genehacker | these were a flat plate | 20:17 |
| genehacker | the whole plate was a coil | 20:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | i found a speaker that resembles those woofers, about 5 yrs ago, after a decade of looking at specs, bought some, the Dog Era began, and they are still sitting upstairs in the unopened boxes | 20:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | you speak of a ribbon speaker? | 20:18 |
| genehacker | I don't know | 20:18 |
| genehacker | they're a flat plate type sound radiation device | 20:19 |
| genehacker | 1 is as tall as a man | 20:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | square radiator, the "coil" is on edge flat wire, set into a slotted labyrinth of magnet structure | 20:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | i didn't look at them closely, but i off-paw couldn't see how they got rid of back pressure with large plates | 20:21 |
| drazak | hehe | 20:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | there was another kind of ribbon for tweeters, they were angled and exposed, with magnetic structure on onely the backside, the ribbon was in V shape, and made sound whenthe V squeesed closed | 20:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | ybit, hope this misses us : http://www.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?ID=BMX®ion=c4&lat=33.51913834&lon=-86.80933380&label=Birmingham%2c%20AL | 20:32 |
| kanzure | fenn: a lens could shift the light | 20:39 |
| kanzure | a polarized film of some sort | 20:39 |
| kanzure | it's probably easier to just use a piece of fiber optic though | 20:39 |
| fenn | what are you talking about | 20:58 |
| kanzure | your reply to jonathan__ | 20:59 |
| fenn | LED's are monochromatic | 20:59 |
| fenn | even white led's are not really white | 20:59 |
| kanzure | can't you shift the wavelength by passing it through a filter? | 20:59 |
| fenn | not unless it's made of unobtanium | 20:59 |
| fenn | (if that answer wasn't clear, it's a "no") | 20:59 |
| jonathan__ | eh | 21:00 |
| kanzure | bolonkin says it's possible though | 21:00 |
| jonathan__ | white led's are pretty flat | 21:00 |
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| fenn | jonathan__: i might look the other way if they were using a white LED and diffraction grating, but they just used an orange LED | 21:01 |
| kanzure | clearly i do not know my optics | 21:01 |
| jonathan__ | i dont know what you are referring to | 21:02 |
| fenn | also white led's have probably improved a bit since i've last read about them | 21:02 |
| fenn | in http://www.rsc.org/Education/EiC/issues/2007Sept/BuildYourOwnSpectrophotometer.asp | 21:02 |
| jonathan__ | oh | 21:03 |
| jonathan__ | well, that's just a toy | 21:03 |
| jonathan__ | it's for freshmen or something, just to get hands wet | 21:04 |
| fenn | as opposed to what? | 21:04 |
| jonathan__ | LDRs are wavelength sensitive too - not flat | 21:04 |
| fenn | sure, i agree | 21:04 |
| jonathan__ | i have to re-read it to see what parts they are using it's been a while | 21:05 |
| jonathan__ | i'm just tired of the continual re-hash of same old "hey what if we use an LED?" stuff so I posted a summary | 21:07 |
| fenn | but what's with these "spectrophotometers" that don't even use a diffraction grating? (like the citizenscience urinomics thingy) | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | trying to get beyond "hey lets make a gel box" stuff | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | oh, that is possible | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | using many different led's each with calibrated curves has been proven | 21:07 |
| fenn | but that's just about as effective as looking at it | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | i dunno about that project specifically, i was not impressed | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | "looking" at it? | 21:07 |
| fenn | yes | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | no some led's are quite narrow or wide | 21:07 |
| fenn | your eyes have 3 or 4 different wavelength sensitive detectors | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | a curve can be fit from, I dunno, 6+ led's | 21:07 |
| fenn | so 3 or 4 LED's is not so much different from looking at it | 21:07 |
| jonathan__ | i dunno, can you write out 8 bits of RGB from the font you are reading now? | 21:08 |
| jonathan__ | quantitative not qualitative | 21:08 |
| fenn | if i had a pantone chart | 21:08 |
| jonathan__ | sure and good lighting and practice and and and | 21:08 |
| jonathan__ | I can use a quarter instead of a flathead screwdriver but guess what I reach for | 21:08 |
| fenn | yes.. good lighting | 21:08 |
| jonathan__ | read up on diamond's papers, he has shown the led method in several projects using led as sensor and emitter | 21:09 |
| fenn | i'm just seriously underwhelmed by the quality of most DIY lab equipment papers | 21:09 |
| jonathan__ | diamond(sp) | 21:09 |
| jonathan__ | these papers are for intro undergrad labs, thats why | 21:10 |
| fenn | that's no excuse | 21:10 |
| jonathan__ | most DIY lab equip is lame to begin with | 21:10 |
| jonathan__ | DIY woodworker vs. ikea... who wins, even tho ikea is crap too? | 21:10 |
| kanzure | i think we can all agree that we want to be not lame. | 21:10 |
| jonathan__ | DIY auto guy vs. auto shop.. who wins? yeah | 21:10 |
| jonathan__ | then be professional not diy | 21:11 |
| kanzure | professionsl don't do anything? | 21:11 |
| kanzure | sorry, what? | 21:11 |
| jonathan__ | ha, what | 21:11 |
| fenn | if you're going to publish a paper on it, at least make it not suck | 21:11 |
| fenn | what happened to peer review? | 21:11 |
| jonathan__ | uh.. bio papers suck, by defn | 21:11 |
| fenn | maybe there should be a anti-peer review.. submit your paper to people outside of your discipline | 21:12 |
| jonathan__ | i have been wasting all this time reading "lab on chip" for what? I find out it sucks, when compared to any of the chem eng similar journals, or IEEE... now I dont read it anymore, it's like a joke | 21:12 |
| kanzure | send it to your own worst enemy? "dear sir, enclosed is my latest manuscript. dearly, your long hated nemesis, dr. monroe" | 21:12 |
| jonathan__ | PLOS is that way - papers are individually voted, no more journal metric nonsense | 21:12 |
| jonathan__ | this spec with opamp project is an educational paper.. for AP high school or entry undergrad, that is all, dont get so concerned | 21:13 |
| fenn | i mean biologists aren't really qualified to review hardware designs | 21:13 |
| kanzure | much less calibration charts | 21:14 |
| fenn | huh? | 21:14 |
| jonathan__ | do you really want tim heath going on about growing hearts by printing mammalian cells or would he be better served by trying a simple spec... | 21:14 |
| kanzure | "eh it looks about right" said the biologist to the gel one day | 21:14 |
| kanzure | jonathan__: i think xp_prg should fuck off and go to hell | 21:14 |
| fenn | tim heath won't ever get excited about a spectrophotometer anyway | 21:14 |
| jonathan__ | well, whatever, the entry diybio people | 21:15 |
| fenn | probably he doesn't even see the need for it | 21:15 |
| jonathan__ | or hell, the journalists | 21:15 |
| jonathan__ | anyway i'm slowly fleshing out the faq so we can all start posting "go read the faq" when yet another "hey let's make our own gel box" thing comes up or etc... | 21:15 |
| kanzure | they would all be served by going away | 21:16 |
| jonathan__ | get the easy stuff documented and move on.... | 21:16 |
| kanzure | sorry the faq sucks so much | 21:16 |
| kanzure | i tried to do that | 21:16 |
| fenn | i think the journalists have moved on for a while at least | 21:16 |
| kanzure | but have failed i guess | 21:16 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:White_LED.png | 21:16 |
| jonathan__ | the sociologists haven't.. yet another philosophical debate is right around the corner lol | 21:16 |
| kanzure | any *ist should be burned | 21:17 |
| jonathan__ | "This spectrum is not calibrated for intensity." | 21:17 |
| fenn | nihilist! | 21:17 |
| fenn | burn him! | 21:17 |
| jonathan__ | wth? the graph shows intensity and it's not calibrated for intensity?? | 21:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: i don't have a degree in nihilism | 21:18 |
| fenn | meh | 21:18 |
| jonathan__ | anyway light source doesnt matter | 21:18 |
| jonathan__ | if the rest of the system works, then just change out the emitter, big deal | 21:18 |
| fenn | with enough software, we can pretend anything is anything | 21:18 |
| fenn | or was that math.. | 21:18 |
| jonathan__ | the emitter is like 5% of the total project | 21:18 |
| fenn | yeah i sorta wonder how you calibrate for wavelength | 21:19 |
| fenn | do certain substances have sharp absorbance peaks? | 21:19 |
| jonathan__ | about the other paper with the heater, the point was actually to show the heater mech drawing | 21:19 |
| fenn | the schematic? | 21:19 |
| jonathan__ | let me check | 21:19 |
| jonathan__ | btw did you see the nyc diybio group strawberry "science day" thing | 21:20 |
| jonathan__ | the cdrom spec project is perfect for them | 21:20 |
| jonathan__ | fig. 2 | 21:21 |
| kanzure | jonathan__: why are you pandering to these people? | 21:21 |
| kanzure | i know why fenn is tolerating the bullshit | 21:21 |
| kanzure | but what's your reason? | 21:21 |
| fenn | the square thingy with circle thingy looks hard to make | 21:21 |
| jonathan__ | what is pandering? | 21:21 |
| fenn | kanzure: i'm not tolerating it, i'm ignoring it | 21:21 |
| jonathan__ | i mean what is your context? | 21:21 |
| kanzure | you're sacrificing quality or something just to keep them happy and occupied | 21:22 |
| jonathan__ | every time dna synthesis comes up, you go on and on about how everyone should diy everything, so who is pandering who? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | no, | 21:22 |
| jonathan__ | which of course is totally false, no one should diy a commodity | 21:22 |
| kanzure | i'm saying that *i* want to do it myself | 21:22 |
| kanzure | so they should fuck off and stop telling me not to | 21:22 |
| fenn | i don't see what's so wrong about wanting a desktop DNA synthesizer | 21:22 |
| jonathan__ | well, stop answering them too | 21:22 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:23 |
| jonathan__ | signal to noise ratio | 21:23 |
| jonathan__ | definition | 21:23 |
| kanzure | sorry, what? | 21:23 |
| jonathan__ | high signal, low noise. | 21:23 |
| jonathan__ | signal = technical discussion. noise = worthless debate | 21:23 |
| fenn | what about totally useless technical discussion? | 21:23 |
| jonathan__ | more tech discussion, less worhless debate. is better for high signal to noise ratio | 21:23 |
| kanzure | every time dna synthesis is brought up, *they* bring up the debate | 21:23 |
| kanzure | don't blame me for their bullshit | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | then you ignore it | 21:24 |
| kanzure | um? | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | there is no useless technical discussion | 21:24 |
| kanzure | maybe they should just leave | 21:24 |
| kanzure | if they're not actually interested in diy | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | that is the worst attitude ever | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | you wont win that battle | 21:24 |
| kanzure | it's not a battle | 21:24 |
| kanzure | they're just idiots.. | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | argument = battle | 21:24 |
| kanzure | making noise that i can't tolerate | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | "they're just idiots" = battle | 21:24 |
| jonathan__ | hit the delete key | 21:25 |
| jonathan__ | come on this is basic stuff here | 21:25 |
| kanzure | so we all have to hit the delete key? | 21:25 |
| jonathan__ | didn't you add to the faq "dont be rude" ? | 21:25 |
| fenn | hah | 21:25 |
| jonathan__ | ignore messages you don't like | 21:25 |
| kanzure | for message trimming | 21:25 |
| jonathan__ | talk about technical stuff instead | 21:25 |
| kanzure | i think for one time offenses it's perfectly fine to ignore the offense | 21:25 |
| kanzure | but you mentioned this is repetitive | 21:25 |
| kanzure | maybe that's telling you something | 21:26 |
| jonathan__ | let it go, you will not win | 21:26 |
| jonathan__ | ignore it, | 21:26 |
| kanzure | win what? | 21:26 |
| jonathan__ | ok listen, basic rule of internet discussions. rule #1. drown out the lame conversation with better conversation | 21:26 |
| kanzure | i told you i'ts not a battle | 21:26 |
| fenn | "don't feed the troll" | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | exactly | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | "offense" = "battle" | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | = "argument" | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | = "dont tell me that I can't diy my dna synthesis" | 21:27 |
| kanzure | so telling me that diy dna synthesis is impossible is trolling? | 21:27 |
| kanzure | isn't this what moderators are for? | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | = "rant rant rant I want to do diy and you should too" | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | there are no moderators | 21:27 |
| kanzure | yes there are | 21:27 |
| jonathan__ | you must be your own moderator | 21:28 |
| kanzure | there's three of them | 21:28 |
| kanzure | anyway, carry on | 21:28 |
| fenn | besides, a good troll considers moderators as damage and routes around them, or something | 21:28 |
| jonathan__ | def'n. moderator: "someone who approves each message before it is emailed to all subscribers on a list. unacceptable mesasges are dropped before mailing." | 21:28 |
| jonathan__ | so the point of the paper was the heater fig 2 | 21:29 |
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| jonathan__ | "open thermocycler" guys seem fixated on creating a huge heating block of some kind, I dont know why | 21:30 |
| fenn | because it's "professional" | 21:30 |
| kanzure | that was just a giant thread, to my knowledge there's nobody actually doing anything | 21:31 |
| jonathan__ | well, they want to replace current equipment, that's why | 21:31 |
| jonathan__ | rather than evolve it to a next gen | 21:31 |
| jonathan__ | so what's difficult about making the heater element? I dunno, I'm not mech e | 21:31 |
| jonathan__ | looks simple to me | 21:32 |
| jonathan__ | although, pcr tube is different, fits inside not on top | 21:32 |
| ybit | katsmeow-afk: re, weather: eek | 21:33 |
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| ybit | anyone built a car from the ground up? i'm hearing estimates of 2-4 years to complete the project :\ | 21:34 |
| jonathan__ | i'm not sure what the top IC is doing in that schematic, it doesnt make sense unless the software is explained.. | 21:34 |
| jonathan__ | glow curves are kind of fascinating tho, I admit | 21:35 |
| ybit | what companies/orgs allow you to attache modules to their rockets? | 21:35 |
| jonathan__ | maybe posting the paper makes no sense if I'm the only one looking at schematics in detail | 21:36 |
| ybit | nah, i always read this stuff later | 21:37 |
| ybit | keep posting | 21:37 |
| fenn | what's the heater sandwich made of? | 21:37 |
| jonathan__ | the idea is to raise some technical discussion. journal club isnt any good if no one comments. altho it's an easy way for me to archive comments on the paper to blog it or faq it later | 21:38 |
| jonathan__ | do you have the paper? | 21:38 |
| jonathan__ | "Chromel is an alloy made of approximately 90 percent nickel and 10 percent chromium that is used to make the positive conductors of ANSI Type E (chromel-constantan) and K (chromel-alumel) thermocouples." "Alumel is an alloy consisting of approximately 95% nickel, 2% manganese, 2% aluminium and 1% silicon. This magnetic alloy is used for thermocouples and thermocouple extension wire. " | 21:39 |
| jonathan__ | I dont know what the rails are made of, I assume it is alumel from the pic | 21:40 |
| jonathan__ | the alumel is wrapped in tightly wound nichrome wire | 21:40 |
| jonathan__ | "0.25 mm nichrome wire" dunno what guage that is | 21:40 |
| jonathan__ | so the nichrome heats up under PWM, and the thermocouple measures | 21:41 |
| jonathan__ | oh sorry, I got all that wrong | 21:41 |
| fenn | chromel/alumel are the two wires wrapped around the bottom rail | 21:42 |
| fenn | er.. it's not really clear if those are two electrical conductors or one | 21:42 |
| jonathan__ | no, the wires dont wrap | 21:43 |
| jonathan__ | the chromal/alumel will just twist at the very center | 21:43 |
| jonathan__ | the nicrome wraps the bottom ceramic plate, which also has the rail/fins | 21:43 |
| jonathan__ | both top & bottom are "1 mm thick polished ceramic plate" | 21:43 |
| fenn | what are the wires sticking out left/right? | 21:44 |
| jonathan__ | that is nichrome wire that is wound around tightly (like a transformer winding) | 21:44 |
| jonathan__ | = heater | 21:44 |
| ybit | #off-topic of current discussion: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Battery_system ..wonder how long difficult it would be to replicate this] | 21:45 |
| jonathan__ | the top ceramic plate has a groove 0.5mm x 0.5mm cut to allow the crhromel/alumel wires to go thru the center | 21:45 |
| fenn | ybit i think the batteries alone cost $40k | 21:46 |
| jonathan__ | so anyway it is similar to what I was thinking for thermocycler (wrap nichrome around some heatable material) | 21:46 |
| jonathan__ | which is why I was looking for heat conductive epoxy | 21:47 |
| fenn | ok | 21:47 |
| jonathan__ | nichrome is usually wrapped around ceramic (toaster oven etc) | 21:47 |
| fenn | yea but that's radiant heat | 21:47 |
| jonathan__ | both as support and as nonconductive heat resistant post | 21:47 |
| ybit | 40k for simple lithium-ion batteries? | 21:47 |
| fenn | there's a lot of batteries | 21:48 |
| jonathan__ | radiant heat means what? | 21:48 |
| fenn | it's not conducting heat into the ceramic | 21:48 |
| ybit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiant_heat | 21:48 |
| jonathan__ | compared to? | 21:48 |
| fenn | er.. burying the nichrome inside the ceramic like a power resistor | 21:48 |
| jonathan__ | well, there's 2 ceramic plates in fig 2, so it is internal | 21:49 |
| fenn | ceramics tend to have poor thermal conductivity | 21:49 |
| jonathan__ | so thats why they're only 1mm thick? | 21:50 |
| fenn | i bet they used ceramic because it has to go up to 500C to measure the emission spectrum | 21:50 |
| jonathan__ | hm | 21:50 |
| fenn | and then they were like "how do we get the heating even with such awful conductivity" | 21:51 |
| fenn | so that's why they have a huge square around the circle, to present an even heat flux | 21:51 |
| jonathan__ | does heat conductive epoxy solve that? | 21:51 |
| fenn | i doubt it | 21:51 |
| jonathan__ | mg chemicals | 21:51 |
| jonathan__ | http://dkc1.digikey.com/ca/en/ph/MGChemical/EpoxyTC.html | 21:52 |
| jonathan__ | non conductive, thermally conductive | 21:52 |
| fenn | what's more important, rapid temperature change or even heating? | 21:52 |
| jonathan__ | rapid temp change | 21:52 |
| fenn | then you want to minimize thermal mass | 21:52 |
| jonathan__ | because, even heating can be worked around by making a bigger heater vs small sample right | 21:52 |
| fenn | the absolute minimum is no mass at all.. i.e. the lightbulb heater | 21:53 |
| jonathan__ | yes, however nichrome needs some support and also needs nonconductive insulation | 21:53 |
| jonathan__ | rather than get a big block of aluminum and drill holes in it, why not make wells of nichrome that are supported, and pcr tube sits in the well | 21:54 |
| fenn | i don't see any reason why not | 21:54 |
| jonathan__ | maybe it's a bad design which is why it hasn't been mentioned, but I dunno | 21:54 |
| fenn | just more labor intensive | 21:54 |
| fenn | also you have to individually calibrate the wells | 21:55 |
| jonathan__ | labor depends... the block would need machining anyway.. with nichrome it's just a winding and epoxy it | 21:55 |
| jonathan__ | in fig 2, the thermocouple is built in, so it can negative feedback itself | 21:55 |
| fenn | how do you get rid of heat? | 21:56 |
| jonathan__ | if mass is low, then it dissipates rapidly, so choices are, use a fan, or use a coolant | 21:56 |
| jonathan__ | thermocycling w/ only a fan is possible, seems more possible if mass is low | 21:57 |
| fenn | ok tell me this, what is the advantage of individually wound heater coils vs arranging the tubes around a light bulb? | 21:57 |
| fenn | or perhaps suspending them over some IR-emissive nichrome wire grid | 21:58 |
| fenn | that's a good idea fenn.. /me gets self a cookie | 21:59 |
| jonathan__ | nichrome emits much more heat than light bulb, and also lasts far longer. also nichrome can be shaped to the vessel. | 21:59 |
| jonathan__ | "suspending over heater" assumes a fan is blowing the hot air right. has been shown not to be good for thermal conductivity esp. in plastic tubes. (glass was marginal/OK) | 22:00 |
| fenn | no | 22:00 |
| jonathan__ | in effect it is the plastic pcr tubes which are the biggest problem | 22:00 |
| kanzure | on my todo stack: http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.CL/0104022 | 22:00 |
| fenn | i mean like you have a plane IR light source | 22:01 |
| jonathan__ | ok just go ahead and say it | 22:01 |
| jonathan__ | LETS USE A LAzERZ!!1@ | 22:01 |
| fenn | sorry kanzure is rotting my brains now | 22:01 |
| jonathan__ | you will have to explain "some IR-emissive nichrome wire grid" | 22:02 |
| fenn | a wire mesh with current going through it | 22:02 |
| jonathan__ | o | 22:02 |
| jonathan__ | ok | 22:02 |
| fenn | light bulb is a point source so you need a radial /spherical arrangement for even heating between tubes | 22:03 |
| jonathan__ | flat plane not as good as sitting a tube inside a heater | 22:03 |
| fenn | with a plane source you can do a more traditional grid layout | 22:03 |
| jonathan__ | I have always been thinking independent well heating, so... | 22:03 |
| fenn | ok | 22:03 |
| fenn | beats the hell out of the 'gradient' stuff | 22:04 |
| jonathan__ | maybe that is not a good idea due to neg/pos controls | 22:04 |
| fenn | meh | 22:04 |
| jonathan__ | maybe best fit for protocols is to have all wells uniform | 22:04 |
| jonathan__ | but, if each one is measured & calibrated, should be OK as long as uP can handle it | 22:05 |
| jonathan__ | i.e., no cost to use independent well control | 22:05 |
| jonathan__ | well this thermal compound is $55 for 450ml sooooo | 22:06 |
| jonathan__ | note the fig. 2 : " operating at much lower currents (0.5 A)" | 22:08 |
| jonathan__ | it's 30W | 22:08 |
| jonathan__ | seems thermocyclers are 100's of W | 22:09 |
| jonathan__ | I cant believe the $10 thermocycler guys have never stated power, still | 22:09 |
| jonathan__ | anyway post remaining thoughts to the group, i'm going to sleep | 22:16 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercane | 22:35 |
| ybit | http://pastebin.com/f6aeda4f8 related: http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/C_CPP/comp.lang.c/2005-05/msg02005.html | 22:40 |
| ybit | adrafanil hasn't kicked in, like the first day. according to some web comment, you have to wait a few weeks | 22:41 |
| * ybit knows of only one other person that would be interested in a hackerspace here o.O | 22:42 | |
| * ybit needs to put up some flyers @ the uni maybe.. | 22:42 | |
| * katsmeow-afk discovered keto-dhea | 22:45 | |
| katsmeow-afk | at least now when i goto bed, i am tired, and i sleep quickly | 22:46 |
| ybit | anyone recall which news article showed uni students building small devices which were payloads for some rocket launch? | 23:12 |
| kanzure | microsats | 23:21 |
| kanzure | nanosats, etc. | 23:21 |
| ybit | plenty of them, seems i'll probably need to partner with some uni if i'm going to get a payload on some rocket | 23:21 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: kanzure * r 85096c4 /doc/architecture: notes on the architecture of instruction generation in skdb | 23:23 |
| * ybit wants a rundown costs for a launching a rocket into space | 23:27 | |
| ybit | +of | 23:27 |
| ybit | -a | 23:27 |
| ybit | fsck grammar @ 23:23 | 23:27 |
| fenn | i dont think anyone noticed | 23:54 |
| fenn | kanzure: you wanted comments.. the subject in "subject verb object" is the one performing the action | 23:54 |
| fenn | "man bites dog": man is the subject, dog is the object | 23:55 |
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