| --- Day changed Tue Sep 29 2009 | ||
| genehacker | dang I tried downloading that | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| genehacker | it didn't work | 00:07 |
| genehacker | water droplet litho or something | 00:08 |
| ybit | http://ybit.ath.cx/unsorted_papers/Water-drop%20projector.pdf ? | 00:11 |
| ybit | genehacker: what's the full name of the paper? | 00:14 |
| genehacker | error file not found | 00:20 |
| genehacker | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Microfabrication-and-nanomanufacturing-Pulsed%20water%20drop%20micromachining.pdf | 00:21 |
| genehacker | it's big | 00:22 |
| ybit | genehacker: thank you, geez, i couldn't remember the name of it | 00:22 |
| ybit | was looking for Microfabrication and Nanomanufacturing.pdf | 00:22 |
| ybit | genehacker: http://ybit.ath.cx/unsorted_papers/Microfabrication-and-nanomanufacturing-Pulsed%20water%20drop%20micromachining.pdf | 00:23 |
| genehacker | ERROR | 00:23 |
| genehacker | document is damaged | 00:23 |
| ybit | huh, yeah, similar error for me | 00:25 |
| genehacker | http://books.google.com/books?id=pHGamfN8y8sC&pg=PA250&lpg=PA250&dq=pulsed+water+drop+micromachining&source=bl&ots=YbVqtH1XQq&sig=2snWRA9JAomu5MF-qMar2L8ZU_s&hl=en&ei=65rBSrW9CpGssgP9mOnJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 | 00:27 |
| genehacker | YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DOING | 00:27 |
| genehacker | download google book ripper | 00:27 |
| ybit | eh? | 00:28 |
| genehacker | google book ripper | 00:29 |
| ybit | that's a limited preview, the entire book is available online | 00:29 |
| genehacker | google book ripper.... | 00:29 |
| ybit | ..for free | 00:29 |
| genehacker | look it up | 00:29 |
| genehacker | out | 00:29 |
| ybit | yeah, but it doesn't grab the entire book if it's limited preview | 00:29 |
| ybit | gn | 00:29 |
| genehacker | it does | 00:29 |
| ybit | http://googlebookdownloader.codeplex.com/ :: features, Partially download any book from Google Books marked as 'Limited preview' | 00:30 |
| ybit | Download any book from Google Books marked as 'Full view' | 00:30 |
| genehacker | oops | 00:30 |
| ybit | it just puts everything you can do on your own in a nice little web-gui | 00:31 |
| fenn | rawr | 00:46 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/pie.py? | 00:47 |
| fenn | thank you | 00:47 |
| kanzure | no >:( | 00:47 |
| CIA-32 | skdb: kanzure * r b50385d /doc/proposals/pie.py: Pie, Apple, Color, need to reimplement Color- was hoping to do build dependencies with parse trees | 00:49 |
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| flamoot | http://ansistego.sf.net/Advice-Dog-xoylep.jpg | 03:00 |
| genehacker | ??? | 03:01 |
| AchiestDragon | fenn what i am trying to explain to you is ,, when you machine a block of material as a rule of thumb you should take the spindle power ie like say 500W work out the max cut depth like say the max single pass of the cutter say take 1" square on wood | 03:05 |
| AchiestDragon | the max stress on the machine is equivelent to that ,, so what 1/4hp for 500W thats would be like tring to bend the machine using a crow bar ,, to test the strenth you would need to try to bend the frame out of allignment using a crowbar attached to where the spindle would usualy be | 03:08 |
| AchiestDragon | if the frame flexes more than 1 thou then thats the effect you get when cutting at that rate | 03:09 |
| AchiestDragon | now 1" cube pre second cut rate though ply wood is not that hard ,, but its only the equivelent of a .1" cube cut rate in steel | 03:10 |
| fenn | AchiestDragon: how do i calculate cutting force? | 03:15 |
| AchiestDragon | if you want it to be quick then you need to take as mutch material off in one pass like removeing 1mm on a 30mm by 30mm surface using a 1mm dia cutter is going to be = to a cutter travel distance of 900mm per pass at say 30ipm thats going to take about 2 mins | 03:15 |
| AchiestDragon | cutting force best way to look at it is this way | 03:16 |
| genehacker | cutting force could be empirical | 03:16 |
| fenn | as far as i know there is no direct analytical calculation, but some tables would be good enough | 03:16 |
| fenn | or an approximatino | 03:16 |
| AchiestDragon | take the 1" milling cutter at a depth of 1" (or the max you could use on the machine ) | 03:17 |
| fenn | like k*hardness*cutter cross section/rpm | 03:17 |
| AchiestDragon | take the material you wish to cut from it | 03:17 |
| fenn | (with real numbers for k) | 03:17 |
| AchiestDragon | then make a bar of that material | 03:17 |
| genehacker | hmmm... | 03:17 |
| genehacker | I think my materials processing textbook has the answer | 03:17 |
| AchiestDragon | in order to snap that bar you need to apply x amount of ft lb's | 03:18 |
| fenn | with a given amount of power i can increase force or increase rpm | 03:18 |
| fenn | yes i know what tensile strength is | 03:18 |
| genehacker | ft lbs ugh | 03:18 |
| AchiestDragon | use that ft lb figure as the amount of strain that you should be able to apply to the machine before the machine flexes out of allign more than 1 thou of an inch | 03:19 |
| genehacker | in cutting metal | 03:19 |
| genehacker | you cut chips | 03:19 |
| AchiestDragon | thats assuming you want a worst case of 1 thou accuratly | 03:19 |
| fenn | AchiestDragon: but how do i know what the cutting force is in the first place | 03:19 |
| genehacker | it has to do with chipping | 03:19 |
| fenn | i just pick force and then adjust power to suit? | 03:19 |
| AchiestDragon | the design you are showing me is quite good for a number of reasons , but in some others its verry bad | 03:20 |
| genehacker | http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/sme/mfrg315/machforc1.htm | 03:20 |
| genehacker | google cutting force | 03:20 |
| genehacker | get answer | 03:20 |
| AchiestDragon | for plastics and light materials its fine | 03:20 |
| fenn | also i can get increased accuracy by not trying to do it all in one go (roughing THEN finishing) | 03:20 |
| fenn | the issue is whether it can do roughing at all, right? | 03:20 |
| AchiestDragon | but like any machine you could machine granite blocks on it the critical factor is cutting rate and depth | 03:21 |
| AchiestDragon | utube some of the cnc machines on there ,, theres vids of some machningin v8 engine blocks from solid alunimuim blocks | 03:22 |
| genehacker | remove thinner chips faster | 03:22 |
| AchiestDragon | there fast machines | 03:22 |
| fenn | i would like to see some quantitative analysis of "how fast" | 03:22 |
| AchiestDragon | well | 03:22 |
| fenn | what are the units for describing this? | 03:22 |
| AchiestDragon | simple | 03:22 |
| fenn | 'v8 engine block' tells me nothing | 03:23 |
| AchiestDragon | ipm inches of movment per min | 03:23 |
| fenn | no | 03:23 |
| fenn | that has nothing to do with material removal | 03:23 |
| AchiestDragon | feed rate | 03:23 |
| AchiestDragon | cutter speed /power allong with feed rate gives you that ,, but thats proportional to the amount you take off in one pass of the cutter | 03:24 |
| AchiestDragon | as to speed the main thing is to do with cutter size | 03:24 |
| fenn | i can hook up a 50hp hydraulic motor up to an inkjet printer but it won't make it into a jig borer | 03:25 |
| AchiestDragon | ok so ignore final detailed cuts but machine a dome shape from a solid block theres a lot of material to remove around the dome first correct | 03:25 |
| fenn | god i feel like i'm stuck in the dark ages arguing with a blacksmith about pyramid head screws | 03:26 |
| fenn | "yar she be made of the finest metal, pounded many a time by a loyal servant" | 03:26 |
| genehacker | I should probably dig out my textbook if this keeps up | 03:27 |
| AchiestDragon | if your machine is limited to 1mm per pass of the tool then if its a 300 mm cube block you got to make thousends of passes to get the block to approximate shape | 03:27 |
| fenn | genehacker: that page you linked to almost gives the answer... unfortunately they don't provide real numbers for the conversion constant so it's useless | 03:27 |
| genehacker | try the asm handbook | 03:28 |
| fenn | oh lemme pull that out of my ass | 03:28 |
| genehacker | http://products.asminternational.org/hbk/index.jsp | 03:29 |
| genehacker | sigh | 03:29 |
| fenn | it's free online? | 03:29 |
| genehacker | yeah | 03:29 |
| AchiestDragon | no joke 30ipm it can take 25 mins to just drill out a 10 by 10 grid of holes 10mm apart ,, to mill out a sculptured surface with a 1mm cutter would take 6 to 7 hours a pass | 03:29 |
| genehacker | see machining | 03:29 |
| AchiestDragon | at 300mm deep thats going to take 300 * that | 03:29 |
| genehacker | forces and stresses in machining | 03:29 |
| fenn | it's very slow to load | 03:30 |
| AchiestDragon | the other realy big problem you need to account for that i did not mention yesterday but you can fix | 03:30 |
| fenn | what does "h" stand for in 2.5.1? http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/sme/mfrg315/machforc1.htm | 03:31 |
| AchiestDragon | the frame would need to be made of the same material you are using to make those linear actuators from | 03:31 |
| AchiestDragon | dew to the expantion rates of diferent mettals at the same temp | 03:32 |
| genehacker | not true | 03:32 |
| fenn | yes i agree | 03:32 |
| genehacker | it's possible to compensate for thermal effects | 03:32 |
| genehacker | but it's a good idea | 03:32 |
| fenn | otherwise the bottom of the octahedron grows/shrinks differently which affects the angles | 03:32 |
| AchiestDragon | the frame would need to be made of the same material you are using to make those linear actuators from <<< that compensates for it | 03:32 |
| fenn | however the actuators will be heating/cooling way more than the frame (which is doing nothing) | 03:33 |
| fenn | it's not like a mill which is conductively coupled | 03:33 |
| fenn | for high precision stuffs i am considering a cooling channel inside the screw | 03:34 |
| genehacker | use extension sensors and adaptive control | 03:34 |
| fenn | but that is just dreaming at this point | 03:34 |
| fenn | yeah the NIST hexapod used interferometers down the center | 03:34 |
| fenn | lasers | 03:34 |
| AchiestDragon | well you can cool the drives to ambiant but the whole machine is a diferent phisical size at 0C than it is at 50C ambiant | 03:35 |
| fenn | i this asm thing would be way more useful if it took less than 5 minutes to load each time i clicked on anything | 03:35 |
| AchiestDragon | the problems start to arrise from silly stuff like part of the machine is sat in direct sunlight and the other part not because its by a window on a hot day that can be a 20C diference | 03:36 |
| fenn | oh duh "h w L" is height width length | 03:36 |
| AchiestDragon | then one part of the machine is biger than the other making it out | 03:36 |
| fenn | AchiestDragon: but how much does that affect the final part? | 03:36 |
| fenn | also i want automatic self calibration method | 03:37 |
| fenn | anyway i havent touched this project in years *sigh* | 03:38 |
| AchiestDragon | well if you got one of those actuators a few mill out of level then the piece it makes could look fine but you find that its not quite square where it should be and the edjes are not quite flat theres a bow to it | 03:39 |
| AchiestDragon | by the ammount of error in the displacment of that axis point | 03:40 |
| fenn | yes hence the self calibration | 03:40 |
| fenn | i don't count on getting everything exactly perfect, that's the whole point | 03:41 |
| fenn | aha! finally i get to the actual article on asm handbook and it asks me to log in | 03:42 |
| fenn | contact a representative about subscription options etc | 03:42 |
| fenn | ok so i think i can work something out about rpm vs specific cutting energy vs cutting force from those equations.. only wish they had done it instead of making me do it | 03:43 |
| AchiestDragon | auto calibaration well not easy and not cheap to impliment the worst part to do that is you need to ensure the calibration move to points are calibrated | 03:43 |
| AchiestDragon | and thats about as hard as setting the machine up to be calibrated in the frist place | 03:44 |
| fenn | pff not cheap? all you need is a magnet, a cylinder with centers drilled (any length) and two ball bearings that can be attached to stuff | 03:44 |
| AchiestDragon | you using steel tube | 03:44 |
| fenn | or you could do a variable length ball bar (linear distance sensor instead) | 03:45 |
| fenn | not "move to" | 03:45 |
| AchiestDragon | bended folded flat and bolted ,,, would recommend at least welding it together after its bolted and leveled | 03:46 |
| fenn | NO | 03:46 |
| fenn | the whole point is it comes apart | 03:46 |
| fenn | and it doesn't need to be leveled | 03:46 |
| AchiestDragon | useing gripnuts | 03:46 |
| AchiestDragon | ? | 03:46 |
| fenn | you are thinking "big heavy chunk of iron" | 03:46 |
| fenn | i am thinking "briefcase machine tool" | 03:46 |
| AchiestDragon | yea i know | 03:47 |
| fenn | welding would accomplish nothing but make it hard to take apart | 03:47 |
| fenn | i may have to use a dowel to keep the frame from shifting but we'll see | 03:47 |
| AchiestDragon | think the main issue is down to what cutting spindle you use | 03:48 |
| fenn | even a tapered bolt (what's that called?) would not be too bad | 03:48 |
| fenn | yeah the orange HF laminate trimmer is not up to the job | 03:48 |
| fenn | alternatives depend on the level of infrastructure available to the builder | 03:48 |
| AchiestDragon | you know thoes plastic tent pole joiners | 03:49 |
| fenn | no | 03:49 |
| fenn | just a tube that slips over the tent pole? | 03:49 |
| AchiestDragon | i know you cant use plastics but made from aluminium you make a pole joiner block ( not heavy weight ) that you slot the poles into | 03:50 |
| fenn | ok i see where you're going | 03:50 |
| AchiestDragon | hole in it for a pin so the machine is pinned together | 03:50 |
| fenn | main concern is how to mount the joints to the frame without excessive offset from the vertex | 03:51 |
| AchiestDragon | because bending tube defetes the whole point of using tube as it makes the bend points week like as if it was flat strip | 03:51 |
| fenn | right | 03:51 |
| fenn | the highest compressive stress is in the midpoint of the tube | 03:51 |
| fenn | i'm not so worried about tensile strength | 03:51 |
| fenn | buckling is | 03:52 |
| AchiestDragon | yea | 03:52 |
| fenn | i've thought about this sort of thing plenty for geodesic dome construction | 03:53 |
| fenn | the ideal shape is a revolution of a catenary curve | 03:53 |
| AchiestDragon | for a 500W router and a frame like that , you got to be phisicaly rough in tring this but if you can bend it or flex it by hand then you should need to strenthen the parts that do | 03:53 |
| fenn | like the st. louis arch swept around an axis | 03:53 |
| AchiestDragon | that also includes thowing yourself ontop of it jumping on it | 03:54 |
| AchiestDragon | etc | 03:54 |
| fenn | heh how do i measure this | 03:54 |
| fenn | much rather just hang a weight on it | 03:54 |
| fenn | engineering! | 03:54 |
| fenn | quantitative measurements, can you imagine | 03:54 |
| AchiestDragon | 1 min let me find link | 03:54 |
| * fenn still hasn't even started his book | 03:55 | |
| AchiestDragon | http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Measurement/Dial-Gauges-DTIs | 03:55 |
| fenn | heh thanks | 03:56 |
| AchiestDragon | you mount them where the cutter goes so the tips tuch part of the bed and at angles sutable for the axis you are trying to mesure | 03:57 |
| bkero | I have to OCR a 4.3GB tiff file :/ | 03:57 |
| bkero | Anybody have a badass ocropus setup? | 03:57 |
| kanzure | split her up first | 03:57 |
| bkero | I can't get ocropus to compile on anything except ubuntu :/ | 03:58 |
| fenn | so use ubuntu | 03:58 |
| AchiestDragon | move the machine though that axis and if its right there sould be no change on the dial ,, any change would be an error | 03:58 |
| fenn | sure that's the basis of the ball bar test | 03:58 |
| bkero | fenn: I don't have ubuntu installed on any big iron. Just my media centre for boxee. | 03:59 |
| fenn | so compile on ubuntu, copy libraries to big iron | 03:59 |
| fenn | or run vmware on big iron | 03:59 |
| bkero | vmware isn't suitable for big iron | 03:59 |
| fenn | boo | 03:59 |
| AchiestDragon | yea then put the machine frame under stress and test it again ,, also note any change while applying stress | 04:00 |
| fenn | 4.3GB single file? | 04:00 |
| bkero | Yes | 04:00 |
| fenn | bad hacker | 04:00 |
| bkero | It was an 800MB pdf | 04:00 |
| fenn | any particular reason you can't chop it up? | 04:00 |
| bkero | Scanned, no OCR, so it's just a giant set of pictures sewn together as a PDF | 04:00 |
| bkero | If I chop it up, then tesseract can't use common text analysis between the segments. | 04:00 |
| fenn | chop it up into horizontal strips | 04:01 |
| kanzure | dr. m.j.s leis, the E.U. transhumanism guy, recommended "gregor wolbring" http://www.bioethicsanddisability.org/ to me. he doesn't seem too interesting. | 04:01 |
| bkero | ocropus does that on it's own | 04:01 |
| fenn | hm nevermind i dont know how common text analysis works | 04:01 |
| bkero | THe size isn't the problem, just getting ocropus to work on something not ubuntu is the problem(It doesn't even compile on debian sid) | 04:01 |
| fenn | kanzure: also be sure to checkout http://lamesauce.donothing.org/ it's quite worthless | 04:01 |
| fenn | why should i have to invent badass prosthetic arms? why can't these people do it for themselves? | 04:03 |
| fenn | ffs it's not like they don't have the motivation | 04:03 |
| bkero | Most people can't do things for themselves | 04:03 |
| fenn | i've noticed | 04:04 |
| bkero | "I'm sick, someone else should tell me what's wrong and how to cure me." | 04:04 |
| fenn | but surely out of the 2 million amputees in the US one of them would have made some progress on this front by now | 04:04 |
| genehacker | yup | 04:05 |
| genehacker | one has | 04:05 |
| fenn | 360 million worldwide | 04:05 |
| fenn | dean kamen isn't an amputee btw | 04:05 |
| fenn | in case you were wondering | 04:05 |
| genehacker | built a set of pneumatic legs | 04:06 |
| fenn | <- grew up reading heinlein | 04:06 |
| bkero | Oh mister heinlein | 04:06 |
| genehacker | powered by a scuba cylinder | 04:06 |
| genehacker | problems prosthetics face: | 04:07 |
| genehacker | they have to go through lot's and lot's of cycles | 04:07 |
| genehacker | energy density sucks | 04:07 |
| fenn | whine whine whine | 04:07 |
| genehacker | we don't have any good artificial muscles | 04:07 |
| genehacker | these are the problems | 04:08 |
| fenn | what's wrong with airmuscles? | 04:08 |
| fenn | the problem is good cheap reliable proportional valves | 04:08 |
| genehacker | the hissing | 04:08 |
| fenn | omfg the hissing | 04:08 |
| genehacker | how many cycles can they go through before failing? | 04:08 |
| fenn | > 1 million, according to festo | 04:09 |
| genehacker | annoying air supply requirements | 04:09 |
| genehacker | hmmm.... | 04:09 |
| fenn | i think they would be easier to control with hydraulics in just about every respect, but apparently nobody has tried this? | 04:09 |
| fenn | hydraulic air muscle if that wasn't clear | 04:09 |
| genehacker | I forget the figure, but that is probably enough for a year | 04:09 |
| fenn | 1 year maintenance replacement is not unreasonable | 04:09 |
| genehacker | hmmm... | 04:09 |
| genehacker | yeah | 04:09 |
| kanzure | amputees sometimes have yearly refits | 04:10 |
| kanzure | stumps change, etc. shit happens | 04:10 |
| fenn | this tech apples to fembots/androids/whatever | 04:10 |
| fenn | so it's not just an isolated development | 04:10 |
| fenn | main issue is weight | 04:11 |
| fenn | anyway it doesn't seem so impossible to me, pretty straightforward in fact | 04:12 |
| fenn | people accomodate to their situation - i guess that's the main reason | 04:13 |
| fenn | but hell i want a bionic arm and both my arms work fine | 04:13 |
| genehacker | 2 million cycles per year is fine | 04:18 |
| genehacker | for prosthetics | 04:18 |
| fenn | the weight constraint is more important than reliability | 04:20 |
| genehacker | your arm breaks in the middle of the desert what do you do? | 04:20 |
| fenn | you die of thirst in the middle of the desert what do you do? | 04:20 |
| genehacker | I don't | 04:21 |
| * bkero dances the I'm the only person to ever get this OCR shit working on Gentoo dance. | 04:21 | |
| * fenn gives bkero a golden cookie | 04:21 | |
| genehacker | I harvest water from the ground | 04:21 |
| fenn | genehacker: ok so fix your arm | 04:21 |
| fenn | you did remember to bring spare parts right? | 04:21 |
| genehacker | it does that | 04:21 |
| fenn | bkero what are you ocr'ing? | 04:22 |
| bkero | fenn: Biology textbook | 04:23 |
| genehacker | hmmm... | 04:23 |
| genehacker | interesting | 04:23 |
| fenn | aha | 04:23 |
| bkero | kanzure: What's the link for your apache index of textbook PDFs? | 04:23 |
| fenn | http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/ | 04:23 |
| bkero | fenn: The book spine was cut with a razor, and they just scanned the damn pages, with no thought given to being able to highlight/search text. | 04:23 |
| fenn | but the upload is like 1kb/s so i don't know why he even bothers to keep it up | 04:24 |
| bkero | For small things it'd be fine, I was getting 40k up | 04:24 |
| bkero | But I can get faster with the torrent | 04:25 |
| fenn | oh you are uploading | 04:25 |
| fenn | ? | 04:25 |
| bkero | I have the pdf here at home, but I need it at work because that's where my desktop is right now. | 04:25 |
| * fenn agrees to not understand | 04:25 | |
| bkero | Yarr 8) | 04:26 |
| fenn | how long did it take to set up ocropus? | 04:26 |
| bkero | Two days | 04:26 |
| fenn | bleh | 04:26 |
| bkero | On ubuntu it takes about half an hour | 04:27 |
| fenn | ok good to know | 04:27 |
| bkero | THe instructions are on http://code.google.com/p/ocropus/ | 04:27 |
| bkero | Just the codeblock under "Releases" is all you need to do | 04:27 |
| fenn | i think i can handle that.. is using it more straightforward than tesseract? | 04:30 |
| fenn | i wonder why google books doesn't use hOCR | 04:32 |
| fenn | instead of that awful java crap | 04:33 |
| fenn | festo bionic arm if you haven't seen it yet http://www.festo.com/INetDomino/coorp_sites/en/ffeed49f2394ea43c12572b9006f7032.htm | 04:38 |
| fenn | there's a youtube around here somewhere | 04:40 |
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| drazak | I want a bionic arm to do my ocr for me | 06:32 |
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| drazak | does someone have a copy of EAGLE? | 06:41 |
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| katsmeow-afk | someone does | 08:35 |
| kanzure | i do but it will take you a decade to get it from me | 08:36 |
| genehacker | what? | 08:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | now | 08:39 |
| fenn | nevar! | 08:42 |
| genehacker | ok | 08:43 |
| katsmeow-afk | i hate it when a food i am eating makes Mt Dew explode in my mouf when i try to drink it | 08:44 |
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| fenn | don't drink and dive | 08:48 |
| katsmeow-afk | noted | 08:48 |
| kanzure | flamoot: it's generally a stupid idea to irc as root | 08:48 |
| genehacker | heh | 08:49 |
| fenn | i want to be a gargoyle when i grow up | 08:55 |
| katsmeow-afk | i think http://heybryan.org/books/Electronics/Inverter%20Construction%20Details.pdf is gonna get someone killed | 08:56 |
| katsmeow-afk | despite al the warnings in it that it canbe deadly | 08:56 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh, operating a relay to make 60hz switching | 08:57 |
| katsmeow-afk | at 120v and 100 amps | 08:57 |
| fenn | boo | 08:57 |
| fenn | m | 08:58 |
| fenn | ... | 08:58 |
| kanzure | fail | 08:58 |
| fenn | i changed my mind | 08:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | can you say noisey fireball | 08:58 |
| fenn | i can't imagine what you'd use a DIY 12kW inverter for | 08:59 |
| fenn | not at 60Hz at least | 08:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | i magine the battery pack needed from your local hardware store | 09:00 |
| katsmeow-afk | the book also makes no reference tween dc and peak vs rms of the ac | 09:00 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, the good news is at 1000amp draw, the batteries will last as long as the mechanical 60hz convertor | 09:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://www.lugatut.net/ ut linux users' group | 09:12 |
| kanzure | nevermind they suck | 09:16 |
| fenn | mechanical inverter is cute.. brushes are not exactly relays | 09:16 |
| fenn | wonder what a 'free energy motor' is | 09:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | roofing nails as 100 amp contacts? these guys didn't even consider how thin the heads are on those, there is no place on the head of a roofing nail that will support 100amps | 09:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | i bet at 100 amps, the rotor won't get up to 3600 rpm before there's no nail heads left, and the light show should not be looked at without a welding helmet | 09:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | so spin it up first, don helm, apply 100amp load | 09:20 |
| fenn | wow a homemade relay | 09:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, imagine that relay at 60 pulses/sec | 09:21 |
| fenn | if plan 576 doesn't work there's always 577 578 579 580 to try out | 09:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | conductive plasma arcs on all contacts <POOF> | 09:21 |
| fenn | if your house hasn't burned down by then that is | 09:21 |
| fenn | "these plans extensively tested 0 times" | 09:22 |
| fenn | maybe i should start selling random schematics on the internet i think just maybe might work | 09:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | 3000amp @ 80vdc shortcircuit = 1/4 megawatt | 09:22 |
| fenn | "build your own free energy jello clock!" | 09:23 |
| fenn | tesla@jelloenergysystems.net | 09:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | "power your house on $2.99 of Radio Shack magnets!" | 09:24 |
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| jonathan__ | UT's " 3 Day Startup " looks interesting, anyone have comment? | 09:57 |
| kanzure | i registered | 09:59 |
| kanzure | it turns out someone from our lab is running it | 09:59 |
| kanzure | i felt like an idiot when he reminded me that he sits behind me | 09:59 |
| fenn | except that nobody has ever seen the guy | 09:59 |
| kanzure | maybe he's a ninja | 09:59 |
| fenn | or a ghost pirate | 09:59 |
| kanzure | ninja ghost pirate? | 09:59 |
| fenn | maybe a zombie ninja ghost pirate - it would explain that odd smell | 10:00 |
| kanzure | this would be more useful if it actually gave the prices: http://www.mlanet.org/resources/publish/sc_2010-prices.html | 10:03 |
| fenn | "All journals now for low low price of $20.09!" | 10:08 |
| kanzure | what? | 10:09 |
| fenn | (per article, subject to plus or minus 4% sales tax) | 10:09 |
| fenn | i have no idea, sorry | 10:09 |
| jonathan__ | hm. 3 Day Startup is sponsored by vitamin water so how good could it be | 10:31 |
| fenn | better than nothing? | 10:33 |
| jonathan__ | lol | 10:35 |
| jonathan__ | "If you choose to accept membership, you will be asked to: Sign a Member Service Agreement outlining services you will receive and the quarterly fees you will pay" | 10:36 |
| jonathan__ | "Sign paperwork with the Entrepreneur's Foundation of Central Texas with noting the one-time mutually agreed upon equity donation benefitting The University of Texas at Austin" | 10:36 |
| jonathan__ | "Equity amount is negotiable and is structured as a donation to the Entrepreneurship Foundation of Central Texas" | 10:37 |
| jonathan__ | rule #1 : do not ever give up equity | 10:37 |
| kanzure | link? | 10:38 |
| jonathan__ | rule #2: only give up equity if you are metaphorically ready to purposely drop the soap & bend over pick it up. see rule #1 | 10:38 |
| jonathan__ | http://www.ati.utexas.edu/apply.htm | 10:38 |
| jonathan__ | also see the original 3 day startup email: "What's in it for you? An intense weekend and equal equity in the new | 10:39 |
| jonathan__ | > company. " | 10:39 |
| kanzure | hm. | 10:39 |
| kanzure | screw the weekend .. i just want to meet with the investors. | 10:39 |
| jonathan__ | investors will also love to take your equity | 10:40 |
| jonathan__ | luckily, s/w is very low manufaturing cost, so no need for excessive investor capital | 10:44 |
| kanzure | is $10k for a year to feed two programmers "excessive"? | 10:49 |
| AchiestDragon | what ,, 2 programmers for that ,, thats as bad as indian child labour rates | 10:51 |
| fenn | yep | 10:51 |
| fenn | probably about what indian child programmers make | 10:51 |
| AchiestDragon | would be looking at £40k to £60k gbp at least | 10:52 |
| AchiestDragon | each | 10:52 |
| kanzure | sorry we're talking about a startup | 10:52 |
| AchiestDragon | well still ,,, your probablay better getting the software written by contract than full time staff | 10:53 |
| jonathan__ | $10k in exchange for what? | 10:53 |
| kanzure | progress | 10:53 |
| jonathan__ | sure, they'll give you each $10k for 100% ownership of your IP if they believe the tech has market potential. then guess waht? you only made $10k | 10:53 |
| AchiestDragon | you have extra costs for insurance and would need worker insurance if there employed but not if there on contract | 10:54 |
| jonathan__ | your goal should be to self-fund yourself, retain 100% ownership, go to market | 10:54 |
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| kanzure | jonathan__: if you want to give me more than $10k, please go right ahead | 10:54 |
| fenn | kanzure: please don't sell my idea to sleazeball investors who will just ruin it | 10:54 |
| jonathan__ | I said "if they believe the tech has market potential" lol | 10:54 |
| fenn | there are plenty of stupid iphone ideas to go round | 10:55 |
| fenn | apparently that's what they want to hear anyway | 10:55 |
| jonathan__ | "market potential" has very specific business defiition = return on investment (ROI) > 300% within ~3-5 yrs tho timeline depends on the field | 10:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: don't worry.. no sleazeball investor wants to talk with me anyway. | 10:55 |
| kanzure | 300% on $10k is only $3 million | 10:56 |
| jonathan__ | iphone = easy money; low capital costs, high payout if successful | 10:56 |
| kanzure | no way in hell anyone has made more than $3 million on an iphone app sorry | 10:56 |
| kanzure | i think your numbers are off | 10:56 |
| jonathan__ | return on the business, not the product | 10:56 |
| AchiestDragon | well get your idea , make a presentation try to get mock ups of final product and do a presentation to investors to get the money to develop is one way ,,, dont forget to get the investors to sign a NDA first | 10:56 |
| fenn | 300% of 10k is 30k or 40k | 10:57 |
| kanzure | er wait | 10:57 |
| kanzure | why did i say 3 million? | 10:57 |
| fenn | that's 300x | 10:57 |
| kanzure | righto | 10:57 |
| kanzure | well | 10:57 |
| kanzure | so yeah, $40k isn't terrible | 10:57 |
| jonathan__ | a business is valued anywhre from 3x to 10x the yearly revenue , again depending on field | 10:57 |
| fenn | 'is valued'? | 10:58 |
| kanzure | what is it with you people and spaces around ,,,,,, your commas | 10:58 |
| jonathan__ | "is valued" = "the price at which it might be sold for as a working enterprise" | 10:58 |
| fenn | their markov chain parser can't handle commas as punctuation | 10:58 |
| kanzure | what if we don't want to sell? | 10:58 |
| jonathan__ | note dot coms valued at 100000x a zero revenue dont fit that model since they are not "working enterprise" anyway | 10:59 |
| fenn | this is precisely what i was trying to explain toyesterday | 10:59 |
| jonathan__ | who cares if you don't want to sell.. they already bought you with the $10k | 10:59 |
| fenn | but apparently there wasn't any valuation being done so it didnt matter | 10:59 |
| jonathan__ | don't follow the dot com model... it looks great in new york times that's all | 10:59 |
| fenn | i'm going to go back to my book before i decide to go buy a sniper rifle | 11:00 |
| jonathan__ | if they own 100% of you, then they'll just fire you and keep the tech, hire someone else as fast as possible. they own it. | 11:01 |
| AchiestDragon | fenn still think that paint ball gattling gun looks more fun | 11:01 |
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| AchiestDragon | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYAD3mdsOg&feature=related | 11:04 |
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| katsmeow-afk | M:\news\2009\September\29\Business\The Most Promising Young Co in America.htm | 11:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | Not that they all hailed from Silicon Valley: No. 1-ranked Vextec set up shop in leafy Brentwood, Tenn. | 11:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | Founded by the engineering trio Loren Nasser (age 49), Robert Tryon (50) and Animesh Dey (40), Vextec wields complex algorithms that predict, with scary accuracy, how and when components will fail--even before they're built. | 11:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | In 2000, Vextec snagged a $100,000 Small Business Innovation Research grant from the U.S. Air Force to model the performance of an array of turbine engine components made from titanium aluminide. Since then the company has raised nearly $20 million, mostly through similar grants awarded by various federal agencies. Nasser, Tryon and Dey still own 100% of the company, now with 28 employees. Vextec posted $3 million in sales in 2 | 11:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | javascript: void window.open('http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/16/americas-promising-companies-entrepreneurs-promising_slide.html?thisspeed=25000','Forbes.com', 'status=1, scrollbars=1, width=1000, height=800') | 11:46 |
| kanzure | talking with the #python guys isn't terrible | 12:03 |
| kanzure | i like this list: http://pyparsing.wikispaces.com/WhosUsingPyparsing | 12:08 |
| kanzure | heh zhpy | 12:08 |
| kanzure | aw they took a screenshot instead of just using unicode :( | 12:09 |
| kanzure | what's the point of unicode if you can't expecti t to reliably not fuck up? | 12:09 |
| kanzure | this one is neat too: http://pyparsing.wikispaces.com/WhosUsingPyparsing#freeode_siml | 12:10 |
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| fenn | what would be the point of a text based screenshot | 12:19 |
| kanzure | well maybe you just have a crappy non-unicode-compliant browser | 12:20 |
| genehacker | would that be a mobile phone? | 12:23 |
| fenn | it's mostly my choice of font i think | 12:27 |
| fenn | bitstream sans or freesans, i forget | 12:27 |
| kanzure | chemical formula parsing with pyparsing: http://pyparsing.wikispaces.com/file/view/chemicalFormulas.py | 12:34 |
| kanzure | http://pyparsing.wikispaces.com/file/view/simpleBool.py | 12:41 |
| kanzure | but how does it know which variables to expose? | 12:41 |
| kanzure | ah nevermind it's using eval | 13:02 |
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| fenn | civilization in a box http://pastebin.com/m2e93bff9 | 13:18 |
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| kanzure | dr. miriam's synthetic biology project in germany: http://www.itas.fzk.de/tatup/092/inhalt.htm | 14:33 |
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| kanzure | i've spent too many hours today trying to get pyparsing working | 19:09 |
| kanzure | it parses my strings into ["thing1", "and", "thing2"] which is wrong because "and" is supposed to be parsed into a BoolAnd object | 19:10 |
| kanzure | heh | 19:35 |
| kanzure | so, i'm writing this "singularity scavenger hunt" for people who are going to be at the singularity summit next week | 19:35 |
| kanzure | it involves them finding people at the summit | 19:35 |
| kanzure | but the trick is that i know who's going to be there, so i'm making this purposefully hard | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "find someone who is employed at or is a student at MIT who is not employed by the media lab" | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "find someone at least one degree away from RMS or ESR" | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "a cosplayer not in disguise" | 19:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | suck the "and" out before parsing? | 19:39 |
| kanzure | hm i seemed to have fixed that | 19:40 |
| kanzure | i should map vim's :w to automatic version control | 19:40 |
| kanzure | or its entire undo/redo buffer to version control | 19:40 |
| drazak | kanzure: do you know of anygood electronics google groups?or mailing lists? | 19:57 |
| * drazak fails at this typing thing | 19:57 | |
| kanzure | piclist | 20:06 |
| kanzure | ##electronics also doesn't completely suck | 20:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | that's debateable | 20:07 |
| katsmeow-afk | but i don't feel like it atm | 20:07 |
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| drazak | it sucks | 20:20 |
| drazak | :D | 20:20 |
| drazak | katsmeow-afk: you know I'm 17, right? | 20:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | err, no | 20:21 |
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| katsmeow-afk | you know i'm 53 and female, right? | 20:21 |
| drazak | I figured you were older, and had gathered the female part | 20:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | i don't mind, i can be as fair and helpful to you as you are to me :-) | 20:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | and, you have been | 20:22 |
| drazak | I have o.O | 20:22 |
| drazak | probably about biology shite | 20:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | i am interested in a lot of stuff | 20:23 |
| drazak | I've gathered | 20:23 |
| drazak | I've seen you in other channels | 20:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | even if i am not, i want my bot to be smarter than i am, at least have the data to be potentially smart | 20:23 |
| drazak | definitely defocus, or prior reincarnations | 20:23 |
| drazak | man, lilo was a hoot | 20:23 |
| * katsmeow-afk is making up another quicky webpage for #robotics atm | 20:24 | |
| drazak | I'm not big into robotics | 20:24 |
| drazak | how much of a bitch is a 16 pin tssop? | 20:25 |
| drazak | I've done other surface mount but no tssops | 20:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | not much, use a very fine soldering iron and .015 solder and you can do it | 20:25 |
| drazak | that's expensive solder | 20:26 |
| drazak | will .032 work? | 20:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | else, if you plan on doing more, use paste and hot air gun | 20:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | or a small oven | 20:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | you may be gobbing on more solder than you want and wiping it off | 20:26 |
| drazak | that's ok | 20:26 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 20:26 | |
| drazak | thats dealable, if I make this board at all | 20:27 |
| drazak | I've done SOIC stuff, dip, some resistors and caps | 20:27 |
| drazak | mostly 1206 | 20:27 |
| katsmeow-afk | praps you can get larger parts | 20:28 |
| drazak | nah, doesn't come in anything else | 20:28 |
| drazak | shouldn't be an issue though | 20:28 |
| drazak | it's an AD9835 | 20:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | sometimes for this stuff, you can have a board house make up soic or tpfq or etc adaptors, or buy them ready-made | 20:30 |
| drazak | nah, it should be fine | 20:31 |
| wrldpc2 | Bryan, are you attending SingSum? | 20:41 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:57 |
| kanzure | i need a place to sleep | 20:57 |
| kanzure | i work for free and don't suck | 20:57 |
| kanzure | do you have a couch? | 20:57 |
| drazak | http://www.iit.edu/~singsum/ this? | 21:00 |
| kanzure | no | 21:01 |
| kanzure | http://singularitysummit.com/ | 21:01 |
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| * ybit wants a list of technology or just cool scientific thingies | 23:52 | |
| ybit | http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/5-most-innovative-technologies-of-2007 | 23:52 |
| * ybit wants more than just 5, i want hundreds | 23:53 | |
| ybit | i want lists which contain in-vitro meat, meisner effect, particle accelerators, stuff that was discovered or invented the past 140 years or so | 23:55 |
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