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| kanzure | ybit: it's on the google group | 01:25 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | oh right, they're evil | 01:25 |
| kanzure | um | 01:25 |
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| fenn | this might explain why steve jackson was "turned off" towards computers and stuff (longish): http://pastebin.ca/1671193 | 09:18 |
| kanzure | hey how do you set stickybit? | 09:33 |
| fenn | you probably want setuid, not stickybit | 09:41 |
| fenn | chmod +t or +s | 09:42 |
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| ybit | was attempting to update skdb earlier... | 12:00 |
| ybit | error: Entry 'thirdparty/graphsynth.py' not uptodate. Cannot merge. | 12:00 |
| ybit | the solution isn't immediately obvious to me | 12:00 |
| fenn | you must have modified graphsynth.py | 12:06 |
| fenn | try 'git status' | 12:06 |
| fenn | or 'git reset thirdparty/graphsynth.py' | 12:07 |
| fenn | or maybe you need to push your changes | 12:08 |
| danielfalck | fenn: do you have a document that gives an overview of the project here? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb | 12:33 |
| danielfalck | kanzure: thanks- I should have looked at topic | 12:35 |
| kanzure | am very busy | 12:35 |
| ybit | git stash helps | 12:43 |
| ybit | there were changes to web.py, but they certainly aren't ready to be pushed | 12:44 |
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| fenn | kanzure: at some point please read http://www.paulgraham.com/head.html | 14:29 |
| fenn | we've been failing at #7 | 14:29 |
| fenn | (Don't have multiple people editing the same piece of code.) | 14:29 |
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| ybit | the recommended hotel's price has gone up | 16:08 |
| ybit | however, http://www.hotels.com/property.do?position=0&searchMtmPropertySupplierId=&propertyIdsToCompareString=&COMonth=12&PSRC=OT2&TSRC=1&numrooms=1&searchType=&usertypedcity=+Irvine%2C+CA&alternateSell=&acDestinationId=C05F04F7-EC8B-421C-B502-FE6419381D9F|65C29B93-B241-4EC8-8F1E-7830568B7EBE|Irvine%2C+CA%2C+USA|CITY&allPropertyTypesSelected=true&COYear=2009&CODay=7&paging=1&searchID=ABA8A1F3-89A2-3912-4F42-78DE8A90379C&CIYear=2009&mtnHotelID=281369&de | 16:09 |
| ybit | $50/night | 16:09 |
| ybit | jeremiah petit hasn't responded to my email from 4 days ago if he is still planning on going | 16:09 |
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| ybit | so, be looking at spending $20/night | 16:10 |
| ybit | oi tim__ | 16:10 |
| ybit | ~$80 total | 16:10 |
| ybit | iow, when i get to austin, you two owe me $160 | 16:11 |
| ybit | ..if that's the route ya want to go | 16:12 |
| ybit | fenn, kanzure | 16:12 |
| ybit | decided yesterday the site needs a redesign if it's going to be a wiki, been toying with hatta today | 16:14 |
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| ybit | http://ybit.ath.cx/images/website.png | 16:14 |
| ybit | hi tim_ | 16:14 |
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| fenn | wow jaque fresco is awesome.. i've never really looked into it | 17:55 |
| * fenn is watching "venus on the edge" http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30 | 17:58 | |
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| fenn | hello twish | 18:19 |
| fenn | how did you happen to be here? | 18:20 |
| twish | just surfing the web | 18:20 |
| twish | ended up here | 18:20 |
| twish | what is this place anyway? | 18:21 |
| fenn | a place to bounce ideas around, i guess | 18:22 |
| fenn | i am trying to bootstrap some of the automated manufacturing software necessary for stuff like the venus project | 18:22 |
| fenn | automated anarchism, basically | 18:24 |
| fenn | what topic were you surfing? | 18:25 |
| nsh | we vomit futures onto the table of technology and then draw funny pictures with a fork | 18:25 |
| fenn | body hacking? neuroscience? diy technology? futurism? | 18:26 |
| twish | accually i stubled on some forum posts about the zeitgeist movement | 18:26 |
| fenn | heh really? | 18:26 |
| fenn | please link | 18:26 |
| fenn | we dont talk about zeitgeist much | 18:27 |
| twish | https://www.flashback.info/showthread.php?t=761534 | 18:27 |
| * fenn is watching "venus on the edge" http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30 | 18:28 | |
| nsh | heh | 18:28 |
| nsh | google translate doesn't accept alternate ports | 18:29 |
| fenn | 101 pages in that thread? wtf? how does anyone find anything? | 18:29 |
| * nsh hates reading through massive old threads | 18:29 | |
| nsh | things like that should be progressively synopsised | 18:30 |
| nsh | then flattened | 18:30 |
| fenn | i am hopeful for wave's ability to condense stuff into published documents (with retained history) | 18:30 |
| twish | hehe , well the unemplyment is high in sweden. maybe thats something to do | 18:30 |
| * nsh smiles | 18:30 | |
| nsh | where isn't it? | 18:30 |
| nsh | apparently Azerbaijan | 18:31 |
| fenn | a lot of this is the same stuff bucky fuller was saying with 'design science revolution' | 18:31 |
| nsh | where there is only 00.8% unemployment | 18:31 |
| nsh | can you elaborate, fenn? | 18:32 |
| twish | officially or for real? | 18:32 |
| nsh | dunno, source is CIA factbook via wikipedia | 18:32 |
| nsh | http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/07/15/which-countries-have-the-lowest-unemployment-rates/ says lowest two unemployment rates are in andorra and monaco | 18:32 |
| fenn | basic human needs like water, food, shelter | 18:32 |
| fenn | automation of factories and elimination of drudgery | 18:33 |
| fenn | use of science toward creation of wealth instead of 'illth' like bombs | 18:33 |
| fenn | s/science/technology/ | 18:33 |
| fenn | it's been a while so i can't just recite pages of text off the top of my head | 18:34 |
| * nsh nods | 18:34 | |
| nsh | too vague for my liking | 18:34 |
| nsh | if you're gonna plan for the future, you need charts, not just a compass | 18:34 |
| fenn | most people don't even know what the right direction is | 18:35 |
| nsh | true | 18:35 |
| nsh | but if you can tilt the landscape cleverly enough, they'll roll there whether they like it or not | 18:35 |
| nsh | this is fascinating: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uocp-pcz081109.php | 18:36 |
| nsh | (tl;dr - fungus turns ants into zombies with amazing precision, to make them die in a perfect place to infect more ants) | 18:37 |
| twish | yeah .. they covered that on BBC:s "planet earth" | 18:37 |
| fenn | actually the ants learned and drag the infected ants far away to die | 18:37 |
| nsh | wow | 18:37 |
| twish | that is really amazing | 18:38 |
| nsh | just think how cool it'll be watching an evolutionary battle like that | 18:38 |
| nsh | sped up so it's like a chess game | 18:38 |
| fenn | there are lots of parasites like that; ie. a caterpillar parasite that makes it crawl to the top of the leaf to be eaten by birds, then the bird gets infected and spread the spores in its feces | 18:38 |
| fenn | i bet there are human viruses like it too, something like the asherah virus in snow crash (makes you want to have unprotected sex or whatever) | 18:39 |
| nsh | virus designers should spend more time watching nature documentaries | 18:39 |
| nsh | or not... | 18:39 |
| fenn | "virus designers"? | 18:39 |
| nsh | people who write computer viruses, that is | 18:40 |
| nsh | or replicative code in general | 18:40 |
| fenn | i used to think maybe the HIV virus was designed by the government or whatever.. then i actually studied it at the codon level | 18:40 |
| nsh | what changed your mind? | 18:40 |
| fenn | it's way too subtle and hacky to be designed by a human | 18:40 |
| fenn | some protein genes even code forward and backward for different proteins | 18:41 |
| fenn | nfw that was created with 1970's computer tech | 18:41 |
| * nsh nods | 18:41 | |
| nsh | hmm | 18:42 |
| fenn | i love the bbc earth documentary | 18:42 |
| * nsh notes to watch it | 18:42 | |
| fenn | there is something called 'sunrise earth' which is just a solid hour of nothing happening in gorgeous locations | 18:42 |
| fenn | bbc earth is on youtube i think | 18:43 |
| nsh | nice | 18:44 |
| nsh | of course, nothing happening is very subjective to human perception | 18:44 |
| nsh | which is probably part of the point | 18:44 |
| nsh | second to the beauty | 18:45 |
| fenn | right, actually tons of detail is happening onscreen but it's impossible to describe | 18:45 |
| nsh | mmm | 18:46 |
| nsh | i wonder if it would seem really busy if you were raised to speak a language suited to that description | 18:47 |
| fenn | here is an 'episode summary' if you can stand to read it http://pastebin.ca/1671690 | 18:47 |
| fenn | (yes i wrote that) | 18:47 |
| nsh | heh, thanks :-) | 18:48 |
| fenn | that is 'playa moonset' or something like that | 18:48 |
| nsh | impressive recall... | 18:48 |
| fenn | i make a habit of writing down my dreams | 18:49 |
| fenn | felt similar | 18:49 |
| * nsh really needs to start doing that (again) | 18:49 | |
| nsh | the problem, at least for me, is that it's very hard to assess the fidelity of the recollection | 18:49 |
| nsh | i'm never sure what i'm remembering, and what i'm elaborating into the memory | 18:49 |
| nsh | which is ironic, because dreams are probably exactly that -- filling in the gaps between random activations | 18:50 |
| fenn | i guess | 18:52 |
| fenn | some dreams are much more coherent than others | 18:52 |
| nsh | yeah, there appears to be a spectrum of lucidity | 18:52 |
| nsh | (i wonder if there are gaps...) | 18:52 |
| nsh | it's plausible that with training, you could selectively attenuate different faculties | 18:53 |
| nsh | i wonder about the people who have had success with 360 degree vision, etc. | 18:54 |
| nsh | what's the geometry of that? | 18:55 |
| * fenn points at http://fennetic.net/dreams/ | 18:56 | |
| * nsh checks | 18:56 | |
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| fenn | man i don't even remember writing half of these | 18:57 |
| nsh | hah | 18:57 |
| nsh | http://fennetic.net/dreams/cornworm -- disturbing... | 18:57 |
| fenn | yeah that was a couple days ago | 18:58 |
| fenn | i should probably draw it before i forget | 18:58 |
| nsh | what do you use a CMM probe for? | 19:00 |
| fenn | making sure your part is machined to spec | 19:01 |
| fenn | is the bore perpendicular, is this edge 2.961 inches from the other | 19:01 |
| nsh | right | 19:01 |
| fenn | is there a dream about that? | 19:01 |
| nsh | you mention it in passing in http://fennetic.net/dreams/random | 19:02 |
| fenn | scotty turner really is a psycho and would ram a cement truck if it was in his way | 19:04 |
| nsh | always fun knowing people like that | 19:05 |
| genehacker | do you log all your dreams fenn? | 19:05 |
| nsh | heh, i cant imagine an ugly mushroom cloud | 19:06 |
| fenn | genehacker: no only when i am not distracted after waking up, and if the dream doesn't totally suck, and if i have the energy to write it down | 19:07 |
| fenn | so most of them don't make it | 19:07 |
| fenn | like today i had some dream about a bus being stopped because a power line was down, and having to hop off an escalator halfway to get to my math class | 19:08 |
| fenn | but i didn't feel like writing it down and forgot | 19:08 |
| genehacker | damn I think I had a pretty epic one | 19:08 |
| nsh | i wonder if there is are any good papers that go into why dream memories are so evanescent | 19:08 |
| fenn | because otherwise we'd go insane with positive feedback loops? | 19:10 |
| fenn | "i keep having a dream about last night's dream!" | 19:10 |
| nsh | good point | 19:11 |
| genehacker | well there's a theory that we aren't getting enough sleep | 19:11 |
| nsh | i should have said "how" rather than "why" | 19:11 |
| genehacker | and that the real amount is 14 hours not 8 hours | 19:12 |
| nsh | heh | 19:12 |
| fenn | 'the real amount'? | 19:12 |
| genehacker | yeah | 19:12 |
| fenn | why don't you just sleep whenever you want to? | 19:12 |
| fenn | ffs what is wrong with everyone | 19:12 |
| nsh | jobs and education and crap | 19:13 |
| * nsh muses | 19:13 | |
| genehacker | people in a study that forced people into the same circadian rhythms that would be experienced before artificial lighting reported experiencing some pretty damn vivid dreams | 19:13 |
| fenn | i experienced some pretty damn vivid dreams after eating (not unreasonably) large amounts of unfiltered red palm oil | 19:14 |
| nsh | artificial light probably wreaks havoc with melanin levels | 19:14 |
| nsh | hmm | 19:14 |
| genehacker | dammit let me find the source | 19:15 |
| fenn | i think i am immune to light, unfortunately | 19:15 |
| genehacker | anyway we don't really have time for this sort of thing | 19:15 |
| genehacker | it'd slow things down a lot | 19:15 |
| nsh | meh, most of the economy is busywork | 19:15 |
| fenn | we don't have time to sleep? | 19:16 |
| genehacker | which is why we should replace people with robots | 19:16 |
| fenn | what is the point of living? | 19:16 |
| genehacker | I don't | 19:16 |
| fenn | right well, i suppose your robots won't have enough time to defrag their hard disk or whatever either | 19:16 |
| fenn | and then everything will happen instantly and it will be the end of the universe | 19:17 |
| fenn | oh sorry i left out the bit where they invent a time machine | 19:17 |
| genehacker | we'll just go to another one | 19:17 |
| nsh | i had a strange idea the other day | 19:18 |
| nsh | i was thinking about things happening in one time having "ripple down" effects on events in another time | 19:18 |
| genehacker | or survive until the next big bang occurs | 19:18 |
| nsh | like how we imagine it works when you go back in time and change something | 19:19 |
| genehacker | look up closed timelike curves | 19:19 |
| nsh | the future gets rewritten | 19:19 |
| nsh | then i thought, what if all times are happening simultaneously | 19:19 |
| nsh | like the hilbert hotel | 19:19 |
| nsh | but each room is a "now", say for example, 2009, 2008, 2007 (but really it'd be continuous) | 19:20 |
| nsh | and what's going on in the '09 earth can affect (on some archetypal level) events in the '07 earth, etc. | 19:20 |
| fenn | you mean we only experience one causal domain? | 19:20 |
| nsh | right, but with a continua of 'present's for each moment in what we understand as linear time | 19:21 |
| fenn | but many could be happening (i.e. future prime 21789 where the polar bear decided to go left this time) | 19:21 |
| genehacker | arrow of time paradox has been resolved | 19:21 |
| nsh | kinda like how phil dick thought the present day was actually 32ad | 19:21 |
| genehacker | it's because we can't see negative entropic events | 19:21 |
| nsh | but it's really "everywhen" | 19:21 |
| fenn | nsh did you ever read Anathem? | 19:21 |
| nsh | i don't think so | 19:22 |
| fenn | there is something like that, funny games with causality between different universes | 19:22 |
| genehacker | you read anathem? | 19:22 |
| * nsh hoovers it up from undernet | 19:22 | |
| fenn | i can post a text file, onemoment | 19:22 |
| genehacker | have you read snow crash and diamond age? | 19:22 |
| fenn | bmy upload is so slow | 19:23 |
| nsh | it's alright, fenn, html version 5.0 on its way | 19:23 |
| fenn | ok nevermind then | 19:23 |
| nsh | undernet#bookz is really good for sci-fi | 19:23 |
| fenn | is that where it is now? is majecki there? | 19:24 |
| nsh | yeah | 19:24 |
| fenn | cool | 19:24 |
| nsh | (though not at the moment, it seems. but definitely a little while back) | 19:24 |
| genehacker | you did read snow crash right? | 19:24 |
| fenn | yes | 19:25 |
| genehacker | good | 19:25 |
| * nsh might just do a stephenson month for december | 19:25 | |
| fenn | lately i only seem to enjoy scifi written after 2000 | 19:26 |
| nsh | yeah, i've been noticing that effect with a lot of things i research | 19:26 |
| nsh | it's like i'm subconsciously jettisoning the last millenia | 19:26 |
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| nsh | which is risky, because a lot things get left behind | 19:27 |
| nsh | though i'd guess nowadays the proportion is diminishing | 19:27 |
| fenn | 'ventus' by karl schroeder is good: http://www.kschroeder.com/my-books/ventus/free-ebook-version | 19:27 |
| nsh | probably exponential, as everyone's writing about everything | 19:27 |
| nsh | i'm reading Vellum, by Hal Duncan | 19:28 |
| nsh | it's tough work, but pretty beautiful at points, which a strong premise | 19:28 |
| nsh | *with | 19:28 |
| nsh | (and also what inspired that simultaneous timelines idea above) | 19:28 |
| fenn | genehacker: if you've read both of them: http://fennetic.net/misc/diamond_age_vs_golden_compass | 19:33 |
| genehacker | hahaha | 19:35 |
| genehacker | never read golden compass though | 19:36 |
| genehacker | diamond age makes a heck of a lot more sense | 19:36 |
| fenn | they are practically the same book | 19:36 |
| genehacker | what about the matter compilers? | 19:36 |
| genehacker | I'm pretty sure golden compass doesn't have that | 19:36 |
| fenn | no, they don't really explain where stuff comes from | 19:37 |
| genehacker | so most nanoscientists don't either | 19:39 |
| fenn | god did it | 19:42 |
| genehacker | what about the industrial espionage stuff and references to fu manchu style victorian literature? | 19:43 |
| genehacker | don't really care though | 19:46 |
| fenn | there's lots of victorian stuff | 19:51 |
| fenn | fresco's buildings remind me of the desals in Ventus | 20:08 |
| fenn | (not like anybody cares) | 20:08 |
| genehacker | the venus project guy? | 20:10 |
| fenn | yeah. i guess you came in right after that conversation | 20:10 |
| fenn | quitter | 20:10 |
| genehacker | huh? | 20:10 |
| * fenn lurks | 20:10 | |
| genehacker | venus is project looks cool and that's all it is | 20:11 |
| genehacker | no proposed way to get there | 20:11 |
| fenn | it's not about architecture, if you listen to him talk | 20:11 |
| genehacker | ugh | 20:12 |
| genehacker | his talks circulate the internet like viruses | 20:12 |
| fenn | it's about doing a do-ocracy, and basing your decision making processes on a rational basis and for the good of humanity, instead of money | 20:12 |
| fenn | you haven't even watched any have you> | 20:12 |
| genehacker | watched one | 20:13 |
| * fenn is watching http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30 | 20:13 | |
| * fenn apologizes for spamming the url | 20:13 | |
| genehacker | his followers could be useful to us | 20:13 |
| fenn | he doesn't have 'followers' not really | 20:14 |
| genehacker | I should have known | 20:14 |
| fenn | he'll be dead soon anyway | 20:14 |
| genehacker | the zeitgeist movement | 20:14 |
| fenn | plz ignore the awful intro to that tv show | 20:14 |
| fenn | zeitgeist is the community around venus project | 20:15 |
| fenn | 'wtf am i supposed to do' basically | 20:15 |
| genehacker | we might be able to wrangle some of his follwers into working for us | 20:15 |
| genehacker | oh | 20:15 |
| fenn | sure | 20:15 |
| fenn | 'the venus project' is a terrible name | 20:15 |
| genehacker | if you can set up a site for them to work that won't be associable with skdb then I can beign the wrangling process | 20:16 |
| fenn | skdb is one of the enabling technologies, why should it be separate? | 20:16 |
| genehacker | so people don't muck it up | 20:16 |
| fenn | bryan is doing a good enough job already _-_ | 20:17 |
| genehacker | no | 20:17 |
| genehacker | when you have something online that lots of people can edit/post to | 20:18 |
| fenn | yes i understand | 20:18 |
| genehacker | eventually someone will try to break it or worse | 20:18 |
| fenn | this is what branches are for | 20:18 |
| genehacker | branches | 20:19 |
| fenn | alternate versions | 20:19 |
| genehacker | anyway how do I write comments in .yaml? | 20:19 |
| fenn | anyway there will be a "official repository" with cherrypicked changes | 20:19 |
| fenn | # mark does comments | 20:19 |
| genehacker | ok | 20:20 |
| fenn | skdb can work with or without VP; but it can't work without something like skdb | 20:20 |
| fenn | afaik nobody else is seriously working on anything similar | 20:20 |
| fenn | except maybe smari | 20:20 |
| fenn | hell even i haven't touched it in 2 months | 20:21 |
| genehacker | I found some good techno so I'm in work mode | 20:21 |
| fenn | i find music makes it hard to concentrate enough to write good code | 20:21 |
| fenn | your process descriptions are too incomplete | 20:22 |
| genehacker | how so? | 20:22 |
| fenn | like wiredrawing.yaml doesn't have any tolerance specifications or surface finish or or or | 20:22 |
| genehacker | I couldn't find it in my book | 20:22 |
| fenn | um.. i forget where it went | 20:23 |
| fenn | processes should have these as a minimum template: !process | 20:23 |
| fenn | name: | 20:23 |
| fenn | classification: | 20:23 |
| fenn | mechanism: | 20:23 |
| fenn | geometry: | 20:23 |
| fenn | tolerance: | 20:23 |
| fenn | surface finish: | 20:23 |
| fenn | consumables: | 20:23 |
| fenn | functionality: | 20:23 |
| fenn | parameters: | 20:23 |
| fenn | safety: | 20:23 |
| genehacker | wiredrawing.yaml helped me on a quiz | 20:24 |
| fenn | good | 20:24 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how to automagically turn plain-text equations into functions | 20:25 |
| genehacker | I'm not sure either | 20:25 |
| fenn | right now i'm doing this thing with string substitute and then feed the constructed string to units, but that requires me to label all the variables and then stuff them | 20:25 |
| fenn | i gues this would be some sort of 'factory class' | 20:26 |
| genehacker | it'd also be better if I were to write the exact format the equations came in | 20:26 |
| fenn | existing formats are probably going to be wrong | 20:26 |
| fenn | all we need is something a regex can understand anyway | 20:27 |
| genehacker | because it allows you to connect the equations with other equations for different similar processes | 20:27 |
| fenn | hmm | 20:27 |
| genehacker | there are certain relations that can be used among different deformation processes and stuff | 20:27 |
| fenn | i think it's going to end up more complicated than that | 20:28 |
| genehacker | let me send you an example | 20:28 |
| fenn | everyone wants to use 'x' or 'gamma' too | 20:28 |
| genehacker | IE my deformation processes equation cheat sheet | 20:28 |
| fenn | i'm sure those scratchy hieroglyphics mean something to you | 20:28 |
| fenn | but the important thing is to hook it into the rest of the code | 20:29 |
| fenn | make the tacit knowledge explicit | 20:29 |
| fenn | math hieroglyphics seems obvious to people who have been reading it constantly for years but there are a lot of ambiguities | 20:29 |
| fenn | it doesn't have to be RDF but some kind of formalized explanation of th terms is required | 20:30 |
| fenn | that's why i have a whole section for parameters | 20:30 |
| genehacker | also many of these equations used are empirical relations | 20:30 |
| genehacker | used to simplify things | 20:30 |
| fenn | like somefunkyconstant*area? | 20:30 |
| fenn | i dont understand how it could not be empirical | 20:31 |
| fenn | unless it's a design rule or something, like 'metric screws come in these sizes' | 20:31 |
| genehacker | you could use integrals to find true pressure on rolling | 20:31 |
| genehacker | but most of the time you don't need to | 20:31 |
| fenn | really? | 20:32 |
| genehacker | yeah | 20:32 |
| fenn | i mean you can calculate the exact force required? | 20:32 |
| genehacker | I guess | 20:32 |
| genehacker | you don't need to I think | 20:32 |
| fenn | i'm mostly going to do curve fitting to table values anyway | 20:33 |
| fenn | unless there is an obvious exact solution from first principles | 20:33 |
| genehacker | figure out how to extract values from a graph and I'll give you a cookie | 20:33 |
| genehacker | there are some relations that need data from graphs | 20:33 |
| fenn | mechanical turk :P | 20:33 |
| fenn | seriously machinery's handbook has just about everything in tables | 20:34 |
| genehacker | everything | 20:34 |
| genehacker | does it have Q_a for cylindrical upsetting? | 20:34 |
| fenn | i don't know what your stupid letters mean | 20:35 |
| genehacker | average pressure for upsetting of a cylinder | 20:35 |
| fenn | but probably | 20:35 |
| fenn | i dunno, look it up; do you have a copy? | 20:35 |
| fenn | if you have access to adl.serveftp.org it's in /home/bryan/papers/machinery_handbook/ | 20:37 |
| fenn | 34MB | 20:37 |
| katsmeow | it's a good book | 20:39 |
| fenn | 'the machinist bible' | 20:39 |
| fenn | pray to it five times a day facing the deckel mill | 20:40 |
| fenn | (is my ignorance showing?) | 20:40 |
| genehacker | could you give me a link to it? | 20:41 |
| genehacker | is it as thick as a bible? | 20:41 |
| katsmeow | not in bytes | 20:41 |
| genehacker | if so I want to get a hardcopy | 20:41 |
| genehacker | and use it to preach/troll the crazy people who preach on campus | 20:42 |
| fenn | genehacker: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/machinery_handbook/ | 20:43 |
| fenn | there is a condensed version that is bible sized | 20:43 |
| * nsh wonders what 34mb weighs | 20:46 | |
| nsh | (at minimum) | 20:46 |
| genehacker | I already found it | 20:46 |
| nsh | there was some article i read one about the minimum energy required to change one bit. i think the conclusion was that a super-efficient computer would be something like a star | 20:47 |
| fenn | was that anders wallin? | 20:47 |
| genehacker | anyway doesn't look like it has much in the way of deformation processes | 20:47 |
| fenn | erm. anders sandberg? | 20:47 |
| fenn | (too any anderses) | 20:47 |
| * nsh couldn't say, sorry | 20:48 | |
| nsh | i think it was in a semi-popular science magazine. perhaps UK new scientist | 20:48 |
| fenn | this doesn't seem right | 20:48 |
| fenn | Hardcover: 2704 pages Shipping Weight: 2.6 pounds | 20:48 |
| genehacker | haha | 20:49 |
| genehacker | meh | 20:49 |
| fenn | a lot of those 34MB is graphs and diagrams | 20:49 |
| nsh | 34Mb of just text would be a very long book | 20:50 |
| genehacker | I think I like Introduction to Manufacturing Processes by John A. Schey, THE GREAT PROPHET OF MANUFACTURING | 20:50 |
| fenn | pages and pages of random numbers perhaps | 20:50 |
| genehacker | I am disappoint | 20:51 |
| genehacker | it doesn't have bending limit relations that can be used for anything | 20:51 |
| genehacker | just some tables of numbers for like 3 different metals | 20:51 |
| fenn | genehacker: no actually that would be Henry Maudslay | 20:52 |
| nsh | In [2]: 7.66 * 823156 / 1024 / 1024 | 20:52 |
| nsh | Out[2]: 6.0132741546630859 | 20:52 |
| fenn | relevance? | 20:53 |
| genehacker | ok | 20:53 |
| nsh | (average word length of king james bible times number of words in king james bible, in megabytes) | 20:53 |
| nsh | so 34Mb would be about 6 bibles | 20:53 |
| fenn | the pdf's are compressed | 20:53 |
| nsh | ah | 20:53 |
| nsh | i was thinking that was a bit low | 20:53 |
| fenn | pdf's are stupidly inefficient usually though | 20:54 |
| nsh | i've always wondered about that | 20:55 |
| fenn | i think it specifies the position of each line or text or something | 20:55 |
| genehacker | ok | 20:55 |
| nsh | lzma is probably best for text | 20:55 |
| genehacker | machinery handbook is awesome | 20:55 |
| nsh | not sure about images in pdfs | 20:55 |
| fenn | lzma is the .gz algorithm? | 20:56 |
| nsh | iirc yeah | 20:56 |
| nsh | no, wait | 20:56 |
| fenn | .bz2 is better and supposedly .rar is even better (but i dont see much difference) | 20:56 |
| nsh | gzip uses DEFLATE | 20:57 |
| genehacker | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Machinerysencyclopedia.jpg | 20:57 |
| fenn | and there is some other algorithm which isn't used much in practice because it takes too much ram | 20:57 |
| genehacker | it's not a handbook | 20:57 |
| fenn | "Gzip reduces the size of the named files using Lempel-Ziv coding" | 20:57 |
| fenn | "As of 2008, the most popular LZ77 based compression method is called DEFLATE; it combines LZ77 with Huffman coding." | 21:00 |
| fenn | so it's all the same thing | 21:00 |
| fenn | kind of disgusting people are still using software from 1977 | 21:00 |
| nsh | http://odzangba.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/gzip-vs-bzip2-vs-lzma/ | 21:01 |
| nsh | lzma is Limpel-Ziv with markov chains | 21:01 |
| fenn | is it different from lz77? | 21:01 |
| nsh | yeah, it's 1998 onwards | 21:02 |
| nsh | that last link puts it between gzip and bz2 in both time and compression ratio | 21:02 |
| fenn | well that's useless | 21:02 |
| fenn | he's compressing a bunch of zeroes? | 21:03 |
| nsh | yeah, i didn't see the point of that either | 21:03 |
| nsh | more sensible tests follow | 21:03 |
| fenn | hardly | 21:05 |
| fenn | compressing a .avi is stupid | 21:05 |
| fenn | you save <1% | 21:06 |
| * nsh nods | 21:06 | |
| nsh | do you say "dot a v i"? | 21:06 |
| fenn | yes | 21:06 |
| nsh | suppose that makes sense | 21:06 |
| nsh | i'd just say "an a v i" | 21:07 |
| nsh | perhaps i revise that. | 21:07 |
| nsh | actually, that's because i'd append "file" | 21:07 |
| nsh | i think i would prefix with 'dot' if i didn't. | 21:07 |
| nsh | (trivum, sorry) | 21:08 |
| genehacker | a prospect mind has been found, evaluation process has begun | 21:26 |
| fenn | i think the equation wrangling would be done something like this http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Python_Programming/MetaClasses | 21:27 |
| genehacker | ok | 21:27 |
| genehacker | so do my yaml's have worth or should I discontinue making them? | 21:28 |
| fenn | i don't know | 21:28 |
| fenn | honestly this is all turning out to be a lot harder than expected | 21:29 |
| fenn | data entry takes forever and still dont eve know what the right format is | 21:29 |
| fenn | so if you can enter good data that would help | 21:29 |
| fenn | but i will have to recombobulate the data at some point so the more there is, the harder that will be | 21:30 |
| fenn | hopefully easier than typing it in manually though | 21:30 |
| fenn | the big problem is when you have concepts that are not semantically equivalent | 21:30 |
| fenn | like 'machinability' | 21:31 |
| fenn | god damn subjective crap | 21:31 |
| genehacker | machinability | 21:31 |
| genehacker | there's a way to quantify that I think | 21:31 |
| fenn | in what units | 21:31 |
| fenn | it's always relative | 21:31 |
| genehacker | meters | 21:31 |
| fenn | even material hardness is a clusterfuck | 21:32 |
| genehacker | haha | 21:32 |
| genehacker | oh I know | 21:32 |
| genehacker | letters | 21:32 |
| fenn | all these different scales, none of them with easy conversion factors | 21:32 |
| genehacker | A, B, C, D | 21:32 |
| genehacker | let me check my notes | 21:32 |
| genehacker | machinability has something to do with chip length | 21:32 |
| fenn | the scales are basically just empirical test procedures | 21:32 |
| fenn | machinability is a lot of factors | 21:32 |
| fenn | hardness, chip length, built up edge, toughness, heat dissipation | 21:33 |
| genehacker | ok listening to a jaque fresco thing | 21:33 |
| fenn | built up edge has something to do with the chemical interaction with the tool material | 21:33 |
| genehacker | tool life can be estimated with a simple formula | 21:34 |
| fenn | bah | 21:35 |
| fenn | you and your simple formulas | 21:35 |
| genehacker | there | 21:35 |
| genehacker | is a better one though | 21:35 |
| fenn | there are a lot of factors that go into tool life; a simple formula can't express that | 21:35 |
| fenn | it includes: thermal shock, number of heating/cooling cycles, tool surface finish, cutting forces, resonance phenomena, and on and on | 21:36 |
| genehacker | it depends on how accurate you want to estimate tool life too | 21:36 |
| fenn | it almost doesn't matter, it's so easy to break a tool with any one of those | 21:37 |
| genehacker | are we trying to make a high speed machining center | 21:37 |
| fenn | i just want the estimate to be right | 21:37 |
| genehacker | because that's only where it matters | 21:37 |
| fenn | bullshit | 21:37 |
| fenn | chatter will destroy a tool at any speed | 21:38 |
| fenn | high carbon steel with carbide cutters and water based coolant will destroy a bit | 21:38 |
| fenn | HSM is just a strategy | 21:39 |
| fenn | it's not even a well defined term | 21:39 |
| genehacker | I think I'm going to go away and read the section of my materials processing book on machining | 21:39 |
| fenn | i consider it machine accelerations > 1g | 21:39 |
| genehacker | surface finish is also not a very well defined term | 21:39 |
| fenn | i guess | 21:39 |
| genehacker | no | 21:39 |
| fenn | there are ways to define surface finish mathematically | 21:40 |
| fenn | but sometimes it just means 'aesthetics' you're right | 21:40 |
| genehacker | how? | 21:40 |
| genehacker | no I'm talking about the different ways to quantify it | 21:40 |
| fenn | well.. one way would be a frequency spectrum (in the position domain) | 21:40 |
| fenn | often they just assume a single frequency and give the RMS amplitude | 21:41 |
| -!- mason_l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 21:41 | |
| genehacker | ok | 21:41 |
| genehacker | that's what I'm talking about | 21:41 |
| fenn | is it amplitude or wavelength? i dunno | 21:41 |
| fenn | must be amplitude | 21:42 |
| fenn | i'm kind of annoyed they don't provide the error rates in different dimensions (i.e. radius vs length on a lathe) but i wouldn't know how to generically describe that anyway | 21:43 |
| -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 21:43 | |
| fenn | something like GD&T but i also need to be able to apply that to some kind of geometry description language | 21:43 |
| fenn | um.. like 'a bandsaw always cuts perpendicular to the sliding surface and has moves with a minimum radius' | 21:44 |
| fenn | then you have tolerance wrt the path deviation, squareness, isotropic surface finish etc | 21:45 |
| katsmeow | well, dependng on how square the teeth are sharpened, etc | 21:45 |
| fenn | but there exists no general geometry description for stuff like 'this is perpendicular to that' | 21:45 |
| fenn | katsmeow: yes and you use various parameters in your equations | 21:45 |
| katsmeow | and i have seen bands with all the wave on one side | 21:46 |
| fenn | cuts? or saw blades? | 21:46 |
| katsmeow | bandsaw blades | 21:46 |
| fenn | seems like that would rub on the side with no wave | 21:46 |
| katsmeow | the cheaper the chinese blade, the more likely you get anomolies | 21:47 |
| fenn | dont use cheap blades :P | 21:47 |
| katsmeow | yeas, i threw it out | 21:47 |
| fenn | i wish i had experienced an "expensive" $5 tap before i tortured myself with cheap taps | 21:48 |
| fenn | hint: hardware store taps may be expensive but they still suck | 21:48 |
| fenn | it was even a "good old boy" hardware store :( | 21:48 |
| katsmeow | i had one blade, the teeth were offset ay the weld, so the first pass broke off one tooth, the next pass broke off the 2nd, till i had an inch of blade ith no teth real fast, tossed that one too | 21:49 |
| katsmeow | hardware stores in general are to make money off retail customers, nothing else | 21:49 |
| fenn | you can't generally buy individual bolts from catalogs | 21:50 |
| katsmeow | i asked Fastenal to make a bid on some 1 gallon paint, they bid $70, it was at Home Depot for $28, and i paid $15 for it | 21:50 |
| katsmeow | same for a chemical i wanted, same price spread | 21:51 |
| katsmeow | and i wasn't buying a gallon, i bought 34 gallons | 21:51 |
| fenn | fastenal is for other peoples' money | 21:51 |
| katsmeow | and another 15 of roofing "paint" | 21:51 |
| katsmeow | yeas, but they do have the bearings, drillbit, bolts i want *in stock* locally | 21:52 |
| -!- mason_l is now known as mason-l | 21:54 | |
| ybit | check out 1:10:28 - 1:1302 of http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261 it describes skdb | 22:29 |
| ybit | fenn: you helped in distracting me tonight :P | 22:30 |
| fenn | what is that video? | 22:30 |
| fenn | the dow human element thing? | 22:30 |
| ybit | the venis project introduction/overview | 22:30 |
| ybit | venus* | 22:30 |
| ybit | something like seasteading.org would be appropriate | 22:31 |
| ybit | and public moon establishments/settlements | 22:31 |
| ybit | anywhere that new forms of society can be constructed | 22:32 |
| fenn | seasteading is too hard to get started with no existing community.. see luf for example | 22:33 |
| fenn | 'integration of all known knowledge' makes it sound so easy :( | 22:35 |
| fenn | this guy sounds like a computer | 22:37 |
| ybit | 1:15:26 - 1:16:43 mentions their view of how to utilize a database system of knowledge | 22:39 |
| fenn | a database doesn't analzye :( | 22:40 |
| fenn | i dont like how he never discusses decision making processes | 22:41 |
| genehacker | the austrailia project bears resemblence to the venus project, coincidence? I think not | 22:42 |
| kanzure | so is this 3daystartup or 3daywankery? | 22:43 |
| kanzure | man | 22:43 |
| genehacker | having fun? | 22:44 |
| kanzure | not really | 22:44 |
| genehacker | how so? | 22:45 |
| genehacker | what progress have you made so far? | 22:49 |
| katsmeow | ybit, is seasteading.org going to DO anything? | 22:49 |
| genehacker | have you talked to any gene synthesis companies? | 22:49 |
| ybit | genehacker: they weren't able to understand the importance of it | 22:51 |
| ybit | or its relevance to making $ | 22:52 |
| ybit | katsmeow: i don't know, i haven't looked into it yet | 22:52 |
| katsmeow | o | 22:52 |
| katsmeow | over the years they have cranked ot a lot of webpages, but zero hardware | 22:53 |
| genehacker | as expected | 22:53 |
| genehacker | it's run by business people doing important business things | 22:53 |
| ybit | i just now brought it up, remembering that some speaker at the h+ summit was going to discuss it, so then i found the website and plan on viewing it later tonight | 22:53 |
| genehacker | create competition? who'd want to do that? | 22:54 |
| ybit | genehacker: yeah, i was thinking this is as well listening to jacque (or however you spell it) talk about | 22:54 |
| ybit | that's exactly what i was thinking | 22:54 |
| genehacker | heh | 22:54 |
| ybit | they need to remove that | 22:54 |
| ybit | er, was that referring to seasteading.org or 3ds? | 22:55 |
| * ybit was talking about the seasteading.org description | 22:55 | |
| ybit | competition in a future society doesn't make sense to me | 22:55 |
| genehacker | 3day start up | 22:56 |
| genehacker | oh | 22:56 |
| fenn | rawr why don't they have a 'download in > 120pixel resolution' button | 23:01 |
| kanzure | ybit: your server isn't on | 23:04 |
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