| --- Day changed Wed Dec 02 2009 | ||
| fenn | can i embed videos in openoffice powerpoint? | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | or animated gifs? | 00:04 |
| ybit | i'm going to guess yess | 00:15 |
| ybit | #openoffice ? | 00:15 |
| ybit | gots to love how the e key is stuck the first night, grr | 00:16 |
| kanzure | fenn: videos, yes. gifs i wouldn't expect to work | 00:18 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 00:29 | |
| fenn | anyone on windows? | 00:34 |
| fenn | could please verify if this works in $DEFAULT_WINDOWS_MOVIE_PLAYER? http://fennetic.net/irc/squirrel_tracker.flv | 00:35 |
| QuantumG | ya need third party software to play flvs on windoze. | 00:37 |
| genehacker2 | no | 00:37 |
| fenn | poop | 00:37 |
| genehacker2 | what is it? | 00:37 |
| fenn | well what codec does windows like? | 00:37 |
| QuantumG | plays for me in third party software | 00:37 |
| fenn | i dont trust anything to be installed | 00:38 |
| QuantumG | right, so make a wmv | 00:38 |
| fenn | i mean i dont expect it to be there when i need it | 00:38 |
| QuantumG | or an avi | 00:38 |
| fenn | so its just the format not the codec? | 00:38 |
| QuantumG | or an mpg | 00:38 |
| genehacker2 | http://xkcd.com/ | 00:39 |
| QuantumG | well the codec you used for flv is "flash video 1" .. so clearly that's not gunna be around :) | 00:39 |
| QuantumG | an mpg will play just about anywhere. | 00:39 |
| QuantumG | but if you really want peons to look at it, put it on youtube ;) | 00:40 |
| fenn | i want it in the powerpoint file | 00:40 |
| fenn | noboy said this was optimal | 00:40 |
| QuantumG | don't care about size? | 00:41 |
| genehacker2 | I think there's away to put .flv's in powerpoint | 00:42 |
| genehacker2 | no there isn't | 00:43 |
| genehacker2 | convert it to .avi | 00:43 |
| fenn | ok try again? http://fennetic.net/irc/squirrel_tracker.avi | 00:43 |
| * fenn notes that the conversion was done at 00:38 and the rest of the time was waiting for the upload to finish | 00:44 | |
| genehacker2 | no | 00:45 |
| genehacker2 | but supposedly you can put avi into powerpoint | 00:45 |
| fenn | "no" what? | 00:45 |
| genehacker2 | it doesn't work | 00:46 |
| fenn | rawr | 00:46 |
| genehacker2 | there's away to put youtube videos into powerpoint | 00:48 |
| genehacker2 | without any add ins | 00:48 |
| genehacker2 | http://jennylu.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/youtube-into-powerpoint-wikihow-has-advice/ | 00:49 |
| fenn | if only ssh were correct: 52% 2208KB 1.2MB/ | 00:52 |
| genehacker2 | you might be able to put a webpage on your usb drive that emulates youtube | 00:52 |
| fenn | um no thanks | 00:52 |
| genehacker2 | and have powerpoint open that | 00:52 |
| genehacker2 | just convert it to .swf | 00:53 |
| genehacker2 | or figure out a format that will play in excel | 00:55 |
| genehacker2 | *powerpoint | 00:55 |
| fenn | egad.. ronja has done a 170km free space optical link | 00:58 |
| fenn | all these ham call signs sound/look the same | 00:59 |
| fenn | what is the fucking point | 01:00 |
| fenn | ronja is showing movies of raytraced parts spinning http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/ | 01:12 |
| fenn | i love how they automatically include the calculated mass of the brick chimney | 01:15 |
| fenn | grr so jealous http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/hardware_1.png | 01:17 |
| fenn | units 'exp(1)' | 01:31 |
| fenn | Definition: 2.7182818 | 01:31 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 01:32 | |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 01:46 | |
| kanzure | hey jason | 01:46 |
| kanzure | still on for thursday? | 01:47 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] | 01:52 | |
| -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk | 01:54 | |
| -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 04:28 | |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 04:52 | |
| -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] | 05:17 | |
| -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 07:59 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 08:09 | |
| -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:12 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 09:13 | |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:36 | |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 09:51 | |
| -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 09:56 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:06 | |
| -!- Xeones [n=Xeones@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:16 | |
| -!- Xeones [n=Xeones@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #hplusroadmap [] | 10:16 | |
| -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:20 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 10:43 | |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/ | 10:50 |
| kanzure | hm it's snowing in dallas | 11:10 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:18 | |
| bkero | SNowing here soon | 12:30 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 12:45 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:07 | |
| CIA-33 | skdb: kanzure * r a59ae6c /doc/presentations/hplus-summit-2009/outline: an old outline for the h+ summit 2009 talk on how to make a civilization seed | 13:08 |
| kanzure | hm i keep forgetting how to set stickybit | 13:14 |
| CIA-33 | skdb: kanzure * r d140a12 /thirdparty/graphsynth.py: update graphsynth to work with gxml files without canvas objects | 13:23 |
| CIA-33 | skdb: kanzure * r d8e940d /thirdparty/graphsynth.py: fix graphsynth output for arcs | 13:39 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 14:07 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:19 | |
| fenn | do i know Chris Pearson? http://gingery.wordpress.com/ | 14:29 |
| fenn | hm or is it jessica ginger/charlesworth | 14:35 |
| CIA-33 | skdb: kanzure * r 83b1e90 /geom/geom.py: update geom.py to not complain when you load !part | 14:36 |
| fenn | hmm. "Just realised that being 30 is about just saying "yup I'm going back to California! no matter what!l How should/can I make it happen?" | 14:45 |
| fenn | maybe i have some sort of old-person virus | 14:46 |
| fenn | that makes me want to go to california | 14:46 |
| bkero | I would not like to go back to california. :( | 14:49 |
| fenn | you aren't 30 yet | 14:50 |
| fenn | kevin kelly is into lifelogging? http://www.meetup.com/quantifiedself/ | 14:52 |
| kanzure | steve keeps yapping about the "quantified self" people in california | 14:54 |
| fenn | "the Intellectual Implosion of Kevin Kelly" | 14:55 |
| kanzure | kk.org is why i know you | 14:56 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@216-54-230-114.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:57 | |
| kanzure | hey jason | 14:57 |
| kanzure | huh ddclient works for zoneedit | 15:02 |
| fenn | what's that some windows band-aid? | 15:05 |
| fenn | oh it's dyndns.. what was the firewall thing? zonealarm? | 15:06 |
| fenn | rofl http://kk.org/ct2/Socialven.jpg | 15:15 |
| kanzure | hi futuresoon | 15:38 |
| futuresoon | hey kanzure | 15:38 |
| futuresoon | i'm a drupal developer. that's what i do | 15:38 |
| kanzure | right, so, replab web stuff | 15:38 |
| futuresoon | right | 15:38 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure drupal is a good idea considering the code base we already have | 15:39 |
| futuresoon | it may be a stretch but, what about rdf? | 15:39 |
| kanzure | why not use what we have | 15:39 |
| futuresoon | well i still need to look at what you have | 15:39 |
| kanzure | :) | 15:39 |
| futuresoon | and i do agree it shouldn't be another instructables | 15:39 |
| futuresoon | it should actually progress the automation concept | 15:40 |
| kanzure | do you know about apt-get? | 15:40 |
| futuresoon | i use ubuntu | 15:40 |
| kanzure | skdb is apt-get 'cept for hardware | 15:40 |
| futuresoon | yeah i love the concept. i've been reading | 15:40 |
| kanzure | so, the server is a front-end to skdb | 15:40 |
| kanzure | (it's all crammed into web.py) | 15:40 |
| kanzure | it literally loads up opencascade and skdb in the background | 15:40 |
| kanzure | as python modules | 15:40 |
| kanzure | i stayed away from mod_php and mod_python for obvious reasons i hope | 15:41 |
| kanzure | reloading opencascade on each page request.. bad voodoo | 15:41 |
| futuresoon | i guess that rules out django? | 15:41 |
| kanzure | nope, django was a candidate IMHO | 15:41 |
| kanzure | but i tried it | 15:41 |
| kanzure | i was writing "djangit", a git wiki for django | 15:41 |
| kanzure | http://github.com/kanzure/djangit | 15:42 |
| kanzure | but i started to realize i hated django | 15:42 |
| kanzure | so now web.py is the main candidate i think | 15:42 |
| kanzure | er | 15:42 |
| kanzure | not web.py the library, but the code in skdb.git | 15:42 |
| kanzure | it runs off of cherrypy. basically you just drop in the skdb classes and it makes a web server out of them | 15:42 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/web/web.py | 15:42 |
| kanzure | http://cherrypy.org/ | 15:42 |
| futuresoon | i'm still learning python. drupal is my main jam. not sure how much help i'll be able to be | 15:43 |
| kanzure | it's pretty far along | 15:43 |
| kanzure | there's no paypal integration yet | 15:43 |
| futuresoon | yeah that's the type of thing drupal makes simple | 15:43 |
| kanzure | yes i'm sure it's simple | 15:43 |
| futuresoon | i see that the longer term roadmap for these types of things is in rdf? | 15:43 |
| kanzure | but i'm not so sure about using multiple platforms | 15:44 |
| kanzure | well not quite rdf. there's something we've been using called "yaml" | 15:44 |
| futuresoon | i think i read that at the oskamak wiki? | 15:44 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb-packages/screw/metadata.yaml | 15:44 |
| kanzure | oscomak is paul fernhout's attempt at convincing me to use rdf and his triples language :) | 15:44 |
| kanzure | but it's yet-another-data-storage-format | 15:44 |
| kanzure | yaml is for serializing objects into and out of memory, in a human-readable format | 15:45 |
| futuresoon | i see | 15:45 |
| kanzure | this is why i'm cautious about multiple platforms | 15:45 |
| kanzure | we should all speak the same languages | 15:45 |
| kanzure | drupal is great, and i was originally a php programmer guy | 15:45 |
| kanzure | (i was really turned off by phpnuke though. i guess i'm old) | 15:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: are you around? | 15:46 |
| kanzure | i need to hop a bus, and fenn is able to answer various dev questions in the mean time | 15:47 |
| fenn | ya | 15:47 |
| futuresoon | cool | 15:47 |
| fenn | i think drupal django and friends are too complicated and heavy | 15:47 |
| futuresoon | fenn: what about if drupal or whatever were just outputting yaml style metadata | 15:48 |
| fenn | that doesn't make any sense | 15:48 |
| fenn | drupal is a web framework | 15:48 |
| futuresoon | you're familiar with rdfa? | 15:48 |
| fenn | i know what rdf is, and considered using it (maybe i will) | 15:49 |
| fenn | i | 15:49 |
| fenn | i'm no rdf wizard though | 15:49 |
| futuresoon | well right there in the html markup of a drupal page could be rdf that a user generated by filling out forms | 15:49 |
| futuresoon | drupal 7 will output rdf automatically and drupal core will be better suited when drupal 7 comes out in general, but i've made queryable rdf triple stores in drupal 6 | 15:50 |
| fenn | what is the "a" in rdfa? | 15:50 |
| futuresoon | i forget | 15:50 |
| fenn | filling out forms is not practical | 15:51 |
| futuresoon | "in attributes" | 15:51 |
| fenn | the data is way too complex and non-standard to be worth making forms for people to fill out | 15:51 |
| fenn | this is why i didnt go with a relational database | 15:51 |
| fenn | they are focused on tables and data that is essentially similar | 15:51 |
| futuresoon | well i think the thinking was that it's easy to create and map forms to rdf when your'e doing it in drupal | 15:52 |
| fenn | people keep telling me to make a wizard that dummies can follow to create anything, but i just dont see it happening | 15:52 |
| futuresoon | so arbitrary data structures are less of a problem | 15:52 |
| futuresoon | that wizard is cck http://drupal.org/project/cck | 15:52 |
| futuresoon | or http://drupal.org/project/rdfcck | 15:53 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@216-54-230-114.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 15:53 | |
| -!- Netsplit zelazny.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: nsh, bct | 15:54 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: bct | 15:54 | |
| -!- nsh [i=sbp@59.176.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:54 | |
| fenn | ugh why can't they just link to the youtube url for these tutorial videos | 15:55 |
| futuresoon | i built this a couple days ago before i knew there were people on replab.org working already http://replab.sigmanode.com | 15:56 |
| futuresoon | it uses cck | 15:56 |
| futuresoon | to make autocomplete forms | 15:56 |
| fenn | that is what we pejoratively refer to as 'wiki bullshit' :) no offense | 15:57 |
| futuresoon | well if you map it to RDF is what i'm saying | 15:57 |
| futuresoon | anyway some of it depends the timeframe. a lot of this is going to come online better than it is now in a couple months whether anyone here works on it or not | 15:57 |
| futuresoon | afk | 16:05 |
| fenn | well i dont get it | 16:06 |
| -!- drazak_ [n=drazak@drazak.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:08 | |
| Utopiah | futuresoon: are you at http://openfarmtech.org/ ? | 16:08 |
| -!- drazak [n=drazak@drazak.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 16:09 | |
| fenn | i think the point everyone's been missing all along is that there's plenty of content out there, but it's all in terrible formats like plain text and images buried in some cms database | 16:11 |
| fenn | web forms like this just encourage lazy shoddy contributions i think | 16:12 |
| fenn | "look it displays without errors, i must have done it correctly" | 16:13 |
| futuresoon | fenn: i don't think everyone should be able to haphazardly enter it (unless the community of people who can do it grows fast enough that that's worthwhile) | 16:15 |
| futuresoon | but it does seem to make sense that anybody should be able to use it, whether they're just reading instructions visually or not. more eyes makes for shallower bugs, that type of thing | 16:15 |
| futuresoon | Utopiah: i've been lurking/reading their weblog for a while, haven't posted | 16:16 |
| Utopiah | futuresoon: ok, but I mean you are not on-site | 16:16 |
| futuresoon | no | 16:16 |
| fenn | futuresoon: what's wrong with just letting users edit the rdf directly? (besides that its a visual clusterfuck) | 16:17 |
| futuresoon | the major problem with rdf unlike in yaml is that presumably a lot of the benefit in rdf eventually comes from using specific classes that not just anybody is going to know to input from examples. i mean i don't know how interoperable various yaml datasets ever get | 16:18 |
| fenn | how do you discover what the correct rdf class to use is? | 16:18 |
| futuresoon | this might be the type of thing that i should try and figure out what you guys have already done and whether there's even something i can envision in drupal/rdf that has any benefits---these are just general benefits i'm talking about in a general way | 16:19 |
| futuresoon | fenn: when someone implements an rdf ontology that you like, you just map all your existing data to it, or other people can take your data and do that | 16:19 |
| fenn | kanzure always talks about not "putting a gun to everyone's head" to make them use your ontology.. | 16:20 |
| futuresoon | i think that happened when google released their own ontology recently for people, products, etc.---the rdf community was like "that already exists" and just made their own mapping | 16:20 |
| futuresoon | fenn: absolutely | 16:20 |
| futuresoon | rdf is a multiplicity of worldviews on what's the best ontology | 16:20 |
| futuresoon | anyway, i wouldn't try to do a drupal rdf implementation other than as proof of concept before drupal 7 comes out in a few months anyway | 16:21 |
| futuresoon | i originally came to kanzure like "i'm a drupal dev. what can i do" | 16:21 |
| futuresoon | now i'm seeing rdf (from something i read on oscomak) looks promising here | 16:21 |
| fenn | heh | 16:21 |
| futuresoon | but the real first thing for me is to start seeing what is up in this project that you already have going | 16:21 |
| fenn | i keep telling paul to just use rdf, but he's stubborn because he invented it first, or something | 16:21 |
| futuresoon | heh | 16:21 |
| futuresoon | is paul a yaml guy? | 16:21 |
| fenn | no | 16:22 |
| futuresoon | paul is kanzure? | 16:22 |
| QuantumG | fenn: got a link to that google ontology? | 16:22 |
| fenn | he came up with something called 'pointrel' in the 1980's | 16:22 |
| fenn | paul fernhout is a guy who writes long winded emails on the openmanufacturing list | 16:22 |
| fenn | he wrote oscomak | 16:22 |
| futuresoon | ahh i see | 16:23 |
| fenn | or talked about writing it at least | 16:23 |
| futuresoon | i came to all this stuff first through arduino and then openfarmtech. i still don't have a lot of manufacturing experience apart from soldering open source chargers for ipods | 16:23 |
| fenn | but he got distracted with pointrel | 16:23 |
| fenn | yeah i had a revelation when i built ladyada's usbtinyisp | 16:24 |
| fenn | "you mean i can download hardware?" | 16:24 |
| futuresoon | apt-get :-) | 16:24 |
| fenn | apt-get was later, when i was thinking about openfarmtech | 16:25 |
| fenn | it seemed marcin was making something like GNU | 16:25 |
| fenn | but there could be many different "technology distributions" | 16:25 |
| fenn | and of course the thing that made linux not impossible to use was a package manager | 16:26 |
| fenn | otherwise you were constantly fiddling around with little details | 16:26 |
| fenn | kits should be pre-vetted to make sure they "just work" | 16:27 |
| fenn | so i came up with a way to describe what works with what | 16:27 |
| futuresoon | do you think you could describe what a mock yaml entry for some random thing might be? | 16:28 |
| fenn | it's not as simple as with software though, because you can't just instantly instantiate any package at zero cost | 16:28 |
| futuresoon | naturally | 16:28 |
| fenn | sure | 16:28 |
| futuresoon | i like marcin's phrase of "scrap metal plus labor" | 16:28 |
| fenn | meh | 16:28 |
| futuresoon | marketing BS? maybe :-P | 16:28 |
| fenn | everything is just matter energy and information, but saying that doesn't tell you how to do it | 16:28 |
| futuresoon | sure | 16:28 |
| fenn | it is something you dont really understand until you make stuff from scratch though | 16:29 |
| futuresoon | bill of materials sounds like one thing where you'd want standard data | 16:29 |
| futuresoon | is there a concept of "bill of materials" in this? | 16:30 |
| fenn | that's why it's so easy for consumers to get attached to a brand or style.. it's something magical, not just a series of movements someone made at some point in time | 16:30 |
| fenn | yes, sort of | 16:30 |
| fenn | bill of materials as traditionally stated is more like a shopping list | 16:30 |
| fenn | we want to reference the actual packages required to include | 16:31 |
| futuresoon | dependency management, sure | 16:31 |
| QuantumG | so does skdb include a list of required skills and skill levels? | 16:31 |
| fenn | like an electrolytic capacitor; i dont want to just say 'buy this part number' i want to describe what it really is enough that you could make it from scratch if necessary | 16:31 |
| futuresoon | fenn: okay but if it's an integrated circuit, you just include a part number? | 16:32 |
| fenn | QuantumG: not yet; never came to any good conclusions on how to do that unambiguously | 16:32 |
| fenn | futuresoon: yes but remember not all IC's are black boxes | 16:32 |
| fenn | do you know about opencores? | 16:32 |
| fenn | i can instantiate an 8051 processor on any fpga chip | 16:32 |
| QuantumG | ya.. it's an interesting problem.. but certainly being able to say "intermediate welding skills required" would be handy. | 16:32 |
| futuresoon | fenn: that's interesting and i'd like to hear more about that at some point, but it sounds like a judgment call whether to buy it or make it | 16:33 |
| futuresoon | i mean what's faster? what's reasonable | 16:33 |
| fenn | QuantumG: there was talk with the fab academy about providing skill training certificates for people who completed their course | 16:33 |
| fenn | futuresoon: depends... :) | 16:33 |
| futuresoon | fenn: especially if you could include a link to an open source manufacturer, you could support that enterprise, create advertising for peoples' open source business models, save people time | 16:34 |
| fenn | the idea is to define a preferences vector to weight different costs | 16:34 |
| fenn | yep | 16:34 |
| futuresoon | i believe in multi-dimensional analysis :-) | 16:34 |
| fenn | the point is there's no one true answer | 16:35 |
| fenn | it depends on a person's goals/values and circumstances | 16:35 |
| fenn | shipping is really expensive in sweden for example | 16:35 |
| futuresoon | so you want to advertise a critical path not even for most people, but just the plurality of people | 16:35 |
| futuresoon | or put your energy there etc | 16:35 |
| QuantumG | and yeah, you should be able to say: skill(stick welding, intermediate) || skill(mig welding, intermediate) || skill(tig welding, beginner) for something that's easier to do with tig than with stick or mig. | 16:36 |
| fenn | er. it would calculate the critical path on an individual basis, depending on your preferences and circumstances | 16:36 |
| fenn | hopefully we can fudge some positive network effects into the calculation | 16:36 |
| futuresoon | QuantumG: one potential with RDF is that someone could make a new instance of the web stack and map their own answers to say just that | 16:36 |
| fenn | conversely i'd like to propose inferring skill sets from projects one has previously completed | 16:38 |
| fenn | it's not a one to one mapping though | 16:38 |
| fenn | i mean you could have tig welded it but that doesn't mean you're an intermediate stick welder | 16:38 |
| QuantumG | yeah, for example you might have taken on the project but gotten someone else to do that skill | 16:39 |
| fenn | so, how do i make pretty pictures of these ideas? this is what i'm wrestling with today | 16:39 |
| fenn | about the closest thing i have is stuff like http://designfiles.org/lab/techtrees/Terran_Tech_Tree.jpg | 16:39 |
| QuantumG | just having the required skills in your BOM would be an improvement over most kits that use prose to describe the required skills. | 16:40 |
| fenn | http://designfiles.org/lab/fenn/pngs/zerg_tree.png | 16:41 |
| fenn | i'd love to create those on the fly with graphviz and real technology | 16:42 |
| fenn | have to build the db first though, which apparently is harder than it looks | 16:43 |
| fenn | chicken and egg problem | 16:43 |
| futuresoon | design choices that you won't be able to undo? | 16:43 |
| fenn | getting anyone to contribute without already having impressive graphics | 16:44 |
| fenn | getting motivated about a project that you've been talking about for years and has gone nowhere | 16:44 |
| futuresoon | so what stops this from being something that can be part of a major drupal install? | 16:44 |
| futuresoon | the data structures are already arbitrary YAML type stuff right? | 16:45 |
| fenn | i dont want to have to deal with heavyweight software, that's all | 16:45 |
| fenn | opencascade is bad enough, i'm actually thinking about dropping it despite the months invested in figuring it out | 16:45 |
| futuresoon | second time you've mentioned that. i'll look up what that is | 16:45 |
| fenn | http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/occ | 16:46 |
| fenn | large part of the problem is there is no open source cad format or program | 16:46 |
| fenn | openscad is interesting | 16:47 |
| fenn | in the end we will probably use a big mishmash of stuff | 16:47 |
| fenn | alibre (not Free), brl-cad, blender, openscad, AoI, heekscad | 16:48 |
| fenn | i dont really get why google hasn't open sourced sketchup | 16:48 |
| fenn | now i am rambling | 16:48 |
| futuresoon | :-) | 16:49 |
| futuresoon | yeah i just need to see what's already in skdb. for bills of materials, and dependency management between projects, rdf seems to make sense. obviously the CAD stuff if that's your data it doesn't benefit from having people fill out forms | 16:50 |
| futuresoon | what i had envisioned was instructables with dependency management and links (which could be monitored as to whether they were dead) to places to buy the bills of materials if you couldn't make them | 16:51 |
| futuresoon | you could state what materials you already have and filter everything by prerequisites you meet | 16:52 |
| fenn | remember i said it wasn't like software - you dont want to require a specific version of a thing (a certain model of milling machine for example) | 16:53 |
| futuresoon | right, well each node could have revision tracking | 16:53 |
| fenn | defining non-specific requirements turns out to be difficult | 16:53 |
| fenn | no you miss the point | 16:53 |
| fenn | it could be a router or a VMC or a bridgeport; they all perform adequately | 16:53 |
| futuresoon | right so you're saying if there's 5 versions of something, how do you know of the various combinations and permutations which one's good anymore | 16:53 |
| fenn | i dont want to have to buy/build a router if i already have a VMC to do the job | 16:53 |
| QuantumG | so will your db include the kinds of tests a part needs to pass before it is integrated? | 16:54 |
| fenn | so this is why all the process/technique functionality stuff | 16:54 |
| fenn | QuantumG: more like guides, like the debian lint or whatever it's called | 16:55 |
| fenn | lintian | 16:55 |
| fenn | futuresoon: there's not a lot of data in the system yet, so the format is still flexible.. this is why i find it hard to tell people what to do | 16:56 |
| futuresoon | yeah | 16:56 |
| futuresoon | fenn: okay so i'm having an RDF thought | 16:56 |
| fenn | but then they send me stuff and it's all wrong :( | 16:56 |
| futuresoon | what if you had a data structure that says "isDependentOn" and also "replacesDependencyOn" | 16:57 |
| fenn | so i end up rewriting all the data and spending about as much time as doing it myself from scratch | 16:57 |
| futuresoon | anyway i could see how this stuff gets complicated | 16:57 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:58 | |
| futuresoon | fenn: are you familiar with SPARQL? | 16:59 |
| futuresoon | you said you know about RDF a little? | 16:59 |
| futuresoon | cause all these contingencies sound like the real apt-get is the SPARQL query and you're just modifying web forms so that the SPARQL query you get will handle all these eventualities | 17:00 |
| futuresoon | is that something that's possible? | 17:02 |
| fenn | SPARQL is just SQL for RDF right? | 17:04 |
| futuresoon | basically | 17:05 |
| fenn | then no | 17:05 |
| futuresoon | so if a VNC claimed to replace a dependency of a router in a module, it could say so | 17:05 |
| fenn | yes | 17:05 |
| futuresoon | and presumably you'd just include anything out of the tools you already have that replaces any of the module's dependencies | 17:05 |
| futuresoon | where a module would be the SPARQL query without replacing | 17:06 |
| fenn | right | 17:06 |
| futuresoon | iow, the actual module is to look at what you have and replace its dependencies with things those things where it can | 17:06 |
| fenn | but, not all the data is explicit, there will have to be some intermediate calculations to figure out what is possible, which is where things get "interesting" | 17:06 |
| futuresoon | any examples of that? | 17:06 |
| fenn | as engineers we love to make everything modular and black boxy | 17:06 |
| futuresoon | i mean obviously that makes sense but something concrete | 17:06 |
| kanzure | back. reading. | 17:07 |
| futuresoon | hey kanzure | 17:07 |
| kanzure | thanks fenn for picking up where i slacked off | 17:07 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: the short version is that i'm trying to envision whether RDF isn't the perfect thing for this | 17:07 |
| futuresoon | and what your thoughts might be on that | 17:07 |
| fenn | rdf has the nice quality of being infinitely extended | 17:07 |
| fenn | unfotunately it's a pain in the ass to edit | 17:07 |
| kanzure | http://replab.sigmanode.com makes no sense to me | 17:08 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i wasn't on the google group yet | 17:08 |
| futuresoon | so i was just "starting anywhere" as they say | 17:08 |
| futuresoon | i had no idea real package handling was already underway | 17:08 |
| fenn | the google group hasn't come to any conclusions yet | 17:08 |
| fenn | the replab group i mean | 17:09 |
| kanzure | 16:21 < futuresoon> i originally came to kanzure like "i'm a drupal dev. what can i do" <-- oh. i read it more like "i'm a drupal dev. everyone convert to drupal now! because i know how to use it" | 17:09 |
| futuresoon | i can see that too, but what i'm saying is, i was just trying to get a replab.org community begun so they could start selling their CEB presses and getting some instructables "wiki bullshiTt" so to speak | 17:09 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: i am not paul. paul fernhout is http://pauldfernhout.net/ and i'm http://heybryan.org/ | 17:10 |
| futuresoon | i much prefer real package management if that's technologically feasible | 17:10 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i see that now | 17:10 |
| fenn | we have packages in git repositories that you can automatically sync/download | 17:10 |
| fenn | kanzure: i havent actually tried skdb-get.py yet | 17:10 |
| fenn | but i suppose it works | 17:10 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: mock yaml entries are available, like http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb-packages/screw/metadata.yaml for instance | 17:11 |
| fenn | btw why is VOICED in there? | 17:11 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: it would calculate the critical path dynamically. that's what all this dependency management stuff is about. | 17:12 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: yeah there's a dependency resolution example floating around in the unit tests folder (stupid, i know) based off of booleano's syntax | 17:12 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: so "name" "functionality" and "parts" might be some basics? | 17:14 |
| futuresoon | parts being the dependencies which might be other yaml files? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: part of the problem with instructables is that the instructions suck. so we were working on a way to fix that; think rendering instructions to 3D animations, text, graphics, etc. | 17:16 |
| fenn | parts is the stuff that is in the package | 17:16 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: you can check out the metadata.yaml file to see dependencies | 17:16 |
| fenn | a materials package might have no parts at all | 17:16 |
| futuresoon | oh, yup. i see the word dependencies now | 17:17 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: oh you were replied to my messages. heh. i'm still not caught up yet | 17:17 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: and rdf was not selected because it's easier to manually edit yaml than rdf? | 17:17 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: heh no worries | 17:17 |
| * fenn pouts | 17:18 | |
| kanzure | fenn: what's wrong? | 17:18 |
| fenn | he's asking you why you decided all the things i decided | 17:18 |
| fenn | maybe i am just overly sensitive to this | 17:18 |
| futuresoon | fenn: well it was your answer. it's a good answer | 17:18 |
| futuresoon | hey, there's no doubt that rdf is harder to manipulate than yaml | 17:19 |
| futuresoon | i'm just thinking interoperability in an alleged future of rdf that can't be proven will ever happen | 17:19 |
| fenn | i was originally going to do alternative xml syntax (SLiP) | 17:19 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:19 | |
| futuresoon | ok let me look that up | 17:19 |
| kanzure | story time | 17:19 |
| kanzure | the other week i was involved in a group called 3 day startup | 17:20 |
| kanzure | so i spent the weekend not sleeping and doing lots of coding | 17:20 |
| fenn | http://slip.sourceforge.net/ | 17:20 |
| kanzure | and i was on a team with some other programmers | 17:20 |
| futuresoon | fenn: yup i see it | 17:20 |
| kanzure | and after talking to see what our shared skillset was, and showing them some code i had prototyped quickly, | 17:20 |
| kanzure | they all started to ask me why we shouldn't just use a mysql database | 17:20 |
| kanzure | (ok, not all at once, but just randomly over the weekend) | 17:20 |
| kanzure | i don't know how to explain this | 17:21 |
| kanzure | but people seem to fixate on particular tools? | 17:21 |
| fenn | it's called mind share | 17:21 |
| kanzure | when i was doing php work in 2003, i would write the same lines of php over and over again to query a mysql db | 17:21 |
| kanzure | but i was young and stupid, so it's forgivable | 17:21 |
| kanzure | and everyone who was a "web designer" just stole templates from other websites | 17:21 |
| futuresoon | i never write mysql so i'm not as good at it as a web developer should be | 17:22 |
| fenn | once you start using a tool a lot, you start thinking in terms of that tool | 17:22 |
| kanzure | because that's what they knew how to do.. | 17:22 |
| futuresoon | sounds like what i'm doing | 17:22 |
| kanzure | i don't think fenn or i have anything specifically against xml, rdf, slip, json, or anything else you throw at us | 17:22 |
| kanzure | but at some point we needed to find some common ground | 17:22 |
| kanzure | or sparql | 17:22 |
| kanzure | gah brainlapse | 17:23 |
| fenn | hey if you want to make a "more websitey" template for this, that would be great: | 17:23 |
| fenn | um. heybryan.org:8081 is down? | 17:23 |
| kanzure | er | 17:23 |
| kanzure | one sec | 17:23 |
| kanzure | try now? | 17:23 |
| fenn | futuresoon: for this http://heybryan.org:8081/package/ | 17:23 |
| fenn | because apparently it's too plain-looking for kanzure | 17:23 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:23 |
| fenn | everything is gray on gray for me though, regardless what website it is, and that's how i like it | 17:24 |
| fenn | futuresoon: really unlikely that this already exists, but it would be cool if drupal had a git backend | 17:26 |
| fenn | i am sick of data jails | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i was pretty upset that i had to write my own module for django to work with git | 17:26 |
| kanzure | and even then i couldn't stop it from wanting to use a database | 17:27 |
| futuresoon | http://drupal.org/project/versioncontrol_git <--- not sure if this is anything like what you want? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | and it doesn't have a flatfile database backend (django i mean) | 17:27 |
| kanzure | "At the moment, only a back end for CVS has been written (see references)." | 17:28 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: flatfile would include .rdf dbases right? | 17:28 |
| kanzure | ah nevermind | 17:28 |
| fenn | that was the project proposal | 17:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: sorry, you're right | 17:28 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: flatfile could mean anything :) | 17:28 |
| fenn | almost anything | 17:29 |
| kanzure | heh true that. sqlite doesn't count in my book | 17:29 |
| fenn | i dont think a bare git repo would count | 17:29 |
| kanzure | but it's closer than mysql and postgresql etc | 17:29 |
| fenn | flatfile means "show me the code!" | 17:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: no i'm talking about a plugin to make django use .. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | er. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | i have to remember that you don't actually know django | 17:29 |
| kanzure | the way django works is that you instantiate the database and load it up with the models written in model python files | 17:29 |
| fenn | uh, nevermind i got confused | 17:30 |
| kanzure | django has some management code that does this for you, wrapping around the database api | 17:30 |
| kanzure | and then the database takes away your information and puts it somewhere, probably in /var/mysql/ or something | 17:30 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: please feel free to test/break the http://heybryan.org:8081/package/ demo. you can "edit" files | 17:31 |
| kanzure | it should be one or two lines of python to add in a preview CAD image generated based off of the yaml that a user edits | 17:31 |
| kanzure | (i already wrote a CAD preview generator dealy, but haven't tied it in) | 17:31 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i should wget the lego files for instance and then do something? | 17:32 |
| futuresoon | edit the yaml? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | wait wait, what? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | click the "edit" link | 17:32 |
| fenn | you could set up your own copy of the website but that's not what he means | 17:32 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data.yaml/:edit | 17:33 |
| futuresoon | ctrl-f for 'edit' doesn't give me anything on the lego page | 17:33 |
| kanzure | you have to click a file first | 17:33 |
| fenn | actually i dont see any edit link | 17:33 |
| kanzure | like data.yaml | 17:33 |
| fenn | :x | 17:33 |
| kanzure | sorry | 17:33 |
| kanzure | i suck | 17:33 |
| kanzure | i hear you laughing, fenn :( | 17:33 |
| futuresoon | no prob, okay i changed some of the CNC paths | 17:33 |
| kanzure | you did? there were paths? | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | i made a -1 a -2 | 17:34 |
| kanzure | what? | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | the first y-vector | 17:34 |
| kanzure | can you link me? | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | that i saw | 17:34 |
| kanzure | oh | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data.yaml/:edit | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | same link i guess | 17:34 |
| kanzure | is this it? | 17:34 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:anonymous/data.yaml/5ffe4c3060a4196bc21932d306190327c64db232 | 17:34 |
| kanzure | ah the first y_vector | 17:34 |
| kanzure | yep i see the change | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | that includes my edit | 17:34 |
| kanzure | neat | 17:34 |
| futuresoon | just have to work on that edit button now :-P | 17:35 |
| futuresoon | just playing | 17:35 |
| * fenn mumbles something about line by line diffs | 17:35 | |
| futuresoon | yeah a diff sure | 17:35 |
| kanzure | blah i don't have that implemented yet | 17:35 |
| kanzure | some help would be awesome.. | 17:35 |
| fenn | i cant help but feel all this git filesystem crap is redundant development effort | 17:35 |
| kanzure | what? | 17:35 |
| fenn | doesn't this exist somewhere already? | 17:35 |
| futuresoon | http://drupal.org/project/versioncontrol_git <--- not sure if this is anything like what you want? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | there are a lot of git/ruby libraries | 17:36 |
| futuresoon | did that turn out to be relevant or not? | 17:36 |
| fenn | i mean with cherrypy | 17:36 |
| fenn | maybe that's asking too much | 17:36 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: i know how drupal plugins work- in general- but how do drupal modules work, like versioncontrol_git? | 17:36 |
| futuresoon | i know it may sound like the drupal "hard sell" but there's a lot of stuff you get out of the box with drupal | 17:36 |
| futuresoon | drupal modules provide hooks to other modules so they can become depenencies of those modules | 17:37 |
| futuresoon | that's about it | 17:37 |
| futuresoon | the primary usefulness of drupal (apart from the large development community in general) are cck and views | 17:37 |
| futuresoon | in particular i think rdfcck would be of interest | 17:37 |
| futuresoon | because then you can have the arbitrary data structures that rdf provides and a nice web interface for entering their data and versioning them | 17:38 |
| kanzure | like this? http://drupal.org/project/rdfcck | 17:38 |
| futuresoon | yup | 17:38 |
| futuresoon | i referenced that earlier | 17:38 |
| kanzure | sorry | 17:38 |
| futuresoon | no prob | 17:38 |
| kanzure | i'll try harder | 17:38 |
| futuresoon | i've played with that to some extent | 17:38 |
| futuresoon | hah | 17:38 |
| futuresoon | i've played with most of the sparql/rdf things that drupal has | 17:38 |
| * fenn looks at http://www.stackfoundry.com/wedge/ (re git for cherrypy) | 17:39 | |
| futuresoon | my primary interest in drupal is that it's going leaps and bounds to trivialize some of the difficulties with rdf at present | 17:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: anyvcs isn't quite ready/functional yet | 17:39 |
| kanzure | :( | 17:39 |
| fenn | come on future, hurry up and get here | 17:39 |
| futuresoon | heh | 17:40 |
| kanzure | i think the main problems still aren't solved | 17:40 |
| kanzure | screw the data format problem | 17:40 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: ok | 17:40 |
| futuresoon | so what are the main issues | 17:41 |
| kanzure | instruction representation | 17:41 |
| kanzure | in terms of classes and code, not in terms of the data format | 17:41 |
| kanzure | one sec | 17:41 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py | 17:41 |
| fenn | instructions are a separate issue from dependency tracking | 17:41 |
| kanzure | i think we have dependencies down, even if we don't have our resolution engine yet | 17:41 |
| fenn | the philosophy maybe | 17:42 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: the main reason for providing forms on the website for people to edit stuff is so that people who aren't computer wizards can get involved | 17:43 |
| kanzure | but | 17:43 |
| kanzure | if they have to be computational linguist experts in order to help out at all, what's the point? | 17:43 |
| futuresoon | i don't think drupal can replace the need for something in a good language like python to actually provide instructions to CNC XYZ machines and what have you | 17:43 |
| fenn | there is a lot of stuff like 'find me the relevant data on this ANSI standard' but people dont seem to want to do that kind of legwork | 17:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: because nobody has access to ANSI standards :( | 17:44 |
| fenn | you can find it in machinery's handbook, which you can download from me for the asking | 17:44 |
| futuresoon | but if you had the data structures, even if it took rdf wizards to create the forms, it would allow people to make simple edits in the event they can't build/make what they apt-get | 17:44 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: one idea i was thinking of was letting people type mostly plaintext instructions, but in a templating syntax with parametric variables or something | 17:44 |
| kanzure | and then package maintainers would come by and integrate the information more thoroughly | 17:44 |
| fenn | i think that is dangerous | 17:45 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: is it important to generate these forms? i mean, i can think of a way to easily do that in python, but it doesn't seem important to me. | 17:45 |
| fenn | the plaintext crap will outpace the rate of assimilation and it will turn into thingiverse/instructibles overnight | 17:45 |
| kanzure | templates aren't plaintext crap necessarily | 17:46 |
| fenn | yeah they're crap in sheep's clothing | 17:46 |
| kanzure | let's say you pass a few variables to the Screw __init__'s | 17:46 |
| kanzure | er | 17:46 |
| kanzure | Screw's __init__ | 17:46 |
| fenn | superficially looks like good data... until you try to do anything with it | 17:46 |
| kanzure | then could you remind me why i made this wiki/git thing | 17:46 |
| fenn | i don't know :( | 17:47 |
| futuresoon | i can make a case for webforms, but if the CAD files or something have metadata associated with them, webforms for those may not be important | 17:47 |
| kanzure | it was my understanding that we wanted to load up the yaml in a sandbox | 17:47 |
| fenn | part of me wants to believe that 99% of humans aren't total morons | 17:47 |
| futuresoon | i think where the webforms come in is if you want to represent data to people on the web where you'd benefit from network effects of people checking that data | 17:47 |
| kanzure | but what's wrong with a giant <textarea> like there is currently? | 17:48 |
| futuresoon | asking me? | 17:48 |
| * kanzure nods | 17:48 | |
| fenn | currently there's no syntax or semantic checking | 17:48 |
| futuresoon | well if i have a special microsyntax that allows me to say what's a dependency in plaintext areas | 17:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: yeah that can be fixed though | 17:48 |
| fenn | how hard woul it be to get that operational? | 17:49 |
| futuresoon | then that doesn't allow a web application where i can allow people to filter packages by prerequisites they already meet | 17:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: not very.. i think it would be a matter of yaml.load(shit_the_user_posted_to_the_server) and then route out errors and complain | 17:49 |
| fenn | you just have to try skdb.load(whatever) and print any errors | 17:49 |
| kanzure | stop reading my brain waves damn it | 17:49 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: yes that's right | 17:49 |
| fenn | no you! | 17:49 |
| futuresoon | the most basic but useful thing i can think of where you'd want webforms is if you have users who would start building stuff but they don't even see projects that they can do because they don't know what prerequisites they meet | 17:49 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: but i was talking more low-level actually. er, let me ask my question a different way | 17:49 |
| futuresoon | ok | 17:49 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: do you know about the HTML "input" and "textarea" elements? | 17:50 |
| futuresoon | sure | 17:50 |
| futuresoon | in that sense all the fields i'm thinking of are textareas, checkboxes, various things | 17:50 |
| kanzure | is there any particular reason to give users "input" elements instead of the giant "textarea" element that you saw on heybryan.org:8081 ? | 17:50 |
| futuresoon | well textareas cover 95% of it | 17:50 |
| fenn | they do? | 17:50 |
| kanzure | the yaml can be broken up into multiple small "input" elements, but that limits what a user can type in | 17:51 |
| futuresoon | i would certainly think so | 17:51 |
| fenn | i thought the point of cck was it puts the form values into predefined rdf | 17:51 |
| fenn | textarea is just unformatted crap as far as the computer is concerned | 17:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: cherrypy passes all form variables as a dictionary to your python function | 17:51 |
| futuresoon | rdfcck (but not cck more generally) supports turning cck data into rdfa (or straight rdf "flat file" databases) | 17:51 |
| fenn | but only on a per-form basis | 17:51 |
| fenn | you can't do anything with a huge block of text | 17:52 |
| futuresoon | but people only input it as textareas, after that it can be represented many ways | 17:52 |
| futuresoon | cck and views support all sorts of things----if it were a google map, the "input" coudl be that a user clicks on the map | 17:52 |
| futuresoon | and how that's represnted could also be a map | 17:52 |
| kanzure | i feel like we're talking past each other | 17:52 |
| fenn | btw why do people refer to it as 'flat file database'? is there some preferred default form for storing rdf? | 17:52 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: right, i dont' get the thing about textareas other than that i agree, textarea inputs make sense most of the time | 17:53 |
| kanzure | yes i know data can be converted to various forms on the back end. i was asking about some ui preference thingy | 17:53 |
| kanzure | blah | 17:53 |
| kanzure | forget it :) | 17:53 |
| kanzure | everything's fine | 17:53 |
| fenn | single big textarea = wiki bullshit = no semantic tagging | 17:53 |
| futuresoon | fenn: my thinking too | 17:53 |
| kanzure | if you open up a text editor to edit some yaml file, | 17:53 |
| kanzure | you can add in all sorts of attributes and values where-ever you want | 17:53 |
| kanzure | but if you have a pre-generated form, you're limited to editing the values of the pre-existing attributes | 17:54 |
| kanzure | you can have some dynamic javascript stuff to add more form elements | 17:54 |
| kanzure | but to be honest, what does that really buy you? :( | 17:54 |
| futuresoon | let me show you something | 17:54 |
| fenn | user guidance | 17:54 |
| kanzure | is that important? | 17:54 |
| fenn | people don't read remember | 17:54 |
| futuresoon | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6NUFxWVEOw | 17:54 |
| futuresoon | this is for making arbitrary ontologies | 17:54 |
| futuresoon | mapping these to cck fields is also arbitrary | 17:54 |
| kanzure | sigh | 17:54 |
| kanzure | yes you've gone over this | 17:55 |
| kanzure | the mapping isn't the issue | 17:55 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-104.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 17:55 | |
| genehacker | I need to ask those replab people how far they want to replicate | 17:55 |
| kanzure | why | 17:55 |
| genehacker | I'm just wondering some things about what they actually want to accomplish | 17:56 |
| fenn | "to an economically significant degree" | 17:56 |
| kanzure | ask us | 17:56 |
| kanzure | we're pretty much the most of them.. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | except marcin, because he's too cool for irc or something :) | 17:56 |
| fenn | replab is more about access for non institutional groups than about replication per-se | 17:56 |
| genehacker | are they just going to make structural components for things like the laser cutters, 3d printers, etc | 17:56 |
| kanzure | what is a "structural component"? | 17:57 |
| kanzure | that sounds very vague | 17:57 |
| fenn | electronics, free designs, active components like tool bits: all fair game | 17:57 |
| fenn | nobody would agree that making your own laser diode is economically feasible at this point | 17:57 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i think i have an answer to what it "buys" you to have these javascripty web widgety doodads | 17:58 |
| genehacker | are they going to go as far as making their own bearings, linear slides, extruded aluminium hex bar, screws, nuts and bolts? | 17:58 |
| fenn | you damn kids and your newfangled doodads | 17:58 |
| genehacker | or will they buy those? | 17:58 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i think the answer is that if it's something you'd like to represent, sort, filter, in a web app, then it makes sense to have a web interface for a community to add value to that data | 17:58 |
| fenn | why can't you be happy with vi like me and my grandpa | 17:58 |
| futuresoon | heh, i love vim | 17:58 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: but it can already do that the way it is | 17:59 |
| genehacker | pah everyone knows notepad is the one true text editor | 17:59 |
| genehacker | it came first | 17:59 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: but as soon as it's something that you don't care how it's represented or manipulated or linked up over the web, it matters less. does that make sense? | 17:59 |
| fenn | genehacker: yes i think so | 17:59 |
| kanzure | not really, no. | 17:59 |
| genehacker | sounds ambitious | 17:59 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: it would be very hard for me to believe that without cck and views you can build a community around the data. some of that data maybe doesn't profit from having community around it as others though | 18:00 |
| fenn | not when you start shopping for extruded aluminum hex bar and find out you can't afford it | 18:00 |
| genehacker | also from what ingots? bar stock? | 18:00 |
| fenn | wtf you dont make bar stock from bar stock; that's idiotic | 18:00 |
| futuresoon | if you need an engineer to make a CAD file and that CAD file has metadata, it may not matter if the webforms are made a little bit easier for people to collaboratively edit | 18:00 |
| kanzure | "i love vim. vreally, i vo! now destroy the laser cannon before captain nerbov gets here!" <- sorry, when you said "i love vim" i started thinking of you as a russian scientist from the 50s | 18:01 |
| genehacker | I'd be more worried about making the spider dies then | 18:01 |
| futuresoon | heh | 18:01 |
| futuresoon | nuclear wessels | 18:01 |
| kanzure | right | 18:01 |
| genehacker | so ingots or bar stock? | 18:01 |
| genehacker | or mine the raw materials | 18:01 |
| fenn | genehacker: have you heard about makerbeam? | 18:01 |
| genehacker | yes | 18:01 |
| fenn | the guys behind that are really into replab | 18:02 |
| kanzure | in fact they created the replab mailing list | 18:02 |
| futuresoon | yeah some of those guys told me i should talk to kanzure | 18:02 |
| fenn | yeah :( | 18:02 |
| fenn | so here we are | 18:02 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: oh, i thought genehacker said that | 18:02 |
| kanzure | which is funny because i've known genehacker for over a year now | 18:02 |
| futuresoon | sam something | 18:02 |
| kanzure | putman | 18:02 |
| futuresoon | you and sam were debating on the mailing list i saw | 18:02 |
| * kanzure shakes his head | 18:02 | |
| futuresoon | right | 18:02 |
| fenn | kanzure: on irc, nobody can hear you laugh/scream | 18:02 |
| genehacker | so to make makerbeam we need spider dies | 18:02 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i think your'e BOTH right :-) | 18:03 |
| genehacker | for an extruder | 18:03 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: about what? | 18:03 |
| futuresoon | i think sam putnam is emphasizing the web app community aspect and you're saying that unless it's a package that actually works to make machine readable stuff, it's just another instructables | 18:03 |
| kanzure | yay someone listens | 18:04 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: hey, you distracted me >:( | 18:04 |
| fenn | futuresoon: so are you the guy who sam was talking about building a funding community website thingy like oshwbank.org ? | 18:04 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: i was gonna give you a potential, small easy task | 18:04 |
| genehacker | also why do they want to only punch out circular forms | 18:04 |
| futuresoon | no, i sent marcin an email a few days ago, my first contact. sam got back to me and saw the site stub i made | 18:04 |
| futuresoon | and now i'm here | 18:04 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: the git diff view on web.py that fenn was asking for ;-) it can be made by adding a function to the Package class in web.py | 18:04 |
| genehacker | with a sufficient press it'd be possible to make so much more | 18:04 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: how did you meet marcin? | 18:04 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: just sent him an email a few days ago when i saw replab.org needed a web developer | 18:05 |
| kanzure | er but how did.. uh | 18:05 |
| kanzure | hey do you do templates? :) | 18:05 |
| futuresoon | hah | 18:05 |
| futuresoon | i need to learn me some python | 18:05 |
| kanzure | and by templates i don't mean stealing them | 18:05 |
| fenn | genehacker: i think the ironworker thing is pointless.. he should just use the plasma cutter he already has | 18:05 |
| futuresoon | not sure what i'm being asked anymore? :-) | 18:05 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: the easiest way is to set up an interpreter. go give http://bpython-interpreter.org/ a try | 18:05 |
| genehacker | iron worker thing? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: i was wondering if you know CSS/xhtml/how to make stuff not look like http://heybryan.org/ | 18:06 |
| fenn | genehacker: i thought that's what you were talking about "only punch out circular forms" | 18:06 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: i didn't steal that replab.org template | 18:06 |
| futuresoon | i made it from gimp in 2 days | 18:06 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: sorry i wasn't saying you did | 18:06 |
| futuresoon | from 960.gs | 18:06 |
| futuresoon | no no, i don't take offense | 18:07 |
| kanzure | i didn't know you made it | 18:07 |
| futuresoon | i have ALSO stolen templates :-) | 18:07 |
| futuresoon | and have no problem doing so | 18:07 |
| kanzure | i've just been meeting people who claim nto be web designers, but they just steal templates | 18:07 |
| futuresoon | i'm just expanding my horizons | 18:07 |
| fenn | i dont see what's wrong with stealing templates | 18:07 |
| futuresoon | right, nothing wrong with it | 18:07 |
| futuresoon | this time i happened not to | 18:07 |
| kanzure | people will say "hey that looks like that other site!" | 18:07 |
| fenn | boo hoo | 18:07 |
| kanzure | that's not bad? | 18:07 |
| fenn | just dont steal it from your direct competitor | 18:07 |
| kanzure | well | 18:07 |
| kanzure | should've told me that earlier | 18:07 |
| kanzure | i did that once.. | 18:08 |
| fenn | idiot | 18:08 |
| kanzure | i was 11 :( | 18:08 |
| futuresoon | the replab.sigmanode.com site has 4 layouts depending on whether there's left, right, both or no sidebars | 18:08 |
| futuresoon | obviously like most templates | 18:08 |
| genehacker | plasma cutters need tungsten don't they? | 18:08 |
| futuresoon | except i made this one | 18:08 |
| fenn | btw can we take down that fritzing picture | 18:08 |
| kanzure | fritzing? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: i'll probably be leaving to go to a meeting later this evening, soon | 18:08 |
| genehacker | made what? | 18:09 |
| fenn | the breadboard bubble flyin submarine phonograph thing | 18:09 |
| genehacker | a plasma cutter head? | 18:09 |
| kanzure | fenn: i was wondering if you took a look at doc/presentations/hplus-summit-2009/outline | 18:09 |
| fenn | yes very good | 18:09 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/doc/presentations/hplus-summit-2009/outline | 18:09 |
| kanzure | ok | 18:09 |
| fenn | do you update that regularly/automatically? | 18:09 |
| fenn | adl/skdb | 18:09 |
| kanzure | i do it regularly but not automatically | 18:09 |
| genehacker | hmm... where is that submarine picture thing | 18:10 |
| genehacker | I need to save it | 18:10 |
| genehacker | and make it in real life | 18:10 |
| fenn | http://fritzing.org/ | 18:10 |
| kanzure | oright | 18:10 |
| kanzure | haha, yes we probably should | 18:10 |
| fenn | it is a cool picture | 18:11 |
| genehacker | needs more fins | 18:11 |
| genehacker | needs to have the ability to swarm | 18:12 |
| futuresoon | i love the fritzing concept | 18:15 |
| genehacker | that periscope needs to be shortened | 18:15 |
| -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 18:24 | |
| genehacker | also does anyone know of any good resources on NC | 18:24 |
| genehacker | control | 18:24 |
| genehacker | really old really simplified NC machines | 18:24 |
| genehacker | and how they worked | 18:25 |
| -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:26 | |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 18:26 | |
| genehacker | I guess that submarine could use fluidic control to be really really cheap to make | 18:27 |
| genehacker | wouldn't have much capability | 18:27 |
| genehacker | but it'd be cheap | 18:27 |
| -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@ppp-69-148-69-156.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:27 | |
| futuresoon | is there a skdb.py? | 18:35 |
| futuresoon | i'm a python noob no doubt, but if it says import skdb does that mean there's a skdb.py? | 18:35 |
| futuresoon | well we'll see how the install script goes | 18:46 |
| futuresoon | i need to start getting some resources to build some cnc xyz machines | 18:46 |
| futuresoon | that's basically what all this is intended to run, right? things like in the replab roadmap/ | 18:47 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-104.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 18:53 | |
| kanzure | futuresoon: yeah there's an skdb.py | 19:32 |
| kanzure | but there's also a module | 19:32 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: yes | 19:32 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: see skdb/core/skdb.py | 19:32 |
| kanzure | but skdb/core/__init__.py is also somewhat informative | 19:32 |
| futuresoon | okay | 19:34 |
| futuresoon | i might have a pythonpath problem | 19:35 |
| futuresoon | skdb/core/__init__.py is just from skdb import * | 19:35 |
| futuresoon | maybe you mean settings.py? | 19:36 |
| futuresoon | ok i think i'm close now | 19:37 |
| futuresoon | now i get AssertionError: /usr/local/share/skdb/threads: skdb package not found or unreadable | 19:37 |
| futuresoon | from packages/screw/screw.py | 19:38 |
| futuresoon | okay now it runs it just doesn't output anything | 19:39 |
| futuresoon | should i be using it in interactive mode? | 19:39 |
| futuresoon | i should have been running the lego demo anyway, that's what i wanted | 19:41 |
| futuresoon | skdb.geom not loaded, load_CAD not available | 19:41 |
| futuresoon | but it runs now | 19:41 |
| futuresoon | more so | 19:41 |
| futuresoon | i get some compatibility assessments about anti stud and stud cup | 19:42 |
| futuresoon | i assume that means it's working although paths.py still has some OCC.gp stuff i have to work out | 19:42 |
| kanzure | what are you running | 19:48 |
| kanzure | "no output" when you run what? | 19:48 |
| futuresoon | i ran the lego demo and it basically worked although it threw some exceptions | 19:48 |
| kanzure | you should try running skdb/paths.py - that's an interactive 3D visualizer | 19:48 |
| futuresoon | that time it was the screw.py | 19:48 |
| kanzure | did you see various legos in 3D? | 19:48 |
| futuresoon | paths.py relies on OCC.gp which isn't working now | 19:48 |
| futuresoon | thought the installer mentioned OCC but i guess i don't have it | 19:48 |
| kanzure | yeah you need that to do anything interesting with skdb | 19:49 |
| futuresoon | the install script you have up there | 19:49 |
| kanzure | kind of a flaw :( | 19:49 |
| futuresoon | can i apt-get it? i don't know what a gp extension is | 19:49 |
| kanzure | hopefully the installation notes are clear enough | 19:49 |
| kanzure | yes you can apt-get it per the notes | 19:49 |
| kanzure | see skdb/doc/installation | 19:49 |
| futuresoon | k | 19:50 |
| kanzure | but you can't apt-get pythonocc, there's a few notes on how to get that working (which is what's giving you your error) | 19:50 |
| kanzure | sorry i'm distracted at the moment. if you yell at me loudly enough though i'll be able to answer questions :) | 19:50 |
| kanzure | (in a meeting) | 19:50 |
| futuresoon | no prob | 19:51 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-53-22.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:57 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-53-22.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 20:26 | |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-220.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:57 | |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 21:27 | |
| -!- Juul_ [n=Juul@h55eb1609.dkkoost.sta.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 21:39 | |
| futuresoon | kanzure: you still busy? | 21:39 |
| -!- Juul_ [n=Juul@h55eb1609.dkkoost.sta.perspektivbredband.net] has left #hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] | 21:40 | |
| kanzure | futuresoon: yeah but i'm around | 21:41 |
| kanzure | what's up? | 21:41 |
| -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 21:51 | |
| -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 21:51 | |
| futuresoon | i was just looking at the pdf updates-from-austin. was going to shoot the breeze about that | 21:52 |
| futuresoon | i can wait though | 21:52 |
| fenn | pythonocc is a bitch | 22:54 |
| fenn | i expect eventually it will just work all the time | 22:55 |
| futuresoon | fenn: would that day were today :-) | 23:18 |
| futuresoon | yeah i haven't gotten it to work yet | 23:18 |
| -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 23:28 | |
| fenn | second time in two days i've run across the phrase "design noir" | 23:28 |
| fenn | third actually | 23:30 |
| futuresoon | interesting | 23:33 |
| futuresoon | i doubt the nipple chair will ever go into mass production | 23:35 |
| fenn | i still havent really figured out wtf it is about | 23:36 |
| futuresoon | sounds like this http://www.ugotrade.com/2009/01/28/pachube-patching-the-planet-interview-with-usman-haque/ | 23:36 |
| fenn | name sounds familiar | 23:37 |
| futuresoon | so replab.org | 23:37 |
| fenn | "operating systems for architecture" or something like that | 23:37 |
| futuresoon | yeah, an Urban Versioning System | 23:38 |
| futuresoon | how long have you guys been working on skdb? | 23:38 |
| futuresoon | i was looking at the updates from austin presentation | 23:38 |
| fenn | 1.5 years since i had the idea, but only really working on it for 7 or 8 months | 23:38 |
| futuresoon | looks like some of the problems of generalizing the system can be fudged for at least some of the grosser parts they're doing at openfarmtech? | 23:38 |
| futuresoon | i see | 23:39 |
| futuresoon | b-rep for instance or manufacturing process specifications | 23:39 |
| fenn | please elaborate | 23:40 |
| futuresoon | i know those are the awesome parts. i don't know exactly to what extent marcin has succeeded in standardizing those | 23:40 |
| futuresoon | he's gotten a lot of mileage out of cutting and welding | 23:40 |
| futuresoon | using bolts for gridbeam type structures | 23:40 |
| fenn | he hasn't done anything that requires high precision is why | 23:40 |
| fenn | can't make a diesel engine out of grid beam | 23:41 |
| futuresoon | very true | 23:41 |
| futuresoon | some of these problems like b-rep and manufacturing process specification look like they're subject to human input (you just claim that the b-rep will work out) or selecting specific ontologies and making design choices in that (having a limited number of manufacturing processes) | 23:43 |
| fenn | "[pachube is] A web service that enables people to tag and share real time sensor data from objects, devices and spaces around the world, facilitating interaction between remote environments, both physical and virtual." | 23:43 |
| futuresoon | right | 23:43 |
| fenn | the multiply-anticipated AR killer app | 23:43 |
| fenn | well, are the formats and API's open? that's all that matters in the end | 23:44 |
| futuresoon | formats and APIs for replab.org? | 23:44 |
| fenn | for pachub | 23:44 |
| fenn | sorry i'm easily distracted | 23:44 |
| futuresoon | pachube intends to open source its code so anybody could run a copy | 23:44 |
| futuresoon | grid computing type stuff | 23:44 |
| fenn | b-rep is a type of cad geometry, like mesh or CSG | 23:44 |
| futuresoon | yeah i was reading about b-rep | 23:45 |
| fenn | it's only midnight; i shouldnt be having this much trouble understanding | 23:45 |
| futuresoon | i guess i'm trying to figure out what the time horizon is for skdb being useful for making replab.org | 23:46 |
| fenn | ah | 23:47 |
| futuresoon | given the tricky generalization problems | 23:47 |
| futuresoon | and whether those can be fudged temporarily | 23:47 |
| fenn | kludges have a way of not being temporary | 23:47 |
| futuresoon | see, this is why i look at rdf and think "bingo" | 23:47 |
| futuresoon | because if you had fudges in rdf, they're no longer fudges | 23:47 |
| futuresoon | you just map old data structures to new ones, and those become the new standard | 23:48 |
| futuresoon | does that not sound right? | 23:49 |
| fenn | i dont think it's always so easy | 23:49 |
| futuresoon | i don't think anybody "knows" | 23:50 |
| futuresoon | there's not masses of rdf data out there yet | 23:50 |
| fenn | like if standard 1.0 lumps all animals together but 2.0 wants to know if they're warm or cold blooded | 23:50 |
| futuresoon | or at least not for things as subject to emphasis and selection as this | 23:50 |
| futuresoon | that's easy in rdf | 23:50 |
| fenn | but the data wasn't there when it was being entered into 1.0 | 23:51 |
| fenn | it's just animal 1 animal 2 animal 3 | 23:51 |
| futuresoon | but then you just have 2.0 reference 1.0 | 23:51 |
| futuresoon | and also add new classes | 23:51 |
| futuresoon | each entry in 2.0 actually gives the URI for 1.0 objects | 23:51 |
| futuresoon | and adds info | 23:51 |
| fenn | but it's not a 1:1 mapping | 23:51 |
| fenn | why is there no rdf data yet? | 23:52 |
| futuresoon | my personal opinion is that the reason there's not lots of rdf data is because there's not content management systems that can output it | 23:52 |
| fenn | i remember this quote from the usman haque interview | 23:53 |
| fenn | “…I think total openness is fatal. It’s like lying in a blazing sun under a sky full of vultures, naked. It’s also rather rude, like babbling anything or anything that flies into your head and still expecting people to pay attention.” | 23:53 |
| futuresoon | yeah, i thought that quote was interesting | 23:53 |
| fenn | bruce sterling actually | 23:54 |
| futuresoon | i had to read that article several times to understand the implications | 23:54 |
| futuresoon | certainly rdf is more queryable than yaml | 23:54 |
| futuresoon | more subject to manipulation | 23:54 |
| fenn | i guess | 23:55 |
| futuresoon | i think it's really the difficulty of even visualizing all the classes in an ontology in the first place that are one reason it's difficult to manually enter rdf | 23:55 |
| fenn | you know what we're doing with yaml and objects? | 23:55 |
| kanzure | does rdf have a "schema" ? | 23:55 |
| fenn | its not just raw dictionaries; each yaml entry is parsed as a python class (or any other language) | 23:56 |
| futuresoon | kanzure: it has things like literals, subclasses of, etc. | 23:56 |
| futuresoon | fenn: things with a ! in front are python classes, right? | 23:56 |
| kanzure | eh | 23:56 |
| kanzure | they are all python objects | 23:57 |
| kanzure | the !tagtagtag stuff are particular classes though | 23:57 |
| fenn | !tags map to classes in whatever language you tell it to | 23:57 |
| futuresoon | i see | 23:57 |
| fenn | a python specific tag is something like !!python/object:blahblah | 23:57 |
| kanzure | in python we specify those by inheriting from yaml.YAMLObject and adding an attribute to the class "yaml_tag" which is of the same value like "!tagtagtag" | 23:57 |
| kanzure | futuresoon: so, an ontology isn't necessary here | 23:58 |
| fenn | i wouldnt say that | 23:58 |
| fenn | there's still an ontology, it's just more implicit in the code :( | 23:58 |
| kanzure | this is all just serialization. the most important thing is code that runs and "makes sense" | 23:59 |
| fenn | i find it hard to explicitly declare an ontology, it's like intellectual masturbation or something | 23:59 |
| kanzure | er, code that runs, and a way for objects to parse themselves or their own data | 23:59 |
| kanzure | the code should also make sense of course ;-) | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
