| --- Day changed Tue Dec 29 2009 | ||
| Aliks | yeah that too | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Aliks | kanzure, true | 00:00 |
| randallagordon | I still can't get PythonOCC to play nice...but I haven't spent much time on it, either | 00:00 |
| QuantumG | "wow, great invention, it's now secret, if you want to keep working on it you'll be doing it in the employ of the US gov, thanks" | 00:00 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: do you know where you got stuck? | 00:00 |
| Aliks | QuantumG, I wonder how many great things are locked away that way | 00:00 |
| kanzure | missing words | 00:01 |
| QuantumG | apparently most everything rocket related is | 00:01 |
| Aliks | kanzure, have you thought about doing this with wood or other easily worked materials? | 00:01 |
| Aliks | as opposed to metal? | 00:01 |
| kanzure | doing what with wood? | 00:01 |
| Aliks | SKDB | 00:01 |
| kanzure | yes it's for all materials | 00:01 |
| randallagordon | everything except pythonOCC appeared to install/compile properly...lemme fire up VirtualBox and see if I can't figure anything out | 00:01 |
| Aliks | anything made mostly out of wood... chairs, beds, etc. | 00:01 |
| kanzure | for instance, the legos in the repository are plastic | 00:01 |
| kanzure | and the screws are cold rolled steel IIRC | 00:01 |
| * Aliks nods. | 00:01 | |
| QuantumG | sometimes things get declassified after 10 years of non-development and people are allowed to commercialize it though | 00:02 |
| kanzure | there are no wood projects yet in there because i'm only one person | 00:02 |
| kanzure | if you other lazy bums want to help out.. :) | 00:02 |
| Aliks | haha | 00:02 |
| Aliks | yeah | 00:02 |
| kanzure | just saying | 00:02 |
| Aliks | unfortunately I have too much on my plate already | 00:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: are you awake yet. it's been 36 hours | 00:02 |
| randallagordon | I'd be happy to, if I knew what I was doing, lol | 00:02 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/ it's really simple | 00:02 |
| kanzure | just make a folder, and put some CAD models in there | 00:02 |
| kanzure | (STEP or IGES models) | 00:02 |
| kanzure | and then show it to me :p | 00:02 |
| Aliks | QuantumG, my main concern with patents is they seem to work for the companies with lots of money, and not for individual inventors | 00:03 |
| Aliks | like for example I'll be filing a patent pending later this month | 00:03 |
| Aliks | or early next month I should say | 00:03 |
| randallagordon | I've never done any CAD modeling | 00:03 |
| Aliks | but odds are it's got some minor flaw in the wording | 00:03 |
| Aliks | that will allow a million dollar corporate legal department to pick it apart | 00:03 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: it can be fun when it's free. try this on for size: http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ | 00:03 |
| Aliks | and then patent their own version in the proper legal language, and prevent me from using my own idea | 00:03 |
| Aliks | or at the very least avoid paying a dime in royalties | 00:04 |
| randallagordon | *yoink* | 00:04 |
| QuantumG | patents dont work for anything other than an extra bit of nonsense to convince an investor to give you money | 00:04 |
| randallagordon | I've toyed with Sketchup a tiny amount, that's as close as I've come | 00:04 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: avoid sketchup at all costs. when you make something in ketchup, it's locked in as a "mesh" and it's not "real" CAD | 00:04 |
| Aliks | QuantumG, well they deter some of your smaller competitors, and it raises the cost of fucking you | 00:04 |
| kanzure | Aliks: show me. | 00:05 |
| Aliks | kanzure, ? | 00:05 |
| kanzure | a case where little guys were kept out because they feared you or something | 00:05 |
| Aliks | oh, its all anecdotal man lol | 00:05 |
| Aliks | I dont store away the sites | 00:05 |
| Aliks | just things that I've read, heard about, have been recommended to me | 00:05 |
| Aliks | I claim no scientific proof lol | 00:05 |
| randallagordon | kanzure, aye, I was using it to make some simple illustrations that didn't require any sort of precision | 00:06 |
| kanzure | okie dokie | 00:06 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 00:06 | |
| kanzure | tomorrow, documentation will be available | 00:06 |
| kanzure | i spent today making pretty LaTeX bullshit | 00:06 |
| randallagordon | wait... | 00:10 |
| randallagordon | I think it just worked | 00:10 |
| randallagordon | I should get *nothing* upon issuing "import skdb" if it is working, correct? | 00:10 |
| Aliks | lol I think that's the typical linux success message | 00:12 |
| Aliks | is nothing | 00:12 |
| Aliks | right? | 00:12 |
| randallagordon | hehe, well I'm not getting an error about pythonOCC not being installed properly, anymore, so I take that as a good thing ;) | 00:12 |
| Aliks | how often do you guys do those meetups? the conferences? | 00:13 |
| ybit | kanzure: LaTeX is nice, but why not just html | 00:13 |
| ybit | or text | 00:13 |
| * ybit rapes gnusha | 00:14 | |
| randallagordon | wow | 00:17 |
| * randallagordon is slightly disturbed. Only slightly. | 00:17 | |
| ybit | what? that i raped the skdb mascot? | 00:18 |
| ybit | get used to it buddy | 00:18 |
| * randallagordon already is. | 00:18 | |
| Aliks | man, why must the government put so much data out as PDF? | 00:18 |
| * randallagordon gets over things quickly | 00:19 | |
| Aliks | is it INTENTIONALLY making it hard to tabulate the data? | 00:19 |
| Aliks | fuck! | 00:19 |
| Aliks | I need to get some Indians to do the data entry now | 00:19 |
| ybit | someone want to help my lazy ass and write something for the bottom of http://openmanufacturing.org/ | 00:20 |
| ybit | preferably not using the word 'lazy' or its derivatives so many times as 'lazy' is one of the main keywords now | 00:20 |
| ybit | according to google | 00:20 |
| randallagordon | haha, awesome | 00:25 |
| randallagordon | hey, I think it did something useful... packages/lego/demo.py appears to have worked properly! | 00:27 |
| randallagordon | "brick1's stud cup is compatible with: ['anti stud cup']" | 00:27 |
| Aliks | I wish I could throw all this data into a database easily and call it up... but would take more time to organize it all and insert it than to just take the pieces I need... bah, inefficiency | 00:31 |
| randallagordon | PDF certainly doesn't shine for transporting raw data... | 00:31 |
| Aliks | and even tabular formats require a lot of massaging | 00:33 |
| Aliks | like... it's not designed for database insertion | 00:33 |
| Aliks | it's not obvious how to organize it in a way that would be easily computer usable | 00:33 |
| randallagordon | wohoo, I've got a Lego model that I can spin around...this is apparently the greatest day of my life | 00:34 |
| randallagordon | have you watched Hans Rosling's TED videos? | 00:36 |
| randallagordon | that man's data visualization abilities makes my loins tingle | 00:37 |
| Aliks | lol | 00:38 |
| randallagordon | I'm rarely impressed with Flash...but this is an exception: http://www.innovid.com/ | 00:39 |
| randallagordon | Although I'm immediately thinking through how it is possible to achive the same thing with HTML5's <video> element... | 00:39 |
| ybit | congrats randallagordon | 00:41 |
| * randallagordon take a bow, astounded by his ability to follow instructions | 00:42 | |
| Aliks | finally, DNS propogated | 00:44 |
| randallagordon | I'm curious if I might be able to get some feedback...recently I picked up forkcapitalism.com, I intend to use it as an outlet for discussing my ideas about how to practice capitalism ethically, taking into account physical, environmental and social value factors that go far beyond the "bottom line"... The name intendes to mean essentially what a software project fork is, branching off and doing things another way. | 00:48 |
| randallagordon | The logo I've created I'm intending to show an "ending" of those old ways and a continual impovement using the new fork of ideas, thus the following logo: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_2152.png | 00:48 |
| Aliks | not bad | 00:48 |
| Aliks | I like it | 00:49 |
| randallagordon | started here: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-26_1626.png | 00:49 |
| randallagordon | http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_1258.png | 00:50 |
| randallagordon | http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_1403.png | 00:50 |
| randallagordon | I have a few variations created, as you can see, but the first link I think takes care of most of the "problems" | 00:51 |
| randallagordon | Such as downward arrows having a negative connotation with relation to the dollar, but flipping the "fork" over creates, well, a pitchfork, or devil horns, heh | 00:51 |
| randallagordon | in the end, I think removing the arrow point from the "original branch" had quite the impact on communicating meaning | 00:52 |
| randallagordon | and now I feel like I'm rambling and will shut up | 00:53 |
| Aliks | lol its ok I was just going back and forth on something else | 00:56 |
| Aliks | I think this latest version is the best out of the 4 | 00:57 |
| randallagordon | 12-27_2152 is the "latest" as per the file timestamps, or are you refering to _1403, the latest I linked to? | 00:58 |
| Aliks | first first you linked to | 00:59 |
| Aliks | _2152 | 00:59 |
| randallagordon | cool | 01:00 |
| Aliks | man, I dunno how much work I wanna put into this... gah it sucks having so much stuff that could be done... and it's all so inefficiently being distributed.. the workload that is | 01:08 |
| randallagordon | this? | 01:09 |
| randallagordon | oh, the data thing? what precisely are you doing? | 01:10 |
| Aliks | well, my brain hasnt been working as well as usual, so I was trying to do something fairly mundane while it recovers lol... | 01:11 |
| Aliks | trying to write an article called "understanding economic currents" | 01:11 |
| Aliks | where I'm going to break down incomes, expenditures, etc. of both individuals and businesses in the US | 01:11 |
| randallagordon | I enjoy the fact that you consider that mundane :) | 01:11 |
| Aliks | and then create "personas" for each section of the economy | 01:11 |
| Aliks | and then try to explain to college students, esp. business students, where money is flowing to and from | 01:12 |
| Aliks | what kinds of goods are being purchased | 01:12 |
| randallagordon | so what's your area of expertise? | 01:12 |
| randallagordon | econ? | 01:12 |
| Aliks | I'm kind of all over the place, mostly CS though | 01:12 |
| Aliks | I've done a lot of philosophical/economic/political thinking as well | 01:12 |
| Aliks | took about 2 years of business courses in college along with my other stuff | 01:12 |
| Aliks | (and that's not where I did most of my thinking lol) | 01:13 |
| Aliks | basically the idea is to help people get a grip on how the economy is working in reality... | 01:13 |
| Aliks | who are their potential customers, employers, etc. | 01:13 |
| Aliks | what kinds of products are people currently buying, which then indicates what sorts of needs/wants those people have | 01:13 |
| Aliks | you can sort of infer what sort of innovations would work | 01:14 |
| Aliks | and I'm going to try to explain that they should look at the underlying motivations, not what people are currently buying | 01:14 |
| Aliks | like, the fact that people buy TP doesnt mean they want TP | 01:14 |
| Aliks | if you invent a magic wand that cleans their ass, they'll buy that too | 01:14 |
| Aliks | lol | 01:14 |
| Aliks | anyway, thats the general idea | 01:14 |
| Aliks | I got tired of dealing with business students who are totally clueless about how the market really works | 01:15 |
| Aliks | have no idea what product to make, what to do, etc. | 01:15 |
| randallagordon | I dig | 01:16 |
| randallagordon | sounds like I need to keep a close eye on your writing...do you publish it publicly anywhere? | 01:17 |
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| Aliks | I will be yeah | 01:18 |
| Aliks | I need to reorganize my past writing | 01:18 |
| Aliks | I dont get to do enough anymore.. I stay too busy | 01:18 |
| Aliks | I just dont have enough hands... I'm sure you know the feeling | 01:19 |
| genehacker | http://blog.makezine.com/hapy_birthday_linus.jpg | 01:19 |
| genehacker | where is your god now? | 01:19 |
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| QuantumG | http://www.imm.org/publications/pnas/ | 01:20 |
| QuantumG | what a revolution that sparked! </sarcasm> | 01:20 |
| Aliks | lol | 01:21 |
| randallagordon | Aye, I tend to end up spilling many pots ;) | 01:23 |
| Aliks | I wish there was a way to easily find collaborators on stuff | 01:24 |
| Aliks | as it is it takes longer to find collaborators than to just do stuf | 01:24 |
| randallagordon | Aye | 01:26 |
| genehacker | what sort of stuff do you wish to collaborate on? | 01:26 |
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| Aliks | genehacker, I have so many projects its hard to say... pretty much anything i'm working on... right now doing some scraping/database insertion of census bureau data... lol | 01:29 |
| Aliks | I'll have to make a list | 01:29 |
| randallagordon | Does anyone have any good sources of information on patent law regarding DIY projects? Does the simple act of creation cause violation, or must it first be commercialized? | 01:29 |
| Aliks | good question | 01:30 |
| Aliks | we should have a DIY Legal FAQ | 01:30 |
| Aliks | diylegal.com? lol | 01:30 |
| randallagordon | I'd also love some quality sources for info about ensuring ideas are forced into the commons, making them unpatentable...I'm finding that Google is worthless on this front, as the simple addition of the word "patent" to any search leads to an endless mess of "Patent your idea yourself" sites... | 01:33 |
| Aliks | yes | 01:34 |
| Aliks | I'm having a similar issue actually | 01:35 |
| Aliks | I have an idea that I don't want someone else to take and commercialize but I fear that without spending $100,000s on lawyers, my own patent efforts will be unsuccesful | 01:35 |
| Aliks | lol | 01:35 |
| randallagordon | There's all sorts of info catering to those who want to lock information down, making it difficult to uncover useful information for those of us who want to ensure it can't be locked down... | 01:35 |
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| randallagordon | I have an interest in creating a retail ecommerce front that provides added value via DIY video tutorials, at some point I'm certain to step on someone's patent...I want to know what I need to watch out for. | 01:39 |
| randallagordon | I've got no qualms about putting up something along those lines on my own personal site, but when it is connected to a commercial venture, it is more likely to garner negative attention from a patent holder... | 01:40 |
| Aliks | yeah | 01:42 |
| Aliks | sucks that the economy currently works that way | 01:42 |
| randallagordon | For instance, if General Hydroponics were to hold a patent on the hardware for their Waterfarm systems, and I created a DIY video showing how to recreate something very similar "from scratch" or salvaged parts, where do I stand legally? | 01:42 |
| Aliks | my personal view on that is, just try it and see what happens | 01:43 |
| Aliks | use the money you earn from actually doing it to investigate the risks of continuing to do it | 01:43 |
| Aliks | rather than incurring a lot of up front cost before you even start | 01:43 |
| randallagordon | aye, I just don't enjoy the idea of watching hard work evaporate thanks to assinine laws which weren't readily apparent from the beginning | 01:43 |
| Aliks | right | 01:43 |
| Aliks | well, you shouldnt get on anyone's radar too soon I dont think | 01:43 |
| randallagordon | but, I tend to think like you do ;) | 01:43 |
| randallagordon | I tend to swat the beehive | 01:44 |
| * Aliks nods. | 01:44 | |
| randallagordon | albeit, usually indirectly | 01:44 |
| randallagordon | anyone here have an interest in agriculture? | 01:45 |
| Aliks | I'm interested, but no knowledge and not participating in any tech development in that area | 01:45 |
| randallagordon | similar on my end, although I'm fostering it as a potential growth area | 01:45 |
| randallagordon | have you ever seen Graze? http://graze.com/ | 01:46 |
| Aliks | nice | 01:46 |
| Aliks | very cool | 01:47 |
| Aliks | I had an idea for a study spot... would be similar.. just grazing food for while you study/work | 01:47 |
| randallagordon | Ever since I came across Graze I've been wanting to see something similar stateside | 01:49 |
| randallagordon | Finally have been made aware of this project: http://www.localfoodmarketplace.com | 01:49 |
| randallagordon | My idea is to create an open source system for farmers to utilize, alongside a commercial hosted offering, ala SugarCRM and many other OS projects | 01:50 |
| randallagordon | I have a vision of what could be possible if a consumer were able to log in and view via webcam THE head of lettuce that he or she will be receving when it is ready for harvest | 01:52 |
| Aliks | lol | 01:52 |
| Aliks | nice | 01:52 |
| randallagordon | But, I'm not sure if that's just my geekiness, or if it something that a wider market would enjoy | 01:52 |
| * Aliks shrugs. | 01:53 | |
| randallagordon | More connection to the food, recognizing the hard work that goes into it, I feel is key to getting people to value what they're subsiting off of again | 01:53 |
| randallagordon | subsisting, even | 01:54 |
| randallagordon | Imagine tying it in with social networking aspects to facilitate recepie sharing, complete with an "Order the ingredients for this dish" button...subscribing to foods based off personalized nutritional plans... | 01:56 |
| Aliks | that's pretty cool | 01:56 |
| randallagordon | And on the geekier side, I dig on Controlled Environment Agriculture | 01:57 |
| randallagordon | I'm thinking anti-Krispy Creme...instead of watching doughnuts being made through behind the glass, setup a health food bar, see your live food behind glass, watch the fruits picked from the vines/limbs, the sprouts harvested and then see them immediately tossed into the blender to make your customized smoothie... | 01:58 |
| randallagordon | vertical hydro/areoponics systems, ala Omega Garden | 01:59 |
| Aliks | I like the idea of the robotically tended microfarms | 02:01 |
| Aliks | allows for a lot of local growing | 02:01 |
| randallagordon | bingo | 02:01 |
| Aliks | makes it economical on scales other than huge farms | 02:01 |
| Aliks | microrobot equivalent to the giant wheat harvester | 02:01 |
| randallagordon | I've got my own siphon based ebb & flow system setup in one of my spare bedrooms | 02:01 |
| Aliks | nice | 02:01 |
| randallagordon | I aim to continually improve on it, adding more automation as I can | 02:02 |
| randallagordon | I picked up a Teensy uC board here a while back to use to create a realtime pH/TDS/temperature monitor...eventually I intend to pair it with an embedded web server and serve up the data all pretty like using AJAX and the Rapheal visualization library | 02:02 |
| randallagordon | suppose I first need to get the sensors working ;) | 02:03 |
| * Aliks nods. | 02:05 | |
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| Aliks | almost time to test this | 02:41 |
| Aliks | took longer than I thought to scrape this part of the data | 02:41 |
| * randallagordon needs to figure out what he's doing wrong with <audio> tag embedding so Chrome will play nice... | 02:43 | |
| Aliks | is that HTML5? | 02:46 |
| Aliks | does chrome support it? | 02:46 |
| randallagordon | yep | 02:53 |
| randallagordon | it is part of webkit | 02:53 |
| randallagordon | http://randallagordon.com/jaraoke/ | 02:53 |
| randallagordon | works in FF and Safari but not Chrome | 02:53 |
| randallagordon | finally decided to take a closer look and see if I can't track down why | 02:53 |
| Aliks | gahh DNS just un-propogated or something lol | 02:54 |
| Aliks | test | 02:58 |
| randallagordon | you're a test! | 03:00 |
| randallagordon | ya know what's really cool? coming home to find your 4'x8' whiteboard covered top to bottom with Python code your fiance has hashed out while you were away... | 03:01 |
| Aliks | lol | 03:01 |
| Aliks | nice | 03:01 |
| randallagordon | She's starting to design her first game...a basic biology sim | 03:02 |
| Aliks | biology sim? | 03:07 |
| randallagordon | she's just learning the basics of programming, so a little mixture of stuff to get acquainted with loops and flow control..."build a cell, step by step" kinda thing | 03:08 |
| Aliks | nice | 03:08 |
| randallagordon | so there's a giant elif block on the whiteboard :) | 03:08 |
| Aliks | like... add lysosome... add golgi apparatus.. | 03:08 |
| randallagordon | bingo | 03:08 |
| Aliks | RoughER.MakeProtein().... | 03:09 |
| Aliks | very cool | 03:09 |
| randallagordon | That'd be the next step, getting her wrapped around classes | 03:09 |
| * Aliks nods. | 03:09 | |
| randallagordon | at the moment it looks highly procedural...but looking at the code, it appears to be functional | 03:09 |
| randallagordon | I'll have to find out tomorrow if she's typed it up and tried it yet | 03:10 |
| randallagordon | showing her that bio is becoming yet another IT field has sparked her desire to learn to code :) | 03:10 |
| randallagordon | hrmmm, I'm suddenly suspecting that the audio/Chrome issue is a mime type problem | 03:13 |
| Aliks | lol | 03:13 |
| Aliks | man, my code is acting funny.. | 03:13 |
| Utopiah | you might want to submit it to http://www.alife12.org/ | 03:15 |
| randallagordon | interesting | 03:17 |
| randallagordon | If we take the idea further (possibility of creating a multiplayer web-based near-realtime game out of it) then, perhaps | 03:17 |
| randallagordon | grrr, Chrome and audio just works goofy...need to determine if it is a Chrome/Ogg issue or if it is something goofy with the way Ogg is being served off my host | 03:25 |
| Aliks | how do you make a game out of that? | 03:26 |
| randallagordon | cellular biology? | 03:26 |
| Aliks | yeah | 03:27 |
| randallagordon | I believe she's thinking along the lines of some of the Facebook sim games | 03:28 |
| Utopiah | randallagordon: might want to check few links I gathered on http://fabien.benetou.fr/ReadingNotes/Protocells | 03:28 |
| randallagordon | ala CafeWorld | 03:28 |
| randallagordon | although that idea wouldn't be alife caliber ;) | 03:29 |
| randallagordon | But like...SimBody...manage what types of cells are put into production, game elements determine the "health" of the system | 03:30 |
| randallagordon | I'm severly lacking on the biology end of the spectrum, so she'd have to make such decisions ;) | 03:30 |
| randallagordon | so, yay, it is something on my server config that is making Chrome puke on Ogg | 03:36 |
| randallagordon | yet Safari and FF stream it just fine | 03:36 |
| randallagordon | and the MIME type is set to audio/ogg | 03:36 |
| Aliks | 2 minutes to the public test of this lol | 03:36 |
| Aliks | works!!! | 03:37 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.png | 03:38 |
| Aliks | is from ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ce/standard/2008/quintile.txt | 03:38 |
| Aliks | generated for "all quintiles" | 03:38 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_lowest.png, http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_highest.png | 03:40 |
| randallagordon | nice | 03:40 |
| Aliks | took longer than it should have but yeah, seems to work | 03:43 |
| Aliks | biggest change I can see is personal insurance and pensions | 03:47 |
| Aliks | I need to look into color coding this stuff better.. | 03:47 |
| Aliks | I wonder what google charts allows.. | 03:47 |
| Aliks | aha nce | 03:48 |
| Aliks | nice | 03:48 |
| Aliks | they allow a lot | 03:48 |
| randallagordon | yaaay, Chrome is playing nice | 03:49 |
| randallagordon | Should have thought of this, but gzipping, hence, not sending Content-Length, is apparently confusing come time to playback files browser side... ;) | 03:50 |
| randallagordon | aye, their API produces a lot of sexiness | 03:51 |
| randallagordon | look at Rapheal, too | 03:51 |
| Aliks | only thing I dont like is I can't find a way to keep the categories in order around the pie chart | 04:00 |
| Aliks | it orders them by size automatically | 04:00 |
| Aliks | btw new charts in color :) | 04:01 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_highest.png, http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_lowest.png | 04:01 |
| randallagordon | fairly easy to make sexy charts using Illustrator, too | 04:02 |
| Aliks | yeah | 04:03 |
| Aliks | but this is all plugged in automatically | 04:03 |
| Aliks | I can do like... | 04:03 |
| randallagordon | Illustrator can import CSV and XML | 04:04 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=7 | 04:04 |
| Aliks | that is the breakdown of food at home, away from home for average consumer | 04:05 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=13 | 04:05 |
| randallagordon | http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-03_2231.png | 04:05 |
| randallagordon | ahhh | 04:05 |
| Aliks | that's an even more detailed breakdown of food at home | 04:05 |
| randallagordon | very nice | 04:05 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=19 breakdown of cereals vs bakery products | 04:05 |
| Aliks | lol | 04:05 |
| randallagordon | That chart is all done using Styles, so the data is still editable | 04:06 |
| randallagordon | I <3 Illustrator | 04:06 |
| randallagordon | As you can see, I didn't have any meaningful data to chart, however ;) | 04:06 |
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| aliks3 | back | 04:07 |
| aliks3 | looked at your chart | 04:07 |
| aliks3 | so thats all styles?? | 04:07 |
| aliks3 | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=37 <-- breakdown of meat consumption (in dollars) by average family | 04:07 |
| randallagordon | Yep...3D extrude | 04:08 |
| randallagordon | small slice with a white-to-white 100-0% opacity gradiant | 04:08 |
| randallagordon | to get the 3D bevel effect | 04:09 |
| randallagordon | http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-02_1936.png | 04:09 |
| aliks3 | lol nice | 04:09 |
| aliks3 | you're getting very creative with that API | 04:09 |
| randallagordon | extruded slice...although I didn't do that one with Layer Styles... | 04:09 |
| randallagordon | Oh, these are just done with Illustrator, not Google Charts | 04:10 |
| randallagordon | although, using svg, it should be possible | 04:10 |
| randallagordon | heck, a simple div with a 24-bit alpha channel PNG would pull it off | 04:11 |
| aliks3 | ah I see | 04:12 |
| randallagordon | which, would be a nifty hack...give Google Charts that little extra flare over the next guy's charts | 04:13 |
| aliks3 | indeed | 04:14 |
| aliks3 | well, at the very least I can say I learned how to use google charts today lol | 04:14 |
| aliks3 | havent had a use for it before | 04:14 |
| aliks3 | yet another skill that will become obsolete whenever Google Charts becomes an obsolete technology | 04:15 |
| aliks3 | lol | 04:16 |
| randallagordon | wahlah: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-29_0216.png | 04:16 |
| aliks3 | whats the data for | 04:17 |
| aliks3 | what's up with Jan, Feb etc? | 04:18 |
| aliks3 | have I given you my website address BTW? I'm at your .com right now | 04:18 |
| aliks3 | I like meeting people that have their name as their .com lol | 04:19 |
| randallagordon | I just pulled it directly off the Google Charts site... | 04:19 |
| randallagordon | you haven't | 04:19 |
| aliks3 | msg'd it to you | 04:19 |
| randallagordon | I see that now :) | 04:20 |
| aliks3 | our email also has the same format | 04:20 |
| aliks3 | firstname@first&last.com | 04:20 |
| randallagordon | nice | 04:20 |
| randallagordon | I've also got randallgordon.com | 04:20 |
| randallagordon | just redirects | 04:20 |
| aliks3 | nod | 04:20 |
| aliks3 | if DNS will ever work properly I have the .net and .org of my name which will have different purposes | 04:21 |
| aliks3 | .net will be a social/professional networking site | 04:21 |
| aliks3 | .org will organize my charitable work etc. | 04:21 |
| randallagordon | easier to build a distinct "brand" around Randall A. Gordon, however | 04:21 |
| randallagordon | nice | 04:21 |
| aliks3 | not sure what my host is doing with the damn dns | 04:21 |
| aliks3 | was working a few hours ago | 04:22 |
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| randallagordon | the .com is working fine for me, at least | 04:26 |
| Aliks | yeah the .com should be, the .net/.org are more recent | 04:26 |
| Aliks | .com's been up for several years | 04:26 |
| Aliks | as you can see, the design is getting a little dated | 04:26 |
| Aliks | 800px width and all | 04:26 |
| Aliks | can't bring myself to change it though... I like the smoke stuff up top | 04:26 |
| Aliks | never can seem to get quite that same look | 04:27 |
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| randallagordon | It isn't broke, don't fix it | 04:30 |
| Aliks | yeah, other things to spend my time on | 04:31 |
| Aliks | wow, Bureau of Labor Statistics data is soooo much easier to handle | 04:31 |
| Aliks | I'll be able to get employment info tomorrow in like 1 hour | 04:31 |
| randallagordon | Reading through you musings, I like the way you think | 04:34 |
| randallagordon | The No Bureaucrats Rule is spot on | 04:35 |
| randallagordon | and Contingent Donations...<3 | 04:40 |
| Aliks | yeah I started doing those because I never have time to write full articles anymore, but I'm trying to fix that lol | 04:41 |
| Aliks | thanks though | 04:41 |
| randallagordon | I feel ya ;) | 04:41 |
| randallagordon | I have a short blurb re: donations/charity on my own blog | 04:41 |
| Aliks | I'll check it out | 04:42 |
| Aliks | yeah the thing that got me to write the Bureau thing was when I was dealing with the school district | 04:42 |
| Aliks | the college district that is | 04:42 |
| Aliks | and I was offering to write them some free software that would help students | 04:42 |
| Aliks | and they did everything possible to block me by denying access to information etc. | 04:42 |
| Aliks | eventually had to just write a scraper and plow through a ton of raw data to get what I needed | 04:43 |
| Aliks | was faster than dealing with their system | 04:43 |
| randallagordon | heh, fun | 04:43 |
| Aliks | ya | 04:43 |
| Aliks | hmm got a link to your article? I cant find it | 04:44 |
| randallagordon | http://randallagordon.com/blog/2009/01/02/thoughts-on-cash-donations/ | 04:48 |
| Aliks | I like it | 04:50 |
| Aliks | yeah like I'm having an issue with Methuselah Foundation right now | 04:50 |
| Aliks | several of us are actually on their forum | 04:50 |
| Aliks | they move too slow | 04:50 |
| Aliks | so a few of us decided to start our own similar organization | 04:50 |
| Aliks | no star power like MF has, but at least we can work efficiently | 04:50 |
| Aliks | and I like the idea of working with people who want to work efficiently | 04:50 |
| randallagordon | Aye | 04:51 |
| Aliks | booted | 04:59 |
| Aliks | I think | 04:59 |
| randallagordon | nope | 05:05 |
| randallagordon | I'm about to pass out on my desk | 05:07 |
| randallagordon | time for sleep | 05:07 |
| randallagordon | catch ya later, bro | 05:07 |
| Aliks | yo | 05:10 |
| Aliks | you still there? | 05:10 |
| Aliks | lol | 05:10 |
| Aliks | quick thing to show you | 05:10 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/bls_chart.php?id=0 | 05:10 |
| Aliks | anyway, catch you tomorrow | 05:10 |
| randallagordon | yeah, I'm still buzzing around ;) lookin' good | 05:13 |
| Aliks | yeah all BLS stuff is inputted, yay | 05:17 |
| Aliks | thats actually a pretty good chunk of data to have fun messing around with | 05:17 |
| Aliks | lol | 05:17 |
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| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_charts/animated_chart.gif :) | 05:32 |
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| kristianpaul | Utopiah: http://www.ckan.net/ | 07:36 |
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| Utopiah | kristianpaul: thanks, it's in my dataset page since March ;) | 08:20 |
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| kristianpaul | ah | 08:22 |
| kristianpaul | hehe | 08:22 |
| kristianpaul | i get lost in your dataset page atually :/ | 08:22 |
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| kanzure | hello Kuro_ | 11:08 |
| Kuro_ | Hello, kanzure. | 11:08 |
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| kanzure | 4-axis bioprinting http://www.washington.edu/dxarts/profile_research.php?who=kudla&project=EdenBumber | 11:20 |
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| kanzure | hello transplexity | 11:53 |
| * kanzure goes to find lunch. then, off to write more documentation | 11:53 | |
| transplexity | hello kanzure. I'm watching your video now. Civilizations seeds... Cool. | 11:54 |
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| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJnGH_PMWg a little amv on akira, lain, and GITS | 12:36 |
| kanzure | http://gliffy.com/ diagram utility that runs in a browser | 13:01 |
| kanzure | wtf latex doesn't natively support svg | 13:01 |
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| kanzure | transplexity: what did you think after watching the videos? | 13:16 |
| transplexity | Well... | 13:17 |
| transplexity | This friend of yours has a curious worldview, don't he? | 13:17 |
| transplexity | "In a lot of countries you don't have anything except for junk..." | 13:17 |
| transplexity | C'mon... | 13:17 |
| transplexity | I know people who would get really upset :-) | 13:18 |
| kanzure | when was that said? | 13:18 |
| transplexity | ;-) | 13:18 |
| transplexity | Oh close to the middle of the video I think | 13:18 |
| transplexity | But that's ok, he said it in a positive mood... | 13:19 |
| kanzure | there were three videos | 13:19 |
| transplexity | SKDB: Downloading hardware over the web (Hplus Summit 2009) part 1/3 | 13:19 |
| kanzure | huh | 13:19 |
| kanzure | okay | 13:19 |
| kanzure | i think you're in brazil? | 13:19 |
| transplexity | 08:22mins | 13:20 |
| transplexity | I think you're right | 13:20 |
| transplexity | And still limited to this planet... | 13:21 |
| transplexity | I like the mind hive idea | 13:21 |
| transplexity | Kind of bodies doesn't matter, you know? | 13:22 |
| transplexity | Brains only | 13:22 |
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| transplexity | I suppose there are other people around here that also live in Brazil, is this correct? | 13:25 |
| transplexity | kanzure? | 13:27 |
| kanzure | from time to time, like guido if he shows up today | 13:27 |
| kanzure | but i don't, no | 13:27 |
| transplexity | yeah I know | 13:27 |
| transplexity | the group is quite inactive today | 13:30 |
| transplexity | DIYbio, I mean | 13:31 |
| transplexity | Oh, I think guido is Spanish or something... | 13:34 |
| transplexity | Maria seems to be from Portugal | 13:34 |
| transplexity | so kanzure, what you're doing right now? | 13:38 |
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| technologiclee3 | this is a good pic for H+/DIY Bio http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?ref=mb#/photo.php?pid=30388068&id=1481304697&ref=nf&fbid=1150859939954 | 13:45 |
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| flamt_ | http://critterding.sf.net | 14:23 |
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| kanzure | power went out | 14:34 |
| thesnark | Storm? | 14:36 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/~bryan/skdb-tutorials/skdb-yaml-tut01.html | 14:36 |
| kanzure | first go at a silly tutorial. feedback welcome. | 14:37 |
| kanzure | ping pong | 14:50 |
| randallagordon | I'll go over it when I get back home this evening, looks to be a great starting point | 15:11 |
| randallagordon | IANAL, but I'd also be very careful about using the term "Lego", being that it is a registered trademark... | 15:12 |
| randallagordon | Although I would hope that the folks behind Lego would be in support of SKDB... | 15:14 |
| randallagordon | Being that they share philosophical similarities... | 15:15 |
| technologiclee3 | here is a video of the glove interface for tinmith http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/tinmith/videos/tinmith-glove-user-interface-oct2002.mpg | 15:19 |
| thesnark | randallagordon can you really make that kind of an assumption though? | 15:19 |
| kanzure | i'm not worried about lego-inc | 15:25 |
| kanzure | more concerned about the quality of the tutorial | 15:28 |
| randallagordon | thesnark, hence my usage of the word hope | 16:06 |
| randallagordon | I do not make such an assumption, therefore, my concern for future legal issues | 16:07 |
| thesnark | randallagordon right, I was just being way too focused on little details as usual | 16:07 |
| thesnark | I'd like to point out that it's a legal security risk though :) however small | 16:08 |
| randallagordon | and small thorns tend to get infected if they're not watched ;) | 16:09 |
| kanzure | anyway | 16:10 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: you said you got skdb working? and the visualizer? | 16:11 |
| kanzure | i was wondering if you had any thoughts on what the tutorial should cover. assume that someone has got to your stage. | 16:11 |
| aliks3 | yawn | 16:21 |
| randallagordon | I did indeed get it working, although I have yet to do anything beyond run the suggested lego and paths.py test scripts | 16:21 |
| aliks3 | actually I think there might be a way to make this fairly popular | 16:21 |
| aliks3 | what about marketing a product called the AnyToy | 16:22 |
| aliks3 | that creates any toy a kid wants | 16:22 |
| randallagordon | The first "stumbling" block was how to get the packages...the git clone doesn't bring them down, so I assume they're not in the main repo | 16:22 |
| aliks3 | just insert raw materials and paint | 16:22 |
| aliks3 | download new toys off the internet | 16:22 |
| randallagordon | (I'm a git newbie, btw, I've just used SVN, so this easily could be user error) | 16:22 |
| randallagordon | I ended up just wget'ing the designfiles.org/packages/lego directory | 16:23 |
| aliks3 | new longevity organization site going live around the end of today | 16:23 |
| aliks3 | just got word from my cofounder that he'll be ready | 16:24 |
| randallagordon | aliks3, I've been thinking in terms of "RedBox for stuff" | 16:24 |
| aliks3 | randallagordon, that'd be very cool | 16:24 |
| aliks3 | randallagordon thats one of the best applications I've heard so far | 16:24 |
| aliks3 | that way nobody needs to own the equipment, can let it be a little expensive for a while | 16:25 |
| aliks3 | until the price comes down to where they can buy the home version | 16:25 |
| randallagordon | yep...an MIT licensed printer would do the trick, methinks | 16:25 |
| QuantumG | "These Google guys, they want to be billionaires and rock stars and go to conferences and all that, let's see if they still want to run the buiness in two to three years." - Bill Gates, 2003. | 16:25 |
| aliks3 | hardware store could also carry a metalworking version... the AnyBolt or AnyScrew etc. | 16:25 |
| randallagordon | Hrmmm, six years later, they seem to be still rocking it | 16:27 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: they are obtainable through using the file in skdb/clients/skdb-get.py just type python skdb-get.py lego | 16:27 |
| randallagordon | excellent, I figured there was such a get command...I have yet to actually dig through the source | 16:28 |
| randallagordon | But, that would be something to have in the tut, for sure | 16:28 |
| kanzure | :) okay | 16:28 |
| randallagordon | I'll try to be a good guinea pig ;) | 16:29 |
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| aliks3 | however, for visionary people i'm a little disappointed at their results | 16:29 |
| aliks3 | like, where is Google WorldFarm, or Google Energy | 16:31 |
| kanzure | aliks3: have you seen the tutorial? | 16:31 |
| aliks3 | or Google Unpatent Office | 16:31 |
| aliks3 | and of course Google University, Google High School, etc. | 16:33 |
| aliks3 | yes | 16:34 |
| QuantumG | give it time | 16:35 |
| QuantumG | http://knol.google.com/ Google Wikipedia | 16:36 |
| randallagordon | Google still operates according to market realities | 16:36 |
| QuantumG | not to mention regulatory | 16:37 |
| randallagordon | Google "Energy" is actually maturing quite quickly, I was talking with my local power coop and they're working with Google to get smart meters rolled out | 16:37 |
| QuantumG | if they had won the white spectrum bid we'd be seeing interesting wireless stuff by now | 16:37 |
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| randallagordon | The power grid is a...special case...mainly thanks to regulatory issues, as QuantumG points out | 16:37 |
| * thesnark agrees with QuantumG, that was an important loss | 16:37 | |
| JayDugger | Hi, all. | 16:37 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: can you drop a link to the google docs page? | 16:38 |
| randallagordon | White spectrum bid? You mean the 700MHz bid? | 16:38 |
| QuantumG | they got some concessions though.. and we'll see that soon I expect | 16:38 |
| randallagordon | Whitespace is related, but separate | 16:38 |
| JayDugger | http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQY8iyNeuVgwZHBjcmZyM184NmRodHZmZ2R0&hl=en | 16:38 |
| kanzure | jay and i are editing the tutorial | 16:39 |
| QuantumG | http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=8293 | 16:39 |
| JayDugger | That link leads to a draft of YAML and SKDB: Making a Super Lego. | 16:39 |
| kanzure | i figure randall and aliks might like a shot at it | 16:39 |
| aliks3 | I read it and unfortunately I am not involved enough in it yet to have anything significant to add, kanzure | 16:39 |
| randallagordon | The whitespace end of things is moving forward decently well at this point | 16:39 |
| JayDugger | Did you catch any typos or grammatical errors? | 16:40 |
| JayDugger | Did you find any cumbersome sentences? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | aliks3: what i mainly need are people asking "wtf is this shit" | 16:40 |
| randallagordon | I'm working on my bro to see if he's interested in putting his CAD skills to work to get the repository of parts bolstered | 16:40 |
| aliks3 | http://designfiles.org/~bryan/skdb-tutorials/skdb-yaml-tut01.html talking about this right? | 16:42 |
| JayDugger | That's the original, yes. | 16:42 |
| aliks3 | yeah no issues for me | 16:42 |
| aliks3 | I didnt catch any typos but that doesnt mean there arent any | 16:42 |
| randallagordon | kanzure, given that the list of what is "alredy functional" is up to date, I think simply getting the skdb-get details added in will make for a sufficient "get up and running" tutorial...from there, I'd say focus efforts on a tutorial that explains the basics of "package creation" | 16:43 |
| aliks3 | Re: the nit pick at the start of the new draft.. | 16:43 |
| aliks3 | I dunno about "". vs "." Personally I go with "". even though it is "wrong" because it seems more logically correct | 16:44 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, that's turning into common usage, just as only pedants remember "issue" and "problem" have different meanings. | 16:45 |
| aliks3 | right | 16:45 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: okay | 16:45 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: the installation procedures are going to become radically simpler when we get a .deb created | 16:46 |
| randallagordon | I agree with aliks3 on the quotes issue, this is something that is starting to become recognized by the style manuals as well | 16:46 |
| randallagordon | kanzure, great to hear...that should make life much nicer for getting people with drafting skills involved | 16:47 |
| randallagordon | (who don't also posess coding skills) | 16:48 |
| JayDugger | Does the document's logical layout need to exactly match the "Topics covered" list? | 16:48 |
| randallagordon | wow...IRC reveals just how bad of a speller I am... | 16:49 |
| JayDugger | I.e., a discussion of SKDB, a discussion of YAML, a discussion of packages, and then HOW-TO share a Super Lego? | 16:49 |
| JayDugger | That way the document's body matches the Topics covered list. | 16:50 |
| JayDugger | Tell them what you're going to tell them, and then tell them. | 16:50 |
| kanzure | hrm | 16:53 |
| JayDugger | Does Lego need a capital "L?" | 16:53 |
| JayDugger | Does Python? | 16:53 |
| kanzure | urm | 16:54 |
| kanzure | proper nouns are supposed to be capitalized i think | 16:55 |
| kanzure | pythonocc should be pythonOCC | 16:55 |
| JayDugger | And how many hyperlinks per pargraph before they turn into noise? Only one, I think, but YMMV. | 16:55 |
| JayDugger | Proper nouns, aka names, take an initial capital. | 16:55 |
| JayDugger | CamelCase trumps that, and so does your example of pythonOCC. | 16:56 |
| randallagordon | Titles should be spelled how the creator spelled them | 16:56 |
| JayDugger | Yes. | 16:57 |
| randallagordon | I'm a stickler for that since ILoveMyCamelCase ;) | 16:58 |
| randallagordon | also, is there an skdb-list command yet? that should be alongisde -get in the tut if there is (again, sorry, I really need to familiarize myself with the source) | 16:59 |
| JayDugger | I added a few lines in the Style "Header 3" to mark the logical divisions listed in "Topics covered." | 16:59 |
| JayDugger | I feel a bit reluctant to cut-and-paste the sections from the draft under the new headers. | 17:00 |
| JayDugger | I don't want to make a mistake by mis-assigning a section. | 17:00 |
| JayDugger | But since it's a draft, and since we've some change history... | 17:00 |
| QuantumG | I've yet to read one of these "shit that happened in the last 10 years" articles that actually impressed me. | 17:01 |
| QuantumG | but I guess I'm looking for someone who actually remembers the last 10 years | 17:02 |
| QuantumG | and not just the last 2. | 17:02 |
| aliks3 | lol | 17:03 |
| aliks3 | last 10 years has actually been mildly impressive | 17:03 |
| aliks3 | I mean, CRT monitors to almost all flat screen | 17:04 |
| aliks3 | from very very basic cellphones to very complex smartphones | 17:04 |
| aliks3 | processor speed continued to increase | 17:04 |
| randallagordon | ...wow...it has been 10 years since I had a land line.... | 17:04 |
| aliks3 | digital cameras from like 1 megapixel to 12 now in a cheap model | 17:05 |
| aliks3 | 1-5 gb hard drives to 1 TB | 17:05 |
| randallagordon | 12 crappy, noisy megapixels :P | 17:05 |
| aliks3 | lol | 17:05 |
| aliks3 | randallagordon thats why you buy 100 and set them up in a 10 x 10 grid | 17:05 |
| aliks3 | and process the images lol | 17:05 |
| aliks3 | to get yourself a 500MP camera | 17:06 |
| QuantumG | so far everything you've said has been "existing technology progressed along well established development lines" | 17:06 |
| JayDugger | I suggest adopting the same typographical conventions as O'Reilly. | 17:06 |
| aliks3 | QuantumG, yeah I suppose so | 17:06 |
| randallagordon | I'll take an oldschool 4MP full-frame sensor over any of today's 12MP tiny as hell sensors :P | 17:06 |
| JayDugger | SpaceShip One? | 17:06 |
| aliks3 | QuantumG nothing disruptive, you're right | 17:06 |
| JayDugger | XCOR? | 17:06 |
| aliks3 | I blame Bush | 17:06 |
| QuantumG | yep, the X-Prize was won, that was an event - it went no-where, but it happened | 17:06 |
| JayDugger | Laser-based video projectors, though those aren't on the home entertainment market. | 17:06 |
| aliks3 | Wolfram Alpha kind of was a thing... but not all that big of a thing | 17:07 |
| randallagordon | And it is within the last 2 years ;) | 17:07 |
| aliks3 | I think the only innovations anyone here will see as important are cures for cancer, aging, AI, nanotech... | 17:07 |
| QuantumG | wide-screen tvs (plasma, lcd, etc) happened.. that's certainly new and came out of no-where | 17:07 |
| aliks3 | QuantumG, I dont know about you but over the last 15 years at least I've noticed life has gotten a lot more colorful | 17:07 |
| JayDugger | Most of the readers will probably have at least one O'Reilly book. The conventions will appear familiar and O'Reilly won't complain. | 17:08 |
| -!- aliks3 is now known as Aliks | 17:08 | |
| randallagordon | now we just need large, high resolution displays, but first we need to get the home theater nuts to shut up about not needing anything more than 2K resolution... | 17:08 |
| QuantumG | my parents were travelling around Australia for the first half of this decade.. they came back and decided to buy a tv and were like "where the hell did all this stuff come from?" | 17:08 |
| Aliks | as in, seems like all the packaging, clothes, everything has become very vibrant | 17:08 |
| Aliks | the damn towels at Target come in like 25 colors | 17:08 |
| randallagordon | Aliks, you didn't live through the 80s, did you? ;) | 17:08 |
| Aliks | I remember the 90s being a lot less vibrant feeling | 17:08 |
| Aliks | randallagordon, no I was barely aware | 17:08 |
| * randallagordon remembers NEON EVERYTHING | 17:08 | |
| Aliks | was born in 1983 | 17:08 |
| JayDugger | If you make them styles in your editing software, then you've got good consistency. | 17:08 |
| randallagordon | Ah, well, I'm only one year older ;) | 17:09 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, I remember less eyestrain after '89. | 17:09 |
| QuantumG | DVDs came out in Australia in 1999 | 17:09 |
| randallagordon | I had neon green "hammer pants", lol | 17:09 |
| randallagordon | You can't touch this! | 17:09 |
| JayDugger | therealepicureanideal--did you get the Google Docs invite I sent? | 17:10 |
| randallagordon | QuantumG, followed by optical dying circa 2009 ;) | 17:11 |
| JayDugger | Does SKDB stand for anything? | 17:11 |
| kanzure | social knowledge engineering database | 17:11 |
| randallagordon | Serial Killer DataBase ;) | 17:11 |
| Aliks | JayDugger yep | 17:11 |
| QuantumG | Gmail was launched as an invitation-only beta release on April 1, 2004 and it became available to the general public on February 7, 2007. | 17:11 |
| JayDugger | Seriously? | 17:11 |
| QuantumG | Yahoo! Mail was inaugurated in 1997 | 17:12 |
| randallagordon | ...that's something...cloud based services have come into their own over the last 10 years, but I think the next 10 will be seen as the decade they truly blossom | 17:12 |
| JayDugger | Eh... | 17:13 |
| QuantumG | I can't remember how much WiFi there was around in 2000 | 17:13 |
| QuantumG | The term Wi-Fi, first used commercially in August 1999. | 17:14 |
| randallagordon | not much, but it was getting rolling | 17:14 |
| JayDugger | as the relative costs of storage space and bandwidth trade off, you'll see the pendulum swing between "cloud" or "time-sharing" and "local" or "personal" computing. | 17:14 |
| QuantumG | The iPod is a portable media player designed and marketed by Apple and launched on October 23, 2001. | 17:15 |
| QuantumG | of course, there were mp3 players before it | 17:15 |
| randallagordon | heh, I remember wanting a Diamond Rio so bad | 17:16 |
| kanzure | i have a rio in a box somewhere | 17:16 |
| superkuh | I have two of them! | 17:16 |
| kanzure | does anyone want it? | 17:16 |
| superkuh | RioPMP 300 | 17:16 |
| QuantumG | The Rio PMP300 from Diamond Multimedia was introduced in September 1998 | 17:16 |
| JayDugger | I suggest indenting all code blocks. | 17:17 |
| superkuh | Both of the battery latch covers have broken. I'd be surprised in a PMP300 with a battery cover intact is left on this earth. | 17:17 |
| kanzure | jayokay | 17:17 |
| QuantumG | C99 started being implemented around 2002 | 17:17 |
| QuantumG | .. it took 3 years to get over the shock of how horrible a job the committee did | 17:18 |
| QuantumG | .. and it's still not fully implemented by any compiler today | 17:18 |
| JayDugger | "Sometimes you want to make new instances of legos, with particular parameters and specifications. Maybe you want a Super Lego , with a width of 20 m and a thousand pegs." | 17:18 |
| JayDugger | These two sentences have a problem. | 17:18 |
| kanzure | "The idea is to create a milling machine with a precision of 20-10 microns at cutting speeds of 20 m/s and traverse speeds of 50 m/s. The total cost of the components is to be equal or less than $20,000 USD and the first prototype will be delivered in February. " | 17:19 |
| JayDugger | The first one describes the instance of an object (I think). The second describes a hypothetical physical object (thing?) as the manufactured example of the software object. | 17:20 |
| JayDugger | Ah, kanzure, I think you missed your paste target. | 17:20 |
| JayDugger | That would be a neat tool, though. | 17:20 |
| kanzure | that's the one that jorge barrera made for mfg.com | 17:20 |
| randallagordon | OMG, gotprint.com needs to learn what AJAX is | 17:20 |
| QuantumG | After the 2002 launch of Friendster, several eUniverse employees with Friendster accounts saw its potential and decided to mimic the more popular features of the social networking website, in August 2003. | 17:21 |
| randallagordon | change an option, reload, change an option, reload, change an option, reload, GAH! | 17:21 |
| randallagordon | heh, Friendster | 17:22 |
| QuantumG | that's something that happened this decade and we're only starting to feel the real effect of.... the social networking website phenomena. | 17:22 |
| JayDugger | Those two sentences don't clearly label the transition from discussing the software object and the physical artifact. | 17:22 |
| JayDugger | For skdb developers, no big deal | 17:22 |
| JayDugger | For the possibly-naïve reader, it could act like the tripwire for a confusion mine. :) | 17:23 |
| randallagordon | I can certainly agree with that QuantumG | 17:23 |
| randallagordon | So far, social networking seems to be the best example | 17:24 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: i see | 17:24 |
| QuantumG | International Genetically Engineered Machine (iGEM) competition started in 2003. | 17:25 |
| JayDugger | You can't download hardware from the web. You can download software that will make hardware from the web. | 17:25 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: sorry, but we're here to make it happen | 17:25 |
| kanzure | that's like telling me i can't print something you scan in with your fax machine | 17:26 |
| JayDugger | :) Point taken. | 17:26 |
| JayDugger | Yes, exactly like that! | 17:26 |
| JayDugger | You need a printer, and I need a fax machine. | 17:26 |
| kanzure | well, most people have hands | 17:27 |
| kanzure | and we have to assume they have at least some resources available- these assumptions will be made clear in due time of course | 17:27 |
| randallagordon | JayDugger has a good point...it is a subtle difference, but the instatiation of an object and the object's definition are two different things | 17:27 |
| QuantumG | The human genome draft was released in 2000.......... and none of the bold predictions that resulted have come to pass :) | 17:27 |
| JayDugger | Okay, I'm with you on that. | 17:27 |
| JayDugger | Does this piece of documentation need to make the point obvious in these two sentences? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure which two sentences you're talking about | 17:27 |
| JayDugger | At this point, would working to make it clear help--ah..."Sometimes you want to make new instances of legos, with particular parameters and specifications. Maybe you want a Super Lego , with a width of 20 m and a thousand pegs." | 17:28 |
| JayDugger | Sentence one refers to the software object, I think, and sentence two refers to a physical artifact. | 17:28 |
| kanzure | oh, well, no | 17:28 |
| kanzure | i wasn't trying to distinguish the two | 17:29 |
| JayDugger | Okay, that explains it. :) | 17:29 |
| kanzure | the first sentence can apply to either hardware or software data | 17:29 |
| kanzure | the second sentence is the same, except obviously the user might be wanting to literally make it | 17:29 |
| JayDugger | So the two sentences have intentionally vague referents to reinforce the idea of fabricating a specific part from a class? | 17:30 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | http://openwetware.org/wiki/Engineering_BioBrick_vectors_from_BioBrick_parts/Colony_PCR_protocol_-_source_code | 17:31 |
| JayDugger | Alright. I misunderstood the point. | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | what's that? | 17:31 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: it's a lame attempt at "instructions" written in code | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | k | 17:32 |
| kanzure | look up "biostream" or "biocoder" | 17:32 |
| Aliks | BioCoder, yeah it sucks | 17:32 |
| kanzure | Aliks: we wanted to do something like that with skdb | 17:32 |
| kanzure | but so far i haven't figured out a good way to do it | 17:32 |
| Aliks | kanzure, I prefer my idea of just having an "ambiguity check" | 17:32 |
| kanzure | their way sucks | 17:32 |
| Aliks | [A] *click* [ 3 ambiguities found: ... ] | 17:32 |
| kanzure | here's what i was trying: | 17:32 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py | 17:32 |
| kanzure | but it's even wrose | 17:32 |
| kanzure | i want to be able to have these instructions translated into text, graphics, or 3D animation | 17:33 |
| kanzure | (i.e. virtual agents demonstrating what to be doing) | 17:33 |
| kanzure | the hard part is that you can't assume everyone who writes the instructions is going to be some computational linguist genius | 17:33 |
| Aliks | right | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | ok, say I have a vial of appropriate bacteria, a vial of a specific dna sequence (both ordered online), I wanna put the dna into the bacteria.. what's the protocol called and what equipment do I need? | 17:33 |
| kanzure | it requires some fairly hardcore programming skills :p | 17:33 |
| * Aliks nods. | 17:33 | |
| Aliks | unfortunately the world is not us lol | 17:33 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: transfection | 17:33 |
| Aliks | I suspect an ambiguity check combined with a "markup helper" might work | 17:34 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: there are many different protocols for it. you can do a calcium chloride protocol, AFM probe tip infection, gene gun (an inverted .22 caliber), ... | 17:34 |
| Aliks | for example... | 17:34 |
| Aliks | I click [A] and it says ok you're ambiguous in these 3 places, they fix it, then... | 17:34 |
| kanzure | sorry but to do an ambiguity check, you need to have the computer able to parse and understand the text | 17:34 |
| kanzure | and i don't want to do a natural language thing | 17:34 |
| Aliks | it goes through and says "you are using a world that has the following possible meanings (even though the sentence is not ambiguous to a human, but this is for an automated machine to read rather than a human)... | 17:34 |
| Aliks | er word | 17:34 |
| Aliks | kanzure, I dont think it would be that hard | 17:35 |
| Aliks | doesnt need to actually understand | 17:35 |
| Aliks | just needs to see patterns | 17:35 |
| Aliks | for example... | 17:35 |
| kanzure | english sucks though | 17:35 |
| kanzure | let's not encourage it | 17:35 |
| Aliks | just by trial and error, and finding ambiguities you personally encounter... | 17:35 |
| QuantumG | HEPES-buffered saline solution (HeBS) containing phosphate ions is combined with a calcium chloride solution containing the DNA to be transfected. When the two are combined, a fine precipitate of the positively charged calcium and the negatively charged phosphate will form, binding the DNA to be transfected on its surface. The suspension of the precipitate is then added to the cells to be transfected (usually a cell culture grown in a monolayer). | 17:35 |
| QuantumG | By a process not entirely understood, the cells take up some of the precipitate, and with it, the DNA. | 17:35 |
| Aliks | make a thing that watches for when people say "it", "the instrument", etc. | 17:35 |
| kanzure | i agree that there needs to be an ambiguity resolver | 17:35 |
| kanzure | but that doesn't resolve the issue of the underlying format or representation | 17:35 |
| Aliks | kanzure, I think I can work it out | 17:35 |
| Aliks | if you can help provide some background info | 17:36 |
| kanzure | Aliks: i suggest you read the email called "recipe representation" | 17:36 |
| kanzure | there's a link to it here: | 17:36 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/om.html | 17:36 |
| kanzure | here we go: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d# | 17:36 |
| -!- Redeemer [n=lorddeem@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 17:37 | |
| kanzure | hey Redeemer | 17:37 |
| Redeemer | Hey hey | 17:37 |
| Aliks | here's a very very rough version 1 that would at least get something started, and get people used to the idea I think... | 17:37 |
| Aliks | rules for the checker: | 17:37 |
| Aliks | section that begins "equipment", followed by a numbered list of equipment | 17:38 |
| kanzure | what is the checker processing | 17:38 |
| Aliks | section that begins "materials", followed by a numbered list of materials and their quantities | 17:38 |
| kanzure | have you seen the YAML format yet? it lists that information | 17:38 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml | 17:38 |
| QuantumG | so does this technique work on prokaryote cells? | 17:38 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/data.yaml | 17:38 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: yes there are multiple bacteria transfection protocols | 17:38 |
| Aliks | section that begins "instructions", followed by a numbered list of instructions, each instruction must list at least 1 equipment, 1 material, etc. | 17:38 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: http://protocol-online.org/ | 17:38 |
| kanzure | Aliks: so an instruction is just a list? | 17:39 |
| Aliks | well the thing is, it's a totally dumb parser at this level | 17:39 |
| kanzure | but how do you know what agent should be performing it? | 17:39 |
| Aliks | it just checks to see that you've specified an actual thing | 17:39 |
| Aliks | ah there we go, yes add in an agent then | 17:39 |
| Aliks | so then it just checks to make sure you've given all the components for a "grammatically correct" instruction | 17:40 |
| Aliks | you've got an agent doing something with (equipment) to (material) | 17:40 |
| Aliks | if you dont have those, you're being oooobviously ambiguous | 17:40 |
| Aliks | and then we can go from there to step 2 | 17:40 |
| kanzure | have you written parsers before? | 17:40 |
| Aliks | yes | 17:40 |
| kanzure | do they.. work? :) | 17:40 |
| Aliks | I wrote a PHP extension that added operator overloading to PHP | 17:41 |
| Aliks | or not extension, it parsed it and then spat out regular PHP | 17:41 |
| kanzure | php doesn't have operator overloading? | 17:41 |
| Aliks | no | 17:41 |
| kanzure | huh | 17:41 |
| Aliks | yeah it annoys e | 17:41 |
| Aliks | *me | 17:41 |
| kanzure | php5 too? | 17:41 |
| Aliks | yep and 6 | 17:41 |
| kanzure | so, if you want to write a parser for this, that would be great | 17:41 |
| kanzure | pyparsing is the common parser for python projects | 17:41 |
| Aliks | I dont have a problem with that | 17:41 |
| Aliks | I just need some example instructions as people would write them in plain english | 17:41 |
| Aliks | and then I can start working from that | 17:42 |
| kanzure | one of the ideas that i had was that it would be neat to put instructions in Cheetah templates | 17:42 |
| kanzure | the email i linked you to has some examples | 17:42 |
| Aliks | which? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | if you need more, i have a few from an F16 maintenance manual | 17:42 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d# | 17:42 |
| Aliks | Chocolate Chip Cookie Ingredients | 17:42 |
| Aliks | * 3/4 cup sugar | 17:42 |
| Aliks | ? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | there are lots of examples throughout the thread | 17:42 |
| kanzure | that was a list of material requirements for making chocolate chip cookies | 17:42 |
| Aliks | I see | 17:43 |
| kanzure | i originally got the F16 instructions from a paper: http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/ | 17:43 |
| Aliks | well, I'm coming from the perspective of chemistry | 17:43 |
| kanzure | let me see if i can find the .txt file of notes | 17:43 |
| Aliks | like.. I have these reagents, here are the steps to react them.. | 17:43 |
| kanzure | Aliks: jonathan cline was working on a parser that would take plain english biology protocols and try to parse them into something usable | 17:43 |
| kanzure | he never released his grammar files though | 17:43 |
| Aliks | hm | 17:43 |
| Aliks | wonder why not | 17:43 |
| kanzure | he's weird like that from time to time | 17:43 |
| kanzure | anyway | 17:43 |
| Aliks | maybe I shouldnt duplicate his work if he's already doing that | 17:43 |
| kanzure | if you would like a data set to play with, | 17:43 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/~bryan/protocol-online/ | 17:44 |
| kanzure | no you should probably do it. he won't share it | 17:44 |
| kanzure | i scraped protocol-online and grabbed all their protocols | 17:44 |
| kanzure | it's mostly biology-science lab protocol stuff | 17:44 |
| kanzure | but there's some chemistry IIRC | 17:44 |
| JayDugger | Which paper has the F16 instructions, kanzure? | 17:44 |
| Aliks | well the way I write the parser is going to be application specific | 17:44 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: the one by matt stone. 1999. | 17:45 |
| Aliks | so maybe I should work on your guys' application first | 17:45 |
| kanzure | Aliks: don't bother writing a parser per se. | 17:45 |
| kanzure | yes please | 17:45 |
| kanzure | so, YAML is already a "parser" | 17:45 |
| kanzure | what we need is the checker/evaluator | 17:45 |
| kanzure | check out the .yaml files http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml | 17:45 |
| kanzure | so assume that your input is a string in python | 17:45 |
| kanzure | representing (i guess?) a single step | 17:45 |
| kanzure | if you need a shell on a server i can hook you up with a login | 17:46 |
| Aliks | hmm | 17:46 |
| Aliks | input is python? | 17:46 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf | 17:46 |
| kanzure | Aliks: no | 17:46 |
| Aliks | there's no english language description of the processes? | 17:46 |
| kanzure | of what process? | 17:46 |
| Aliks | building something | 17:46 |
| kanzure | YAML is a way of writing really simple data files. it's a data serialization standard | 17:46 |
| Aliks | hmm | 17:47 |
| Aliks | ok | 17:47 |
| kanzure | the advantage is that humans can read it | 17:47 |
| Aliks | barely | 17:47 |
| kanzure | so in skdb, we say "yaml.load(contents of some file)" | 17:47 |
| kanzure | the typical way of doing this in python is with something called "pickle" | 17:47 |
| kanzure | but the problem with pickle is that you can't read the output/input | 17:47 |
| Aliks | ok so continue, what exactly would I be checking | 17:48 |
| kanzure | so, when yaml.load() runs, it looks at the input and constructs a hierarchy or list of objects (instances of whatever python classes are in your project) | 17:48 |
| kanzure | well it sounds like your idea is that the end-user or package maintainer writes down a list of instructions | 17:48 |
| kanzure | in python there is a "list" object that yaml automagically deals with | 17:48 |
| kanzure | so you would look at the list, and take the first step (the first item in the list) | 17:48 |
| kanzure | which will be a string | 17:48 |
| kanzure | and then run your magic over it | 17:48 |
| kanzure | so you don't have to write a yaml parser | 17:49 |
| kanzure | that's mainly what i'm trying ot say. there's a lot here that's already done for you | 17:49 |
| kanzure | but there's no parser for an "instruction" | 17:49 |
| kanzure | or "step" | 17:49 |
| Aliks | ok | 17:49 |
| JayDugger | I think the section "What is YAML?" needs work. | 17:49 |
| Aliks | so there's a list and there's an item in teh list | 17:50 |
| Aliks | what's in the list item? | 17:50 |
| kanzure | the list is a list of strings | 17:50 |
| kanzure | the string is a "step" or "instruction" | 17:50 |
| Aliks | ok | 17:50 |
| kanzure | so if you were totally a function-oriented programmer, you would have something like | 17:50 |
| kanzure | def my_parser(step_text_goes_here) | 17:51 |
| Aliks | so lets say I have Instructions.GetNext() | 17:51 |
| kanzure | okay | 17:51 |
| Aliks | I get the next sequential instruction | 17:51 |
| Aliks | what's it say? | 17:51 |
| JayDugger | The first sentence explains what YAML does, but the code snippet and the following text don't explain "why you should be interested in YAML for SKDB." | 17:51 |
| kanzure | Aliks: whatever the user wrote down | 17:51 |
| Aliks | what might what they wrote down look like | 17:51 |
| Aliks | for SKDB | 17:51 |
| kanzure | haha i thought you were the one proposing what it would look like | 17:51 |
| Aliks | ohhh | 17:51 |
| JayDugger | The reader goes through the code snippet, sees no YAML, and then gets the punchline: "Hidden." | 17:52 |
| Aliks | now I understand the confusion | 17:52 |
| Aliks | gotcha | 17:52 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: yes i suck | 17:52 |
| Aliks | ok so I have some flexibility here | 17:52 |
| JayDugger | Easy, kanzure. :) | 17:52 |
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| kanzure | Aliks: but know that there's some stuff in skdb already.. like, check if a machine tool is actually specified in the metadata for dependencies, etc. | 17:52 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: no no i just mean i need to improve it | 17:52 |
| Aliks | kanzure, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I'm not sure what the nature of the instructions would be | 17:52 |
| Aliks | trying to get an idea of what sort of data I'd be handling | 17:53 |
| kanzure | Aliks: my hint would be to read over that email thread, look at the link i gave jay | 17:53 |
| JayDugger | Okay. I'll comment that bit. | 17:53 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf | 17:53 |
| Aliks | ok | 17:53 |
| kanzure | also there's this data set: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/protocol-online/ | 17:53 |
| kanzure | that's mostly biology instructions, but to be honest i think this should support it in general | 17:53 |
| kanzure | there's nothing outlandishly different between the different domains of instructions anyway | 17:53 |
| Aliks | well there actually is | 17:54 |
| Aliks | like for example... | 17:54 |
| Aliks | in chemistry it's completely ok to say "add reagent to beaker, wait 5 minutes, produces HN03" | 17:54 |
| Aliks | whereas for machines... | 17:54 |
| kanzure | the real issue that i originally had with instruction generation was that i had to make a format that could be used to control machines but also humans | 17:54 |
| Aliks | you would have to say "grind at angle of 35 degrees starting at 3d point (2, 15, 19.6) with pressure 15.6 psi..." | 17:54 |
| kanzure | "add reagent to beaker, wait 5 minutes, produce HN03" <- that's something that your parser should be able to handle | 17:55 |
| Aliks | "using grindermatic version 2" | 17:55 |
| kanzure | how are those different grammars? | 17:55 |
| Aliks | thats two different domains though | 17:55 |
| Aliks | its toooootally difference | 17:55 |
| Aliks | er different | 17:55 |
| Aliks | one has spatial awareness | 17:55 |
| Aliks | and that's just one example of a different kind of awareness | 17:55 |
| kanzure | oh, wait | 17:55 |
| kanzure | well first of all, in the mechanical example, that's not something that the instructions would have | 17:55 |
| kanzure | there's something known as "gcode" for that | 17:55 |
| Aliks | ok, thats what I'm getting at | 17:55 |
| Aliks | this is what i mean by "what sort of data" | 17:56 |
| Aliks | what sort of instruction | 17:56 |
| kanzure | steps that humans will carry out | 17:56 |
| kanzure | but they must be parsed into a form that we could offload the work to a machine in the future | 17:56 |
| kanzure | or maybe not | 17:56 |
| kanzure | you know what, i got stuck with that | 17:56 |
| kanzure | so you should just avoid that | 17:56 |
| kanzure | and we can fix everything later | 17:56 |
| Aliks | well we gotta start with something | 17:56 |
| QuantumG | "salt to taste" | 17:57 |
| Aliks | I dont know where to draw the line | 17:57 |
| Aliks | like, if I'm not saying.. | 17:57 |
| Aliks | "grind at angle of 35 degrees starting at 3d point (2, 15, 19.6) with pressure 15.6 psi..." | 17:57 |
| Aliks | then what am I saying? | 17:57 |
| Aliks | what's the instruction going to be like that I should actually handle? | 17:57 |
| kanzure | Aliks: "connect lego 1 to lego 2 at pin.." | 17:57 |
| Aliks | ok | 17:57 |
| kanzure | or "apply a cold weld to the junction" | 17:58 |
| kanzure | if i had an example corpus i would have solved a lot of this :p | 17:58 |
| Aliks | yes that's a good idea | 17:58 |
| Aliks | start now | 17:58 |
| Aliks | like, whenever you find an example, just throw it in a page somewhere | 17:58 |
| Aliks | lol | 17:58 |
| Aliks | in 6 months it will be huge | 17:58 |
| Aliks | and very useful | 17:58 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with the email thread i linked you to? | 17:58 |
| Aliks | kanzure, it wasnt specific to your domain | 17:59 |
| Aliks | and I dont want to waste work handling the grammar of baking cookies | 17:59 |
| kanzure | focus on the general parser first | 17:59 |
| Aliks | general will takes 56 years | 17:59 |
| Aliks | when do you want this done? | 17:59 |
| Aliks | lol | 17:59 |
| kanzure | putting a cookie in an oven is the same thing as putting anything else in an oven | 17:59 |
| Aliks | ok | 17:59 |
| Aliks | yeah I just didnt know if it needed spatial awareness etc. | 17:59 |
| Aliks | that kind of thing | 17:59 |
| Aliks | if it's just "do x to y" then that's easy | 17:59 |
| Aliks | will work something up | 17:59 |
| kanzure | let's assume no spatial awareness | 17:59 |
| Aliks | just assume version 1 will totally suck | 18:00 |
| Aliks | but by having version 1 you'll have something to point at | 18:00 |
| Aliks | and say "hey we need this other thing" | 18:00 |
| kanzure | do you have skdb installed and working yet? | 18:00 |
| Aliks | no | 18:00 |
| Aliks | not planning on it lol | 18:00 |
| kanzure | do you have an ubuntu or debian machine somewhere? | 18:00 |
| Aliks | no | 18:00 |
| Aliks | not planning on it in the near future | 18:00 |
| kanzure | how would you know if your code is working though? | 18:00 |
| Aliks | can work on an example to test the concept | 18:01 |
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| kanzure | JayDugger: btw, i really appreciate your help on the tutorial :) | 18:02 |
| Aliks | hang on I'll work something quick up to show you what I'm talking about in the next 15 min or so | 18:03 |
| JayDugger | You're welcome. I offered, after all. | 18:03 |
| kanzure | your comments are spot-on btw | 18:03 |
| kanzure | "not sure if this is really how things are supposed to work.." | 18:03 |
| kanzure | well, you're usually right | 18:03 |
| kanzure | it's really meant to be as simple as you're imagining it to be :) | 18:04 |
| JayDugger | Good night, all. | 18:08 |
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| kanzure | anything yet? | 18:12 |
| Aliks | about 50% done | 18:15 |
| Aliks | (with a simple test) | 18:15 |
| Aliks | almost | 18:19 |
| Aliks | making an example file for testing purposes | 18:23 |
| Aliks | testing 1 sec | 18:26 |
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| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php | 18:31 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instructions.txt | 18:31 |
| kanzure | why did you come up with your own format | 18:31 |
| kanzure | i thought i explained that someone already di that for you | 18:32 |
| kanzure | *did | 18:32 |
| Aliks | yeah but this is just for my testing purposes | 18:32 |
| kanzure | but why would you put in more unknowns? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | anyway, can you cp the php file to a .php.txt or something? | 18:32 |
| Aliks | well, I assume instructions come in the same way either way | 18:32 |
| Aliks | done | 18:32 |
| Aliks | just add .txt | 18:32 |
| kanzure | hm | 18:33 |
| Aliks | weird | 18:33 |
| Aliks | one sec | 18:33 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:33 |
| Aliks | its all scrambled let me fix it | 18:33 |
| kanzure | no it's good | 18:33 |
| kanzure | (some of us don't actually use browsers) | 18:34 |
| Aliks | http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php.htm | 18:34 |
| kanzure | er this isn't a parser | 18:34 |
| Aliks | or that | 18:34 |
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| Aliks | no it isnt | 18:34 |
| Aliks | but it works | 18:34 |
| kanzure | so does windows.. supposedly. | 18:34 |
| Aliks | its a checker | 18:34 |
| Aliks | so now like I said, its totally horrible lol | 18:34 |
| Aliks | so point out what I did wrong | 18:34 |
| Aliks | so I can get what you need | 18:35 |
| kanzure | well it's just a giant for loop | 18:35 |
| Aliks | does it matter how its implemented if it works? | 18:35 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:35 |
| Aliks | all line-item processing code ultimately is a for loop | 18:35 |
| kanzure | i'm not dissing for loops necessarily | 18:35 |
| Aliks | line 1, line 2, line 3... | 18:35 |
| kanzure | um | 18:35 |
| kanzure | do you know how token parsers work? | 18:35 |
| Aliks | yes | 18:35 |
| kanzure | and you know that this isn't one, right? | 18:35 |
| Aliks | find the tokens, add to symbol table | 18:35 |
| Aliks | yacc/lexx etc | 18:35 |
| Aliks | seems overkill for this | 18:36 |
| Aliks | we can do something very similar without the headache | 18:36 |
| kanzure | i guess everyone will use their own personal hammer | 18:36 |
| kanzure | yes but someone already went to the trouble with http://yaml.org/ http://pyyaml.org/ | 18:36 |
| Aliks | well this is just to demonstrate the method | 18:36 |
| kanzure | oh well | 18:36 |
| kanzure | sorry i'm not more enthusiastic | 18:37 |
| Aliks | well you werent meant to be | 18:37 |
| kanzure | i'm just jaded and old | 18:37 |
| Aliks | this is a shitty 15 minute thing | 18:37 |
| Aliks | this is why I did it | 18:37 |
| Aliks | now I see the YAML spec | 18:37 |
| kanzure | there's already a php module for yaml | 18:37 |
| kanzure | http://code.google.com/p/spyc/ | 18:37 |
| Aliks | spec is making more sense than the snippets were | 18:37 |
| kanzure | er, yaml module for php | 18:37 |
| Aliks | more importantly though, this shows that an instruction that doesnt have equipment or material in it gets flagged | 18:38 |
| Aliks | which was really the point | 18:38 |
| kanzure | and besides, you're just checking if a material appears in the string (based off of name) | 18:38 |
| Aliks | yes | 18:38 |
| Aliks | thats a very simple first thing to check | 18:38 |
| kanzure | but i thought the idea was to check if the string makes sense | 18:38 |
| Aliks | like I said, this is meant to suck | 18:38 |
| kanzure | based off of a grammar? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | okay | 18:39 |
| Aliks | it will, eventually | 18:39 |
| QuantumG | gah | 18:39 |
| kanzure | well that's why i'm being so much of an ass right now | 18:39 |
| kanzure | i don't think extending this method is good | 18:39 |
| Aliks | I cant build a grammar with no examples | 18:39 |
| kanzure | so it shouldn't be extended | 18:39 |
| kanzure | but i agree that there needs to be something that checks if it makes sense | 18:39 |
| kanzure | the output that you have is good | 18:39 |
| kanzure | i mean, line by line "yep it's good" | 18:39 |
| QuantumG | I just replied to someone off-list and they replied to list, quoting my email in entirety. | 18:39 |
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| QuantumG | what a dipshit | 18:39 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: aren't people just wonderful | 18:39 |
| Aliks | kanzure, so how would you want it to work differently, give me some input | 18:40 |
| Aliks | but tell me how you want it to work | 18:40 |
| Aliks | not how you want it to do it | 18:40 |
| kanzure | give me a few moments | 18:40 |
| Aliks | k | 18:40 |
| Aliks | output is all that matters, IMO | 18:40 |
| Aliks | everything else is ideological fluff | 18:40 |
| kanzure | um, no | 18:40 |
| kanzure | with that attitude, you'd rather make a .stl instead of a CAD model | 18:41 |
| Aliks | .stl? | 18:41 |
| kanzure | representation has a meaning you know :) | 18:41 |
| kanzure | .stl is a mesh | 18:41 |
| kanzure | CAD models can be converted to a mesh (.stl and then some) | 18:41 |
| Aliks | well it depends on what you're using it for | 18:41 |
| Aliks | I heard you saying yesterday .stl has problems | 18:41 |
| kanzure | yes and if you have a good representation, it's reusable | 18:41 |
| Aliks | so that's a legitimate reason for not using .stl | 18:41 |
| Aliks | but that's still in the realm of "output" in my view | 18:41 |
| Aliks | usefulness | 18:41 |
| kanzure | are you familiar with unit tests | 18:42 |
| Aliks | yes | 18:42 |
| kanzure | anyway, here's what i was thinking: | 18:42 |
| Aliks | sorry, I have an odd style... lol | 18:42 |
| Aliks | my style is... throw together something shitty, then iteratively fix it | 18:42 |
| kanzure | for each line in the instruction set, run the line through a generic parser | 18:42 |
| kanzure | the parser will spit out an abstract tree of steps (there's a class for this in skdb IIRC) | 18:43 |
| kanzure | then, we'll throw that to the wind and have something run through a list of different checks | 18:43 |
| kanzure | i.e. to make sure the structure of the tree is useful, meaningful, whatever | 18:43 |
| Aliks | ok so we would figure out verb connections, subject, object, etc | 18:43 |
| kanzure | i find that instructions tend to be more like an upside-down tree, where the root is the final product | 18:43 |
| Aliks | well, that may turn out to be completely necessary | 18:44 |
| Aliks | but I think we can get something that works reasonably well for what we actually want to accomplish within a matter of days by not overcomplicating it like that | 18:44 |
| kanzure | so, checking that all mentioned materials exist, and that each step has all necessary components, would be a particular check on the abstract tree | 18:44 |
| kanzure | this isn't complicated | 18:44 |
| Aliks | otherwise I'm gonna have to scrape the OED and build an english grammar and all that | 18:44 |
| Aliks | unless you mean something else | 18:44 |
| kanzure | OED? | 18:44 |
| Aliks | oxford english dictionary | 18:44 |
| kanzure | oh boy | 18:44 |
| kanzure | yeah | 18:44 |
| kanzure | no thanks | 18:44 |
| Aliks | lol | 18:44 |
| Aliks | ok so maybe I'm misunderstanding you | 18:44 |
| Aliks | ok so lets add some complexity to this one step at a time... | 18:45 |
| Aliks | " each step has all necessary components", entails? | 18:45 |
| Aliks | we know each step needs materials and equipment. if we want to add complexity to that we need to add some context | 18:46 |
| kanzure | i'm sorry, by "components" i meant that it had tokens that represent or refer to tools, materials, equipment | 18:46 |
| Aliks | right | 18:46 |
| Aliks | ok so here's where I'm at in my thinking about that | 18:46 |
| Aliks | the reason I didn't do any more complicated check yet was partly to illustrate a point... | 18:46 |
| Aliks | given that we know nothing about the materials and nothing about the equipment, ie. have no context | 18:46 |
| Aliks | we cannot say whether there should be 2 or 5 or 12 materials listed | 18:46 |
| kanzure | actually we do know about the equipment | 18:46 |
| Aliks | or any relationship they should have to the equipment | 18:46 |
| kanzure | that's what skdb is all about :p | 18:47 |
| kanzure | that data is available | 18:47 |
| kanzure | we know each part, tool, piece of equipment, how many ports/interfaces it has | 18:47 |
| Aliks | great | 18:47 |
| Aliks | so show me some of that data | 18:47 |
| kanzure | and also acceptable ranges of inputs (like don't give 200V to your atmel AVR) | 18:47 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml | 18:47 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/packages/screw/metadata.yaml | 18:47 |
| Aliks | ok now I'm getting a better picture | 18:48 |
| Aliks | startin to come together | 18:48 |
| Aliks | ok so next to-do is to read in YAML using that code from the link you gave me | 18:48 |
| Aliks | and insert that instead of the explode( lines) | 18:48 |
| kanzure | why do it in php? | 18:48 |
| Aliks | and then I can get some more detailed data about the interfaces | 18:48 |
| kanzure | we already have all this code written | 18:48 |
| Aliks | kanzure, because it's what I know | 18:48 |
| Aliks | if you want to wait 4 weeks while I learn some python in my spare time.. | 18:48 |
| kanzure | it won't take you 4 weeks | 18:48 |
| Aliks | I'm more doing this as a test of concept rather than a final implementation | 18:49 |
| Aliks | ok but keep in mind there aer limits on my time | 18:49 |
| Aliks | like.. 1 week learning python is a week I dont write my patent, or a week I dont build a website etc. | 18:49 |
| Aliks | if I can do a concept demo in a language I already know hta'ts more efficient | 18:49 |
| Aliks | we dont have endless time y'know? | 18:49 |
| Aliks | but... | 18:50 |
| kanzure | it's kind of like me storming into your php project and saying everyone should switch to ruby | 18:50 |
| Aliks | I'm not saying you should switch to php | 18:50 |
| kanzure | and then writing code like a madman that doesn't actually do anything | 18:50 |
| Aliks | or even use this | 18:50 |
| kanzure | then why are you bothering | 18:50 |
| Aliks | this is just a demo | 18:50 |
| Aliks | to show concept | 18:50 |
| kanzure | but we already discussed the concept? | 18:50 |
| Aliks | I have spent total 20 minutes so far | 18:50 |
| kanzure | sigh | 18:50 |
| Aliks | if you let it play out a bit I think you'd be less dissatisfied | 18:50 |
| Aliks | but alright | 18:50 |
| Aliks | show me your code | 18:50 |
| kanzure | did you look at my links? | 18:50 |
| Aliks | dude keep in mind I know 0 about your project | 18:50 |
| Aliks | yes | 18:51 |
| kanzure | wtf | 18:51 |
| kanzure | i thought you watched the videos? | 18:51 |
| Aliks | I did | 18:51 |
| Aliks | but that doesnt show me your code base | 18:51 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/skdb/core/ is the main "core" of the project | 18:51 |
| Aliks | I know very little about what work has already been done | 18:51 |
| Aliks | ok | 18:51 |
| Aliks | reading | 18:51 |
| kanzure | we have packages that are loaded up into python objects (just because we chose python) | 18:51 |
| kanzure | these python objects are things like legos, screws, milling machines, centrifuges | 18:52 |
| kanzure | these objects are given in the 'packages', which have instructions for building, based off of a list of 'dependencies' | 18:52 |
| kanzure | the "instructions" aren't actually there of course ;-) | 18:52 |
| kanzure | because we only had a few ideas like: | 18:52 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py | 18:52 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/pie.py | 18:52 |
| kanzure | and now: http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php.txt | 18:52 |
| Aliks | ok trying to get a handle on all this... | 18:53 |
| kanzure | anything in particular? | 18:53 |
| Aliks | yeah trying to get a sense of what your code all does, and where mine would fit in in your .py | 18:54 |
| randallagordon | aye, that tended to be my stumbling block approaching SKDB...I get the overall idea, but it was difficult determining just what was already functional and available | 18:54 |
| kanzure | if you were to write code that validated instructions and made sure they weren't bullshit or asking for impossible units/things, | 18:54 |
| kanzure | it would probably go in skdb/core/package.py somewhere in the Package class | 18:54 |
| kanzure | because instructions are in a per-package basis | 18:55 |
| kanzure | and i would expect each package to have different instructions :) | 18:55 |
| kanzure | originally i was thinking that we should do instructions with Cheetah templates | 18:55 |
| randallagordon | this new tutorial at least let's newcomers see something that is functional--that's a huge motivator | 18:55 |
| kanzure | it's yet-another-template-system | 18:55 |
| kanzure | it has the usual capabilities. inline python to do last-minute calculations. isinclude statements to import other files | 18:55 |
| kanzure | http://cheetahtemplate.org/ | 18:56 |
| kanzure | so that way you could write something in the instructions that depends on the instructions for another piece of equipment | 18:56 |
| kanzure | like if you're making a pie, you need to put the pie in the oven | 18:56 |
| kanzure | and if you don't have an oven (and you're willing to make one), then the instructions for the oven should be included in an output | 18:56 |
| kanzure | but again this is end-user stuff | 18:57 |
| kanzure | instruction parsing, sense-checking, etc. is much more important | 18:57 |
| Aliks | bleh where is there a 15 minute intro to python's essential functions and features | 18:58 |
| kanzure | Aliks: try this? http://www.poromenos.org/tutorials/python | 18:58 |
| kanzure | i suggest you get a good interpreter/interactive shell.. my favorite is http://bpython-interpreter.org/ | 18:59 |
| kanzure | it's an ncurses python interpreter, so it pops up and tells you member methods, variables, function docstrings, .. | 18:59 |
| Aliks | ok well this is all the technical implementation details which we can worry about another time | 19:00 |
| Aliks | I can always hire some Indian code monkey to translate PHP to Python if necessary | 19:01 |
| Aliks | lets talk logic of how it works | 19:01 |
| Aliks | so I need YAML.. lets see | 19:01 |
| kanzure | well if you use yaml you'll need to rewrite the python code for the classes in skdb | 19:01 |
| kanzure | for instance, we use a "!part" tag in yaml, which maeans that the object is of type Part (defined in skdb/core/part.py) | 19:02 |
| Aliks | I thought you were currently using YAML | 19:02 |
| kanzure | yes | 19:02 |
| Aliks | k afk a sec workin on something | 19:04 |
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| Aliks | Bad group name: m.Bad group name: m. | 19:10 |
| Aliks | any idea what that means? | 19:10 |
| Aliks | doesnt error out for spyc.yaml, so there might be a syntax error in your .yaml | 19:15 |
| Aliks | for lego | 19:15 |
| Aliks | yeah no error for screw | 19:15 |
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| kanzure | that error doesn't make sense to me | 19:25 |
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| kanzure | http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1483 cathal's dremelfuge .. unfortunately only .stl and .scad files | 20:28 |
| kanzure | if my audio was working i'd see what andrew is saying here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSY9EmXYMBE&feature=related | 20:30 |
| genehacker | it's singu | 20:30 |
| ybit | er, i have that video on my server that is down | 20:48 |
| ybit | same ol stuff | 20:48 |
| kanzure | nothing enew? | 20:48 |
| ybit | nope | 20:48 |
| ybit | just talking about biobricks | 20:48 |
| ybit | giving an intro | 20:49 |
| kanzure | how is that diy? | 20:49 |
| ybit | ..to drew endy and george church | 20:49 |
| kanzure | oh well | 20:49 |
| ybit | there may be more, i closed it after i realized i had already saw it | 20:49 |
| ybit | a super lego? | 20:50 |
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| kanzure | hello Tro | 20:50 |
| kanzure | hrm, i'm really lagging tonight | 20:50 |
| kanzure | ah that's better. forgot that my server rebooted. | 20:51 |
| Trooem | is Tro me? | 20:55 |
| Trooem | hahaha coool | 20:55 |
| Trooem | hey | 20:55 |
| kanzure | i tried typing Tro<tab> | 20:55 |
| kanzure | Trooem: | 20:55 |
| kanzure | there we go. | 20:55 |
| Trooem | yup i gotta watch your vids | 20:56 |
| genehacker | are you sure you didn't run out of blood of the innocents for your time warner connection? | 20:56 |
| genehacker | kanzure? | 20:56 |
| kanzure | i filled it up this morning | 20:56 |
| kanzure | so that can't be it | 20:56 |
| genehacker | oh dear | 20:56 |
| genehacker | so about the hackerspace meeting, you have absolutely no internet there? | 20:57 |
| kanzure | that's right | 20:57 |
| CIA-52 | skdb: kanzure * r dd8abea /doc/proposals/ (instruction_checker.php instructions.txt): prototype instruction checker in php (why?) | 20:59 |
| Trooem | you guys should use one of them remote USB remote internet, if it's a isolated place | 21:01 |
| Trooem | but you get like 500mb per month bandwidth so.. | 21:01 |
| kanzure | nah it's not isolated | 21:01 |
| Trooem | haha nvm | 21:01 |
| kanzure | the guy's just lazy to pay for internet | 21:01 |
| Trooem | oh lazy | 21:02 |
| Trooem | no cure for that... | 21:02 |
| kanzure | a kick in the ass maybe? | 21:02 |
| Trooem | maybe maybe. or give him a reason to be greedy about... | 21:02 |
| Trooem | motivate hehe | 21:02 |
| kanzure | ybit: what did you think about the tutorial? | 21:04 |
| kanzure | it's not finished yet | 21:04 |
| kanzure | jay was very helpful today | 21:04 |
| genehacker | perhaps some one going to the meeting has one of those USB phone network internet things | 21:04 |
| ybit | kanzure: ~~ | 21:05 |
| ybit | okay, then if it's not finished, it isn't terrible | 21:05 |
| kanzure | genehacker: or you could just come back to austin | 21:05 |
| kanzure | john griessen (sensor network dood, among other things), james jones (cubespawn), martin bogomolni, les filip, ratha, a few others are going to be there | 21:06 |
| genehacker | that is unlikely | 21:07 |
| kanzure | oh, and jerry rutherford (supreme overlord of the austin robot group) | 21:07 |
| ybit | genehacker: where are you currently? | 21:09 |
| genehacker | Dallas | 21:10 |
| genehacker | currently snowbound too, but that's not an issue | 21:10 |
| kanzure | ybit: was wondering if you had some suggestions about what i should be writing about | 21:11 |
| ybit | er...not atm | 21:11 |
| kanzure | i don't think you've used any of the internal skdb tools yet (in python) | 21:11 |
| kanzure | so your questions are probably as good as any other | 21:12 |
| ybit | thanks for reminding me of what it isi was going to do | 21:12 |
| kanzure | and what was that? | 21:12 |
| ybit | internal sdb tools, such as? | 21:12 |
| kanzure | the classes, functions | 21:12 |
| ybit | .deb of course | 21:12 |
| kanzure | "of course" | 21:12 |
| ybit | you are free to fire me on jan 1 if i'm so terrible to not have it by then | 21:13 |
| kanzure | didn't you say that three months ago? | 21:13 |
| ybit | hah, sure | 21:14 |
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| ybit | hey klord | 21:16 |
| kanzure | hey klord | 21:16 |
| kanzure | hey, stop reading my brains | 21:16 |
| klord | hey | 21:16 |
| kanzure | Trooem: i met klord at a local austin event, turns out he's into affiliate marketing | 21:17 |
| klord | heh, trying at least | 21:17 |
| kanzure | er, for everyone else, he's a programmer and server admin dood :) | 21:18 |
| genehacker | was he at the last meeting ? | 21:18 |
| kanzure | what meeting? | 21:18 |
| kanzure | i mean, which one | 21:19 |
| genehacker | the one at your house | 21:19 |
| kanzure | nah | 21:19 |
| klord | was that the meeting you sent out to the 3ds list? | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i hosted some fun people on a saturday to hang out and do some programming | 21:20 |
| kanzure | anyway that was a few weeks ago | 21:20 |
| kanzure | Trooem: are you alive? | 21:20 |
| klord | ah, cool | 21:21 |
| QuantumG | "supercold frozen hydrogen" I don't think that means what they think it does | 21:23 |
| kanzure | bose-einstein condensate? | 21:24 |
| QuantumG | nah, they just meant liquid hydrogen | 21:24 |
| genehacker | not solid hydrogen | 21:26 |
| genehacker | *metallic solid hydrogen | 21:26 |
| QuantumG | hmm.. no, seems they had it right | 21:28 |
| QuantumG | http://wise.ssl.berkeley.edu/mission.html | 21:28 |
| QuantumG | "filled with solid hydrogen" | 21:29 |
| QuantumG | 15K | 21:29 |
| Trooem | kanzure: i am. was just talking with the associate, figured out some stuff. | 21:36 |
| ybit | someone visit http://openmanufacturing.org please | 21:37 |
| Trooem | i am going to send you logins to whichever pages we rank, so you can attach google analytics to it. | 21:37 |
| ybit | wanting to see how accurate the google anlytics are. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | google analytics is terribly inaccurate | 21:37 |
| kanzure | i had 200 people visit a page on the 25th, and google registered just 2 views | 21:38 |
| ybit | this is what i gather | 21:38 |
| Trooem | oh | 21:38 |
| Trooem | there's many free tools at that bh forum i think maybe... | 21:38 |
| Trooem | or you can always outsource with an idea. :) | 21:39 |
| klord | blackhatworld.com? | 21:41 |
| kanzure | probably | 21:41 |
| Trooem | klord? affiliate marketer? cool | 21:43 |
| klord | yeah, some interesting stuff on there | 21:43 |
| Trooem | yeah... people aren't that courteous as they suggest in the postings though. haha... | 21:44 |
| Trooem | klord, whats your primary source of traffic? | 21:45 |
| Trooem | is that too personal? | 21:45 |
| Trooem | :)))) | 21:45 |
| klord | nah. i've really just dabbled. i've tried advertising CPA offers with CPC media buys but have never been able to make it work profit wise | 21:46 |
| klord | i'm building a twitter bot system at the moment | 21:46 |
| Trooem | media buys. cool. | 21:47 |
| Trooem | CPA networks cheat people off commission so badly... one needs to cheat them too hahaha | 21:47 |
| klord | yeah, trying to come up with some more cheap/free ways of generating traffic | 21:49 |
| klord | any legit ones? I've tried copeac / azoogle | 21:49 |
| klord | what types of affiliate programs do you do? | 21:50 |
| Trooem | i've dabbled with all kinds but, any good results were from a particular information product | 21:53 |
| Trooem | which was about, well, making money haha | 21:53 |
| Trooem | money sells money | 21:53 |
| klord | yeah, that's what i've heard | 21:53 |
| klord | and see advertised a lot | 21:53 |
| klord | and have also been a sucker in buying | 21:53 |
| klord | lol | 21:54 |
| Trooem | me too, after being suckered in buying different info products, i realized that only trust-worthy ones are people who 'coach' personally 1 on 1. | 21:54 |
| kanzure | hm mplayer is acting up and playing my movies in french today | 21:55 |
| Trooem | people who hide behind printed material is likely to have BS content | 21:55 |
| danielfalck | kanzure: did the movie ratings go from G to R? | 21:56 |
| Trooem | you gotta actually see their faces, be close enough to punch them, and they will indeed say the truth. hahahaha | 21:56 |
| Trooem | hplus members should all go see Avatar. | 21:56 |
| Trooem | that may be our future. LOL | 21:56 |
| Trooem | which alien lifeform would you like to be ? | 21:57 |
| klord | haha, true..makes sense | 21:57 |
| klord | are you local to austin then too? | 21:57 |
| Trooem | no i'm in Canada, vancouver. | 21:57 |
| klord | ah, cool | 21:57 |
| Trooem | i'll be meeting Kanzure soon :). | 21:57 |
| kanzure | uh oh what? | 21:58 |
| Trooem | well hopefully | 21:58 |
| kanzure | oh right | 21:58 |
| kanzure | just making sure i wasn't supposed to pick you up at the airport tomorrow or something | 21:58 |
| Trooem | hahaha | 21:58 |
| klord | lol | 21:58 |
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| kanzure | hm the dvd box says that the languages are english and japanese | 22:00 |
| kanzure | but it wasn't english or japanese | 22:00 |
| Trooem | yup LOL. i got there in Dallas airport once, and i wrote this cab in form of a van, these black guys were driving it, and though i suspiciously got in there with some other folks, i kinda felt i was being kidnapped... are they taking me to a remote place? | 22:00 |
| Trooem | LOL it was my first time there, to hilton hotel for this bootcamp meeting | 22:00 |
| klord | hahah | 22:01 |
| klord | the airport is about the furthest i've ever gone in dallas | 22:01 |
| Trooem | kanzure, if you're using it to play movies, try this player: | 22:01 |
| Trooem | http://www.gomlab.com/eng/GMP_download.html | 22:01 |
| Trooem | never makes errors, and plays it streaming with right setting | 22:02 |
| Trooem | it's good. better than divx... | 22:02 |
| Trooem | player. | 22:02 |
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| kanzure | mplayer is the standard linux player | 22:02 |
| kanzure | i just need to figure out which title on the disc has the english version | 22:02 |
| Trooem | ow ok | 22:03 |
| klord | what about vlc? can throw pretty much anything at that | 22:03 |
| kanzure | cool, i just had to pass -alang en to mplayer | 22:04 |
| kanzure | mplayer dvd://1 -chapter 2 -softvol -softvol-max 500 -alang en | 22:04 |
| Aliks | http://www.campaignagainstaging.org/ is officially launched | 22:04 |
| Aliks | as of 30 minutes ago | 22:04 |
| kanzure | "the matrix: reloaded" is much better in japanese though | 22:04 |
| kanzure | maybe i should switch back | 22:04 |
| kanzure | congrats Aliks | 22:04 |
| Trooem | you speak japanese kanzure? | 22:04 |
| kanzure | campaign against the aging, huh Aliks? :) | 22:04 |
| kanzure | Trooem: no, but i pretend i do | 22:05 |
| Trooem | me too.. | 22:05 |
| Aliks | lol kanzure | 22:05 |
| Aliks | kanzure, yeah we decided to keep it that way | 22:05 |
| genehacker | I'm in dallas ask me anything | 22:08 |
| klord | oh wait, i did go further than the airport | 22:13 |
| klord | worked in the datacenter for a week in grapevine | 22:13 |
| genehacker | oh that's a shame, you must not have seen the bladerunner tv screen buildings or the church the size of an arcology | 22:16 |
| -!- genehacker is now known as genehackersolder | 22:17 | |
| Trooem | klord: cool..... | 22:18 |
| Trooem | why is everything in texas so damn big? | 22:19 |
| Trooem | haha hilton hotel there is like.... | 22:19 |
| Trooem | tower of babel | 22:19 |
| Trooem | and i've actually witnessed people wearing cowboy hats mwa hahahaha | 22:20 |
| Trooem | :))))))) gtg research. | 22:20 |
| Trooem | nope gtg pick up some groceries. vancouver is.. cold, damp and frosty. | 22:21 |
| genehackersolder | heh I drive by buffalos and longhorns nearly every day | 22:21 |
| klord | genehackersolder: nah, i didn't really make it out of the hotel and datacenter much except for downtown grapevine | 22:21 |
| QuantumG | anyone know what temperature the reprap melts the working polymer to? | 22:21 |
| klord | Trooem: heh, yeah austin isn't like that so much...but i've seen it somewhere. if you venture about 35 min outside of austin you get that as well as some amazing bbq | 22:22 |
| genehackersolder | try asking #reprap | 22:22 |
| genehackersolder | I think it's about 200 celsius | 22:23 |
| QuantumG | that's what I thought but all I've found is "maximum of 250C" | 22:23 |
| genehackersolder | http://dev.forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,31772,31772 | 22:23 |
| genehackersolder | 240C | 22:23 |
| genehackersolder | why do you want to know? | 22:24 |
| QuantumG | just thought it might be significantly lower | 22:24 |
| QuantumG | but that does sound fine | 22:25 |
| genehackersolder | well if you are considering something structural then you have to take softening into account... | 22:25 |
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| genehackersolder | *temperature softening | 22:25 |
| QuantumG | yeah, was considering what kind of bacteria would be able to survive being bubbled through hot ABS/HDPE/PLA | 22:26 |
| genehackersolder | oh | 22:27 |
| genehackersolder | why do you want to extrude bacteria in plastic? | 22:27 |
| genehackersolder | what are bacteria doing in plastic there's nothing for them to eat | 22:28 |
| genehackersolder | *unless it's PLA | 22:28 |
| QuantumG | presumably you'd mix some food in too :) | 22:30 |
| QuantumG | just trying to think about programmable bacteria doing something interesting in a 3d printed object.. | 22:31 |
| genehackersolder | well I guess you could put in tiny microchannels then inject bacteria and supply food to them | 22:35 |
| genehackersolder | perhaps you could make a smell dispenser using biobricked e.coli | 22:36 |
| QuantumG | now that's a nice idea | 22:36 |
| QuantumG | reprap needs automatic changeable heads | 22:37 |
| QuantumG | ... presuming that it doesn't already | 22:37 |
| genehackersolder | it doesn | 22:38 |
| QuantumG | so there's a bunch of you on here that are apparently "gene hackers" | 22:39 |
| genehackersolder | there's a design for one that 'works' | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | (or "biohacker") | 22:39 |
| genehackersolder | it's just my nickname | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | xp_prg isn't on right now | 22:39 |
| genehackersolder | there are no true 'biohackers' yet | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | pfft. | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | the kids that compete in the iGEM every year are biohackers in my book. | 22:40 |
| genehackersolder | they're funded by universities | 22:40 |
| QuantumG | so were mainframe hackers back in the day | 22:40 |
| kanzure | xp_prg is a moron | 22:41 |
| kanzure | and should be avoided at all costs | 22:41 |
| QuantumG | diy is orthogonal to hacker | 22:41 |
| genehackersolder | good point | 22:41 |
| QuantumG | diy-bio-hacker is a worthy goal though | 22:41 |
| QuantumG | kanzure: so is there anyone around here who actually hits the wet lab regularly? | 22:41 |
| genehackersolder | dammit why does the iGEM team have to suck here | 22:42 |
| genehackersolder | drazak | 22:42 |
| drazak | yo | 22:43 |
| drazak | yeah | 22:43 |
| drazak | not lately, busy with highschool stuff and college app stuff | 22:43 |
| QuantumG | opinions on biohacking? | 22:44 |
| drazak | as long as you have some idea what you're doing | 22:44 |
| drazak | I don't know how well received this would be, but licensing, maybe | 22:44 |
| drazak | that might be a good thing | 22:44 |
| drazak | as much as I support people wanting to do everything at home, I don't support retards doing biology at home | 22:45 |
| QuantumG | tell me, are there membrane penetrating proteins that you could use to selectively bind bacteria to bacteria? | 22:45 |
| drazak | why? do you want to cause horizontal transfer? | 22:46 |
| QuantumG | well, I'm curious whether it would make a gel | 22:46 |
| drazak | doubt it | 22:47 |
| drazak | if you want to make a gel transform them to make fibronectin or collagen, or both | 22:47 |
| QuantumG | could you explain to me why it wouldn't work? | 22:47 |
| genehackersolder | well if you get them to connect to each other it seems like it should... | 22:47 |
| QuantumG | what am I not understanding? | 22:47 |
| drazak | it would, I suppose, I just think it's awfully roundabout | 22:48 |
| genehackersolder | I guess having them secrete long polymer chains would be better | 22:48 |
| drazak | unless there's a specifc thing you want | 22:48 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: yes you can selectively bind things together | 22:48 |
| QuantumG | well, I'm imagining bacteria holding onto neighbouring bacteria under programmed control. | 22:49 |
| kanzure | antibodies are a popular way. streptavidin is also popular. aptamers less so. | 22:49 |
| drazak | yeah | 22:49 |
| drazak | you could do it that way, I just think it's roundabout for making a gel unless you have a good reason | 22:49 |
| kanzure | streptavidin/biotin | 22:49 |
| kanzure | drazak: why are you making a gel? | 22:49 |
| QuantumG | he was answering my question kanzure | 22:49 |
| genehackersolder | yeah but is the strength of interbacterial bonds strong enough to resist shearing forces on a bunch of them so that they form a gel | 22:50 |
| kanzure | i don't think it would make a gel anyway | 22:50 |
| kanzure | and this is silly | 22:50 |
| drazak | kanzure: he said he wanted to make a gel | 22:50 |
| kanzure | what are you actually trying to do, QuantumG? | 22:50 |
| QuantumG | that's what my question was | 22:50 |
| drazak | kanzure: whcih is what I asked | 22:51 |
| QuantumG | if it's silly, why is it silly | 22:51 |
| kanzure | because it's not a gel | 22:51 |
| genehackersolder | and if you bonded bunches of bacteria together they might die | 22:51 |
| drazak | kanzure: which is why I said it's roundabout, because it's silly | 22:51 |
| drazak | s/might/would/ | 22:51 |
| drazak | you'd get 8 hours max | 22:51 |
| kanzure | that's not why it's silly | 22:51 |
| kanzure | is a moss a gel? | 22:51 |
| drazak | nope | 22:52 |
| kanzure | what about fungi colonies | 22:52 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: are you still on your diy-food-synthesis idea? | 22:52 |
| QuantumG | say you made a bacteria with just 2 membrane penetrating proteins | 22:52 |
| QuantumG | nah | 22:52 |
| kanzure | wouldn't have to penetrate the membrane btw | 22:52 |
| kanzure | there are proteins that can be moved to the outside of the membrane | 22:52 |
| kanzure | sometimes these are called G-proteins (?) when they are on the inside | 22:53 |
| kanzure | "integral membrane proteins" are also worth mentioning | 22:53 |
| QuantumG | each of the proteins joins to another bacteria... so you get a congo line | 22:53 |
| drazak | I think G proteins are different | 22:53 |
| drazak | G proteins are in WNT signalling | 22:53 |
| kanzure | ok i'd trust drazak on the g protein issue | 22:53 |
| kanzure | g proteins are in everywhere IIRC | 22:53 |
| drazak | they're in signalling | 22:53 |
| kanzure | blah | 22:53 |
| kanzure | okie dokie | 22:53 |
| kanzure | so yeah, inside then :) | 22:53 |
| drazak | they're one of the cross connects between all the different types of signalling | 22:53 |
| QuantumG | would you get a congo line? or am I misunderstanding what is possible? | 22:54 |
| drazak | QuantumG: if you want cells to orient a certain way you can use fibronectin | 22:54 |
| kanzure | ohh | 22:55 |
| kanzure | do you mean gel as in, "crosslinked things" only? | 22:55 |
| drazak | QuantumG: we see that most cell types with integrins align along the contours of the protein from how it set | 22:55 |
| QuantumG | ok | 22:57 |
| drazak | kanzure: yeah, found the paper on my desk here, g proteins can activate surface proteins from the inside as one of the end results of wnt signalling | 22:57 |
| QuantumG | selective adhesion is probably what I'm talking about | 22:57 |
| drazak | yea | 22:57 |
| drazak | h | 22:57 |
| drazak | go figure | 22:59 |
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| QuantumG | so, and I apologize for asking a silly question, can you engineer a bacterial colony that forms into a film? | 22:59 |
| drazak | well sure | 23:00 |
| drazak | don't even really need to engineer it | 23:00 |
| QuantumG | and would you do it like how I'm suggesting or is that dumb? | 23:00 |
| drazak | kinda dumb | 23:00 |
| drazak | different bacteria can do it | 23:00 |
| drazak | hell if you don't let it grow to colonies, and use a spreader, you'll get a film of bacteria | 23:01 |
| drazak | once it hits colonies you have the film with mountains | 23:01 |
| drazak | that's just an agar plate | 23:01 |
| QuantumG | ok.. but arn't they just bacteria in close proximity? | 23:01 |
| QuantumG | I'm talking about a film you can pick up with a pair of tweezers | 23:02 |
| drazak | oh, well | 23:02 |
| drazak | you could put some fibronectin and gelatin or collagen and gelatin down on some plastic, spread the bacteria, incubate, and you'll have a film of bacteria and matrix | 23:03 |
| randallagordon | I love this channel...where else would I jump back over to catch up after being away for hours and be confronted with "fibronectin" as the first word I see? | 23:04 |
| drazak | heh | 23:04 |
| QuantumG | ok.. say for an iGEM project (which you probably know are almost entirely of this variety) I said "make me a colony of bacteria that glows blue, floats on water, and will change from a star shape to a circle every 30 seconds" | 23:06 |
| drazak | uhm | 23:07 |
| drazak | good question? | 23:07 |
| kanzure | 30sec is a pretty fast timing operation | 23:07 |
| drazak | yeah | 23:07 |
| drazak | it's fucking fantastical | 23:07 |
| QuantumG | feel free to change any of the variables :) | 23:07 |
| drazak | blue isn't hard | 23:08 |
| drazak | I mean, it's not awfully hard | 23:08 |
| * randallagordon wants a bacterial desk lamp | 23:08 | |
| kanzure | no you don't | 23:08 |
| drazak | floats on water, still not all that hard | 23:08 |
| drazak | changes shape ever time? WTF? | 23:09 |
| genehackersolder | heh just like kombucha | 23:09 |
| randallagordon | I don't? I think I just said I did. ;) | 23:09 |
| genehackersolder | maybe a light pattern | 23:09 |
| genehackersolder | if you could make it like a cellular automata | 23:09 |
| genehackersolder | but it seems a bit far fetched | 23:09 |
| * genehackersolder solders an expensive electronic component | 23:10 | |
| QuantumG | presumably you'd need sophisticated cell signal dispersal | 23:10 |
| kanzure | danielfalck: can you repeat the steps you used to convert .stl to .step for us in here? | 23:10 |
| drazak | QuantumG: Nah | 23:10 |
| drazak | QuantumG: you could do it like a beating heart, which is just Ca2+ signalling | 23:10 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: it wouldn't give off light | 23:10 |
| danielfalck | STL to SharkFX (commercial demo ACIS modeller)-> convert to faces -> export | 23:11 |
| kanzure | thanks danielfalck | 23:11 |
| QuantumG | to tell the cells in the circle pattern that won't be in the star pattern to move towards the ones that will be in the star pattern | 23:11 |
| * randallagordon didn't say he wanted it to light the room...there are much better materials for that... | 23:11 | |
| drazak | but I don't think you can do it floating on the top of water | 23:11 |
| randallagordon | Just something to luminesce and look amazingly awesome | 23:12 |
| QuantumG | dont most baterial colonies float? | 23:12 |
| randallagordon | ...conversation starter, shall we say. | 23:12 |
| QuantumG | bacterial even :) | 23:12 |
| drazak | nah, they grow in suspension usually, so it'd be fairly dispersed | 23:12 |
| QuantumG | well, I see the biobricks parts registry has nothing in it about cell adhesion | 23:14 |
| genehackersolder | well to get a beating heart you'd have to get them to synchronise | 23:14 |
| drazak | genehackersolder: that's Ca2+ syncronization | 23:15 |
| drazak | but that won't work on water | 23:15 |
| drazak | needs some sort of ecm support | 23:15 |
| drazak | so that's nized | 23:15 |
| drazak | er, nixed | 23:15 |
| QuantumG | how about algar instead? | 23:16 |
| genehackersolder | does it work like firefly synchronization except with chemicals instead of light? | 23:16 |
| kanzure | algar? you mean agar? | 23:16 |
| drazak | and no | 23:17 |
| QuantumG | ya | 23:17 |
| drazak | not on agar | 23:17 |
| drazak | but it's a bad idea anyway | 23:17 |
| drazak | I was thinking out loud | 23:17 |
| QuantumG | truth is, if you completed that project I'd be asking you if you could do 3d shapes next :) | 23:19 |
| drazak | heh | 23:22 |
| drazak | that's a tough ass project | 23:22 |
| QuantumG | well, the parts don't exist | 23:23 |
| QuantumG | so it's most likely dozens of projects (being that just adding a part is a project) | 23:24 |
| drazak | does the shape change have to be macro? | 23:25 |
| QuantumG | well, if you can make a "bacteria muscle" that'd be interesting | 23:26 |
| drazak | doubt it | 23:26 |
| drazak | don't think you can | 23:26 |
| drazak | not enough organization or specificity | 23:27 |
| genehackersolder | well if you could make bacterial 'photopolymer' that'd be ineteresting | 23:27 |
| QuantumG | what's that do? | 23:28 |
| genehackersolder | it's what stereolithography machines use | 23:29 |
| genehackersolder | it's very expensive | 23:29 |
| QuantumG | Jump to: navigation, search | 23:30 |
| QuantumG | A photopolymer is a polymer that cures, or becomes solid, when exposed to light, often in the ultraviolet spectrum. | 23:30 |
| kanzure | there are also photopolymers that cure in blue | 23:32 |
| -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-50-79.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:34 | |
| kanzure | "We are sad to report that Nobel Prize winner Edwin Krebs, for whom the | 23:35 |
| kanzure | Krebs Cycle is named [*], passed away at the age of 91 of heart failure in Seattle, WA [" | 23:35 |
| QuantumG | bacteria that can climb a light gradient.. presumably that's been done | 23:38 |
| genehackersolder | nature didit | 23:40 |
| QuantumG | anyone bothered to reproduce her work? | 23:41 |
| QuantumG | how fast can they swim? | 23:41 |
| -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:42 | |
| QuantumG | 60 cell lengths/second | 23:43 |
| QuantumG | I wonder if a (mostly) focused laser point could move that fast.. | 23:44 |
| -!- MrClif [n=clif@c-67-189-77-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:44 | |
| QuantumG | could you watch under a light microscope and lead bacteria around with it? | 23:45 |
| genehackersolder | no idea | 23:45 |
| genehackersolder | yeah | 23:45 |
| genehackersolder | probably | 23:45 |
| QuantumG | kinda sounds like something that I've seen before.... no idea where | 23:46 |
| genehackersolder | there are phototactic bacteria | 23:46 |
| genehackersolder | google bacterial phototaxis | 23:46 |
| genehackersolder | any desoldering experts here? | 23:46 |
| MrClif | I've done some desodering. | 23:47 |
| genehackersolder | I need to desolder an expensive heat sensitive tiny part from an assembly | 23:47 |
| MrClif | "desoder" and heat sensitive don't nessasarly go together. ;-) | 23:48 |
| MrClif | Is it surface mount? | 23:48 |
| genehackersolder | no | 23:48 |
| genehackersolder | through hole | 23:48 |
| MrClif | well for high pin count parts you can use a hot air gun. | 23:49 |
| QuantumG | ahh, it was a nematode C. elegans I saw doing phototaxis | 23:49 |
| MrClif | the slower way is an iron and either a soder sucker or some copper braid. | 23:50 |
| MrClif | generally the better tools put less stress on your parts. | 23:51 |
| genehackersolder | I tried a solder sucker | 23:51 |
| MrClif | How many pins does it have? | 23:51 |
| genehackersolder | 3 | 23:51 |
| MrClif | Should be pretty easy. | 23:52 |
| genehackersolder | it's through 2 pcbs | 23:52 |
| genehackersolder | that are really thin | 23:52 |
| MrClif | you use the iron on the front side and the SS on the back and wiggle it till it comes free. | 23:52 |
| genehackersolder | and about size of the component | 23:52 |
| genehackersolder | I can't wiggle it | 23:53 |
| MrClif | another thing to try is wiggle it till while its cooling and then get one pin free. do that for each pin and you might be able to pull it off. | 23:54 |
| drazak | genehackersolder: what is the component? | 23:54 |
| genehackersolder | a 405 nm 150 mw laser diode | 23:54 |
| MrClif | You could also try copper braid. | 23:57 |
| drazak | what kinda tip you got on the iron? | 23:58 |
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