| --- Day changed Tue Mar 16 2010 | ||
| kanzure | "and after every day he would write things down about their conversation on the back of the business card as well as write details about the person, such as what color their hair was and whether or not they had glasses" | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | "By the time he was governor of Arkansas he had over 12,000 cards like this. Before meeting with people he would always research this library and see if he had any personal details about this person." | 00:02 |
| kanzure | glasses? | 00:02 |
| kanzure | maybe it's a part of the master plan | 00:02 |
| katsmeow | i wonder what the average search time was to look up "a someone with black hair about 5-10" ,, because putting them on hold 2hrs while looking thru the rolodex was prolly impolite | 00:04 |
| kanzure | shhh! i'm searching >:o | 00:05 |
| kanzure | there's a bill clinton joke in there somewhere about looking up tramps or something | 00:08 |
| kanzure | heh, i like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/05/AR2009080504021.html | 00:12 |
| kanzure | http://biopunk.hu/2010/03/15/on-mendeley-2/ | 00:30 |
| katsmeow | ya know, i thought *i* ranged far and wide online till i came in here | 00:34 |
| katsmeow | if ifollowed allyourlinks, i couldn't irc at all! | 00:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: why are you playing with xp_prg | 00:52 |
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| fenn | kanzure: he's slightly less annoying in person | 01:22 |
| fenn | and besides, it's a cool project | 01:22 |
| katsmeow | xp_prg has a project? | 01:23 |
| fenn | "What? It doesn't send an email telling you it has caught a mouse?" | 01:24 |
| fenn | what is "oshbm" and should i care? | 01:29 |
| fenn | katsmeow: he's building a "spikerbox" which is basically an amplifier with a speaker, as seen on backyardbrains.com | 01:39 |
| fenn | katsmeow: you can see more here if you care: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvFJev6yOM | 01:39 |
| katsmeow | i have no audio,, is xp the one in the pink top? | 01:41 |
| katsmeow | i see no speaker or amplifier | 01:42 |
| katsmeow | oh, there it is,, and 2 inch speaker ini a 3x3x6 inch aluminum box | 01:42 |
| fenn | no, he's not in that video at all | 01:43 |
| katsmeow | why is that guy cuttingth elegs off a frozen roach? | 01:43 |
| fenn | SCIENCE! | 01:44 |
| katsmeow | to do what? | 01:44 |
| fenn | to see what happens when you stick amplifier leads into it and poke it with a stick | 01:44 |
| katsmeow | it makes static sounds | 01:45 |
| katsmeow | rapidfire pops | 01:45 |
| fenn | you can record the signal on a computer and do more analysis | 01:45 |
| katsmeow | if you say so | 01:46 |
| fenn | well, i did | 01:46 |
| katsmeow | "things we leaned about neural firing in frozen roach legs" ? | 01:46 |
| fenn | this is the point where if i were katsmeow i would bitch about how nobody understands me and i'm just doing it all wrong and should just go drown myself in the ocean | 01:47 |
| fenn | but i'm not, so if you really want to understand what it's all about, please continue | 01:47 |
| katsmeow | me continue? my question remains unanswered | 01:48 |
| fenn | what was the question? | 01:48 |
| katsmeow | more indepth to [01:44] <katsmeow> why is that guy cuttingth elegs off a frozen roach? | 01:48 |
| fenn | to record pulses from its disembodied nervous system and show people that it's possible with $20 of components | 01:49 |
| fenn | also there is some speculation about cyborg roach exo-exoskeletons if you watch the other video | 01:50 |
| fenn | but the real purpose is he's starting a business selling science kits | 01:50 |
| katsmeow | but kids in science classes in the 1970's did that to frogs, docs call it "nerve conduction tests", and i can tell you it's bloody painfull | 01:50 |
| fenn | apparently times have changed, we never ever did anything even remotely as cool as this when i was in school | 01:51 |
| katsmeow | oh | 01:51 |
| katsmeow | i refused to do the frog bit, i took an F instead | 01:51 |
| fenn | tim says he never heard nerve impulses until halfway through grad school | 01:51 |
| fenn | (in neuroscience) | 01:51 |
| fenn | (other tim, not xp_prg) | 01:51 |
| fenn | katsmeow: does the nerve conduction test make the leg twitch? | 01:52 |
| katsmeow | yeas | 01:53 |
| fenn | ok i think that is the opposite of what this does | 01:53 |
| katsmeow | they send an impulse in, kill it, and listen for the echo | 01:53 |
| fenn | why would there be an echo? | 01:54 |
| katsmeow | the point is often to diagnose the route to the spine and back | 01:54 |
| fenn | ug, they're doing this to a live frog? | 01:54 |
| katsmeow | no, they did it to me and other humans | 01:54 |
| fenn | holy crap | 01:54 |
| fenn | i forgot you had nerve problems | 01:55 |
| katsmeow | you don't understand me, i'm going to bitcha nd go sail waya | 01:55 |
| katsmeow | :-P | 01:55 |
| fenn | just hold still while we chop those useless legs off and attach a gleaming translucent purple exoskeleton | 01:56 |
| katsmeow | they are now more painful than useless, but in a sense if it hurts too much to use, then they are useless | 01:57 |
| fenn | <3 ebook torrents | 01:59 |
| fenn | "generation Y" - i didn't even know we had a name | 02:01 |
| fenn | generation "why me" is more like it | 02:01 |
| katsmeow | i should goto bed | 02:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: i'd like you to provide a service for me | 02:08 |
| fenn | kanzure: make a big linkdump of messages on OM and diybio that are actually worth reading, and then i can delete the other 10k | 02:08 |
| fenn | and then i wouldnt feel bad about having 10k unread messages in my inbox | 02:09 |
| fenn | like rec.humor.funny | 02:10 |
| fenn | hm of course then i run into the problem that 50% of the spam is from this "bryan bishop" guy | 02:11 |
| fenn | d'eaux | 02:11 |
| fenn | > Perhaps a simple monthly email thread calling for an exposition on | 02:13 |
| fenn | > everyone's latest hacks would be sufficient, | 02:13 |
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| Utopiah | http://www.inter-chem.biz/details/63 | 03:32 |
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| Utopiah | http://hackaday.com/2010/03/15/3d-printing-on-a-much-larger-scale/ | 04:07 |
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| Utopiah | http://www.d-shape.com/ | 04:11 |
| Utopiah | totally sounds like http://rockprinter.com/ | 04:17 |
| Utopiah | kanzure: http://fora.tv/2010/02/18/Robin_Dunbar_How_Many_Friends_Does_One_Person_Need | 04:37 |
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| Utopiah | http://craft.usc.edu/ | 05:10 |
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| kanzure | Utopiah: i counter your dunbar number with http://groups.google.com/group/diytranshumanist/browse_frm/thread/da6ee0594580dc1f# | 08:41 |
| Utopiah | I remembered that, that's why I posted the short talk | 08:43 |
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| kanzure | http://www.betterhumans.com/blogs/alexandra_carmichael/archive/2008/09/15/Open-Source-Health-Research-Plan-.aspx | 12:22 |
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| kanzure | i don't remember "honey, i shrunk the audience" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113325/ | 13:20 |
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| kanzure | hello romulox | 13:21 |
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| kanzure | 13:20 < hundred-ideas> anyway, a bunch of transhumanist peeps are also over in #hplusroadmap | 13:36 |
| kanzure | 13:21 < hundred-ideas> beware, <ideology> is a big un-closed tag over there | 13:36 |
| kanzure | um | 13:36 |
| kanzure | [citation needed] | 13:36 |
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| hundred-ideas | you don't consider yourself or the general tone of this channel ideological? | 13:37 |
| kanzure | it's easy to find fault when you go looking for it, mac | 13:38 |
| fenn | i think it's good that channels have topics | 13:39 |
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| fenn | blog is a four letter word | 13:43 |
| fenn | i dont understand why this says nothing about eye tracking http://www.baychi.org/calendar/20100316/ presumably that's the topic of the event | 13:46 |
| hundred-ideas | Isn't adobe the 2nd largest software company in the USA? | 14:00 |
| hundred-ideas | "New Business Research Funnel"... bleh | 14:00 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_software_companies | 14:12 |
| fenn | microsoft word is its own company? | 14:12 |
| fenn | god microsoft is pathetic. i just spent ten minutes searching for the "change password" button in "windows live msn passport hotmail" (nowhere in the help wizard) only to have it puke and lock me out of my account once i actually found it | 14:15 |
| fenn | and then give me a "windows live is experiencing technical difficulties" when i tried "forgot my password" | 14:15 |
| fenn | hmm this wasn't quite what i intended | 14:27 |
| fenn | "This Week's Menlo Park Calendar: 1,097 Meetups Nearby (178kB)" | 14:27 |
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| kanzure | http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/BCFCFLY | 14:37 |
| kanzure | alternative to tito's data lock-in | 14:37 |
| fenn | can't you just ask him to release the data? | 14:38 |
| fenn | i havent been reading diybio | 14:38 |
| kanzure | he said no | 14:40 |
| kanzure | he also said that it has "personally identifying information" on it | 14:40 |
| kanzure | (on the other one) and that this is why he wouldn't release the data | 14:41 |
| hundred-ideas | I thought that was pretty flaky | 14:46 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't trust tito | 14:47 |
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| kanzure | hey rektide | 14:48 |
| rektide | hello kanzure, been a long time | 14:48 |
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| kanzure | KingJacob: did you show mac the designs yet? | 14:48 |
| KingJacob | I think he's seen my poor sketches | 14:50 |
| kanzure | KingJacob: would you mind if i publish a test on http://fivesecondtest.com/ for the design? | 14:50 |
| kanzure | opensciencefund.org memory test: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/HqIhlOwD | 14:51 |
| kanzure | something like that | 14:51 |
| kanzure | opensciencefund.org click test: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/KnY43u3k | 14:52 |
| kanzure | you can send around these links and get more feedback on the design | 14:52 |
| kanzure | the click test will give you a heat map of where people click | 14:52 |
| KingJacob | I'm actually waiting on another designers treatment | 14:53 |
| kanzure | treatment? | 14:53 |
| KingJacob | so we'll have to decide between the two | 14:53 |
| KingJacob | A treatment is a quick draft, to show what you can do, | 14:54 |
| kanzure | i fell in love with fivesecondtest.com as a way to gather rapid feedback on designs | 14:54 |
| KingJacob | yeah, doing analytics like that'll be important | 14:55 |
| hundred-ideas | So what's your vision once the site is done? Where does inventory come from and where do profits go? | 15:00 |
| kanzure | http://threader.ecs.soton.ac.uk/lists/boaiforum/2005.html NPG details 2011 open access pricing policy | 15:03 |
| KingJacob | First the easy question, | 15:07 |
| KingJacob | profits would be used to fund research, educate and improve projects | 15:08 |
| KingJacob | Inventory would come from the source that is most affordable and efficient | 15:10 |
| hundred-ideas | cool | 15:10 |
| kanzure | ugh "I was confused for a moment, I thought this was regarding the Hacker Space in Austin... hence hackerspace in the subject line. So there are many hackerspace groups all around the country?" | 15:11 |
| KingJacob | lol, who sent you that? | 15:13 |
| kanzure | someone from the austin robot group named "john" | 15:14 |
| KingJacob | Hopefully he was pleasantly surprised to find out there are 100s of hackerspaces | 15:15 |
| kanzure | i linked him over to http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces | 15:16 |
| kanzure | KingJacob: joseph says that he will add something to the diybio FAQ by the end of the week about his progress on helping organize an open science conference | 15:19 |
| KingJacob | thanks. | 15:25 |
| hundred-ideas | has anybody met greg or tim from http://www.backyardbrains.com/? | 15:28 |
| fenn | yeah | 15:28 |
| fenn | greg is pretty quiet | 15:29 |
| fenn | anything in particular? | 15:30 |
| hundred-ideas | SpikerBox, LavaAmp, Dremelfuge, Pearl Gel Box are all on my list of more-or-less real biotech kits, but I don't know any of the SpikerBox guys | 15:32 |
| hundred-ideas | Am I forgetting any? | 15:32 |
| kanzure | scitoys probably has something (simon quellen field) | 15:35 |
| hundred-ideas | hmmm | 15:35 |
| kanzure | hm those aren't really open source | 15:35 |
| kanzure | the ones you listed, i mean | 15:35 |
| * kanzure hasn't checked out spikerbox though | 15:35 | |
| hundred-ideas | That's true. | 15:35 |
| fenn | how about simon field's spectroscope? | 15:36 |
| hundred-ideas | [recalling last conversation about challenges of defining open source hardware] | 15:36 |
| kanzure | um, it is *not* challenging to figure out that lava amp is not open source | 15:36 |
| hundred-ideas | that's *definitely* not open source. Simon has said he will not release the source code | 15:36 |
| hundred-ideas | well anyway, let's pursue a parallel enumeration of biotech kits | 15:37 |
| kanzure | then why not just list the catalog from carolina, merk, sigma-aldrich, etc. | 15:37 |
| hundred-ideas | there is also the NEB biobrick assembly kit, which is essentially 6 enzymes | 15:37 |
| fenn | if the use of an enzyme is patented, is it still "open source"? | 15:37 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: have you read the TAPR license, or the creative commons license, or anything like that? | 15:39 |
| hundred-ideas | I have read the cc license | 15:39 |
| kanzure | ok | 15:39 |
| kanzure | um why am i listing so few licenses? fenn, halp? | 15:39 |
| hundred-ideas | yeah, don't forget the WTFPL | 15:40 |
| Utopiah | :) | 15:40 |
| kanzure | isn't that just the BSD? | 15:40 |
| fenn | kanzure: all of the hardware licenses suck | 15:40 |
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| kanzure | yes but instead of saying "oh well, let's just claim that pearlbiotech is open source", how about we figure out why they suck | 15:40 |
| fenn | there was that GOSH thing with trademarks yesterday | 15:40 |
| kanzure | honestly i thought there was more than three | 15:41 |
| hundred-ideas | Did Stallman write anything before emacs? like, gcc? | 15:41 |
| fenn | pff it's simple; does it meet the four freedoms? does it provide design files in the preferred format for modification if they exist? | 15:42 |
| kanzure | ohanda, TAPR, cc (which isn't really for hardware but people use it for hardware anyway), gfdl (documentation), and then the software brothers like GPL and BSD | 15:42 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think that OSI compatibility is definitely a requirement | 15:42 |
| fenn | hundred-ideas: he wrote a lot of software at MIT | 15:42 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: what about the OSI, have you read the "open source definition" doc? | 15:42 |
| fenn | * Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose. | 15:43 |
| fenn | * Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish. | 15:43 |
| fenn | * Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. | 15:43 |
| fenn | * Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits. | 15:43 |
| fenn | no need to read lengthy pontifications from pedantic pundits | 15:43 |
| hundred-ideas | well, I wonder if this discussion is soft of cart-before-horse. If you go back and look at the history of the GNU project, did stallman start with a license or free software | 15:44 |
| kanzure | opencores.org uses the LGPL O_o (which is good but odd) | 15:44 |
| hundred-ideas | My point is this: what exactly is the need for the license RIGHT NOW. | 15:44 |
| fenn | hundred-ideas: he started just writing code, and then the world decided to restrict access to software | 15:44 |
| fenn | it was common courtesy to give source code to any and all who asked | 15:44 |
| hundred-ideas | why don't we just focus on making a bunch of great hardware and wetware, spending no more than 12 hours in the first year considering how we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with licenses (i.e. enabling others to patent / appropriate the work) | 15:45 |
| fenn | just release your filed under ANY license, i dont care which | 15:45 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: the problem is that people don't have that "courtesy" any more | 15:46 |
| kanzure | they don't release the files at all | 15:46 |
| kanzure | and then they have the balls to call it "open source" | 15:46 |
| fenn | i gotta catch a train, ciao | 15:46 |
| hundred-ideas | Ok. done. there. we'll do what fenn just said. let's just promote that and stop making noise and wasting attention w/r/t/ untested hardware legal agreements | 15:46 |
| kanzure | how about this instead, | 15:47 |
| kanzure | a community check list for determining whether or not the open source definitions are met | 15:47 |
| kanzure | "is this person's claim legit? or are they bullshitting us" sort of thing | 15:47 |
| hundred-ideas | I mean, someone comes over here and says "I want to provide my gadget as 'open source'" and then they end up totally confused and depressed. Sure. A preflight checklist would be perfect. And a little badge for websites / hardware. | 15:48 |
| kanzure | lots of people waste lots of time following rabbits down the rabbit holes | 15:48 |
| parolang | You can email the fsf or gnu people and ask them about free licensing for hardware. They have a lot of experience with this sort of thing and, even more importantly, lawyers who know what they are talking about :) | 15:49 |
| kanzure | parolang: have you done that? | 15:50 |
| parolang | no | 15:50 |
| hundred-ideas | I nominate kanzure to do that. unless parolang has. | 15:50 |
| kanzure | because each time i do that- and each time other people i know do that- they get back emails saying "this is not our focus" | 15:50 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: please search the archives for the deets | 15:50 |
| kanzure | yesterday i saw the GOSH! people got a negatory response too | 15:50 |
| parolang | kanzure: Didn't realize it was such a dead end. | 15:50 |
| jrayhawk | I don't know that the FSF has ever made a both legal and sensible license. | 15:50 |
| kanzure | :( | 15:50 |
| kanzure | coming from jrayhawk, that burns | 15:51 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: http://piksel.no/pipermail/gosh/2010-March/000326.html | 15:51 |
| kanzure | that response was for the trademark-in-particular idea though | 15:51 |
| jrayhawk | GPLv2 has a lot of ambiguity, GPLv3 is more contract than license, and GFDL is just a disaster. | 15:51 |
| kanzure | let me see if i can dig up anything else | 15:51 |
| parolang | I'll ask on #sflc see if anyone answers. | 15:52 |
| kanzure | oh yay | 15:52 |
| kanzure | fenn started a thread in 2008 about this | 15:52 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/814b2a47a602cac0/e7235e013e117917?lnk=gst&q=free+software+foundation+license#e7235e013e117917 | 15:52 |
| kanzure | oops, nevermind | 15:52 |
| hundred-ideas | can we just use the ohanda logo, the 4 OSI principles, and circle back in a year and see what would be more appropriate? | 15:52 |
| kanzure | in what sense? like the "community checklist process"? | 15:53 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: what are your opinions on that idea? having projects brought up and vetted if they seem to be swaying from OSI-like principles? "oh lookie, these people are lying fucks" | 15:53 |
| jrayhawk | The DSFG is less poorly thought out, but it depends on your goals. | 15:54 |
| kanzure | the problem with the community vetting process is that it could still come back to bite you in the ass | 15:54 |
| jrayhawk | The OSI, by the way, basically exists to rubber-stamp bad Sun decisions. | 15:55 |
| kanzure | like if you use a hardware design, and then later you start selling kits | 15:55 |
| kanzure | and then the original guy who made the first design who was "vetted" decides to start suing everyone for all they're worth | 15:55 |
| hundred-ideas | kanzure: that's theoretical. I think we are getting tripped up in theory. let's act. | 15:55 |
| kanzure | that's not theoretical, sadly | 15:55 |
| hundred-ideas | please point to someone you know trying to sell biotech kits who was sued | 15:56 |
| kanzure | does it have to be biotech? | 15:56 |
| hundred-ideas | (tito doesn't count). | 15:56 |
| jrayhawk | Well, what you should be vetting is the license things are released under, but you guys have even more of a patent problem than the software world does. | 15:56 |
| parolang | Would you mind if I invited someone from #sflc here? (software freedom law center, softwarefreedom.org) | 15:56 |
| kanzure | parolang: i would encourage it :) | 15:56 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: why do you think kits are different from software? | 15:57 |
| kanzure | there are many, many examples of people getting sued around GPL'd code | 15:57 |
| hundred-ideas | I have to to a meeting shortly, but let me reiterate | 15:57 |
| kanzure | most recently, bruce perens had to step up to the plate to help a poor guy out | 15:57 |
| jrayhawk | Where was this? | 15:57 |
| jrayhawk | I wasn't aware Bruce Perens had done anything beside troll peole for the past ten years. | 15:58 |
| kanzure | well it wasn't bruce perens who did the lawyering, but | 15:58 |
| jrayhawk | people | 15:58 |
| kanzure | grr where did this link go | 15:58 |
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| kanzure | http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf | 15:58 |
| kanzure | jacobsen v. katzer/kamind | 15:58 |
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| kanzure | http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/node/5837 | 15:59 |
| parolang | aaronw is the guy fro #sflc...he says he can't provide legal advice, but can probably point you in the right direction :) | 15:59 |
| parolang | Welcome aaronw and thanks for joining :) | 15:59 |
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| kanzure | hundred-ideas: i'm not convinced that foresight is unwarranted | 16:00 |
| aaronw | No problem, parolang. So what the hell are you up to here at #hplusroadmap? | 16:00 |
| jrayhawk | it was kinda neat to see the artistic license hold up; it was one of the weakest licenses the OSI ever approved | 16:00 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: more discussion here: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/d24620087310febe/038310777a4516a7?lnk=gst&q=TAPR#038310777a4516a7 | 16:02 |
| parolang | aaronw: I think they want to apply free software principles to hardware. They want to ensure the share and share-alike principle to hardware designs which can be distributed over the internet. | 16:02 |
| hundred-ideas | I think we are wasting a disproportionate amount of time trying to figure out a license or agreement or pool or other legal vehicle for building a hardware commons. I recommend we consider the situation briefly today, work hard for a year, and reassess to see what worked and what didn't, who got sued or taken advantage of, etc. I don't disagree that there may be prior case law suggesting abuse in the absence of legal protection, but I don't | 16:02 |
| hundred-ideas | having a concrete answer today is required before engaging in "open" hardware innovation & distribution. | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk | A ounce of legal prevention is worth three years of your life being wasted in a courtroom. | 16:03 |
| jrayhawk | It's really best to get it sorted out beforehand :) | 16:03 |
| kanzure | it's okay, it's probably my ass that is going to be on the line, not hundred-ideas' | 16:03 |
| hundred-ideas | ouch | 16:04 |
| jrayhawk | Okay, threeyears of Bryan's life. | 16:04 |
| jrayhawk | Which means go crazy, guys! | 16:04 |
| kanzure | yippee! | 16:04 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 16:04 |
| kanzure | do i get conjugal visits? | 16:04 |
| parolang | aaronw: One of the projects that members of this channel have been working on is skdb which has been described briefly as "apt-get for hardware" using automated machining tools or projects such as 3d printers (e.g., reprap) to fabricate real objects.. | 16:04 |
| kanzure | aaronw: brief article overview: http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web | 16:05 |
| hundred-ideas | gah. build shit, be successful, gain *real* experience, feedback onto legal practices, iterate. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | but if you want a super-long introduction plus videos: http://gnusha.org/ | 16:05 |
| kanzure | i don't think you're listening | 16:05 |
| hundred-ideas | If I have a kit tomorrow, or Romie does, or Jacob does, or Tito does, or Cathal does... what are we supposed to do? You guys can't give us an effing answer. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | what?? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | if you have it tomorrow, where did all your open source development come from? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | i think i just failed to understand your question | 16:06 |
| aaronw | parolang, I see. Well, the short answer is that there's no ready-made answer for hardware. You can license design files under FOSS copyright licenses, but an "open source hardware license" doesn't make as much sense for a few reasons. | 16:08 |
| jrayhawk | Anyway, let me know if you happen to run across this "Bruce Perens actually did something useful" incident you claim occured. I have a lot of interest in tracking free software trolls. | 16:08 |
| aaronw | The first being that hardware isn't automatically subject to an exclusive right, e.g. copyright. | 16:08 |
| hundred-ideas | Ok, so here's a hypothetical for you: I am building a multiaxis microscope slide platform actuated by servos (the most closed component) and an arduino, designed to be cut on a lasercutter out of acrylic. The ardunio / processing source code is available via github under an appropriate OS license (you recommend which?) and I can provide the SVG files for the acrylic in any format you want. What precisely would you like me to do, with the on | 16:09 |
| hundred-ideas | constraint that it be doable within a timeframe deemed reasonable by my peers? | 16:09 |
| kanzure | publish and license a bill of materials, for one | 16:10 |
| kanzure | to go along with the project i mean | 16:10 |
| parolang | aaronw: But the design files are? Because that's how the hardware will be duplicated. | 16:10 |
| parolang | As far as hardware creating hardware...is there any reason why an exclusive right here would be desirable? | 16:11 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: are there gpl'd projects that have mixed licensed content? like cc licensed art | 16:11 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: from a legal standpoint, along with those files, a description of licenses for distribution and so on; | 16:12 |
| aaronw | parolang, at least some design files are probably subject to copyright, yes. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: from an skdb stand point, the BOM would be mandatory | 16:13 |
| aaronw | subject to all of copyright's usual exceptions and disclaimers. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: so, i think that solves the data questions? but still open are other issues like, what happens if i start building and selling kits of those multi-axis microscope slide platforms (which is something that i think we should allow for) | 16:14 |
| kanzure | ooh | 16:15 |
| aaronw | kanzure, have you talked to the makerbot guys about that? | 16:15 |
| aaronw | they've dealt with that issue, i believe. | 16:15 |
| kanzure | no, they don't reply to my emails | 16:15 |
| kanzure | their content is CC-licensed IIRC | 16:15 |
| kanzure | but i haven't heard of a case of someone selling makerbot industry gear? | 16:15 |
| kanzure | *someone else | 16:16 |
| kanzure | how do co-ops that physically produce stuff work? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | does any member get to say "this is being produced on behalf of the co-op" | 16:16 |
| kanzure | because then you could just let anyone become a member of the co-op for $0 | 16:17 |
| aaronw | kanzure, Makerbot has dealt with at least one user that was building makerbot designs and selling them to end users | 16:18 |
| hundred-ideas | I have to go to my meeting, but I am not satisfied I know what to do. You just gave me vague instructions. I was asking for specific instructions, like "publish the svg files of the laser cut parts with a CC-BY license... " etc | 16:18 |
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| kanzure | hundred-ideas: ok. i agree that specific answers are needed | 16:18 |
| aaronw | because the copyright licenses presumably don't apply to the built hardware, they couldn't stop the guy from doing it with their copyrights | 16:18 |
| kanzure | aaronw: did they not like it? | 16:19 |
| kanzure | i mean, i though tthis was the whole point- others can pick it up and build it | 16:19 |
| kanzure | and potentially sell it | 16:19 |
| aaronw | well, the issue was that users who bought from him were calling them for support | 16:19 |
| kanzure | hahah | 16:19 |
| aaronw | they didn't want to prevent the practice | 16:19 |
| aaronw | but there was confusion | 16:19 |
| parolang | heh | 16:19 |
| aaronw | where is where <drumroll> trademarks come in | 16:19 |
| kanzure | that's a funny unforseen incident | 16:19 |
| aaronw | i think they just asked the guy not to use the name makerbot | 16:19 |
| kanzure | yeah, i would think that the makerbot brand would be protected or something | 16:19 |
| kanzure | right | 16:19 |
| parolang | Trademarks would need to be respected in skdb :/ | 16:20 |
| kanzure | that's fine, imho | 16:21 |
| kanzure | but i hope we can say "this is the same design as the Makerbot(tm) reprap" (or, really, the reprap on which it is based) | 16:21 |
| kanzure | cupcakecnc | 16:21 |
| aaronw | kanzure, truthful statements like that are generally fine | 16:21 |
| aaronw | i.e. don't infringe trademark | 16:22 |
| aaronw | Whereas "This is a Makerbot" could confuse someone into thinking they built it | 16:22 |
| parolang | aaronw: Is there a clear distinction as to how much can be trademarked? For instance, a brand name written on the product can be trademarked...but to what extent can you trademark a design? | 16:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | "now joining #################hplusroadmap , based on #hplusroadmap" | 16:23 |
| aaronw | The line is unfortunately not very clear, parolang | 16:24 |
| aaronw | But if a design element is functional, it's less likely to be subject to trademark. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | so, i think that there are two views that hundred-ideas wanted us to put forward | 16:25 |
| parolang | aaronw: What about if the design element is aesthetic? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | (1) how a project maintainer can license his design content for distribution, trademark his brand and not be totally screwed over | 16:25 |
| kanzure | (2) how content consumers, skdb users, and other people who did *not* originate the designs can use the OSI four freedoms, sell and redistribute the kits | 16:25 |
| kanzure | i think that #1 is fairly well settled, but #2 imho needs some convincing | 16:25 |
| aaronw | parolang, then in some cases it might be possible to claim trademark | 16:26 |
| kanzure | aaronw: is there anything stopping reprap.org from, say, patenting the cupcakecnc designs, and then suing makerbot? | 16:26 |
| kanzure | it seems that it could be possible, but of course i get the feeling that they wouldn't ;) | 16:26 |
| aaronw | kanzure, $10k to $20k, for one thing | 16:27 |
| aaronw | and possibly various estoppel issues | 16:27 |
| kanzure | estoppel? | 16:27 |
| aaronw | If you know someone believes you've given him permission to do something, and you let him go on doing it, you might be prevented from stopping it. | 16:28 |
| aaronw | But I'm not a patent lawyer, so I can't dive much deeper on these issues. | 16:28 |
| kanzure | hold on, i'm untangling that sentence | 16:29 |
| kanzure | it's a hairy beast | 16:29 |
| * fenn reads the backlog | 16:29 | |
| kanzure | aaronw: ah, i see. that's a cool one | 16:29 |
| aaronw | If 1) someone else is infringing your right, and 2) believes in good faith they have a license from you, and 3) you know they believe that, and 4) you don't stop them in some reasonable amount of time, then 5) they might be allowed to continue. | 16:29 |
| fenn | kanzure: reprap can't patent their stuff because it's been published | 16:30 |
| kanzure | and #4 would be stopping them via i.e. patent law whereas at first everything was under, say, copyright law | 16:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: true, but the patent office is full of dicks | 16:30 |
| fenn | now, makerbot could invent some new reprap-based idea and patent it | 16:30 |
| kanzure | hm | 16:30 |
| fenn | but that's not what you're talking about, so pay no attentio to me | 16:31 |
| kanzure | well, consider the case where makerbot invents and patents some new reprap-based idea and patents that | 16:31 |
| kanzure | couldn't they sue anyone for making further alterations similar to theirs? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | even though other people might only be altering the original reprap designs | 16:31 |
| kanzure | i think this is why the biobrick foundation "community agreement license" thingy was made- "i promise to not patent troll" | 16:32 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, the GPLv3 has similar arrangements, but due to the fact that they're basically contract terms that nobody signs, it's only partially useful to you. | 16:33 |
| parolang | I think the term "derived work" only applies to copyright law, and therefore doesn't affect hardware. | 16:33 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 16:33 |
| jrayhawk | It'll stop other source-distributing projects from operating as they'd wish, but compiling-into-physical-objects projects can still ignore the licenses. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | i don't want to stop source-distribution projects | 16:35 |
| kanzure | and i don't want to stop compiling-into-physical-objects projects | 16:35 |
| kanzure | i want to stop compiling-into-physical-objects projects from stopping *other* compile projects | 16:35 |
| jrayhawk | I don't think that's possible without signed contracts. | 16:36 |
| parolang | jrayhawk: I think the question is concerning patents. | 16:36 |
| kanzure | signed contracts can do that, how exactly? | 16:36 |
| jrayhawk | Patent agreements. | 16:36 |
| parolang | Which is why, for example, you couldn't reverse engineer an intel chip and stick it on skdb (I guess). | 16:36 |
| parolang | But could you improve on an intel chip and stick *that* on skdb? | 16:37 |
| kanzure | i think reverse engineering is separate | 16:37 |
| aaronw | kanzure, how do you think project 1 might stop project 2? | 16:37 |
| aaronw | by getting a patent on its modifications of the open source design? | 16:38 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:38 |
| kanzure | also, legal extortion | 16:38 |
| jrayhawk | or even getting a patent on the original design because the patent office is a worthless sack of shit. | 16:38 |
| kanzure | right | 16:38 |
| kanzure | $200k in legal fees is enough to kill a peasant | 16:38 |
| aaronw | jrayhawk, that's an issue, for sure. | 16:38 |
| aaronw | one answer that's been suggested is defensive publication | 16:39 |
| aaronw | that is, publishing the original design in a form that patent examiners can use as prior art | 16:39 |
| kanzure | ooh ooh what about anti-patent-trolling contracts that you sign and get notified in public? | 16:39 |
| aaronw | e.g. http://www.defensivepublications.org/login.jsp | 16:40 |
| parolang | kanzure: So you have to sign the contract before you can download? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | parolang: no | 16:40 |
| kanzure | this would be for original publishers, mainly | 16:41 |
| fenn | "Makerbot has dealt with at least one user that was building makerbot designs and selling them" what does "dealt with" mean? | 16:41 |
| aaronw | kanzure, you mean, basically, a non-assertion promise. | 16:41 |
| aaronw | correct? | 16:41 |
| aaronw | fenn: that's covered in the backlog. keep reading. | 16:41 |
| kanzure | do non-assertion promises work? | 16:41 |
| kanzure | heh i think i can wire skdb to automatically generate "defensive publications" via the defensivepublications.org web pages | 16:42 |
| kanzure | since all the details should be provided in the skdb package (more or less) | 16:43 |
| aaronw | kanzure, they have some use. but if you require contributions to be under FOSS licenses with patent licenses included in them, that could be useful as well. | 16:43 |
| aaronw | kanzure, that would be a fun trick | 16:43 |
| fenn | heh gnome-terminal recognizes *.com as a link but not *.org | 16:44 |
| kanzure | probably because of java namespaces involving "org" | 16:44 |
| fenn | nah java namespaces include all tld's | 16:45 |
| fenn | and they start with the tdl anyway | 16:45 |
| kanzure | well, i have sufficiently proved that i suck at java | 16:45 |
| aaronw | It's ok, Java sucks at you, too. | 16:46 |
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| kanzure | it seems that the patent issues are too broad because, as it is, anyone could use you anyway because they might have a patent for a related design/device | 16:47 |
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| kanzure | so maybe i should just ignore it | 16:47 |
| jrayhawk | That's almost how the software world works. | 16:47 |
| fenn | yeah, worrying about patents is stupid | 16:47 |
| kanzure | *could use one | 16:48 |
| fenn | people only sue when they are certain to make more money from suing than they spend on lawyers | 16:48 |
| jrayhawk | GPLv3 at least stops major players from being dicks. | 16:48 |
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| jrayhawk | No, they also sue as 1) a silencing tactic and 2) a message to others who might try to enter their market | 16:49 |
| fenn | aaronw: do you know anything about how the CC "non-commercial" clause applies in reality? | 16:50 |
| fenn | i was always confused about both what people intended and what it actually means legally | 16:50 |
| aaronw | fenn, I'm not sure I've ever seen one applied in reality. | 16:50 |
| jrayhawk | Both the OSI and the DSFG principles would keep "non-commercial" from being allowed to enter SKDB anyway. (Assuming Bryan actually uses one of those.) | 16:51 |
| aaronw | The meaning of "commercial" is very difficult to ascertain | 16:51 |
| aaronw | CC themselves did a user poll for this purpose. | 16:51 |
| aaronw | it's incompatible with free software principles, and generally a bad idea, IMO | 16:52 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: not necessarily. we'll have metadata on proprietary designs too | 16:52 |
| fenn | you just "won't be allowed" to use them, sorta like wget "isnt allowed" to ignore robots.txt | 16:52 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: so it seems like a "we won't be a patent troll" notery contract would do wonders to maybe show the plaintiffs acting in contempt of their word (per #1 silencers and #2 territorial bastards) | 16:52 |
| kanzure | this would be sufficient to me- even though other entities could presumably sue over IP bullshit | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | But to be even slightly practical, you'd need to get that contract with everyone you distribute to. | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | Which is impractical in and of itself. | 16:53 |
| kanzure | no, just the originators i would think? | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | Your concern is someone using the original design or a modification of that design to acquire a patent...? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | ooh ooh how about only when the originator of the designs is a corporate entity? i.e. not an individual | 16:54 |
| kanzure | my concern is that someone comes into the scene, releases an open source death star, and then people start using it; the original person then sues the fuck out of them | 16:54 |
| kanzure | aaronw: mentioned estoppel might be able to help fight that | 16:55 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, yes, then your plan would work fine. Obviously you'd need to talk to a lawyer to work out how things would be organized... | 16:55 |
| kanzure | what i want to prevent is *others* (who are involved in SKDB, open source hardware, etc.) from preventing others from manufacturing/making shit | 16:55 |
| kanzure | in so far as the "others" are following the OSI principles | 16:56 |
| kanzure | er.. fooey. this gets complicated | 16:56 |
| aaronw | kanzure, I also said that if you get contributions under licenses (like gplv3 or apache) with explicit patent provisions, the work may be done for you | 16:56 |
| kanzure | yeah but what if they don't have the patents yet? | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | You might talk to a patent lawyer to see if non-assertion promises could possibly work without a signature. | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | s/a signature/notarization/ | 16:57 |
| fenn | kanzure: gpl3 says "i will not patent the results of work building on this software' | 16:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: hot diggity | 16:57 |
| aaronw | kanzure, it also says "all patent claims owned or controlled by the contributor, whether already acquired or hereafter acquired" | 16:58 |
| jrayhawk | I think it's actually "I will not enforce patents [...]" | 16:58 |
| jrayhawk | Patenting itself is still fine. | 16:58 |
| fenn | oh | 16:58 |
| kanzure | i'd like to see the "i will not enforce patents" in courts | 16:58 |
| fenn | "all patent claims" really? | 16:59 |
| fenn | or just ones relating to the software in question? | 16:59 |
| aaronw | Again, though, I'm not a patent lawyer and i'm not speaking on behalf of SFLC. If you are interested in applying to SFLC for actual legal advice, you can write to help@softwarefreedom.org, although I don't make the decision about who we accept as clients. | 16:59 |
| jrayhawk | You should just read the license. It's saner than we're making it sound. | 16:59 |
| aaronw | fenn: it's limited to patent claims related to the software. and i agree with jrayhawk. | 16:59 |
| jrayhawk | Though it's still tied to license acceptence, which has issues. | 16:59 |
| aaronw | there's not substitute for RTFL | 16:59 |
| * fenn reads | 17:00 | |
| aaronw | jrayhawk, not sure what you mean there, but i probably disagree with you. | 17:00 |
| aaronw | copyright licenses don't have to be "accepted" because if you don't agree to be bound by them, you don't have the right to use the copyrighted work at all. | 17:01 |
| aaronw | so you either use the work under the license, or you're infringing. | 17:01 |
| jrayhawk | expand "use" | 17:02 |
| aaronw | copy, modify, distribute, prepare derivative works of | 17:02 |
| fenn | ok my eyes glazed over after about twenty seconds | 17:03 |
| jrayhawk | The originator of the license is not bound to the license, which is problematic in the Bryan "person distributes something openly; gets evil" use case, and... | 17:03 |
| fenn | the TENTACLES OF EVIL clause | 17:04 |
| fenn | test* | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | A consumer of the licensed material does not necessicarily need to copy, modify, distribute, or prepare derivative works of it in order make the "patent original or modified versions of the design, then be evil" use case. | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | err, bound by the license | 17:05 |
| fenn | btw jrayhawk, the four freedoms didn't come from OSI; "The Free Software Definition, written by Richard Stallman and published by Free Software Foundation" | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | oh right i am retarded | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | Just a big clarifying thing for people playing at home: a license is for granting rights and does not need notarization; giving up rights can only be done under notarization. | 17:07 |
| fenn | i think it's more succinct and yet identical to the 10 debian points (examples? really?) | 17:07 |
| aaronw | Everyone, it's been a pleasure, I have to get going. I hope you sort out your questions, but mostly I hope you hack on your projects and do not get too weighed down by legal issues. | 17:07 |
| fenn | thanks aaronw | 17:07 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: so every click through agreement is void? | 17:07 |
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| jrayhawk | Yes :) | 17:07 |
| fenn | ok hold on while i go set stuff on fire and sue people for letting me do it | 17:08 |
| jrayhawk | Only if you already had the right to set stuff on fire. | 17:08 |
| fenn | it's my god-given right | 17:08 |
| jrayhawk | Uh... have fun defending that. | 17:08 |
| genehacker | flamewar? | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | Nope. | 17:09 |
| fenn | kanzure in the diybio "is this open source?" context, you might want to have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines#debian-legal_tests_for_DFSG_compliance | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | Well, the click-through agreement is void if you never copy, modify, distribute, or prepare derivative works of the material in question. | 17:11 |
| jrayhawk | Otherwise you have the choice between operating under the terms of the license or being liable for infringement. | 17:12 |
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| jrayhawk | Click-throughs are wishful thinking that courts will grant some workaround to basic copyright law in favor of content creators, which does happen from time to time. | 17:17 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundExchange , for instance. | 17:17 |
| fenn | kanzure will you buy me one of these? http://www.skyscan.be/products/1172.htm | 17:17 |
| jrayhawk | If you create a song, it is mandatorily licensed to radio stations for a set fee. | 17:18 |
| fenn | yeah and it's amazing we still have that law | 17:18 |
| jrayhawk | And yet people keep voting for jerks like Biden. | 17:18 |
| fenn | what does biden say? | 17:19 |
| jrayhawk | the RIAA and the MPAA are good for america and they're good for you :) | 17:19 |
| kanzure | fenn: it seems to be "ask for price" | 17:19 |
| fenn | good for breakfast | 17:19 |
| fenn | kanzure: that should fit your unknowable budget perfectly then :) | 17:19 |
| kanzure | uh oh | 17:20 |
| kanzure | it's not nice to test the limits of the budget like this | 17:20 |
| kanzure | ALSO i still haven't rigged up paypal :( | 17:21 |
| fenn | huh 27mm maximum object size | 17:22 |
| fenn | that's a lot smaller than i expected | 17:22 |
| fenn | gotta chop off the mouse's head first | 17:22 |
| fenn | i mean, uh, perfect for scanning legos, yeah, that's it | 17:23 |
| jrayhawk | Fenn: What do you think is the relationship between the Free Software Definition and GFDL invariant sections? | 17:23 |
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| fenn | GFDL invariant sections are bullshit and should never even have made it into the license | 17:24 |
| fenn | in fact i don't see the need for GFDL at all | 17:24 |
| fenn | if you want to license cover art separately, go ahead | 17:25 |
| kanzure | neither of you answered my original question re: open source projects that have multiple files under different licenses | 17:25 |
| kanzure | is this good, bad, evil, to be encouraged? | 17:25 |
| fenn | considered harmful | 17:25 |
| jrayhawk | This is part of the GPL's ambiguity with regards to what's "mere aggregation" | 17:26 |
| fenn | it basically just increases the workload because you have to make sure n! combinations are compatible | 17:26 |
| jrayhawk | It is the GPL's biggest problem. | 17:26 |
| QuantumG | so long as the licenses are "compatible" its common | 17:26 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: if i put a collection of short stories in the same book, it's "mere aggregation" | 17:27 |
| fenn | how is that ambiguous? | 17:27 |
| fenn | if i use text from a GPL'ed book on the cover, that's a derived work, but could also be considered fair use | 17:27 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, the distinction gets hairier as time goes on. | 17:28 |
| jrayhawk | As more and more stuff gets aggregated and its relationship becomes closer and more ambiguous as to its derivation. | 17:31 |
| fenn | also they could just use a trademark on the cover, that solves 95% of the arguments for gfdl bullshit | 17:31 |
| jrayhawk | Word. Though sane projects don't give a shit in the first place. | 17:32 |
| QuantumG | its spelled "werd" | 17:32 |
| fenn | i really didn't like the way GNU handled the reaction to GFDL either | 17:32 |
| jrayhawk | True dat. | 17:32 |
| fenn | like a blind enraged bull stampeding all logic and tact out of the way | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | The usage dates back to the civil rights movement. http://bit.ly/cQQwJM | 17:33 |
| jrayhawk | Well, you have to understand that most FSF members are there due to their admiration of Stallman. | 17:33 |
| jrayhawk | And I don't think Stallman has ever behaved responsibly around the concepts of reason or tact. | 17:34 |
| fenn | he seems to do pretty good with logic | 17:35 |
| jrayhawk | He recently said something I didn't instantly hate him for! | 17:36 |
| jrayhawk | He actually had a carefully thought out response to dual licensing. | 17:36 |
| jrayhawk | Specifically "this is probably a net gain for the free software community" rather than "THEY'RE EVIL BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALREADY US" | 17:37 |
| jrayhawk | which is his normal approach to the situation | 17:37 |
| jrayhawk | Stallman normally behaves not only as if his value system is superior to all others, but that *the mere existence of other value systems are not worth consideration in any of his thoughts or actions* | 17:40 |
| jrayhawk | Which means he is (normally) incapable of doing anything other than trolling. | 17:40 |
| QuantumG | sigh | 17:41 |
| QuantumG | dude, all he talks about is why his value system is better than others. | 17:41 |
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| QuantumG | he not only acknowledges them, he demolishes them | 17:42 |
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| QuantumG | the only thing he misses is that some of us don't wanna be smelly hippies who live our lives constrained by a self imposed moral code. | 17:42 |
| QuantumG | Or, as I have said on previous occasions: I completely agree with Stallman's philosophy, but the difference between he and I is that I can be bought. | 17:43 |
| jrayhawk | He demolishes them within the context of his own value system, which is is a tautological approach that serves only to convince people already subscribed to that value system. | 17:44 |
| QuantumG | uh huh. I've seen people who were complete skeptics walk out of his speaking engagements converted. | 17:44 |
| QuantumG | he lays down a logical foundation that is attractive to people who like to think of themselves as moral and have never questioned their beliefs in regards to software freedom. | 17:45 |
| jrayhawk | You throw around value-importation words like "moral" and "foundation" far too freely for me to think that you're interested in understanding what I'm saying, so I think I'll give up. | 17:47 |
| QuantumG | I think you misunderstand language.. words mean whatever people find them of value to mean. Stallman's sermons consist of: an anecdote about a printer which establishes the "motivating harm" that he experienced to define the term "freedom".. | 17:49 |
| QuantumG | which is pretty funny really.. as if he would just use "software freedom" or "end user freedom to use and modify software" he'd at least not be using the word in an unloaded fashion | 17:51 |
| QuantumG | but it's more powerful to just use "freedom" so he does that. | 17:51 |
| QuantumG | During this analogy, and a little bit after, he diminishes what you or I would call "the developer's freedom".. he would never say that though, cause that would name it, and by naming it you give it power. | 17:52 |
| QuantumG | and what's more, he wants you thinking that there's only one kind of freedom that matters.. the end user's freedom. | 17:53 |
| QuantumG | The anecdote now becomes about establishing the rightful way for end users to think about programmers: as self-less monks that just want end users to be free. | 17:54 |
| QuantumG | Stallman talks about how hard he worked to make GNU (or, if the anecdote is really old, that LISP machine) and how he meeked out a living selling tapes to people. | 17:55 |
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| QuantumG | sometimes he'll even talk about how he always figured he could go wait tables instead of being a programmer.. | 17:56 |
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| QuantumG | the war mentality is invoked around this point. Sacrifice for freedom.. it's all very baby boomer. | 18:02 |
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| hundred-ideas | are the logs at designfiles.org/~kanzure/irclog.txt? | 18:06 |
| fenn | designfiles.org/irclogs.txt | 18:10 |
| fenn | but that's last updated march 13 | 18:10 |
| fenn | guess the bot went away | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | That "werd" thing is the most interesting thing I've read today. | 18:11 |
| fenn | yep | 18:12 |
| hundred-ideas | oh thanks | 18:12 |
| QuantumG | yeah, someone told me I misspelt "werd" once so I googled it :) | 18:12 |
| hundred-ideas | oh, so what did I miss? As I went to my meeting I was thinking that perhaps what I would do is publish all my design files and just link to a wiki page for the licensing that everyone interested can edit and iterate on | 18:13 |
| fenn | '"Word" is the shortened form of the phrase: "my word is my bond" which was originated by inmates in U.S. prisons.' | 18:13 |
| fenn | WERD is probably a backronym | 18:13 |
| jrayhawk | "Searches related to werd: microsoft werd" | 18:13 |
| fenn | or a blackronym :) | 18:15 |
| QuantumG | heh | 18:15 |
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| jrayhawk | Language considered as implying the faith or authority of the person who utters it; statement; affirmation; declaration; promise. "Obey thy parents; keep thy word justly." --Shak. "I know you brave, and take you at your word." --Dryden. | 18:17 |
| hundred-ideas | ok, so I'll release stuff with an open source hardware WORD. Or is it OSH WERD? | 18:17 |
| jrayhawk | I'll start referring to CPU architecture by werd-length. | 18:18 |
| QuantumG | hehe | 18:18 |
| QuantumG | after every instruction the cpu says "werd" to express its agreement at the righteousness of the execution. | 18:19 |
| jrayhawk | hee | 18:20 |
| jrayhawk | "word" means disagreement in the context of "had a word", and agreement in the context of "kept your word" | 18:22 |
| jrayhawk | word is a confusing word :( | 18:22 |
| QuantumG | werd | 18:22 |
| kanzure | did anyone reply to hundred-ideas | 18:25 |
| jrayhawk | no | 18:26 |
| hundred-ideas | :( | 18:27 |
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| kanzure | hundred-ideas: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hundred-ideas-log.txt | 18:28 |
| kanzure | start reading at 16:18 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@140.247.248.192] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] | 18:30 |
| hundred-ideas | thanks | 18:31 |
| hundred-ideas | I like the werd license! | 18:31 |
| hundred-ideas | link not working | 18:32 |
| kanzure | what's not working about it | 18:33 |
| hundred-ideas | timing out | 18:33 |
| kanzure | it loads for me | 18:34 |
| hundred-ideas | wget http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hundred-ideas-log.txt | 18:34 |
| hundred-ideas | --19:33:30-- http://designfiles.org/%7Ebryan/hundred-ideas-log.txt | 18:34 |
| hundred-ideas | => `hundred-ideas-log.txt' | 18:34 |
| hundred-ideas | Resolving designfiles.org... 146.6.84.36 | 18:34 |
| hundred-ideas | Connecting to designfiles.org|146.6.84.36|:80... | 18:34 |
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| kanzure | one sec | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | 100 120k 100 120k 0 0 18538 0 0:00:06 0:00:06 --:--:-- 89052 | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | worked for me! | 18:35 |
| hundred-ideas | hmmmm | 18:36 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, he's on DHCP. There's probably a resolver you have that's caching inappropriately long. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | try this: http://pastebin.ca/1843014 | 18:36 |
| jrayhawk | You might try using Google's nameservers or the old BBN nameservers. | 18:38 |
| kanzure | the "see the license of this content at the wiki" probably won't work because someone can edit it and just reference a particular edit version number | 18:39 |
| kanzure | but please read the backlog | 18:39 |
| kanzure | there are some things you'll like | 18:39 |
| kanzure | defensive publication, estoppel, any commercial/legal entity that is the initial publisher of "open source hardware" has to have a publicly notarized non-assertion promise re: patent trolling, and then licensing the hardware designs / overall kit via GPL/BSD/TAPR/CC/WTFPL/WERD, and trademarking (which is mostly useful for people who want to maintain brand identity, like makerbot industries) | 18:47 |
| kanzure | estoppel is "a person from denying or asserting anything to the contrary of that which has, in contemplation of law, been established as the truth, either by the acts of judicial or legislative officers, or by his own deed, acts, or representations, either express or implied." | 18:48 |
| kanzure | oops, i meant to say "estoppel is a doctrine which precludes ..." | 18:49 |
| fenn | trademarking is a good thing. both firefox and debian are correct and did the right thing. | 18:49 |
| kanzure | debian is trademarked? | 18:49 |
| fenn | debian got pissy because ff didn't let them distribute modified copies of ff as "firefox" because it was trademarked, so debian released it as "iceweasel" instead | 18:50 |
| kanzure | right | 18:50 |
| kanzure | iirc, the modification was something really really small and ridiculous | 18:50 |
| kanzure | but i don't remember what | 18:50 |
| jrayhawk | The non-assertion promise could be made very interesting; it could be structured such that patents will not be enforced IF source is published, and/or against anyone else who's signed the non-assertion promise. | 18:50 |
| jrayhawk | Something like an EU of patent peace-treaties. | 18:51 |
| jrayhawk | Or you could make the NATO of patent peace agreements. | 18:51 |
| kanzure | "patent peace" ha, ha | 18:51 |
| kanzure | i bet some higher up orgs would dig that buzzword | 18:51 |
| fenn | more like 'mutually assured destruction' | 18:51 |
| fenn | (the foundation of NATO, in fact) | 18:51 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, nuclear arms are definitely a close allegory. | 18:52 |
| kanzure | i.e. they fucking destroy your life? | 18:52 |
| jrayhawk | Patent trolling companies are rogue nations! | 18:52 |
| jrayhawk | If clever you could grow the agreement pool to the point where it becomes untenable to NOT be a part of the agreement pool. | 18:54 |
| jrayhawk | Then you have successfully destroyed the patent system. | 18:54 |
| kanzure | destroyed the patent system? i guess that would make me a reverse patent troll | 18:54 |
| fenn | no, then you just made it a requirement that everybody owns at least one patent | 18:54 |
| jrayhawk | You don't need to own a patent to agree not to use patents against whomever the agreement specified. | 18:55 |
| jrayhawk | I think IBM has a patent on the business method of patent trolling at this point, btw. | 18:56 |
| hundred-ideas | stuck in a conversation/ will review later | 18:59 |
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| kanzure | it's called s-c-r-e-e-n | 19:01 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if creativecommons.org would be willing to sponsor that | 19:02 |
| kanzure | those guys are militant bastards when it comes to these things :) | 19:02 |
| fenn | patent pools don't work for the little guys | 19:03 |
| kanzure | i haven't seen a patent pool based on signing away patent-troll-ability | 19:04 |
| kanzure | or a patent pool based on OSI/DFSG values | 19:04 |
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| kanzure | hi KingJacob | 19:05 |
| KingJacob | hey kanzure | 19:05 |
| fenn | trolls don't join patent pools; they have nothing to gain (since they don't do anything that would require a license) | 19:05 |
| kanzure | i think you're missing the point | 19:05 |
| KingJacob | making any progress? | 19:06 |
| fenn | wats the point i might be missing? | 19:06 |
| kanzure | this isn't about your run-of-the-mill patnet troll | 19:06 |
| kanzure | *patent | 19:06 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1="20070244837".PGNR.&OS=DN/20070244837&RS=DN/20070244837 | 19:08 |
| jrayhawk | even patent trolls have to worry about some things :) | 19:08 |
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| jrayhawk | Becoming a notary is easy in most states, by the way. | 19:10 |
| hundred-ideas | ok | 19:24 |
| hundred-ideas | I am back. | 19:24 |
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| hundred-ideas | hello, many-armed gnusha. You are a distributed pick-n-place robot. | 19:25 |
| * gnusha picks pikachu | 19:25 | |
| kanzure | just setting up logging | 19:26 |
| hundred-ideas | So, Sam Starr is basically done with his bicycle lab (http://velolabproject.com/). If were to ask him to publish his designs FLOSS, how should he do so and where should he put them? | 19:27 |
| --- Log opened Tue Mar 16 17:29:48 2010 | ||
| fenn | 1) don't use sketchup in the future (I blame google for this) 2) publish sketchup files online somewhere 3) publish bill of materials next to it 4) grant license to redistribute with a standard license such as GPL or CC 5) notify various mailing lists | 17:29 |
| kanzure | sam uses sketchup too? ugh | 17:30 |
| kanzure | god | 17:30 |
| fenn | presumably there are some instructions for how to actually make it too, but i dont see any evidence of that | 17:30 |
| fenn | i dont really get what "velolab" is though, beyond just a pretty box on wheels | 17:31 |
| fenn | "how to build a box on wheels" | 17:31 |
| kanzure | "1) get a box" | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | 2) get NASA funding | 17:31 |
| kanzure | O_O | 17:31 |
| fenn | "The Velolab is a facilitator for hybridized creativity." AWESOME~ | 17:31 |
| kanzure | ugh | 17:32 |
| fenn | where's my wallet | 17:32 |
| fenn | people don't seem to understand the difference between "visualization" and "design document" | 17:33 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: i put a symlink in public_html and set Options +FollowSymLinks in the apache config. it's still 403 forbidding, even though it's all chmod a+r | 17:35 |
| hundred-ideas | "...How is this different from TechShop? Proprietary equipment isn't forced. The reason this is interesting is because it creates a market for open source hardware kits." | 17:38 |
| kanzure | that sounds backwards | 17:39 |
| kanzure | but, also, techshop is different because of the gym membership model | 17:39 |
| QuantumG | pfft, as if there's any hot chicks at techshop | 17:40 |
| kanzure | meredith went :( although i don't know if she's hot or not | 17:40 |
| kanzure | anyone here ever met her? | 17:40 |
| kanzure | :P i'm totally kidding btw | 17:41 |
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| kanzure | huh you have to add +x? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | anyway, http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt | 17:44 |
| kanzure | ybit: you're welcome | 17:44 |
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| kanzure | hundred-ideas: btw, channel logs can now be found at http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt | 17:49 |
| kanzure | they are updated immediately at each message | 17:49 |
| hundred-ideas | neat | 17:49 |
| fenn | +x on a directory means others can look at its contents | 17:55 |
| fenn | man i didnt get anything done today but wallow in email | 17:55 |
| hundred-ideas | gtg | 17:56 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i'm kind of surprised that you even /have/ a wallet | 18:07 |
| fenn | i don't | 18:11 |
| fenn | it was rhetorical, and not in a "where's my jetpack" sense either | 18:12 |
| fenn | weasel words set off my scam detector | 18:13 |
| kanzure | "where's my wallet" -> "oh wait i don't have a wallet because i don't wish to participate in this sort of bullshit" | 18:14 |
| kanzure | or "oh wait i don't have a jetpack because .." etc. | 18:14 |
| kanzure | don't worry, i got the intended meaning the first time around | 18:14 |
| fenn | "did I just get scammed? where's my wallet" | 18:14 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:14 |
| fenn | such a versatile phrase | 18:15 |
| jrayhawk | r allows you to 'read' the directory (to get a listing of files), x allows you to actually do anything useful, such as stat()ing files within. | 18:41 |
| jrayhawk | This made more sense back when the UNIX "everything is a text file" philosophy applied to directories. | 18:41 |
| jrayhawk | like it was thought desirable that 'cat some_directory' would behave like 'ls some_directory' does now | 18:44 |
| QuantumG | s/text// | 18:44 |
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| kanzure | mining guy weighs in on slashdot: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1584878&cid=31500718 | 18:56 |
| kanzure | oh lookie, paul replied in that thread: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1584878&cid=31503792 | 18:58 |
| kanzure | oh wait, that was j. andrew rogers? doesn't he post to twister | 18:59 |
| kanzure | s/twister/sifter/ | 18:59 |
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| kanzure | stalk: Alexander Sotirov | 20:19 |
| kanzure | someone on slashdot linked over to http://www.phreedom.org/solar/code/tinype/ | 20:20 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/19991128041233/http://muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html "A Whirlwind Tutorial on Creating Really Teensy ELF Executables for Linux | 20:21 |
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| kanzure | wtf "I've had this problem with gcc for a while, with C++ code. I was writing some embedded code, and I wanted to use some simple C++. Just by adding a #include of one of the stream libraries. the executable grew by 200k, even though none of it was referenced. The C++ code in iostream is template-generated anyway, so even if the compiler wanted to include the code, it can't until I instantiate it." | 20:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/search-results.php?keywords=series+of+tubes | 20:31 |
| kanzure | :( "exception" | 20:31 |
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| kanzure | this looks like a large portfolio: http://jess3.com/ | 20:52 |
| kanzure | maybe it's more than one person doing all those websites? | 20:52 |
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| hundred-ideas | hey kanzure, could you add some code to automatically paginate the log? http://ui-patterns.com/pattern/Pagination | 20:58 |
| fenn | hey kanzure could you implement a realtime http streaming log with comet push? | 20:59 |
| hundred-ideas | also, is the last update of the log at 20:55 CST? | 21:00 |
| fenn | -rw-r--r-- 1 ybit ybit 25314385 2010-03-16 18:28 /var/www/irclogs.txt | 21:01 |
| kanzure | ack: http://www.texaslinuxfest.org/talks/2010/apt-get-for-hardware/ | 21:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: he's probably talking about http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt | 21:02 |
| fenn | where is that? | 21:02 |
| kanzure | up jrayhawk's ass | 21:02 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: it seems to be in synch with the channel at the moment | 21:03 |
| kanzure | i've been looking for some auto-pagination utilities but i've found nothing that parses irssi logs directly (wtf) | 21:03 |
| fenn | can't you just do tail -n 1000 | 21:04 |
| fenn | tail -fn 1000 | 21:04 |
| kanzure | i guess i could split up the file into chunks on a cron job | 21:04 |
| fenn | cron never seems to work right for me (i'm probably doing it wrong) | 21:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: you know about tail -f ? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:06 |
| kanzure | i use it to watch apache logs when i'm completely bored senseless | 21:06 |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: well, it's not auto-updating yet, but for now see: http://gnusha.org/logs/log_ay | 21:07 |
| hundred-ideas | You are in PST? | 21:09 |
| kanzure | no | 21:09 |
| kanzure | gnusha.org is | 21:09 |
| kanzure | the logs are being taken by gnusha now | 21:09 |
| kanzure | hi gnusha! | 21:09 |
| gnusha | hello | 21:10 |
| hundred-ideas | hi there gnusha! | 21:14 |
| kanzure | guess he's shy | 21:14 |
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| genehacker | gnusha's our bot correct? | 21:20 |
| kanzure | no | 21:23 |
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| kanzure | hundred-ideas: http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 21:28 |
| kanzure | there you go.. by day | 21:28 |
| fenn | ok now make an animated tag cloud based on hyperbolic discounting | 21:28 |
| kanzure | fwwww | 21:28 |
| hundred-ideas | cool. great. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | also there's a lot missing in http://gnusha.org/logs/initial.log | 21:29 |
| kanzure | (the log format changed) | 21:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: do i have to | 21:30 |
| fenn | you will be slandered if you don't acquiesce to my demands | 21:31 |
| kanzure | :P | 21:31 |
| * fenn mumbles something about a train | 21:33 | |
| kanzure | hundred-ideas: have you seen this? http://heybryan.org/world_domination.html it's a WIP i guess | 21:40 |
| kanzure | i want | 21:58 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20060414235357/http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/evolution.htm | 21:58 |
| kanzure | gulp i'm going on after apache cassandra at texas linux fest | 22:02 |
| kanzure | that's a tough one to beat | 22:02 |
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| genehacker | http://mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/nanolab/index.html | 22:09 |
| jrayhawk | Usually you want tail -F | 22:16 |
| kanzure | your MOM wants tail | 22:19 |
| kanzure | -f | 22:19 |
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| QuantumG | <colt> we're boldly going where hundreds have been | 22:21 |
| QuantumG | <quantumg> your mom? | 22:22 |
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