| --- Log opened Fri Oct 29 00:00:08 2010 | ||
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| kanzure | more "take on the machine" video stuff http://www.vimby.com/video/sponsor/us/all/detail/10908 | 00:22 |
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| kanzure | light-related fashion items? http://www.romanillumination.com/company.htm | 00:23 |
| kanzure | $150/yard haha no thanks | 00:24 |
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| fenn | reprap for tissue engineering? | 01:51 |
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| archels | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/86514518/diy-arduino-eeg | 02:55 |
| archels | ^ re-inventing the wheel for the 42nd time | 02:55 |
| Utopiah | this could be a feature of kickstarter "How is your project different from this other project?" (here http://openeeg.sourceforge.net maybe) | 02:56 |
| archels | yes, OpenEEG is the first that comes to mind. You can just re-use the analog board and use your own digital board (e.g. Arduino). | 02:57 |
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| Utopiah | could share the information a lot better but then it could also quickly become less about inefficiency (read "personal fun") and maybe more political (read how you spread the money) | 03:00 |
| Utopiah | I mean if their answer is "well we are not really different, just new" then people would be less willing to giving money but if they say "well we could work with them, set up a network on the topic" then it means money will be shared thus allocated | 03:01 |
| archels | OpenEEG is about as open as open hardware can get, imho | 03:01 |
| archels | not to mention the dozens of other homebrew EEG designs with (partially) open hardware & software. | 03:02 |
| Utopiah | but since they started sth new, either they didn't know about it (thus telling them would help) or they knew but think they could do sth better, at least different | 03:02 |
| archels | It's impossible they didn't know about it, unless they are Google-handicapped. | 03:03 |
| archels | It looks like their goal is cheap & simple (I read the word "art" somewhere). | 03:04 |
| archels | Which is all good and well, but why they need $1k for that is beyond me. | 03:04 |
| Utopiah | to make marketing (read "knowledge diffusion") to get more money of course | 03:05 |
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| archels | heh. Their little circuit would probably be $10 cost price at qty 10~20. | 03:06 |
| Utopiah | they do talk about OpenEEG in the cmment btw | 03:13 |
| Utopiah | and to "4. What exactly is the $1000 for? Can you outline what sort of development and testing you're planning?" they replied "4. Now that we have a working prototype, our next step is cleaning up the board. Through hole soldering so many pieces in close proximity is pretty messy and I'd like the soldering on the final product to be more intuitive" | 03:14 |
| archels | Artsy types shouldn't be allowed to do electrical engineering, anyway. | 03:15 |
| archels | The result is inevitably crap, like the Arduino. | 03:15 |
| Utopiah | right but I dont think they aim at replacing medical brain imaging, rather "democratizing" for any type of purpose especially for people with nearly no EE skilles | 03:18 |
| archels | Which would be fine if they just went ahead and did it, instead of asking for $1k for no apparent reason. | 03:20 |
| Utopiah | you think KickStarter should display in the front page of each project the total of money asked for and blocks representing expected usages? | 03:22 |
| archels | No, I'm just ranting about this particular project. | 03:23 |
| archels | What's that old saying again, the only thing more dangerous than a hardware guy with a code patch is a programmer with a soldering iron? | 03:24 |
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| Utopiah | (Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4008293090480628280# | 03:54 |
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| killall-9 | heh! still using batteries to avoid noise in amplifier - did that 20 years ago | 03:59 |
| killall-9 | much cheaper than a low noise power supply | 03:59 |
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| killall-9 | of couse 20 years ago we didn't had ICs for that - and computers had like 64k of RAM ;-) | 04:01 |
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| kanzure | http://rapcad.org/ | 07:23 |
| kanzure | http://gitorious.org/openscad | 07:23 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 07:28 |
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| kanzure | more videos up http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/transvision-2010-october-22-24-2010/ | 07:41 |
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| kanzure | Call for Book Chapters: FOSS for Sustainable Development in Developing Countries http://webserv.ias.unu.edu/fel/sites/default/files/Call%20for%20Book%20Chapters-FOSS_Sdev.pdf | 07:42 |
| kanzure | (deadline: nov. 5) | 07:42 |
| kanzure | contact: Sam Kritikos <foomedia@gmail.com> | 07:42 |
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| kanzure | ian is adding a python intrepreter to openscad.. | 07:46 |
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| kanzure | cool, ed uthman's image got on to the mit.edu front page http://www.mit.edu/ | 08:39 |
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| kanzure | xcor/masten interview video http://www.dminuszero.com/post/1374633309/everyday-sci-fi | 09:09 |
| kanzure | "At a recent event in San Francisco, NASA Ames Research Center Director Pete Worden introduced the Hundred Year Starship initiative, a project to embark on a one-way mission from Earth to Mars by 2030 and permanently settle the red planet." | 09:12 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: aren't dennis and pete good friends or something? | 09:12 |
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| kanzure | http://beanstalkapp.com/ looks like an alternative to unfuddle/github | 09:41 |
| archels | Has this been spammed here yet? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-10/ciot-cic102610.php | 09:46 |
| klafka | ooh kristof koch | 09:47 |
| kanzure | "more than 800 people in the pilot stage of the so-called 1,000 Genomes Project, which aims to complete 2,500 sequences by the end of 2012 at a cost of $120 million." | 09:57 |
| kanzure | wait, it's hosting how much? | 09:57 |
| kanzure | *costing | 09:57 |
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| klafka | what ever happened to the 5,000 genome | 10:15 |
| fenn | i don't get the whole "hundred year starship" thing | 10:17 |
| fenn | first of all, it doesn't take 100 years | 10:17 |
| fenn | second, why can't they return? huh? too hard to shovel some ice into your nuclear rocket's tanks? | 10:18 |
| fenn | third, nuclear rockets? | 10:18 |
| fenn | "What the hell is NASA and the international space programme doing asking the public for handouts?" | 10:19 |
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| kanzure | fenn: some people have been telling me to approach pete worden with some stuff. | 10:36 |
| kanzure | turns out i've been facebook buds with pete for a few years now | 10:37 |
| fenn | he is probably getting his inbox slammed right now what with all the media attention | 10:38 |
| kanzure | so, dennis wants to melt down some moon rock/ore at the ames campus and demonstrate a simple machine tool | 10:39 |
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| kanzure | it's not on the top of his priorities list but if someone showed up and said "i'll do that" he'd like that very much | 10:39 |
| fenn | "No bucks, no Buck Rogers!" | 10:40 |
| kanzure | oh please | 10:40 |
| kanzure | since when | 10:40 |
| fenn | yeah well supposedly they hired worden because of his reputation of getting things done cheaply | 10:41 |
| kanzure | story time! tell me tell me | 10:41 |
| fenn | uh, based on my five minute google search | 10:42 |
| kanzure | you suck at stories :( | 10:42 |
| fenn | http://www.thespacereview.com/article/612/1 | 10:42 |
| fenn | "Worden is an innovator and a risk-taker whose record shows that he can accomplish difficult goals without depending on massive funding." | 10:42 |
| fenn | who is dennis? | 10:42 |
| fenn | i'd love to melt down some moon rock | 10:43 |
| kanzure | this would require a few trips to mountain view | 10:43 |
| kanzure | dennis is http://google.com/search?q=dennis+skycorp | 10:43 |
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| fenn | it'd be cool to make some kind of SLS machine out of a solar concentrator and moon dust | 10:52 |
| kanzure | he agrees | 11:02 |
| fenn | how do you know dennis? and talking now? | 11:09 |
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| * fenn reads about solar pumped lasers | 11:10 | |
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| kanzure | fenn: via QuantumG | 12:01 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: how would piny handle 2M to 2.3M repos? | 12:39 |
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| kanzure | "john lewis on asteroidal resources" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYaf2ZE6LvY | 12:57 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: i meant million, not megabytes | 12:59 |
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| jrayhawk | ooh, good question. I *think* everything is at least 32-bit. | 13:19 |
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| kanzure | no that's not what i'm asking | 13:21 |
| kanzure | scalability, etc. | 13:21 |
| jrayhawk | It wouldn't be particularly performant, but it would be doable. If you wanted this to happen fairly immediately, there'd be issues to work out. | 13:22 |
| kanzure | yeah.. elevenarms wasn't happy when i told him about piny/perl :P | 13:24 |
| kanzure | so he was asking about scalability | 13:24 |
| kanzure | hm. | 13:24 |
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| jrayhawk | That said it's not like the storage architecture is obscure, so it's not like they can't yoink everything and do it better elsewhere. | 13:26 |
| kanzure | this is stupid.. let me get him in here | 13:26 |
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| jrayhawk | I'll be disappearing for 20 minutes or so. | 13:28 |
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| kanzure | okay. | 13:29 |
| kanzure | jblake: he'll be around in a few minutes | 13:29 |
| kanzure | uh. 30. | 13:29 |
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| kanzure | hi jburk | 13:31 |
| jburk | howdy | 13:31 |
| kanzure | any MITRE updates? :D | 13:31 |
| jburk | i dont know very much about that | 13:32 |
| kanzure | oops i'm thinking of jim bark | 13:33 |
| kanzure | haha | 13:33 |
| kanzure | ok, well, how about marshome.org updates | 13:33 |
| jburk | np | 13:34 |
| jburk | what do you want to know | 13:34 |
| kanzure | just if there's anything new :) | 13:34 |
| jburk | yeah a lot going on with it | 13:35 |
| jburk | we have a site in CA which we are planning to build a mars analog research center | 13:35 |
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| kanzure | jburk: know anything about the one in the attacama? | 13:36 |
| jburk | a little | 13:36 |
| kanzure | same idea? | 13:36 |
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| jburk | that one is more desert and has university involvement there. i think it will be multi-use site, whereas the one in CA is only marshome.org | 13:37 |
| kanzure | so are you deploying equipment? | 13:37 |
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| jburk | we are doing site planning now but yes in 2011 | 13:38 |
| kanzure | cool. i've been talking with some people interested in doing some automated manufacturing planning (for mars/moon stuff) ala | 13:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ | 13:39 |
| jburk | haha same here | 13:39 |
| jburk | that will be a component of our stuff including teleoperation | 13:39 |
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| jburk | teleoperation of robots to build/develop the base is one of the features of the marshome.org engineering plan for 1st human settlement | 13:40 |
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| jburk | and the analog research center will be structured around those same topics/themes | 13:41 |
| jburk | myself i am also working on an iphone game | 13:41 |
| jburk | think a game version (like farmville or pizza parlor) of building the base or teleoperating rovers on moon/mars | 13:42 |
| kanzure | why teleoperation- what about autonomous manufacturing? | 13:42 |
| jburk | right | 13:42 |
| kanzure | yeah, there's been some community suggestions of mmo simulations | 13:42 |
| kanzure | realistic simulations poised as a game or something | 13:42 |
| jburk | the mars colony online one is still going on, howard deutsch | 13:42 |
| kanzure | maybe using freecity (the sims clone) or something | 13:43 |
| kanzure | links? | 13:43 |
| jburk | hyperkatgames.com\ | 13:43 |
| kanzure | i might be interested in doing some programming | 13:43 |
| jburk | sorry http://www.hyperkat.com/MarsOnline.html | 13:43 |
| kanzure | (or machining) | 13:43 |
| jburk | yeah if you know objective c or the iphone sdk i could use some help LOL | 13:43 |
| jburk | that goes for anybody else reading this 5 days from now LOL - email me at jburk at 43tech.com | 13:45 |
| jblake | i know haskell and have written microcontroller code to manage CDMA radios, does that help | 13:45 |
| jburk | well go download the xcode stuff and play around with it, email me in a few days :) | 13:46 |
| kanzure | i don't see what mars online has to do with iphone apps | 13:47 |
| jburk | it doesnt you mentioned mmo | 13:47 |
| kanzure | also you should just make it javascript/html5 and not bother with platform-specific code | 13:47 |
| kanzure | jburk: another 12min. sorry for the lag. | 13:48 |
| kanzure | oops | 13:48 |
| jburk | thats a good suggestion | 13:48 |
| kanzure | jblake: another 12min. sorry for the lag. | 13:48 |
| jrayhawk | now i am sad i do not have a secondary name starting with b | 13:49 |
| jrayhawk | i feel all left out | 13:49 |
| jblake | It's really tempting to see if I can throw together a simple city simulator in HTML5+JS | 13:49 |
| kanzure | joe brutus rayhaawk | 13:49 |
| jblake | jrayhawk: jbutthead | 13:49 |
| jburk | oh man | 13:50 |
| kanzure | jblake: didn't sim city go open source at the end of its life? | 13:50 |
| jblake | oh, probably | 13:50 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: can you /nick jdugger for a few minutes? | 13:50 |
| jrayhawk | there are a bunch of existing open source sim-games | 13:50 |
| jrayhawk | jbugger | 13:50 |
| jrayhawk | most of which are more sophisticated than sim city anyway | 13:51 |
| jburk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_video_games | 13:51 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: the idea has been (for a while) to do a simulator with skdb data | 13:51 |
| kanzure | "you just upgraded to vertical milling machine stations! woo" | 13:52 |
| kanzure | or "error: you must first forge the metal" | 13:52 |
| jrayhawk | Ah, so Civilization 6: Your Garage | 13:53 |
| jrayhawk | oh no, a wandering barbarian | 13:53 |
| jrayhawk | the barbarian is impressed by your technological advancement and agrees to become your flunky | 13:53 |
| jburk | ever play buzz aldrins race into space | 13:54 |
| kanzure | was that a real game? | 13:54 |
| jburk | yeah | 13:54 |
| jburk | dos era | 13:54 |
| jburk | its online | 13:55 |
| jblake | Feh, HTML5 canvas doesn't appear to have the kind of expressive power that cairo has. Dealing without clipping regions is just too painful to be worthwhile. | 13:55 |
| jburk | WOW somebodys doing an open source of that http://sourceforge.net/projects/raceintospace/ | 13:56 |
| jburk | i should just join that LOL | 13:56 |
| jburk | "hey everybody, want to do an iphone version?" | 13:57 |
| * kanzure pokes elevenarms | 13:57 | |
| archels | completely off-topic http://iwdrm.tumblr.com/ | 13:59 |
| kanzure | timothyschmidt: ping | 14:02 |
| jblake | this is the most productive conversation i've had about piny in /weeks/ | 14:08 |
| kanzure | i just called him, he's jumping in :/ | 14:08 |
| kanzure | basically elevenarms' concern is about scalability for hundreds of thousands of repos | 14:08 |
| kanzure | and that flatfile hosting might not do the trick here | 14:08 |
| kanzure | he'll probably recommend nosql as a solution | 14:09 |
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| jblake | there are some administrative concerns with that many repos; a few operations like repo creation have global side effects that you'd probably want to batch and consolidate | 14:09 |
| kanzure | for instance, if we were using piny for github | 14:09 |
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| kanzure | hi elevenarms | 14:10 |
| elevenarms | hello all | 14:10 |
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| elevenarms | kanzure catch me up | 14:10 |
| kanzure | so, you were suggesting a database solution for scalability | 14:10 |
| kanzure | jblake and jrayhawk work on a project called piny, it's basically a project management solution for git hosting | 14:10 |
| elevenarms | link? | 14:10 |
| kanzure | https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-web.git/ | 14:10 |
| kanzure | http://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ | 14:11 |
| jrayhawk | http://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ has the best description of what it'll look like | 14:11 |
| jrayhawk | to users, anyway. | 14:11 |
| jblake | it's really depressing that the list of things i haven't done yet is the definitive "this is piny" webpage :-( | 14:11 |
| kanzure | so anyway, | 14:11 |
| kanzure | the idea is that a thingiverse/github clone would have to host a lot of repos | 14:11 |
| elevenarms | I'm concerned with hosting thousands of git repos | 14:12 |
| kanzure | and that this would run into scalability issues | 14:12 |
| kanzure | ok even that | 14:12 |
| jblake | What sorts of scalability issues are you thinking of? | 14:12 |
| elevenarms | how/where will they be stored | 14:12 |
| kanzure | access times, especially into revision history | 14:13 |
| elevenarms | what would the directory structure look like | 14:13 |
| elevenarms | perhaps http://github.com/blog/606-announcing-ernie-2-0-and-2-1 | 14:13 |
| jrayhawk | I think cgit is the only thing that attempts to do operations based on every repo; that might have to be modified extensively. | 14:13 |
| streety | doesn't github blog extensively on their infrastructure? won't man of the same solutions work for thingiverse? | 14:14 |
| kanzure | cgit: http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/about/ | 14:14 |
| jblake | At large scales, we'd probably have the repos on a SAN exported over NFS to the frontend machines, and just organized by partial name if we're concerned about the size of dentries. | 14:14 |
| kanzure | streety: we're not the developers of thingiverse. i'm building a better thingiverse | 14:14 |
| jblake | Piny doesn't do anywhere *near* as much work as github does at the moment. | 14:14 |
| kanzure | streety: there's a lot of things wrong with thingiverse, blah blah blah | 14:14 |
| streety | fair enough but the same point applies | 14:15 |
| kanzure | sure, but if joe and jules want to provide some development work towards that, then why not take it? | 14:15 |
| kanzure | gitorious too | 14:15 |
| kanzure | ok so anyway | 14:15 |
| jblake | As it stands, I suspect we could probably host in the tens-of-thousands of git repos from a single machine; once a repo is created there's essentially no global work that needs to be done and only the most trivial local work to host it. | 14:16 |
| jblake | Administrative tasks would start getting painful at that scale, but we have plans to remove the bits that would be causing problems anyway. | 14:17 |
| jblake | (The largest limiting factors afaik would involve some steps that recreate large config files during repo creation/deletion) | 14:18 |
| jrayhawk | passwd/shadow/group/gshadow et. al can be moved into a bdb | 14:18 |
| jblake | And the apache/cgit/ikiwiki stuff should all be moving to .d style configs, anyway. | 14:19 |
| kanzure | http://develop.github.com/ | 14:19 |
| jblake | cgit or ssh would probably be the main consumers of cpu time at that scale, but those both scale horizontally. | 14:20 |
| jrayhawk | I already moved cgit to a new model. | 14:20 |
| jblake | Oh, excellent. | 14:20 |
| elevenarms | I think the github api is the way to go | 14:20 |
| elevenarms | if were talking foss hardware, solving the project metadata problem is a greater issue | 14:21 |
| jblake | Introducing an API like that would probably cost a lot of CPU and make scalability significantly harder than what we have now. Do you have a big use case for API access to the repos? | 14:21 |
| jrayhawk | Apache might be a bit of a problem, actually. We've got a fair amount of per-project configuration that I'm not sure Apache would be happy to traverse on every request. | 14:22 |
| elevenarms | are you talking about adding an api to piny? | 14:22 |
| jblake | It caches its configuration in memory, doesn't it? | 14:22 |
| kanzure | jblake: elevenarms is talking about writing a website that uses the github api instead of hosting git stuff on its own | 14:22 |
| jblake | Oh, OK. | 14:22 |
| jrayhawk | I'm not interested in getting involved in walled-garden development. | 14:23 |
| jrayhawk | I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make something useful in that ecosystem, though, so have at :) | 14:23 |
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| kanzure | in terms of development time, it is probably faster to just use ready-made solutions, and then replace the bits with custom solutions | 14:26 |
| kanzure | well, actually, it could go either way | 14:26 |
| kanzure | jblake: why are you guys not using gitorious? | 14:27 |
| jblake | It's git. You can just start hosting anywhere now and move around later. | 14:27 |
| kanzure | http://gitorious.org/ | 14:27 |
| kanzure | huh? | 14:27 |
| kanzure | i don't think you understand what the github api lets you do | 14:27 |
| kanzure | elevenarms is talking about using that api so that they solve the scalability issues for you | 14:27 |
| kanzure | (which, they have, somehow) | 14:28 |
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| kanzure | http://gitorious.org/gitorious | 14:28 |
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| jblake | Well, a big claim here is that there isn't really a huge scalability problem inherent in just hosting ikiwikis and git repos; static file hosting has been a solved problem for ages. | 14:29 |
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| jblake | There *is* a scalability problem with doing things like searching across repos and other "big" dynamic tasks. | 14:30 |
| jblake | But piny isn't currently targetting that at all. It's interesting if you guys have a strong use case for that, though, because that will give us some good input on what direction piny wants to move in. | 14:30 |
| kanzure | huh gitorious hosts all of their repos in /gitorious/repos and they store metadata stuff in mysql | 14:31 |
| jrayhawk | They're very interested in categorizing and aggregating information from all repos, but that's the closest thing they've got to dynamic that I've heard so far. | 14:31 |
| jrayhawk | And that's really just a minutely update rather than true dynamicism. | 14:32 |
| jrayhawk | or, rather, something that is just as well served by being accurate to 60 seconds as it is by being fully dynamic. | 14:32 |
| jblake | As long as the kinds of queries would be known ahead of time you could probably get away with post-updates that manage an index and arrange for updates after each commit. That'd get you better than 60 seconds without involving any dynamic work at all. | 14:33 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure how many commits/sec that would handle though | 14:34 |
| kanzure | i guess you'd hit that same problem elsewise | 14:34 |
| kanzure | is gitorious using their own custom git daemon? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | they say they store their repos in /gitorious/ and to clone their src it's git clone git://gitorious.org/gitorious/mainline.git gitorious | 14:34 |
| kanzure | so clearly they are doing at least some funky url rewriting for git paths | 14:35 |
| kanzure | well, i guess if you ran into scalability with commits/sec problems with the post-commit hooks, you can just use post-commit hooks to add work to a queue on some server, and then just work through the queue as fast as possible | 14:35 |
| jblake | Yeah, managing large indexes like that is a relatively well-studied problem. | 14:36 |
| jblake | Anyway, I'm mostly concerned with more precisely what you would want to aggregate over and what kinds of github/gitorious features (like the social network) y'all are interested in? Those are really a dominating concern when it comes to scalability. | 14:39 |
| jrayhawk | It'd be nice if Apache had something similar to Exim's embedded Perl so we could make the configuration stuff fully dynamic. It's really all defined by just one variable, the name of the repo, and 9 lines of templated configuration based on that variable. | 14:40 |
| jblake | We might just want to ditch apache at some point for a lighter server, anyway. | 14:41 |
| jrayhawk | That'd be hard; I don't think anything else supports the PAM user and group nonsense. | 14:41 |
| kanzure | jblake: having a list of friends (and comparing lists to find mutual friends) is definitely something worth doing, but updating a list of friends isn't hard | 14:41 |
| jblake | Well, in comparison to what we're doing now, updating a list of friends would be literally the hardest thing piny does. | 14:41 |
| kanzure | so user profile data would have to be stored somewhere | 14:42 |
| kanzure | presumably ikiwiki has a user page?? | 14:42 |
| jrayhawk | What would 'friends' do? | 14:42 |
| kanzure | that's not quite the same thing | 14:42 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: appease people | 14:42 |
| jrayhawk | No seriously. | 14:43 |
| jblake | Joe: We could do a mod_piny that virtualizes the configuration over all possible repos without too much trouble. | 14:43 |
| kanzure | it's kind of like tags for figuring out what activity feeds to aggregate and show the user | 14:43 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, so it'd just be an RSS system. Hmm. That's interesting. | 14:43 |
| jblake | Ah, "activity feeds", another hard thing we don't do. | 14:43 |
| jblake | At least, per-user feeds. Per-repo is trivially easy. | 14:43 |
| kanzure | well yeah, these things are p. simple in a "dynamic" website (well, simple to implement quickly.. perhaps not immediately scalable) | 14:43 |
| kanzure | updating every single static feed page for each user subscribed to a particular project, just sounds like it's going all backwards | 14:44 |
| kanzure | instead of pulling the feeds when requested | 14:45 |
| jblake | Eh. Commits happen much less often than pageviews. | 14:45 |
| kanzure | i.e. you can imagine 500k users on github that subscribe to 20 projects each; only 10% of those users might actually ping their RSS feeds, or even log in | 14:45 |
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| jblake | With feeds I suppose you get weird numbers like that. Eh. You'd still want to build the per-repo feeds statically and just aggregate on demand, which preserves locality of dynamism. | 14:47 |
| jrayhawk | The user feeds are a little weird, though, because there's only a handful of things you can reliably track. | 14:49 |
| jblake | We don't really track committers at all. I'm not sure where we'd do that, we'd probably have to introduce some kind of a database. Ugh. | 14:49 |
| kanzure | on github you track (via your feed): your friends' actions (not their entire feeds), projects you own/commit to, projects you watch | 14:50 |
| jrayhawk | Tracking committers is just stupid; I don't think that will ever be done. | 14:50 |
| jblake | I think that's what he's asking for with "your friends' actions" though. | 14:50 |
| jrayhawk | Even github can't really do that, they can just make a note of who pushes when. | 14:50 |
| jblake | Oh, that's easier. | 14:50 |
| kanzure | what can't they do? | 14:50 |
| kanzure | *what can't github do? | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | Commits are orthogonal to user identity; at no point does a user need to be associated with Piny in order to commit; only to push. | 14:51 |
| kanzure | can't you sign a commit with your public key? | 14:51 |
| jblake | Sure, but that doesn't have anything to do with piny. | 14:52 |
| jblake | You can do whatever you want to your commits. | 14:52 |
| kanzure | well, github keeps a copy of your public key | 14:52 |
| kanzure | it sometimes links commits to actual users | 14:52 |
| jrayhawk | Github keeps a copy of your public *ssh* key. | 14:52 |
| jrayhawk | For purposes of giving you a transport to push over. | 14:52 |
| kanzure | actually maybe it's just doing a username string match ("hurr we seem to have a 'kanzure' let's link to him") | 14:53 |
| jrayhawk | Unless they have a hook that rejects unsigned commits that I don't know about. | 14:53 |
| jrayhawk | That'd be a good idea, though. | 14:53 |
| kanzure | but they aren't actually doing that for feeds | 14:53 |
| jblake | And I think it's only doing committer-to-user association heuristically, yeah. | 14:53 |
| kanzure | for feeds you primarily watch kanzure/some_repo not "all some_repos" | 14:53 |
| jblake | by which you mean "watch all pushes to the repo named kanzure/some_repo", yes? | 14:54 |
| kanzure | http://github.com/kanzure unless you're me and you're crazy and just watch everything | 14:54 |
| kanzure | sort of- it really just means "tell me anything about the github status feed of kanzure/some_repo" which might be commits, but might also be "so-and-so forked this project" | 14:55 |
| kanzure | (github only knows about forks when you click "fork" of course..) | 14:55 |
| jblake | Whatever. So the repo knows how to build a feed for itself, and then the feed you consume is just the sum of several such feeds. | 14:56 |
| kanzure | i think the link i just dropped is fairly informative | 14:56 |
| kanzure | yeah | 14:56 |
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| jrayhawk | ugh, web-based rss sure is awful | 14:57 |
| jrayhawk | rss readers, that is | 14:57 |
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| kanzure | google reader? (i haven't tried it) | 14:57 |
| jblake | OK, so that's nice because we can do that sum dynamically and still have no side effects. That kind of aggregation wouldn't be hard to scale. Generating the feed for each repo - doing a per-commit feed is trivial, per-push isn't much harder. I don't think we're interested in a "fork button" at this point, are we Joe? | 14:57 |
| kanzure | bah fine, quit with a timeout | 14:58 |
| kanzure | i think a "fork" would be important for people who (1) have soemthing to contribute and (2) don't know how to do git clones on their own computer | 14:58 |
| kanzure | (joe might remember some talk about that sort of use scenario from the other day) | 14:58 |
| kanzure | gee i should write a spec.. thing. | 14:59 |
| jblake | Even after forking you'd still have to clone it to actually do work. | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | The 'fork' button is something I'm fine with and wouldn't be very hard to implement. | 14:59 |
| kanzure | "fake fork"- wouldn't complete until the user actually provides a new set of diffs or whatever :P | 14:59 |
| kanzure | (i'm half joking; i fork a lot of crap on github without updating it, so it's just sitting around) | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | That's hard for us and storage is cheap, so whatever. | 15:00 |
| kanzure | *shrug* | 15:00 |
| jrayhawk | Anyway, the fork button would be something like newrepo, turn off denynonfastforwards, clone origin, force push new, delete clone. | 15:00 |
| jblake | If we get desperate for storage we'll just start unifying the object stores. But that's not worth considering for another few million repos. | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | and turn back on denynonfastforwards | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | We already would need to sort out automated temporary clones in order to do the big dumb 'upload zip file' function. | 15:01 |
| kanzure | for hardware, these repos are probably going to be large :/ especialy since most users are going to be committing dumb stuff | 15:01 |
| jblake | If the repo doesn't have any commits you can push anything you want. We shouldn't need to mangle denynonfastforwards for that. | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, yeah, I guess that's true. | 15:02 |
| kanzure | hey so uh writing down this stuff is kinda important | 15:02 |
| kanzure | how do i turn this into a spec so i don't forget | 15:02 |
| jrayhawk | Our default action is to have a dumb commit just so Ikiwiki has something useful to clone. | 15:02 |
| kanzure | s/so i don't forget/so joe doesn't forget/ | 15:02 |
| jblake | You can generate commits against piny-web if you want, and just send-patch them to us. | 15:02 |
| kanzure | yes but if i was to do that what would i write | 15:03 |
| jrayhawk | Or you can create a user and we can add you to piny-code | 15:03 |
| jblake | Or you can just count on the fact that I think all three of us are archiving this conversation. | 15:03 |
| kanzure | archives are a bad way to store specs | 15:03 |
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| jrayhawk | Not that we've really specced anything. 'graft awful web rss reader system to piny user database' seems to be it. | 15:04 |
| kanzure | elevenarms: http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-10-29.log for stuff you missed | 15:05 |
| jblake | Actually generating the RSS feeds is more important. | 15:05 |
| jrayhawk | I'll go add 'fork button' and 'upload button' to user-facing infrastructure, though. | 15:05 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: also the "ability for site admin to update the front page and overall layout/themes" thing. | 15:05 |
| jblake | We need per-repo feeds for commits and pushes, and per-user feeds for pushes, which means we need per-user information stores and some code to catch pushes and manipulate said store. | 15:06 |
| jrayhawk | per-repo feeds are already done by Ikiwiki | 15:06 |
| jrayhawk | Or by cgit | 15:06 |
| kanzure | also the cgit/ikiwiki integration | 15:06 |
| jblake | Are those feeds commits or pushes or both? | 15:06 |
| kanzure | both | 15:06 |
| jrayhawk | Commits. | 15:06 |
| jrayhawk | Not pushes. | 15:06 |
| kanzure | ok fine | 15:06 |
| kanzure | but also stuff like "user x started watching project y" and "forked project y" | 15:07 |
| jblake | Because it sounds like kanzure is expecting pushes if he wants it to be like github. | 15:07 |
| jblake | ugh i have a fairly strong aversion to "started watching" | 15:07 |
| jblake | really not looking forward to solving the social networking problem | 15:07 |
| kanzure | it's a solved problem i thought :P | 15:08 |
| jrayhawk | No, there are a lot of complicated social issues, like privacy. | 15:08 |
| jrayhawk | The way to solve it is to fuck metametadata | 15:08 |
| jrayhawk | If someone wants to provide that elsewhere, they can go ahead. | 15:08 |
| kanzure | well, access controls on individual repos would be nice i guess | 15:10 |
| kanzure | i.e., a list of allowed users to view a repo, public/private repos | 15:11 |
| jblake | Got those for commits, but everything is always readable at the moment. | 15:11 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, that's already on the TODO list. | 15:11 |
| jrayhawk | That's why, for instance, as you asked earlier, cgit is under https:// | 15:12 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: adding me to piny-web, piny-code, piny-shared would be hawt. | 15:23 |
| jrayhawk | You'll have to createuser@piny.be if you want to edit them directly. | 15:24 |
| kanzure | what? | 15:24 |
| kanzure | i don't have ssh access on piny.be | 15:24 |
| jrayhawk | That's why you ssh createuser@piny.be | 15:25 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 15:25 |
| kanzure | zerosignal.nl? | 15:25 |
| kanzure | Last login: Fri Oct 15 03:46:06 2010 from zerosignal.nl | 15:25 |
| jrayhawk | ha ha whoops, that's a privacy mistake | 15:25 |
| kanzure | am i able to set up my own authorized_key or does piny still need you to do that | 15:26 |
| jrayhawk | readkeys, writekeys, appendkeys | 15:26 |
| kanzure | yay | 15:26 |
| jrayhawk | I do not recall whether I actually tested appendkeys. | 15:27 |
| kanzure | a list of allowed commands upon login to pinyshell would be cool in the future too | 15:28 |
| jrayhawk | oh yeah, help system. Good idea. | 15:28 |
| kanzure | "man addaccess" fails | 15:29 |
| jrayhawk | I just added you to those. | 15:30 |
| kanzure | ls /srv/git/<tab tab tab> works, but ls doesn't work | 15:30 |
| jrayhawk | Hmm. I should turn tab completion off. | 15:31 |
| jrayhawk | well, for arguments. | 15:31 |
| jrayhawk | Command completion is still useful. | 15:31 |
| jblake | There is a manpage for addaccess? | 15:31 |
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| jblake | I wonder why that didn't work for you. | 15:31 |
| kanzure | "man addaccess" works on gnusha for me | 15:31 |
| jrayhawk | He's on pinyshell, he can't man anything | 15:31 |
| kanzure | probably because 'man' doesn't work | 15:31 |
| jblake | Oh, feh. | 15:32 |
| jblake | We should probably add man to the safe commands. | 15:32 |
| kanzure | afraid i'll start readin' and lurnin'? | 15:32 |
| jrayhawk | Ehhh. We'd need to restrict pagers as well. | 15:32 |
| jblake | I think both less and more just use whatever your $SHELL is. | 15:32 |
| jrayhawk | less has 'log to file', though. | 15:33 |
| jblake | oh yeah, feh | 15:33 |
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| kanzure | what is the difference between piny-web, piny-shared and piny-code | 15:33 |
| jblake | I've been wondering that myself. | 15:33 |
| jrayhawk | Piny-web was supposed to be about the hosting itself, piny-code is the engine, and piny-shared is a repository full of static resources other repositories need. | 15:34 |
| kanzure | uh, what? | 15:34 |
| jblake | Anyway, man without a pager is still reasonably useful. | 15:34 |
| kanzure | sounds like piny-web should be web/ in piny-code.git | 15:34 |
| jrayhawk | I have not done much to piny-web, I need to refactor how piny-shared works. | 15:34 |
| jrayhawk | Well, piny-code is an orthogonal concept to piny-web. Anyone can deploy piny-code. | 15:35 |
| kanzure | then why does piny-code and piny-web both have architecture/* | 15:35 |
| jrayhawk | That was a throwback to when I was documenting piny-code in piny-web because I am a bad person. | 15:36 |
| kanzure | i still don't see how piny-web shouldn't be in piny-code | 15:36 |
| kanzure | piny-web would be the project website describing piny-code, right? | 15:36 |
| jrayhawk | 'piny' is an overloaded concept that I might need to split. | 15:37 |
| kanzure | piny.be is an instance of the piny codebase | 15:37 |
| jrayhawk | At the moment piny is both the hosting service at http://piny.be/ and the engine driving the hosting service, piny-code.git | 15:37 |
| kanzure | http://piny.be/ looks like it's piny-web.git | 15:37 |
| jrayhawk | That's correct. | 15:38 |
| kanzure | right.. so when you deploy piny-code.git it would make sense to me for it to be a copy of piny.be | 15:38 |
| kanzure | and then you just set it up however you want for whatever you're hosting | 15:38 |
| jblake | piny-code is easily amenable to being packaged as something a distro might ship. piny-web isn't. | 15:39 |
| kanzure | huh? wouldn't you just put into the .deb package-creation-script to ignore web/ in piny-code or something | 15:39 |
| jblake | So you could apt-get install piny-tools for example and get the interesting bits of our infrastructure without completely taking over your system. | 15:40 |
| jrayhawk | But piny-web is specific to my hosting service. That's the point. | 15:40 |
| jrayhawk | Not that it matters much at this point since I haven't put anything into it. | 15:40 |
| kanzure | it just seems a little weird for piny to not be hosting piny. | 15:41 |
| jrayhawk | Piny is two concepts. | 15:41 |
| jrayhawk | Perhaps I should rename the engine to lolgit | 15:42 |
| jrayhawk | Anyway, you're free to put whatever wherever and we can argue about it if I manage to care enough to complain at you. | 15:43 |
| kanzure | three repos just doesn't make sense to me :P | 15:43 |
| kanzure | anyway, how about piny-shared? | 15:44 |
| jrayhawk | if it makes you feel better we can redirect / to piny-code/ until I feel like developing piny.be-the-hosting-service more thoroughly. | 15:44 |
| jrayhawk | Piny-shared is a bunch of static files Ikiwiki and cgit currently need to operate. I may or may not continue using it depending on some other stuff I need to decide. | 15:45 |
| jrayhawk | If you were to want to make a pretty layout or something you could shove it in piny-code. | 15:46 |
| jrayhawk | pretty CSS layout | 15:46 |
| kanzure | maybe you could give me a tour of piny-code/ and why there's an etc/ and usr/ (i've looked at them and know what's in there, but not why) | 15:47 |
| kanzure | like why usr/src/ instead of just src/ | 15:47 |
| jblake | joe is bad at organizing repos | 15:48 |
| jblake | usr used to be even worse before i attacked it | 15:48 |
| kanzure | great. | 15:48 |
| jblake | (it was originally a partial filesystem snapshot, but has been gradually migrating into real packages) | 15:49 |
| kanzure | sigh | 15:49 |
| jrayhawk | Buildable packages are in /usr/src, anything that hasn't made its way into the buildable packages (because Jules it too lazy to work out how to use debconf to do everything we want, for the most part) lives outside of /usr/src | 15:50 |
| jblake | Some of the stuff in etc, for example, is config files which belong to packages I don't control, so it's sort of a pain to make policy-compliant packages for them. | 15:51 |
| kanzure | this is all awful | 15:51 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 15:51 |
| jrayhawk | you can git mv usr/src src if it makes you feel better | 15:51 |
| jblake | srv/templates probably needs to get packaged to live somewhere in /usr/share but I haven't really decided who should own it, yet. | 15:52 |
| jrayhawk | We should really relocate all the /srv stuff anyway. | 15:52 |
| kanzure | i'm not really sure how to reorganize this productively. i'd probably move libpiny and pinyadmin to the top-level | 15:52 |
| jblake | Basically everything else in that repo should probably get moved to a doc directory now that we supposedly will support those properly. | 15:52 |
| jblake | Yeah, toplevel with pinyadmin and libpiny and doc and maybe one or two other debian packages is sort of where I'd like to head in the long term. | 15:53 |
| jblake | It also probably needs some smarts to build webpages from the generated manpages in pinyadmin, which is going to be all kinds of ugly and I'm none too excited about. | 15:56 |
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| kanzure | jblake, jrayhawk: ok i pushed | 16:02 |
| kanzure | http://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ | 16:02 |
| kanzure | this file is awful | 16:03 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 16:03 |
| jblake | I agree. I hate that file. | 16:03 |
| jrayhawk | Still more graceful than actual html tables! | 16:03 |
| kanzure | these tables are stupid | 16:04 |
| jrayhawk | But yes, basically dumb. | 16:04 |
| jblake | It's ugly and a constant reminder of my failures of motivation. | 16:04 |
| kanzure | uhuh | 16:04 |
| kanzure | what's with having to have .mdwn to all of these files | 16:04 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with plaintext | 16:04 |
| jrayhawk | Markdown is more flexible once you get used to it. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | i'm also not happy about issues/ | 16:05 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: what distributed bug system does fossil-scm use? | 16:05 |
| jrayhawk | fossil | 16:05 |
| jrayhawk | fossil is entirely self-contained for ease of deployability. | 16:06 |
| jblake | hence we can't easily use it | 16:07 |
| kanzure | too bad bugseverywhere doesn't believe in releases | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk | I can whip issues into better shape for you if you'd like. | 16:07 |
| kanzure | i should submit that as a bug to them | 16:07 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i don't trust you with repos any more | 16:07 |
| kanzure | at least, structuring them well | 16:08 |
| jrayhawk | Well, you don't really know what Ikiwiki's bug tracking looks like at this point, so someone should probably give you an example. | 16:08 |
| kanzure | hmm | 16:08 |
| kanzure | okay fine | 16:08 |
| jblake | Can you get away with showing his Cas's tracker? | 16:08 |
| jblake | Eh, I guess ikiwiki's may be a better example, anyway. | 16:09 |
| jrayhawk | No, cas's is definitely more sophisticated than ikiwiki.git's | 16:09 |
| jrayhawk | Does PSAS do something trackery? | 16:09 |
| jblake | I doubt it. Andrew would know better than I. | 16:09 |
| jrayhawk | eh, I may as well just do it here. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | i wish the "clear" command was hooked up to a shocker so that every time i needlessly clear my terminal i get shocked | 16:11 |
| jblake | control-L is faster, by the way | 16:11 |
| kanzure | you're not helping | 16:12 |
| jblake | sure i am; this way it doesn't clutter your .bash_history! | 16:12 |
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| jblake | also contributes less to carpal tunnel | 16:12 |
| kanzure | what is ikiwiki's built-in bug tracker and why should you use it over BE? | 16:13 |
| kanzure | and why aren't the todo/features/wishlists/issues in a bug tracker | 16:13 |
| jrayhawk | I'M WORKING ON IT JEEZ OKAY GOD YOU ARE SUCH A SLAVEDRIVER | 16:13 |
| jblake | i think while joe is being productive i'm going to go play a game involving zombie cowboys | 16:14 |
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| kanzure | hi wolfspraul | 16:31 |
| kanzure | wolfspraul: i was wondering, how did you finance ben nanonote? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | "how to build your own UAV for $300" http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/diy/robots-podcast-diy-drones | 16:33 |
| kanzure | this article doesn't have anything new in it, but the title is relevant IMHO http://blog.databazaar.com/2010/10/will-the-open-source-hardware-movement-bring-you-a-free-printer.html | 16:33 |
| kanzure | (namely, there has never been a free printer, ever) | 16:33 |
| Utopiah | echo "There is not free meal." | sed -e "s/meal/printer/" | 16:35 |
| kanzure | no, i mean the gutenberg printer was supposed to be this era of free press and other BS, but it was actually always a proprietary, licensed machine | 16:36 |
| Utopiah | political tool | 16:37 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: what's your workflow for piny development? do you write code, make the deb package, uninstall previous .deb, install latest, then test? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | or are you just making changes on your filesystem with symlinks | 16:40 |
| jrayhawk | write code, make deb package, install deb package on dev.piny.be, test on dev.piny.be | 16:41 |
| jrayhawk | If you createuser@dev.piny.be I can switch your shell over to something less restrictive so you can mess around. | 16:41 |
| kanzure | ssh wants a password for createuser | 16:42 |
| jrayhawk | Any new commands need to be symlinked into /srv/rbin and enabled in sudoers.d. | 16:42 |
| jrayhawk | oh, that's interesting. | 16:42 |
| jrayhawk | I guess I disabled that for dev. | 16:42 |
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| kanzure | oh man, bugseverywhere is in worse of a state than i thought | 16:53 |
| kanzure | git clone git://gitorious.org/be/be | 16:53 |
| kanzure | try: "be list" on itself | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | http://piny.be/piny-code/ and http://piny.be/piny-code/issues/ should be a little more interesting, now. | 16:54 |
| kanzure | blerg but i don't wanna merge | 17:00 |
| jrayhawk | You have some unmerged issues? | 17:01 |
| jrayhawk | if so, you can apt-get install moreutils and for i in list of files; cat ../templates/issues.mdwn $i | sponge $i; done | 17:02 |
| QuantumG | sounds like you need to see a psychologist. | 17:02 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: no, unmerged unrelated other changes. it's ok, i'll live :) | 17:02 |
| kanzure | what is tag/ | 17:03 |
| jrayhawk | Pages that are autocreated whenever someone uses a [[!taglink]] directive. | 17:03 |
| jrayhawk | So, for instance, I can point rss2email at http://piny.be/piny-code/tag/jrayhawk/index.rss to follow my bugs. | 17:04 |
| kanzure | what is the difference between srv/templates/ and templates/ | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | /srv/templates/ is part of what needs to be installed on piny. It'll get moved somewhere more explicable once we refactor the install paths. | 17:05 |
| kanzure | i grepped through everything and nowhere is srv/templates/ mentioned | 17:06 |
| kanzure | so it seems to be unreferenced | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | ./usr/src/libpiny/share/ikiwiki.setup:templatedir => "/srv/templates", # TODO: user-customizable templates | 17:07 |
| kanzure | yes but that's a reference to the installed path, not the path in the git repository | 17:08 |
| kanzure | but, grep -r has failed me anyway | 17:08 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, that's one of the things that needs manual management outside of dpkg. Everything else is documented in http://piny.be/piny-code/issues/debian_packaging_concerns/ | 17:09 |
| kanzure | so is there an ikiwiki interface to the issues now, or what? | 17:09 |
| kanzure | presumably you were showing me something | 17:09 |
| kanzure | i guess there's stuff like https://secure.piny.be/repos/piny-code/ikiwiki.cgi?page=issues%2Fwmd&do=edit | 17:14 |
| kanzure | but it seems to be just "edit a section of this document" thingy? | 17:14 |
| ybit2 | bleep blop | 17:15 |
| kanzure | hi ybit2 | 17:15 |
| kanzure | did you pick up that vertical cnc machine center? | 17:15 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: pruned the tree a bit https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-code.git/tree/ | 17:32 |
| jrayhawk | So I see. | 17:32 |
| kanzure | i suppose tag/ could be moved | 17:32 |
| kanzure | but it seems useful to ikiwiki in general | 17:32 |
| kanzure | (same with template/) | 17:33 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, we should probably move Ikiwiki over to doc/ anyway. | 17:33 |
| kanzure | me or you | 17:33 |
| jrayhawk | Well, I suppose Jules should implement that as a pinyconfig thing first. | 17:33 |
| kanzure | the best answer of all. | 17:33 |
| kanzure | so where is ikiwiki getting favicon.ico (and others) from? http://piny.be/piny-code/ | 17:35 |
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| jrayhawk | It isn't. You could define one in /srv/templates/page.tmpl if you wanted, though just adding http://ikiwiki.info/plugins/favicon/ is a better idea, I guess. | 17:39 |
| kanzure | http://piny.be/piny-code/favicon.ico seems to exist to me. | 17:41 |
| jrayhawk | oh, that's an underlay item. Hmm. I did a reckless ikiwiki upgrade I need to clean some stuff up for. | 17:42 |
| jrayhawk | One of Ikiwiki's more irritating features is this concept of an 'underlay' that Joey just assumes people will want in every Ikiwiki. | 17:43 |
| jrayhawk | One of the hopes was that I could use piny-shared as a way of avoiding that, but there's a lot of manual overhead and I need to decide what to do with it. | 17:43 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: testing piny-tools, libpiny and pinyadmin seems kind of painful | 17:56 |
| kanzure | isn't this what metasploit (et al.) was created for? | 17:56 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, we should really have regression testing. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | i guess metasploit is too extreme for this | 17:56 |
| kanzure | i meant: "a simple vm image to boot up for a developer to test a new installation on" | 17:57 |
| kanzure | although, it's fairly annoying to have to rebuild the .deb | 17:57 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 17:57 |
| jrayhawk | It'd be easiest to grab the entirity of dev, I guess. Let me go see what's going on with createuser. | 17:59 |
| kanzure | even with dev.piny.be the development workflow still sucks | 17:59 |
| jrayhawk | We are developing debian packages. | 18:01 |
| jrayhawk | Actually ensuring those packages are usable is not an optional part of the workflow. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | but just for testing even simple changes? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | i.e. the set of simple changes that can't be tested in isolation of the other piny infrastructure | 18:05 |
| jrayhawk | Perhaps you are irrationally terrified of building and installing packages? | 18:06 |
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| kanzure | quite possibly | 18:06 |
| jrayhawk | the commands you'd want would be 'dpkg-buildpackage -tc' and 'debi' | 18:07 |
| jrayhawk | err, sudo debi | 18:07 |
| jrayhawk | well, prepended by 'cd piny-code/libpiny' | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | or piny-code/pinyadmin | 18:09 |
| kanzure | so what if multiple people are testing wacky shit out on dev.piny.be at the same time? | 18:12 |
| jrayhawk | At that point, 17:59 < jrayhawk> It'd be easiest to grab the entirity of dev, I guess. | 18:13 |
| jrayhawk | Hmm. I guess an openssh-server upgrade broke PAM. Lame. Anyway, createuser is working on dev.piny.be if you want to make an account I can enable the shell on. | 18:14 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: ok done | 18:15 |
| jrayhawk | Should be better, now. | 18:15 |
| jrayhawk | ugh. using git mv instead of Ikiwiki's move means all the paths in the markdown and directives are broken. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | didn't i fix that? | 18:16 |
| kanzure | (manually) | 18:16 |
| jrayhawk | http://piny.be/piny-code/docs/architecture/ | 18:16 |
| kanzure | oh, i didn't see any in there (i tried grep "\[\[" for links) | 18:16 |
| jrayhawk | https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-code.git/tree/docs/architecture.mdwn | 18:17 |
| kanzure | what's the propagate-your-authorized-keys ssh command thingy? | 18:17 |
| jrayhawk | writekeys, though you should have a real shell now, so 'mkdir .ssh; cat > .ssh/authorized_keys' should work similarly well. | 18:18 |
| * kanzure defaults to writekeys | 18:18 | |
| kanzure | well, yes, but there's actually an ssh script provided by openssh | 18:18 |
| kanzure | the name escapes me | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | oh | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | ssh-copy-id i guess | 18:19 |
| kanzure | aha | 18:19 |
| jrayhawk | huh, i never knew about that. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | /home looks awful with ikiwiki everywhere :P | 18:20 |
| jrayhawk | oh, I just added you to sudo; you'll need to relogin for that to work | 18:22 |
| jrayhawk | You should avoid running Ikiwiki directly under any circumstances because it is incredibly easy to screw up with it and break things in subtle ways. 'rebuildrepo' is the command you want. | 18:24 |
| jrayhawk | Other than that I think you're good to break stuff as you like. | 18:24 |
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| kanzure | fenn: are you still interested in going after vehicleforge, in spite of what we heard during the webinar? | 20:10 |
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| fenn | what in particular was heard in the webinar? besides the whole soul-sucking aspect, which we knew from the start | 20:51 |
| kanzure | that it's just a repository for whatever language-format the other DARPA performers (who responded to META) come up with | 20:53 |
| kanzure | not actually CAD or stuff like that. | 20:53 |
| kanzure | i don't see this as an opportunity to do what we want to do in a reasonable way | 20:55 |
| kanzure | "reasonable" is the operative word there | 20:56 |
| kanzure | so i'm much less inclined to want to be at the helm of a VF project | 20:56 |
| kanzure | still, todd's contact is still moving forward and has redhat involved and a few others, it's going to end up being a large group of people | 20:57 |
| kanzure | so being involved in that way is still possible, if that's of any interest | 20:57 |
| * fenn sleeps on it | 21:01 | |
| kanzure | did you createuser yourself on piny.be? | 21:02 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: if on a homepage hosted by piny (for the entire server) the user logs in and gets an aggregated feed of what's up, how is that not 'dynamic'? | 21:07 |
| kanzure | (i think this 'dynamic' term needs better definition) | 21:08 |
| jrayhawk | We haven't decided how to do that part yet. | 21:09 |
| kanzure | is piny-web, in your case, that "front page" ? | 21:09 |
| jrayhawk | The dynamicity is fairly trivial implementation detail once we have all the data set up that we need. | 21:09 |
| kanzure | yes but i thought you were bloodlustingly avoiding dynamic pages | 21:10 |
| kanzure | bloodlustfully | 21:10 |
| jrayhawk | With the user case it might be inevitable. Depend on how a number of other things work out. | 21:10 |
| jrayhawk | s/Depend/Depends | 21:11 |
| kanzure | okay. | 21:12 |
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| kanzure | http://github.com/mojombo/egitd | 21:30 |
| kanzure | apparently they don't use that anymore | 21:30 |
| fenn | "Is Robin Hanson a humanoid computer sent from the future to convince humans to agree to upload our future brains onto computers? Do the future computers need to devour our minds because they have learned all the knowable facts in the universe but been unable to logically deduce love? Or are they hoping to gain strategic insight from our brains for the future man vs computer war? Is Bryan Caplan our John Conner?" | 21:37 |
| kanzure | that's not funny, robin is genuinely looney | 21:38 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: how would i go about moving ikiwiki into docs/ (or some customizable folder)? | 21:40 |
| kanzure | i'm guessing piny_ikiwikidestdir or piny_ikiwikisrcdir in piny-code/libpiny/lib/Piny/Config.pm | 21:41 |
| kanzure | but it might be something more involved | 21:41 |
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| kanzure | wait, that's definitely wrong | 21:41 |
| kanzure | i should just break piny-code.git and have jules fix it by solving it | 21:42 |
| kanzure | i also think wikipath should be a per-repo configurable. | 21:44 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, that's on the TODO list. | 21:45 |
| kanzure | really i just don't want to see tags/ templates/ and *.mdwm all the time in a development repo :P | 21:47 |
| kanzure | s/tags/tag | 21:47 |
| kanzure | oh well. maybe i'll figure out something else to do | 21:48 |
| jrayhawk | You can get it minimally working by arranging for srcdir to be changed in the generated setup file. | 21:48 |
| jrayhawk | There should probably also be a means of cleaning up the destdir and the leftover .ikiwiki directory, but that's less essential. | 21:49 |
| kanzure | eh i feel there's a few things missing from http://piny.be/piny-code/docs/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ | 21:50 |
| kanzure | based on what we've been talking about | 21:50 |
| kanzure | you mentioned ikiwiki/cgit integration? or was that me | 21:52 |
| jrayhawk | I might have, but I don't remember the context. | 21:52 |
| kanzure | for some reason "Page History" in ikiwiki links over to cgit | 21:53 |
| kanzure | on a related note, cgit doesn't seem to do --follow for history.. i.e.: https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-code.git/log/docs/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure.mdwn | 21:53 |
| kanzure | i would imagine that http://piny.be/piny-code/libpiny/ should still be under the ikiwiki interface too.. | 21:54 |
| jrayhawk | Jules gets upset when autoindex adds markdown files. | 21:56 |
| jrayhawk | You can duke that out with him. | 21:56 |
| kanzure | adds markdown files? | 21:56 |
| kanzure | i don't want to add markdown files | 21:57 |
| kanzure | i guess i can edit apache's default index page for that sort of subdirectory | 21:58 |
| kanzure | this is stupid. | 21:59 |
| kanzure | ah, .htaccess is slightly less of a stupid solution | 22:08 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: what happens if i commit .htaccess at the moment? and should it be overwritten server-side/disallowed? | 22:10 |
| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 22:24 |
| JayDugger | There also exists a board game of developing space named Rocket Flight. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5525/rocket-flight | 22:30 |
| JayDugger | Followed by a better successor, High Trader, which seems stuck in permanent private playtest at Ad Astra Games. | 22:31 |
| JayDugger | Rocket Flight has Santa Claus Machines near the top of its tech tree. | 22:32 |
| jrayhawk | There are no AllowOverrides | 22:37 |
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| JayDugger | kanzure, have you met Robin Hanson in person? | 23:09 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Oct 30 00:00:07 2010 | ||
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