| --- Log opened Sun Dec 19 00:00:08 2010 | ||
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| kanzure | morning | 06:23 |
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| JayDugger | Good monring. | 06:45 |
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| delinquentme | whoop! | 08:19 |
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| augur | kanzure: when can we eliminate sleep | 08:52 |
| uniqanomaly | augur: you can start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic | 09:06 |
| augur | :P | 09:06 |
| augur | im just getting increasingly irritated by the lack of commercially available H+ technology | 09:07 |
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| uniqanomaly | and there won't be any | 09:07 |
| augur | :( | 09:07 |
| uniqanomaly | with 10 years for FDA drugs approval | 09:07 |
| augur | ok well, non-commercially available hackware too | 09:08 |
| augur | or at least commercially available in japan | 09:08 |
| uniqanomaly | http://www.sens.org/ | 09:09 |
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| uniqanomaly | this gives some hope | 09:09 |
| augur | yeah, but not the kind of hope i want right now | 09:10 |
| augur | i just want to not have to sleep and to be able to interface directly with my computer. is that so hard to ask? :( | 09:10 |
| JayDugger | Yesl | 09:10 |
| JayDugger | Harder even than accurate spellihg. | 09:10 |
| augur | i would even accept a much improved UI of some sort, provided it make interaction significantly more efficient | 09:11 |
| uniqanomaly | augur: if you tell me that you using time you already have optimally i just won't belive you | 09:11 |
| augur | optimally for my goals :p | 09:12 |
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| augur | its more that im a linguistics grad student and a coder and there are many many tasks that i feel would just be so much improved with a better UI | 09:12 |
| augur | not that i couldnt write something that would capture the whole screen and provide a new UI, right, but theres also something to having different physical inputs too | 09:13 |
| augur | and alas i cant manufacture hardware yet | 09:13 |
| augur | reprap isnt at the point of printing wires and circuits | 09:13 |
| uniqanomaly | what would you manufacture if you could anyway | 09:14 |
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| uniqanomaly | EEG suck, thats for sure | 09:14 |
| augur | probably just some experimental chording keyboards for mode keys, or some sort of drafting-table like multitouch screen (not that i cant do that without a printer, but) | 09:15 |
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| uniqanomaly | well, having artificial intelligence would make interaction 'significantly more efficient' | 09:17 |
| uniqanomaly | no need for hacking shitty bodies to interact with machines | 09:18 |
| uniqanomaly | well, machines to interact with shitty bodies | 09:18 |
| klafka | if i had a reprap that could manufacture wires and circuits i'd build badass edm party decorations | 09:19 |
| klafka | it wouldn't really change how i do research | 09:19 |
| klafka | at least in the short term | 09:20 |
| kanzure | reprap for alternative keyboards and computer interfaces has been a surprisingly untapped field so far | 09:20 |
| kanzure | i'm a little surprised that nobody is printing up weird looking keyboards, there's obviously tons of configurations to try out | 09:20 |
| augur | kanzure: see? | 09:20 |
| augur | the problem is wires and circuits | 09:20 |
| kanzure | keyboards are mostly plastic | 09:20 |
| augur | yeah but you NEED wires and circuits! | 09:21 |
| augur | i suppose you could build those yourself tho | 09:21 |
| kanzure | electronics for keyboards is already well commoditized, so you can buy the parts for $5 to $10 +shipping | 09:21 |
| JayDugger | Actually...you can buy laser projected keyboards. | 09:21 |
| augur | but this is sort of what i mean, you know? i feel like theres actually not much of a trend to build h+ technology | 09:21 |
| klafka | what is h+ technology? | 09:21 |
| kanzure | augur: part of the problem is that the h+ people have been drowning in bullshit for a while now | 09:21 |
| JayDugger | Any alternative has to beat the incumbent. | 09:21 |
| kanzure | augur: the whole concept of "build stuff" is new to them | 09:22 |
| kanzure | plus, the people who do build stuff, were annoyed by the original amounts of bullshit ;) | 09:22 |
| JayDugger | Speculation is intoxicating and unproductive. | 09:22 |
| kanzure | augur: that doesn't mean there isn't demand though | 09:22 |
| augur | klafka: surely any technology explicitly designed with the goal of upgrading humans. now ofcourse its limited to trivial shit like optimization of how we interact with the environment through pre-existing modes, but its not just about what it does but what the motivation is behind it | 09:22 |
| kanzure | many people max out on qwerty and dvorak isn't that fascinating to them, for instance | 09:22 |
| augur | kanzure: oh im sure theres a demand, we just need to make it happen | 09:22 |
| JayDugger | max out on qwerty and dvorak? | 09:23 |
| klafka | kanzure my understanding was that dvorak isn't necessarily better than qwerty it was based on old failed trials | 09:23 |
| augur | this is true, klafka | 09:23 |
| kanzure | klafka: really? i hear some people claiming 250+ wpm on dvorak | 09:23 |
| kanzure | i max out at 120 wpm on qwerty | 09:23 |
| klafka | idk | 09:23 |
| klafka | i just heard that the claims of dvorak's research were somewhat spurious | 09:24 |
| JayDugger | I think those trial depend on whether you actually touch-type, or just hunt-and-peck with speed. | 09:24 |
| kanzure | i also seem to max out at about 12 characters per second on qwerty | 09:24 |
| kanzure | i don't know what the upper limit on quick-twitch finger interaction is | 09:24 |
| kanzure | *intentional quick-twitch finger interaction | 09:25 |
| augur | can i just comment also that im reading A Fire in the Deep and these.. pack minds, they're rather disturbing. and Andromeda's fractured consciousness is even worse | 09:25 |
| augur | i want the multiplicity of attention, but not the mutliplicity of identity :| | 09:26 |
| JayDugger | HUMOR--http://landoflisp.com/ | 09:26 |
| JayDugger | Scroll way down for the comic. | 09:26 |
| klafka | hmm | 09:26 |
| klafka | not familiar w/ that book | 09:27 |
| augur | lol | 09:27 |
| klafka | although there are some cool peter watts books that talk about the idea of pack minds | 09:27 |
| augur | shame im already intimately familiar with lisp | 09:27 |
| augur | well, one particular dialect of it | 09:27 |
| klafka | man somehow i don't see how lisp makes your code bug free, are they just hawking functional programming / side effect free programming? | 09:31 |
| JayDugger | I've not read the text. | 09:32 |
| augur | it doesnt make your code bug free | 09:32 |
| augur | but haskell almost does x3 | 09:32 |
| kanzure | augur: can i abuse yuo in the future for figuring out AutoLisp stuff | 09:35 |
| kanzure | i will eventually need to incorporate that stuff (or similar APIs) into lolcad | 09:35 |
| kanzure | *you | 09:35 |
| augur | i odnt know autolisp | 09:35 |
| kanzure | isn't it just lisp but with various libraries | 09:37 |
| kanzure | (i'm implying that i don't know lisp) | 09:37 |
| augur | i dont know | 09:37 |
| augur | also, the dialect of lisp im familiar with is scheme | 09:37 |
| augur | which has significant differences from common lisp | 09:37 |
| augur | afk | 09:38 |
| kanzure | used ct scanners and MRI machines http://www.zettamed.com/equipment.shtml | 10:00 |
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| augur | lol | 10:11 |
| augur | dangerous | 10:11 |
| klafka | thats what i was thinking | 10:18 |
| augur | i mean in the hands of non-medical professionals, ofcourse | 10:21 |
| augur | big magnets = scary | 10:21 |
| klafka | CT scanners can be scary regardless apparently | 10:22 |
| uniqanomaly | wtf are you talking about | 10:25 |
| uniqanomaly | recreational drugs in hands of organized crime are scary | 10:25 |
| uniqanomaly | handed over to them by governments | 10:25 |
| uniqanomaly | this is fucking scary | 10:25 |
| uniqanomaly | also monopoly for other drugs in hands of physicians | 10:28 |
| uniqanomaly | like retards don't believing you actually can improve memory in normal individual by nootropics | 10:29 |
| klafka | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_computed_tomography#Typical_scan_doses | 10:30 |
| klafka | CT scans just have high radiation doses | 10:30 |
| augur | uniqanomaly: that too | 10:32 |
| kanzure | "diybio: never clone alone" | 10:42 |
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| kanzure | "free radicals may not be the cause of aging" http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/12/19/167212 | 12:19 |
| uniqanomaly | o srsly | 12:29 |
| kanzure | slow science manifesto http://slow-science.org/ | 12:44 |
| kanzure | also a pdf http://slow-science.org/slow-science-manifesto.pdf | 12:44 |
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| * epitron likes slow science | 13:25 | |
| epitron | i like the idea of humanity not racing each other to take a flying leap off a cliff | 13:25 |
| epitron | that's interesting that oxidants aren't the cause of aging... | 13:26 |
| epitron | mitochondria are pretty likely involved though | 13:27 |
| epitron | did you ever see that talk by the guy who selectively bred fruit flies over 20 years to increase their lifespans? | 13:27 |
| epitron | and tracked all the DNA mutations along the way? | 13:27 |
| epitron | apparently the most important lifespan-extending mutations were in the mitochondria | 13:29 |
| archels | "free radicals may not be the cause of aging" should probably be taken with a grain of salt | 13:46 |
| epitron | good point :) | 13:49 |
| archels | "slow science" is hopelessly naive | 13:49 |
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| archels | There's always competition between who publishes first. | 13:49 |
| epitron | idealism is not naivety | 13:49 |
| epitron | if we don't strive to be better, we're just going to rot. | 13:50 |
| Tyrant91101 | its not striving to be better though | 13:51 |
| Tyrant91101 | its striving to be slower | 13:51 |
| epitron | don't make me explain slow science :) | 13:51 |
| Tyrant91101 | and while thats great for developments of massive fundamental theories | 13:51 |
| Tyrant91101 | the only way to move science forward at this point is to speed up the process and involve far more people than those in the 'ivory tower' of science | 13:51 |
| epitron | did you read slow-science.org? | 13:53 |
| Tyrant91101 | yep | 13:54 |
| epitron | the 2nd sentence says that they like the accelerated science | 13:54 |
| Tyrant91101 | i dont see the difference between what they call 'accelerated science' and what they are calling for | 13:55 |
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| Tyrant91101 | the only meaningful sentence in that manifesto is "Society should give scientists the time they need, but more importantly, scientists must take their time." | 13:56 |
| Tyrant91101 | and the problem with giving scientists the time they need is that almost all science done now is profit driven | 13:57 |
| Tyrant91101 | even in universities | 13:57 |
| Tyrant91101 | i could argue, ESPECIALLY, in the universities | 13:57 |
| epitron | corporatization has crept into everything | 13:58 |
| epitron | it's corrupting society | 13:58 |
| Tyrant91101 | it's not corrupting anything, it's society that is doing the corrupting | 13:58 |
| epitron | that's another issue :) | 13:58 |
| epitron | what? | 13:58 |
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| epitron | i think the metalevels of our labels and definitions are getting confused here. | 13:59 |
| Tyrant91101 | these corporations that are "corrupting" science and government are only the response to societies that are, for lack of a better word, becoming extremely consumerist | 13:59 |
| epitron | sure, that's what i was saying | 14:00 |
| Tyrant91101 | during the height of the cold war, american and even soviet society was dedicated tos cientific innovation in an attempt to beat out the other | 14:00 |
| Tyrant91101 | as a result, many corporations like Bell spent billions in pure research | 14:01 |
| Tyrant91101 | on their own accord | 14:01 |
| epitron | so let's call this the goal of society | 14:01 |
| epitron | right now the goal is to consume all the resources on the planet | 14:01 |
| epitron | well, there's that one... | 14:01 |
| epitron | which is baked into the system... | 14:01 |
| epitron | and then there's the competing goal of trying to save the planet | 14:01 |
| Tyrant91101 | but now all society cares about is ipads and iphones | 14:01 |
| Tyrant91101 | theres no incentive, culturally or economically, to do pure research | 14:02 |
| epitron | i'm having trouble getting a bead on you :) | 14:02 |
| Tyrant91101 | and instead it is left up to universities, where the most intelligent people are turned into managers and beauracrats | 14:02 |
| epitron | you're moving around too fast | 14:02 |
| epitron | maybe you could just give me your general ideology | 14:02 |
| epitron | then we could go from there | 14:02 |
| Tyrant91101 | i have no ideology. | 14:03 |
| Tyrant91101 | ideology is for the masses so they can try to wrap their heads around an extremely complex issue | 14:03 |
| Tyrant91101 | i try to be a 'pragmatist' | 14:03 |
| epitron | okay | 14:04 |
| Tyrant91101 | i think that everything from science to politics should be about setting goals and achieving those goals with something closer to the scientific method | 14:04 |
| epitron | ah, okay | 14:04 |
| epitron | so you're a rationalist | 14:04 |
| uniqanomaly | Tyrant91101 i guess you'd like move to china | 14:04 |
| epitron | haha | 14:05 |
| Tyrant91101 | no | 14:05 |
| epitron | get with the winning team! | 14:05 |
| epitron | america's circling the drain | 14:05 |
| Tyrant91101 | while i guess i am to some degree a rationalist, i think there are still some basic ideologies people must subscribe to | 14:05 |
| uniqanomaly | srsly | 14:05 |
| uniqanomaly | china is like nicely managed company | 14:05 |
| Tyrant91101 | i for one value intellectual and other freedoms | 14:05 |
| epitron | uniqanomaly: where the managers filter your internet and execute you if you complain | 14:06 |
| uniqanomaly | yeah, freedom of religion for the win | 14:06 |
| uniqanomaly | and you get US society where >40% don't believe in evolution | 14:06 |
| uniqanomaly | what a shame | 14:06 |
| epitron | well, they are products of the educational system | 14:06 |
| epitron | you can't blame 'em | 14:07 |
| Tyrant91101 | you can blame their parents | 14:07 |
| epitron | they were also products of the educational system! | 14:07 |
| uniqanomaly | oh yeah of course it's not their fault they're idiots | 14:07 |
| Tyrant91101 | the education system is a product of them as well | 14:07 |
| epitron | mmm... not really... | 14:08 |
| epitron | the "factory educational system" was setup to create useful cogs | 14:08 |
| epitron | and limit the education, so that workers didn't get demotivated | 14:08 |
| Tyrant91101 | haha you think the workers are blameless for that? | 14:08 |
| epitron | the more educated workers get, the less they want to be your slaves | 14:09 |
| Tyrant91101 | any and every societal construct in the history of man is held up only by man | 14:09 |
| Tyrant91101 | any nonsense that a person is willing to tolerate is nonsense that they are willing to uphold | 14:09 |
| epitron | hmmm | 14:09 |
| epitron | personal responsibility depends on being aware of the thing you're responsible for | 14:09 |
| epitron | i mean, you're right to some extent | 14:10 |
| Tyrant91101 | With the internet where it is today, it is a crime not to be aware | 14:10 |
| Tyrant91101 | half a century ago, you could be forgiven for not knowing how congress is infringing on your rights | 14:11 |
| epitron | the internet is so full of information... | 14:11 |
| epitron | you can get stuck in a myriad of backalleys | 14:11 |
| Tyrant91101 | today, with news.google.com and other aggregators you have no excuse | 14:11 |
| Tyrant91101 | ofcourse | 14:11 |
| epitron | there's tons of garbage on it | 14:11 |
| Tyrant91101 | noise is always a problem | 14:11 |
| uniqanomaly | 'it is a crime not to be aware' | 14:11 |
| uniqanomaly | except wikileaks.org taken down by us gov | 14:11 |
| uniqanomaly | of course not officially | 14:11 |
| Tyrant91101 | uniqanomaly, it gets a lot worse than that | 14:11 |
| epitron | of course not :) | 14:11 |
| Tyrant91101 | when i say something about transhumanism i get people complaining about 1984 and Brave New World | 14:12 |
| epitron | does news.google.com really give you useful information? :) | 14:12 |
| uniqanomaly | epitron: yeah right | 14:12 |
| Tyrant91101 | yet they ignore they fact that that's already whats happening around the world in cities like New York and London | 14:12 |
| uniqanomaly | usefull as in fox news | 14:12 |
| uniqanomaly | useful* | 14:12 |
| epitron | i find the news outlets tend have a lot of interesting but ultimately not useful things | 14:12 |
| Tyrant91101 | epitron, news.google.com can serve its purposes | 14:12 |
| Tyrant91101 | for stuff like what's hapenning in congress its a good enough aggregator for the big things | 14:13 |
| epitron | have you ever read "Complexity and Information Overload in Society"? | 14:13 |
| epitron | it's a two-part paper by Heyligen | 14:13 |
| epitron | http://web.archive.org/web/20070103091059/http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/Info-overload.pdf | 14:13 |
| epitron | (that's both parts) | 14:13 |
| Tyrant91101 | thank you for the link | 14:14 |
| epitron | the signal to noise ratio and the speed at which things spread is making it hard to make smart decisions | 14:14 |
| epitron | things are meming around before anyone can verify them | 14:14 |
| epitron | once the meme has saturated the network, if the verification comes back false.... how do you fix it? :) | 14:15 |
| epitron | sensationalism and corporatism are pretty corrupting | 14:15 |
| Tyrant91101 | thats the fault of society | 14:16 |
| Tyrant91101 | when the acidity of a lake rises dramatically you cant blame the bacteria for evolving to live in that new environment | 14:16 |
| epitron | the social protocol and ideologies? | 14:16 |
| Tyrant91101 | what a crappy analogy but i think you understand my point | 14:17 |
| epitron | "society" is kinda vague | 14:17 |
| epitron | hah.. i don't get the lake thing actually... the did the bacteria cause the lake acidity to rise, or did they just adapt to it and they're the only things left? | 14:18 |
| Tyrant91101 | they adapt | 14:18 |
| Tyrant91101 | thats the only way they can survive | 14:18 |
| epitron | okay.. | 14:18 |
| epitron | and that maps to society? | 14:18 |
| Tyrant91101 | only the corporations that adapt to the consumerism in society are the ones that survive | 14:18 |
| epitron | ah | 14:18 |
| epitron | well, they survive in the short term... | 14:19 |
| Tyrant91101 | and yes society is very broad | 14:19 |
| epitron | but the system is pretty close to the point of failure | 14:19 |
| Tyrant91101 | so is life | 14:19 |
| epitron | as david suzuki puts it, we're in a car headed at 90mph at a brick wall, and the people in the car are arguing about who gets to sit in the front seat | 14:19 |
| Tyrant91101 | the evolution of technology always requires us to be headed at a brick wall | 14:20 |
| Tyrant91101 | its just that as technology evolves, we push the brick wall further back | 14:20 |
| epitron | until... | 14:20 |
| epitron | "Heyligen[2] , Alvin Toffler, and others have written about how ephemeralization, though it may increase our power to solve physical problems, can make non-physical problems much worse. Increasing system complexity and information overload make it difficult and stressful for the people who must control the ephemeralized systems. This can negate the advantages of ephemeralization." | 14:20 |
| Tyrant91101 | one day, perhaps soon, we will hit such a brick wall before we can push it back via more technological development | 14:20 |
| epitron | our brains have not grown | 14:21 |
| epitron | there's only so much complexity we can handle | 14:21 |
| Tyrant91101 | i think that way of looking at it is very naive and over simplistic | 14:21 |
| epitron | it's true though :) | 14:21 |
| Tyrant91101 | as the amount of information grows so do our systems | 14:21 |
| Tyrant91101 | maybe one day the rate of information growth will exceed system growth | 14:22 |
| epitron | what systems? | 14:22 |
| Tyrant91101 | but all you can do is postulate that, not prove it afaik | 14:22 |
| Tyrant91101 | once again system is a broad word :0 | 14:22 |
| Tyrant91101 | :) | 14:22 |
| epitron | i know | 14:22 |
| epitron | i'm still having trouble getting a bead on you | 14:22 |
| epitron | :) | 14:22 |
| Tyrant91101 | when you have a village with a few dozen people, you may only needo ne leader to process all that information and act on it | 14:22 |
| Tyrant91101 | but when you have hundreds of millions of people, the system of leadership that was once the village elder becomes a massive beauracracy | 14:23 |
| epitron | and we all know how well bureaucracies can manage information | 14:23 |
| Tyrant91101 | that CAN process all that information | 14:23 |
| Tyrant91101 | well it appears to work better than anarchy | 14:23 |
| epitron | you lose sight of the big picture | 14:24 |
| Tyrant91101 | which is what i would envision hapening once the system can't support the information | 14:24 |
| epitron | our way of tacking the complexity is to break it down into smaller and smaller subdisciplines | 14:24 |
| epitron | then summarize and aggregate | 14:24 |
| epitron | but at some point there's so many layers and so much information loss that it stops working | 14:24 |
| epitron | if our brains were designed like bureaucracies, we'd have gone extinct a long time ago | 14:25 |
| Tyrant91101 | but that's a false analogy | 14:25 |
| epitron | it's more of a joke | 14:25 |
| Tyrant91101 | and our brains are to some extent designed like that | 14:25 |
| epitron | the brain is designed more like pixar | 14:26 |
| epitron | there are cross-hierarchical links all over the place | 14:26 |
| Tyrant91101 | just like our brains evolved to process the information we needed to survive, so do beauracracies evolve | 14:26 |
| Tyrant91101 | and just like the brain, beauracracies may not do everything the most efficient way possible | 14:26 |
| epitron | a bureacracy requires lateral communication to go up the hierarchy and back down | 14:26 |
| epitron | which kills the signal | 14:26 |
| Tyrant91101 | huh? | 14:27 |
| Tyrant91101 | i dont understand | 14:27 |
| epitron | if you're in accounts, and i'm in marketing, i can't talk to you... i have to talk to my boss | 14:27 |
| epitron | then he talks to your boss | 14:27 |
| epitron | or rather to his boss | 14:27 |
| epitron | who talks to your boss | 14:27 |
| Tyrant91101 | ah i see | 14:27 |
| Tyrant91101 | well there are similar heirarchies in the brain | 14:28 |
| Tyrant91101 | nervous system i mean | 14:28 |
| epitron | there are hierarchies | 14:28 |
| epitron | but they are functional ones :) | 14:28 |
| epitron | and if lateral communication is necessary, the brain just grows links | 14:28 |
| Tyrant91101 | just as functional as that of a beauracracy | 14:28 |
| epitron | hmmm | 14:28 |
| Tyrant91101 | you're confusing functionality with efficiency | 14:28 |
| epitron | haha | 14:29 |
| epitron | i suppose | 14:29 |
| epitron | although that is a function | 14:29 |
| Tyrant91101 | the american beauracracy works, just like the brain | 14:29 |
| Tyrant91101 | but neither are efficient | 14:29 |
| epitron | but the point i was making is that nobody can see the big picture | 14:29 |
| Tyrant91101 | you don't need to | 14:29 |
| epitron | i don't think this discussion is going anywhere :) | 14:29 |
| epitron | let's change angles | 14:29 |
| Tyrant91101 | no single bacterium in a colony in that lake knows the big picture of that colony, but the colony survives and evolves to meet the needs of survival | 14:30 |
| epitron | that's emergent behaviour | 14:30 |
| epitron | and efficiency is critical | 14:30 |
| epitron | if they can't spread plasmid rings fast enough, the colony could die | 14:31 |
| Tyrant91101 | fast enough does not mean the fastest possible spreading | 14:31 |
| epitron | you get that in bureaucracies too.. if they can't make decisions fast enough, they could miss out on things. | 14:31 |
| epitron | or people could get bored waiting for their boss to get back to them | 14:31 |
| epitron | and they could forget what they wanted tod o | 14:31 |
| epitron | and it could go undone | 14:31 |
| uniqanomaly | or drugs approval takes 10 years | 14:31 |
| uniqanomaly | -> FDA | 14:32 |
| Tyrant91101 | the stomach could have been designed to send signals that you're no longer hungry in seconds, yet it takes 20 minutes | 14:32 |
| Tyrant91101 | its not the fastest and most efficient, but its fast and efficient enough | 14:32 |
| epitron | well, maybe your stomach has to make sure you ate something nutritious | 14:32 |
| epitron | it has to start breaking it down | 14:32 |
| uniqanomaly | Tyrant91101: not really | 14:32 |
| epitron | if you ate styrofoam you should eat something else | 14:32 |
| uniqanomaly | 20 minutes is about digestion | 14:32 |
| Tyrant91101 | epitron, you can eat whatever you want, you can eat pure cellulose and the stomach will tell you you're full | 14:33 |
| clemux | is it the stomach's role to send satiety signals? | 14:33 |
| epitron | haha | 14:33 |
| epitron | there's a few things at play there | 14:33 |
| Tyrant91101 | that you've eaten something and that you're full, yes | 14:33 |
| epitron | cellulose is actually used by the bacteria in your gut | 14:33 |
| Tyrant91101 | but about nutrition and all that, no | 14:33 |
| epitron | it's nutritious to them, and they are nutritious to you | 14:33 |
| Tyrant91101 | hmm i thought we couldnt break down cellulose | 14:34 |
| epitron | we don't, but the gut bacteria need it | 14:34 |
| epitron | that's how cows work | 14:34 |
| Tyrant91101 | anyway, you could drink water and your stomach will tell you you're full | 14:34 |
| epitron | that's why you're supposed to eat lots of fiber | 14:34 |
| epitron | water is nutritious :) | 14:34 |
| epitron | it's one of the most important nutrients | 14:34 |
| epitron | you can go a month without food... but only 3 days without water | 14:35 |
| Tyrant91101 | that's irrelevant | 14:35 |
| epitron | well, why don't you tell me your point instead of these analogies :) | 14:35 |
| Tyrant91101 | your body has other methods of telling you you need water | 14:35 |
| Tyrant91101 | i already said my point | 14:35 |
| Tyrant91101 | the stomach messaging your brain isn't the most efficient way possible | 14:36 |
| Tyrant91101 | but its efficient enough for survival | 14:36 |
| epitron | that's what you were saying?? | 14:36 |
| epitron | i think the stomach thing is a bad example :) | 14:36 |
| Tyrant91101 | most organism, and systems in general, evolve only to be as efficient as needed | 14:36 |
| epitron | but yes, that's true | 14:36 |
| epitron | (good examples are hard) | 14:36 |
| Tyrant91101 | going back to the information thing, we'll evolve our systems to handle whatever information comes our way | 14:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | perhaps we'll get overloaded and hit that brick wall soon | 14:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | but you cant say that for certain | 14:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | anyway nice talking to you | 14:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | i gotta go to a diybio meeting | 14:37 |
| epitron | okay... | 14:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | ill be back online in an hour or so | 14:37 |
| epitron | ttyl! | 14:37 |
| epitron | have fun | 14:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | thank you | 14:37 |
| -!- Tyrant91101 [~tyrant@24.24.171.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] | 14:42 | |
| kanzure | "Leonard Hayflick is keeping aborted fetal tissue samples in his garage" what? | 14:51 |
| kanzure | epitron: yes, the selectively-breeding-drosophila person is michael rose who now works for genescient | 14:52 |
| epitron | kanzure: wewt :) | 14:52 |
| epitron | that guy is pretty awesome | 14:53 |
| epitron | "two excellent advices for wielding too much power: | 14:54 |
| epitron | 1. Do less; don't do everything that seems like a good idea, but only what you must do. | 14:54 |
| epitron | 2. Avoid doing things you can't undo." | 14:54 |
| epitron | seasoned coders know those two lessons well :) | 14:55 |
| epitron | (that's for tyrant91101 when he gets back) | 14:56 |
| kanzure | "Palo Alto, CA - December 20, 2010 - The Foresight Institute, a nanotechnology education and public policy think tank based in Palo Alto, has announced the winners of the prestigious 2010 Foresight Institute Feynman Prizes in Nanotechnology." | 15:12 |
| kanzure | "The winner of the 2010 Feynman Prize for Experimental work is Masakazu Aono (MANA Center, National Institute for Materials Science, Japan) in recognition of his pioneering and continuing work, including research into the manipulation of atoms, the multiprobe STM and AFM, the atomic switch, and single-molecule-level chemical control including ultradense molecular data storage and molecular wiring; and his inspiration of an entire generation of resea | 15:13 |
| kanzure | "The winner of the 2010 Feynman Prize for Theory is Gustavo E. Scuseria (Rice University) for his development of quantum mechanical methods and computational programs that make it possible to carry out accurate theoretical predictions of molecules and solids, and their application to the chemical and electronic properties of carbon nanostructures." | 15:13 |
| kanzure | i can't seem to find this on their site | 15:13 |
| epitron | ooo, theory AND experiment prizes | 15:15 |
| epitron | i like the sound of that molecule simulator | 15:15 |
| epitron | you ever play with molecule simulators, kanzure? | 15:16 |
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| kanzure | epitron: have you looked at nanoengineer yet | 15:23 |
| epitron | nope! | 15:23 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 15:23 |
| kanzure | http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 | 15:24 |
| epitron | mmm.. cgit | 15:24 |
| epitron | oh man, these nanomachines are trippy | 15:25 |
| epitron | reality is all jiggly :) | 15:26 |
| epitron | so i take it you have played with this thing? | 15:26 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:26 |
| kanzure | and i'm now hosting the git repo | 15:26 |
| epitron | did you make any neat jiggly things? | 15:26 |
| kanzure | you can join the new mailing list http://groups.google.com/group/nanoengineer-dev | 15:26 |
| kanzure | no i've been doing more high-level maintenance stuff | 15:27 |
| kanzure | like svn->git conversion | 15:27 |
| epitron | you must have a minute or two to play though :D | 15:27 |
| epitron | it's jiggly things! | 15:27 |
| kanzure | i'm too busy to jiggle.. i'm acting like i'm working on gitduino.com | 15:28 |
| epitron | and what's that to further? | 15:28 |
| kanzure | github+thingiverse open source hardware hosting hotness | 15:29 |
| epitron | EXTREEEEEEEME | 15:29 |
| flamoto | http://arbornet.org/~flamoot/telepathic-critterdrug.html updated | 15:30 |
| kanzure | go away | 15:30 |
| epitron | who, flamoto? | 15:30 |
| epitron | FLAMOTO | 15:30 |
| epitron | that's fun to imagine saying | 15:30 |
| flamoto | leave me alone | 15:30 |
| flamoto | rude as heck | 15:30 |
| flamoto | yeah | 15:30 |
| flamoto | flamoto is a good permutation of my real name | 15:30 |
| flamoto | "flamoot" | 15:31 |
| flamoto | i put blood sprays in my a life evolver | 15:31 |
| epitron | FLAMOOT | 15:31 |
| epitron | that's awasome too | 15:31 |
| flamoto | i wired a synthetic brain with and gates yesterday | 15:31 |
| epitron | you should rotate between them | 15:31 |
| kanzure | epitron: see pm | 15:31 |
| flamoto | i'm going to try to make a robot controller to seed this thing with | 15:31 |
| flamoto | :3 | 15:31 |
| flamoto | brb >> | 15:31 |
| epitron | so kanzure... | 15:32 |
| kanzure | sup | 15:32 |
| epitron | this Masakazu Aono guy's experimental discoveries | 15:33 |
| epitron | can they run on nanoengineer? | 15:33 |
| kanzure | o | 15:33 |
| kanzure | i'm not familiar with his work | 15:34 |
| kanzure | nanoengineer primarily does atomically-precise mechanical modeling, and then offloads these models to various simulators like GROMACS | 15:34 |
| kanzure | it's not uncommon for researchers making up theoretical frameworks to just write their own simulators all the time | 15:34 |
| epitron | interesting | 15:35 |
| kanzure | i should add that ne-1 doesn't just use gromacs of course | 15:35 |
| epitron | i bet that kind of thing would be easier with a good language workbench | 15:35 |
| kanzure | there's a few other packages that i'm forgetting the names of | 15:35 |
| epitron | can you play with these models in real-time? | 15:35 |
| epitron | like.. interactively? | 15:35 |
| kanzure | nanoengineer-1 was designed based on solidworks | 15:35 |
| kanzure | so yes | 15:35 |
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| kanzure | there's also tutorials up on youtube | 15:35 |
| kanzure | hi Tyrant91101 we're talking about http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 | 15:36 |
| epitron | ohh, i think i get why you need the models... | 15:36 |
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| epitron | in that motor, for example.. | 15:36 |
| epitron | you have some complex relationships going on | 15:36 |
| kanzure | well also because these guys are hoping for molecular nanotechnology and molecular machines | 15:36 |
| epitron | a basic atom force model might not be able to handle that, right? | 15:36 |
| kanzure | so once http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/freitas_process.txt works, what do you build? :) | 15:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | kanzure, are those nanotech machines that have been made? | 15:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | or just simulated for now? | 15:37 |
| kanzure | Tyrant91101: just simulated | 15:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | shame :( | 15:37 |
| kanzure | in the past few months i've been bringing the simulator/CAD environment into the public | 15:37 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 15:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | nice | 15:37 |
| kanzure | it was open source, but not in the traditional sense (i.e. just the last release was publicly available and open source) | 15:37 |
| kanzure | but now all of the development history is available as well | 15:37 |
| Tyrant91101 | now if only there was a good open source CAD and CAM package | 15:37 |
| kanzure | one of the first things we did (well, fitzsim- he's sometimes in here) is get rid of the damn advertisement splash logo screen on bootup | 15:38 |
| kanzure | Tyrant91101: http://heekscad.org/ is a start | 15:38 |
| kanzure | i have a tiny python-based CAD kernel called lolcad http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad | 15:38 |
| epitron | lolcad! | 15:38 |
| kanzure | lolcad is sort of like an all-in-one kernel that hopefully will be easier than openscad to use | 15:38 |
| kanzure | also it's written in python so you get interactive interpreter goodness | 15:39 |
| kanzure | ... once i get it more functional | 15:39 |
| Tyrant91101 | heh i dont think cad is anywhere near as developed as commercial packages | 15:39 |
| epitron | wow, commenty | 15:39 |
| kanzure | heekscad is much further along ;) | 15:39 |
| Tyrant91101 | unfortuantely i have to stick to the caltech pro/e and mechanica licenses | 15:39 |
| Tyrant91101 | :9 | 15:39 |
| Tyrant91101 | :( | 15:39 |
| epitron | do those comments generate code? | 15:39 |
| kanzure | epitron: in lolcad? | 15:39 |
| epitron | they look pretty structured | 15:39 |
| epitron | yeah | 15:39 |
| kanzure | well. | 15:39 |
| kanzure | yes and no | 15:39 |
| epitron | this looks like a much more ordered version of that old thing you were working on | 15:40 |
| kanzure | basically STEP is an ISO definition in a language called EXPRESS which is also an ISO definition | 15:40 |
| epitron | the apt-get for stuff | 15:40 |
| kanzure | the right way to do this would be to write an EXPRESS parser in python | 15:40 |
| kanzure | but i really didn't want to or know how at the time, so i decided to just write it the way you see it | 15:40 |
| epitron | you should make those comments docstrings then | 15:40 |
| kanzure | the next steps for lolcad are cleaning it up a little bit, a simplified geometry API on top of all that bullshit, | 15:40 |
| epitron | then python could read them off the classes and compile them | 15:40 |
| kanzure | and getting NURBS mapping to the geometric entities-- right now there's some NURBS rendering going on but it's limited to basic objects, and it's not even in the same file | 15:41 |
| Tyrant91101 | ugh i have to figure out how to do FEM and dump it on to amazon ec2 | 15:41 |
| Tyrant91101 | fun week | 15:41 |
| kanzure | openfoam? | 15:41 |
| kanzure | i'm sure you can pay $$$ to cosmosworks if you want something proprietary | 15:41 |
| kanzure | there's also freefem++ | 15:41 |
| kanzure | i really like the freefem++ syntax, but it might be a little limited in terms of capabilities | 15:42 |
| Tyrant91101 | yeah im going to have to decide sometime this week | 15:42 |
| epitron | solidworks 2010 is 10 gigs? | 15:42 |
| kanzure | salome-platform.org is built by the same guys as opencascade (the library behind heekscad.org) so the quality is a little questionable | 15:42 |
| kanzure | epitron: my copy is only 4ish | 15:42 |
| epitron | man, kanzure is like a predictive search engine | 15:42 |
| epitron | he gives you links before you ask | 15:42 |
| epitron | do you mind if i patent you? | 15:43 |
| Tyrant91101 | i think he would mind lmao | 15:43 |
| epitron | it's okay, i won't license him | 15:43 |
| epitron | i'll just license copies of him | 15:43 |
| epitron | i'm just patenting the idea of the process of him | 15:43 |
| kanzure | epitron: back to the nanotech stuff.. you should look at http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/freitas_process.txt | 15:45 |
| Tyrant91101 | i wish you could patent the idea of patenting | 15:45 |
| Tyrant91101 | id be rich | 15:45 |
| epitron | some guy patented the idea of making a machine that can make patents | 15:46 |
| epitron | and apparently he made that machine | 15:46 |
| epitron | and it generated his next two patents | 15:46 |
| epitron | (seriously) | 15:46 |
| epitron | kanzure: i'm not familiar with these techniques you've got in this doc | 15:47 |
| epitron | is there some nanotech textbook i can read? | 15:47 |
| kanzure | epitron: freitas is in the process of writing another one | 15:47 |
| epitron | i should probably get a good foundation | 15:47 |
| kanzure | this is a good presentation: http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm | 15:47 |
| kanzure | a good foundation is the book 'Nanosystems' by drexler, but it's a little dated | 15:48 |
| epitron | who's freitas? | 15:48 |
| kanzure | it goes over all of the fundamental concepts, but some of them just stop abruptly, which are the ones that happened to have the most progress on | 15:48 |
| kanzure | freitas is the guy who wrote the 1980s NASA report on a self-replicating moon base | 15:48 |
| kanzure | http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ | 15:48 |
| epitron | hahaha | 15:48 |
| kanzure | and then the book on kinematic self-replicating machines | 15:48 |
| kanzure | http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm | 15:48 |
| epitron | that looks fun | 15:49 |
| kanzure | his site is here: http://rfreitas.com/ | 15:49 |
| kanzure | yeah KSRM is a big deal in the reprap community | 15:49 |
| kanzure | (and to me) | 15:49 |
| Tyrant91101 | epitron, yeah its a massive brute force thingy | 15:50 |
| Tyrant91101 | you stick a problem in and it brute forces a mechanical solution | 15:50 |
| kanzure | Tyrant91101: i was working at "automated design lab" for a while | 15:51 |
| epitron | kanzure: i meant the aasm... | 15:51 |
| kanzure | we were using graph theory for automated design based on rules for what can plug into whatever | 15:51 |
| epitron | i remember that we talked about the KSRM a long time ago though! | 15:51 |
| epitron | you wanted to fill every cubic centimeter of the universe with self replicating garbage | 15:51 |
| kanzure | garbage huh | 15:51 |
| epitron | YEAH | 15:51 |
| epitron | PUNK | 15:51 |
| epitron | i kid i kid | 15:51 |
| QuantumG | McDonalds or Starbucks? | 15:52 |
| Tyrant91101 | the latter | 15:52 |
| Tyrant91101 | definitely | 15:52 |
| Tyrant91101 | better to be a hipster barrista | 15:52 |
| epitron | self-replicating coffee cups? | 15:52 |
| QuantumG | Starbucks is certainly self-replicating. | 15:52 |
| epitron | idneed | 15:52 |
| epitron | man, whenever i talk to kanzure, my browser ends up full of tabs | 15:52 |
| QuantumG | and their coffee tastes like grey goo | 15:52 |
| epitron | i just cleaned it too | 15:52 |
| epitron | lol @ grey goo joke | 15:53 |
| Tyrant91101 | tbh starbucks coffee reminds me of soylent green | 15:54 |
| Tyrant91101 | i duno why | 15:54 |
| kanzure | epitron: yeah i have the same problem with tabs | 15:54 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-06-16.png | 15:54 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-06-07_polymerase.png | 15:54 |
| epitron | HAHAHA | 15:54 |
| kanzure | oh.. actual tabs: | 15:55 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-29-30.png | 15:55 |
| epitron | what is that huge blue thing? | 15:55 |
| epitron | (cyan) | 15:55 |
| epitron | if that was my hard drive, it would be music | 15:55 |
| kanzure | nature.com | 15:55 |
| epitron | you have a copy of nature on your hard drive? | 15:55 |
| kanzure | one of my hard drives.. | 15:56 |
| epitron | what year does it date back to? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | 18xx | 15:56 |
| epitron | have you read any of it? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | lots of it | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i even wrote my own weird.. "pdfs instead of television".. thing | 15:56 |
| kanzure | for back when i had >3 monitors | 15:56 |
| epitron | a software thing? | 15:57 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:57 |
| kanzure | well i figured instead of tv i could "watch" science | 15:57 |
| kanzure | and then pause it when the article/paper looks especially interesting | 15:57 |
| epitron | so you'd plop down in front of your computer with some spaghetti and it would display things to you? | 15:57 |
| kanzure | pretty much | 15:57 |
| epitron | that's awesome | 15:57 |
| epitron | my friend did that with the linux kernel once | 15:58 |
| kanzure | honestly i thought you'd be more into 2008-03-29-30.png | 15:58 |
| epitron | he made it his 2nd screen | 15:58 |
| epitron | it would just play it all day while he was working | 15:58 |
| epitron | he learned a lot :) | 15:58 |
| epitron | you showed me a screenshot like that a long time ago | 15:58 |
| epitron | i used to have screenshots like that a long time ago | 15:58 |
| epitron | too many tabs is a curse for me! | 15:59 |
| QuantumG | get tab candy | 15:59 |
| epitron | is it less flaky now? | 15:59 |
| epitron | i tried it a few betas ago | 16:00 |
| QuantumG | only problem I have with it: if my browser dies I have to restore the groups manually (the tabs restore fine) | 16:00 |
| QuantumG | that might be fixed by now though | 16:00 |
| epitron | kanzure: https://chris.ill-logic.com/mrserver/screenshots/opera-and-mp3elfTNG.png | 16:01 |
| epitron | that's Aug 2002, according to the file | 16:02 |
| epitron | oo... pretty windows theme: https://chris.ill-logic.com/mrserver/screenshots/outlook2003.png | 16:02 |
| epitron | QuantumG: haha... | 16:04 |
| epitron | that's a pretty brutal bug for a beta to have | 16:04 |
| kanzure | epin8r? | 16:07 |
| epitron | ICEMAN, scoreotaph, epitaph5, epiphone, epijeeneeus, pietron, Copy_of_epitron, epitronical, epitaph3, aching_rash, epimyass, CrazyDazed, taph[epi], epigenetic, epagoge, snoreotaph, epitroon, epitrono, epilogue1, epitine, epidemic, epigram, epitaph4, [n2o], epilogue, mistataph, epi, epitronics, epitron_, epitron_plus, epitronic, epigauge, epiglottis, epitaffy, epithet, noeld, epitoad, epigenesis, epitone, epizoa, epigenetics, epitaph6, epicac, | 16:09 |
| epitron | epitax, epimule, epitr0n, ^_^, epijean, epitron_pro, epiweb, file_id_diz, epitaph2, epitronium, epitato, epitaph, epitron2000, capntaph, werdguest608, epoutine, epitaph7, epinat0r, changs_hair, DrEpi, epitron, epikeeneeus, epinoodle, epitrain, epipen, DrAwesome, orotaph, epimaas, Lt_E_P_Taph, epiling, epitro1, epigawge, epitronn, zorotaph | 16:09 |
| augur | epitron: eugh | 16:09 |
| augur | what is with that theme | 16:09 |
| augur | its horrible | 16:09 |
| epitron | it was 2002 man | 16:09 |
| kanzure | epitaph? | 16:09 |
| augur | looks like 1992 | 16:09 |
| kanzure | oh. | 16:09 |
| epitron | yessum! | 16:09 |
| kanzure | you dumped a list | 16:09 |
| kanzure | ^_^ can't count | 16:10 |
| -!- epitron is now known as Lt_E_P_Taph | 16:10 | |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | CARRY ON HERE SEARGENTS | 16:10 |
| kanzure | old screenshot https://chris.ill-logic.com/mrserver/screenshots/coolfont.png | 16:11 |
| kanzure | you've been at this for a while | 16:11 |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | yeah man | 16:12 |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | i started using computers when i was 7 | 16:12 |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | when the user interface was ROM BASIC | 16:12 |
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| augur | Lt_E_P_Taph: how old are you? | 16:38 |
| kanzure | you probably shouldn't watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdU05-Ewdl4 | 16:39 |
| kanzure | there were a few odd years where i was makign dbz amv videos back before youtube existed that i don't tell anyone about | 16:41 |
| kanzure | *making | 16:41 |
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| Lt_E_P_Taph | augur: 31 | 16:46 |
| kanzure | holy crap you're an oldie | 16:46 |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | what it is, daddy-o | 16:47 |
| kanzure | you could be my dad | 16:47 |
| kanzure | Lt_E_P_Taph: http://bit.ly/diybionews | 16:52 |
| kanzure | those links should last you at least a few minutes, right? | 16:52 |
| augur | Lt_E_P_Taph: so you're not that old then | 16:52 |
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| Lt_E_P_Taph | not really, no :) | 16:55 |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | If you are in a shipwreck and all the boats are gone, a piano top ... that comes along makes a fortuitous life preserver. But this is not to say that the best way to design a life preserver is in the form of a piano top. I think that we are clinging to a great many piano tops in accepting yesterday's fortuitous contrivings. | 17:09 |
| Lt_E_P_Taph | -- Buckminster Fuller | 17:09 |
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| kanzure | ftp> dir | 17:18 |
| kanzure | 200 PORT command successful | 17:18 |
| kanzure | 425 Could not open data connection to port 3017: Connection timed out | 17:18 |
| kanzure | ftp> | 17:18 |
| kanzure | durr | 17:18 |
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| JayDugger | minor clipboard malfunction? | 18:03 |
| kanzure | embarrassing | 18:04 |
| JayDugger | If nothing worse happens today, good. Minor, discreet, and past. | 18:06 |
| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. | 18:06 |
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| kanzure | http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/WILT.pdf | 18:46 |
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| kanzure | if you have webgl enabled: http://bodybrowser.googlelabs.com/index.html | 19:51 |
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| kanzure | not that it's new.. http://brainblogger.com/2010/12/18/a-brain-made-of-memristors/ | 20:31 |
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| mheld | anybody do any research on sensory induction? | 20:56 |
| mheld | like, inducing sensory input via magnets | 20:58 |
| mheld | or electrical impulses | 20:58 |
| superkuh | A little. Did you have a question? | 20:58 |
| superkuh | And it's not precise to say "magnets". It's always electromagnets. | 20:59 |
| mheld | I was just looking for some reading material | 20:59 |
| mheld | /pointers | 20:59 |
| superkuh | When you are depolarizing nerves with a magnetic field it is the rate of change in the field that matters; not flux. Okay. | 20:59 |
| mheld | ah | 20:59 |
| superkuh | http://www.superkuh.com/users/superkuh/Library/001-rTMS/ | 20:59 |
| superkuh | You might start in; http://www.superkuh.com/users/superkuh/Library/001-rTMS/005-Books/ | 21:00 |
| mheld | gracias | 21:00 |
| mheld | I'd love to build some sort of IO cap that could induce some sort of shared state between a community of people | 21:03 |
| superkuh | So you write fantasy books? | 21:04 |
| mheld | ha | 21:04 |
| mheld | no | 21:04 |
| mheld | I'm a computer scientist who happens to have seen one too many sci-fi movies | 21:05 |
| superkuh | rTMS will never be that. The precision is not great and deep stimulation is hard if not infeasible. | 21:05 |
| mheld | of course not | 21:05 |
| mheld | but it's a lot less invasive than surgery for some research | 21:05 |
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| kanzure | i should read more into russell's papers/talks sometime | 21:18 |
| kanzure | http://www.russellhanson.com/ | 21:18 |
| * kanzure is looking at http://www.russellhanson.com/web/capump-2004-04-28.pdf | 21:19 | |
| kanzure | "Dynamical properties of the calcium pump of sarcoplasmic reticulum: a normal mode analysis" | 21:19 |
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| kanzure | lol russell http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=7212 | 21:26 |
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| Tyrant91101 | kanzure, you there? | 22:29 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Dec 20 00:00:07 2010 | ||
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