| --- Log opened Thu Jan 13 00:00:04 2011 | ||
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| fenn | http://vimeo.com/channels/neuronirvana | 02:42 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | hum, nevermind | 02:55 |
| Utopiah | epitron: iirc you were interesting in large graph, might like http://gephi.org if you didn't already play with it | 03:02 |
| epitron | Utopiah: hah, yeah, that was a while ago.. good memory | 03:04 |
| epitron | this looks nice | 03:04 |
| Utopiah | the wiki has extra metrics and layouts if the default install doesn't have the ones you need | 03:05 |
| epitron | i still don't understand why people draw all the edges | 03:06 |
| epitron | it makes the graph insanely hard to read :) | 03:06 |
| Utopiah | (and funny things like http://vimeo.com/18591468 ) | 03:06 |
| epitron | there are techniques of hiding them... like force-directed edge grouping, or using force fields | 03:06 |
| epitron | err.. energy fields.. like.. just colouring the background around the nodes to represent how hot the connection density is | 03:07 |
| Utopiah | guess it's to give an connectivity "feeling" for people not familiar with how layouts work | 03:09 |
| epitron | yeah.. | 03:10 |
| epitron | or maybe it's just that it's the easiest thing to implement, and it's open source... | 03:10 |
| epitron | and everyone else implements it that way | 03:10 |
| epitron | this is a pretty crazy thing though... and it has layout plugins, so booya :) | 03:11 |
| epitron | here' two plugins that this guy needs: | 03:22 |
| epitron | http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project.cfm?id=616 | 03:22 |
| epitron | http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project.cfm?id=215 | 03:22 |
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| dbolser | The information for synthesizing the molecules that allow organisms to survive and replicate is encoded in genomic DNA. In the cell, DNA is copied to messenger RNA, and triplet codons (64) in the messenger RNA are decoded - in the process of translation - to synthesize polymers of the natural 20 amino acids. This process (DNA RNA protein) describes the central dogma of molecular biology and is conserved in terrestrial life. We are interested in re-w | 05:25 |
| dbolser | Jason Chin, Cambridge, Tuesday 25 January at 1600 hours, Small Lecture Theatre, Wellcome Trust Centre for Gene Regulation & Expression and MRC, | 05:26 |
| dbolser | Flow Map Layout could realy help with my genome scaffolding problem | 05:30 |
| Lukas__ | It cut off at "We are interested in re-w" | 05:31 |
| dbolser | Lukas__: sorry | 05:32 |
| Lukas__ | No problem | 05:32 |
| dbolser | We are interested in re-writing the central dogma to create organisms | 05:33 |
| dbolser | that synthesize proteins containing unnatural amino acids and polymers | 05:33 |
| dbolser | composed of monomer building blocks beyond the 20 natural amino | 05:33 |
| dbolser | acids. I will discuss our invention and synthetic evolution of new | 05:33 |
| dbolser | 'orthogonal' translational components (including ribosomes and | 05:33 |
| dbolser | aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases) to address the major challenges in | 05:33 |
| dbolser | re-writing the central dogma of biology. I will discuss the | 05:33 |
| dbolser | application of the approaches we have developed for incorporating | 05:33 |
| dbolser | unnatural amino acids into proteins and investigating and | 05:33 |
| dbolser | synthetically controlling diverse biological processes, with a | 05:33 |
| dbolser | particular emphasis on understanding the role of post-translational | 05:33 |
| dbolser | modifications. | 05:33 |
| Lukas__ | Link please? | 05:34 |
| dbolser | google Jason Chin, Cambridge? | 05:34 |
| dbolser | its from an eamil about a local seminar, so there is no link to hand | 05:34 |
| Utopiah | http://www2.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/group-leaders/a-to-g/j-chin | 05:34 |
| Lukas__ | Also, is there any talk of incorporating synthetic base pairs ? | 05:34 |
| dbolser | mrc-lmb is the best place on earth for molecular biology | 05:35 |
| dbolser | Lukas__: people do do that | 05:35 |
| dbolser | also there are peptide analogues of DNA that are robust | 05:35 |
| Lukas__ | I didn't know that was done | 05:36 |
| dbolser | only for short pieces afaik | 05:37 |
| dbolser | they are resistant to nuclease activity | 05:37 |
| dbolser | l8r | 05:37 |
| Lukas__ | I only heard: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13252-artificial-letters-added-to-lifes-alphabet.html | 05:37 |
| Lukas__ | but I didn't know anything came of it | 05:38 |
| kanzure | yeah a number of different labs have done that by now, Lukas__ | 06:33 |
| Lukas__ | heh, I need to lurk more | 06:34 |
| Lukas__ | Is there any information on what new properties these artificial amino acids and polymers have? | 06:39 |
| kanzure | 3 GB uploaded http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/ | 06:40 |
| kanzure | including an old copy of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/microfluidics/ (the full upload of /papers/microfluidics/ will come later in the list) | 06:43 |
| kanzure | Lukas__: i don't presently remember a good overview article | 06:43 |
| Lukas__ | thanks | 06:44 |
| kanzure | Lukas__: search on http://scholar.google.com for 'unnatural base pairs' and 'unnatural nucleotides' and 'unnatural amino acids' | 06:44 |
| kanzure | "Efforts toward expansion of the genetic alphabet: replication of DNA with three base pairs" | 06:44 |
| kanzure | Unnatural base pair systems for DNA/RNA-based biotechnology http://www.biochem.wisc.edu/courses/biochem704/Reading/HiraoCurrOpinChemBio06.pdf | 06:45 |
| kanzure | Unnatural base pairs for specific transcription http://www.pnas.org/content/98/9/4922.full | 06:45 |
| kanzure | A two-unnatural-base-pair system toward the expansion of the genetic code | 06:45 |
| kanzure | Efforts toward the expansion of the genetic alphabet: information storage and replication with unnatural hydrophobic base pairs | 06:45 |
| kanzure | Optimization of unnatural base pair packing for polymerase recognition http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536690/ | 06:46 |
| kanzure | Enzymatic incorporation of a new base pair into DNA and RNA extends the genetic alphabet http://www.ffame.org/sbenner/nature343.33-37.pdf | 06:46 |
| kanzure | anywho.. yeah. | 06:46 |
| Lukas__ | O.o | 06:47 |
| Lukas__ | I am surprised all of this went over my head | 06:47 |
| Lukas__ | thanks guys | 06:47 |
| kanzure | yeah, well, science reporting really sucks | 06:48 |
| kanzure | so you shouldn't trust physorg, sciencenews, or whatever other site you read.. just read the papers directly | 06:48 |
| Lukas__ | yea, they really drop the ball sometimes | 06:50 |
| kanzure | video alert | 06:53 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us:9000/s/-1-5-ben-best-cryonics-introduction-and-technical-challenges | 06:53 |
| Lukas__ | Did you watch it? | 06:54 |
| Utopiah | YT copy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXcHD5hFj50 | 06:54 |
| Lukas__ | thanks, did you watch it? | 06:55 |
| kanzure | no, there's no way i can watch all 600 hours of these videos | 06:56 |
| kanzure | i suppose there *is* but it will take me a while | 06:56 |
| Lukas__ | :D true | 06:57 |
| Lukas__ | I just want to make sure they are talking about actual research | 06:57 |
| kanzure | ooh a bigdog talk http://diyhpl.us:9000/s/bigdog-the-rough-terrain-robot | 06:58 |
| kanzure | Lukas__: yeah, ben best talks about actual research ;) | 06:58 |
| Lukas__ | okay, thanks | 06:59 |
| Lukas__ | Kanzure, how long do you think it'll be until we start strapping fire arms on the bigdog? | 06:59 |
| Lukas__ | I give it 5 or so years | 06:59 |
| kanzure | i thought that's what it's for? carrying firearms? | 07:05 |
| Lukas__ | Nope | 07:11 |
| Lukas__ | it's a robotic mule | 07:11 |
| Lukas__ | at least for now | 07:11 |
| kanzure | uh yeah what do you think it's doing, carrying stones? | 07:13 |
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| Lukas__ | A soldier's pack - item's they'd need in the field . Bigdog allows a squad to carry what they need without weighing themselves down, allowing infantry to carry combat gear without having to worry about other stuff increases combat effectiveness | 07:32 |
| Lukas__ | I think a soldier's pack is somewhere around 50-80lbs | 07:32 |
| Lukas__ | so traveling light (especially in tough terrain) will be a big help | 07:33 |
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| gloop | dbolser: does your codon re-writing interest integrate the natural evolution of the polar-requirement of optomized codons? http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/q-bio/pdf/0605/0605036v1.pdf | 07:47 |
| gloop | the codons are redundant for a reason | 07:48 |
| gloop | http://www.springerlink.com/content/p7r3324138u62120/ | 07:50 |
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| strages | !note Gregabyte_ http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/mvpage.html | 07:55 |
| dbolser | gloop: indeed | 08:01 |
| dbolser | but for synbio, we aren't at the stage where we need to engineer robustly | 08:01 |
| dbolser | engineering at all is the first step | 08:01 |
| gloop | i'd imagine that it'd be preferable to have synthetic organisms not survive beyond their intended use | 08:02 |
| gloop | thus their generations would lose out to mutation errors | 08:02 |
| gloop | programmed into the machinery | 08:02 |
| gloop | designed to error, or designed to survive...depending on the use | 08:03 |
| gloop | (correction: they're not mutually exlcusive) | 08:04 |
| gloop | (self-correction) | 08:04 |
| kanzure | http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/what-should-a-reasonable-person-believe-about-the-singularity/ | 08:05 |
| timschmidt | :( sparkfun | 08:05 |
| kanzure | this reminds me of theuncertainfuture.com.. a little something i worked on a whiel back | 08:07 |
| kanzure | oh, someone mentions it in the comments | 08:07 |
| genehacker | :( sparkfun | 08:07 |
| genehacker | I'm in! | 08:09 |
| timschmidt | :-/ | 08:09 |
| timschmidt | not here | 08:09 |
| genehacker | well I'm not in anymore | 08:11 |
| genehacker | i'm in again! | 08:13 |
| timschmidt | making it any further? | 08:16 |
| genehacker | no | 08:18 |
| genehacker | stuck | 08:18 |
| timschmidt | haven't made it in yet here | 08:18 |
| genehacker | ok goto http://www.sparkfun.com/free_day/quiz | 08:19 |
| genehacker | quick shot | 08:19 |
| timschmidt | woo! | 08:19 |
| genehacker | wonder if it's better to have multitabs refreshing it | 08:19 |
| timschmidt | no, not quite | 08:19 |
| kanzure | sparkfun getting raepd on freeday again? | 08:26 |
| timschmidt | of course | 08:26 |
| timschmidt | they're exceptional at DDoSing themselves | 08:26 |
| kanzure | genehacker: you can also try /join #sparkfun | 08:28 |
| kanzure | insanity | 08:29 |
| kanzure | http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3949700/SparkfunCrash.jpg | 08:29 |
| genehacker | i'm in it | 08:30 |
| * archels got to the front page | 08:32 | |
| archels | ... and that's about it. | 08:32 |
| archels | Quiz is probably a no-no due to interpreted server side scripting. | 08:34 |
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| genehacker | can't get through | 08:49 |
| kanzure | Interview with hacker anthropologist Biella Coleman http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/13/interview-with-hacke.html | 08:54 |
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| kanzure | cambridge synthetic biology http://www.synbio.org.uk/index.php | 08:54 |
| kanzure | russell durret has a blog now http://russelldurrett.com/ | 08:55 |
| kanzure | http://biopunk.hu/2011/01/12/cyberpunk/ "A documentary about cyberpunk from 1993 (or 1990 if IMDB is right) featuring William Gibson and Timothy Leary." | 08:55 |
| kanzure | hrm i can't extract the google video link from that embed | 08:56 |
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| timschmidt | one hour in... still attempting to get to the quiz | 09:04 |
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| timschmidt | SO CLOSE | 09:35 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: you should use wget/curl to submit the quiz | 09:36 |
| timschmidt | I should. Wish I was confident enough to craft the command properly the first time | 09:37 |
| kanzure | i'll help | 09:37 |
| genehacker | dammit can't load images | 09:53 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, do you have any idea of the costs associated with running a online web app for ~ 1mil users? | 10:07 |
| delinquentme | i got in a nice little internet fist fight w some kid in #rubyonrails over what a "system" is .. and im looking for a generalish answer | 10:08 |
| archels | ah, suddenly it's over. | 10:10 |
| archels | Apparently *some* people got through. | 10:10 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: nah i've never had a site go that big | 10:23 |
| kanzure | but it really depends on how much data you're transferring out and how many page requests per second you need to serve upp | 10:23 |
| delinquentme | awesome | 10:24 |
| delinquentme | if anything else comes to mind as far as variable or fixed costs im all ears | 10:24 |
| delinquentme | and is it accurate to measure expenses in # of users? | 10:24 |
| delinquentme | or is the data transfer a better metric? | 10:24 |
| kanzure | no number of users is a bad metric | 10:25 |
| kanzure | data transfer (GB in/out per month) is useful because you can go look at bandwidth costs | 10:25 |
| kanzure | but you also have to factor in stuff like how much data you're storing on the server, or how many cores you'll need for peak load | 10:26 |
| kanzure | stalk: moteyalpha | 10:33 |
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| kanzure | anyone want to mess around with nanoengineer for me today? | 12:15 |
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| Lukas__ | ? | 12:35 |
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| Utopiah | Utilizing the Social Graph as a Relevancy Source for Data Ranking http://www.wireblur.com/discuss/498 | 12:46 |
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| jrayhawk | Hi, Jebba. I remember you from the Mer project. | 13:19 |
| jrayhawk | and also giving a slightly terrifying amount of money to wikipedia | 13:23 |
| Lukas__ | ? | 13:25 |
| kanzure | $20,000. impressive :) | 13:25 |
| Lukas__ | D: | 13:25 |
| Lukas__ | That is extreme | 13:25 |
| Lukas__ | good man | 13:25 |
| Lukas__ | :D | 13:25 |
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| jrayhawk | Bryan: I'm probably going to be shutting down Gnusha sometime tonight for upgrades. | 13:31 |
| kanzure | what's the shut down for? | 13:32 |
| jrayhawk | an X7DB8+, two X5355s, and 12 gigs of memory | 13:33 |
| kanzure | yummy | 13:33 |
| Lukas__ | sweet | 13:41 |
| kanzure | what am i doing wrong? /script exec foreach my \$channel (Irssi::channels()) { print \$channel->{name}; } | 13:42 |
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| kanzure | aha: /script exec foreach (Irssi::channels()) { print $_->{name}; } | 13:52 |
| * kanzure is now ready for jrayhawk's damage | 13:53 | |
| kanzure | telomerase patent was granted today | 14:00 |
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| Utopiah | do you monitor new pending patent on keywords? | 14:01 |
| kanzure | no i just get massive amounts of spam | 14:01 |
| jebba | hey jrayhawk. Took me awhile to remember wtf mer was. ;) | 14:20 |
| jebba | i figure it will be easier to print a phone on a reprap than get an open phone from nokia ;) | 14:21 |
| jrayhawk | apparently you can get a openish phone out of nokia so long as you enter into a multimillion dollar platform engineering effort with them | 14:24 |
| jrayhawk | The only big closedness problems were the modem and the battery management entity, and I think source for those is now available from meego. | 14:27 |
| jebba | oh no no no. No source for that stuff still, i would (without looking) be pretty sure. | 14:27 |
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| jebba | last i looked (admittedly, like in October), there were plenty of nokia binaries needed to get functionality on meego/n900. And in fact, i dont think all that functionality was brought over even in binary form (at least back then). Long term they are going ofono which is floss, but i dont know of the status of ofono with any current nokia phone (except the calls I made with it on the n900/maemo). | 14:29 |
| jrayhawk | Oct 13: 'we now have 3G audio call functionality with proper ofono signaling and pulse audio stack working on N900, including our brand new open source modem adaptation for N900!' | 14:33 |
| jrayhawk | They claimed they were getting close to getting the BME working back in, like, July, but I can't find news on that. | 14:35 |
| jebba | Ya, but that BME working was still a binary kludge, iirc | 14:38 |
| jrayhawk | Lame. Typical Nokia, I guess. | 14:38 |
| jrayhawk | Keep the promises around in a sufficiently plausible form that people stick around, but never actually keep them. | 14:39 |
| jrayhawk | errr, fulfill them. | 14:39 |
| jebba | There's a huge list of that no doubt | 14:43 |
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| fenn | kanzure: AR assembly instructions from cad data http://youtube.com/watch?v=vOhiZ37aaww | 16:07 |
| kanzure | "AR lego" shows up under 'related videos' | 16:10 |
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| gloop | delinquentme: can you use a GPU's cores to act as server clusters? | 16:52 |
| gloop | gpgpus, etc. | 16:52 |
| delinquentme | gloop, im not sure? | 17:00 |
| delinquentme | umm actually i think not | 17:00 |
| kanzure | one of my older projects: | 17:00 |
| kanzure | http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/3qp/link_the_uncertain_future_the_future_according_to/ | 17:00 |
| delinquentme | be GPU cores dont have separate RAM etc | 17:00 |
| kanzure | we're working on getting it open sourced | 17:00 |
| gloop | i just thought about it since today there was an article on slashdot about GPU-accelerated servers | 17:02 |
| gloop | on Amazon | 17:02 |
| gloop | EC2 | 17:03 |
| kanzure | yeah i use the gpu-accelerated ec2 units for cracking your passwords | 17:03 |
| * kanzure is pals with lolhashcat | 17:03 | |
| kanzure | http://hashcat.net/oclhashcat/ | 17:04 |
| gloop | well bulldozers will have 8 cores, and 16 cores in the next year i think | 17:05 |
| gloop | oh yeah, this should definitely be able to handle 1 million users: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3768/seamicro-announces-sm10000-server-with-512-atom-cpus-and-low-power-consumption | 17:07 |
| gloop | i'd like to see one using ARM cores though (<100mW) | 17:09 |
| joshcryer | Aww, I missed that SparkFun nonsense. :( | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | gloop, there'll be a 20 core bulldozer by 2012. | 17:15 |
| joshcryer | 2 ghz cores. | 17:15 |
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| gloop | cool. i have an amd biostar that i can upgrade to 6 cores | 17:16 |
| gloop | my current chip suffices though | 17:17 |
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| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 17:22 |
| gloop | howdy | 17:23 |
| joshcryer | Hey JayDugger | 17:24 |
| joshcryer | jaytabtabtab | 17:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: fyi, kartik is getting humanity+ on board with the $80,000 grand reprap prize thing | 17:26 |
| kanzure | so we're fixing a few of the mistakes this time around | 17:26 |
| kanzure | like setting specific deadlines and terms/conditions | 17:26 |
| kanzure | presently the only written text about the grand prize is under its own section here: http://gadaprize.org/ | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i'd really like to convince him that bounties are a better idea for this | 17:26 |
| kanzure | since the whole prize thing has way too many weird dynamics | 17:27 |
| kanzure | (for instance, people are encouraged by the prize criteria presently to not disclose their work, because if they do, other people might spend more time on it and improve it to a point where their original work is worth pretty much nothing) | 17:27 |
| JayDugger | What argument have you tried, and who do you mean by "him?" | 17:27 |
| kanzure | (so they have reason to delay) | 17:27 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: the person is "kartik" (see the first message in that sequence..) | 17:27 |
| JayDugger | Done. Who's that? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | http://gadaprize.org/ the guy who organized this at foresight institute | 17:28 |
| kanzure | i thought you reviewed this for me | 17:28 |
| JayDugger | Thank you. | 17:28 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, but I've been off my nootropics. | 17:30 |
| kanzure | jebba: i didn't see your PMs earlier, sorry :/ | 17:30 |
| kanzure | jebba: http://openmanufacturing.org/ was just http://heybryan.org/om.html and http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing | 17:30 |
| gloop | kanzure, but if they improve on their work, what if their a modular aspect of their original design ends up having some other function in another design? | 17:33 |
| gloop | *if there is a modular | 17:34 |
| kanzure | gloop: well presently the idea is to split up the award money | 17:34 |
| JayDugger | Really: | 17:34 |
| kanzure | i think just paying reprap developers for specific developments is more efficient | 17:34 |
| kanzure | i.e. for $10k i bet tim schmidt or prusa or vik could get a lot of those tasks done. | 17:35 |
| JayDugger | If you do that, how would you get an integrated system instead of a collection of parts? | 17:35 |
| jebba | kanzure ++ to bounties not large prizes. I'll bounty off openmanufacturing.org ;) | 17:35 |
| kanzure | hi jebba! sorry for me being a deadbet and not re-registering openmanufacturing.org | 17:35 |
| jebba | haha np | 17:35 |
| kanzure | jebba: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb but it seems you've already looked | 17:35 |
| jebba | ya, docs/installing where i'm at right now ;) | 17:36 |
| kanzure | the recent work on it is a specification for hardware packages | 17:36 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/package_spec.yaml | 17:36 |
| kanzure | jebba: right now there's no point in installing | 17:36 |
| jebba | gotcha | 17:36 |
| kanzure | one of the dependencies mentioned in doc/installing is opencascade | 17:36 |
| kanzure | for 3D visualization and CAD related voodoo magic, | 17:36 |
| kanzure | which is impractical for a package manager really | 17:36 |
| kanzure | if you *do* install it what you'll be able to do is play around with this demo lego connector that loaded up a lego package and randomly figured out how to connect lego assemblies | 17:37 |
| jebba | hell, there's packages of texlive, why not opencascade? | 17:37 |
| kanzure | again, that's not precisely core functionality for "sudo apt-get install dna-synthesizer" | 17:37 |
| kanzure | jebba: oh, there should be opencascade packages floating around somewhere | 17:37 |
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| kanzure | also of pythonocc (swig wrappers on top of opencascade) | 17:38 |
| jebba | I'll take a look at package_spec. I've packaged plenty of RPMS/debs over time | 17:38 |
| kanzure | cool :) | 17:38 |
| kanzure | yeah, so, no existing package manager would seem to be a good fit for this | 17:38 |
| kanzure | on the other hand, all existing package managers seem oddly tailored | 17:38 |
| kanzure | which is probably why a new one always springs up for each new language/linux distribution/"knowledge repo"/etc. | 17:39 |
| kanzure | *deadbeat | 17:46 |
| kanzure | jebba: come to think of it, fenn took great pains to make sure skdb could be installed without opencascade/pythonocc, so skdb-client.py will work without occ/pythonocc, but it will fail because it hasn't been maintained anyway | 17:51 |
| kanzure | if that distinction matters :) | 17:51 |
| kanzure | oops, skdb/clients/skdb-get.py not skdb-client.py http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/clients/skdb-get.py | 17:51 |
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| kanzure | hi alystair | 18:00 |
| alystair | aha | 18:00 |
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| alystair | was wondering where this channel ran off to | 18:00 |
| kanzure | yeah sorry about that :( | 18:00 |
| alystair | what's gitduino | 18:02 |
| alystair | git + arduino? :) | 18:02 |
| alystair | git based revisioning of arduino plans? | 18:02 |
| kanzure | and of other open source hardware projects | 18:03 |
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| kanzure | oh sweet | 18:15 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/09/21/how-to-lucid-dream/ | 18:15 |
| kanzure | "It turns out that eye movement, unlike the rest of the skeletal muscular system, is not inhibited by REM sleep. Subjects could memorize horizontal eye patterns (e.g. left-left-right-right-left-right-left) and repeat the patterns upon becoming lucid, which researchers could observe, all while recording brain activity with an EEG to confirm that the subjects where, in fact, in a dream state." | 18:15 |
| QuantumG | that sounds like a fact made up on the spot | 18:16 |
| kanzure | EEG/EMG can easily grab eye movement data.. or cheap infrared reflectometers that could probably grab eye movement itself (not muscle activity) | 18:17 |
| superkuh | That's an xckd comic. | 18:17 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge | 18:17 |
| kanzure | superkuh: i don't recall it | 18:17 |
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| kanzure | superkuh: yesterday we were talking about using an electrotactile tongue display + openeeg for communication into and out of lucid dreams http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-12.log | 18:17 |
| kanzure | one of my questions was whether or not REM corresponded to actual in-dream eye movements.. it seems that was the question they answered to prove lucid dreaming was real in the first place. | 18:18 |
| QuantumG | the left-left-right-right-left-right-left sounds like http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClassicCheatCode | 18:19 |
| kanzure | someone should pitch lucid dreaming eye tracking at quantified self | 18:20 |
| superkuh | The first text I ever posted to the internet was to alt.dreams.lucid. All my knowledge on that subject comes from a long time ago; I don't trust it. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | you don't trust your knowledge or alt.dreams.lucid? | 18:20 |
| superkuh | Mine. | 18:20 |
| QuantumG | heh, every site says "scientifically published work" and then provide no references | 18:21 |
| kanzure | here's a 2010 paper: http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/ojs/index.php/IJoDR/article/view/606/pdf | 18:22 |
| kanzure | has some good references i guess. | 18:23 |
| superkuh | Neat. Thanks. | 18:23 |
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| QuantumG | ok, random idea for ya: sure, a magic eye movement pattern sounds like a nice way to detect lucid dreaming.. now go one step further and define a technique for outputting text | 18:26 |
| kanzure | eye movement can be used to guide a mouse, pointer, or character in second life | 18:27 |
| JayDugger | Morse code for text? | 18:27 |
| kanzure | dunno if anyone can do morse code in their sleep :) | 18:27 |
| joshcryer | Congrats, you guys just got on the news for the Tuscon thing. | 18:28 |
| joshcryer | :P | 18:28 |
| kanzure | EEG can hardly do typing when you're wake so it's out of the question for sleeping | 18:28 |
| kanzure | tuscon? | 18:28 |
| JayDugger | Does your mother know morse code? | 18:28 |
| joshcryer | s/sc/cs | 18:28 |
| QuantumG | for example, have the subject conjure up a keyboard (we all know what one looks like now) and "type" by eye movements in the air. Regularly typing the word "goofy" to calibrate the position of the keys | 18:28 |
| JayDugger | Link, joshcryer? | 18:28 |
| joshcryer | uh I'd rather google not pick up my joke and make it real | 18:29 |
| QuantumG | the next morning you get the eye movement data and mine it for "goofy" and then try to extract other words. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: lots of statistics could help with that i bet. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | if brainport works while you're sleeping it would be a lot of help.. | 18:29 |
| QuantumG | if you're successful at pulling out whole sentences with minimal error and didn't "cook the data" then you have a nice way to output. | 18:30 |
| QuantumG | brainport is an input device | 18:30 |
| QuantumG | (primarily) | 18:30 |
| kanzure | yes but you could see what character/letter you have typed or selected | 18:30 |
| QuantumG | and if you're receiving stimulus then you're more likely to wake up | 18:30 |
| kanzure | do you lucid dream? | 18:31 |
| QuantumG | the value of the eye movement experiment is that you're producing outputs without receiving inputs | 18:31 |
| QuantumG | thus you're guaranteed that everything is "reflective consciousness" as LaBerge calls it | 18:31 |
| joshcryer | why are we doing this? | 18:32 |
| QuantumG | in your lucid REM state you might actually be creative and smart or something | 18:32 |
| kanzure | i wonder if people with locked-in syndrome have REM | 18:32 |
| QuantumG | me, I expect I'm exactly the same as when I'm drunk | 18:32 |
| joshcryer | I never remember a dream where I am more insightful than not. | 18:32 |
| joshcryer | Usually it's nonsense. | 18:32 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: to be on the internet while dreaming | 18:32 |
| QuantumG | indeed | 18:32 |
| joshcryer | Last night I dreampt I couldn't run. My legs weighed 10 times what they normally could, and I was being chased. | 18:33 |
| QuantumG | I usually wake up from a "funny dream" and think back on the "great joke I came up with" and decide I'm not funny | 18:33 |
| QuantumG | exactly the same as when I'm drunk :) | 18:33 |
| joshcryer | This is ridiculous, I can do a 6 minute mile. | 18:33 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: lucid dreaming isn't the same. | 18:33 |
| QuantumG | lucid dreaming to me is typically of the form "oh my god you're the most boring subconscious in the world.. I'm taking over this dream now" | 18:34 |
| QuantumG | anyway, ya know what I want to figure out? lucid night terrors | 18:35 |
| joshcryer | That's what I had. I mean, I cannot run, therefore I must be dreaming. :) | 18:36 |
| joshcryer | "There exist no evidence for why my legs should weigh 10x what they normally do, therefore this is not real." | 18:36 |
| QuantumG | I get night terrors.. the first few times were seriously frightening. I was sure I was awake and seeing a giant spider. | 18:36 |
| joshcryer | How giant? | 18:36 |
| QuantumG | lately, my brain says "night terror eh? you enjoy that" and all I feel is terror.. and so I just go "what? why the terror? ok, whatever, ARGGH, go back to sleep" | 18:37 |
| QuantumG | dog sized | 18:37 |
| joshcryer | Yeah | 18:38 |
| QuantumG | I also saw a snake or two | 18:38 |
| QuantumG | the problem with night terrors is they're so quick | 18:38 |
| QuantumG | there's no time to do the usual lucid dreaming tricks of reality testing | 18:38 |
| joshcryer | Eh, my dreams are very much not of this reality so I am very rarely tricked by them. | 18:39 |
| joshcryer | The only time is when I find coins in a dream. | 18:39 |
| QuantumG | well, you're supposed to develop your dreams before you try lucid dreaming | 18:39 |
| QuantumG | write a dream journal and suck | 18:40 |
| QuantumG | err, such | 18:40 |
| joshcryer | Takes me like two hours to fall asleep. | 18:40 |
| joshcryer | My dreams can fuck off. | 18:40 |
| QuantumG | if you're not remembering 8+ dreams a night then you're not developed | 18:40 |
| JayDugger | Eight? Good lord. | 18:40 |
| QuantumG | I'm lazy, these days I don't remember 1 | 18:41 |
| JayDugger | I might have that many in a year. | 18:41 |
| joshcryer | I remember one a night these days, right before my damn alarm clock goes off. | 18:41 |
| QuantumG | put a book next to your bed and write down anything when you wake up.. | 18:41 |
| joshcryer | It's actually quite amazing because I'll open my eyes a minute before it goes off. | 18:41 |
| QuantumG | some people totally lose it though.. they start writing a dream journal and quickly discover they are their most creative as soon as they wake up.. | 18:43 |
| QuantumG | never get out of bed, think they're going to make it as a writer, etc. | 18:43 |
| joshcryer | I'm most creative when I'm awake 20+ hours. | 18:43 |
| joshcryer | It's why I have a hard time sleeping. | 18:44 |
| joshcryer | I totally wrote this brillian expose on stupid networking in my head last night. | 18:44 |
| QuantumG | surely that's drunken creativity though | 18:44 |
| joshcryer | I think I might write it out and see what you guys think later on, we'll see. | 18:44 |
| joshcryer | No, it's really pretty ridiculously awesome. | 18:44 |
| kanzure | heh my mom is talking to me about her lucid dreaming | 18:45 |
| kanzure | she's totally into this. | 18:45 |
| gleapsite | Me as well. | 18:45 |
| QuantumG | uh huh. I used to code drunk at vmware. it was great because we had totally automated build-and-test. | 18:45 |
| QuantumG | it's like: breath in, write 100 lines of code, hit build, breath out | 18:46 |
| gleapsite | here's a way to inject your dreams with a sign that makes you realize you're dreaming: http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Lucid-Dream-Machine/ | 18:46 |
| QuantumG | or you can just train yourself, it's not hard | 18:46 |
| joshcryer | Mainly I just use art of memory tricks and just put the best stuff aside for later. | 18:47 |
| JayDugger | By "art of memory" do you mean the particular mnemonics in Francis Yates' book, or some other things: | 18:48 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: what's interesting about my mom as a test subject is that she has an identical twin | 18:53 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, oops, sorry, didn't see your question, I mean the general art of memory. | 18:53 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory | 18:53 |
| JayDugger | Does your aunt have similar lucid dreaming skill? | 18:53 |
| gleapsite | kanzure: does her twin share her enthusiasm? | 18:53 |
| kanzure | i haven't asked her yet | 18:53 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, I followed Harry Lorayne and Jerry Lucas' approach, but it's all pretty much the same. | 18:54 |
| JayDugger | Even if eye-movement during lucid dreaming can't output text, you might at least use it to trigger an automatic record of the act of dreaming. | 18:59 |
| kanzure | Roffwarg, H., Dement, W. C., Muzio, J., & Fisher, C. (1962). Dream imagery: Relationship to rapid eye movements of sleep. Archives of General Psychiatry, 7, 235-238. | 19:04 |
| gleapsite | I hate when papers are publicly available. | 19:06 |
| gleapsite | aren't* | 19:06 |
| kanzure | "paperleaks" may or may not be in the process of getting deployed | 19:06 |
| superkuh | QuantumG: There used to be a LCD glasses kit that would detect REM and flash lights at programmed intervals, pc parallel port. | 19:07 |
| kanzure | "that dreamed movements result in corresponding patterns of muscle twitching" | 19:08 |
| QuantumG | yeah, as I said, simple training will suffice. | 19:09 |
| kanzure | oh cool. someone studied morse code communication. | 19:09 |
| superkuh | Er, s/LCD/LED/ | 19:09 |
| kanzure | but they only communicated their initials? why | 19:10 |
| kanzure | from page 130 http://www.lucidipedia.com/downloads/lucidityinstitute_researchpapers.pdf | 19:11 |
| QuantumG | someone should make a movie about lucid dreaming where the dream sequences are hand animations | 19:11 |
| QuantumG | (cause that's about the level of detail of most people's dreams) | 19:11 |
| JayDugger | Wasn't that done? "A Waking Life" or some such? | 19:13 |
| QuantumG | I dunno what that was about | 19:13 |
| QuantumG | just someone showing off that they can grind painting over film | 19:14 |
| JayDugger | I haven't seen it either. | 19:14 |
| QuantumG | I think I watched it.. I have little memory | 19:14 |
| kanzure | there was there was "to the end of the world" if that counts | 19:14 |
| QuantumG | A Scanner Darkly was better :) | 19:14 |
| kanzure | or "the matrix" | 19:14 |
| kanzure | laberge has coauthored with zimbardo? huh | 19:16 |
| JayDugger | Laberge, S. (1980). Lucid dreaming: An exploratory study of consciousness during sleep. (Ph.D. thesis, Stanford University, 1980), (University Microfilms No. 80-24, 691) | 19:19 |
| JayDugger | That's probably the connection. | 19:19 |
| QuantumG | does "muscle twitching" happen with tranquillizers? | 19:19 |
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| QuantumG | as in, if you get tranqed and try to move do your muscles twitch in a detectable way? | 19:20 |
| QuantumG | I suppose I'm incorrectly assuming the existence of a general anaesthetic that doesn't affect consciousness | 19:22 |
| kanzure | dunno. | 19:30 |
| kanzure | heh laberge studied vEMG or "vaginal electromyography" | 19:31 |
| JayDugger | Go Science! | 19:31 |
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| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. | 19:44 |
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| kanzure | ralith is heating up for a lolcad discussion in #reprap | 20:24 |
| augur | philip glass is the musician of the deep-future post-singularity world. just sayin'. | 21:07 |
| kanzure | http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2011/01/hard-takeoff-hypothesis.html | 21:07 |
| kanzure | augur: philip glass is my homie | 21:07 |
| kanzure | fenn's too apparently. | 21:07 |
| augur | *-qatsi is amazing. | 21:08 |
| augur | or should that be are | 21:08 |
| augur | hmm | 21:08 |
| augur | if *x denotes p0x, p1x, and p2x collectively, is *x a singular or plural noun | 21:09 |
| augur | or mass? | 21:09 |
| augur | surely it should be plural, no? | 21:09 |
| augur | *qatsi ~ koyaanisqatsi, powaqqatsi, and naqoyqatsi | 21:09 |
| augur | so where the latter goes, the former goes | 21:10 |
| augur | so surely it should be *qatsi are amazing | 21:10 |
| kanzure | i only really enjoyed koyaanisqatsi .. the others were less than stellar | 21:11 |
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| augur | bah | 21:12 |
| augur | thats not the question | 21:12 |
| augur | :P | 21:12 |
| augur | is *qatsi singular or plural | 21:13 |
| augur | aha! | 21:14 |
| augur | no | 21:14 |
| augur | *qatsi is singular, and means "some qatsi or other" | 21:15 |
| augur | or "any qatsi" or whatever | 21:15 |
| augur | so {*qatsi} must be the set of all qatsi's, e.g. {koyaanisqatsi, powaqqatsi, naqoyqatsi} | 21:15 |
| augur | and so {*qatsi} is plural | 21:15 |
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| kanzure | gleapsite: http://www.dreamviews.com/f32/dream-glove-communication-95488/ | 21:35 |
| kanzure | "Once this has been completed I will be writing a program (probaby in Java) that will interpret these movements so that it can positively identify individual finger movements despite the sensor noise generated by movement of the hand and/or movement of an adjacent finger" | 21:35 |
| kanzure | haha @ this update: http://www.dreamviews.com/f32/dream-glove-communication-95488/#post1435815 | 21:36 |
| superkuh | NovaDreamer! | 21:36 |
| superkuh | That was the kit. | 21:36 |
| jrayhawk | supposedly baraka was better | 21:36 |
| kanzure | baraka was not better | 21:37 |
| jrayhawk | noted | 21:37 |
| superkuh | http://www.lucidity.com/novadreamer.html | 21:37 |
| kanzure | #8 is funny too.. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | "Waiting for the rest of the parts in the mail. In the meantime I'm training myself to tap out hello world with my index and middle fingers. It's quite alot of taps and shorthand may prove useful in the future." | 21:37 |
| kanzure | H - r r r r | 21:37 |
| kanzure | E - r | 21:37 |
| kanzure | L - r l r r | 21:37 |
| kanzure | L - r l r r | 21:37 |
| kanzure | O - l l l | 21:37 |
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| kanzure | " | 21:40 |
| kanzure | There has been at least one experiment in which a person was hypnotized to talk in their sleep, and narrated the events of their dreams to a researcher. The case that I know of was a person with a history of talking in his sleep, though. Still, it merits a closer investigation. | 21:40 |
| kanzure | ha | 21:40 |
| kanzure | multi-player dream games http://www.dreaminglucid.com/issues/LDE%2054.pdf | 21:40 |
| kanzure | eh that article was lame. | 21:42 |
| kanzure | was this it? http://xkcd.com/269/ | 21:42 |
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| superkuh | Yes. | 21:52 |
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| kanzure | lol everyone is going to be so pissed if i convert the $80k gada prize into an $80k "here, just go do this" fund | 22:27 |
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| QuantumG | it'd be interesting to see an organization that did do that though | 22:31 |
| kanzure | right.. especially for open sources tuff. | 22:32 |
| kanzure | *stuff | 22:32 |
| kanzure | for some reason reprap people seem to get a lot of stuff done for low cash | 22:32 |
| QuantumG | "we thought technology X is being ignored, so we came up with a direction we think it should be going in and threw some money at it and look!" | 22:32 |
| QuantumG | one of the guys in the local hackerspace was just mentioning that he's building a Mendel | 22:33 |
| QuantumG | there's already 3 in the hackerspace | 22:33 |
| kanzure | on the other hand.. i do have personal incentive to make the $80k fundraising thing work, because it shows i'm able to raise more money | 22:33 |
| QuantumG | I felt like saying "why don't you innovate already?" | 22:33 |
| kanzure | but that's at the risk of perpetuating a possibly unstable prize structure thing for reprap stuff | 22:33 |
| QuantumG | just went into my local welding shop and asked them if they had any pulse TIGs | 22:36 |
| QuantumG | guy shows me one.. rants about it for about 30 seconds. I point at the price tag that says $2600 and say "is that for this one?" and he's like, no, and shows me the price tag for the pulse TIG: $5100 | 22:37 |
| QuantumG | thanks for that. A regular TIG is about $569. I wonder what makes pulse TIG so different. | 22:38 |
| QuantumG | or maybe that place is just expensive | 22:40 |
| QuantumG | Tig200PAc/Dc 200 Amp Tig Pulse & MMA Inverter Welder $1,695 | 22:40 |
| QuantumG | still too rich for my blood, but maybe it'll have good resale value | 22:41 |
| QuantumG | http://www.weldersdirect.com.au/product/506/200_AMP_PULSE_DC_TIG_WELDER_WITH_STICK_CAPABILITY $500 | 22:56 |
| QuantumG | that's more like it | 22:59 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jan 14 00:00:04 2011 | ||
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