| --- Log opened Sat Feb 12 00:00:10 2011 | ||
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| * bkero wonders if he can deduct taxes for open source work | 01:36 | |
| Technicus | bkero: You might as well try. | 01:37 |
|---|---|---|
| Technicus | Perhaps if you can verify that you contributed your work to a non profit organization it could be ligitamized. | 01:38 |
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| Lukas_ | Good morning | 04:19 |
| Utopiah | "Three-dimensional printing from digital designs will transform manufacturing and allow more people to start making things " http://www.economist.com/node/18114221?story_id=18114221 | 04:20 |
| Lukas_ | Looks like they are finally catching on | 04:29 |
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| Lukas_ | Good morning ThomaEgi | 06:35 |
| ThomasEgi | mornin | 06:46 |
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| uniqanomaly | http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/arts/10innovative.html?_r=3&hpw | 08:25 |
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| kanzure | "Ok, so i bought one of the datashields, and it should certainly come in handy. But, within the diybio community there is a need/push to get more open source hardware and tools. The data shield is an excellent idea for DIYscience, but for some people a more accurate RTC clock will probably be needed. Hence this project." http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=102020 | 08:46 |
| kanzure | manchester digital lab is starting up a diybio-manchester group (diybiomcr) http://madlab.org.uk/ | 08:47 |
| kanzure | e. chromi http://vimeo.com/19759432 | 08:47 |
| kanzure | cathal's ignite talk slides http://bit.ly/id6_CathalGarvey_slides | 08:48 |
| kanzure | futurelabcamp hackathon nyc april 1-3rd http://futurelabcamp.com/ | 08:49 |
| kanzure | this is fascinating.. i heard about "dna sprays" for catching perpetrators but didn't know they'd actually go through with it | 08:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.jantinewijnja.nl/2011/02/11/dna-spray-installed-in-my-neigborhood-amsterdam-west/ | 08:56 |
| uniqanomaly | http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW?1.0 | 08:57 |
| kanzure | uniqanomaly: i "signed" it | 08:57 |
| kanzure | (but i don't know why) | 08:57 |
| kanzure | look at the bottom | 08:57 |
| uniqanomaly | oh ok | 08:57 |
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| jebba | kanzure, if you're serious about it, think it can be done for that, and can line it up, go for it and I'll come through. But if it was more of a brainstorm, then maybe something else would be better to focus on. | 09:09 |
| kanzure | yes i'm serious :) | 09:10 |
| kanzure | so i'll line stuff up and ping you when that's ready i guess | 09:10 |
| kanzure | "science papers should be like open source software" http://lemire.me/blog/archives/2011/02/11/taking-scientific-publishing-to-the-next-level/ | 09:27 |
| kanzure | cool box2d got a javascript port http://code.google.com/p/box2dweb/ | 09:28 |
| JayDugger | I wonder if that DNA spray will have much effect on crime rates or on successful prosecutions. | 09:30 |
| JayDugger | jebba, your comment at 1110 had the context of the AFM / skdb discussions from http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-02-11.log? | 09:35 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: not everyone has your same timezone.. there's no 11:10 | 09:35 |
| kanzure | oh you mean 22:10 | 09:36 |
| kanzure | but no, he wasn't talking about AFM at that point | 09:36 |
| JayDugger | Fair enough. | 09:38 |
| JayDugger | Do there now exist any tutorials for writing skdb packages? | 09:38 |
| kanzure | there is one that i wrote back in 2009 on my hdd | 09:39 |
| kanzure | but i'm hesitan to upload it while the package manager is so useless | 09:39 |
| kanzure | *hesitant | 09:39 |
| JayDugger | I admit a leading question. | 09:39 |
| JayDugger | Building a book scanner lies at the top of my project stack. | 09:40 |
| JayDugger | It occurs to me that writing an skdb package in the course of its construction would help advance skdb's usefulness. | 09:40 |
| kanzure | right | 09:40 |
| kanzure | have you seen the dremelfuge, screw, or lego packages yet? | 09:41 |
| kanzure | for the time being skdb-get.py just grabs them from http://diyhpl.us/cgit/ | 09:41 |
| JayDugger | Not yet. Work & local weather has somewhat sucked these last two weeks. | 09:41 |
| JayDugger | You suggest I study those packages, compare them with the spec, and use them as templates for a bookscanner package? | 09:43 |
| kanzure | yeah if you're going to make a package. | 10:07 |
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| kanzure | reprap stats http://blog.erikdebruijn.nl/archives/145-Self-replicating-devices-the-statistics.html | 10:28 |
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| jebba | kanzure, i didnt check over that link thoroughly, but i think that's the same guy that wrote a master's thesis about this, which is worth reading | 11:00 |
| jebba | ya, same guy. The PDF name (i have printout here): "On the Viability of the Open Source Development model for the design of physical objects" | 11:01 |
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| kanzure | yep, i read erik's thesis | 11:08 |
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| kanzure | hi splicer_ | 11:29 |
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| kanzure | hi biotiny | 12:00 |
| biotiny | hello kanzure | 12:01 |
| kanzure | what's up? biotiny | 12:35 |
| splicer_ | hi kanzure | 12:40 |
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| kanzure | does anyone remember the link to something abuot open science and someone promoting the idea of also publishing your code? | 12:43 |
| Utopiah | http://stanford.edu/~vcs/Talks.html ? | 12:47 |
| uniqanomaly | https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2011-02-03-sony.markdown this is funny | 12:48 |
| kanzure | uniqanomaly: you're right, it is funny | 13:13 |
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| fenn | new legal defense strategy, increase the number of urls to the point where the message size is so large it bounces from any sane email inbox | 13:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: are you following the om thread? | 13:29 |
| kanzure | windell's email is something i can easily make a response to (about gcode being allowed/not) | 13:29 |
| kanzure | nvm the issues being brought up aren't interesting enough to bug you to look at it yet | 13:32 |
| fenn | i didnt like that wording in the oshw document anyway (analogous to compiled computer code) | 13:38 |
| fenn | i will probably just link to it instead of spelling everything out | 13:39 |
| kanzure | i wonder if ayah will spam out the package specification document like her oshw definition document | 13:40 |
| fenn | ayah? | 13:41 |
| fenn | oh nice, a new yaml validator | 13:43 |
| kanzure | from eyebeam/littlebits.. she's the one getting phillip torrone, limor fried, makezine, etc. to post shitloads of links to the document. | 13:43 |
| kanzure | she and alicia gibbs (buglabs) put on openhardwaresummit.org | 13:43 |
| kanzure | http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/open-hardware-definition-1-0-released.html | 13:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2011/02/10/open-hardware-definition-1-0-released/ | 13:44 |
| kanzure | http://arduino.cc/blog/2011/02/10/open-source-hardware-definition-v-1-0-released/ | 13:44 |
| kanzure | http://community.buglabs.net/agibb/posts/221-Open-Hardware-Definition-1- | 13:44 |
| kanzure | http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/02/11/009206/Open-Source-Hardware-Hits-10? | 13:44 |
| fenn | says something about version 1.1 released already? | 13:57 |
| fenn | oh, the free culture definition, nm | 13:58 |
| kanzure | dunno if i told you but i'm going to be in your area on march 1 for a 'future of open source hardware' workshop i was invited to at institute for the future | 14:01 |
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| kanzure | wow sourceforge.net no longer looks like spam | 14:17 |
| jebba | oh my. It's like a relief just washed over me looking at it. | 14:19 |
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| fenn | looks like a domain squatter page to me | 14:27 |
| kanzure | compared to? http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080312003027/http://sourceforge.net/ | 14:35 |
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| fenn | yeah, old page had ads but the content was better | 14:43 |
| fenn | new page is just a bunch of random project names with blue buttons, and a search box | 14:43 |
| fenn | but whatever, nobody uses sf anymore | 14:44 |
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| kanzure | stalk: Evan T. Jones <evan_t_jones@mac.com> | 14:54 |
| kanzure | he claims to have a pyopenscad library.. just asked him what it actually does | 14:54 |
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| fenn | another (?) pyopenscad.py http://www.thingiverse.com/download:3976 | 15:05 |
| fenn | did i mention i hate code generators | 15:05 |
| kanzure | yeah.. this is dumb | 15:05 |
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| kanzure | natasha is trying to edit http://humanityplus.org/parsons through frontpage 5 | 15:07 |
| kanzure | this is a disaster | 15:07 |
| kanzure | (it's a wordpress installation) | 15:08 |
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| fenn | it's too bad LSD doesn't actually increase neural plasticity | 15:14 |
| fenn | otherwise you better believe i'd be dumping it in the water supply | 15:15 |
| kanzure | she just needs to read up on modern web design.. | 15:15 |
| fenn | i'm still amazed by how little futurist thinking has changed since the 1980's | 15:18 |
| fenn | like wow they actually got it right the first time? | 15:18 |
| fenn | maybe it's just selection bias, i only remember the things that seem plausible | 15:19 |
| mjr | fenn, hey, you can still do more experiments to doublecheck. Dump away! | 15:19 |
| kanzure | god 17min on the phone to replace elements in a css file for her | 15:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: i don't think they got it right.. i mean, anyone can make up fantastical technologies that fall within the realm of physical possibility | 15:30 |
| kanzure | they told you about smartphones but then totally missed out on implementing them and the 2006/2007 boom | 15:31 |
| kanzure | (and still don't really know about it) | 15:31 |
| splicer_ | didn't futurism use to be about space and robots... and now it's about biotech? | 15:32 |
| kanzure | the "futurists from the 90s" didn't really focus on biotech | 15:33 |
| kanzure | there's a huge disconnect between them and, say, synthetic biology | 15:33 |
| splicer_ | yes | 15:33 |
| kanzure | open source was happening while extropy institute and foresight institute were at their prime, | 15:34 |
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| kanzure | but again they missed out on that boom | 15:34 |
| kanzure | (even though some of the people at the edges were peripherally involved) | 15:34 |
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| kanzure | and most of them are missing out on garage biology.. biocurious is an anomaly because of joseph jackson's ties with futurists | 15:38 |
| fenn | hum, i was just reading "the peace war" by vernor vinge which has a lot of open sourcy underground software development, and biotech | 15:44 |
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| fenn | vinge is an EE so he explained more about the progress of electronics, internet, and intelligence augmentation | 15:48 |
| fenn | the connotation was that the biotech guys could accomplish just as much if we didn't lock them all up first | 15:49 |
| kanzure | i only sent that list of projects/pricetags to goertzel and patri, should i bother sending it to anyone else? it's really just a draft | 15:50 |
| fenn | it's not a very complete draft | 15:51 |
| kanzure | no | 15:51 |
| fenn | i think it's worth keeping a file of 'things to fund' though | 15:51 |
| kanzure | there is an advantage to sending things out sooner rather than later, though | 15:51 |
| fenn | o rly | 15:51 |
| fenn | not in marketing/self promotion | 15:52 |
| fenn | unless you have a real deadline | 15:52 |
| fenn | but what do i know | 15:52 |
| kanzure | no not like that.. like sending this to natasha, vassar, todd | 15:52 |
| kanzure | "unofficially" "for review" | 15:53 |
| fenn | i remember thinking it was missing a lot | 16:01 |
| kanzure | it is | 16:01 |
| kanzure | feel free to list out more projects that need to happen | 16:01 |
| kanzure | i didn't write down the myostatin-related-stuff for instance | 16:01 |
| fenn | what was the url again? | 16:02 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html | 16:02 |
| kanzure | if you want to edit it: | 16:03 |
| kanzure | https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dTnxi08R4HxuAr2fI2_NG-sAmm0nBpEUXNt7pi089FU/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPvxtL8L | 16:03 |
| fenn | one thing that would be really useful is a centralized database of nootropics, their purported effects and side effects, and various standardized tests of people on/off the drug | 16:04 |
| kanzure | the numbers are stupid and can be removed/ignore | 16:04 |
| kanzure | *ignored | 16:04 |
| fenn | for example http://nootropicsdb.com haha | 16:04 |
| fenn | cept not a blog | 16:04 |
| kanzure | i'm tempted to rewrite this document in yaml | 16:06 |
| kanzure | is a good use case | 16:06 |
| kanzure | especially with attributes like timeline, cost range, man hours, tags, description, title, "date most effective by", and dependencies | 16:07 |
| fenn | yeah, a planning document for h+ | 16:08 |
| kanzure | "buy an executive director" | 16:08 |
| kanzure | "go on a roadtrip" | 16:08 |
| fenn | you could even put pretty web 2.0 skin on each entry | 16:08 |
| kanzure | "hold more conferences with increasingly irrelevant content" | 16:09 |
| fenn | "publish more articles with the same content" | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "(be sure to forget to upload the videos)" | 16:09 |
| fenn | no seriously, why not decompose the original hplus roadmap into achievable milestones like this? | 16:09 |
| kanzure | yeah i agree | 16:09 |
| kanzure | i proposed that to h+ btw, "to redo the transhumanist technical roadmap in a more professional manner" | 16:10 |
| kanzure | that was what i was going to be doing january but got caught up with fixing hplusmagazine | 16:10 |
| fenn | redo what? | 16:10 |
| kanzure | well if you recall that awful mediawiki page that hplusroadmap was based on | 16:10 |
| kanzure | "the transhumanist technical roadmap" | 16:10 |
| fenn | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap ? | 16:10 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:11 |
| fenn | why is your mediawiki still dead? | 16:11 |
| kanzure | i'm making progress.. i got an external hdd enclosure to do some data recovery | 16:11 |
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| kanzure | jmil: hey, if you were to get money for open source tissue printing, how much would you need and what for | 16:12 |
| fenn | speaking of HDD's, please mail me tub's hard drive | 16:13 |
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| kanzure | i knoooow | 16:13 |
| jmil | kanzure: well, the tissue printing hardware is orders of magnitude less expensive than the cell culture... | 16:13 |
| jmil | so it depends on the end goal of the grant call | 16:13 |
| kanzure | $20k, $80k, $300k ? | 16:13 |
| kanzure | haha no that's not how this works | 16:13 |
| jmil | if it's just to demonstrate feasibility in vitro then it's a lot less than if you need evidence of in vivo organ replacement | 16:14 |
| kanzure | you tell me what amazing things you need to do and then tell me how much it would cost | 16:14 |
| jmil | i would need tissue printers. $20k would get you a sterile reprap and sterile hepa-filtered air flow setup for tissue fabrication | 16:15 |
| jmil | then you need to make the material to encapsulate cells in | 16:15 |
| jmil | we currently have the least expensive hydrogel material, which is ~$5/gram | 16:15 |
| jmil | which can allow you to make degradable tissue for ~$50/mL | 16:16 |
| jmil | so it depends on your target tissue volume | 16:16 |
| jmil | then you have to do the tissue culture. The burn rate is typically $1,000 per week or so for consumables | 16:16 |
| kanzure | i'm talking more in terms of "having an open, standard platform and improving on it" | 16:16 |
| jmil | then you also have personnel costs. | 16:16 |
| jmil | kanzure: we already have that with reprap =] | 16:17 |
| kanzure | not really, your work is closed source at the moment | 16:17 |
| kanzure | and once you publish it, iirc, you really just have an extruder? | 16:17 |
| kanzure | there's lots of stuff to be done with some controllers, feedback, etc. | 16:18 |
| jmil | like what? you don't really need feedback IMHO. you have to characterize cell viability soon after encapsulation anyway | 16:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: for a revamped roadmap i was thinking of git + latex or some other document compiler | 16:18 |
| jmil | git + latex FTW!!!!!!!! | 16:18 |
| jmil | kanzure: reprap is an open platform. Those skilled in the art should be able to optimize it with current tools, controllers, etc. for things like what high-end tissue fabrication labs are doing simply by watching the posted youtube videos | 16:19 |
| kanzure | jmil: i'm sorry, but schematics, files and documents are always useful | 16:20 |
| kanzure | i am not trying to impose on you | 16:20 |
| jmil | ya i'm just not sure what your end goal is. i'm trying to help... | 16:20 |
| kanzure | standardized tissue printing platform on top of reprap, and throwing money at that sort of project to help that along | 16:21 |
| jmil | as i've said before i really don't see direct cell printing as a viable strategy for human-scale organ replacement | 16:21 |
| kanzure | yeah, probably not | 16:21 |
| kanzure | but that's not my goal here really. | 16:21 |
| jmil | kanzure: so then why do you want to fund that if it's a losing strategy? | 16:21 |
| kanzure | tissue engineering isn't just about organ replacement | 16:21 |
| jmil | ok, now we're getting somewhere | 16:21 |
| jmil | so what's a simple, clear, focused target then? | 16:22 |
| kanzure | organ replacement is nice but i dunno why you keep bringing it up.. unless you have some ideas on the cooker? :) | 16:22 |
| jmil | 3D tissue culture, probably | 16:22 |
| jmil | reprap for 3D tissue culture is a good idea | 16:22 |
| jmil | but the other thing is a lot of the best materials people use for tissue culture are patented. so you can't really make those open source | 16:23 |
| jmil | the gel carriers that encapsulate the cells | 16:23 |
| kanzure | nah we can have that in escrow in a separate country | 16:23 |
| jmil | lol | 16:23 |
| jmil | what is your definition of "open source tissue printing" *exactly*? | 16:24 |
| kanzure | tissueprinter.git with schematics, documentation, blueprints, cad files, controller code, relevant lab protocols | 16:24 |
| kanzure | what milestones do you think would be useful to reach? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | you know.. in your professional opinion :p | 16:25 |
| jmil | i mean your definition of the final engineered construct | 16:26 |
| jmil | it would have specific cell types deposited in specific locations? | 16:26 |
| jmil | at some predetermined depositing resolution | 16:26 |
| jmil | then you have to look at cell viability with some predetermined confidence interval, say 90% | 16:27 |
| jmil | then you have to look at cell density. Because 1 million cells/mL is technically 3D tissue culture but it's not really dense enough cells for anything useful or interesting | 16:27 |
| jmil | then you have to include a whole tissue culture setup with flow perfusion to keep the cells alive | 16:28 |
| jmil | a tissue printer without instructions and protocols for keeping cells alive is essentially worthless | 16:28 |
| jmil | and that will vary for each cell type, matrix type, and cell density probably | 16:29 |
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| kanzure | specific deposition plus things like inducing stem cell differentiation in particular locations | 16:29 |
| jmil | ya that's pretty standard fare | 16:30 |
| jmil | kanzure: i found the link i was looking for. This one outlines the challenge very very well: http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/rfa-files/RFA-HL-11-025.html | 16:36 |
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| fenn | the challenge is wading through all that red tape | 17:01 |
| fenn | jmil: why do you think printing is not a viable route to human organ implantation? | 17:02 |
| fenn | i don't see why it would be useful otherwise | 17:03 |
| fenn | reprap wiki is 2.6GB? wtf | 17:06 |
| kanzure | there's lots of files.. | 17:06 |
| kanzure | people use reprap.org mediawiki instead of code repos | 17:06 |
| kanzure | reprap.org is really really itching to switch to gitduino but i've been lame with doing it in a timely manner | 17:07 |
| jmil | fenn: tissue density is hundreds of millions of cells per mL | 17:25 |
| jmil | tissue printers do 1 layer at a time | 17:25 |
| jmil | the layers are 10 µm or so | 17:25 |
| jmil | by the time you do the 20,000 layers to make the 1.5 L that is a human liver... | 17:25 |
| jmil | the first 10-15,000 layers will probably be dead | 17:26 |
| kanzure | stem cell differentiation seems to be a better strategy for growing a liver | 17:26 |
| jmil | layer-by-layer is not the way to go IMHO. there are significant optimizations to be had, and they might get there eventually, but i think we will beat them | 17:26 |
| fenn | first of all, why can't you parallelize the task | 17:26 |
| fenn | secondly, why does the layer height have to be so small? | 17:26 |
| jmil | kanzure: technically it is the only way as hepatocytes have never been grown up outside the body | 17:27 |
| jmil | fenn: dunno, we don't try to do it. all i can tell you is it's been done more than 10 years ago and there's been essentially no progress since then | 17:27 |
| fenn | also i read something about infusing a collagen pig liver "husk" with human liver cells, and it was a viable liver | 17:27 |
| jmil | for 6 hours | 17:27 |
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| jmil | fenn: there's definitely room for improvement in this area. we need more people outside the field to start helping with progress. it seems like the industry is really stagnating | 17:33 |
| fenn | i didnt know there was an industry | 17:34 |
| jmil | it's all private right now, but there's a lot of VC funding invested at the moment. not a lot or progress though. | 17:35 |
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| kanzure | ian is doing https://github.com/kevinmehall/pyscad | 18:26 |
| kanzure | "The basic idea is that we're using ctypes to directly modify the abstract syntax tree of OpenSCAD, allowing full python integration at a fairly low-level." | 18:26 |
| kanzure | meh | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | the dna spray thing just seems dirty in a way | 20:43 |
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| kanzure | huh i don't even remember this | 21:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.biopunk.org/the-biopunk-biogear-logo-t596.html | 21:31 |
| kanzure | oh. because it was posted today. | 21:32 |
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| uniqanomaly_ | http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/7/7/acetaminophen-and-the-war-on-drugs.html insane | 22:14 |
| uniqanomaly_ | but nothing new | 22:20 |
| uniqanomaly_ | http://manu.sporny.org/2011/public-domain-genome/ ;] | 22:20 |
| uniqanomaly_ | + https://github.com/msporny/dna/pull/1 ;) | 22:20 |
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| jmil | uniqanomaly_: omg, someone just forked that repo... | 22:29 |
| uniqanomaly_ | also did pull request | 22:34 |
| uniqanomaly_ | Commit: Stimulating effect of caffeine increased by 5%. | 22:34 |
| uniqanomaly_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0AQ5TjsEIM&feature=feedu nice one | 22:42 |
| uniqanomaly_ | "Weiner Calls Out GOP For Violating Their Own Rules" | 22:43 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i'm on 30min and they don't fucking understand what guy is talking about | 22:43 |
| uniqanomaly_ | ... mumbling ... fucking .... mumbling ... meritocracy ... mumbling | 22:47 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Feb 13 00:00:10 2011 | ||
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