| --- Log opened Thu Nov 03 00:00:25 2011 | ||
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| eudoxia | kanzure, can you link me to those transcripts you posted the other day? | 14:11 |
|---|---|---|
| eudoxia | i think it was during singularity summit | 14:12 |
| eudoxia | yeah i'm pretty sure | 14:12 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/ | 14:12 |
| kanzure | git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git | 14:12 |
| eudoxia | thank you | 14:13 |
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| antipragmatist | hi guys | 16:04 |
| antipragmatist | hi kanzure | 16:05 |
| kanzure | hi | 16:05 |
| antipragmatist | still reading the docks and thinkng about it | 16:05 |
| antipragmatist | have you created the next big thing yet? | 16:05 |
| antipragmatist | a lab like yours will cost meabout $10K? | 16:07 |
| antipragmatist | any nanotecgh guys here | 16:08 |
| antipragmatist | any nanotech guys here? If so what are your thoughts on diamondoid process? | 16:09 |
| kanzure | you have to sit and wait, not everyone is online simultaneously | 16:11 |
| Stee| | I'm (sort of) nanotech, but not diamondoid stuff | 16:12 |
| Stee| | not quite that scale :) | 16:12 |
| Stee| | the setup in my lab ran about 70k I think | 16:12 |
| antipragmatist | oh wow... I that is almost all the liquid cash i have | 16:14 |
| Stee| | uh | 16:14 |
| Stee| | notably | 16:14 |
| Stee| | this was paid for by a giant goddamn university | 16:14 |
| Stee| | and it's a tiny part of the nano/micro process | 16:14 |
| Stee| | this isn't diamondoid or anything useful like that | 16:14 |
| Stee| | on the other hand, our stages have 2nm noise detection | 16:15 |
| antipragmatist | hehehehe, wow, im trying to do it self... ogonna build everything myself | 16:15 |
| antipragmatist | nice.... can you use a vibration detector and add that noise into scanning current to compensate? | 16:16 |
| antipragmatist | vibration------>> signal | 16:17 |
| Stee| | eh | 16:18 |
| antipragmatist | then add that to your scanner signal | 16:18 |
| antipragmatist | you would not need any compensators? | 16:18 |
| Stee| | Ehhhh | 16:18 |
| Stee| | a) that's not really how control compensation works | 16:18 |
| antipragmatist | the noise and vibration wouod be vactored in | 16:18 |
| Stee| | b) we don't actually need to have movement at that scale | 16:18 |
| Stee| | within 50nm is more than enough usually | 16:18 |
| antipragmatist | i see? | 16:19 |
| antipragmatist | i see. | 16:19 |
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| antipragmatist | for coarse position i think about preset. | 16:21 |
| antipragmatist | for fine i use micromwter screws | 16:21 |
| Stee| | heh | 16:21 |
| Stee| | I actually have access to IP on actuators not available to market yet, but my advisor would kill me if I shared them :) | 16:22 |
| Stee| | probably will see them in a year or so on the market | 16:22 |
| antipragmatist | please? | 16:22 |
| Stee| | you can't build them since I doubt you have the fab, and you can't buy them, and I respect my advisor's wishes :P | 16:22 |
| antipragmatist | i was thinking about linear actuators for final device | 16:22 |
| Stee| | what are you trying to build? | 16:22 |
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| antipragmatist | first simple stm then a diamondoid | 16:23 |
| Stee| | what's your background? | 16:23 |
| Stee| | or academic knowledge in general | 16:23 |
| antipragmatist | softwareengineer, electronics hobbiests | 16:24 |
| antipragmatist | hobbyist | 16:24 |
| antipragmatist | a linearactua tor would beidealic for speed | 16:25 |
| Stee| | eh | 16:29 |
| Stee| | do you have a laid out plan on how to get to actual largescale diamondoid mechanosynthesis? | 16:29 |
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| kanzure | Stee|: there's not much.. | 16:32 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt | 16:32 |
| Stee| | yeah, I figured not | 16:32 |
| Stee| | but really, dude's overly gung ho | 16:33 |
| kanzure | who cares.. redirect him to something where he'd be useful | 16:33 |
| kanzure | like open source software for microfluidics maybe :3 | 16:33 |
| Stee| | when I finish my thesis I won't share my paper for free, but I'll give you guys my mathematical model, annotated | 16:33 |
| Stee| | with full notes on where improvement might be denoted | 16:33 |
| Stee| | maybe not the best for sub 100nm scale, but it's a fantastic fab mechanism for scales between 100nm and 50um | 16:35 |
| Stee| | kanzure, where's uv gun on your ultimate fab lab list? | 16:38 |
| kanzure | :) that was written by someone else for make magazine i think | 16:45 |
| Stee| | ah | 16:47 |
| Stee| | I think I figured out a way to retrofit a reprap for stereolithographic layerless printing | 16:47 |
| Stee| | I'll investigate when I have a job (and money) | 16:48 |
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| Stee| | also, kanz, fluidics software is nasty | 16:51 |
| kanzure | yep | 16:51 |
| kanzure | i just want something that will spit out a design in svg | 16:51 |
| Stee| | for what? | 16:51 |
| antipragmatist | well, eventally i will create a multi positning platform for diamondoid assembky | 16:51 |
| Stee| | a microfluidic channel? | 16:51 |
| kanzure | Stee|: for large-scale fluidic designs yes | 16:51 |
| Stee| | eg? | 16:51 |
| kanzure | mixers, interfaces, valves, whatever | 16:51 |
| Stee| | hm | 16:52 |
| kanzure | there was some code in skdb.git for this a while back | 16:52 |
| kanzure | but importing pythonocc for svg/microfluidics is retarded | 16:53 |
| kanzure | also, building a cheapo syringe pump should be doable | 16:53 |
| antipragmatist | but first, i will create a simo.e dvi e and go ore comp.ex fro there | 16:53 |
| antipragmatist | hehehe,this ones deaign he does his coarse stm positioning by hand...is that insaneor what | 17:17 |
| antipragmatist | thatsounfs like a crackpot design | 17:18 |
| antipragmatist | *sounds | 17:18 |
| antipragmatist | nm positioning eye! | 17:19 |
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| antipragmatist | is that not a funny!!! | 17:19 |
| eudoxia | hey antipragmatist, i've been reading your posts on the logs | 17:19 |
| eudoxia | are you trying to build a scanning tunelling microscope? | 17:19 |
| antipragmatist | yes, i am researching now though trying to learn from other designd | 17:20 |
| eudoxia | i'm not sure an STM would work on diamond | 17:20 |
| eudoxia | Steel i need your professional opinion here | 17:20 |
| antipragmatist | true, diamond uses afm or similar | 17:21 |
| antipragmatist | but before i build afm i build stm | 17:21 |
| eudoxia | STM works on silicon whose crystalline structure is analogous to diamond | 17:22 |
| antipragmatist | yet meant afm? | 17:22 |
| eudoxia | Silicon is easier to prepare and cheaper than diamond | 17:22 |
| eudoxia | No, STM | 17:22 |
| antipragmatist | * you | 17:22 |
| antipragmatist | ok. | 17:22 |
| eudoxia | silicon is conducting enough for STM to work | 17:22 |
| antipragmatist | i can afm anything though that is next step | 17:23 |
| eudoxia | yes | 17:23 |
| antipragmatist | i chose stm for first project becuase it seems easier | 17:23 |
| eudoxia | although with AFM you can't really use electric effects that may be useful | 17:24 |
| antipragmatist | i dont want to get frustratedwith afm | 17:24 |
| eudoxia | an interesting thing to do would be attempt to replicate Zyvex's patterned atomic layer epitaxy, using the STM to remove Hydrogen from a Silicon surface, then using silylane gas to grow crystal on the depassivated area | 17:25 |
| antipragmatist | well, eventualineed to divise a way topick up and/or deposit atoms | 17:25 |
| antipragmatist | yes, that is how diamond works from what i read | 17:26 |
| eudoxia | silylene* | 17:26 |
| antipragmatist | but that technique seems too cumbersome for precision nanobots | 17:26 |
| eudoxia | i wouldn't be so sure | 17:26 |
| eudoxia | i've been thinking it may be a plausible alternative to mechanosynthesis | 17:27 |
| eudoxia | the Minimal Toolset for Positional Diamond Mechanosynthesis requires nine tooltips to self-replicate, and about four of those are required for the mechanosynthesis | 17:27 |
| antipragmatist | mechnosys uses deposition of gas too | 17:27 |
| eudoxia | the solution to the problem of scaling the process up to macroscale products is paralellization -- having a billion tips working in parallel | 17:27 |
| eudoxia | but this doesn't scale up well when you need to paralellize nine different tooltips... | 17:28 |
| eudoxia | mechanosynthesis uses mechanical deposition of the carbon | 17:28 |
| eudoxia | i haven't read anything about gas-based mechanosynthesis | 17:28 |
| antipragmatist | exponentiation must be done some how | 17:28 |
| eudoxia | it's sort of breaks the whole point | 17:28 |
| eudoxia | i think Zyvex's method scales better because all you need is a single scanning tunnelling microscope tip, not nine different ones, and the tip geometry doesn't even have to be known | 17:29 |
| antipragmatist | url? | 17:29 |
| eudoxia | i also don't know how exactly you'd remove a molecular machine part from a diamond surface after making it with mechanosynthesis | 17:29 |
| eudoxia | https://apmc.zyvex.com/ | 17:30 |
| eudoxia | http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/zyvex-atmoically-precise-manufacturing.html | 17:30 |
| antipragmatist | chemical process to detach | 17:30 |
| antipragmatist | thankyou. | 17:30 |
| eudoxia | Zyvex's process specifies that a sacrificial layer of Germanium would be etched away | 17:30 |
| eudoxia | apparently water does this at 90ºC, which is pretty fucking awesome | 17:31 |
| eudoxia | I don't know how chemical separation would work with diamondoid | 17:31 |
| antipragmatist | second | 17:31 |
| antipragmatist | http://www.MolecularAssembler.com/Nanofactory/DMS.htm | 17:34 |
| antipragmatist | had to get url forya | 17:34 |
| antipragmatist | brb | 17:34 |
| eudoxia | i've been there a billion times in the past, favorite site etc etc., but it doesn't explain how to detach machine parts. | 17:34 |
| eudoxia | i'm pretty sure | 17:34 |
| eudoxia | you can use mechanosynthesis to pattern surfaces vertically | 17:35 |
| eudoxia | but for detaching, you'd have to manually use the Ge tooltips to build a sacrificial layer of Germanium | 17:35 |
| eudoxia | a very tall one, at that | 17:35 |
| eudoxia | and all the steps you have to go through are the main reason I'm starting to prefer patterned atomic layer epitaxy | 17:36 |
| eudoxia | may Merkle have mercy on my soul | 17:36 |
| antipragmatist | hehehe, that is very funny ... me too though | 17:38 |
| antipragmatist | well, I think we have everything we need to buikd this stuff ... we just need to work the problems | 17:39 |
| antipragmatist | are you a pro and independent amateur like yself? | 17:40 |
| antipragmatist | *myself | 17:40 |
| eudoxia | HS student with an interest in molecular manufacturing | 17:40 |
| antipragmatist | hehehehe that is so wonderful ... | 17:40 |
| antipragmatist | I wishIwasstarti g off young | 17:40 |
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| antipragmatist | ahyouth what a blessing ... hehehe | 17:41 |
| antipragmatist | but i am young at heart :-) | 17:41 |
| antipragmatist | i wish you well and great success on this endeaver and who knows perhaps you'll be the one with thenext great break through | 17:43 |
| antipragmatist | endeavor | 17:43 |
| eudoxia | nothing like wasting one's youth staring at molecules in NanoEngineer :) | 17:43 |
| eudoxia | thank you | 17:43 |
| antipragmatist | hehehe true but later in life you'llbe thankfulyou did | 17:43 |
| eudoxia | perhaps | 17:44 |
| eudoxia | kanzure or the others have already shown the NanoEngineer software right? | 17:44 |
| eudoxia | you'll love it, it's for nanosystems simulation and stuff | 17:44 |
| antipragmatist | its nice but of nosignificant value for real life creation of devices | 17:45 |
| antipragmatist | else we would havethem | 17:45 |
| Stee| | if you're doing atomic scale mechanosynthesis it is | 17:45 |
| Stee| | we don't have the means to create them, but we have the means to design them | 17:45 |
| Stee| | eudoxia, I honestly haven't looked much at afm/stm stuff much--been poking around a couple magnitudes higher | 17:45 |
| eudoxia | it would be better if you could simulate the tooltips from within the software | 17:46 |
| antipragmatist | that would be nice | 17:46 |
| eudoxia | if it came bundled with a few molecular dynamics and ab-initio models it would be perfect | 17:46 |
| antipragmatist | the tooltip is going to be difsficult problem towork | 17:46 |
| antipragmatist | firefly does abnito i think | 17:47 |
| Stee| | eudoxia: I may do some annotation on my printing work once I finish, but I'll probably primarily switch over to trying to understand various non-invasive BCI more | 17:47 |
| Stee| | and policy issues | 17:47 |
| antipragmatist | ab-inito | 17:47 |
| Stee| | as those interst me more | 17:47 |
| Stee| | *interest | 17:48 |
| eudoxia | the reasons i want ab-initio for nanoengineer are essentially: 1) too stupid to know how to use actual ab-initio software 2) i want to see if mechanosynthesis can be extended to the rest of the upper-right corner of the periodic table | 17:48 |
| Stee| | maybe some layerless freeform manufacturing | 17:48 |
| antipragmatist | well, im off for a bit ... chat with you guys later | 17:49 |
| antipragmatist | bye ye | 17:49 |
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| kanzure | bleh thsi guy again http://www.reddit.com/user/reasonattlm | 22:02 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure if he's changed his idea or not | 22:02 |
| kanzure | but he claims that he's now doing "lab protocols" | 22:02 |
| kanzure | but they are still untested | 22:02 |
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| Stee| | what protocols? | 23:23 |
| --- Log closed Fri Nov 04 00:00:26 2011 | ||
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