| --- Log opened Tue Dec 27 00:00:47 2011 | ||
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| sylph_mako | I'm not sure whether I'm a singularitarian. Part of the definition of it is "that deliberate action ought to be taken to ensure that the Singularity benefits humans." | 02:24 |
|---|---|---|
| sylph_mako | ... I can't help but feel that if humans exist alongside that which long ago transcended being human as those very humans would aspire to do.... The humans have been rendered irrelevant and should basically step out of the way. | 02:25 |
| sylph_mako | In the scheme of things, on the scheme of 2000AD to 3000AD life even, it just doesn't seem they'll be worth much by the end, if things go well. | 02:27 |
| sylph_mako | So no, I wont care to preserve them, whether I've transcended or not. It's just not for humans at that stage. | 02:30 |
| sylph_mako | Bah. I've too much to say. I'll save it for the blog. | 02:30 |
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| strangewarp | sylph_mako: Future beings may weigh the motivations of humanlike intelligences appropriately low compared to any hyperintelligences that might exist; or they may treat intelligence levels with some measure of anti-discrimination sentiment. This is one of the areas that can only be occupied by complete speculation until it actually occurs, I suppose. | 04:39 |
| Mariu | thanks, strangewarp | 04:39 |
| strangewarp | oh, they left.. | 04:40 |
| strangewarp | you're welcome? :x | 04:40 |
| Mariu | yup :x | 04:40 |
| kanzure | mako: the singularitarians are a very specific subbranch of all these communities, with a very particular leader (eliezer yudkowsky) | 06:59 |
| strangewarp | I thought Kurzweil was the grandpappy singularitarian, and Yudkowsky was trying to apply rationality to it? Since Kurzweil is full of woo.. | 07:08 |
| kanzure | uh, no | 07:11 |
| kanzure | kurzweil is just riding his popularity wave | 07:12 |
| kanzure | yudkowsky has a very particular mental framework built up of beliefs and rationalizations about artificial intelligence concerning the singularity | 07:12 |
| strangewarp | There was a Yudkowsky article about the difference between rationalization and rationality, but... weirdly, even though his reasoning is overall decent, he seems like he's lost his momentum, by attacking philosophical problems instead of focusing on engineering... | 07:19 |
| strangewarp | I like that he recognizes that you have to ask questions correctly for the answers to be relevant, but it seems like he's seeking out a perfect question before he'd encourage anyone to start creating concrete engineering projects.. | 07:21 |
| kanzure | strangewarp: http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-07-10.log | 07:32 |
| kanzure | i suggest starting at 14:37ish | 07:33 |
| strangewarp | let's see here.. | 07:33 |
| strangewarp | Ahh | 07:35 |
| kanzure | http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/10/singularity-institutes-scary-idea-and.html | 07:35 |
| kanzure | see at 15:00 | 07:36 |
| strangewarp | I do take issue with the urge towards establishing dominance in pursuit of liberation, which is a moderately prevalent meme.. | 07:36 |
| strangewarp | quoting from log | 07:40 |
| strangewarp | 15:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk: "provably non-dangerous AGI" is exactly the signs of a precautionary principle | 07:40 |
| strangewarp | Agree heartily | 07:40 |
| strangewarp | So far as LessWrong's attempts to push their variety of weirdly precautionary yet forward-looking structured rationality into the general population.. it was useful to help me get habits for criticism and deconstruction, and then I stopped, because I saw diminishing returns after that (as I'm not a philosopher or politician) | 07:45 |
| kanzure | huh someone tried out transcranial ultrasound | 07:45 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3s#t=2151s | 07:45 |
| kanzure | presenter: Stuart Hameroff | 07:46 |
| kanzure | starts at 34min i guess | 07:47 |
| kanzure | wait a second.. penrose-hameroff.. this is probably the same hameroff :/ | 07:50 |
| kanzure | pfft he has a pic of someone using ultrasound imaging on his head http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/ | 07:51 |
| kanzure | ugh "There was a study just recently on blocking the essential tremor. I think the mechanism of the ultrasound, which is vibrations in the 20,000 up to several megahertz, is actually through vibrations of microtubules. Now a lot of people we’re going to feel don’t have a clue as to what the mechanism is that they’re discussing. It turns out that the microtubules have residences in the kilohertz to megahertz range and I think the ultrasound is | 07:52 |
| kanzure | "TUS is thought to work via megahertz resonance of brain microtubules." by who? | 07:54 |
| kanzure | nobody has published anything of the sort | 07:54 |
| strangewarp | Actually, the more I think about the efforts to focus on provably (or probably) non-dangerous AGI, the more I think an AGI's reaction would be like a teenager whose parents forbid them from doing completely idiotic things they'd never get into anyway.. | 07:59 |
| kanzure | or it would be completely alien | 08:00 |
| uniqanomaly_ | we can't even prove any that particular child won't be next hitler | 08:00 |
| uniqanomaly_ | that any* | 08:00 |
| kanzure | Therefore we should sterilize the entire planet | 08:00 |
| uniqanomaly_ | precautionary principle at its finest | 08:01 |
| uniqanomaly_ | drink? don't irc gotaa go xD | 08:02 |
| strangewarp | I know from experience that strict and experimental education regimens can serve to make people surly and crazy for a long time, as well, and lately I've been drawing a mental parallel from that to certain techniques that might be used to encourage friendly-AI.. | 08:02 |
| kanzure | most of the fai talk is about the architecture of the ai, not preschool/childhood education | 08:03 |
| strangewarp | indeed.. | 08:03 |
| strangewarp | hell.. I keep misreading "futurists" as "fursuits". Brain damage from my years in the furry community, I think.. | 08:24 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Yep. | 08:54 |
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| strages_ | are there any diy methods for the production of quantum dots? | 09:14 |
| superkuh | http://mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/nanolab/CdSe/ | 09:22 |
| Mokbortolan_ | strages: you just need a really fine-tipped needle and some paint | 09:25 |
| kanzure | i think superkuh's answer is more precise | 09:39 |
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| strages_ | thanks for the link | 10:28 |
| Mokbortolan_ | hmm | 10:28 |
| Mokbortolan_ | does anybody actually have any safety data for noopept? | 10:28 |
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| kanzure | what's in nyc besides genspace and resistor? | 12:25 |
| bkero | bums, crack, and urine | 12:27 |
| strages_ | Alpha One Labs | 12:29 |
| Moktato | oh hey bkero, didn't notice you there | 12:30 |
| strages_ | HackManhattan | 12:30 |
| bkero | Moktato: I've been in here for years. | 12:30 |
| strages_ | Eyebeam | 12:31 |
| Moktato | I only recently stopped in, found it in a thread about the epoc | 12:31 |
| kanzure | it's ok bkero, we'll let you go on good behavior.... soon | 12:32 |
| bkero | kanzure: as long as you won't sell me as meat on a stick. | 12:32 |
| strangewarp | Lots of good musicians, if you can stand some quantity of hipster bullshit, apparently | 12:34 |
| strangewarp | (if you care about that sort of thing) | 12:34 |
| kanzure | alright! level 100 charizard. hell yeah | 12:40 |
| Omega | strangewarp: what is "hipster bullshit"? | 12:41 |
| strangewarp | I use the term sarcastically, because I don't really buy into that folk-demon, but sometimes you'll find an underground musician who's a critical darling, and yet completely boring.. so, that. | 12:43 |
| Omega | but I don't know what you're describing with it | 12:46 |
| Omega | what kind of music is "hipster bullshit" | 12:46 |
| Moktato | Omega: you probably haven't heard of it | 12:49 |
| strangewarp | Had to think about it for a minute.. but, I think, no kind. Or potentially, any band you might be tempted, like me, to take a sarcastic swipe at. In which case: young people being artsy in obnoxious ways instead of interesting ways. A common target is indie metal bands, which I think is funny.. | 12:50 |
| Moktato | what a great name for a band | 12:50 |
| Omega | strangewarp: but then the terms loses all its meaning, it basically means "stuff I don't like". | 12:51 |
| Omega | Which is hardly descriptive. | 12:51 |
| Moktato | "I'm listening to Hipster Bullshit, it's pretty new.." | 12:51 |
| strangewarp | Omega: Voila! :p | 12:52 |
| Moktato | criticizing hipsters is a hipster's favorite activity | 12:52 |
| Moktato | it's a bit like "The Game" | 12:53 |
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| strangewarp | I think the entire "hipster" thing is a mirage, since everyone who gets accused of it denies it; and instead it's somthing convenient for people to compare themselves to.. | 12:54 |
| strangewarp | Well, there are the people who ironically declare themselves hipsters, and that's either really clever or really awful, I'm not sure. | 12:55 |
| sylph_mako | I think it's a conspiracy, a meme propagated by capital to keep people from anti-capitalistic sentiments. Not really. It would be neat though. I shouldn't have said that. | 12:56 |
| bkero | They definitely exist. It's just another pathetic subculture. | 12:57 |
| Omega | Aren't a lot of hipsters anti-capistalists though? | 12:57 |
| bkero | at least some in the punk subculture tried to do something though | 12:57 |
| bkero | and thus begat culturejamming and adbusters | 12:57 |
| Omega | bkero: Hmm, what makes them pathetic? | 12:57 |
| bkero | Omega: it's not anticapitalist at all | 12:58 |
| sylph_mako | yeah that's the point. | 12:58 |
| sylph_mako | The hatred is propagated along with the meme. So that people think "I never want to be like that" | 12:58 |
| bkero | There's nothing that differentiates it between any other elitist subculture | 12:59 |
| bkero | except the self-referential paradox | 12:59 |
| sylph_mako | "I'm going to buy cheap bear and recycled clothing. I'm going to buy non-mainstream goods to battle monopolies" | 12:59 |
| sylph_mako | "Wait no I'm not, then I'd be a filthy hipster" | 12:59 |
| Omega | "I'm going to make my own clothes" | 12:59 |
| bkero | Hipsters dont make their own clothes. | 12:59 |
| Omega | The wikipedia article said they did | 12:59 |
| bkero | I can appreciate a DIY sentiment, but ipsters are not artisans. | 13:00 |
| bkero | far me it from me to challenge a wikipedia article about the doctines of hipsterdom. | 13:00 |
| Omega | Well, you could you know, give us a definition then? | 13:01 |
| Omega | So we're talking about the same thing. | 13:01 |
| Omega | Or does hipster just mean "people you don't like"? | 13:04 |
| bkero | I've usually gone with the composite of reading wikipedia, urbandictionary, and what I see in everyday life in hipster central (Portland). | 13:05 |
| sylph_mako | Portland! No shit! My counterpart remarked on the hipster density when she was living there. | 13:05 |
| bkero | It's critical. | 13:07 |
| sylph_mako | Something's gonna go down soon? | 13:08 |
| strangewarp | I watched a documentary on harsh noise music, set in Portland. Lots of people fixated on obscure interests there, apparently.. | 13:08 |
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| kanzure | are we seriously discussing the finer points of hipster theory | 13:28 |
| kanzure | or are we only discussing it ironically, i can't tell | 13:29 |
| strangewarp | I can't either. I'm scared kanzure | 13:30 |
| archels | Could someone grab this PDF for me? http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/TVCG.2011.55 | 13:34 |
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| kanzure | "A Neuron Membrane Mesh Representation for Visualization of Electrophysiological Simulations" | 13:35 |
| kanzure | "We present a process to automatically generate three-dimensional mesh representations ... from nonuniform morphological measurements" | 13:35 |
| kanzure | oh, coordinates and points | 13:35 |
| archels | I just want to look at pretty pictures. ^_^ | 13:35 |
| kanzure | yeh hold on my connection is being bogged down by another paper upload at the moment | 13:36 |
| kanzure | done.. | 13:36 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/2011-12-27.txt | 13:36 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/backups/pde5inhibitorsandantiageingcgmpnostemcellmobilisat.zip | 13:37 |
| kanzure | although the individual files are also in longevity/ | 13:37 |
| archels | oh it worked via a different ieee URL? weird | 13:37 |
| archels | computer.org vs. ieeecomputersociety.org | 13:38 |
| kanzure | pass it over | 13:38 |
| archels | Now you're asking me for the paper? :P | 13:38 |
| strages_ | kanzure: thank you for compiling collections of all these papers | 13:39 |
| archels | I think this might be it -> http://synthesis-simulator.com/ | 13:40 |
| kanzure | archels: if you already have it, it's easier than me firing up ssh sessions to random academic servers | 13:40 |
| archels | Hm no, that's just one of the co-author dudes. | 13:40 |
| archels | kanzure: 1 sec | 13:40 |
| kanzure | <script type="text/javascript">/*<![CDATA[*/var downloadCount=0;function addContextMenu(){jQuery(".abs-pdf").contextMenu("_digitallibraryabstract_WAR_plugins_INSTANCE_uxob__pdfMenu",{bindings:{open:function(a){openPDF("/plugins/dl/pdf/"+a.id,a.title)}, | 13:42 |
| archels | http://turingbirds.com/temp/neuron_membrane_mesh.pdf | 13:42 |
| kanzure | download:function(a){downloadPDF("/plugins/dl/pdf/"+a.id,a.title)}}})}function openDoc(c,f,b){try{tabs.clear(b);breadcrumbs.setLastEntry(b);var a=c;if(a.indexOf("?")>-1){a+="&template=1&loginState=1&userData=anonymous-IP%253A%253AAddress%253A%2B69.22.137.190%252C%2B%255B140.98.196.191%252C%2B69.22.137.190%252C%2B131.252.130.195%252C%2B127.0.0.1%255D"} | 13:42 |
| kanzure | god i hate this | 13:42 |
| kanzure | ok you got it | 13:44 |
| kanzure | "However, the algorithm requires that the sections are organized hierarchically and does not support cyclic graphs." | 13:45 |
| archels | That's usually, by approximation, OK for neurons. | 13:46 |
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| kanzure | huh, haven't heard of neurolucida | 13:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.mbfbioscience.com/neurolucida | 13:47 |
| archels | It's pretty popular, in the field. | 13:47 |
| kanzure | "The user-friendly interface gives you rapid results, allowing you to acquire data and capture the full 3D extent of neurons and brain regions. You can reconstruct neurons or create 3D serial reconstructions directly from slides or acquired images, and Neurolucida offers full microscope control for brightfield, fluorescent, and confocal microscopes." | 13:47 |
| kanzure | yeah i've just toyed around with genesis/neuron.. | 13:47 |
| archels | I need to get seriously into Neuron. | 13:49 |
| archels | Partly so I can criticize it better. | 13:49 |
| * archels bed | 13:52 | |
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| bkero | http://pastebin.com/vuMypejL | 14:03 |
| kanzure | shit, webintents are working already? | 14:08 |
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| sylph_mako | I wonder if you could get more computronium into a jupiter brain without it collapsing by spinning it. | 14:16 |
| sylph_mako | centripetal forces counteracting gravity. | 14:17 |
| eudoxia | I imagine radiation pressure could just keep statites floating | 14:20 |
| eudoxia | Someone clarify, does a 'Jupiter brain' include Dyson swarms around a jovian world or is it necessarily 'any computer with a mass equivalent to that of a jovian' | 14:21 |
| eudoxia | I always imagine the first because the mass of Jupiter turned to computronium is such utter nonsense | 14:21 |
| nsh | right | 14:24 |
| nsh | whereas the rest of the things you just said are deep within the realm of reality | 14:24 |
| sylph_mako | I think they're thinking of size. they're expected to be hollow enough that they weigh about that of a moon. Whatever that is. | 14:24 |
| nsh | :P | 14:24 |
| sylph_mako | radiation pressure really? We do expect a lot of heat though. | 14:24 |
| eudoxia | Well, disassembling a moon into satellites or statites that hover on radiation pressure or the magnetosphere is certainly more feasible than an entire Jovian world made of Computronium | 14:25 |
| eudoxia | I guess you could have some kind of rigid shell if you had enough pressure from the inside to keep it up | 14:26 |
| kanzure | http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=131056 | 14:26 |
| kanzure | "essay on realistic space combat" | 14:26 |
| kanzure | the first thing i think he gets wrong is that ships necessarily need to be higher temperatures because of crew compliments | 14:27 |
| kanzure | why have crews? | 14:27 |
| Mariu | remote control ? | 14:27 |
| bkero | kanzure: what was that project that aimed to create a shared history of the universe for use between several games? | 14:28 |
| eudoxia | or local intelligence | 14:28 |
| kanzure | "but they will be able to learn a surprising amount about your ships by studying the exhaust. By running it through a spectrograph they will be able to tell what kind of fuel you’re using. By observing the brightness and temperature of your exhaust plume they will be able to determine your thrust, which they can then compare to your acceleration to determine the mass of the ship." | 14:29 |
| kanzure | eh couldn't you mess up that data with other light | 14:29 |
| kanzure | bkero: i don't remember? | 14:29 |
| sylph_mako | I don't think remote control was an option, I havn't read this one, but arn't the warriors expected to start firing so far apart that they can dodge lasers? | 14:31 |
| kanzure | "was an option"? it's just someone imagining what "realistic" space battles would be like | 14:32 |
| kanzure | i think giant space lasers that blow up entire planets would be more realistic :/ | 14:32 |
| kanzure | or giant lenses / sunlight magnification | 14:33 |
| sylph_mako | non moving targets were fucked IIRC. | 14:33 |
| kanzure | "The combatants will plunge towards each other at dozens or hundreds of km/s and hit each other as hard as they can as they pass by each other. If both sides are lucky enough to have survivors they may turn back towards each other and try for another pass in a few hours, days, or weeks." | 14:33 |
| kanzure | why would you send people to do that | 14:33 |
| sylph_mako | Hahahaha | 14:33 |
| kanzure | hah "This means that all those space dogfights where one fighter gets behind the other and the other one has to try and shake it like in air combat are very unrealistic. There’s no comprehensible reason why the pursued pilot can’t just turn his fighter around and blast the bugger." | 14:34 |
| eudoxia | The mass of the CELSS alone would level an entire city | 14:34 |
| kanzure | it seems more efficient to me to just launch a probe that will replicate/build your fleet at the target destination | 14:38 |
| eudoxia | Why would there even be a fleet? | 14:38 |
| kanzure | law of numbers? | 14:39 |
| eudoxia | The only 'fleet' I can imagine is a set of relativistic bombs | 14:40 |
| eudoxia | With each side trying to destroy the power sources of the other | 14:40 |
| kanzure | "with wavelengths of tens of thousands of nanometers" um.. so it's not a nanometer | 14:41 |
| Moktato | hahaha | 14:41 |
| eudoxia | hahaha | 14:41 |
| Moktato | jinx!@ | 14:41 |
| eudoxia | seriously now, the entire essay is "Hey guys I just found this cool site called Atomic Rockets..." | 14:42 |
| kanzure | "with ranges in the thousands of kilometers" | 14:45 |
| kanzure | lasers seem like a lousy defense if you are limiting their range to 300 km, can't you just blow up a star or something | 14:46 |
| kanzure | "The critical limitation on laser effectiveness at short ranges will probably be the time needed to switch from one target to the next. The actual targeting computer will probably be able to do so very quickly," | 14:47 |
| kanzure | "but remember, we’re talking multi-megawatt lasers with 10 meter mirrors and massive cooling systems here. The turrets these things are mounted in will be literally the size of a house, and I doubt they will be able to rotate to a new target with lightening speed." | 14:47 |
| kanzure | this guy is a moron | 14:47 |
| eudoxia | and while those guys try to debug the targeting computer, the smart posthuman will be safe, below two hundred kilometers of rock, remotely launching RKKV's while the enemy destroys decoy facilities | 14:49 |
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| sylph_mako | You wont get 200 KM on earth unless you like it molten. | 14:56 |
| eudoxia | All the heat was heat was drained to power the computer factories | 14:57 |
| sylph_mako | I don't think you can drain that much =] if you're using water I can't imagine how bad the cloud cover would get. | 15:00 |
| sylph_mako | Or how you could keep the turbines from melting. | 15:01 |
| eudoxia | Well I never said it was the Earth | 15:05 |
| eudoxia | you could dig a bunker in fucking Mars, keep the Earth with its radio noise as decoy | 15:05 |
| eudoxia | Nobody ever suspects Mars... | 15:05 |
| sylph_mako | =] | 15:09 |
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| kanzure | facebook is crazy http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/ | 16:59 |
| kanzure | this is a user agent library to map user agent strings to device capabilities | 16:59 |
| ybit | lkjadf | 17:00 |
| kanzure | readin' http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/redux_how_facebook_mobile_was_designed_to_write_once_run.php | 17:02 |
| tarcieri | kanzure: o_O | 17:02 |
| kanzure | tarcieri: you'll like page 2 i think, | 17:03 |
| kanzure | before they started using a phonegap-like-solution, they wrote some framework to detect user agents | 17:03 |
| tarcieri | heh | 17:03 |
| kanzure | and then decide whether to use certain css rules to render their buttons | 17:03 |
| tarcieri | sounds pretty absurd | 17:03 |
| kanzure | or w/e they served to the clients | 17:03 |
| tarcieri | what happens if your device isn't in the database? | 17:03 |
| kanzure | well they had touch.facebook.com and m.facebook.com | 17:04 |
| kanzure | so if you weren't in the db i guess you got m.facebook.com | 17:04 |
| tarcieri | heh | 17:04 |
| tarcieri | I see | 17:04 |
| kanzure | as for their ui webkit stuff, either he's very uninformed about how sending js to the client works | 17:05 |
| kanzure | or they have a very complicated two-http-requests approach for querying their api server | 17:05 |
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| kanzure | obscure blog post about pens at restaurants http://karentl.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/design-artifact-plastic-spoon-taped-to-pen/ | 17:20 |
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| kanzure | why are suspenders considered "punk"? what | 18:42 |
| strangewarp | Because Avril Lavigne wore them in 2007. | 18:52 |
| strangewarp | (I hate myself for knowing that) | 18:52 |
| strangewarp | Actually | 18:52 |
| strangewarp | It's because they were worn by both working-class, nazi, and anti-nazi skins, who tend to be fans of oi! music, which is a sister-genre of punk and ska. | 18:53 |
| strangewarp | ... I think. | 18:53 |
| strangewarp | Actually, suspenders are more of a rudeboy thing.. rudeboys being your stereotypical ska fan | 18:54 |
| strangewarp | so many dumb cliques | 18:54 |
| kanzure | all i see are words on my screen | 18:55 |
| kanzure | why do you know these things | 18:55 |
| strangewarp | I don't know :( | 18:55 |
| strangewarp | I like music and hate people, and there's plenty opportunity for overlap? | 18:56 |
| Mariu | Laters | 18:59 |
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| kanzure | any creative ideas for abusing this? http://www.craigslist.org/about/bulk_posting_interface | 21:58 |
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| kanzure | this moment brought to you by japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_F_awAHgtA | 22:33 |
| kanzure | or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AYaFL6SWmk#t=1m40s | 22:37 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Dec 28 00:00:48 2011 | ||
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