| --- Log opened Thu Feb 23 00:00:14 2012 | ||
| --- Day changed Thu Feb 23 2012 | ||
| rdb | *yawn* morning | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Mokbortolan_1 | morning | 00:00 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | rdb: check this out: http://www.senseg.com | 00:01 |
| rdb | looks interesting | 00:01 |
| rdb | of course, patented :-/ | 00:02 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | now this: http://vision.wicab.com/technology/ | 00:02 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | and once you're done with that, read this abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8606771 | 00:02 |
| rdb | electrode array, huh? is that how the senseg works, too? | 00:04 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | nope | 00:04 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | similar in the sense that it's a grid, I suppose | 00:04 |
| rdb | so why are you showing me these links? | 00:05 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | don't they fit together like puzzle pieces in your head? | 00:05 |
| rdb | remember that I just woke up | 00:06 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | oh | 00:06 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | basically it's a brain input | 00:06 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | over which you can carry visual data, among other types | 00:07 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | through any skin densely populated with touch receptors | 00:07 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | of course, an internal implant would be better in the long term, but this is something that is approachable by the average person and achievable within a relatively short time frame, seeing as how the major components of the technology have already been created | 00:09 |
| rdb | but the data would be experienced as tactile sensations, right, not as visual perception? | 00:09 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | did you read the third link? | 00:09 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | and the second | 00:09 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the brain doesn't care where the data comes through | 00:09 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the brainport was used successfully to replace the vestibular sense of a woman who lost hers due to gentamycin treatment | 00:10 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | as well as the visual sense of a blind man | 00:10 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | and a reporter wearing a blindfold | 00:10 |
| rdb | so how is the data 'targeted'? is it just a matter of right frequency etc? | 00:10 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | in the case of the first example, it was basically a level | 00:10 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the brainport is a square grid of electrodes | 00:11 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | a group of X electrodes were used to represent the bubble of the electronic level strapped to this lady's head | 00:11 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | when the level was centered, the group was in the center of the tongue | 00:11 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | when she shifted, the group shifted its position on the grid | 00:12 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the brain just said, "Hey! balance data! gimme!" | 00:12 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | and she could walk upright for the first time in years | 00:12 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | they projected a pixellated camera view onto it, brain says, "Visual data! yeah!" | 00:12 |
| rdb | that's very interesting | 00:12 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I'm sure you could do the same with auditory | 00:13 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | ....somehow.... :) | 00:13 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | so I was thinking of putting an electrostatic display version of that on the fingertips | 00:13 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | or entire hand | 00:14 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the fingertips would be the foveas, the rest would be peripheral | 00:14 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | could do multiple foveas for the three primary colors | 00:14 |
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| Mokbortolan_1 | switch to IR, UV, long-wave IR | 00:15 |
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| Mokbortolan_1 | a friend of mine is going blind | 00:16 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | and I'd like to have some eyes ready for him when it happens | 00:16 |
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| Mokbortolan_1 | I've been bugging them about a dev kit for a while | 00:18 |
| foucist | Mokbortolan_1: you know about that from 'the brain that changes' ? | 00:18 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | about which? | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I read a lot of stuff | 00:19 |
| foucist | the brain port/balance | 00:19 |
| foucist | read that book too | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I think I read about first in an article | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | of a magazine | 00:19 |
| foucist | ah | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | then I read a few more magazine articles as I researched it more | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | this was a few years back | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I'll check out that book though | 00:19 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | that sounds relevant :) | 00:19 |
| rdb | it all sounds very interesting, and I definitely want to look deeper into it | 00:19 |
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| Mokbortolan_1 | my goal is to get some VC up to pursue input technologies | 00:20 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | maybe kickstarter | 00:20 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | and sell 1" squares of the stuff | 00:20 |
| foucist | Mokbortolan_1: i read the book before/after basic surgery to stick a brain port in my ear! a la, cochlear implant :P | 00:20 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | flexible | 00:20 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | you have a cochlear implant? | 00:21 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | cyborg! | 00:21 |
| foucist | word | 00:21 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the brain is in-credible | 00:21 |
| rdb | ^^; | 00:21 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | how long did it take you to adjust to the implant? | 00:22 |
| rdb | now to find a paper that doesn't cost me $32 to download | 00:22 |
| foucist | Mokbortolan_1: about 3 weeks | 00:22 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | was it static at first? | 00:22 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | or, I should ask, what was it like at first? :p | 00:23 |
| foucist | no, mickey mouse voices @ first | 00:23 |
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| Mokbortolan_1 | rdb: I'm sure someone can dig it up if you really wanna read it | 00:23 |
| foucist | they start it off slow, low volume/low electricity input and ramped it up over time.. but the input was more or less recognizable as 'sound' | 00:23 |
| foucist | took about 3 weeks for it to sounds normal | 00:23 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | how long ago was this? what hearing range do you have now? | 00:24 |
| rdb | Mokbortolan_1, read it? I wanna make it | 00:24 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I'm curious to see if there have been any advances in terms of the hearing range of the devices | 00:24 |
| foucist | surgery oct 6 2008, turned it on relatively late dec 1 or so (so about 5-6 weeks of healing) | 00:24 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | make the input thing I'm talking about? | 00:24 |
| rdb | I'm interested in brain-computer interfaces both ways | 00:25 |
| foucist | Mokbortolan_1: i definitely get more hearing range/input now | 00:25 |
| Steel2 | I missed this discussion | 00:25 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the one I linked to was just an fMRI of a blind guy when a doc poked his braille-finger | 00:25 |
| Steel2 | foucist, what did you have done? | 00:25 |
| foucist | but there's some significant bandwidth limitations w/ the current level of cochlear tech | 00:25 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | Steel2: he got turned into a 'borg | 00:25 |
| Steel2 | what particular way? :P | 00:25 |
| foucist | i went with american company advanced bionics, 16 electrodes instead of the 22 electrodes that the Cochlear brand has.. however, AB has a much higher stimulation (capable of something like 7200HZ or something, i forget the #) and it's actually able to do current steering | 00:26 |
| foucist | and basically fake 121 electrodes as a result | 00:26 |
| foucist | so 121 virtual electrodes | 00:26 |
| foucist | from the 16 + current steering | 00:26 |
| Steel2 | foucist, what did you have implanted? | 00:27 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | wow | 00:27 |
| rdb | Steel2, cochlear implant | 00:27 |
| foucist | Steel2: wire into the ear :P | 00:27 |
| Steel2 | were you deaf before, or was this a mod? | 00:27 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | expensive mod :p | 00:27 |
| foucist | Steel2: basically been hard of hearing since 2 years old, but i decided i wanted better hearing so i got this at age of 27 | 00:28 |
| foucist | Mokbortolan_1: canadian healthcare.. free :P | 00:28 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | augh | 00:28 |
| rdb | and given the audio quality of those things it's probably not something you'd want if your hearing was fine | 00:28 |
| * Mokbortolan_1 moves to canadia. | 00:28 | |
| * rdb stays away from canadia. | 00:28 | |
| foucist | actually i would've gotten it a lot sooner but i made assumptions about the risk level/surgery | 00:29 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | rdb: do you have any formal degrees in neurobiology? | 00:29 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I need a neurobiologist with a strong interest in vision | 00:29 |
| rdb | no, I don't | 00:29 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I'm putting together a team | 00:29 |
| rdb | are you an electrical engineer? | 00:29 |
| foucist | read a blog about someone's experiences w/ getting a cochlear implant when i was 26 and got the ball rolling | 00:29 |
| foucist | anyways, i think the tech is awesome .. computer/brain stuff is amazing | 00:29 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | no, I'm the wacky visionary that will get pushed out of the picture once real money starts to roll in | 00:29 |
| foucist | i want to hack on my implant :P | 00:29 |
| Steel2 | I'm hopefully the money that does the pushing | 00:30 |
| Steel2 | but probably not, that'll be thiel or something :V | 00:30 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | hahaha | 00:30 |
| rdb | I'm an engineer and I'm interested in developing the technology | 00:30 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | though, if it helps my friend see, that's what's important | 00:30 |
| foucist | there's a paper out there where some phd scientists tested interactive evolutionary computation to improve a guy's experience with his older tech Cochlear (brand) implant.. they got pretty good results with it | 00:31 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | sweet, what kind of engineering? | 00:31 |
| rdb | electrical :3 | 00:31 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I've got a mechanical engineer and an embedded systems programmer | 00:31 |
| rdb | I've got a lot on my plate though so I can't guarantee that I'll always have time | 00:31 |
| foucist | i thought that the AB technology had even more potential for getting great results out using something like IEC | 00:31 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | awesome, though it's a bit early to start a mailing list | 00:31 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | rdb: once I get everything together we can work out the contract details | 00:32 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | which may never happen | 00:33 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | but, I'm going to try | 00:33 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | my poor friend, first he shattered his femur, now he's going blind | 00:33 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | he has terrible luck | 00:33 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the least I can do is make him some new eyes | 00:34 |
| rdb | ouch :-( | 00:34 |
| foucist | ftp://ftp.cs.bham.ac.uk/pub/authors/W.B.Langdon/biblio/gecco2005wks/papers/0133.pdf | 00:34 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | oooh | 00:34 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | that's a good oe | 00:34 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | +n | 00:35 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | I figure if I keep my goals lofty I might get some traction | 00:35 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | nothing kills an idea quicker than trying to suck money out of it | 00:35 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | or a sudden heroid habit | 00:36 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | heroin | 00:36 |
| foucist | actually http://www.genetic-programming.org/hc2007/01-Collett/Collett-Paper.pdf is where i first saw it from the human competitive EC awards | 00:36 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | time for bed, nn | 00:37 |
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| rdb | night | 00:38 |
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| Steel2 | mok: I can make you a subforum | 00:43 |
| Steel2 | oh, he left | 00:43 |
| Steel2 | no need for mailing list, just use my site, I'll keep it private >_> | 00:43 |
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| kanzure | "Henry wants €1 billion to model the entire human brain" http://www.nature.com/news/computer-modelling-brain-in-a-box-1.10066 | 05:24 |
| kanzure | and he should get it. | 05:24 |
| rkos | i dont know, some of the other fet flagship competitors seem pretty interesting too | 05:25 |
| rkos | http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/ict/programme/fet/flagship/6pilots_en.html | 05:25 |
| kanzure | ah this is new for me: http://channelpedia.net/ | 05:27 |
| kanzure | rkos: have you ever watched henry's 2006 talk? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874207418572601262 | 05:32 |
| rkos | i remember seeing some talk of his but im not sure if it was that | 05:32 |
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| kanzure | mm cake ftp://ftp.w3.org/pub/old/ | 05:44 |
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| delinquentme | packaging up code https://github.com/delinquentme/jython_oscar | 06:37 |
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| kanzure | haha someone has installed a botnet on hplusmagazine.com | 08:40 |
| kanzure | just got an email from an undernet sysadmin.. | 08:40 |
| jrayhawk | oh yeah, if you install wordpress or drupal on that vserver i gave you, you might end up with a forcibly detached robot arm in your bed | 08:49 |
| jrayhawk | (because i don't really have a good analogue for a horse, here) | 08:49 |
| kanzure | i have no idea what you just said | 08:51 |
| jrayhawk | okay well you should feel ominously threatened | 08:52 |
| kanzure | i feel ominously threatened | 08:52 |
| jrayhawk | keep up the good work | 08:52 |
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| kanzure | quartzy has received $1.2 mil in funding | 09:10 |
| kanzure | http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2012/02/23/quartzy-scores-1-2m-to-help-life-scientists-stay-organized/ | 09:10 |
| kanzure | 'life sciences angel network' hrmmm | 09:10 |
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| kanzure | i wonder when backyard brais is going to raise some cash | 09:16 |
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| delinquentme | OMG | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | HI | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | <3 | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | LOVE YOU GUYS | 09:27 |
| * Mokstar_AFK gives delinquentme a cookie. | 09:27 | |
| -!- Mokstar_AFK is now known as Mokstar | 09:27 | |
| * delinquentme hugs Mokstar | 09:27 | |
| delinquentme | kanzure, they've got a 3rd (?) product out now right? | 09:28 |
| Mokstar | looks like SOMEONE's been in the entactogen cabinet again. | 09:28 |
| delinquentme | haha | 09:28 |
| delinquentme | http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/120222/nadarkhani-sentenced-death-converting-christianity << im reading this | 09:29 |
| delinquentme | and it just makes me so fucking sad | 09:29 |
| delinquentme | as I said on FB .. religion however you want | 09:29 |
| Mokstar | yep, people killing each other again | 09:29 |
| Mokstar | it feels so much more tragic when it's drawn out | 09:29 |
| kanzure | you know about bill clinton's rescue mission to north korea? | 09:29 |
| Mokstar | rather than simply a syrian shell landing on a civilian house and killing all inside | 09:29 |
| kanzure | you should grow some balls and go do that next time | 09:30 |
| Mokstar | no, is that a current thing? | 09:30 |
| kanzure | nope it was a while back | 09:30 |
| kanzure | but basically he hopped on a plane to go save a journalist in north korea | 09:30 |
| delinquentme | but again I guess we're killing over oil they're killing over religion | 09:30 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, what happened w that? | 09:30 |
| jrayhawk | North Korea likes gamesmanship; Iran does not. | 09:31 |
| delinquentme | gamesmanship? | 09:31 |
| jrayhawk | North Korea is only stable because of diplomatic concessions it pulls from China and the U.S. | 09:32 |
| kanzure | i like how their surprise birthday party was misinterpreted as an assassination | 09:33 |
| kanzure | i wish my birthday parties were that cool | 09:33 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/enzyme_classifications.yaml | 09:36 |
| kanzure | ennnzymmmess | 09:37 |
| uniqanomaly | delinquentme: screw the retarded memes like religion | 09:38 |
| uniqanomaly | from one pov its somewhat funny how they slow down evolution of some | 09:39 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly, <3 | 09:39 |
| kanzure | oh wow, according to nate, the EC classification/hierarchy is manually currated | 09:40 |
| kanzure | not an automatic database | 09:40 |
| uniqanomaly | delinquentme: it keeps their progress in line | 09:40 |
| uniqanomaly | ^^ | 09:40 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly, im shaking my head | 09:41 |
| delinquentme | so true man | 09:41 |
| kanzure | http://pfam.sanger.ac.uk/family/browse | 09:42 |
| delinquentme | But I mean.. When I fuck up .. its just not my fault! Utterly out of my control! Just makes life SOO MUCH EASIER << previous FB status | 09:42 |
| kanzure | hmm maybe this is a better way | 09:42 |
| Stee| | NSF site visit on wednesday for a new bionano constellation | 09:53 |
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| Stee| | how goes, roksprok | 10:43 |
| roksprok | a bit slow | 10:43 |
| Stee| | take speed | 10:44 |
| roksprok | apparently there is no insect breeder that keeps a steady stock | 10:44 |
| roksprok | i thought i'd be able to go online and just buy moths or something | 10:44 |
| roksprok | but its all 'set up a monthly order of at least 100 units' | 10:44 |
| roksprok | or 'we ship these in march every year' | 10:44 |
| Stee| | what are you hoping to do? | 10:45 |
| roksprok | i'd like to reproduce some of the remote control insect stuff | 10:45 |
| roksprok | because from the papers i've read its all really rudimentary stuff | 10:45 |
| roksprok | like, 3 electrodes | 10:45 |
| Stee| | Hmm | 10:45 |
| Stee| | don't certain animals eat insects? | 10:46 |
| roksprok | yea, but to hold all the stuff you need pretty large ones anyway | 10:46 |
| Stee| | hrm | 10:46 |
| roksprok | and i live in ohio so other than cockroaches relatively large insects are not exactly common | 10:47 |
| roksprok | pet stores stock scorpions and some spiders but they may be a bit too difficult | 10:47 |
| roksprok | and i'd like to start with something that's been done a lot so i can troubleshoot the circuit | 10:48 |
| roksprok | and know that i'm not just putting the electrode in the wrong place | 10:49 |
| roksprok | so, hopefully i'll catch a few roaches tonight | 10:50 |
| roksprok | anyway, anything up with you? | 10:51 |
| roksprok | do you graduate this june? | 10:51 |
| Stee| | hopefully sooner | 10:51 |
| Stee| | I have a 'lot' (relative to previously) of money waiting as soon as I finish | 10:51 |
| roksprok | a job lined up? | 10:52 |
| Stee| | yeah | 10:53 |
| roksprok | nice | 10:53 |
| roksprok | what area of the country? | 10:53 |
| Stee| | DC | 10:56 |
| ThomasEgi | roksprok, so you are aiming for more electrodes? got an array? | 11:06 |
| roksprok | ThomasEgi: i don't really have much of anything yet, but yea the end goal is to have an array | 11:09 |
| roksprok | though a 3 dimensional one | 11:09 |
| roksprok | as opposed to something like the utah array | 11:09 |
| roksprok | though the progression will be more like 2 electrodes, 3, 4, 8, and so on | 11:09 |
| roksprok | rather than going straight from 2 to a 16 or 64 electrode array | 11:10 |
| roksprok | if you have any links on making arrays, i'd appreciate them though | 11:10 |
| roksprok | i've found mouthbrain and hexatrode | 11:11 |
| roksprok | although hexatrode is just input | 11:11 |
| roksprok | http://hackteria.org/?p=480 and http://www.zachhoeken.com/mouthbrain | 11:11 |
| roksprok | first one is the hexatrode and second is mouthbrain | 11:12 |
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| roksprok | from what i can tell, most of the current research is in 'stimulate an antenna or optic nerve and promote an instinctive turn' | 11:13 |
| roksprok | rather than, 'activate part of the CNS that drives the [start turning] commands' | 11:14 |
| ThomasEgi | well , you have 2 choices. either rely on the reflexes of the insect. | 11:16 |
| ThomasEgi | or you controll each of the nerves yourself. | 11:16 |
| ThomasEgi | the later option requires a lot more work and is harder to do | 11:17 |
| ThomasEgi | 3d electrodes are very difficult to manufacture | 11:17 |
| ThomasEgi | a high-resolution 2d array is already very dififcult for diy folks. altho it can be done | 11:19 |
| roksprok | would it be impractical to attempt to 'trim' a utah array or something similar? | 11:20 |
| ThomasEgi | in order to trim something you need to have it in first place | 11:21 |
| ThomasEgi | i would have no clue how to get my hands on one, and i'd love to. | 11:21 |
| Stee| | if I have 80 grand spare laying around I can build an electrohydrodynamic inkjet setup and print some out for you :P | 11:22 |
| ThomasEgi | you can print structures as small as electrode arrays? including wiring them up? | 11:22 |
| kanzure | $80k sounds too much for that setup | 11:23 |
| kanzure | is that just your fee or what | 11:23 |
| ThomasEgi | my best bet was to bundle a bunch of very fine insulated wires. glue them together to a a rigid bundle. | 11:24 |
| ThomasEgi | then cut it at an angle. | 11:24 |
| ThomasEgi | and try to etch out a few micrometers of the glue | 11:24 |
| ThomasEgi | guess most wires are ways to flexible for that. | 11:25 |
| ThomasEgi | at leat if you want to penetrate anything. but might make a cheap diy-surface array | 11:25 |
| ThomasEgi | wire diameters ranging from 25μm (38 with teflon coating) and bigger are available | 11:30 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.science-products.com/Products/CatalogG/Wires/wires.html | 11:30 |
| ThomasEgi | price is dirt cheap compared to an 80k upfront investment | 11:30 |
| roksprok | ooo that is a lot better than what i was looking at | 11:38 |
| ThomasEgi | that company is only a few km off a road i travel bout every 2 month | 11:38 |
| ThomasEgi | they sell a lot of lab and medical-grade stuff. | 11:39 |
| roksprok | its nice that they sell in relatively low quantities too | 11:39 |
| kanzure | kinda unfortunate, utah arrays are pretty cool :) | 11:39 |
| ThomasEgi | cool yeah. but, what good are they if you dont have access to them? | 11:39 |
| kanzure | access? i thought that cyberutahthing sold them | 11:40 |
| roksprok | are they good about selling to non-academics? | 11:40 |
| kanzure | cyberkinetics in utah | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | they sell array???? | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | link, addres, phone.. and what price? | 11:40 |
| kanzure | well i remember like $80/pop | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | 80 or 80k ? | 11:41 |
| kanzure | $80.00 | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | per "pin" ? | 11:41 |
| kanzure | and that's a fucking american decimal point, not a european decimal point | 11:41 |
| kanzure | i'm searching for the link | 11:42 |
| kanzure | http:/tdt.com/ is another supplier | 11:42 |
| kanzure | http://alascience.com/ | 11:42 |
| kanzure | contact: Andrew Lee <andy3328@yahoo.com> (works at ala) | 11:42 |
| kanzure | oh hell. | 11:43 |
| kanzure | http://www.qwane.com/products.html | 11:44 |
| kanzure | yeah sorry. i'm reading through some emails and it looks like someone was complaining abuot a $75,000 system | 11:44 |
| kanzure | but really i recall this el-cheapo source for microelectrode arrays... | 11:44 |
| kanzure | ok how do i become these guys: http://autom8.com/ | 11:45 |
| kanzure | price list (no MEAs) http://www.autom8.com/shop/allprods.php | 11:45 |
| Stee| | kanz, you want to start a firm like that? | 11:46 |
| kanzure | yeah if i can get sales | 11:46 |
| kanzure | why not | 11:46 |
| kanzure | a single project is enough to cover the costs of design/development/production of customized equipment | 11:46 |
| kanzure | and that equipment might as well be open hardware | 11:46 |
| kanzure | it'd be pretty easy to get total market share pretty fast | 11:47 |
| kanzure | if you had sales. | 11:47 |
| Stee| | basically, the way those firms usually start is they know someone at a given lab and make something for them | 11:47 |
| Stee| | or they come up with a new piece of equipment | 11:47 |
| Stee| | or they just have contacts who will need equipment shortly | 11:47 |
| kanzure | yes i know | 11:47 |
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| kanzure | i happen to not know many people willing to pay $50k for things that cost $500 | 11:48 |
| ThomasEgi | hm..those microwire seems to be pretty close to what i had in mind as diy thing | 11:50 |
| roksprok | except everything is probably proprietary with connectors that only work on their equipment | 11:52 |
| roksprok | protected by patents so you can't just sell a drop in replacement | 11:52 |
| ThomasEgi | those connectors look pretty industry-standard | 11:53 |
| ThomasEgi | same stuff they use in mobile phones and crap | 11:53 |
| roksprok | which site are you looking at? | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | http://tdt.com/products/MW16.htm#OMN1010 | 11:54 |
| roksprok | ah cool looks a lot more reasonable | 11:55 |
| roksprok | i wonder what the prices are like on this stuff | 11:56 |
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| roksprok | ThomasEgi: have you done diy electrode recording/stimulation before? | 11:59 |
| roksprok | or know of a ircchannel/forum/group with people who have? | 12:00 |
| ThomasEgi | other than poking needles into my arm and connecting it to my signal generator. not yet | 12:00 |
| kanzure | roksprok: diybio and backyardbrains | 12:00 |
| roksprok | kanzure: thanks | 12:00 |
| ThomasEgi | rdb and me ordered a bunch of ADS119x chips from TI, i plan to use them to record muscle-activity, and on long term.directly wiring them up to neurons | 12:00 |
| ThomasEgi | given i can find an array for it | 12:00 |
| ThomasEgi | the breakout pcb;s for the chips should ship within march | 12:01 |
| rdb | hopefully | 12:01 |
| rdb | if those children in those factories in china work hard enough | 12:02 |
| * rdb is joking. | 12:02 | |
| ThomasEgi | https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=61095 i wont let php touch my nervous system now :D | 12:07 |
| kanzure | why would you even.. | 12:07 |
| kanzure | fathom.. of such a possibility | 12:07 |
| uniqanomaly | heresy | 12:13 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, never had any intention :D | 12:15 |
| ThomasEgi | if anything, then c | 12:16 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. but then. i'd be extremly interested in that diy-wire-electrode idea. especially as it would keep an implantable device rather small. | 12:22 |
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| ThomasEgi | roksprok, have you given moth a thought? | 12:33 |
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| delinquentme | im cross spamming sooo many channels | 13:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.labguru.com lab management stuff | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, I should be able to deploy any database to any application on heroku right? | 13:55 |
| kanzure | no i think it's just what they have installed iirc | 13:56 |
| kanzure | unless you can install it with a gem | 13:56 |
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| kanzure | http://biospot10.blogspot.com/2012/02/biosafety-part-i-biosafety-biohackers.html | 14:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.biobuilder.org/ wtf.. | 14:31 |
| kanzure | so they're doing 3d animations about synthetic biology | 14:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.biobuilder.org/request-reagents/ | 14:32 |
| kanzure | "but what happens if there's a G and T, and the in between A is missed?" | 14:33 |
| kanzure | "Dude, you're smart, but so are the chemists. On to the next part.." | 14:33 |
| kanzure | um... this isn't science | 14:33 |
| kanzure | "If this other tech really works and can do perfect DNA reading, including knowing which genes are expressed, then Halcyon will shift its focus to writing genes." | 14:36 |
| kanzure | http://pandodaily.com/2012/02/22/new-competitive-threat-forces-halcyon-molecular-to-accelerate-its-game-plan/ | 14:36 |
| kanzure | what.. since when is halcyon going to do synthesis? | 14:36 |
| Juul | it's a synberc thing huh | 14:37 |
| kanzure | i like how they just lied to me about their long-term plans | 14:38 |
| kanzure | wait, no i don't | 14:38 |
| roksprok | ThomasEgi: yeah that's actually what i'm leaning towards | 14:39 |
| roksprok | kanzure: i wouldn't trust anything from pandodaily | 14:39 |
| roksprok | thiel probably wanted to reassure investors | 14:39 |
| kanzure | why would he reassure them with dna synthesis | 14:40 |
| kanzure | surely he knows halcyon's plans better than this | 14:40 |
| roksprok | because they are similar? its not like founder's fund investors are biologists | 14:41 |
| roksprok | most are probably used to consumer web tech, where pivots are super easy | 14:41 |
| kanzure | ehh you don't give >$10mil to someone without knowing what they are doing | 14:42 |
| kanzure | pete might not be a biologist but he's not stupid | 14:42 |
| kanzure | oh also the quote was from elon musk | 14:42 |
| kanzure | who is also not stupid heh | 14:43 |
| roksprok | well he didn't exactly know that nanopore would work out | 14:43 |
| kanzure | actually it's more likely that they were too late to the party | 14:43 |
| kanzure | oxnano has been around for >5 years right? | 14:43 |
| kanzure | in later stages of fundraising you usually dump in more cash | 14:44 |
| roksprok | yeah, but isn't the sequencing industry full of companies giving predictions of cost-per-genome and how long it will take them to get there? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | founder's fund doesn't seem to do late-stage stuff, but i'm not sure | 14:44 |
| kanzure | sure.. they invested in halcyon because of other 'big vision' handwaving stuff | 14:44 |
| kanzure | oh weird. oxnano is only from 2005 | 14:45 |
| roksprok | what's halcyon's 'big vision'? | 14:45 |
| kanzure | longevity research | 14:45 |
| kanzure | i was interviewing with them for a position and i found their plans behind their big vision to be lacking | 14:46 |
| roksprok | that's a pretty big vision | 14:46 |
| kanzure | i think it would be great if they had a good plan | 14:46 |
| kanzure | but their plan is "do dna sequencing; sequence everything" | 14:46 |
| kanzure | "if someone beats us to market, then we sell electron microscopes" | 14:46 |
| roksprok | like, design their own electron microscopes? | 14:47 |
| roksprok | or just be a reseller? | 14:47 |
| kanzure | not sure, i asked that question though | 14:47 |
| kanzure | i think it's great that they've hired a lot of interesting people, but i'm not convinced of their plan | 14:48 |
| kanzure | and they didn't mention dna synthesis at all to me | 14:48 |
| roksprok | well it's not unusual for a company to give a different story to employees/partners/potential hires, and investors/the public | 14:49 |
| kanzure | sure | 14:50 |
| roksprok | my main point is that i wouldn't be surprised if their 'dna synthesis' plans were thought up a few days ago | 14:50 |
| kanzure | "what if we're late" was always a real possibility that they should have accounted for | 14:50 |
| roksprok | maybe they hope that if they have enough interesting people someone'll come up with something? | 14:55 |
| roksprok | do you remember about how many employees they have? | 14:55 |
| kanzure | 50ish | 14:56 |
| kanzure | there are many interesting and relevant transhumanist projects to work on | 14:56 |
| kanzure | and it's really curious if none of them are oriented well.. i mean sorta hard to believe.. | 14:57 |
| uniqanomaly | acquire all the competition, they could come up with that | 14:57 |
| roksprok | that costs a lot though | 14:58 |
| kanzure | money is the main thing they have going :/ | 14:59 |
| roksprok | 50ish employees is enough that they could have a few side-projects going on | 14:59 |
| roksprok | like koene's molecular ticker tape | 15:00 |
| roksprok | and once they are certain they're beat maybe they'll just pivot to something like that | 15:00 |
| roksprok | or they could have had a few people working on synthesis just for kicks | 15:01 |
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| kanzure | hi tibtab | 16:22 |
| tibtab | hi, did you see the video on #biohack? | 16:22 |
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| kanzure | no | 16:23 |
| kanzure | are you asking about genomecompiler.com | 16:23 |
| tibtab | y | 16:23 |
| kanzure | i think they are just some software outfit | 16:23 |
| kanzure | honestly i feel better with directly manipulating genomes through ncbi's interfaces | 16:23 |
| kanzure | and my own software. | 16:23 |
| tibtab | sry, for stalking you, but you went to a waldorf school too? :) | 16:35 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:38 |
| tibtab | so what do you think about it retrospectively | 16:41 |
| kanzure | well i think i know the spirit of a boulder quite well now | 16:42 |
| tibtab | ;) | 16:44 |
| kanzure | tibtab: i was out of control and kicked out | 16:51 |
| kanzure | around the third/fourth grade | 16:52 |
| tibtab | oh I was close to that too at one point :d | 16:53 |
| kanzure | are you worth stalking | 16:55 |
| tibtab | nah, probably not | 16:56 |
| Mokstar | I love this stuff: http://www.scarf360.com/files/SCARF-NeuroleadershipArticle.pdf | 16:58 |
| foucist | WHAT | 16:58 |
| foucist | i went to waldorf school too | 16:58 |
| foucist | grade 1-3 | 16:58 |
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| Mokstar | it's about the relationship between environmental survival and social interaction | 16:59 |
| Mokstar | in terms of the brain's circuitry | 16:59 |
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| kanzure | can anyone get me a reasonable OCW lecture on rational protein design | 17:00 |
| kanzure | and not one of the phony lectures where they just talk about the concept of protein design | 17:00 |
| kanzure | i mean one that actually knows CHRMM or something | 17:00 |
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| kanzure | foucist: ah then you too have been indoctrinated! cool | 17:00 |
| tibtab | :D | 17:01 |
| foucist | word | 17:08 |
| foucist | did you guys do the daily calisthenics thing, going around in a big circle ? | 17:09 |
| kanzure | of course.. | 17:09 |
| tibtab | sure | 17:10 |
| foucist | heh | 17:10 |
| kanzure | i also drew beautiful pastel gnomes | 17:10 |
| tibtab | and with wax crayons | 17:10 |
| foucist | big crayons ftw | 17:12 |
| foucist | and knitting and recorders | 17:13 |
| tibtab | and felting bags for the recorders, yey :D | 17:13 |
| foucist | knitted a kleenex dispenser for mom & a holder for the recorder | 17:13 |
| foucist | yeah | 17:14 |
| kanzure | oh yeah? well i knitted a level 17 orc | 17:14 |
| kanzure | or something | 17:14 |
| kanzure | probably a gnome too :/ | 17:14 |
| foucist | a lot of moms there seemed to be earth mother types.. or rural or farmer types | 17:17 |
| foucist | even tho the school was in the middle of the city | 17:17 |
| kanzure | mine was mostly upper middle class people with lots of money | 17:18 |
| tibtab | mine both, i would say | 17:18 |
| foucist | i mean the people were pretty liberal/environment friendly/eco conservative etc | 17:18 |
| foucist | they recycled | 17:19 |
| foucist | and composted | 17:19 |
| kanzure | they recycled?? | 17:19 |
| kanzure | oh man that's terrible | 17:19 |
| kanzure | ? | 17:19 |
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| foucist | kanzure: so your people didn't recycle? :P | 17:28 |
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| kanzure | foucist: sure they did. | 17:41 |
| kanzure | hi HEx1 are you tom | 17:41 |
| HEx1 | hi kanzure. I am. I also have an email reply for you that will be on its way very shortly :) | 17:42 |
| kanzure | HEx1: regarding purposeful-indexes.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ | 17:45 |
| HEx1 | wow, that's quite an eclectic document collection there :) | 17:46 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ is regarding our immediate interest | 17:48 |
| HEx1 | sweet! | 17:50 |
| kanzure | HEx1: do you work in some lab? | 17:57 |
| HEx1 | not exactly. I was going to be doing some lab work as part of my Masters attempting to replicate http://sphere.chronosempire.org.uk/~HEx/seelig3.pdf but that fell through before it got started (largely my own fault) | 18:01 |
| kanzure | there's a few grad students in here | 18:01 |
| kanzure | but more do-it-yourself biohackers | 18:01 |
| kanzure | non-institutionalized stuff | 18:02 |
| HEx1 | (mRNA display looks one of the more interesting DE techniques, but probably beyond my level of competence to actually carry out) | 18:02 |
| HEx1 | I might've got myself involved in some CHARMM hacking over the next few months though. after that, who knows? | 18:02 |
| kanzure | hmm i haven't seen mRNA display yet, sounds useful | 18:02 |
| kanzure | i guess it makes sense- DNA display/aptamers, why not mRNA.. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | HEx1: my actual project at the moment is the development and production of a microfluidic DNA synthesizer | 18:03 |
| kanzure | the enzymatic synthesis thing is more of a long-term goal a lot of people share | 18:03 |
| HEx1 | apparently library size is everything when it comes to DE, and mRNA display gets you perhaps 10^12 individual tagged proteins to screen | 18:03 |
| kanzure | *or not so long-term ;) | 18:04 |
| HEx1 | kanzure: what, oligo synthesis? | 18:04 |
| kanzure | yes but also an oligo library method | 18:04 |
| kanzure | 6mers | 18:04 |
| kanzure | target cost is <$5k-ish | 18:04 |
| HEx1 | you have a library of the 4096 possible 6-mers that you can then stitch together? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | that's the plan | 18:05 |
| HEx1 | nice idea | 18:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ | 18:06 |
| HEx1 | (more documents? my bedtime reading is *so* taken care of for the next several years :) | 18:06 |
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| kanzure | hi yashgaroth | 18:14 |
| yashgaroth | hoi | 18:14 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: mRNA display http://sphere.chronosempire.org.uk/~HEx/seelig3.pdf | 18:14 |
| yashgaroth | yeah, there's dna display too | 18:15 |
| kanzure | well yeah, but everyone knows about DNA display | 18:15 |
| kanzure | i think. | 18:15 |
| yashgaroth | how about mammalian cell display? aww yeah | 18:15 |
| HEx1 | there's also seelig1.pdf and seelig2.pdf for more description and less lists of reagents | 18:16 |
| yashgaroth | I might try presenting that to my company, they do have such trouble with phage display :/ | 18:24 |
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| yashgaroth | well, turns out they tried it already, but still cool | 18:39 |
| kanzure | aww | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | as well as cis display apparently | 18:39 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: HEx1 wrote up a draft proposal for RNA polymerase hacking http://sphere.chronosempire.org.uk/~HEx/tmp/prop.pdf | 18:40 |
| kanzure | so that's why i dragged him in here. | 18:40 |
| yashgaroth | hex1: there is a lot of work into getting transmembrane proteins, like photoreceptors, into soluble nanodiscs, rather than trying to solubilize them sans membrane | 18:44 |
| yashgaroth | little discs of phospholipids wrapped in a protein to keep them intact | 18:44 |
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| yashgaroth | it would also be good to know enough python to stop fumbling around in pymol all the time | 19:35 |
| kanzure | well, complain loudly and the pythonistas in here can help | 19:36 |
| yashgaroth | let me get the basics in first, I don't wanna be all 'how do I do pointers' every 5 minutes | 19:39 |
| kanzure | http://try-python.appspot.com/ | 19:39 |
| kanzure | ^for prosperity's sake | 19:39 |
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| foucist | s/prosperity/posterity | 19:47 |
| kanzure | bah | 19:47 |
| foucist | :P | 19:48 |
| Juul | prosterity | 19:48 |
| foucist | i googled 'posterity' and it didn't correct me | 19:49 |
| foucist | pos·ter·i·ty/päˈsteritē/ | 19:49 |
| foucist | Noun: | 19:49 |
| foucist | All future generations. | 19:49 |
| yashgaroth | hey, python programmers make money too right? that counts as prosperity | 19:49 |
| foucist | :) | 19:49 |
| foucist | they do! they make $100/hr! right? | 19:49 |
| yashgaroth | totally, rails is for suckers | 19:49 |
| kanzure | a bit more than that... | 19:49 |
| kanzure | rails programmers do even more | 19:50 |
| foucist | top ones do $150/hr on avg | 19:50 |
| foucist | but most rails coders only get about $75/hr | 19:50 |
| foucist | $50-75 | 19:50 |
| kanzure | i must be a top one | 19:51 |
| kanzure | hooray | 19:51 |
| foucist | you must be | 19:51 |
| foucist | how about js coders | 19:51 |
| foucist | ios coders | 19:51 |
| kanzure | objective c monkeys are paid $120-$175/hr | 19:51 |
| kanzure | javascript people vary since it goes from php coder quality to really really good coder | 19:51 |
| kanzure | and nothing in between. | 19:52 |
| foucist | yeah | 19:52 |
| foucist | kanzure: lets make an agreement.. you outsource your $150/hr work to me for $100/hr (you make $50/hr profit). i turn around and outsource it to someone willing to do it for $50/hr | 19:53 |
| foucist | it will work! | 19:54 |
| kanzure | unfortunately the lead time sucks | 19:54 |
| kanzure | basically it will be 3am some morning when i say "GO GO GO" | 19:54 |
| kanzure | and it will take you 2 weeks to find someone | 19:54 |
| Juul | kanzure, you know of anyone who needs really good javascript programming? | 19:54 |
| yashgaroth | fuck man, even directors in biotech barely make $120/hour...you guys make me sad | 19:54 |
| kanzure | Juul: yes | 19:54 |
| foucist | kanzure: :P | 19:54 |
| Juul | doot doot. i wish i had a more general work U.S. permit | 19:55 |
| Juul | U.S. work permit | 19:55 |
| yashgaroth | you on an H1B visa, juul? | 19:56 |
| Juul | yashgaroth, J-1 visiting scholar | 19:57 |
| Juul | mega-restricted | 19:57 |
| foucist | man, i'm a rails coder, probably have 2-3 years of experience under my belt, but a bit rusty and haven't built my skills that consistently (i.e. lacking js & bdd experience).. i wouldn't feel good charging more than $30-40/hr but i'd be uncomfortable working less than $30/hr as a contractor.. ) | 19:57 |
| Juul | i would have to transition to H1B | 19:57 |
| Juul | foucist, i was interviewing rails coders in Copenhagen last year (yeah ok Copenhagen) and most of them wouldn't even show up for an interview if it was less than $135 an hour | 19:58 |
| kanzure | nice | 19:58 |
| Juul | and the ones that did, turned out to suck | 19:58 |
| Juul | with the exception of one polish student | 19:58 |
| Juul | who didn't know what he was worth | 19:58 |
| Juul | (we paid him more than he asked for) | 19:58 |
| foucist | Juul: contract job or salaried? | 19:59 |
| Juul | foucist, contract, but the difference isn't as great in socialist Denmark since the state provides lots and lots of benefits | 20:00 |
| Juul | biggest difference is lack of paid vacation and no need for x-month notice upon termination | 20:00 |
| Juul | damn, caffeine is crazy when you only have it on rare occasions | 20:03 |
| Juul | i feel like a dense ball of focus and mental energy | 20:04 |
| kanzure | Juul: do some writing on the enzymaticsynthesis doc? :D | 20:05 |
| kanzure | http://github.com/kanzure/ezymaticsynthesis | 20:05 |
| kanzure | erm | 20:05 |
| Juul | kanzure, :) | 20:05 |
| kanzure | http://github.com/kanzure/enzymaticsynthesis | 20:05 |
| Juul | i have to finish a web app prototype for tomorrow, but if i have extra time after that and before i sleep, then i will | 20:05 |
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| Juul | my friends back in denmark started a danish EFF-type organization | 20:06 |
| Juul | BitBureauet | 20:06 |
| Juul | it's super effective! | 20:06 |
| kanzure | wait.. did you see my pokemon red disassembly | 20:07 |
| Juul | ...nooo? | 20:07 |
| Juul | was it... effective? | 20:07 |
| kanzure | Juul: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3473111 | 20:07 |
| kanzure | or maybe you're just quoting super effective for other reasons | 20:07 |
| Juul | i'm just being a meme-monkey | 20:08 |
| kanzure | aww. oh well. | 20:08 |
| kanzure | well anyway. working source code to pokemon red by yours truly. | 20:09 |
| Juul | you're iimarckus? | 20:09 |
| kanzure | no i'm the other committer | 20:09 |
| kanzure | http://bitbucket.org/kanzure/pokered/changesets | 20:09 |
| Juul | interesting. do you have a writeup on how you did it? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | nope | 20:10 |
| kanzure | basically there's a makefile and some asm | 20:10 |
| kanzure | the asm is compiled and then compared against the original rom | 20:10 |
| Juul | the assembly was difficult because it was highly compressed using unknown methods? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | the makefile passes only if the new rom is exactly the same as the original rom | 20:10 |
| kanzure | oh that thing from the HN comments? some of the graphics have weird compression | 20:11 |
| Juul | s/assembly/disassembly/ | 20:11 |
| kanzure | not all of the graphics are done yet; some are just 2 bits per pixel | 20:11 |
| kanzure | others are RLE-compressed | 20:11 |
| Juul | ok, i don't know much about gameboy disassembly, what is the challenging aspect? | 20:11 |
| kanzure | it's not that challenging it's just asm coding | 20:12 |
| kanzure | i wrote this disassembler that converts bytecode back into text | 20:12 |
| Juul | ooooh | 20:12 |
| kanzure | and then i annotate this | 20:12 |
| Juul | you wrote the disassembler | 20:12 |
| kanzure | and use variables and references | 20:12 |
| Juul | ok. got it. | 20:12 |
| kanzure | well sort of- the disassembler came *second* ;) | 20:12 |
| kanzure | (and there's other disassemblers that exist, but i don't like them) | 20:12 |
| Juul | ok | 20:12 |
| Juul | so you manually disassembled it | 20:12 |
| Juul | and then wrote a disassembler | 20:13 |
| kanzure | https://bitbucket.org/kanzure/pokered/raw/e66818b266cf/main.asm | 20:13 |
| kanzure | a disassembly dump is almost always unreadable junk | 20:13 |
| Juul | i seee | 20:13 |
| kanzure | so instead, you can imagine writing source code that compiles into the same thing | 20:13 |
| kanzure | using disassemblers to help you investigate portions of the original code | 20:13 |
| Juul | highly commented | 20:14 |
| Juul | impressive | 20:14 |
| kanzure | right :3 | 20:14 |
| Juul | and nintendo hasn't come after you | 20:14 |
| kanzure | no | 20:15 |
| Juul | like the big monolith of happy fun corporate evil that they are | 20:15 |
| kanzure | and the fbi hasn't come after me for other things either | 20:15 |
| Juul | hehe | 20:15 |
| Juul | ok | 20:15 |
| Juul | good good | 20:15 |
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| kanzure | tonight feels like a manga night :\ | 20:31 |
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| kanzure | lego hadron collider http://i.imgur.com/kJkMw.jpg | 20:51 |
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| ybit | 09:33 < kanzure> i wish my birthday parties were that cool | 20:51 |
| ybit | if people didn't think your bday occurred everyday, they might be that cool | 20:52 |
| kanzure | hey nobody seemed to notice the first ten times | 20:55 |
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| foucist | kanzure: why would they think that | 23:41 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 24 00:00:23 2012 | ||
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