| --- Log opened Tue Feb 28 00:00:29 2012 | ||
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| rdb | Yay, the ADS1192 breakout boards I ordered from a PCB manufacturer arrived | 05:01 |
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| chris_99 | that was for EEG stuff right rdb? | 05:11 |
| rdb | right | 05:12 |
| bkero | http://boingboing.net/2012/02/27/scientific-paper-of-the-day-h.html | 06:05 |
| bkero | You guys've seen that synthesizing pseudophedrine from meth, right? | 06:05 |
| bkero | *pseudoephedrine | 06:05 |
| rdb | chris_99, if you want a couple, PM me with your address info etc | 06:28 |
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| JayDugger | Hello, all. | 07:16 |
| kanzure | i thought you were dead | 07:20 |
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| kanzure | ntu/singapore diybio thing http://genewired.com/en/diy.html | 07:52 |
| bkero | kanzure: Darn, I was just over in Singapore a month ago, I wish you'd have told me :) | 07:53 |
| bkero | I was at the local hackerspace, but not this | 07:54 |
| kanzure | wish you would have told me you were in singapore | 07:57 |
| kanzure | HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO ROUTE EVERYONE WHEN I DON'T KNOW THEIR TRAVEL PLANS | 07:57 |
| kanzure | etc. | 07:57 |
| kanzure | but yeah their hackerspace is pretty chill | 07:58 |
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| bkero | kanzure: i'm in paris now, bay area next week for two weeks, london the week after that, argentina the week after that | 08:00 |
| kanzure | bkero: ok, in paris check out tmplab | 08:00 |
| kanzure | in london check out london hackspace (they have a diybio group) | 08:00 |
| kanzure | bay area is obvious - biocurious, techshop, noisebridge, shit lik that | 08:01 |
| kanzure | *like | 08:01 |
| bkero | yea | 08:01 |
| kanzure | argentina - a little trickier.. | 08:01 |
| bkero | buenos aires | 08:01 |
| kanzure | well if you hop coasts to chile, there's the startupchile program :P | 08:02 |
| kanzure | backyardbrains and a few others are hanging out there | 08:02 |
| bkero | cool | 08:02 |
| bkero | I'm definitely used to the startup culture, yea | 08:03 |
| bkero | but not in chile | 08:03 |
| bkero | I'm in BA for Mozcamp LATAM | 08:03 |
| kanzure | but really, try out tmplab and their diybio group | 08:03 |
| bkero | sure | 08:03 |
| bkero | They're having an open hack session tomorrow | 08:03 |
| bkero | I might swing by and see how far I can fumble aroundby not speaking french | 08:03 |
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| kanzure | http://www.thedailyaztec.com/2012/02/citizen-scientists-experiment-sans-lab/ | 08:50 |
| kanzure | http://tequals0.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/diybio-aseptic-technique-as-learned-by-pouring-plates/ | 08:50 |
| kanzure | 3 | 08:52 |
| ParahSailin_ | the bunsen burner for pouring plates is more or less mysticism | 08:53 |
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| delinquentme | <3 | 09:30 |
| delinquentme | C'MON! | 09:30 |
| * delinquentme wubbz | 09:30 | |
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| ParahSailin_ | . This would be | 09:57 |
| ParahSailin_ | a really cool designer probiotics that would benefit so many people, | 09:57 |
| ParahSailin_ | particularly those on high fat diets (obesity). | 09:57 |
| ParahSailin_ | grr, "high fat diet" does not cause obesity | 09:57 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: i have never seen a field so muddled with confusion as diet/nutrition | 09:57 |
| Coornail | that's a common misconception | 09:57 |
| * ParahSailin_ is paleo high fat all the way | 09:58 | |
| Coornail | yeah, and there is keto | 09:58 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: however, i think gut biotics is interesting | 09:58 |
| ParahSailin_ | gut flora has got to be important | 09:59 |
| kanzure | maybe not his particular goal (anti-obesity) but in theory fat absorption should be possible | 09:59 |
| kanzure | *fat digestion | 09:59 |
| kanzure | erm, some-sorta-lipid-metabolism | 09:59 |
| Coornail | there are tons of things that can go wrong there, so I would be carefult | 09:59 |
| Coornail | -t | 09:59 |
| Coornail | but definitely interesting | 10:00 |
| ParahSailin_ | i think that gut flora naturally equilibriates to optimally consume energy in the gut, so i dont think spiking the gut with new stuff would do much at all | 10:01 |
| ParahSailin_ | the host-colonist interactions are probably what determine the microbial ecology | 10:01 |
| ParahSailin_ | for example, hosts may have varying levels of short chain fatty acid transporters in the lumen | 10:02 |
| ParahSailin_ | any variation in those levels will alter the amount of acidogenesis and methanogenesis in the floral ecology | 10:03 |
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| kanzure | yet another proprietary web-EDA tool https://www.circuitlab.com/ | 10:33 |
| chris_99 | ooh interesting | 10:37 |
| chris_99 | great doesn't work for me | 10:37 |
| chris_99 | 'Error 403: Forbidden CSRF protection failure' | 10:37 |
| kanzure | are you using a weird browser? | 10:40 |
| kanzure | csrf is just this scheme where they embed something in the previous page that allows you to access the next page | 10:41 |
| kanzure | so if your browser sucks or breaks this process then when they check for the variable on the next page things go kaboom | 10:41 |
| chris_99 | nope, justFF | 10:41 |
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| archels | hahaha the word "flamoot" is banned on 4chan? | 11:05 |
| kanzure | ys | 11:06 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:06 |
| kanzure | because of ours truly. | 11:06 |
| archels | great stuff on [singularity]... | 11:06 |
| kanzure | archels: http://groups.google.com/group/singularity-aliens | 11:06 |
| archels | what, don't tell me you visit let alone post on 4chan? | 11:06 |
| kanzure | :P | 11:06 |
| kanzure | no it's not because of me, it's because of *him* | 11:07 |
| archels | right | 11:07 |
| kanzure | but yeah i was only on 4chan when it was cool | 11:07 |
| archels | It never ceases to amaze me though, the way the mind contorts to come up with a logical, integrative explanation for what is perceived. | 11:10 |
| archels | But from what I've read on the subject, for schizophrenics, the conclusion is somehow never 'I have schizophrenia', which is a little paradoxical. | 11:11 |
| archels | (Occam's razor) | 11:11 |
| kanzure | or schizophrenia sounds suspicious | 11:12 |
| kanzure | oh you mean there's a condition that causes voices in my head and delusions of persecution? HOW CONVENIENT | 11:12 |
| archels | I guess that's where the paranoia comes in. | 11:13 |
| delinquentme | kanz do you use haml / sass? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | yeah sometimes | 11:30 |
| kanzure | compass+sass or less or scss is really nice. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | well, sass/scss | 11:31 |
| kanzure | i don't even remember which one i prefer | 11:31 |
| kanzure | "The new main syntax (as of Sass 3) is known as “SCSS” (for “Sassy CSS”)," | 11:31 |
| kanzure | ah right. | 11:31 |
| delinquentme | curly brackets or not | 11:37 |
| delinquentme | none of my html.haml files are actually being parsed into .html | 11:37 |
| kanzure | do you have haml setup to be used in your rails asset pipeline | 11:38 |
| kanzure | TECHNOBABBLE GOES HERE | 11:39 |
| delinquentme | no i dont... | 11:39 |
| delinquentme | I mean all I need is the Gemfile spc | 11:39 |
| delinquentme | spec | 11:39 |
| delinquentme | rails 3.0.11 | 11:39 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: yeah you should setup haml first :P | 11:42 |
| kanzure | hmm http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/pQuery-0.07/lib/pQuery.pm | 11:59 |
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| delinquentme | LAWL rails kids get scared when i mention chemoinformatics =/ | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | just finished up a call w adobe | 13:40 |
| ThomasEgi | adobe? lemme guess. the phone-call crashed trice or more during the call :D | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | no but we needed to authenticate my photoshop key twice | 13:42 |
| uniqanomaly | right, pirates don't have to xD | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | she didnt think it was funny when i said YAR show me ur booty | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | worse when i realized she was a he | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | but then again... its in SF | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | 0=] | 13:45 |
| rdb | how do you mistake a woman for a man when you're on the phone with that person? | 14:03 |
| rdb | unless the line is really crappy or he has a quite effeminate voice | 14:04 |
| ThomasEgi | adobe.. anything's possible | 14:04 |
| rdb | then again, it's SF, so it's probably the effeminate voice | 14:04 |
| rdb | if we're going for stereotypes anyway. | 14:05 |
| rdb | *yawn* bedtime | 14:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: to be fair, python's cheminformatics libraries are way cooler | 14:17 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: photoshop validation is by pinging some remote host.. you can just add adobe's key servers to your /etc/hosts file and route it to localhost | 14:18 |
| kanzure | also you would need to use some key that looks potentially valid to photoshop | 14:22 |
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| delinquentme | oh i was joking about all of that :D | 14:28 |
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| kanzure | more about the federal research public access act: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=966 | 14:34 |
| kanzure | http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/research-work-act-dead-what-next/ | 14:34 |
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| kanzure | http://thecostofknowledge.com/ has been updated.. | 14:37 |
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| delinquentme | At Elsevier, we have always focused on serving the global research community and ensuring the best possible access to research publications and data. | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | lawl | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | lawl | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | is that like what legal advises them to do? | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | " lie right off the bat so theres no question " | 14:47 |
| kanzure | has anyone seen a good forced mind-uploading scifi story? | 14:47 |
| kanzure | and not one written by AlonzoTG | 14:48 |
| kanzure | :P | 14:48 |
| kanzure | for instance, mind-uploading-without-permission scenarios | 14:48 |
| kanzure | hmm i guess that's not descriptive enough either. i mean the sort of 'forced' in the same way that you can get robbed or have something copied without your permission | 14:49 |
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| Steel_ZZZ | kanzure: Eclipse Phase | 15:02 |
| Steel_ZZZ | which is explicitly written by hardline transhumanists | 15:02 |
| kanzure | that's an rpg | 15:03 |
| Steel_ZZZ | with short fiction | 15:03 |
| kanzure | meh | 15:03 |
| Etherael | What does this mean "hardline transhumanist" ? | 15:05 |
| jrayhawk | I hope it means they'll kill any filthy humanists or singulitarians who get in their way. | 15:06 |
| Etherael | Why would a singularitarian get in the way of a transhumanist? | 15:06 |
| kanzure | hahah for so many reasnos | 15:06 |
| kanzure | *reasons | 15:06 |
| Etherael | How so? | 15:06 |
| sylph_mako | I believe their central tennet was ensuring that the singularity goes in humanity's favor? | 15:07 |
| kanzure | any sufficiently enhanced being is a major risk to singularitarians | 15:07 |
| Etherael | Couldn't transhumanism be an outcome of a singularity that goes in favor of humanity? | 15:08 |
| jrayhawk | well, this depends on the particular singularity movement involved | 15:08 |
| sylph_mako | Humans tend to want things. Silly things. | 15:08 |
| kanzure | Etherael: "humanity" is quite an amorphous concept or identifier no? | 15:08 |
| Etherael | kanzure: I suppose, you could argue that the caterpillar does not want to become a butterfly and would wage war on the process, it would seem silly, but when it comes to humans I suppose silly is par for the course. | 15:09 |
| kanzure | what? | 15:09 |
| Etherael | caterpillars become butterflies, as humans would become transhumans. | 15:09 |
| kanzure | singularitarians feel that since butterflies can kill everyone, nobody should be a butterfly | 15:09 |
| kanzure | unless there's strict controls over the butterflying | 15:10 |
| Etherael | kanzure: That strikes me as quite strange. | 15:10 |
| kanzure | well duh | 15:10 |
| Steel_ZZZ | Etherael: Let's put it this way | 15:11 |
| Steel_ZZZ | people had trouble sleeping for days | 15:11 |
| Etherael | Do you think this negation of transhumanism is implicit to singularitarianism? | 15:11 |
| Steel_ZZZ | and panic attacks on less wrong | 15:11 |
| Steel_ZZZ | because someone posted something that put them into a logical loop | 15:11 |
| jrayhawk | Not implicit, merely very very very likely./ | 15:11 |
| Etherael | Before this discussion I would have thought the opposite way entirely. Interesting idea though. | 15:11 |
| kanzure | Etherael: i think siai is very much interested in preventing the creation of transhumanist beings | 15:11 |
| Etherael | Steel_ZZZ: What thing? | 15:12 |
| jrayhawk | The SIAI is not representitive of all singulatariainarnaiairnans | 15:12 |
| kanzure | ehh | 15:12 |
| kanzure | that's questionable joe.. | 15:12 |
| Steel_ZZZ | lemme find it Etherael | 15:12 |
| kanzure | wasn't 'singularitarianism' specifically defined/hijacked by eliezer | 15:12 |
| Etherael | kanzure: I still think that's inconsistent, siai is about progress, h+ is about progress.. they're glove in hand to my mind. | 15:12 |
| kanzure | Etherael: humanity+ is a horrible organization that you should forget about | 15:12 |
| Steel_ZZZ | http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/LessWrong#The_ugly the hilarious | 15:12 |
| kanzure | Etherael: siai is more about FAI | 15:12 |
| Etherael | I don't mean it in the sense of an organisation, but an idea. | 15:12 |
| Steel_ZZZ | kanzure, ethereal is talking about the philosophy of h+ I think | 15:12 |
| Steel_ZZZ | yeah | 15:13 |
| jrayhawk | I don't think he's in a position to do that. | 15:13 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: no really, i think eliezer defined that word and then his friends joined up and defined themselves and their philosophy as that | 15:13 |
| kanzure | right? | 15:13 |
| jrayhawk | "singularity" is a Vinge term. | 15:14 |
| kanzure | Etherael: siai is more about friendly ai calculus and existential risk calculus | 15:14 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: well sure | 15:14 |
| Steel_ZZZ | Friendly AI, however, was coined by EY | 15:14 |
| Etherael | kanzure: The idea that one could be for AI and yet against h+ because it is terribly dangerous is somewhat hilarious. | 15:14 |
| Steel_ZZZ | because humans are irrational, you see | 15:14 |
| kanzure | Etherael: they aren't for ai! they are for "do nothing until we figure out how to guarantee it's friendly" | 15:14 |
| Steel_ZZZ | and AI will be rational | 15:14 |
| jrayhawk | the SIAI isn't really "for AI" either | 15:14 |
| Steel_ZZZ | if we follow X Y and Z guidelines | 15:14 |
| kanzure | siai is not what you think it is :P and they don't try hard to hide it either | 15:14 |
| kanzure | i mean, it's not like it's a cover up or anything | 15:15 |
| kanzure | they are very explicit about their goals | 15:15 |
| Etherael | kanzure: That's kind of an interesting slant on being a luddite. | 15:15 |
| Steel_ZZZ | SIAI believes AI is inevitable, and it's their duty to prevent one that will accidentally wipe us out | 15:15 |
| jrayhawk | the public face of SIAI is first and formost humanist. | 15:15 |
| Etherael | We're all for these revolutionary ideas, but not until we can nail them down and define them so precisely that the chances of anything ever going wrong are precisely zero. | 15:15 |
| kanzure | they are /not/ for these revolutionary ideas | 15:15 |
| kanzure | although they are well versed in them | 15:15 |
| jrayhawk | Though I suspect distinction should be drawn between the public face of SIAI and what their long-term goals are. | 15:17 |
| Etherael | Steel_ZZZ: That future AI thing is ... what the fuck. | 15:17 |
| jrayhawk | Publicly they are humanist, but most of their associates are probably pro-AI. | 15:17 |
| kanzure | they are pro-FAI | 15:17 |
| Etherael | We shouldn't free the negroes until we can be certain that they will never rape our women. | 15:17 |
| kanzure | i don't think my brain counts as FAI so they will probably never be pro- transhumanist bryan | 15:17 |
| jrayhawk | I expect a lot of them are simply pro-AI. | 15:17 |
| jrayhawk | Etherael: haha, that's an awesome allegory | 15:18 |
| Etherael | I try. | 15:19 |
| jrayhawk | Anyway, I've heard people in here complain about the resources allocated to the AI-Singularity movement, and I'm sure there are plenty of AI-Singularity proponents that are complaining about resources being allocated to transhumanist interests, so there's plenty of room for conflict. | 15:20 |
| kanzure | i think i've more complained about their strategy than anything else | 15:21 |
| Steel_ZZZ | so I found out I have a 2nd degree contact with one of the guys who worked on the artificial cerebellum | 15:21 |
| Steel_ZZZ | in israel | 15:21 |
| Steel_ZZZ | gonna see if I can get him in here | 15:21 |
| kanzure | actually, i can't think of anyone in here who has directly criticized ai work other than AlonzoTG regarding mind uploading paranoia | 15:21 |
| jrayhawk | I like AI and fully expect it to destroy us all in 30-70 years. | 15:22 |
| kanzure | "i hate humans and fully expect one to kill us all in N years" | 15:23 |
| kanzure | same thing | 15:23 |
| jrayhawk | Well, it'd be a transhuman if anything. | 15:23 |
| kanzure | was hitler a transhuman | 15:23 |
| kanzure | oh god i afil | 15:23 |
| kanzure | *fail | 15:23 |
| Etherael | It wouldn't be the worst that could happen, humanity is a virus with shose. | 15:23 |
| Etherael | s/shose/shoes | 15:23 |
| Steel_ZZZ | man, everything's a virus by that perspective | 15:23 |
| jrayhawk | hooray i have a misanthrope buddy | 15:24 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: hitler isn't scalable | 15:24 |
| Etherael | congrats jh, that is about the most wtf comment I have heard in as long as I can remember. | 15:24 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 15:25 |
| Etherael | I am still trying to wrap my synapses around the actual semantics of it. | 15:25 |
| jrayhawk | hitler, stalin, and mao all had pretty similar death tolls, and all for mostly the same reasons, and were all self-limiting because of it. | 15:25 |
| Steel_ZZZ | also his methods didn't actually work | 15:25 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: my point is that a transhuman hitler would presumably be scalable, just like any uFAI | 15:26 |
| Etherael | jrayhawk: WHen you say "self limiting" you mean in terms of body counts or good results or bad results or funny tiny moustaches or human weakness exploiting rhetorical speeches or.. ? | 15:27 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, yes. | 15:27 |
| kanzure | Etherael: in terms of hitler transforming the world based on his intentions | 15:27 |
| jrayhawk | Or killing everyone. My statement applies to either one. | 15:27 |
| Etherael | But what is the assumption that his intentions were? | 15:28 |
| Etherael | Ah, killing everyone? was that really his intent? | 15:28 |
| jrayhawk | Nope! | 15:28 |
| kanzure | close enough? | 15:28 |
| Etherael | I wouldn't think so. | 15:28 |
| Etherael | What do you think his intentions really were? | 15:29 |
| Steel_ZZZ | improving the human race, wasn't it? | 15:29 |
| Steel_ZZZ | in a twisted ass way? | 15:29 |
| Etherael | I wonder if that information can ever even be accurately known, after all that has happened and all the obfuscation implicit in those circumstances. | 15:29 |
| jrayhawk | They wanted supreme agency. | 15:29 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: right | 15:29 |
| Etherael | Steel_ZZZ: I'm not sure.. What if he just wanted absolute power over everything, good old world domination? | 15:29 |
| Steel_ZZZ | they were also inspired by the way nietzsche's sister twisted his writings | 15:30 |
| Etherael | What would that have looked like? how would it have differed from a eugenic approach? | 15:30 |
| kanzure | so again | 15:30 |
| kanzure | this ties back to the whole siai/supreme agency against ai thing | 15:30 |
| Etherael | How so? | 15:30 |
| kanzure | (except nobody at siai is provably friendly either; and even if they were, i don't think i would care) | 15:30 |
| jrayhawk | Hmm. I should write an essay on this so I stop getting roped into long conversations about the basic framework. | 15:33 |
| jrayhawk | Also I should stop getting distracted by the internet and deal with damned invoices. | 15:33 |
| kanzure | haha you haven't done that yet? | 15:33 |
| kanzure | that was like four hours ago | 15:33 |
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| chris_99 | http://www.gizmag.com/biological-fuel-cells-use-blood-sugar/19261/ | 15:37 |
| Etherael | lose weight while charging your mobile phone | 15:38 |
| kanzure | Etherael: have you been here before | 15:38 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Only since yesterday when you invited me. | 15:38 |
| Etherael | Does anyone here have actual magnetic implants? | 15:45 |
| Steel_ZZZ | ianmathwiz, when he's around, does | 15:45 |
| Steel_ZZZ | you can ask in #biopunk | 15:45 |
| Etherael | What kind of sensitivity do they have to fields? I assume you couldn't feel like a wifi signal? | 15:46 |
| chris_99 | am i right in thinking they're essentially a tiny magnet implanted in your skin | 15:51 |
| Steel_ZZZ | yes | 15:52 |
| Steel_ZZZ | very small | 15:52 |
| Steel_ZZZ | veeeery small | 15:52 |
| chris_99 | heh | 15:52 |
| chris_99 | so not you're not going to be able to feel wifi Etherael | 15:53 |
| chris_99 | *no | 15:53 |
| Steel_ZZZ | although there's ways to hijack that | 15:53 |
| Etherael | So, is there actually any practical use? | 15:53 |
| Steel_ZZZ | you can use it as an interface | 15:53 |
| chris_99 | you could do that by attaching a radio reciever to a neuron ;) | 15:53 |
| Steel_ZZZ | solenoid around the implant finger, hook up sensor outputs to solenoid | 15:53 |
| Etherael | an interface to / from what? | 15:54 |
| chris_99 | you could stick metal objects to yourself | 15:54 |
| Etherael | Pockets do that, and objects don't even need to be metal. | 15:54 |
| Etherael | ;) | 15:55 |
| chris_99 | heh | 15:55 |
| kanzure | Etherael: it's more of a touchy-feely mod | 15:55 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Are there any mods that are useful at this stage that are deployed ? | 15:55 |
| chris_99 | coclear implants | 15:55 |
| chris_99 | (spelt wrong probably) | 15:55 |
| kanzure | other brain implants (sorta useful.. mostly not) | 15:55 |
| Etherael | cochlear, yeah, I knew a little girl who got one of those. | 15:56 |
| kanzure | all sorts of biological/genetic stuff | 15:56 |
| Etherael | I am pretty sure it required extensive medical consults and cost a ridiculous truckload of cash. | 15:56 |
| foucist | cochlear isn't a brain implant :P | 15:56 |
| chris_99 | why not? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | Etherael: foucist has one | 15:56 |
| chris_99 | it connects to the neurons of your brain does it not | 15:56 |
| foucist | the chip goes under the skin, on the skull, not in the brain.. and the wire goes into the ear | 15:56 |
| kanzure | ah, well | 15:57 |
| Etherael | Effectively it's a hearing aid, right? | 15:57 |
| foucist | chris_99: no, it goes near the neurons of the cochlea in the ear | 15:57 |
| kanzure | Etherael: regarding brain implants http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/neuro/implants/ | 15:57 |
| Steel_ZZZ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GeNhFdgn5s&feature=channel etherael | 15:57 |
| foucist | Etherael: yeah | 15:57 |
| kanzure | oh god | 15:57 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/ | 15:57 |
| kanzure | phew. | 15:57 |
| Steel_ZZZ | kanzure, lol. | 15:57 |
| foucist | kanzure: your macro broke ;) | 15:58 |
| foucist | (implying you need one heh) | 15:58 |
| kanzure | i am not a macro | 15:58 |
| Etherael | rapid response 360 degree magnetic sensor with a few meters range would be neat. | 15:58 |
| Etherael | not something that senses magnets. | 15:59 |
| Steel_ZZZ | ethereal: I believe they're working on that too | 15:59 |
| kanzure | who the hell is "they" | 15:59 |
| Etherael | something that tells you by magnetic force or vibration things are moving around you. | 15:59 |
| Etherael | THEY ARE ALL AROUND WAAATCHING | 15:59 |
| Steel_ZZZ | kanzure: the people at biohack.me | 15:59 |
| foucist | Etherael: why not echolocation | 16:00 |
| kanzure | Steel_ZZZ: so you mean ThomasEgi | 16:00 |
| ThomasEgi | huh? | 16:00 |
| Steel_ZZZ | there are some other people too I think? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | hi ThomasEgi | 16:01 |
| Etherael | foucist: That would be a sense method to use sound to bounce off objects? But the way to actually tell the user by interfacing with their senses where the objects are, are you suggesting an acoustic method for that too? | 16:01 |
| Steel_ZZZ | did you look at my youtube link, ethereal? | 16:01 |
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| kanzure | Steel_ZZZ: your youtube link was not very well named maybe you should describe it | 16:01 |
| Etherael | Steel_ZZZ: Yep, that's what made me think of the motion detection / location thing. | 16:01 |
| Steel_ZZZ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GeNhFdgn5s&feature=channel Is hooking up an ultrasonic ranger to a solenoid, which gives signal intensity to the implanted magnet based on distance from wall | 16:02 |
| Etherael | I don't have sound on, but it looked to me like he was using a device to detect walls / objects etc. | 16:02 |
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| foucist | Etherael: there's a blind guy that goes biking and does things most blind people can't, all with making a loud clicking sound and listening to the echoes | 16:02 |
| Etherael | foucist: Yeah i've heard of that, that I imagine has to be extremely hard for a normal person to learn how to do. | 16:02 |
| Etherael | also, the loud clicking sounds.. | 16:03 |
| Etherael | if you computerise it maybe you could use non audible frequencies / receivers and translate the information into something easier to interpret. | 16:03 |
| foucist | yeah its' extremely difficult, he teaches other blind people to do it and only very few end up actually doing the echolocation trick | 16:04 |
| Etherael | or maybe laser sweeps just make more sense. | 16:04 |
| Etherael | I'm not sure. | 16:04 |
| Steel_ZZZ | that follows along with what mokbortalon is working on Etherael, I think. | 16:04 |
| Etherael | wildly ad libbing. | 16:04 |
| Steel_ZZZ | hooking up sensors to fingertips | 16:04 |
| kanzure | Etherael: clearly the correct solution is the brainport :P | 16:04 |
| kanzure | (tongue electrode array) | 16:04 |
| ThomasEgi | hm i know one blind person that can snip with his fingers to locate at least walls | 16:04 |
| ThomasEgi | not good enoug for biking tho | 16:04 |
| ThomasEgi | but good enough for not hitting a wall in a building | 16:04 |
| foucist | ah | 16:04 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Actually that did cross my mind, tongue electrode, though I have to admit the entire idea of that interface strikes me as completely bizzarre. | 16:04 |
| Steel_ZZZ | which is why Mokbortolan_ wants to do it on fingertips | 16:05 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: don't they have sticks for that | 16:05 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, what's cooler. stick or click? | 16:05 |
| Etherael | How would you translate a coord in a 360 degree sphere to a fingertip signal? | 16:05 |
| ThomasEgi | a stick is very useful to find obstacles on the ground and near you. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | Etherael: http://web.archive.org/web/20101004022903/http://vision.wicab.com/technology/ | 16:05 |
| kanzure | they have since taken down their awesome images | 16:06 |
| foucist | stick is good for detecting sudden dropoffs (echolocation doesn't help much with that).. or for finding something that's infront of a wall.. since a wall can hide the echo | 16:06 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20101004022903im_/http://vision.wicab.com/media/vision_120x120.png | 16:06 |
| ThomasEgi | a sort of 360 range-finder should be very possible with a bunch of implants | 16:07 |
| Etherael | ThomasEgi: That's a 2d plane, a lot simpler to give information on than 360 sphere | 16:07 |
| ThomasEgi | well most of the time you dont need to worry about the stuff above you | 16:07 |
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| ThomasEgi | and for the stuff below you, only the thing rigth in front of your feet should matter . | 16:08 |
| ThomasEgi | the rest is pretty much a ring around you | 16:08 |
| Etherael | not disagreeing that the stick works just fine for most cases. | 16:08 |
| ThomasEgi | which could be aproximated by a small number of electrodes | 16:08 |
| ThomasEgi | lets say 1 for what is in front of your feet, and 7 for what is around you generally. | 16:09 |
| ThomasEgi | makes 8 small electrodes. | 16:09 |
| ThomasEgi | would be easy enough to place around your wrist or so. | 16:09 |
| Steel_ZZZ | spider sense :P | 16:09 |
| Etherael | 8 small vibrator motors per arm, as you move your hands the vibration gets more rapid the closer to an object you get... that would be somewhat intuitive I guess. | 16:10 |
| Etherael | you'd rapidly figure out how it worked and get a good sense of the motion of things around you without looking. | 16:11 |
| Etherael | wristband type setup | 16:11 |
| ThomasEgi | easiy enough to try. the sensors fit nicely inte a headband. | 16:11 |
| ThomasEgi | would spare you the trouble of surgery and building implants at first | 16:11 |
| Etherael | Yep, that too, harder to move your head than a hand though, and can't move two devices in opposite directions and infer information from difference in response. | 16:12 |
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| ThomasEgi | if you can use your hand. you probably want more like a virtual-range-finder | 16:12 |
| Etherael | also do not have excuse to make backwards hadouken type movements for amusement value. | 16:12 |
| ThomasEgi | rather than a 360 degree sense. | 16:12 |
| ThomasEgi | so one input would be good enough | 16:13 |
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| Etherael | Are nootropics the real deal? | 16:16 |
| Etherael | Anyone know from actual personal experience? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | Etherael: some of them vary between person to person | 16:16 |
| kanzure | some of them have pretty standard effects | 16:16 |
| Stee| | in addition, some are more powerful if you have mental issues or aging issues, as opposed to being bog standard brain | 16:17 |
| kanzure | Etherael: some good resources are imminst.org's forum and #reddit-nootropics | 16:17 |
| Stee| | and erowid | 16:17 |
| Stee| | though I'd be careful around imminst.org and erowid | 16:17 |
| Etherael | But noone here uses them? | 16:18 |
| Stee| | I use oxiracetam on occasion | 16:18 |
| Stee| | I'll do more when I start working with a stable paycheck | 16:18 |
| Stee| | Mokbortolan_ uses a lot of shit | 16:18 |
| kanzure | Etherael: i am also a regular user | 16:18 |
| kanzure | fenn takes shit by the handful | 16:18 |
| kanzure | uhh who else | 16:18 |
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| kanzure | well anyway. lots of people. | 16:18 |
| Etherael | kanzure: What do you use and why? | 16:18 |
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| kanzure | adderall | 16:18 |
| kanzure | i use it to win in typing competitions http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure | 16:19 |
| kanzure | ... kidding. | 16:19 |
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| Etherael | What I mean is there are different types of thinking one does, so "thinking enhancement" is kind of generic. | 16:20 |
| Etherael | Grind work, creative work, etc etc. | 16:20 |
| kanzure | sure.. | 16:20 |
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| kanzure | but the brain isn't segmented into sections like that | 16:20 |
| Etherael | so nootropics typically work by "improving brain function" is the way you perceive it as a user? | 16:21 |
| kanzure | some regions of the brain are usefully segmented. like the visual cortex and auditory stuff obviously. | 16:21 |
| kanzure | Etherael: that's a really generic term | 16:21 |
| Stee| | there's anecdotal evidence for how noots work | 16:21 |
| Stee| | like, supposedly oxi works better on concrete thinking, etc. | 16:21 |
| kanzure | what the hell is "concrete thinking" | 16:21 |
| kanzure | sounds very abstract to me | 16:21 |
| Stee| | math, etc. | 16:21 |
| Stee| | it was very abstract | 16:21 |
| Stee| | erowid reports, etc. | 16:21 |
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| Steel_Dance | bbl | 16:22 |
| kanzure | Etherael: but yes in many cases it can be just a placebo effect | 16:22 |
| Etherael | Hmm. | 16:23 |
| Etherael | Sometimes I feel like what I really need is wake up and motivate self in a can. | 16:25 |
| Etherael | especially at 10am. | 16:25 |
| * Etherael yawns | 16:25 | |
| delinquentme | Etherael, you're just waking up? cool! you need motivation? | 16:28 |
| delinquentme | what do you want to be motivated to do? | 16:28 |
| Etherael | Code a project the client can't make up their mind about what they want it to look like. ;) | 16:29 |
| Etherael | So I have to remove the fact that anything I do, they will just change later, and I will have to redo, from my awareness. | 16:29 |
| Etherael | I am trying to pick tickets that will not change regardless of what they decide. | 16:30 |
| Etherael | But then this is estimating human behaviour to figure that out, and humans mystify me. | 16:31 |
| kanzure | Etherael: you should not be in love with your product | 16:32 |
| kanzure | Etherael: just be in love with charging them for doing it multiple times over | 16:32 |
| Etherael | kanzure: There is that. | 16:32 |
| kanzure | the reality is that i've spent many thousands of hours on products that i don't own | 16:32 |
| kanzure | .. in exchange for monies. | 16:32 |
| kanzure | Etherael: what sorta thing are you building? | 16:33 |
| Etherael | kanzure: more or less a recruitment site. | 16:33 |
| kanzure | fun times | 16:33 |
| kanzure | well, let me know if you ever need an extra hand | 16:34 |
| Etherael | you do rails too kan? | 16:34 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:34 |
| Etherael | alrighty, I'll keep it in mind. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | Etherael: i've been doing android/ios apps, rails, django and all sorts of other horrible frameworks | 16:34 |
| kanzure | facebook apps! i regret this | 16:35 |
| Etherael | haha.. "other horrible frameworks" applies to rails, django, or both? | 16:35 |
| kanzure | well | 16:35 |
| kanzure | they do their job i guess | 16:35 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Cheer up, here's some kpop to distract you from the pain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-SxcCO5d0 | 16:35 |
| kanzure | at the moment i'm writing javascript | 16:36 |
| Etherael | to do what? | 16:36 |
| kanzure | scraping | 16:36 |
| kanzure | http://phantomjs.org/ | 16:36 |
| kanzure | it's this thing for the fashion industry | 16:36 |
| Etherael | Hmm, sounds a bit like watir. | 16:37 |
| Etherael | refer a friend, I should do refer a friend, what recruiting site will not have refer a friend, that will be in there no matter what! | 16:38 |
| kanzure | one of the weirdest things i've noticed lately is that people have been really lax about their recruiting-upon-sign-up policies | 16:39 |
| kanzure | linkedin and social networks always spammed your entire address book to join | 16:39 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Maybe they're getting used to the fact that doing that REALLY MAKES PEOPLE ANGRY | 16:39 |
| Etherael | like hulk smash angry | 16:39 |
| kanzure | from what i've heard, it only makes programmers angry | 16:39 |
| Etherael | like post on every social media outlet how annoying company X is. | 16:39 |
| kanzure | sure, it makes me furious too | 16:40 |
| kanzure | but there used to be all this jazz about "being viral" | 16:40 |
| kanzure | and to some extent people still talk about that | 16:40 |
| kanzure | but when the apps get launched, there's no features supporting a viral coefficient going on | 16:40 |
| Etherael | Yes well, that's people for you isn't it? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | i guess google has been doing it with invites that they let users have | 16:41 |
| kanzure | but that's a scarcity thing | 16:41 |
| Etherael | their invite thing is annoying, it means that by the time everyone you want to use x with is finally online, x is no longer interesting and everyone you know who was there to begin with has gone onto y | 16:42 |
| Etherael | Have there been any transhumanist forays into body temperature control? | 16:45 |
| kanzure | air conditioning | 16:45 |
| Etherael | beyond the smacks-one-in-the-face-with-bleeding-obviousness ?:) | 16:46 |
| kanzure | there's this one transhumanist who has a paranoid delusion about suppressed body temperature control research, if that counts | 16:47 |
| kanzure | (something about optimal body temperatures and such) | 16:47 |
| Etherael | Not sure if you are joking? | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i am not joking | 16:48 |
| Etherael | What the actual fuck? | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i don't know if it counts as a delusion or not | 16:48 |
| kanzure | but he sure likes to spam about it | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i could email you some stuff he sent out a few years ago | 16:49 |
| Etherael | sounds like pure woo? | 16:49 |
| ThomasEgi | Etherael, body temperature controll is, by nature, so awesome. you can hardly match up with any tricks | 16:50 |
| ThomasEgi | except you grow thick fat fur in case you live on a glacier^ | 16:50 |
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| Etherael | ThomasEgi: How about adiabatic refridgeration elemental inserts for clothing when it's hot and you don't want to get sweaty and smelly? | 16:51 |
| Etherael | s/dger/ger/ | 16:51 |
| kanzure | i haven't figured out if there's a way to reset a person's "comfort" temperature | 16:52 |
| Etherael | or for people that just flat prefer lower body temperatures. | 16:52 |
| kanzure | i know some people that are more comfortable at 90F than 70F | 16:52 |
| Etherael | kanzure: it's interesting they vary so widely. | 16:52 |
| kanzure | and either way the internal temp is around 98F anyway.. | 16:52 |
| Etherael | I prefer constant 16c, which is way too cold for most everyone. | 16:53 |
| kanzure | but clearly the body works harder for the person at 70F (otherwise they would consider it comfortable) | 16:53 |
| kanzure | or the other way around (someone who sweats heavily at 90F) | 16:53 |
| kanzure | i figure it's probably a thyroid thing | 16:54 |
| kanzure | or thalamic thing | 16:54 |
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| ThomasEgi | Etherael, tried to check out zeolith ? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | wait, no | 16:54 |
| kanzure | not thyroid/thalamic | 16:54 |
| Etherael | ThomasEgi: Never heard of it. | 16:55 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_hypothalamus | 16:55 |
| kanzure | ok anterior hypothalamic :P | 16:55 |
| ParahSailin_ | http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/why-anti-authoritarians-are-diagnosed-as-mentally-ill/ | 16:58 |
| Etherael | ParahSailin: What did you think? | 16:58 |
| ParahSailin_ | play with the thyroid to change the temperature set point | 16:59 |
| ParahSailin_ | havent finished it | 16:59 |
| ParahSailin_ | though i wonder how many shrinks actually have adhd and use amphetamines as a lifestyle | 16:59 |
| Etherael | When I was a kid psychologists had one of the highest suicide rates of any profession. | 17:00 |
| Etherael | I wonder if that's still true. | 17:00 |
| kanzure | you mean psychologists treated people who went on to kill themselves? | 17:01 |
| kanzure | seems kinda likely? | 17:01 |
| Etherael | No, I mean they killed themselves at a higher rate than any other profession. | 17:01 |
| kanzure | they should stop killing each other. | 17:02 |
| Etherael | Which is not a bad example for irony if you think about it. | 17:02 |
| kanzure | oh right suicide | 17:02 |
| kanzure | that kinda ruines my comment | 17:02 |
| Etherael | I think humanity as a species isn't really of the standard necessary for the forcible labelling of other people as mentally ill. | 17:03 |
| kanzure | Etherael: there are some things that go very wrong in brains | 17:03 |
| kanzure | strokes are almost universally agreed upon to be a bad thing and an illness | 17:04 |
| Etherael | Motherfucker can sit around all day jacking off to jersey shore and looking forward to friday night football and say prayers before bed to an imaginary god every day and have guilt attacks over sexual urges and be considered completely sane. | 17:04 |
| kanzure | who considers that sane? | 17:04 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Normal people. | 17:04 |
| kanzure | uh | 17:04 |
| Etherael | the difference between paranoid delusions and religion is social acceptability. | 17:05 |
| kanzure | according to what, your news channel? | 17:05 |
| Etherael | kanzure: According to just looking around at how people behave and what they profess to believe and enjoy. | 17:05 |
| kanzure | maybe you need to surround yourself with different people | 17:05 |
| Etherael | I do, but though you don't run with sheep that doesn't mean you don't see them. | 17:06 |
| Etherael | You really don't think such people exist? | 17:06 |
| kanzure | none of my plans or aspirations particularly depend on those people existing or not | 17:06 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Same, but that doesn't change the fact that those people are kind of archetypal for our species. | 17:07 |
| Etherael | That kind of species is not in a position to forcibly deem someone mentally ill. | 17:07 |
| kanzure | so do you think strokes and brain tumors aren't illnesses? | 17:07 |
| Etherael | I do actually, and I can acknowledge a stroke can result in a person who is unable to protest at being labelled as mentally malfunctioning, ergo by some extension you could argue that it's the same kind of thing. | 17:08 |
| kanzure | or is your argument that only a completely perfect brain can discriminate between operational and inoperational brain tissues | 17:08 |
| Etherael | But I mean more along the lines of homosexuals in the 50's being labelled as mentally hill. | 17:08 |
| Etherael | s/hill/ill | 17:08 |
| Etherael | and now, as the pasted article says, anti-authoritarians and oppositional defiant disorder. | 17:09 |
| kanzure | s/inoperational/non-operational | 17:09 |
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| Etherael | kanzure: My objection isn't to strokes or brain damage, it's to pathologising mental behaviour that does not match "normality" but is voluntary / consensual. | 17:11 |
| Etherael | I'd posit if you're alive today and not questioning authority that is more a symbol of brain damage than questioning it at all. | 17:12 |
| Etherael | but once again, that's subjective and I don't go around trying topetition to have crazy obedient types institutionalised. | 17:12 |
| Etherael | Anyway, </rant> | 17:12 |
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| kanzure | Etherael: i'd just like to point out that to have them institutionalized you'd be demonstrating an obedient behavior with said institution | 17:13 |
| kanzure | just saying.. | 17:13 |
| kanzure | there is nothing wrong with something being subjective | 17:13 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Except when you pretend it's objective. | 17:14 |
| Etherael | Like homosexuals are objectively mentally ill. | 17:14 |
| Etherael | or people that don't agree with authority are objectively mentally ill. | 17:14 |
| Etherael | etc etc. | 17:14 |
| kanzure | no, you said "But that's subjective" (on your own part) | 17:14 |
| Etherael | Which was just hedging so I don't look like the same behaviour I'm criticising. | 17:15 |
| kanzure | you are pathologising this form of pathologising and so it's sort of a contradiction | 17:15 |
| Etherael | It would be if I were saying it was objective, which is why I said it's not. :") | 17:15 |
| kanzure | on an unrelated note, do you consider yourself elitist | 17:15 |
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| Etherael | hmmm. | 17:16 |
| Etherael | I guess it depends how you define elitist. | 17:16 |
| kanzure | this answer will in no way affect your final score | 17:16 |
| Etherael | I think the divine right of kings, and any derivation of power or authority along those lines, is retarded. | 17:16 |
| kanzure | sure | 17:17 |
| Etherael | blood aristocracy, all that kind of thing. | 17:17 |
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| Etherael | at the same time, I think it's somewhat stupid that people desperately cling to the notion that all men are created equal when it is so obviously not true | 17:17 |
| kanzure | Etherael: what the hell does equal mean | 17:18 |
| Etherael | kanzure: with equal potential. | 17:18 |
| kanzure | that doesn't answer my question | 17:18 |
| kanzure | this sounds made up | 17:18 |
| Etherael | How so? | 17:18 |
| Etherael | What sounds made up? | 17:18 |
| kanzure | there's a no philosophy rule in here, and that sounds verging close to philosophy | 17:19 |
| Etherael | What does? | 17:19 |
| kanzure | your "compare two people to determine relative 'equal potential' status of both bodies" | 17:19 |
| foucist | the most common form of elitism that i see is smart people thinking everyone else is dumb or stupid | 17:20 |
| Etherael | foucist: Everyone? or just most people? or a lot of people? where is the barrier between elitist and observant? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | i agree in theory that rights are an interesting concept but the reality is that "rights" is a social construct, not a physical implementation except in brainstuff | 17:20 |
| kanzure | (so please don't propagate the lie that it's a thing) | 17:21 |
| Etherael | kanzure: I don't see that lack of equality of opportunity amongst humans in terms of abilities either physical and/or mental should discount the rights of any humans. | 17:21 |
| kanzure | i guess this is my fault for mentioning the word "rights" | 17:21 |
| kanzure | but that's probably what you meant when you said "created equal" | 17:21 |
| Etherael | You have the right to compose Mozart's requiem, but you won't, because you're not mozart. | 17:22 |
| kanzure | um | 17:22 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm gonna call BS on that | 17:22 |
| Etherael | kanzure: There have been societies through history where such rights were not given, people did what their fathers did, etc. | 17:22 |
| kanzure | why are you taking rights as axiomatic | 17:22 |
| kanzure | you just said it's stupid that people cling to this concept | 17:23 |
| kanzure | bleh | 17:23 |
| Etherael | the concept of humans being created equal has nothing to do with what rights a human ought to have. | 17:23 |
| kanzure | ok so then you disagree that "created equal" means "rights" | 17:23 |
| Etherael | Correct. | 17:23 |
| kanzure | well, my fault for bringing that up | 17:24 |
| kanzure | anyway, why do you take it axiomatic that 'being able to equate humans' is a thing | 17:24 |
| Etherael | I forgive you. | 17:24 |
| kanzure | i don't even know the scale of monstrosity that it would entail to be able to compare whether or not a person is equal to another | 17:24 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Because you can tell that lance armstrong would kick my ass in the tour de france, or I am misunderstanding the question. | 17:24 |
| kanzure | Human.__cmp__ | 17:25 |
| kanzure | is not a thing.. there's no __cmp__ function except as a philosophy concept that people relay to each other through speech | 17:25 |
| kanzure | this just sounds all broken to me | 17:25 |
| Etherael | kanzure: So you're positing it is completely impossible to compare any aspect of one human with another? | 17:25 |
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| kanzure | i think you're arguing for some intrinsic valuation function, and you can't prove that it exists | 17:26 |
| kanzure | you can measure how fast lance does his things, this is true | 17:27 |
| Etherael | I'm not arguing for any intrinsic valuation function or trying to enshrine the creation of any such thing, I'm just pointing out that I will never be as good at lance armstrong at riding a bike, and that was always going to be the case. | 17:27 |
| Etherael | and there are many permutations of that same idea amongst any given combination of humans and abilities. | 17:27 |
| kanzure | that sounds anti-transhumanist heh | 17:27 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Ah, but at that phase would I cease to be "me" ? | 17:28 |
| kanzure | god damn it this is why i say no philosophy | 17:28 |
| kanzure | i'm not going to babysit you while you fix your identity crises :P | 17:28 |
| Etherael | Not rhetorical though, because any supposed h+ enhancement to me could also apply to him. | 17:28 |
| Etherael | and anyway, we're not yet living in a h+ world. | 17:29 |
| Etherael | so the question of equality is still relevant. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | o___o equality is just made up stuff though | 17:29 |
| kanzure | you cannot physically measure whether or not someone is "equal" to someone else | 17:29 |
| kanzure | this is all just philosophical masturbation | 17:29 |
| Etherael | You can in certain aspects. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | what, counting atoms and electrons? | 17:30 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure that's thermodynamically impossible or something | 17:30 |
| kanzure | maxwell's demon and such | 17:30 |
| Etherael | My best friend in high school was a great guy, friendly and quite pleasant to be around and such, but when we were still copping pop quizes and spelling tests in our tenth year of school, he asked me how to spell "fridge". | 17:31 |
| Etherael | and it wasn't that he was lazy, he'd try to think, he was just not very smart. | 17:31 |
| Etherael | you could see that, fuck, he acknowledged it even. | 17:31 |
| Etherael | to say you can't notice that is to ignore reality, isn't it? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | "smart" and "iq" is another thing i have a grudge against, sorry | 17:32 |
| kanzure | bad example for you to pick | 17:32 |
| kanzure | i'm just being difficult | 17:32 |
| Etherael | sure, plenty of room to sway and pick what is a delimiter for smart, but there are certain core facts that when confronted, might be a good indication that the subject in question is not smart. | 17:33 |
| kanzure | if i show you a brain will you point me to the Smart | 17:33 |
| Etherael | difficult is good, one does not sharpen a knife in fairy floss. | 17:33 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_psychology | 17:33 |
| kanzure | "Folk psychology embraces everyday concepts like “beliefs”, "desires”, “fear”, and “hope"." | 17:33 |
| kanzure | *and intelligence | 17:33 |
| kanzure | "non-critical postulation" | 17:34 |
| Etherael | kanzure: What do you think not being able to spell fridge after 10 years of schooling and at 15 years of age is indicative of if not learning difficulties? | 17:34 |
| kanzure | had he ever seen the word 'fridge' before? | 17:34 |
| Etherael | Yes. | 17:35 |
| kanzure | was he a good speller? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | spellcaster | 17:35 |
| kanzure | from now on i will call spellers, spellcasters | 17:36 |
| Etherael | He was not good academically in anything. | 17:36 |
| kanzure | i don't care about academic performance | 17:36 |
| Etherael | well I don't know what else to call it, not good with using his mind? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | spelling is not necessarily an academic thing, this is why i wasn't interested in your academic response to my question about spelling :P | 17:37 |
| Etherael | kanzure: I'd put this to you, it is not elitist of lance armstrong to say that he can ride a bike better than me, and not elitist of me to say that I can spell better than this fellow. | 17:37 |
| kanzure | there's lots of research around spelling and certain brain regions, but adding in school is a hugely complexing factor | 17:38 |
| Etherael | but some would disagree. | 17:38 |
| Etherael | so when you say "are you an elitist" that's really what I was getting at. | 17:38 |
| kanzure | Etherael: maybe you should say "and not elitist of me to say that I have spelled better" | 17:38 |
| Etherael | kanzure: FORESOOTH YE SWAB? | 17:38 |
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| kanzure | it sounds fairly elitist to assume or assert that you have greater spelling potential | 17:39 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Are you an elitist? | 17:39 |
| kanzure | nope | 17:39 |
| kanzure | *for whatever the hell "spelling potential" is | 17:39 |
| Etherael | kanzure: So you could ride a bike better than lance armstrong? ;) | 17:39 |
| Juul | defeatist elitist | 17:39 |
| kanzure | i mean, if you were challenging him ("i'll spell better than you at any time") that's certainly fine... normal social thing to do heh | 17:39 |
| Etherael | I didn't say a thing to him about it at the time or ever, I just told him how to spell it. | 17:40 |
| kanzure | Etherael: theoretically, yes i can think of many ways i could do that (but i'd probably violate the biking rule book) | 17:40 |
| Etherael | I don't see the point rubbing a person's nose in their inadequacies. | 17:40 |
| Juul | kanzure, just define your own plausible version of better and you're good :) | 17:40 |
| Etherael | kanzure: it wouldn't so much be "you" "riding" "a bike" better than "lance armstrong" anymore, though, yes. That's kinda my point. | 17:40 |
| kanzure | Etherael: you have a really strange/fascinating innate value theory | 17:41 |
| Etherael | kanzure: How so? | 17:41 |
| kanzure | well i guess lots of people share it | 17:41 |
| kanzure | so maybe i shouldn't find it so strange | 17:41 |
| Etherael | I don't even know if I'd call it an innate value theory so much as recognising that reality is much divorced from common human perception in this particular area. | 17:43 |
| kanzure | the "reality" is that you know very little about the reality of your friend's brain | 17:44 |
| Etherael | I don't know what's behind the curtain, but I can see the results. | 17:44 |
| kanzure | that sounds useless for judging whether or not he is "created equal" to you | 17:44 |
| kanzure | (and plus i also disagree about the necessity of a Human::__compare__ operator anyway) | 17:45 |
| Etherael | It's not comparing humans, it's comparing abilities of humans. | 17:45 |
| Etherael | or in this case I suppose the potential abilities of humans. | 17:46 |
| Juul | good luck agreeing on a measurement standard | 17:46 |
| kanzure | Juul: i'm trying to convince him that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_psychology is a bad idea | 17:46 |
| kanzure | Juul: i am not succeeding | 17:47 |
| Etherael | You are not succeeding because that is not what you are doing. | 17:47 |
| kanzure | s/idea/plan | 17:47 |
| Etherael | It would be easy to convince me I was wrong, just prove all humans are alike with the exception of environmental differences and one can be freely substituted for another. | 17:48 |
| kanzure | huh? | 17:48 |
| Etherael | If all people are created equal that ought to be doable, no? | 17:48 |
| kanzure | that's still taking full-person-comparison as axiomatic | 17:48 |
| kanzure | see i don't understand why you assume that | 17:49 |
| kanzure | "craeted equal" is just a really vague concept | 17:49 |
| Etherael | No it isn't, it's taking as axiomatic that people can be more or less suited for a given role. | 17:49 |
| Juul | i still don't know what you're talking about, and now it seems that you don't agree on what you're talking about, so i think i'll sit this one out | 17:49 |
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| kanzure | Juul: yeah this is sort of my fault for not kicking myself out when i started to talk abotu philosophy | 17:49 |
| Etherael | for that axiom to be untrue you would just need to demonstrate that people can be substituted for any role without regard to the more or less suited modifier. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | you don't know the future so how would you ever have a priori knowledge about a person's suitability | 17:51 |
| kanzure | and using prior experience does not give you a prior knowledge of the future | 17:51 |
| kanzure | so don't try that. | 17:51 |
| kanzure | *a priori | 17:51 |
| Etherael | kanzure: well in practice, that's exactly what people do. Hmm, you were a hungry jacks cashier and now you want to be an astrophysicist, cool, can't judge future performance from past behaviour ergo you're in! Doesn't happen, does it? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | so you're saying a cashier can't study astrophysics? | 17:52 |
| Etherael | I'm comparing silly stereotypes the make a basic point that the behaviour you're saying is never done is in fact always done. | 17:53 |
| Etherael | If you were to interview for a job tomorrow, they would want to know what you've done in the past. | 17:53 |
| Etherael | they would judge your suitability for the role based upon that. | 17:53 |
| Etherael | etc etc etc. | 17:53 |
| Etherael | this is perfectly normal and uncontroversial. | 17:53 |
| kanzure | i don't care about their internal models of judgment and value theories | 17:53 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Whether you care or not, you can acknowledge that your retail clerk will not be CEO of Deutsche Bank tomorrow, yes/no? | 17:54 |
| kanzure | i mean, i do when i find it necessary to attempt to understand them | 17:54 |
| kanzure | Etherael: that's still a probability | 17:54 |
| Etherael | kanzure: And the universe may spawn a strangelet which will consume us all within the next ten seconds, also. | 17:54 |
| kanzure | you could ask me to predict the future and whether he'll ever touch money again.. same type of question, i still don't have a priori knowledge of the future | 17:54 |
| Juul | seems the Raspberry Pi is going on sale this evening | 17:55 |
| Etherael | and yet, you can predict the likelihood of certain occurrences based upon past experiences all the same. | 17:55 |
| kanzure | and thus i should say objectively that your friend is stupid? | 17:55 |
| kanzure | there's so many assumptions going into that | 17:55 |
| kanzure | it really doesn't matter that much | 17:55 |
| Etherael | Thus you should say that it is more likely that stephen hawking will write a book on theoretical physics than that my friend will. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | and so you use to create a value function that you compute your model of your friend against? | 17:56 |
| kanzure | i.e. for more/less potential | 17:56 |
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| kanzure | why not help him write a physics book | 17:56 |
| kanzure | bleh | 17:57 |
| Etherael | kanzure: With regards to "likelyhood of writing a theoretical physics book" sure. | 17:57 |
| Etherael | Because he doesn't even want to write a theoretical physics book! and if I did help him, I'd basically be ghostwriting it for him, and even I couldn't pull it off to be frank, and given all that, why would it happen? | 17:57 |
| kanzure | because you were trying to prove a point about him being incapable of doing it or something | 17:57 |
| Etherael | kanzure: And I would prove myself wrong by acting on his behalf in order to prove my original statement he was incapable of doing such a thing wrong because.... ? :) | 17:58 |
| kanzure | i think calling your observations of past behavior the same thing as empirical knowledge of other performance modes, to be the same thing as a certain irrational line of thinking that i can't remember the name of | 18:00 |
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| Etherael | Hold the phone | 18:01 |
| ParahSailin_ | So, for example, they may take Adderall (an amphetamine prescribed for ADHD), but they know that their attentional problem is not a result of a biochemical brain imbalance but rather caused by a boring job. << agree | 18:01 |
| Etherael | Isn't observations of past behaviour almost the definition of empirical? | 18:02 |
| kanzure | Etherael: "whether or not he's good at spelling in this one particular instance" => making broad statements about his tendency to work on astrophysics | 18:03 |
| kanzure | that's not an empirical jump | 18:03 |
| Etherael | kanzure: I'll put it this way, do you find the idea that humans may not all be created equal offensive, or just inaccurate? | 18:03 |
| kanzure | i find the idea of 'equality' to be inaccurate | 18:04 |
| kanzure | in that political sense | 18:04 |
| Etherael | Well then you kind of disagree with both perspectives innately don't you? | 18:04 |
| kanzure | pretty much | 18:04 |
| Etherael | I don't have any particular problem with that position. | 18:05 |
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| Etherael | My problem is only with the idea that A) humans *ARE* comparable and B) it turns out they're equal. | 18:05 |
| kanzure | what did that wikipedia article call it? "non-critical postulation" | 18:05 |
| Etherael | If you want to posit A, I posit B is absurd. | 18:05 |
| Etherael | If you don't want to posit B, then there's no real conversation. | 18:06 |
| kanzure | i could also posit that humans have Nordquads and that i have the most nordquads of them all | 18:06 |
| Etherael | (don't want to posit A I should say) | 18:06 |
| Etherael | kanzure: ATV's are good for the snowy nordics, sure. | 18:06 |
| kanzure | good ol' norquads | 18:06 |
| Etherael | kanzure: But the point is you don't want to posit A, and that being the case, I don't even particularly want to convince you it's true. | 18:07 |
| Etherael | I can accept that it isn't an objective certainty. | 18:07 |
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| Juul | you know who else compared people: Nazis! | 18:10 |
| * Juul ArgumentSlayer | 18:10 | |
| Etherael | It's a good thing you weren't in the debate since you would just have godwin'd yourself. | 18:10 |
| kanzure | transhuman hitler is not amused | 18:11 |
| kanzure | or er maybe he is i'm not sure which way it's supposed to go | 18:11 |
| Etherael | kanzure: You know. | 18:11 |
| Etherael | the idea that you can't tell if anything is better or worse between two humans, isn't that somewhat contradictory to the entire point of transhumanism? | 18:11 |
| Etherael | If you have standard for improvement, how do you know you're improving? | 18:11 |
| kanzure | comparing whether or not someone has "greater potential" than the other just sounds bogus to me | 18:12 |
| kanzure | what the hell is potential anyway, potential energy? kinetic energy? | 18:12 |
| Etherael | kanzure: Aha, so not equality of outcome, but equality of opportunity comparisons. | 18:12 |
| kanzure | Etherael: yes improvement measurement is definitely a difficult thing. ultimately it doesn't matter how much you can lift or how fast you can run with bipedal action | 18:12 |
| kanzure | but being able to lift more is of course useful in many imaginable situations | 18:13 |
| Etherael | kanzure: It might be if you have to lift a car off a dying woman or outrun a tiger on the african plains. | 18:13 |
| Juul | is there a cishumanist movement? | 18:13 |
| Etherael | Juul: What would that entail? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | Etherael: being able to lift more doesn't necessarily contribute towards further ability to do improvements | 18:14 |
| Etherael | you don't have to tell me, and yes, it does exist http://cishumanism.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/welcome-to-cishumanist-movement.html | 18:14 |
| kanzure | however, i agree with you that being able to lift more is useful | 18:14 |
| kanzure | although there's probably some depreciating returns at some point (lifting a planet on the surface of the sun, and such) | 18:14 |
| Juul | haha | 18:15 |
| Juul | "The development of technologies to enhance the human condition will lead to unprecedented divides between the rich and the poor" | 18:15 |
| kanzure | the rich/poor thing makes a lot of assumptions about money/economics | 18:16 |
| kanzure | in reality you can make el cheapo thermocyclers while everything commercial is hundreds of times more expensive | 18:16 |
| Etherael | That sure does sound like an argument that could be applied to halt the advancement of just about anything. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | if they are upset that transhumanist tech would be patented / trade secrets, that's a valid concern | 18:16 |
| Etherael | NO LEAVING THE DARK AGES, THINK ABOUT THE RICH POOR GAP | 18:16 |
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| Juul | what about "The development of technologies to enhance the human condition _has_ lead to unprecedented divides between the rich and the poor" | 18:16 |
| kanzure | who cares, the poor can cobble together tech just as well as i can | 18:17 |
| Etherael | kanzure: stop shirking your social responsibility. | 18:17 |
| kanzure | and the rich can do the same | 18:17 |
| Etherael | from each according to his ability comrade. | 18:17 |
| kanzure | Etherael: i have an obligation to everyone on the planet? i agree it sucks if i hide knowledge from people, but i have no obligation to take care of everyone on this planet | 18:18 |
| Etherael | kanzure:I agree. | 18:18 |
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| Etherael | It strikes me as interesting that the people most fond of pointing out how the world owes you nothing are almost as quick to demand everything you have for the world. | 18:19 |
| Juul | the poor can cobble together tech if they have clean water, food, heating, electricity, a group of at least moderately educated family members / peers, access to education, time and energy left over after work, and access to communication (e.g. internet) | 18:21 |
| kanzure | Juul: at this time it's beyond my means to support everyone :P | 18:21 |
| Juul | kanzure, yes well get on that! | 18:21 |
| kanzure | okay :( | 18:21 |
| kanzure | it's unfortunate that china has had to resort to incentivizing people to not have girls | 18:22 |
| kanzure | it's more of a systemic distributed resource planning problem | 18:23 |
| kanzure | or routing problem | 18:23 |
| kanzure | oh, nevermind, that's not true. you could just plan your system for the highest growth rate and make sure it can scale | 18:23 |
| Juul | yes, and that problem is closely related to our poor systems for making group-decisions (aka government) | 18:23 |
| kanzure | well anyway. i'm a fan of planned scalability heh' | 18:24 |
| foucist | kanzure: the 1 child thing resulted in more men than girls, so there's a shortage of girls.. there's 68 million more men than girls in china... so now china is tryign to incentivize parents to _have_ girls | 18:25 |
| kanzure | foucist: nice | 18:25 |
| Juul | that should be an easier sale | 18:25 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm aware of the significant male surplus | 18:25 |
| kanzure | didn't know about the reverse/flip on the decision | 18:25 |
| Juul | killing babies: turns out it was a bad idea | 18:26 |
| kanzure | when i learned about the +68 million guys, i just felt awful | 18:26 |
| kanzure | i guess some percent might turn out to be gay | 18:26 |
| kanzure | but jeeze. | 18:26 |
| kanzure | actually when were those policies put in place? | 18:26 |
| kanzure | is it just a 10 year gap? | 18:27 |
| foucist | probably | 18:27 |
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| Juul | probably the simplest way to get rid of a man-surplus is a good old-fashioned war | 18:27 |
| foucist | i don't think the surplus is necessarily gonna make that much of a difference | 18:27 |
| kanzure | Juul: maaaybe.. what are they fighting for? the other country's women? | 18:27 |
| foucist | can always date older/youner girls etc | 18:27 |
| kanzure | foucist: yeah, as long as they have reversed the policy | 18:27 |
| yashgaroth | it's still in effect, for the last 30 years iirc | 18:28 |
| kanzure | but that's still a shortage of girls from when they are 10 to 30 | 18:28 |
| kanzure | yeah | 18:28 |
| kanzure | oh, what? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | it's been in effect for 30 years? | 18:28 |
| yashgaroth | '79 | 18:28 |
| kanzure | yup shit's broke | 18:28 |
| Juul | kanzure, what about honor? that's an old favorite | 18:28 |
| kanzure | Juul: sausage honor? i dunno man | 18:28 |
| foucist | yashgaroth: it's not in effect anymore? | 18:28 |
| yashgaroth | it's getting better now that they have more money, i.e. less need to have male children | 18:28 |
| yashgaroth | still in effect | 18:28 |
| yashgaroth | for the forseeable future too | 18:29 |
| Etherael | polygynous relationships. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | let's get some citations on this.. | 18:29 |
| Juul | citations?! | 18:29 |
| Juul | well, i'm out | 18:29 |
| yashgaroth | wikipedia that shit | 18:29 |
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| kanzure | hahah | 18:29 |
| kanzure | ladies and gentlemen - our best and finest at LBL | 18:29 |
| yashgaroth | their plan seems to be importing women from southeast asia, or yes a huge war, maybe both | 18:30 |
| Etherael | Could china realistically involve itself in a huge war without evoking nuclear holocaust? | 18:30 |
| yashgaroth | sure, as long as they pick on non-nuclear states | 18:31 |
| Etherael | Then how do you lose 68 million men? | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | fight badly I guess | 18:31 |
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| kanzure | you know that saying about china marching 10,000 men over a hill? | 18:31 |
| Etherael | That would have to be some pretty terrible performance. | 18:31 |
| kanzure | and how they could keep doing that for a thousand years? | 18:31 |
| kanzure | well, that. except a hundred thousand hills. | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | their strategy in korea was to make the US run out of bullets | 18:32 |
| Etherael | what victim states might they have? | 18:32 |
| yashgaroth | all of SE asia | 18:32 |
| Etherael | ones that wouldn't provoke aramageddon, but would still put up enough of a fight to actually result in population loss. | 18:33 |
| Etherael | Hmmm. | 18:33 |
| Etherael | Indonesia maybe? | 18:33 |
| yashgaroth | sure, they're muslim, we don't care | 18:34 |
| Etherael | yep, plenty isolated, they're big and reasonably strong, non-nuclear. | 18:34 |
| Etherael | sea / air gap though. | 18:34 |
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| Etherael | those 68 million men aren't going to swim there. | 18:34 |
| yashgaroth | sure, if you build rafts out of some of them | 18:34 |
| yashgaroth | make sure they hold their breath though | 18:35 |
| Etherael | Maybe they could provoke indonesia to attack *them* ? | 18:35 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth has been promoted to military strategy czar | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | excellent, invade the seychelles at once | 18:35 |
| kanzure | what about africa | 18:35 |
| Etherael | what about africa? | 18:36 |
| kanzure | i think they are keeping their eye close on africa | 18:36 |
| yashgaroth | and its delicious minerals | 18:36 |
| Etherael | it would probably be an improvement. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | look up 'china africa invasion' | 18:36 |
| * Etherael sighs. | 18:37 | |
| Etherael | it would be nice if humans would stop having wars. | 18:37 |
| yashgaroth | d'awwww | 18:38 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: http://ellingtonlab.org/blog/2012/02/21/on-good-intentions/ | 18:39 |
| kanzure | just a biologist's rant about things | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | bio needed a good controversy to tide things over | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | hmm I hadn't heard about thomas butler | 18:41 |
| yashgaroth | reminds me of how the feds framed, and possibly assassinated, bruce ivins over the anthrax scare | 18:42 |
| Etherael | feds would never do something like that, surely? | 18:42 |
| yashgaroth | adorable FBI, trying to imitate its big brother the CIA | 18:43 |
| Etherael | It was the FBI that attacked Jim Bell too wasn't it? | 18:43 |
| yashgaroth | yeah | 18:45 |
| Etherael | Nice fellows. | 18:45 |
| yashgaroth | eh, they're fine by themselves, but it's a symptom of corrupt government; they're just the ones that traditionally carry it out | 18:46 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: do you want to be invited to the next diybio/fbi meeting? | 18:46 |
| kanzure | it's supposed to be in may or something | 18:46 |
| Etherael | I'm more leaning to the perspective that government itself like all humanity is an inherently corrupt institution and expecting anything better from them than the rest of humanity is simply naivete. | 18:46 |
| yashgaroth | is there an official one? online or what | 18:47 |
| kanzure | in person | 18:47 |
| kanzure | probably in SF or the bay area | 18:47 |
| yashgaroth | oh cool, I've got some vacation saved up | 18:47 |
| kanzure | they will probably cover your fees | 18:47 |
| yashgaroth | even better | 18:47 |
| yashgaroth | will agent You be there? <3 | 18:48 |
| kanzure | probably. but agent head heads this sorta stuff now | 18:48 |
| kanzure | i don't quite remember the details of the transition | 18:48 |
| yashgaroth | either way, I'm totally down | 18:49 |
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| yashgaroth | at the very least, I should get onto a couple more watchlists :V | 18:50 |
| roksprok | what goes on at these fbi/diybio meetings? fbi: hey guys, make any plagues lately? | 18:50 |
| kanzure | just make a few statements in here | 18:50 |
| kanzure | i'm sure someone will pick it up | 18:50 |
| kanzure | roksprok: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2011/2011-07-13.txt | 18:51 |
| roksprok | is ed you a guy's name? | 18:53 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:53 |
| kanzure | agent you | 18:53 |
| yashgaroth | "no US iGEM team has ever won" is that true? shit | 18:53 |
| yashgaroth | heh wow it was until the UW won | 18:56 |
| kanzure | "FBI case - lentiviral work in an apartment (via Ed You). DA passed on prosecuting on it." | 18:56 |
| kanzure | ^that's the one that i wanted more info on :/ | 18:56 |
| yashgaroth | BSL 2 is pretty easy to do at home | 18:58 |
| kanzure | "MSDS are purely for company liability purposes and are not actually instructional" | 18:59 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: oh you'll like reading about cory's work | 19:00 |
| kanzure | in that document. | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | just got to that section | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | oh cool I might just head up to LA and drop by | 19:02 |
| kanzure | cory sometimes hangs out in here (ctobin) | 19:02 |
| delinquentme | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahoe-LAFS | 19:04 |
| delinquentme | COOl | 19:04 |
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| bkero | oh tahoe | 19:11 |
| bkero | yes it's cool, use it | 19:11 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, | 19:15 |
| delinquentme | papers | 19:15 |
| delinquentme | androids | 19:15 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: tahoe isn't the limiting factor | 19:16 |
| delinquentme | how the ecosystem works together | 19:17 |
| kanzure | ubuntu funded academia.edu? | 19:19 |
| kanzure | halcyon raised a round with elon musk, the day before oxnano made their announcement | 19:22 |
| delinquentme | what? | 19:22 |
| delinquentme | halcyon took funding from musK?? | 19:23 |
| kanzure | yeah they did a while back | 19:23 |
| kanzure | but they did another round recently | 19:23 |
| delinquentme | press release? | 19:23 |
| delinquentme | wants moar | 19:23 |
| kanzure | no press release | 19:23 |
| kanzure | i'm on the phone | 19:23 |
| delinquentme | w who? | 19:24 |
| kanzure | EM | 19:25 |
| delinquentme | you're talking w elon musk? | 19:25 |
| yashgaroth | ask him if he can give me some money thx | 19:25 |
| delinquentme | pics or it didnt happen | 19:25 |
| delinquentme | =] | 19:25 |
| ParahSailin_ | wait what does halcyon need money for, i thought they were gonna sell microscopes | 19:27 |
| delinquentme | thats the backup plan | 19:27 |
| delinquentme | which is just that | 19:27 |
| delinquentme | im really curious as to what they're doing w the announcement of nanopore and the 100k read lengths | 19:28 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: they ran out of money / run way | 19:31 |
| delinquentme | run way? | 19:32 |
| delinquentme | wheres the dictation of the convo kanz | 19:33 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, speak! | 19:38 |
| * delinquentme thinks kanzure is going to work like a machine tonight | 19:39 | |
| foucist | maybe kanzure will work like a human tonight | 19:50 |
| kanzure | ok i am done | 19:51 |
| delinquentme | guh! | 19:52 |
| delinquentme | was like watching girl on girl porn | 19:52 |
| delinquentme | well?? dish! | 19:52 |
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| foucist | delinquentme: runway is a startup term for how many months they can go on their capitalization | 19:54 |
| delinquentme | ah | 19:54 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, | 19:57 |
| delinquentme | gogog | 19:57 |
| delinquentme | what did he say about oxford nanopore | 19:57 |
| kanzure | furious that he dumped in money into halcyon the day before their announcement | 19:57 |
| kanzure | kinda panicy about that | 19:58 |
| delinquentme | good | 19:58 |
| delinquentme | more fire under halcyon | 19:58 |
| delinquentme | those guys are smart theyll manage | 19:58 |
| delinquentme | biohacking? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | um | 19:59 |
| kanzure | i am still skeptical about halcyon forl ying to me | 19:59 |
| delinquentme | thats not his thing though right? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | *lying to me | 19:59 |
| delinquentme | lying about? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | their plans | 19:59 |
| kanzure | selling microscopes? | 19:59 |
| delinquentme | ah | 20:01 |
| delinquentme | so what was the call about? | 20:01 |
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| foucist | delinquentme: musk probably doens't have that much control over halcyon so even if he's angry, he's probably not gonna be able to light a fire under halcyon i'm guessing | 20:03 |
| delinquentme | umm | 20:04 |
| delinquentme | idk .. seems to me like when someones paying the bills | 20:05 |
| delinquentme | you want to keep them happy | 20:05 |
| foucist | true | 20:05 |
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| ybit | kanzure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr4IxMgHdDY&feature=related | 20:18 |
| ybit | Pikachu Song 10 hours | 20:18 |
| kanzure | ybit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDOtEeI8sOQ | 20:21 |
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| ybit | i swear if that's joseph half-naked again | 20:25 |
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| delinquentme | 1:20 mins till http://www.raspberrypi.org/ makes some kind of ( positive ) announcement! | 20:40 |
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| joshcryer | Who makes the Raspberry Pi boards? | 21:29 |
| kanzure | hey joshcryer | 21:31 |
| delinquentme | not sure you could probs tweet them | 21:31 |
| joshcryer | (their site isn't loading for me or it's loading super slow) | 21:32 |
| delinquentme | lol their website is down | 21:32 |
| joshcryer | Hey kanzure | 21:32 |
| delinquentme | wait there we go | 21:32 |
| joshcryer | I want to see the Eben talk he did about it. | 21:32 |
| delinquentme | was I spacing out and read that oxford nanopore had already created 100kb reads? | 21:32 |
| kanzure | nobody outside of oxnano has confirmed it :P | 21:33 |
| delinquentme | yeah but still | 21:36 |
| delinquentme | “Up to 100-kilobase reads have been accomplished on the platform, that’s not exceptional,” | 21:36 |
| yashgaroth | the reads are also of terrible quality, relatively speaking | 21:36 |
| delinquentme | 4% error rate | 21:37 |
| delinquentme | this isnt pac bio | 21:37 |
| yashgaroth | but it's not a random rate, you get certain repeats that you can't get a reliable read on | 21:37 |
| joshcryer | 4%? Is that bad? That sounds good to me. Do passes. | 21:37 |
| joshcryer | Oh. | 21:37 |
| yashgaroth | pore technology has trouble with repeats of the same base, far as I can tell | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | hell 10% error is no problem if you get enough reads, but that's only if the error is truly random | 21:38 |
| joshcryer | Completely uninformed about the technology, btw, just making an uninformed guess there. | 21:38 |
| joshcryer | Yeah | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | not that that really helps halcyon molecular to compete, if their pores have the same fundamental flaw | 21:39 |
| kanzure | halcyon isn't doing pores | 21:40 |
| kanzure | or wasn't doing pores | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | ehh, scanning a strand with an electron microscope has the same problem, without discrete stepping progression | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | assuming that's what they're doing, anyway | 21:41 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, break down why particular repeats have issues in nanopores for me | 21:42 |
| delinquentme | ( if you woul ) | 21:43 |
| delinquentme | d | 21:43 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: how do you know the dna strand has moved? | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | you'r relying on each different base having a different signal in the pore/EM/whatever | 21:43 |
| kanzure | yep | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | so if you get several of the same nucleotide in a row, it's hard to count them accurately | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | usually it's not a huge deal, but if you're reading a protein-coding strand, a one-base offset will completely ruin your understanding of the code | 21:44 |
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| yashgaroth | not that nature usually favors long stretches of the same nucleotide, since some dna binding/reading enzymes also have trouble with "slipping" along such a strand | 21:46 |
| yashgaroth | as well as other weird secondary structures that may occur in the dna itself | 21:47 |
| delinquentme | http://pathogenomics.bham.ac.uk/blog/2012/02/oxford-nanopore-megaton-announcement-why-do-you-need-a-machine-exclusive-interview-for-this-blog/ | 21:49 |
| yashgaroth | also a 4% error rate implies they may be having significant trouble telling the difference between even 3-4 of the same base, which occurs pretty often | 21:50 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, you're talking like hairpinning? | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | yeah, basically | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | if you've got 10 As in a row, 5' As 2-4 might want to bind 3' Ts 7-9, which can mess with protein attachment since the helix unwinds | 21:52 |
| joshcryer | I'm trying to understand their process, is it fixable? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | pyrosequencing can catch that | 22:00 |
| kanzure | i think. | 22:00 |
| yashgaroth | but that's a lot of very short pyrosequencing reads | 22:01 |
| kanzure | heh | 22:01 |
| kanzure | yes | 22:01 |
| joshcryer | http://www.raspberrypi.org/ | 22:01 |
| joshcryer | 1 per customer. | 22:01 |
| yashgaroth | it seems kind of impractical then, the oxnano thing would be more useful for fast reads, like pathogen detection | 22:02 |
| joshcryer | Heh, the distributors for the R-pi are both down. | 22:05 |
| kanzure | http://rswww.com/ seems up | 22:06 |
| kanzure | http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi | 22:06 |
| joshcryer | Yeah really really slow here for me anyway. | 22:06 |
| delinquentme | http://datascience101.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/funding-for-big-data-startups/ | 22:07 |
| joshcryer | $25 all in one htpc :P I will get one when the hype dies down | 22:09 |
| kanzure | htpc? | 22:09 |
| Mokstar | you're gonna want the $35 one | 22:09 |
| Mokstar | raspberry pi | 22:09 |
| delinquentme | go all out! | 22:10 |
| delinquentme | cut out a KFC double down this week :P | 22:10 |
| delinquentme | HYPE | 22:10 |
| joshcryer | I don't see why Mokstar | 22:10 |
| delinquentme | its totally gonna make an awesome place to stash movies on | 22:11 |
| delinquentme | bc http://thepiratebay.se/@ | 22:11 |
| joshcryer | ahah, model a no ethernet | 22:12 |
| delinquentme | what? i thought they've got ethernet? | 22:12 |
| delinquentme | just not wireless | 22:12 |
| joshcryer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi | 22:13 |
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| delinquentme | The main difference from the Model A is that they include an Ethernet port, and 2 USB ports. | 22:13 |
| delinquentme | ohh you're saying on the nub version | 22:14 |
| joshcryer | I was wondering what the difference was is all since Mokstar said to get the $35 one | 22:14 |
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| delinquentme | alright NIGHT kids | 23:20 |
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| joshcryer | Talk about realistic graphics: http://www.gamespot.com/features/tim-sweeneys-crystal-ball-dice-2012-6350174/ | 23:22 |
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