| --- Log opened Wed Mar 21 00:00:00 2012 | ||
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| archels | http://www.amazon.com/Metabolic-Molecular-Bases-Inherited-Disease/dp/0079130356 | 01:16 |
|---|---|---|
| archels | $721 for a genetics textbook? | 01:16 |
| archels | It's pretty huge, but still... | 01:17 |
| fenn | Steel3: something like that chemistry app exists, it's called oscar http://stark-fire-6273.herokuapp.com/chemoinformatics/new | 01:48 |
| fenn | er, click browse | 01:49 |
| fenn | more about oscar http://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2011/11/25/the-scandal-of-publisher-forbidden-textmining-the-vision-denied/ | 01:51 |
| joshcryer | not sure if real http://www.humanbirdwings.net/ | 02:17 |
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| Replop | archels: and extracting information from it would be far slower than from a database with the same content | 03:09 |
| Replop | and carrying an usb thumb drive is far easier than 4 huge vollumes totalling 6338 pages. | 03:10 |
| ThomasEgi | besides. you can also stuff entire wikipedia on thet usb-thumb drive, and a copy if LotR and you still have enough space for a few of you fav songs | 03:12 |
| Replop | http://www.ommbid.com/ << same title. but I doubt they propose a downloadable offline version. | 03:12 |
| ThomasEgi | how about a recursive wget on that? | 03:13 |
| Replop | would only get abstracts. | 03:13 |
| Replop | full texts are hidden behind paywalls | 03:13 |
| * ThomasEgi hates paywalls :( | 03:14 | |
| Replop | and they don't even display the price before asking for personal information | 03:14 |
| Replop | oh. I was wrong | 03:15 |
| Replop | http://www.ommbid.com/OMMBID/a/ommbidrate | 03:15 |
| Replop | $295 for full access | 03:15 |
| Replop | far cheaper than the paper version, then | 03:15 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. if someone has access to it, running a small python script that makes your browser go over the individual pages found in the table of content, and saving it to disk wouldnt be too hard | 03:16 |
| Replop | just make the script tweak the pages so they would be nicely browsable offline. | 03:17 |
| Replop | relative links and such | 03:17 |
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| ThomasEgi | once you have the actual content. that's not much of a problem at all | 03:19 |
| Replop | yes | 03:19 |
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| ThomasEgi | matter of running a single replace() on each html page | 03:20 |
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| Replop | but of course, uploading the result for the rest of the community would be highly illegal :/ | 03:47 |
| ThomasEgi | at least you could carry it arround on your thumbdrive... | 04:04 |
| ThomasEgi | losing that drive, wouldbe... an ... unfortunate loss | 04:04 |
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| Urchin | I think we're going to lose peer review in a not too distant future | 04:35 |
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| kanzure | evidence that the finger-magnet community is more of an offshoot of BMEzine than transhumanism: | 06:32 |
| kanzure | http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-modification | 06:32 |
| vrs | "more than" why think in those terms? | 06:35 |
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| kanzure | hi ParahSailin_ | 06:44 |
| ParahSailin_ | hi | 06:44 |
| ParahSailin_ | fucking carpal tunnel | 06:45 |
| kanzure | being 20, i am invincible and do not experience such problems | 06:46 |
| ParahSailin_ | i normally dont either | 06:47 |
| ParahSailin_ | but the gf is a biter | 06:47 |
| ParahSailin_ | and i think she did some nerve damage | 06:47 |
| thesnark | kanzure you're only 20? nice | 06:48 |
| strangewarp | jegus, I've got to work harder | 06:51 |
| strangewarp | I'm almost 25 and still putting together my first major thing :P | 06:52 |
| thesnark | strangewarp best to always work your hardest | 06:53 |
| strangewarp | I'm on the nootropics and they definitely help | 06:58 |
| kanzure | strangewarp: rule 1 of ##hplusroadmap is, i'm gonna beat the snot outta ya | 06:59 |
| kanzure | 25 is the new 50 | 06:59 |
| strangewarp | goddamnit | 07:00 |
| kanzure | i'm just being a jerk | 07:00 |
| thesnark | shit, except that 25 really is the new 50 | 07:01 |
| thesnark | I have have 2 years, 2 months ;__; | 07:01 |
| kanzure | 25? isn't that the time when most SV programmers retire? | 07:01 |
| thesnark | haha | 07:01 |
| thesnark | seems like it | 07:02 |
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| Coornail | 25? | 07:18 |
| Coornail | I have to work harder then | 07:18 |
| Coornail | I wan't to retire | 07:18 |
| Coornail | I had enough of this mess some call software development... | 07:19 |
| thesnark | oh come on | 07:19 |
| thesnark | you get a sick pleasure from it | 07:19 |
| thesnark | admit it | 07:19 |
| Coornail | I kinda do... | 07:19 |
| Coornail | I would like to retire though | 07:20 |
| thesnark | I think what you mean is that you'd like to focus only on stuff you find interesting | 07:20 |
| kanzure | thesnark: i think i broke protocol-online.org | 07:21 |
| Coornail | isn't it what "retiring" means? | 07:21 |
| thesnark | nice kanzure | 07:22 |
| thesnark | that looks so ripe for scraping | 07:22 |
| thesnark | Coornail well, if that's your definition of retiring you can start whenever you want | 07:22 |
| kanzure | thesnark: wait, does it load? | 07:22 |
| thesnark | yeah | 07:22 |
| kanzure | hahah | 07:23 |
| thesnark | they probably blocked you | 07:23 |
| kanzure | he's blocking me | 07:23 |
| kanzure | what a cockblocker | 07:23 |
| thesnark | this is why we need our distributed scraping darknet | 07:23 |
| thesnark | I could have shared the load ;) | 07:23 |
| kanzure | welll | 07:23 |
| kanzure | i found this huge hole on the server i think | 07:23 |
| kanzure | where if you scrape a particular page, | 07:23 |
| kanzure | it sends out emails to 20,000 users | 07:23 |
| thesnark | bahahaha | 07:23 |
| kanzure | and each email takes 30 seconds to generate | 07:23 |
| thesnark | hahaha | 07:23 |
| thesnark | that is awesome | 07:23 |
| Coornail | somebody there will really wish he/she could retire =) | 07:24 |
| kanzure | thesnark: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/protocol-online/protocol_scraper.py | 07:24 |
| thesnark | kanzure nice yeah BeautifulSoup is good | 07:25 |
| thesnark | you should throttle your scraping though | 07:26 |
| kanzure | NEVER. | 07:26 |
| kanzure | thesnark: btw | 07:26 |
| kanzure | a distributed scraper throttler that works on top of the 'requests' library would be very easy | 07:26 |
| kanzure | like a drop-in replacement | 07:26 |
| kanzure | i guess you would have to use some async library like twisted though | 07:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | that's a *lot* of code for such a simple task | 07:26 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: i wanted to parse the data | 07:27 |
| * thesnark must go to class | 07:28 | |
| -!- thesnark is now known as thesnark|afk | 07:29 | |
| katsmeow-afk | prolly enough data linked thru there to keep everyone's dsl in here busy for a month | 07:29 |
| thesnark|afk | one thing before I go, my local ISP just started offering 110MBps connections | 07:29 |
| thesnark|afk | totally contemplating it | 07:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | some of my mining has kept running for 7 months, at 2 hits per second, lot of garbage urls tho, it wasn't all good | 07:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | thesnark|afk, you cannot hit most pages any faster than slow dsl, or they'll throttle you | 07:30 |
| ParahSailin_ | thiel didnt do shit until he was like 28 | 07:30 |
| ParahSailin_ | so dont feel bad | 07:31 |
| thesnark|afk | katsmeow if I can't go depth first I'll go breadth first | 07:31 |
| thesnark|afk | many sites at once | 07:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | agreed | 07:32 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: thiel is not a good role model :P | 07:32 |
| thesnark|afk | time to go away for real now | 07:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | have funs | 07:33 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2011/03/gut_bacteria_may_influence_thoughts_and_behaviour.php | 08:51 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: i hear that you are female | 08:51 |
| kanzure | can you confirm/deny? | 08:51 |
| Mokbortolan_ | That's an interesting rumor | 08:51 |
| kanzure | yes i thought so too | 08:51 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I am decidedly "cis-male" | 08:51 |
| kanzure | ahuh | 08:52 |
| kanzure | my source is bad :) | 08:52 |
| * Mokbortolan_ strokes his neckbeard. | 08:52 | |
| Mokbortolan_ | I am intrigued, however, as to the source of this | 08:52 |
| kanzure | steel3| | 08:52 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Hah! | 08:52 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Maybe he's got me confused with the lady who runs MyModafinil.com | 08:52 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Steel2: Explain yourself sirrah! | 08:53 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I'm not offended though, women can be wonderful people | 08:54 |
| Mokbortolan_ | why, if I were a woman I'd marry me immediately | 08:55 |
| Mokbortolan_ | not sure how the wife would react, but I'm sure that would sort itself out over time | 08:56 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I'd have to lose some weight, and do something with my hair, however | 08:58 |
| Mokbortolan_ | And not be so argumentative. Crimony woman, it's like living with the captain of the Asperger's Society Debate Team! | 08:59 |
| d3nd3 | loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool +1 | 09:00 |
| phryk | What's the "cis" in "cis-male" stand for? o_O | 09:00 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's a silly convention I recently learned of | 09:00 |
| Mokbortolan_ | basically, it means that one is "gender normative" | 09:01 |
| Mokbortolan_ | so I'm male in the Ernest Hemingway tradition, as opposed to the Herbert Hoover tradition. | 09:01 |
| phryk | "gender normative" meaning being heterosexual and not into bdsm? | 09:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's more about identifying with your gender | 09:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | "a man in a man's body", so to speak | 09:02 |
| phryk | Ah. | 09:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | err, not herbert hoover | 09:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | sorry Herbert | 09:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I meant J. Edgar Hoover | 09:03 |
| phryk | Now I'm wondering if I'm cis-male…^^ | 09:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you know, cis/trans? | 09:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | chemistry term | 09:03 |
| phryk | I don't really give a damn about gender… I feel okay being male, but I think I'd feel okay as woman, too… | 09:03 |
| phryk | No, sorry. | 09:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you should watch this great movie, "trans-america" | 09:05 |
| kanzure | he means "manly man" | 09:06 |
| Mokbortolan_ | oh sure, if you don't want to use vague and confusing terminology | 09:07 |
| -!- thesnark|afk is now known as thesnark | 09:16 | |
| thesnark | people overcomplicate sexuality so much | 09:16 |
| thesnark | find a person, pleasure each other's organs until both have orgasmed | 09:16 |
| thesnark | the end | 09:16 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | Abandon All Culture, Ye Who Enter Here | 09:23 |
| rkos | all hail the numbers | 09:29 |
| delinquentme | all hail nombers | 09:30 |
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| ybit | 21:26 < kanzure> "Recommended online education sources were: GetHub, Instructables, and Hack A Day" | 12:07 |
| kanzure | it was from chicago opensci's group meeting notes | 12:07 |
| ybit | at least he's taking note of version control | 12:07 |
| kanzure | https://jrvarma.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/the-sec-and-the-python/ | 12:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.itworld.com/government/105031/will-wall-street-require-python | 12:32 |
| kanzure | "We are proposing to require that most ABS issuers file a computer program that gives effect to the flow of funds, or “waterfall,” provisions of the transaction. We are proposing that the computer program be filed on EDGAR in the form of downloadable source code in Python. … (page 205)" | 12:33 |
| kanzure | "Under the proposed requirement, the filed source code, when downloaded and run by an investor, must provide the user with the ability to programmatically input the user’s own assumptions regarding the future performance and cash flows from the pool assets, " | 12:33 |
| kanzure | "ncluding but not limited to assumptions about future interest rates, default rates, prepayment speeds, loss-given-default rates, and any other necessary assumptions … (page 210)" | 12:33 |
| kanzure | "The waterfall computer program must also allow the use of the proposed asset-level data file that will be filed at the time of the offering and on a periodic basis thereafter. (page 211)" | 12:33 |
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| jrayhawk | http://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-7/ hooray, he's become more coherent | 13:30 |
| kanzure | artisan's asylum looks ok | 13:36 |
| kanzure | http://artisansasylum.com/?page_id=18 | 13:36 |
| kanzure | but it's a little strange that they don't have things like.. a laser cutter. | 13:36 |
| kanzure | apparently this is one of the boston dynamics guys | 13:37 |
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| kanzure | bacterial radio thing | 14:34 |
| kanzure | http://www.biofaction.com/synth-ethic/?p=44 | 14:34 |
| kanzure | "Bacterial Radio exhibits several bacterially-grown platinum/germanium electrical circuits (crystal radios) on glass substrates. Joe Davis, in collaboration with Ido Bachelet and Tara Gianoulis from Harvard Medical School in Boston," | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "used bacteria altered with variants of a gene from orange marine puffball sponges (Tethya aurantia) to plate electronic circuits on Petri dishes and microscope slides." | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "This gene codes for a protein – silicatein – that normally forms Tethya aurantia’s glass skeleton, its tiny, glass, needle-like spicules composed of silicon and oxygen. Variants of this gene have now been optimized to plate metallic conductors and semiconductors including germanium, titanium dioxide, platinum and other materials." | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "Here, genetically-modified bacteria are embedded in non-conductive materials containing metal salts, and then optically induced to plate specific, electrically conductive circuits." | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "These Bacterial Radios on display are connected to high impedance telephone headsets, antennae and ground, so that visitors may use them to actually listen to AM radio broadcasts." | 14:35 |
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| AdrianG | lol | 14:37 |
| Steel3 | ? | 14:38 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Steel3: I heard you were a girl! | 14:39 |
| Steel3 | Wat. | 14:39 |
| Steel3 | no, lichen and molybdenum are the girls | 14:39 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | no no no | 14:39 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I meant, "were" a girl | 14:40 |
| Mariu | I got CPUs of steel | 14:40 |
| AdrianG | kanzure: can u control those bacteria via radio? | 14:40 |
| Steel3 | wat. | 14:41 |
| Steel3 | someone said I'm transgender? | 14:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | :p | 14:41 |
| Steel3 | lmaoing. | 14:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | j/k, who told you I was of the feminine persuasion? | 14:41 |
| Steel3 | I didn't say anything about you being feminine | 14:43 |
| Steel3 | ? | 14:43 |
| Steel3 | I said molybdenum not mokbortalon | 14:43 |
| kanzure | uhuh | 14:44 |
| kanzure | still sounds just as unlikely | 14:44 |
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| Steel3 | what's the point of being skeptical about this? | 14:45 |
| Steel3 | I mean, shit, I have moly on facebook. But why not address someone with their preferred pronoun? | 14:46 |
| kanzure | i have nothing against pronouns | 14:46 |
| kanzure | it's just unlikely | 14:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | yeah | 14:47 |
| kanzure | Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and such | 14:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | everybody knows there are no girls on the internet | 14:47 |
| kanzure | yep | 14:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | only pictures of them | 14:47 |
| Steel3 | but this isn't really an extraordinary claim to give someone shit over | 14:47 |
| kanzure | i'm not giving youshit o.o | 14:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I am, but it's all in good fun | 14:47 |
| Steel3 | not me, I'm a dude | 14:47 |
| Steel3 | whatever, I can take it | 14:47 |
| Steel3 | however, the culture of proof or gtfo (with regards to something is irritatingly pointless as gender) isn't the most welcoming | 14:48 |
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| kanzure | i never said gtfo for this reason | 14:49 |
| Steel3 | apologies, hyperbole. | 14:49 |
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| Replop | so before acquiring balls of Steel , there were boobs of Steel ? I see .... | 14:56 |
| Mo|ybdenum | what? | 14:56 |
| Mo|ybdenum | Steel's uh...always... been a dude. | 14:56 |
| Steel3 | rumors, jokes, etc. apparently abounding | 14:56 |
| Replop | not according to Mokbortolan_ | 14:57 |
| Steel3 | Mokbortolan_'s a cock :P | 14:57 |
| strangewarp | Pretty sure I would prefer to have no gender at all, once I can. | 14:57 |
| Mo|ybdenum | Everyone loves to think I'm a dude so meh. | 14:58 |
| Replop | strangewarp: so you would give up the possibiliy of sex as a recreational activity ? | 14:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | no gender or no sex? you cannot choose gender, i think, but you can surgically reassign sex | 14:58 |
| strangewarp | Replop: Yes. I already get grossed out by the idea of any kind of sex, so it's no big thing | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | gender identity appears to be epigenetic, so we'll probably be able to modify it eventually | 14:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | societies pretty demand you fit some form of gender, regardless of your sex | 14:59 |
| Replop | or go the Snails way and become hermaphrodite; so people that want to reasign their sex won't need surgery anymore | 14:59 |
| strangewarp | No gender, no sex, no sex drive, etc. | 14:59 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: gender modification tech is shockingly primitive | 14:59 |
| kanzure | or i guess advanced compared to the other boneheaded medicine we have | 14:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | intersexed (hermaphrodite) is also a pretty broad term, iirc there's 16 variations | 15:00 |
| jrayhawk | well, genetic methylation is a fairly recent discovery; i think we should give medicine some time | 15:00 |
| katsmeow-afk | considering some women take testosterone to increase sex drive, but don't become male or men, i dunno how you'd change genders, even if you did chage their sex | 15:01 |
| Mo|ybdenum | SRS for male to female is fairly well off, but female to male is still extrememly rudementary. | 15:01 |
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| jrayhawk | and i suppose gender identity is a political landmine, so research will lag for a while on it | 15:01 |
| Mo|ybdenum | rudimentary? spelling. | 15:01 |
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| katsmeow-afk | rudimentary, check, correct | 15:02 |
| Mo|ybdenum | yes but gender is the mental construct so hormones wouldn't nessecarily effect that. | 15:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | i believe that is correct | 15:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | even applying the wrong hormones prenatally has been shown to cause transsexualism, not transgenderism, in humans | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. hormones could affect mentality too. | 15:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | they can affect agression, but not which sex you want to have sex with | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | not so sure. | 15:05 |
| Mo|ybdenum | Hasn't it been shown in cases where hormones effected gender predilections the person already had leanings towards those things to begin with. | 15:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas | 15:05 |
| ThomasEgi | difficult subject i guess. with mand influences overlapping each other. i would like to pretend all combinations are possible | 15:05 |
| ThomasEgi | as there is no way to definetly rule out one or the other | 15:06 |
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| katsmeow-afk | human experimentation of tis type is frowned on | 15:07 |
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| Mo|ybdenum | even if it wasn't you still have societal mores/norms to contend with | 15:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | society would frown on it | 15:09 |
| Mo|ybdenum | at least in america you have the whole religious right and their insanity. | 15:09 |
| Mo|ybdenum | not even going into cultural hold overs of "manly men" and "fragile women" | 15:10 |
| kanzure | i regret bringing this up | 15:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | many societies are onordinately preoccupied with another's gender, and even persoanlly involed id-wise if there's any attraction involved in any way | 15:10 |
| Mo|ybdenum | exactly. | 15:10 |
| Mo|ybdenum | which is kind of bizarre when you think about it. | 15:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | very | 15:10 |
| Mo|ybdenum | i'm sure there is some psychological reason for that | 15:11 |
| ThomasEgi | societly is bizarre an many aspects. especially since it blocks new creative and potentially more productive ways of thinking | 15:11 |
| Mo|ybdenum | some of that can be blamed on religion, but not all of it. | 15:12 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe.. but all of it can be blamed on the humans^^ | 15:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | conceit, i imagine,, figuring if anything oes wrong it's either "they did something wrong to me" or "i was stupid enough to be suckered" | 15:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | and it may not be factual, only percieved | 15:13 |
| Mo|ybdenum | Yep, it is definently all humans' fault, it's just that often times the preconcieved notions are based on ' (holy text here) says it's wrong" | 15:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | even if only percived by others: "i don't care, but others will make fun of me, so i haveto protect my honor" | 15:13 |
| Mo|ybdenum | exclusion is a powerful thing. | 15:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, growing up on a farm and seeing cows, rabbits, birds, dogs, cats, yoou name it, having same-sex fun, and then sunday hearing the priest saying only human are gay and because of "the devil", religion is lying | 15:15 |
| Mo|ybdenum | Yeah it's gonna be a while before that really gets thru to alot of people. | 15:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | 2000 yrs, ithasn't happened yet, too many people have a need to be followers | 15:18 |
| ThomasEgi | the "devil" is pretty much the weirdest concept i encoutered in human argumentation. usualy used to prevent other people from doing things you dont like. | 15:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | nah, the dicotomy is common in many thing, opposing forces all over the place | 15:19 |
| Mo|ybdenum | "You're gonna go to hell!" is another one. | 15:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's the whole bit about a potential ruler of a country claiming he has the strongest belief in his imaginary friends, and the most willingness to do as his preacher tells him to do, that scares me | 15:20 |
| ThomasEgi | reminds me of that one definition of holy-wars. "the fight between grown up men about who has the coolest imaginary friend" | 15:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | in many ways, the usa is the xtain version of Iran or Pakistan | 15:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | yep | 15:21 |
| strangewarp | katsmeow-afk: That's actually pretty true. Both the US and Iran had their quietist religious fundamentalists activated as political groups in the 1970s. | 15:21 |
| kanzure | wut? | 15:21 |
| kanzure | On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Eric Mossotti <edaptmogen@gmail.com> wrote: | 15:21 |
| kanzure | > The Venus Project needs experienced people to volunteer some time, | 15:21 |
| kanzure | > regarding possibly transitioning into the Open Community.. | 15:21 |
| kanzure | > | 15:21 |
| kanzure | > www.thevenusproject.com | 15:21 |
| kanzure | > www.tvpactivism.com | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > I have been discussing this in a thread (link below), and am to the point | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > that people who have done open projects, or related things, need to input | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > into this. I have done a bit of research and am needing anyone who can | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > possibly have some correspondence with me and maybe show how things will be | 15:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | characterising the Taliban, for instance, as a war-making terrorst org, when the usa hasn't been out of a war in 100 years, is ludicrus | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > handled if the choice is made to go Open with past, present, and/or future | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > works and projects. | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > I think this volunteer organization is very much aligned by default, by | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > definition, with the Open and Free Software and related movements, however | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > the person who started this is in his mid 90s now, is still alive and well | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > for his age, but doesn't know about these things. I am trying to bridge the | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > gap between us and the all encompassing open developments that are growing | 15:22 |
| kanzure | > worldwide. | 15:22 |
| * katsmeow-afk ponders on stomping on kanzure's next conversation without waitng for a pause in that conversation | 15:24 | |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: you're perfectly welcome to | 15:24 |
| kanzure | this is an irc channel.. it can handle more than one conversation at a time | 15:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | it would be impolite of me to do so <cough> | 15:24 |
| kanzure | i am a very impolite person | 15:24 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 15:25 | |
| Mo|ybdenum | *blinks a few times* | 15:25 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I think it's funny how quickly people like to dismiss the profound differences between men and women | 15:26 |
| Mo|ybdenum | and that was a good conversation too :( | 15:26 |
| Mo|ybdenum | profound differences? | 15:26 |
| Mokbortolan_ | in the brain, especially | 15:26 |
| Mokbortolan_ | although I guess in this case "profound" is a matter of degree | 15:27 |
| katsmeow-afk | i tend to think many of those are imposed while growing up tho | 15:27 |
| kanzure | billions and billions | 15:27 |
| katsmeow-afk | not all, but many | 15:27 |
| Mokbortolan_ | (male vs female) vs (male vs male) | 15:27 |
| Mokbortolan_ | katsmeow-afk: I'm really referring to the white/grey matter differences | 15:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | i wis the edges could be taken off , and poele would stop trying to live on the fringes of the bell curve of gender-steriotype behaviors | 15:29 |
| Mokbortolan_ | and from what I've read, post-natal changes to that are few | 15:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | problem is the brain is programmable over the years, and with it comes some physical changes | 15:30 |
| Mokbortolan_ | problem? | 15:30 |
| Mo|ybdenum | i think Kat means in the sense of saying there is this hardline difference | 15:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | and in some case, physical attributes of the local environment play a huge part: consider home ec classes, body size | 15:31 |
| Mokbortolan_ | they're not the same | 15:31 |
| Mokbortolan_ | male and female brains are not the same | 15:31 |
| Mokbortolan_ | but, what does that mean? what are the substantive differences? | 15:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | there is some hardline differences, crack-addicted babies are prone to addiction to anyting the rest of their lives, and may well become addrenaline junkies and act out in behavoral ways | 15:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | so it's a small leap to saying otehr chemical soup difference neonatally can have some difference | 15:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | but the human should be smart enough to minimise a lot of that | 15:33 |
| Steel3 | hard line differences are hard to separate from societal condition differences, given that the needs of our environment shape the brain | 15:33 |
| kanzure | all of this is boring let's just sacrifice katsmeow-afk and scan in her brain | 15:34 |
| kanzure | then we will have real answers | 15:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | i agree, but there are cases where a 120lb woman wants to be a heavyweight boxer, and the 250lbs 6-4 man wants to be a woman | 15:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | "want" to be taken with a grain of salt | 15:35 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I don't really have an argument, except to say that people who maintain that men and women are exactly the same do so out of allegiences to something other than reality | 15:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | anyhow, i do need to go afk, and kansure may have a cow if i don't, regardless if the rest of you continue the conversation | 15:36 |
| Mariu | kanzure, what about advanced sensors that scan her brain as alternative ? | 15:36 |
| kanzure | Mariu: what sensors? | 15:36 |
| Mariu | kanzure: don't know | 15:36 |
| * Mokbortolan_ looks up brain scans of trans- people. | 15:36 | |
| Steel3 | Mokbortolan_: not exactly the same, but we can't tell which differences are innate and which are social (for a developed brain) | 15:36 |
| kanzure | why would that matter? | 15:37 |
| Steel3 | Because it would indicate where 'differences between men and women' are (at least attitude/personality/brain wise) more a matter of biology or how they're treated culturally | 15:37 |
| kanzure | neuroplasticity is a fact | 15:38 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_ was mentioning that there are genetic brain differences | 15:38 |
| kanzure | but, there are genetic brain differences between all of us | 15:38 |
| Mariu | ^ | 15:38 |
| Steel3 | And we don't know what those are unfortunately, as far as I know | 15:38 |
| kanzure | genetic brain differences are easy to tell | 15:39 |
| kanzure | just scan for the known brain snps | 15:39 |
| Mokbortolan_ | women have more interconnects and smaller processors, men have bigger processors and fewer interconnects | 15:39 |
| strangewarp | If you don't like your brain, change it | 15:39 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: "smaller processors"? | 15:39 |
| kanzure | what | 15:39 |
| Mariu | LOL | 15:39 |
| Steel3 | Mok: Do you know for sure that's biological and not social? | 15:39 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Steel3: I'm pretty sure | 15:39 |
| kanzure | are any of you neuroscientists or am i pissing in the wind here? | 15:39 |
| Mariu | Miniature versions | 15:39 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I'm an armchair neuroscientist | 15:39 |
| Steel3 | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/677048.stm eg. | 15:40 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I get all my information from Time magainze | 15:40 |
| Mariu | would be nice to design your own brain | 15:40 |
| kanzure | then do it | 15:40 |
| kanzure | nobody is stopping you | 15:40 |
| Mokbortolan_ | except that pesky reality | 15:41 |
| kanzure | what? | 15:42 |
| kanzure | how? | 15:42 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Steel3: the taxi drivers grew a section of their brain, they didn't completely lay it out differently | 15:42 |
| kanzure | there is nothing stopping Mariu from "designing a brain" | 15:42 |
| Steel3 | point is we don't know what the extent of cultural vs biological is | 15:42 |
| kanzure | Steel3: neuroplasticity is still a fact.. "culture" doesn't change that | 15:42 |
| Mokbortolan_ | kanzure: you're right | 15:43 |
| Steel3 | Right! But we can't tell which differences between men and women are caused by what | 15:43 |
| Mokbortolan_ | implementation, however, is another matter :p | 15:43 |
| Steel3 | or at least not well | 15:43 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: hee he didn't specify that | 15:43 |
| Mo|ybdenum | the only way you'd be able to figure out what is and isn't culturally based would be raising someone in seclusion and that's all kinds of human rights abuses. | 15:43 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Steel3: teh differences can be seen at 26 weeks of fetal development | 15:44 |
| kanzure | Mo|ybdenum: not true.. you can test neural tissue cultures and figure out which modes of plasticity are available under which conditions | 15:44 |
| Mokbortolan_ | ostensibly before culturally-induced changes can occur :p | 15:44 |
| Steel3 | doesn't help much with full developed brain | 15:44 |
| Steel3 | partially, yes | 15:44 |
| Mokbortolan_ | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20600789 | 15:45 |
| kanzure | if you are going to claim all this nonsense about culture/social, | 15:45 |
| Mariu | you could do it through bio-hacking | 15:45 |
| kanzure | then look at other animals | 15:45 |
| kanzure | and stop complaining to me about this | 15:45 |
| Mariu | *biohacking | 15:45 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Mariu: I'd settle for simpler organs | 15:46 |
| Mokbortolan_ | lots of folks out there needing kidneys, after all | 15:47 |
| kanzure | oh that's what i should have them do | 15:47 |
| kanzure | Steel3: i should have them make a black market app for organs | 15:47 |
| Steel3 | hah | 15:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | or, barring that, I'd like a way to tack additional brains onto my own | 15:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | although, that would make finding a hat that fits much more difficult | 15:49 |
| Mariu | an engineered brain will problably made out of modules, each module taking certain functions of the brain | 15:49 |
| Mariu | each module handling | 15:50 |
| Mariu | * | 15:50 |
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| * katsmeow-afk does a flyby | 15:59 | |
| katsmeow-afk | raising someone in seclusion won't help, because all the tasks for survival that are gender specific in a society would need to be done by the one person for them to survive | 16:00 |
| Mariu | you upload the tasks | 16:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | cuttng firewood, killing animals for food, home construction,, or gardening, cooking, clothes mending, cleaning | 16:01 |
| Mariu | killing animals ?? | 16:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, eating them live | 16:02 |
| Mariu | that's not modern at all | 16:02 |
| Mariu | not even civilised | 16:02 |
| * katsmeow-afk looks for where she said "modern" | 16:02 | |
| Mariu | imagine having a species using you as food material | 16:03 |
| Mariu | I bet you would like that | 16:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | i didn't say i agree with it | 16:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | i recently discovered i have been dietarily protien deficient, but instead of killing animals, i am buying fortified whey protien powders, so please get off my back | 16:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | that whey comes from somewhere | 16:05 |
| Mokbortolan_ | probably cows | 16:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | i grew up on a farm, as previously stated, and was several times forced to eat part of one of my non-human friends, i severely didn't like that | 16:06 |
| Mariu | *civilized | 16:06 |
| Mokbortolan_ | yeah, probably not a good idea to befriend the livestock for that reason | 16:06 |
| Mokbortolan_ | hard not to do though when you're a kid | 16:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's a fact humans must eat, but at least i am not killing the cow | 16:06 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I've always been of the opinion that the closer you are to the animal, the better | 16:07 |
| Mokbortolan_ | to help you be grateful and respectful rather than flippant, tossing out meat that wasn't spiced to your liking | 16:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | does anyone with knowledge know if the whey powders are a suitable offset for not eating cows and pigs and rabbits and chickens and etc? | 16:09 |
| Mokbortolan_ | in a dietary sense? | 16:09 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 16:09 | |
| Mokbortolan_ | no | 16:09 |
| katsmeow-afk | what's missing, and what do i do about it? | 16:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you'll need b12 and vitamin d at minimum | 16:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | that's in a vit pill | 16:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I was a strict vegetarian for a while | 16:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | not really | 16:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | ingredient list says it is | 16:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | bioavailability is an issue | 16:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | and you're a female, right? | 16:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | that's hard to find out about from a pill company | 16:10 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods some more | 16:11 | |
| katsmeow-afk | but, why would that matter? | 16:11 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you'll also need iron, and no, supplements are not a good substitute | 16:11 |
| Mokbortolan_ | as my wife found out | 16:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, some epople do not absorb stuff same as other epople | 16:11 |
| Mokbortolan_ | women need more iron than men | 16:11 |
| Mokbortolan_ | this is true | 16:11 |
| Mokbortolan_ | men only lose iron when we cut ourselves :p | 16:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | without blood testing, there's not a good way to see if you aren't absorbing, sort of a deficiency disease or disability,, or death | 16:12 |
| Mokbortolan_ | there's a quick test for anemia | 16:12 |
| Mokbortolan_ | not precise, but accurate | 16:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | iron isn't lost in blood cell death? | 16:12 |
| Mokbortolan_ | no, it gets recycled by the spleen | 16:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | hmm | 16:13 |
| Mokbortolan_ | flip down your lower eyelid, if the tissue there is nice and red, you're fine | 16:13 |
| Mokbortolan_ | if it's pale, you're anemic | 16:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | i'll chec later when i have a mirror handy | 16:13 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's really hard to substitute animal flesh (long term) in the human diet | 16:14 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you can do it for a long time, no doubt | 16:14 |
| Mokbortolan_ | or, some people can | 16:14 |
| Mokbortolan_ | but at a cost | 16:14 |
| Mariu | Moby did it | 16:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas,, i was running into that on the protein issue | 16:15 |
| Mariu | ... the singer | 16:15 |
| Mokbortolan_ | protein isn't really an issue though | 16:16 |
| Mokbortolan_ | there's tons of protein in vegetable foods | 16:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | afaik i had all the B vits and otehr stuff,, prolly a cholesteral imbalance | 16:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, but veggies come with calories, and often cost more than grains | 16:16 |
| Mokbortolan_ | and if you're gluten intolerant, you've got some serious issues being vegan :p | 16:18 |
| Mariu | you design your body to be gluten tolerant | 16:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | i am often pissed that my garden veggies are coverd with flecks of ash from someone's burning garbage | 16:18 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Oh do I? | 16:18 |
| Mo|ybdenum | yeah, I know all about gluten intolerance and lactose intolerance. | 16:18 |
| * katsmeow-afk eats breads just fine | 16:19 | |
| Mokbortolan_ | eww | 16:19 |
| Mokbortolan_ | live out inthe country, I take it | 16:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | you don't like bread? | 16:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas | 16:19 |
| Mokbortolan_ | eww to the ashes | 16:19 |
| Mo|ybdenum | more like bread doesn't like me. | 16:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | fresh country air is often far more polluted than the city air | 16:19 |
| ThomasEgi | Mo|ybdenum, be glad it is only gluten. mate of mine had fructose intollerance. | 16:20 |
| Mo|ybdenum | O_o how do you live being allergic to fructose | 16:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | gas prices in some way reflect the chemistry in it to modify emmisions, yet the epople driving the cars burn garbage, and there's some seriosly toxic stuff from buring plastics at low temperatures | 16:20 |
| ThomasEgi | he could count the dishes he could eat on one hand | 16:21 |
| kanzure | ah yes the mythical fructose-free fructose | 16:21 |
| ThomasEgi | well. you pretty much have to eat meat, cooked, with no spice and nothing. | 16:21 |
| ThomasEgi | there are a few ingredients that are low on fructose | 16:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | no garlic or tumeric?! | 16:21 |
| ThomasEgi | nothing. execpt meat , cooked in (i think olive oil?) | 16:22 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure. | 16:22 |
| Mo|ybdenum | or paprika probably. | 16:22 |
| ThomasEgi | and rye bread iirc | 16:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | ouch | 16:22 |
| ThomasEgi | after a year he was able to eat banana. no idea what's low fructose bout them.. | 16:22 |
| ThomasEgi | well after 4 years in total. he's now back to normal. | 16:22 |
| ThomasEgi | strange body he has. but fructose intollerance runs in his family tree. | 16:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | "set that replicator to 'low fructose'" | 16:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | good thing there's other sugars | 16:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | anyhow, i need to afk again | 16:23 |
| ThomasEgi | time for bed for me too. | 16:23 |
| kanzure | http://ipod.com/init | 16:24 |
| kanzure | ph33r | 16:24 |
| Mo|ybdenum | is dat sum phr34king | 16:25 |
| kanzure | http://pastebin.com/yZxWJD9n | 16:27 |
| kanzure | if it 404s. | 16:27 |
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| jrayhawk | FWIW nobody eats bread fine; the CXCR3/zonulin cascade is bad news. | 17:04 |
| kanzure | i wonder what the synthesis steps are for modern contraceptives | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | Whey contains a bunch of IGF-1, which is a nondiscriminating growth promotor. | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | It is a good idea when you are a child and need a lot of nonspecific growth, it is somewhat more problematic when you are an adult. | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | Carnitine and the various B-vitamins are difficult to get from non-meat sources, so you should worry about those. | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | You should also worry about long-chain omega-3; terrestrial plant life simply will not cut it. | 17:07 |
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| jrayhawk | Eggs are a better option than whey; go for free-range/pastured eggs to maximize omega 3 | 17:07 |
| jrayhawk | and eat a shitload of saturated fat to make the most of whatever long-chain PUFA you can get | 17:08 |
| jrayhawk | The big problem with eggs is that eggwhites contain avidin which only goes away with high temperature cooking, but high temperature cooking oxidizes PUFA | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | they're a pretty crap protein source, but they're still less awful than whey. | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | I've lately just taking to tossing the whites and eating the yolks raw. | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | s/taking/taken/ | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | If you're okay with it morally and can manage to stomach it, http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/CodLiverOil/index.cfm will take care of most of your A/B/D vitamin problems and omega 3 intake | 17:11 |
| jrayhawk | tropicaltraditions.com sells bucks of saturated fat; the expeller-pressed variety is essentially tasteless. | 17:12 |
| jrayhawk | s/bucks/buckets/ | 17:12 |
| kanzure | woulda liked bucks.. gotta hunt down those animals | 17:13 |
| jrayhawk | I guess I should qualify my CXCR3/zonulin snipe a little better... | 17:15 |
| jrayhawk | I'm not suggesting you have coeliac; intestinal permeability is a separate but related issue. Coeliac is an acute inflammatory and often painful reaction (that some people have) to lymphatic infiltration by grains (which seemingly everyone has to varying degrees). | 17:15 |
| jrayhawk | Being born without coeliac is like being born without pain receptors. Just because you don't get acute inflammation and pain when punching yourself in the face doesn't make it a good idea. | 17:16 |
| Mo|ybdenum | would pea or hemp protein be an option? | 17:24 |
| Mo|ybdenum | because i don't do wheat or dairy. | 17:24 |
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| jrayhawk | FWIW fermentation often gets rid of problematic compounds, so your options can expand somewhat with that in mind. | 17:38 |
| kanzure | hmm the openscad guy is commiting to scl now | 17:38 |
| kanzure | *committing | 17:38 |
| kanzure | "Hi guys - we've started working on the BRL-CAD SCL/github SCL syncing effort, and as part of that I would like to ask if the following patch could be applied to the github CMake files?" | 17:38 |
| kanzure | well i'm glad brlcad is integrating with scl again | 17:38 |
| kanzure | too bad nist isn't doing what they're supposed to | 17:38 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 17:45 |
| kanzure | clifford yapp is starseeker, not clifford wolf | 17:45 |
| kanzure | so no, not the openscad guy, the brlcad guy :) | 17:46 |
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| kanzure | http://marblar.com/2012/03/dna-click-ligation/ | 17:56 |
| kanzure | http://marblar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/copper-free-click-ligation-page-nos-chem-comm-2011.pdf | 18:00 |
| kanzure | so obviously the company sponsoring the competition wants to steal all the "IP" | 18:17 |
| kanzure | "Edited by Jack W. Szostak" haha in other words 'shit is going down' | 18:25 |
| kanzure | page 2 has a better diagram of this dna ligation chemistry: http://marblar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/triazole-DNA-PNAS-with-page-Nos.pdf | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: logs.. | 18:30 |
| yashgaroth | whoa now I'm not diving into the male/female debate | 18:31 |
| kanzure | no.. the last thing | 18:31 |
| kanzure | page 2 http://marblar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/triazole-DNA-PNAS-with-page-Nos.pdf | 18:31 |
| kanzure | i haven't found the yield yet | 18:33 |
| yashgaroth | it's an interesting idea...if you can get a linker that's more efficient for synthesis than pamidites, 'twould be awesome | 18:37 |
| kanzure | i don't think anyone uses phosphoramidites to link together 100mers | 18:38 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: have you seen otherwise? | 18:38 |
| d3nd3 | kanzure: hi | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | I'd imagine people just use overlap extension pcr for that | 18:39 |
| kanzure | i think there's a technical reason that you can't join 100mers with phosphoramidite chemistry | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | efficiency would be total shit | 18:40 |
| yashgaroth | not to mention self-ligation and all that | 18:40 |
| kanzure | why would there be self-ligation? | 18:40 |
| kanzure | one end of your free-floating 100mer would be capped, another would be free to bind with valid uh.. targets | 18:41 |
| yashgaroth | depends how you're doing the reaction, but there's no real reason to attempt ligating them when you can take the 3bp overlap hit and just use pcr | 18:41 |
| kanzure | 3bp overlap is enough for extension pcr? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | what? i thought it needs to be more like.. 10-15 | 18:42 |
| yashgaroth | you'd probably want more, but still, it's easier than ligating them at the very end with pamidite chem | 18:42 |
| yashgaroth | I wonder if it'd be possible to evolve a polymerase that would recognize an entirely artificial backbone | 18:50 |
| yashgaroth | i.e. a backbone with chemistry more amenable to long strand synthesis | 18:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | damn, i thought yo were gonna make me a new lumbar spine | 18:51 |
| fenn | meep | 18:52 |
| kanzure | hi fenn | 18:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: the solution was "login again" | 19:08 |
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| kanzure | "Don't try to construct the future like a building, because your current blueprint is almost certainly mistaken." | 21:09 |
| kanzure | MY BLUEPRINT IS PERFECT | 21:09 |
| kanzure | provably so! in haskell | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | ^ | 21:11 |
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| n_bentha | hey... | 21:24 |
| n_bentha | anyone done transformation recently? | 21:24 |
| yashgaroth | does yesterday count | 21:24 |
| n_bentha | the protocol i was using hasn't been going so well. | 21:24 |
| yashgaroth | deeeetails | 21:25 |
| n_bentha | yes yashgaroth! i was going to do one today, but didn't cuz some retard who was supposed to have the bacterial cultures ready didn't. | 21:25 |
| yashgaroth | oh god you're not making your own competent cells are you | 21:25 |
| n_bentha | well it was the cacl2 method, but from some ancient book and it had lots of centrifugation steps and a really short heat-shock time, and long ice-times | 21:25 |
| n_bentha | yes yashgaroth i was | 21:25 |
| yashgaroth | you poor bastard | 21:26 |
| n_bentha | tell me about it. stupid grant doesn't come in for another few weeks | 21:26 |
| yashgaroth | so you're not getting any colonies or what | 21:26 |
| n_bentha | well i got some colonies when i tested the cells for efficiency--but not many on the plate | 21:27 |
| n_bentha | and i froze them and then tried them later, but they didn't work. then i tried to use an old stock and that didn't work either. | 21:28 |
| n_bentha | so I saw this today: http://tequals0.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/p1010516.jpg | 21:28 |
| n_bentha | could I just go ahead w/ that protocol and not make a whole batch of aliquoted competent cells? | 21:29 |
| yashgaroth | needs an ice step after the heat shock | 21:29 |
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| yashgaroth | also it sounds counterintuitive put try using less DNA | 21:31 |
| yashgaroth | but* | 21:31 |
| n_bentha | so after the initial 15 minutes on ice w/ dna, there's a 5 minute step. is that just room temp before the heat shock? | 21:32 |
| yashgaroth | god no, go straight from ice to the 42 | 21:32 |
| yashgaroth | also if you are making your own cells, make sure they're in exponential growth | 21:32 |
| yashgaroth | ice after heat shock is like 30seconds btw | 21:34 |
| n_bentha | ya that was probably the problem. stupid lab mate let them shake too long. | 21:34 |
| n_bentha | 30s? No wai! It was longer on the protocol I had. | 21:34 |
| yashgaroth | ehh you can do a few minutes, I don't usually bother | 21:35 |
| n_bentha | I guess I should go ahead and centrifuge the cells when I pull them out of the shaker, right? | 21:35 |
| n_bentha | Shit nevermind. Stupid me | 21:35 |
| yashgaroth | ya don't pellet cells you don't plan on lysing | 21:36 |
| n_bentha | I'll take the colony off the plate, stick it in the 0C cacl2 (250ul), vortex, add DNA, let it chillax for 15min, then heat shock for 90seconds, then ice for 30 and plate? | 21:37 |
| n_bentha | oh 250LB and then plate | 21:38 |
| n_bentha | Sound good? | 21:38 |
| n_bentha | And add a little less than 10uL DNA | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | I'd recommend a gentle pipetting rather than vortex, and SOC rather than LB, if you have it | 21:39 |
| n_bentha | sure. | 21:39 |
| yashgaroth | and make sure the rescue media is prewarmed, natch | 21:39 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: wait why wouldn't he make his own competent cells? | 21:39 |
| kanzure | what's the alternative? | 21:39 |
| n_bentha | order | 21:39 |
| yashgaroth | premade cells from...invitrogen's what we use, I think | 21:39 |
| n_bentha | yeah, that's what i used to use | 21:40 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: i agree with jrayhawk's nutritional advice. another vegetarian protein concentrate is pea protein, about $14/lb. most days i eat a 15 oz can of sardines for breakfast | 21:40 |
| n_bentha | hmmm...warm lb. it's got what cells crave | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | it *does* have electrolytes | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | 10g/L if I recall | 21:41 |
| fenn | why is it so hard to make your own competent cells? | 21:41 |
| fenn | i mean, aside from not having correct instructions | 21:41 |
| n_bentha | bad voodoo, fenn | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | it's not, but many people prefer the reliability of blaming someone else if it goes bad | 21:41 |
| fenn | just have your robot do it 50 times | 21:42 |
| n_bentha | yashgaroth, my competent cell protocol had a bunch of centrifugation steps. u think that's what f'd things up along w/ cell not in the growth phase?? | 21:42 |
| fenn | (what do you mean you dont have a robot?) | 21:42 |
| yashgaroth | you're sticking pelleted cells into the cacl2? | 21:42 |
| n_bentha | we couldn't afford robots, so we hired some undergrads | 21:42 |
| n_bentha | that's what the protocol i was told to follow said, yash | 21:42 |
| n_bentha | I said literally to my over-lord, "why the fuck do we have to pellet these cells?" | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | I learned it with suspension cells, but like much of bio, it's all art and little science | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | anyway that's probably not where your problems are occurring | 21:45 |
| n_bentha | "To prepare competent E. coli a culture is grown and then harvested when | 21:45 |
| n_bentha | it is in log phase, at which stage the bacteria are dividing rapidly. The cells | 21:45 |
| n_bentha | are harvested by centrifugation and washed several times in a chilled | 21:45 |
| n_bentha | buffer containing divalent cations, typically CaCl2. The bacteria are finally | 21:45 |
| n_bentha | suspended in a small volume of the buffer so that they are present at a high | 21:45 |
| n_bentha | density." | 21:45 |
| yashgaroth | how did the protocol you were using differ from that drawing you linked? | 21:46 |
| n_bentha | It had me pellet out and re-suspend the cells multiple times before adding the CaCl2 | 21:47 |
| yashgaroth | but you're still resuspending in cacl2, no? | 21:48 |
| n_bentha | and then adding the DNA after the CaCl2 step. | 21:48 |
| n_bentha | hmm I'd have to check. I think it was just re-suspending in some buffer? | 21:48 |
| yashgaroth | did you do a mock transformation with no selection on the plate? was it a lawn? | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | if you're getting less than thousands, then it's your cell health | 21:51 |
| n_bentha | no, just used the antibiotic plate | 21:52 |
| n_bentha | ok cell health it is | 21:52 |
| n_bentha | stupid cells. | 21:52 |
| n_bentha | this protocol says to just use heat: http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/physio/MolPhysiol/MolPhys/Protocols/pdfs/014.pdf | 21:52 |
| n_bentha | If that flow-chart method doesn't work this friday, I'll try w/ just heat. | 21:53 |
| yashgaroth | that still uses competent cells | 21:54 |
| n_bentha | oh god-damnit | 21:54 |
| n_bentha | sorry yashgaroth. | 21:55 |
| yashgaroth | mmm also which antibiotic are you using? | 21:55 |
| n_bentha | kanamycin | 21:56 |
| yashgaroth | oh damn make sure you do an hour incubation in the rescue media before plating | 21:56 |
| yashgaroth | you can't go straight to the selection plate unless you're using amp etc. | 21:57 |
| yashgaroth | kan'll kill them before they have a chance to express the resistance gene | 21:57 |
| n_bentha | I love you. | 21:59 |
| yashgaroth | d'aww | 21:59 |
| n_bentha | I'll let you know how it goes next week :) | 22:09 |
| yashgaroth | good good | 22:09 |
| fenn | n_bentha: how much would you be willing to pay for a lab robot? | 22:10 |
| kanzure | i think yashgaroth would be a better person to ask | 22:11 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: how much could your company save by replacing all that manual labor | 22:11 |
| n_bentha | How much would I be willing to pay or how much would my PI be willing to pay? And ya, kanzure is right. | 22:11 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: both | 22:12 |
| n_bentha | Fenn, does the robot just transform the dna, or make competent cells as well? | 22:12 |
| yashgaroth | depends heavily on how capable the robot is | 22:12 |
| kanzure | let's say both, separate, and then just one or the other | 22:12 |
| yashgaroth | how about you make a robot that runs ELISAs, those are bitch work | 22:13 |
| n_bentha | don't they already have robots for that? | 22:14 |
| kanzure | no they are all custom built or cost too much | 22:14 |
| kanzure | by "cost" i mean "sold at a ridiculously high price" | 22:14 |
| yashgaroth | for reading and washing plates, but I dunno about the whole thing | 22:14 |
| yashgaroth | like I give it a hundred sample tubes, and the next morning it tells me the concentrations for each | 22:15 |
| kanzure | yes but again | 22:16 |
| kanzure | for your company i think the value is something like salary per employee * at least 5 employees = X | 22:16 |
| kanzure | well not just salary.. but also wasted materials, wasted time, overhead, ... | 22:17 |
| yashgaroth | oh we probably pay a quarter mil per year for lab assistants | 22:17 |
| n_bentha | the ELISA_Starlet from hamilton robotics is what u want | 22:17 |
| kanzure | company of 30-50? | 22:17 |
| yashgaroth | 24ish | 22:18 |
| yashgaroth | and we're top-heavy | 22:18 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: yes but does it cost <$5k? | 22:18 |
| n_bentha | in your dreams! | 22:19 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: how much would you pay for it? | 22:19 |
| yashgaroth | ooh or a cheap colony picking machine, we're still paying phd's to pick colonies because the machine breaks | 22:19 |
| kanzure | how much do you /want/ to pay for it, i mean | 22:19 |
| kanzure | come on.. use numbers | 22:19 |
| n_bentha | i'd pay 0 dollars becuase I don't have the money. If I had a large facility that I was running (hospital?), then I'd pay alot for it. | 22:20 |
| kanzure | wrong answer | 22:20 |
| fenn | wrong question | 22:20 |
| fenn | 0 is the correct answer | 22:20 |
| fenn | anyway, what i'm after is the maximum your PI would be willing to pay | 22:20 |
| kanzure | haha that's not how PIs work though | 22:20 |
| kanzure | they just write the cost into the grant | 22:20 |
| yashgaroth | if you can entirely replace a person, then it's easily worth their salary, especially if the person you replace was annoying | 22:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think biotech companies are a better vector | 22:21 |
| n_bentha | ke ke. Idk. I'd say 50k would be reasonable if the accuracy is high. | 22:21 |
| kanzure | esp. for cost questios | 22:21 |
| fenn | biotech companies can already just buy an expensive robot | 22:21 |
| yashgaroth | ehh hospitals do a lot more repetitive shit, and they have just as much money | 22:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: then make an expensive robot | 22:21 |
| fenn | ok so why aren't they using robots? | 22:21 |
| fenn | i'll cover it in gold plating if you want | 22:22 |
| kanzure | if $5k will get something that is high precision, | 22:22 |
| kanzure | then $200k should be talking to my fucking car parked down the street | 22:22 |
| fenn | wtf do you need precision for in a lab robot | 22:22 |
| n_bentha | haha, funny fenn. | 22:22 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 22:22 |
| fenn | at most it needs to be repeatable to within a 1mm | 22:22 |
| n_bentha | 1mm is distance, i'm talking about results | 22:22 |
| fenn | now i'm confused. are you talking about volume? | 22:23 |
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| n_bentha | nevermind fenn. | 22:24 |
| * fenn mumbles something about market research firms | 22:24 | |
| n_bentha | (accuracy of true values vs values the robot gives from doing the assays) | 22:25 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: please rant about your dream features :P | 22:25 |
| kanzure | also! would you like a dna synthesizer with that? | 22:26 |
| n_bentha | Only if it's an enzymatic dna synthesizer ;) | 22:26 |
| kanzure | what about one that works based on ligation? | 22:26 |
| kanzure | like a library-based ligating device | 22:26 |
| fenn | ok i see, you're talking about something that does ELISA and i'm talking about something that just moves around and pipets stuff from one well to another | 22:27 |
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| n_bentha | ah ok fenn. but ya you can do better than 1mm accuracy even w/ moving things around. | 22:27 |
| n_bentha | some robots can be calibrated to be very precise | 22:28 |
| fenn | sure, 0.1mm is easy | 22:28 |
| n_bentha | kanzure: wouldn't a dna synth like that need a large library and lots of up-keep? or could it use enzymes and primers to re-generate its library? | 22:30 |
| n_bentha | man, we had this one robot....it was such a pain. it took so long to calibrate, and wouldn't work as fast as we had hoped, and then it didn't do it's job properly for a while at the beggining. | 22:31 |
| n_bentha | I'm still faster and more efficient than it is...but it's nice cuz it reduces eye and hand strain and is consistent now that it's 'optimized'. | 22:32 |
| fenn | what do you mean calibrating? | 22:33 |
| n_bentha | well u have to teach the robot where things are each time, and adjust parameters to make it work well | 22:34 |
| fenn | because plates are different? | 22:35 |
| fenn | i can't really see selling a robot that didnt work out of the box | 22:35 |
| n_bentha | It depends on how the robot is made and works. | 22:35 |
| fenn | let's say it has a table with a grid of attachment points | 22:36 |
| fenn | you open up the software and drag an icon of a plate carrier to the grid representation onscreen | 22:37 |
| n_bentha | But when you have a sample somewhere in space, and the robot is working around it w/ high prescision. Then you need to tell the robot this is point (0, 0), this is point (0, 100) and this is point (100,0) so that it knows the spacial relations of things. | 22:37 |
| katsmeow | vision would be oodles of help, i think | 22:37 |
| n_bentha | If the robot had some sensors or someshit, then I guess it wouldn't need a hoomin to adjust it, right? | 22:37 |
| fenn | no sensors needed, except maybe limit switches | 22:37 |
| n_bentha | Like lasers or cameras? | 22:38 |
| n_bentha | It's hard to make limit switches that small though.... | 22:38 |
| fenn | (of course i'd add some vision to check that the liquid in your pipet doesn't have any bubbles) | 22:38 |
| fenn | the switches go on the robot's axes, inside the mechanism | 22:38 |
| n_bentha | Even w/ the robot, we had to make sure it wasn't taking up air. | 22:39 |
| fenn | right | 22:39 |
| n_bentha | but what if the robot is not confined, but moving around an area freely | 22:39 |
| fenn | i'm just confused why a manufacturer would require you to calibrate something obvious like the zero position | 22:39 |
| n_bentha | that's what i had to deal w/ :( | 22:39 |
| n_bentha | idk either. i thought it was stupid. i didn't pay for the thing. | 22:40 |
| kanzure | who did? | 22:40 |
| fenn | names have been changed to protect the guilty | 22:40 |
| yashgaroth | PI/taxpayers, presumably | 22:40 |
| katsmeow | because even bolting the root to the supposed zero position doesn't in fact make it be there | 22:40 |
| fenn | eh, this is low precision stuff katsmeow | 22:41 |
| fenn | no need for kinematic mounts or laser interferometry | 22:41 |
| n_bentha | yes, PI + taxpayers | 22:41 |
| yashgaroth | even fitting a tip to a pipettor becomes high-precision without active tactile feedback | 22:42 |
| n_bentha | well i was dealing w/ high prescision stuff, fenn | 22:42 |
| fenn | oh god nevermind | 22:42 |
| n_bentha | but you have to watch out for rotational velocidensity, you know | 22:42 |
| fenn | just grease the muffler bearings | 22:42 |
| yashgaroth | not to mention spatial incontrivances | 22:42 |
| katsmeow | lol | 22:42 |
| * katsmeow has a space elevator question when this discussion is winding down | 22:43 | |
| fenn | space elevators are dumb | 22:43 |
| kanzure | katsmeow: just say it | 22:43 |
| kanzure | fuck | 22:43 |
| fenn | get a rotating tether | 22:43 |
| kanzure | you don't need permission | 22:43 |
| fenn | who dares ask questions without my permission! | 22:43 |
| delinquentme | me like elevaters | 22:43 |
| delinquentme | jar! | 22:43 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: you like anything | 22:43 |
| fenn | gah LED lighting is weird | 22:44 |
| delinquentme | lolol | 22:44 |
| katsmeow | didn't wanna interrupt, i was just grabbing a queue position | 22:44 |
| delinquentme | true | 22:44 |
| katsmeow | how does the space elevator add to the rotaional velocity of an item it's dragging to space? | 22:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you been properly cultured lately? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHJkyMo9MtU | 22:45 |
| katsmeow | there's no diagonal bracing to keep the elevator from bending over | 22:45 |
| fenn | centripetal force | 22:45 |
| delinquentme | katsmeow, cant you make it work w rockets? | 22:45 |
| n_bentha | i thought we were just going to put a rail-gun type of launcher on mars? | 22:45 |
| n_bentha | (i meant the moon) | 22:45 |
| yashgaroth | also the massive counterweigh | 22:45 |
| yashgaroth | t | 22:45 |
| katsmeow | we aren't on Mars | 22:45 |
| katsmeow | we aren't on the moon | 22:46 |
| n_bentha | yea, but if u make the moon a space base, then it makes lots of sense | 22:46 |
| katsmeow | fenn, so the item going up will just accumulate power with no input just because it was raised? | 22:46 |
| n_bentha | but ya a space elevator might be helpful @ first | 22:46 |
| fenn | katsmeow: yep, because the earth is spinning at 1rev/day | 22:46 |
| * katsmeow points to the ballerina spinning energy conservation scenario | 22:47 | |
| fenn | we already have a velocity of about 1000mph just being on the surface | 22:47 |
| yashgaroth | I'm no physitrist, but it takes the energy from slowing down the earth, no? | 22:47 |
| katsmeow | but lifting something with no force means it is going to slow down relative to the surface | 22:47 |
| n_bentha | which means that it's accelerating in the opposite direction! | 22:48 |
| fenn | who said "no force"? you're fighting against about 1g of downward acceleration most of the way up | 22:48 |
| katsmeow | ballerina spins with arms out, brings arms in and speeds up very fast,, conservation of angular momentum,, how does the elevator not fall over? | 22:48 |
| katsmeow | fenn, "down" is the wrong vector | 22:48 |
| fenn | down is toward the center of the earth | 22:48 |
| delinquentme | ^^ | 22:49 |
| fenn | force is required to draw your arms in | 22:49 |
| katsmeow | yeas, nothing to do with the queston, other than you are moving away from it, because my question applies even if there was no planet | 22:49 |
| fenn | the most stable state has the highest moment of rotational inertia | 22:49 |
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| n_bentha | doesn't the most recently proposed space elevator concept use magnets to elevate the 'arm?' | 22:50 |
| yashgaroth | it doesn't fall over because the counterweight, be it an asteroid or whatever, pulls it upright | 22:50 |
| jrayhawk | bahaha oh space elevator discussions | 22:51 |
| katsmeow | that's a lot of tension pulling out to keep the item from pushing the elevator sideways | 22:51 |
| yashgaroth | that's why you build it out of Material X | 22:51 |
| kanzure | DNA2.0 Inc.'s stats: 30% pharma, 50% agricultural chem, 20% academia | 22:51 |
| kanzure | "They ship ~100 genes a day, avg gene size 1.7 kb." | 22:51 |
| kanzure | "Est they have 50% of us market" | 22:51 |
| kanzure | 1/3 europe, 2/3 USA | 22:51 |
| kanzure | 100 genes per day is 50% of the US market? | 22:52 |
| kanzure | what the fuck | 22:52 |
| fenn | there'd be higher demand if it didn't cost so much | 22:52 |
| kanzure | duh | 22:52 |
| kanzure | 1.7 kb * $0.20/bp = aw hell no | 22:52 |
| yashgaroth | where'd you get those stats from | 22:53 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: someone went to a DNA 2.0 presentation for me | 22:53 |
| kanzure | so.. $340 * 100 = $34,000/day | 22:53 |
| yashgaroth | p. sure that's only for codon-optimized genes, using their proprietary approach, not the whole dna synth market | 22:53 |
| kanzure | gah... idt said 25,000 orders per day | 22:54 |
| fenn | katsmeow: the tension force is because the cable weighs so much, not because it needs tension to keep from "falling over" | 22:54 |
| fenn | it's already "falling" around the earth because it's in orbit | 22:54 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: ah | 22:55 |
| yashgaroth | yeah we tried them out, the codon optimization didn't help at all | 22:56 |
| katsmeow | At the same time, if we are to send any kind of a payload up or down the space elevator, its angular momentum will change by two orders of magnitude: its angular velocity is the same at top as at bottom, but angular momentum is proportional to the square of radius, which varies by an order of magnitude in the transit: this will require the cable to apply a force to the payload at right angles to the direction of the cable. | 22:56 |
| yashgaroth | then again phage display panning already tends to select for codon-optimized genes | 22:57 |
| n_bentha | OMG OMG OMG | 22:57 |
| n_bentha | space elevators are just like chromosome during anaphase! | 22:57 |
| yashgaroth | what if we make the elevator out of dna and just ride a polymerase up it | 22:58 |
| yashgaroth | or did I just blow your minds | 22:58 |
| fenn | katsmeow: the mass of the payload has to be some small fraction (10%?) of the counterweight | 22:58 |
| kanzure | what happened to just walking off the edge of the earth | 22:58 |
| kanzure | with an extended pathway | 22:58 |
| n_bentha | hehe, u need cpt. jack sparrow for that! | 22:59 |
| fenn | katsmeow: in many designs the mass of the cable itself compensates for a relatively small counterweight | 22:59 |
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| katsmeow | but i am not concerned abot the counterweight, i am asking about the side forces,, and once the cable is pushed tot he side, the distances tween earth to cog and to the counterweight change | 23:00 |
| fenn | the cable is being pulled taut by its own weight and the counterweight | 23:01 |
| katsmeow | ok | 23:01 |
| fenn | you are correct that the cable will bend | 23:01 |
| fenn | but the sideways force increases with the sine of the angle of the bend | 23:02 |
| katsmeow | well, if they ask me about this, i will haveto study this more | 23:02 |
| fenn | iirc there's a mechanism in the counterweight to reel the cable in and out to compensate for this, i never really looked into it | 23:03 |
| n_bentha | Do you think using lasers to power the climber is best? | 23:03 |
| n_bentha | Would putting sats in space that have solar panels and then beam their solar energy to the climber work? | 23:03 |
| fenn | i think using nuclear reactors is best | 23:03 |
| fenn | but nobody cares about my opinion | 23:03 |
| katsmeow | whatever lowers the weight of the car is best | 23:03 |
| katsmeow | lasers may damage the cable | 23:03 |
| n_bentha | :O | 23:04 |
| fenn | it's a long way up | 23:04 |
| fenn | how do you even focus through all that soup | 23:04 |
| n_bentha | idk :( | 23:04 |
| n_bentha | but they did it in that movie... | 23:04 |
| katsmeow | right, diffusion and the cable wandering about | 23:04 |
| fenn | katsmeow: who are you presenting to? | 23:04 |
| n_bentha | real genius | 23:04 |
| fenn | hehehe | 23:04 |
| katsmeow | no one | 23:04 |
| fenn | ok then i suggest reading the technical papers on tethers.com | 23:05 |
| * katsmeow notes that | 23:05 | |
| fenn | http://tethers.com/Bibliography.html and http://tethers.com/MXTethers.html | 23:05 |
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| katsmeow | before i foget, speaking of robots, in a different topic, http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/humanoids/dlr-super-robust-robot-hand | 23:06 |
| * katsmeow looks and feels tired | 23:06 | |
| kanzure | fenn: did you see that thing about venus project transitioning to open source? or something | 23:07 |
| kanzure | posted to OM asking for help | 23:07 |
| katsmeow | for along time i thought venus was part of seasteading | 23:07 |
| kanzure | venus is just some grumpy old man's art project | 23:08 |
| kanzure | as far as i can tell. | 23:08 |
| katsmeow | k | 23:08 |
| fenn | i think this is the right video about rotating tethers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPx1Nq80jm8 | 23:08 |
| fenn | pardon the overly epic music | 23:09 |
| katsmeow | no sound here | 23:09 |
| fenn | at about 3:15 you can see the actual momentum exchange | 23:10 |
| n_bentha | FARIL | 23:10 |
| n_bentha | FAIL* | 23:10 |
| n_bentha | space debris will wipe that shizz out | 23:10 |
| n_bentha | step 1: clean your work space | 23:11 |
| * n_bentha goes to dream about robots and space elevators | 23:11 | |
| fenn | what's not clear in the video is that the yellow orbit line changes also | 23:11 |
| fenn | n_bentha: hoyt has written extensively on the topic of space debris and creating collision resistant designs | 23:12 |
| fenn | unfortunately the space elevator fanboys are ignorant of his work | 23:12 |
| n_bentha | ya but u still need to clear up the debris for whatever you're going to be sending up into space | 23:13 |
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| katsmeow | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPx1Nq80jm8 isn't about a space elevator, it's abot flinging stuff already in leo out away from earth | 23:15 |
| fenn | the concept generalizes to suborbital payloads | 23:15 |
| fenn | it can pick thing up off the surface of the moon or from the stratosphere (supersonic aircraft) | 23:16 |
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| fenn | the tip velocity is too high to go deep into earth atmosphere; basically it will melt from friction | 23:17 |
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| superkuh | n_bentha, rotating electrodynamic tethers are the best solution for cleaning up orbit. | 23:23 |
| superkuh | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwro-ijCYZc | 23:24 |
| superkuh | http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Space/Spacecraft/EDDE_%20Electrodynamic%20Debris%20Eliminator%20for%20Active%20Debris%20Removal_%20conference_presentation.pdf | 23:25 |
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