| --- Log opened Sun May 27 00:00:22 2012 | ||
| mako | Is there anyone capable of simulating a human and a convincing environment for it, who would have trouble predicting roughly what that human would do anyway? | 00:44 |
|---|---|---|
| mako | Is such an entity plausible? | 00:44 |
| yashgaroth | by entity do you mean the simulator or the simulatee(?)? | 00:46 |
| yashgaroth | the copout answer is that you could run a separate instance of the simulation and see what happens, but I doubt that's what you mean | 00:48 |
| mako | simulator. | 00:50 |
| mako | Ah that was downright ambiguous wasn't it. | 00:51 |
| yashgaroth | mostly just calvinist | 00:52 |
| mako | Explain calvinism and how it applies to post-organic scenarios. | 00:55 |
| JayDugger | I second mako's comment. | 00:55 |
| yashgaroth | oh, I thought it was some broader philosophical reference to predestination | 00:56 |
| JayDugger | Alright. That makes sense. | 00:56 |
| mako | Predestination, no, who cares about that. | 00:56 |
| JayDugger | You'd have been better off saying "predestination." | 00:57 |
| mako | My concern is that there are certain things we should never reveal about how we work until we're sure we're not in a simulation. | 00:57 |
| JayDugger | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism | 00:57 |
| yashgaroth | ehh, calvinism's only famous for that really, but you're right | 00:57 |
| mako | Or.. Well, a particular kind of simulation. | 00:57 |
| JayDugger | You might have meant total depravity, for all I knew. | 00:57 |
| yashgaroth | what sort of things, and to whom would we reveal them? | 00:58 |
| JayDugger | Only famous for that? Not when my sister has a theology degree, it isn't. | 00:58 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 00:58 |
| JayDugger | Anyhow, $0.02 for the off-topic jar. | 00:58 |
| yashgaroth | kanz doesn't appear to be awake so let's indulge in some philosophy | 00:59 |
| JayDugger | <Kicks rock> I refute it thus. | 01:00 |
| mako | Say some post-organic alien wanted to know if, given the chance, a human-derivative being would trash undisturbed life-supporting planets. Now, if they exist, they must have decided they don't want anyone doing that or we'd be trashed by now. If we revealed in a simulation that given the slack, we would violate their rules, it would be in their best interest to thwart our attempts to ascent before we can even understand why they're doin | 01:03 |
| mako | g it. | 01:03 |
| JayDugger | And? | 01:03 |
| mako | We probably have ways of determining whether we've passed the point of simulatability. | 01:04 |
| yashgaroth | those aliens are probably too crippled by the question of whether they themselves are living in a simulation to worry about us | 01:05 |
| JayDugger | Do you lie awake at night worrying that you actually exist as a brain in a vat? | 01:05 |
| mako | I laugh. | 01:06 |
| mako | I laugh when these things occur to me. | 01:06 |
| mako | I'm proposing that if we were heinous treaty-breakers, we should hold off on revealing it externally till we know for sure that any galaxy in which our essential nature would be a relevant, simulation-worthy matter, would not be able to simulate us. | 01:08 |
| JayDugger | And how do you propose to enforce that? | 01:08 |
| mako | Just by telling people this. I expect a lot of intelligence from those powerful enough to matter. | 01:09 |
| mako | Of course the question is moot, because we are a benevolent species that would never break any treaties# | 01:09 |
| mako | *wonk* | 01:09 |
| JayDugger | And powerful intelligent people will inevitably and indefinitely act in their own long-term best interest? | 01:09 |
| mako | They don't have indefinate simulation power. | 01:10 |
| mako | If they did, we wouldn't be worth getting concerned about. | 01:10 |
| mako | Hm.. | 01:11 |
| yashgaroth | and how do we definitively determine how much simulation power they have | 01:11 |
| mako | Consider all universes in which our nature would be a worthwhile matter. If none of these universes could simulate us, we can break as many treaties as we like. | 01:11 |
| mako | I think I've hit a wall. | 01:12 |
| JayDugger | Perhaps. | 01:12 |
| mako | This just got too convoluted. | 01:12 |
| yashgaroth | so can I safely break treaties if I'm wearing a foil hat? cuz I'm meeting with russia next week and I plan to fuck them over | 01:13 |
| mako | There are, of course, other factors that come into play when it comes to shitting in the pool. | 01:14 |
| mako | But if russia could be were simulating you now, I'd say you're already fucked, because if this conversation wasn't in their simulation, simulation you would have already acted out, and you're about to walk straight into their reaction to that. | 01:15 |
| yashgaroth | ah but I already simulated their reaction, and | 01:16 |
| mako | If I could simulate 300 russians and their approximate environment, I'd just simulate myself at 2000x instead. | 01:17 |
| mako | 2000:300, that doesn't make sense, I apologize. | 01:18 |
| yashgaroth | I try not to simulate myself too often, it dulls the mind | 01:20 |
| mako | Depends where one places ones'self. | 01:21 |
| yashgaroth | have you considered taking the discussion to lesswrong? I'm sure it'd be right up their alley, what with all the, ahem, self-simulation that goes on there | 01:24 |
| mako | I'm still not sure it's worth thinking about. | 01:25 |
| mako | Or rather, I suspect I might be able to prove that it's not worth thinking about. | 01:26 |
| yashgaroth | that's true of most philosophy, I find | 01:26 |
| mako | Yeah.. | 01:27 |
| yashgaroth | whether or not the universe is a simulation is irrelevant; even if you can somehow prove it isn't, that doesn't give it any greater meaning | 01:28 |
| mako | Well no, if we can guess the nature of our simulators, that could be instructive on what we should try to do for a slim chance of escaping. | 01:29 |
| mako | But I'd say it's overwhelmingly likely we can't. Ever. | 01:30 |
| yashgaroth | I'll hold off on trying to guess until we're capable of simulating a universe ourselves | 01:30 |
| yashgaroth | and on that note, I shall adjourn for the night | 01:34 |
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| mako | Concern that our behavior at a gestational stage, such as the one we're in now, would not predict our behavior at a dangerous stage. In that case it's not worth thinking about. | 01:54 |
| mako | Concern that the only thing worth thinking about is the acquisition of thinking enhancement tools. | 01:56 |
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| kanzure | mako: if you are interested in behavior optimization for a simulated universe, let me introduce you to my cult | 07:15 |
| kanzure | i wonder if i should redeploy those old websites.. it's a shame that they aren't immediately obviously a mockery of cults | 07:16 |
| strangewarp | Simulation is worth thinking about; in terms of ancestor-simulation and Big Universe resimulation, it may be likely. But because of the mechanics of those two possibilities, it's useless to worry about it. | 07:38 |
| strangewarp | Now, distributed brute-force resimulation in a Big Universe system may make cryonics irrelevant; but cryonics would still be useful to propagate versions of you in contexts you are more likely to care about. So /shrug | 07:40 |
| chris_99 | have you read Nick Bostrom's articles on simulation | 07:41 |
| chris_99 | i thought they were pretty interesting | 07:42 |
| Urchin | big universe resimulation is a bit of a shot in the dark imo | 07:42 |
| Urchin | who knows what kind of life forms you're going to end up with | 07:42 |
| strangewarp | Urchin: That's why I give it the caveats, yeah | 07:42 |
| strangewarp | chris_99: I ought to read them again; I may have glazed over parts of them | 07:42 |
| Urchin | also, using it for imortality purposes doesn't make sense in the least | 07:43 |
| strangewarp | Urchin: In Big Universe, you'd end up with every physically possible set of lifeforms that can come to exist under rational topology | 07:44 |
| strangewarp | Relying on it for immortality purposes is a bit dodgy until it's definitively proven or disproven though, yes | 07:44 |
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| strangewarp | Definitely serves as succour for us H+ intellectuals without cryonics or capital, though | 08:16 |
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| kanzure | strangewarp: why don't you have capital? | 08:23 |
| kanzure | sounds like a silly thing to optimize for | 08:24 |
| kanzure | dose anyone have a plug-and-play symbolic regression package, possibly for R or python? | 08:31 |
| kanzure | i'm considering https://github.com/natekupp/ffx | 08:34 |
| ParahSailin | scipy stats | 08:36 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: i'm not aware of any symbolic regressors in scipy | 08:37 |
| ParahSailin | what was that famous symbolic regression one | 08:39 |
| ParahSailin | eureqa | 08:40 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: Mostly because of dumb mistakes and emotional silliness that happened when I was younger. But with any luck I'll be more successful now. | 08:41 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: yeah, i know about eureqa :) i'll try that when ffx fails and/or annoys me too much | 08:42 |
| ParahSailin | what you regressin? | 08:42 |
| kanzure | strangewarp: i wasn't trying to imply that capital==success, mind you | 08:42 |
| strangewarp | hmm, noted | 08:42 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: nothing important; it's actually something i should be able to figure out on my own, but i have about ~300 test cases and not much progress | 08:43 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: i'm trying to extract an equation from eight variables in each of these 300 test cases | 08:43 |
| kanzure | erm, i mean, a formula that will work in each of these 300 cases, using these eight variables | 08:43 |
| kanzure | unfortunately there might be two formulas across this dataset (half the samples might be governed by a separate algorithm) but i'm not sure how to deal with this eventuality | 08:44 |
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| ParahSailin | whats the data set | 09:16 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: pokemons | 09:18 |
| kanzure | also: it looks like this ffx library was written by an electronic design automation company. neat. | 09:18 |
| ParahSailin | there are only 300 pokemen? | 09:19 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: no, there's this part of the ROM that i'm disassembling for their weird map drawing algorithm.. they have "infinite maps" because maps connect to each other, and these map connections have some properties like a window and a 'connection strip pointer' that is- presumably- calculated from variables of the two maps involved | 09:20 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: see the diagram near the end here http://ximwix.net/mirrors/rhdn/index.php@topic=6427.0.html#msg102329 | 09:20 |
| kanzure | haha.. -17.8 + 0.224*connected_map_width * connected_map_height + 0.223*yoffset * connected_map_width + 0.194*connected_map_height * strip_length + 0.0380*yoffset * strip_length | 09:22 |
| kanzure | well this can't be right | 09:22 |
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| kanzure | geeze maybe i'm using it wrong. it can't even figure out "x+y+z". | 09:42 |
| ParahSailin | heh | 09:43 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: eureqa found it immediately (at least, the x+y+z case) | 09:56 |
| kanzure | neuro-sys: hi. | 09:56 |
| neuro-sys | hi kanzure | 09:57 |
| ParahSailin | sometimes the famous package is famous because it works pretty well | 10:18 |
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| kanzure | damn, and here i was really hoping to talk with "mangoat12" | 12:43 |
| kanzure | well, sort of. | 12:43 |
| kanzure | oh it's Guest88746. | 12:43 |
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| kanzure | "processes for "Turning silicon into machine-readable form". Nohl actually has an open source package to help do it." | 13:36 |
| kanzure | "Go read Tarnovsky's blog, where he has blogged about extracting keys from silicon" | 13:36 |
| kanzure | hrmm. | 13:36 |
| kanzure | http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=25 | 13:36 |
| kanzure | i don't think that's it. any ideas? | 13:36 |
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| -!- skimocha [~userid@c-24-61-126-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] | 22:28 | |
| -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:55 | |
| -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 23:24 | |
| -!- augur is now known as poststructuralis | 23:48 | |
| -!- poststructuralis is now known as augur | 23:48 | |
| --- Log closed Mon May 28 00:00:23 2012 | ||
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