| --- Log opened Mon Jun 18 00:00:03 2012 | ||
| --- Day changed Mon Jun 18 2012 | ||
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| Mokbortolan_1 | can anybody get me "Safety criteria for transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) in humans"? | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| Mokbortolan_1 | I'd give you an internet cookie | 00:10 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | the good kind | 00:10 |
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| jrayhawk | internet cookies give you internet diabetes | 00:24 |
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| Mariu | jrayhawk: I think the Google ones are sugar free :O | 00:25 |
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| archels | Mokbortolan_: It's just a two page short; still need it? | 04:17 |
| Utopiah | no idea how it fares again scholar.reddit.com http://www.pirateuniversity.org | 04:19 |
| Mokbortolan_ | yes plz | 04:20 |
| Mokbortolan_ | having a hard time finding anything about pulsed tDCS | 04:20 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I had the idea of multiplexing multiple stimulation patterns | 04:21 |
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| archels | Mokbortolan_: http://turingbirds.com/temp/safety%20criteria%20for%20tDCS.PDF | 04:30 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | Thanks! | 04:35 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Here you go: http://imgur.com/w0GBM | 04:36 |
| archels | haha, thankies | 04:38 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | good! it says that it should at least be safe | 04:45 |
| Mokbortolan_ | within limits | 04:46 |
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| Utopiah | http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/pbs-will-machines-make-human-workers-obsolete-ray-kurzweil-weighs-in/ | 05:11 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: i am definitely not in the hood | 06:26 |
| @kanzure | pirate university sounds like an okay idea | 06:26 |
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| chido | kanzure: still at langton? I just got back home | 06:52 |
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| @kanzure | chido: no i'm home in austin, texas | 07:26 |
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| @kanzure | Mokbortolan_: try Liebetanz et al., 2006 for pulsed tdcs stuff? | 07:33 |
| @kanzure | ahh cumpolsary patent licensing. a hilarious concept. http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/v76y2/indian_drug_giant_cipla_cuts_cost_of_cancer/ | 07:37 |
| @kanzure | (with aplogies for linking to reddit) | 07:38 |
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| @kanzure | hi Magic-Smoke. | 07:55 |
| Magic-Smoke | Hello | 07:56 |
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| @kanzure | so apparently allen brain institute has a hackathon | 08:24 |
| @kanzure | going on right now. | 08:24 |
| @kanzure | i am angry >:( | 08:24 |
| @kanzure | http://www.alleninstitute.org/Assets/images/events/Hackathon_flyer.pdf | 08:24 |
| @kanzure | seems to be in seattle | 08:24 |
| @kanzure | slide 2 is awesome here: http://ai.stanford.edu/~serafim/CS374_2011/presentations/lecture6.pdf | 08:26 |
| @kanzure | "DNA sequencing per dollar is increasing faster than storage capacity per dollar" | 08:26 |
| @kanzure | welp i'm screwed | 08:27 |
| @kanzure | 'cept compression | 08:32 |
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| audy | kanzure you heard of that new fastq compression algorithm? | 08:59 |
| @kanzure | no? | 09:08 |
| audy | kanzure oh hold on | 09:09 |
| audy | there was a $15K prize for best fastq compression algo | 09:09 |
| audy | I think this guy won https://github.com/dcjones/quip | 09:09 |
| audy | I've been using bzip and storing Illumina runs on S3. I have about 6 on there and it costs less than $10/mo | 09:11 |
| @kanzure | http://gridbeamwiki.org/ | 09:22 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: ah sorry, no i'm not at the asm conference :/ | 09:25 |
| @kanzure | juul: yes i went to the startup science thing.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/startup-science-2012/ | 09:26 |
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| Lukas | Good afternoon | 09:31 |
| Lukas | its been quite a while since I've been here | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | _F7_: https://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs | 09:32 |
| _F7_ | already there | 09:33 |
| @kanzure | well ok then | 09:33 |
| @kanzure | http://nipy.sourceforge.net/dipy/examples_built/tractography_clustering.html | 09:33 |
| @kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNB0sM7JJqg | 09:33 |
| Lukas | wow | 09:37 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/the-northerner/2012/jun/18/manchestermetropolitanuniversity-biology-diybio-madlab-fbi-california-conference | 09:44 |
| @kanzure | http://www.lancs.ac.uk/sci-tech/news/001401/diy-techie-innovators-working-with-homeless-on-prototype-healthcare-tool | 09:45 |
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| Lukas | What's up Thomas | 09:50 |
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| @kanzure | hi archbox | 09:58 |
| _F7_ | wow I've got a lot to catch up on | 10:19 |
| _F7_ | I'll be switching to round electrodes for sure | 10:19 |
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| ThomasEgi | Lukas, me? | 10:28 |
| Lukas | yup | 10:28 |
| ThomasEgi | still working on a microphone amplifier that defeats some laws i got taught in university | 10:28 |
| Lukas | how is that working out? | 10:29 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. dunno. i have 3 different approaches so far (besides the ones you can find in textbooks) | 10:30 |
| ThomasEgi | one should work as advertised, but requires comparebly huge voltages to operat (bout 80Volts) and is prone to humidity. | 10:30 |
| ThomasEgi | the 2nd idea i had is even more promising. but the simulation software faints when i try to run it at the desired operating point. | 10:31 |
| ThomasEgi | even the DC analysis fails, despite the software trying out 4 different fallback algorithms | 10:31 |
| ThomasEgi | and the 3rd one, i am not ready for simulation yet | 10:32 |
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| Lukas | What are you going to use the amplifier for? | 10:35 |
| ThomasEgi | ... to amplify a microphone signal. | 10:38 |
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| Lukas | or rather by using your method will you be able to downsize the amplifier? | 10:43 |
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| ThomasEgi | no? | 10:57 |
| ThomasEgi | i don't care about the size. but about the acustic performance. | 10:57 |
| ThomasEgi | microphone amplifiers are quite a bit of a extreme. they require insanely high input impedances (up to 100 Gigaohm), yet have to be very very low noise | 10:58 |
| ThomasEgi | and on top of that, highly linear so you don't get any distortions | 10:58 |
| ThomasEgi | i got the low noise part and linearity quite well. but i am still struggeling with the impedances | 10:58 |
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| ThomasEgi | appears.. i found another unusual option | 11:35 |
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| Lukas | oh? | 11:39 |
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| archels | Lukas: Hi, what's new? | 12:17 |
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| randallagordon | Hello, hello! What's new? | 12:25 |
| archels | That's what I'd like to know. | 12:26 |
| Vicarious | Hi | 12:26 |
| randallagordon | Been quite a while since I poked my head in around here, but I still see a few familiar names. | 12:29 |
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| * ThomasEgi thinks.. he screwed physics | 12:32 | |
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| ThomasEgi | jep. i did. | 12:41 |
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| @kanzure | hey randallagordon. | 13:50 |
| Jenda` | Who was interested in tDCS here? We have something in our wiki: http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs | 13:55 |
| @kanzure | Jenda`: _F7_ has a physical setup | 13:56 |
| @kanzure | _F7_: ping | 13:56 |
| _F7_ | hello | 13:56 |
| _F7_ | ah, tdcs? | 13:57 |
| _F7_ | yeah, that's a really easy build | 13:57 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Jenda`: That'd be me | 13:57 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Jenda`: is that a topic on which you are professionally interested? | 13:57 |
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| Jenda` | Oh, I see it was already posted here. | 13:58 |
| _F7_ | professionally? | 13:58 |
| Jenda` | Mokbortolan_: No, it's not my project. | 13:58 |
| Mokbortolan_ | ahh, ok | 13:58 |
| Jenda` | One of our member is. | 13:58 |
| Mokbortolan_ | thanks for the link! | 13:58 |
| Mokbortolan_ | oh yah, I've seen that page | 13:58 |
| Mokbortolan_ | trying to find out if high-frequency tDCS is safe | 13:59 |
| Mokbortolan_ | like, +1khz | 13:59 |
| _F7_ | The first one I built was just a Jfet and a trimpot with an LED and some sponge electrodes | 13:59 |
| Mokbortolan_ | so far I've found out that =< 100 is painful | 13:59 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I had the idea of using time-division multiplexing with an electrode ... matrix? montage? | 14:00 |
| _F7_ | Now I've got one that ramps on and off over the span of two minutes, because I found out that fast ramping is kind of alarming | 14:00 |
| Mokbortolan_ | and I'm trying to see if it's even feasible | 14:00 |
| Jenda` | _F7_: Our first version was a 9V battery and trimmer :) | 14:01 |
| _F7_ | need a transistor in there | 14:01 |
| _F7_ | or else your resistance can change and that changes the current | 14:01 |
| Mokbortolan_ | yeah, LM334 | 14:02 |
| Jenda` | Yes, now there is some better circuitry. | 14:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | someone in here designed a nice circuit, I still have the schematic | 14:02 |
| Jenda` | But it still looks scary :) | 14:02 |
| _F7_ | haha | 14:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's only scary if you're afraid of a little electricity | 14:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | "A little electricity never hurt anybody, unless it went through their heart." | 14:02 |
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| Jenda` | https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeniks/5438348119/in/set-72157626031679738 | 14:03 |
| _F7_ | @Mokbortolan_ are you interested in just using one stable pulsed DC frequency per run? | 14:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | _F7_: no, I was interested in multiplexing different current paths | 14:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | well, yeah | 14:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I guess they'd all be the same frequency | 14:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | just a bit out of phase | 14:04 |
| _F7_ | interesting, so >3 electrodes? | 14:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | right | 14:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | there's a couple of guys who used multi-path tDCS and some fancy math | 14:04 |
| _F7_ | that sounds interesting | 14:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | they were (according to their simulations) able to guide the current | 14:04 |
| Mokbortolan_ | my idea is a little like that, but with less math | 14:04 |
| @kanzure | don't be afraid of math | 14:05 |
| Jenda` | You can mail him, maybe he would be interested into multiplexed tDCS. http://brmlab.cz/user/ata | 14:05 |
| @kanzure | Jenda`: does ata do irc? | 14:05 |
| _F7_ | I was going to suggest something with bilateral switches and schmitt triggers, but it sounds like you'd need a computer. | 14:05 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Ok, I'll email him, though I'm still in the "is this even reasonable" phase of discovery | 14:05 |
| Jenda` | kanzure: Very rately. | 14:05 |
| @kanzure | Jenda`: laaame | 14:05 |
| Mokbortolan_ | there are very, very few studies (that I can find) on pulsed tDCS | 14:05 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I'm not afraid of math, but I like to keep my learning curves at a manageable height :p | 14:06 |
| Jenda` | Ha ha, some of our members still ask "FBI DIYbio - *that* FBI?!?!" :) | 14:07 |
| Mokbortolan_ | they're just trying to keep tabs on all the would-be flubola makers | 14:07 |
| @kanzure | Mokbortolan_: actually no... they just want to keep tabs on /community/ labs | 14:10 |
| @kanzure | they don't seem particularly concerned about non-lab-affiliated individuals | 14:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | fair enough | 14:10 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it was a lab-affiliated fellow who mailed all that funny white powder around almost a decade ago | 14:11 |
| Mokbortolan_ | man I feel old | 14:11 |
| @kanzure | yep there are far more phd's out there than 'amateurs' | 14:11 |
| _F7_ | I just think it's cool that I don't have to worry about the FBI imploding if DIYbio members start exchanging B. subtilis endospores. | 14:14 |
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| @kanzure | http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/06/18/1635207/do-it-yourself-biology-research-past-and-present | 14:18 |
| @kanzure | http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/columnists/laura-h-kahn/diy-biology | 14:19 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/06/plastination-is-near.html | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | "An anonymous donor has actually funded a $100K Brain Preservation Prize, paid to the first team(s) to pass this test on a human brain, with a quarter of the prize going to those that first pass the test on a mouse brain." | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | "Cryonics and plastination teams have already submitted whole mouse brains to be tested. The only hitch is that the prize organization needs money (~25-50K$) to actually do the tests." | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | "We seem close to having a feasible plastination technique, where for a few 10K$ or less one could fill a brain with plastic, saving its key brain info for future revival in an easily stored form. We may only lack donations of a similar amount to actually test that it does actually save this key brain info. (And if the first approach fails, perhaps to test a few revisions.)" | 14:27 |
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| atum | dated a girl from ashburn for a day or so | 14:29 |
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| @kanzure | hi n_bentha. | 14:35 |
| n_bentha | hey kanzure | 14:35 |
| chris_99 | kanzure, you know you mentioned that python thing you're making for interacting with webkit, does that need X for webkit to run do you know | 14:43 |
| @kanzure | chris_99: the latest version claims to not need it | 14:44 |
| @kanzure | http://phantomjs.org/ | 14:44 |
| chris_99 | sweet | 14:44 |
| @kanzure | http://github.com/kanzure/pyphantomjs | 14:44 |
| @kanzure | most of the documentation is through the phantomjs site though | 14:44 |
| chris_99 | "Note: The information hosted here is for historical purposes only. Starting from PhantomJS version 1.5, the Linux version is pure headless and does not need X11/Xlib anymore and thus there is no need to use Xvfb. " | 14:46 |
| chris_99 | awesome | 14:46 |
| @kanzure | the python version is a bit older however | 14:46 |
| @kanzure | it might not work without x, but you should check | 14:46 |
| @kanzure | the python reimplementation happens to /also/ implement a command line wrapper, which could presumably work with phantomjs 1.5 or 1.6 | 14:46 |
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| chris_99 | can you download files with it? | 14:48 |
| @kanzure | hell yeah | 14:49 |
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| @kanzure | you can do all sorts of thinsg with it, yes.. including downloading files. | 14:49 |
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| chris_99 | awesome :) | 14:52 |
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| chido | Jenda`: oh cool welcome | 15:12 |
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| kanzure | "I killed countless goldfish trying to find a way to freeze even a fraction of the water in their bodies - including by placing them in 5% DMSO in water - which they equilibrate with and tolerate reasonably well at 18-20 deg C. No success. In fact, goldfish seem to be really intolerant of ice formation." | 16:10 |
| kanzure | "You can easily convert 50% of the water in a golden (Syrian) hamster's body to ice and probably 60-70% of the water in its brain to ice, and it will recover well. Ditto juvenile red eared slider turtles; something I did endlessly as a child; probing the limits of ice formation and tolerable duration of freezing." | 16:10 |
| kanzure | " Even rabbits and galagoes (primates) will recover acutely from ~50% of their body water being frozen - though they do not survive long. All these animals are hard as plank of wood; rigid and utterly lifeless." | 16:11 |
| kanzure | "The original work on hamsters was conducted in the 1950s by Audrey Smith and Sir James Lovelock in the 1950s at the NRC's Mill Hill in London. The original papers are mostly available only for pay, but one documenting their work freezing pregnant golden hamsters is as available as a full text:" | 16:11 |
| kanzure | http://dev.biologists.org/content/5/4/311.full.pdf | 16:11 |
| kanzure | "Smith's classic book, BIOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF FREEZING AND SUPERCOOLING is not available on line, to my knowledge. However, a good (recent) review book by Peter Steponkus, LIFE IN THE FROZEN STATE can be accessed here:" | 16:11 |
| kanzure | http://cryoeuro.eu:8080/download/attachments/720979/ebooksclub.org__Life_in_the_Frozen_State.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1323259714637 | 16:11 |
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| _Sketch_ | Cool. | 16:30 |
| chido | cool indeed. | 16:31 |
| kanzure | "Aw, it makes me sad to write this and ruin your fond fernery, but I assure you that you pet fish was not frozen. It's an easy mistake to make and many have made it before you and mum." | 16:36 |
| kanzure | "The freezing point of fish tissue is about -0.5 deg C, and what more, because the salts and proteins present in a living animal, and the mucus coating, they have a propensity to supercool - to stay unfrozen well below their actual freezing point of -0.5 deg C. In fact, you can supercool hamsters to -5 deg C, and sometimes to even -10 deg C!" | 16:36 |
| kanzure | "Thus, what happens is that in a slowly freezing system of a fish in a bowl of water the water freezes and the fishes doers not - it remains in a pocket of unfrozen solution - either supercooled or simply not yet at its freezing point." | 16:36 |
| kanzure | "If the ice is melted before freezing occurs, or before too much ultraprofound anoxic hypothermic time has elapsed, the fish swims away none the worse for wear." | 16:36 |
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| kanzure | Juul: so why isn't a pipe what cathal needs for his python problem? | 17:19 |
| Juul | kanzure, it is, but the way I understood it is that he doesn't want to modify the OpenPCR code, which is what is writing this to a plain file. | 17:19 |
| Juul | we really shouldn't use plain files for this kind of communication | 17:20 |
| Juul | i think this is fallout from an OpenPCR fail | 17:21 |
| kanzure | yeah, i agree | 17:21 |
| kanzure | john griessen is offering to redo openpcr, i might take him up on his offer | 17:21 |
| kanzure | and throw him a few bucks | 17:21 |
| Juul | ok | 17:21 |
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| kanzure | i want him to write down a proposal first so that i can look at it.. a pic or something would be lightyears ahead of this | 17:21 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: hi. | 17:35 |
| yashgaroth | oh hey sup | 17:36 |
| yashgaroth | I made it halfway down the coast, gonna check out some elephant seals | 17:37 |
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| kanzure | hunting? | 17:37 |
| yashgaroth | nah they're too easy | 17:37 |
| yashgaroth | they just lay on the beach and make loud noises, rather unsporting | 17:38 |
| chido | yashgaroth: how was Prometheus? | 17:50 |
| yashgaroth | ehh the 3d kinda sucked, but otherwise it was okay | 17:53 |
| yashgaroth | you caught your plane I take it? | 17:53 |
| chido | barely, checking in took ages | 17:54 |
| chido | I spent the whole 11 hours studying for that damn exam, now I feel like a zombie | 17:54 |
| yashgaroth | a biology zombie! at least | 17:54 |
| kanzure | drugs should fix that | 17:54 |
| chido | not sure this is the right moment to start experimenting | 17:55 |
| yashgaroth | it's always the right moment | 17:55 |
| chido | it's also crazy hot over here, like 35 degrees celsius | 17:56 |
| bkero | ですですです | 17:56 |
| yashgaroth | not too many drugs for weather control, sadly | 17:59 |
| ThomasEgi | silverjodite? | 17:59 |
| JayDugger | How about an ice pack? | 18:00 |
| ThomasEgi | how bout digging a hole into the ground?. after a few meters the temperatures should reach the annual-average temps | 18:01 |
| ThomasEgi | which are usualy pretty comfortable in most places of this planet | 18:01 |
| chido | a ziplock bag with frozen pregnant hamsters | 18:01 |
| yashgaroth | you guys have strange definitions of "drugs" | 18:01 |
| ThomasEgi | my new best friend, the tower fan^ | 18:02 |
| chido | my appartment is on the fourth floor and I'm too lazy to get to ground level | 18:02 |
| yashgaroth | anyway I'm off to get food, bbl | 18:04 |
| chido | good luck | 18:04 |
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| kanzure | http://soundcloud.com/evolutionista/priceless-2011 | 18:27 |
| * chido likes | 18:34 | |
| kanzure | chido: that's sorta from langton labs i guess | 18:36 |
| kanzure | i think priceless is an event that false profit puts on, not sure | 18:37 |
| chido | it's making me awfully sleepy | 18:37 |
| chido | but it's fitting for listening to at 3:38 AM | 18:38 |
| chido | I was just complaining I have nothing to listen to; you solved my problem right there | 18:41 |
| kanzure | you could also consider http://8tracks.com/ | 18:42 |
| kanzure | chido: or this.. http://roll.io/#rjqm!0 | 18:48 |
| _Sketch_ | mmmm. Music. | 18:54 |
| _Sketch_ | I asked this question a while ago: Are there backless OLED/LED screens, for HUDs? | 19:03 |
| _Sketch_ | Small HUDs. | 19:03 |
| kanzure | i thought most setups use a mirror to project it onto the glass | 19:04 |
| JayDugger | The HUDs where I work project directly from a CRT onto a glass. | 19:06 |
| JayDugger | I don't see any reason in principle you couldn't use any type of screen for the projection source. | 19:06 |
| kanzure | http://fennetic.net/irc/cyberfenn/hplus_proposal/ | 19:07 |
| JayDugger | It wouldn't work with the exact HUDs used at my employer, but that happens because they rely on video tricks that only work with CRTs. | 19:07 |
| JayDugger | And those devices are ridiculously overpriced, anyway. | 19:08 |
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| JayDugger | Thanks, kanzure. I didn't know fenn worked on that project. | 19:40 |
| JayDugger | I dislike the notion of chording keyboards. When I have used unusual keyboards in public they proved more trouble than they were worth. I spent more time ignoring people staring or answering their questions than typing. | 19:42 |
| JayDugger | SFO might not have that problem. | 19:42 |
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| JayDugger | I don't know that Blame! makes a good UI design model, but both pieces of placeholder art serve well. | 19:44 |
| kanzure | i haven't tested my performance on chorded keyboards | 19:44 |
| JayDugger | They might work well in private. They draw too much attention in public, IME. | 19:44 |
| JayDugger | I'd think you'd get a trade-off between discretion and input efficiency. If you could use finger sensors (bend or acoustic for taps) perhaps you could have an invisible virtual keyboard: your choice of QWERTY, DVORAK, or even fretboards or keyboards. | 19:46 |
| kanzure | i get attention when i am doing my "creepy transcripting thing" even on qwerty, so i just talk to whoever while i am typing | 19:47 |
| kanzure | it's more efficient than stopping my typing | 19:47 |
| JayDugger | That reminds me: thank you for the recent transcripts. | 19:47 |
| kanzure | you're welcome. | 19:50 |
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