| --- Log opened Sat Jun 30 00:00:55 2012 | ||
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| strangewarp | Fox News Qatar... what an enlightening thought | 00:12 |
|---|---|---|
| strangewarp | ps kanzure: you may want to IP-ban, if you're serious about keeping that guy out | 00:16 |
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| neuroscientist | lets get this party started shall we? | 11:40 |
| * ThomasEgi hands neuroscientist a party had.. go one | 11:45 | |
| ThomasEgi | *on | 11:45 |
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| @kanzure | "you cannot perform an ACH transfer between two individuals" wtf is the point then | 12:12 |
| atomicfawkes | http://www.snopes.com/fraud/phishing/nacha.asp | 12:14 |
| atomicfawkes | Fake ACH Transfer Failure Notifications Spread ZeuS | 12:15 |
| @kanzure | why are you still here | 12:21 |
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| atomicfawkes | ask yourself that same question | 12:23 |
| atomicfawkes | why is anyone here? | 12:23 |
| atomicfawkes | i dont see why you feel the need to attack me for no reason | 12:23 |
| atomicfawkes | so there is no reason NOT to be here | 12:24 |
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| ThomasEgi | the nonusage of doublenegation is strictly prohibited?... | 12:31 |
| atomicfawkes | I went back to molecular crypto today | 12:32 |
| atomicfawkes | using proteins to do math | 12:32 |
| atomicfawkes | in a petri dish | 12:32 |
| atomicfawkes | theres somethign to that | 12:32 |
| atomicfawkes | biocomputers | 12:32 |
| atomicfawkes | humans are good enough that technology is still an accessory | 12:33 |
| atomicfawkes | im workign on a theory that its sort of like leapfrog. | 12:34 |
| atomicfawkes | humans need food and water to survive | 12:34 |
| atomicfawkes | in order for western civlization to survive humans need food, water, clothes, power, internet | 12:35 |
| atomicfawkes | transportation | 12:35 |
| atomicfawkes | the leapfrog comes in when we need the internet and power to survive | 12:35 |
| atomicfawkes | and some of us have even moved beyond that | 12:35 |
| atomicfawkes | or have moved past the point of food and water | 12:36 |
| atomicfawkes | and literally require electricity | 12:36 |
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| AlonzoTG | I had a 2 day internet outage recently due to a botched speed upgrade (from 6 to 8 megs down and from 768k to 1meg up) | 13:27 |
| AlonzoTG | I also had an 18 hour power outage due to a hurricane strength thunderstorm that came through last night. | 13:27 |
| AlonzoTG | Because I'm not an upload, neither was fatal. | 13:28 |
| AlonzoTG | =P | 13:28 |
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| eudoxia | Note to self: computers for uploads should use NVRAM and switch on automatically once they are plugged in | 13:40 |
| atomicfawkes | yeah 94mph was the highest recorded gust last night | 13:42 |
| atomicfawkes | they were saying 80mph in some places | 13:43 |
| atomicfawkes | it was at least 50 here | 13:43 |
| atomicfawkes | trees down | 13:43 |
| atomicfawkes | i thought we were having a tornado | 13:43 |
| atomicfawkes | tornado ally has moved east a little | 13:43 |
| atomicfawkes | and for the fist time in history my area is getting tornadosa | 13:44 |
| atomicfawkes | we had a couple last year | 13:44 |
| atomicfawkes | never before | 13:44 |
| atomicfawkes | one just half a mile from my house here | 13:44 |
| atomicfawkes | i could hear it | 13:44 |
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| augur | beep | 13:52 |
| eudoxia | boop | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | hi | 13:54 |
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| augur | tell me about self-assembly! | 14:05 |
| @kanzure | i think reading anything by anyone named "manu-whatever" at CBA/MIT will give you an okay overview of self-assembly | 14:05 |
| @kanzure | in addition, paul rothemund or erik winfree's stuff can give you an okay overview of dna self-assembly | 14:06 |
| @kanzure | http://dna.caltech.edu/ | 14:06 |
| augur | hm! | 14:07 |
| atomicfawkes | corps in the beltway were hireing up ppl to do protein assembly | 14:07 |
| atomicfawkes | a few years ago | 14:07 |
| atomicfawkes | dna is sort of quantum | 14:07 |
| atomicfawkes | its not exactly binary | 14:08 |
| @kanzure | of course it's not binary. are you a biologist? | 14:08 |
| eudoxia | it's... quaternary? | 14:08 |
| atomicfawkes | i met francis collins at least once | 14:08 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: uracil sometimes gets in there, actually | 14:08 |
| eudoxia | yeah, that's what I thought, but isn't that for RNA exclusively? | 14:09 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: and then you have modified nucleotides. anyway, i don't see what quantum anything has to do with the bit representation. | 14:09 |
| atomicfawkes | adn the ciso for the head of all us spy agencies | 14:09 |
| atomicfawkes | ive done many things | 14:09 |
| @kanzure | no i think uracil can get into dna on occassion | 14:09 |
| eudoxia | that's interesting | 14:09 |
| @kanzure | atomicfawkes: can you please refrain from talking about spy agencies, quantum conscious dna, 9/11, or any of the other things i've kicked you for | 14:09 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12483510 | 14:09 |
| @kanzure | "Uracil in DNA--occurrence, consequences and repair." | 14:09 |
| atomicfawkes | until you come up with another reason | 14:10 |
| atomicfawkes | sure | 14:10 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: lots of things can go 'wrong' with dna | 14:10 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: you know, the other day I was thinking: our chem teacher showed us a video about DNa where some guy said they stored the sequence in a .txt file, and I thought, "that's inefficient, if you have 4 nucleotide types you can store 4 per char", but this totally fucks that up | 14:12 |
| atomicfawkes | ive been kicked out of a county in mississippi, cody wyoming and atlanta. in mississippi , (reminds me of you) , i asked them on what charges and they told me 'we'll think of something' | 14:12 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: not really.. your detection method probably only detects the four nucleotides anyway | 14:12 |
| atomicfawkes | i am genuinely interested in human advancement and biology and have a wide range of experince | 14:12 |
| eudoxia | oh good | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | if you were given a strand of church's "unnatural dna" (with the engineered nucleotides for an engineered polymerase), you wouldn't be able to sequence it reliably (without a different sequencing chemistry) | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | atomicfawkes: interest isn't enough to let you troll in here with your wacky noise | 14:13 |
| atomicfawkes | who's trolling | 14:15 |
| eudoxia | so it would just report the closest nucleotide to what's actually there? | 14:15 |
| atomicfawkes | waky noise is a subjective issue, it takes a villiage | 14:16 |
| @kanzure | atomicfawkes: no it doesn't take a village, go away | 14:16 |
| atomicfawkes | you're just hateful | 14:17 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: depends on your sequencing chemistry, sorry dude | 14:17 |
| @kanzure | atomicfawkes: yes i am | 14:17 |
| ThomasEgi | eudoxia, how bout base64. not as messed up but still a bit more efficient | 14:21 |
| @kanzure | base64 makes it more complicated to do BLAST | 14:21 |
| eudoxia | are you talking about some biochem thing or the encoding scheme | 14:22 |
| ThomasEgi | the actual encoding of the storage. | 14:22 |
| ThomasEgi | anyone ever did ever meassured the entropy of an dna string? like how much it can be compressed with todays algorithms? | 14:23 |
| @kanzure | it can be compressed pretty well if you allow yourself to reference genes and sequences from ncbi's website | 14:23 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. i was more like compressing the whole sequence as it is. without further need of references other than the decompressing algorithm | 14:29 |
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| @kanzure | ThomasEgi: not sure why you would do that when we already have a global index on the web | 14:35 |
| ThomasEgi | curiosity. and it never hurts to have a complete backup | 14:36 |
| @kanzure | well, as far as i know, it's a few terabytes of data on their ftp server | 14:36 |
| @kanzure | if you can get that down to a few gigs, i'll take a copy | 14:37 |
| ThomasEgi | that is what i was wondering about. how compressible dna information is | 14:37 |
| atomicfawkes | I was referrign to dna in the quantum computing sense (ban me if you like) because its not exactly binary | 14:38 |
| atomicfawkes | so in the means of storing data is exponentially more efficient | 14:38 |
| atomicfawkes | as well as the speed at which its processed | 14:38 |
| atomicfawkes | because you have multiple sets of data instead of multiple cores | 14:39 |
| atomicfawkes | cdma | 14:39 |
| @kanzure | i don't think you're communicating anything meaningful right now. | 14:40 |
| atomicfawkes | you have to think about what im saying | 14:40 |
| atomicfawkes | thats all | 14:40 |
| @kanzure | you're not saying anything. | 14:40 |
| atomicfawkes | AT GC is 2 sets of binary | 14:41 |
| atomicfawkes | processed by the same core | 14:41 |
| atomicfawkes | instead of multiple cores | 14:41 |
| @kanzure | what the fuck is a core | 14:41 |
| atomicfawkes | mitochondria | 14:41 |
| @kanzure | sigh | 14:41 |
| eudoxia | whut | 14:41 |
| yashgaroth | hahaha | 14:42 |
| @kanzure | i don't even know how to describe to you how wrong you are right now | 14:43 |
| atomicfawkes | its an analogy | 14:44 |
| atomicfawkes | it doesnt have to be right | 14:44 |
| @kanzure | no, it's shit and you should leave | 14:44 |
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| atomicfawkes | so youre saying that dna isnt a stream of data? | 14:46 |
| atomicfawkes | or that information isnt contained in dna based on the paring of the halves? | 14:47 |
| atomicfawkes | what are you disagreeing with exactly | 14:47 |
| yashgaroth | 1 being 'not exactly binary' does not make something quantum by default | 14:47 |
| yashgaroth | 2 the speed at which dna is written (not copied, mind you) is excruciatingly slow | 14:48 |
| ThomasEgi | atomicfawkes, listening to you.... what you imply is that a 2bit computer is more powerful than a 64bit one^^ | 14:48 |
| yashgaroth | 3 you don't seem to know what a mitochondrion is | 14:48 |
| atomicfawkes | its been a while | 14:49 |
| @kanzure | this is just, not helpful at all | 14:49 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, altho i love to disagrre with you, i totaly agree with you on this one | 14:49 |
| atomicfawkes | only quantum in the sense that its not binary | 14:51 |
| atomicfawkes | have you | 14:51 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o yashgaroth] by kanzure | 14:51 | |
| atomicfawkes | that more states that 1 and 0 | 14:51 |
| atomicfawkes | offer exponential opportunities | 14:51 |
| atomicfawkes | for data | 14:51 |
| * ThomasEgi greps some popcorn to enjoy the upcomming event | 14:52 | |
| atomicfawkes | so with multiple streams of data opposed to multiple cores | 14:52 |
| atomicfawkes | its similar to cellphone technology | 14:52 |
| atomicfawkes | cdma | 14:52 |
| atomicfawkes | code divisional multiple access | 14:52 |
| ThomasEgi | cdma stands for collision detection multiple access. and has little to do with cellphones. | 14:53 |
| atomicfawkes | lol | 14:53 |
| atomicfawkes | cdma was developed by a pianist and a singer | 14:53 |
| atomicfawkes | george antheil and heddy lemar | 14:53 |
| atomicfawkes | and was used to guide torpedos | 14:54 |
| ThomasEgi | seems there are many meanings for cdma. and none belongs into this channel | 14:54 |
| atomicfawkes | dna is code | 14:54 |
| atomicfawkes | id assume that hplus would require modifiying that code | 14:55 |
| atomicfawkes | other wise there is no plus | 14:55 |
| @yashgaroth | *!*@*75*105*14*63* should work well | 14:55 |
| atomicfawkes | its not human road map | 14:56 |
| atomicfawkes | its about how to make a better humanity | 14:56 |
| @kanzure | atomicfawkes: that has nothing to do with quantum mitochondria | 14:56 |
| @kanzure | this isn't about humanity. | 14:56 |
| atomicfawkes | of course not | 14:56 |
| @kanzure | you are not being coherent | 14:56 |
| ThomasEgi | m( | 14:56 |
| atomicfawkes | is it not in the colective interest of this channel to discuss and develop different methods of advancing humanity | 14:59 |
| atomicfawkes | its in the topic | 14:59 |
| atomicfawkes | biohacking | 14:59 |
| @kanzure | nothing you have said today is on-topic | 14:59 |
| atomicfawkes | thers a point to it | 14:59 |
| ThomasEgi | you admit that you are not making sense? | 15:00 |
| ThomasEgi | can't tell if phylosophic, or just confused. | 15:00 |
| atomicfawkes | ThomasEgi, he's admittadly on medication for metal issues, so idk, who knows if he's making sense or not | 15:06 |
| atomicfawkes | we can move past that | 15:06 |
| atomicfawkes | what is the hplusroadmap | 15:06 |
| atomicfawkes | what are the goals of bio hacking, and how should it be directed? | 15:09 |
| atomicfawkes | or directed at all.. | 15:09 |
| @kanzure | Metal issues. | 15:10 |
| eudoxia | was that a typo? | 15:11 |
| @yashgaroth | EDTA therapy, I'm sure | 15:12 |
| atomicfawkes | http://reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/vuvoj+ | 15:15 |
| atomicfawkes | metal issues | 15:16 |
| atomicfawkes | how freudian | 15:16 |
| ThomasEgi | hm metal issues would be indeed a problem. i don't own a lathe, so metalworking is very difficult for me. | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | aha that explains it. another reddit user. :( | 15:35 |
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| chido | good evening gentlemen | 15:43 |
| chido | I gave a talk today at our hackerspace about the DIYbio FBI trip and people liked it | 15:44 |
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| @kanzure | chido: neat. any transcript? | 15:49 |
| @kanzure | (i am kidding) | 15:49 |
| chido | kanzure: no, you were dearly missed. and there were words of admiration uttered by the crowd upon me showing them the transcripts you did | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | haha | 15:54 |
| chido | I think there is a videorecording though, but since I gave my talk in my native tongue... I assume that would have been quite a challenge for you to transcribe | 15:55 |
| @kanzure | lots of "dklfasdlkasdflakdfjkal lkdfjladfkadkla akld;kadka;" basically | 15:55 |
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| @kanzure | hrmm | 16:58 |
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| @kanzure | http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science | 17:07 |
| @kanzure | "For whom does academic science as a career make sense? The picture so far is pretty bleak. The American academic scientist earns less than an airplane mechanic, has less job security than a drummer in a boy band, and works longer hours than a Bolivian silver miner." | 17:07 |
| ThomasEgi | sounds pretty sad | 17:08 |
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| Urchin | it's got to the point where grad students are forming unions, afaik | 17:09 |
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| brownies | they are? | 17:10 |
| Urchin | why is it so hard for some people to accept that computation causes entropy? | 17:11 |
| brownies | also, what does the author have against boy bands? | 17:11 |
| Urchin | yes, afaik | 17:11 |
| brownies | interesting. | 17:11 |
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| @kanzure | yeah i'd like to see the grad student unions | 17:17 |
| @kanzure | i haven't seen those before. i know there are 'graduate student associations' but they are never unions (they are just "how to interface with the dean" or something) | 17:17 |
| brownies | don't they just... throw parties? what does a student association do, anyway? | 17:19 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: so i know that page is heavily biased towards academic scientists, but i'm still curious how "scientists getting paid more" might come about | 17:28 |
| @kanzure | there's not really too much competition between pharma companies to hire people because they all have the same base set of skills (mostly) | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | and if they need something specific, they just buy the patent and the lab that was associated with it | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | (well, they don't buy the lab, they buy the company that was spun out of the lab) | 17:29 |
| * atomicfawkes checks gilead stock | 17:30 | |
| @yashgaroth | nah occasionally they'll buy the lab, they just fire everyone | 17:32 |
| chevbird_ | Haha | 17:32 |
| brownies | heh, article does make some good points | 17:33 |
| brownies | what about option 3: buy the patent, hire some underpaid college grads who have proven they can add two numbers together, and foot the bill to train them yourself | 17:33 |
| ParahSailin_ | grad students unionizing? | 17:34 |
| brownies | kanzure: in any case, you've caught me at a relatively pessimistic time as far as my viewpoint on all this | 17:34 |
| brownies | the other day, i came to accept that even *educating* everyone to a reasonable level of scientific competence has never had a viable business model behind it | 17:35 |
| brownies | kanzure: so for ideas on how to actually increase the economic value of the *output* of that economically unsustainable system... well, that seems rather ambitious. | 17:36 |
| brownies | (i am open to... in fact i would love refutation on... my pessimism here) | 17:36 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: or changing the economic output of these research-capable individuals | 18:40 |
| @kanzure | i'm not suggesting that research should be bent to meet company goals | 18:40 |
| @kanzure | but rather that the same set of skills can be repurposed for other tasks | 18:40 |
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| @kanzure | http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg814/scaled.php?tn=0&server=814&filename=wibwj.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640 | 19:16 |
| @kanzure | it's a little weird seeing smari mccarthy next to a picture of tom cruise in the same magazine | 19:16 |
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| brownies | kanzure: tasks such as what? | 19:21 |
| brownies | part of the problem here, btw, is that "research" unfortunately encompasses "slightly-skilled manual labor" which realistically should all be done by robots within the next 5-10 years | 19:22 |
| @kanzure | you mean "should have been done by robots 15 years ago" | 19:24 |
| @kanzure | well i guess if you have bunches of robots the task of researchers then becomes more like programming | 19:24 |
| @yashgaroth | actually that'd be a great way to get scientists to unionize | 19:24 |
| @kanzure | what? automation envy? | 19:25 |
| @yashgaroth | fear of the industry becoming automated | 19:25 |
| @kanzure | no we want the industry automated | 19:25 |
| @kanzure | ... don't we? | 19:25 |
| @yashgaroth | and you'll get that scientist union as well, it's win/win | 19:25 |
| @yashgaroth | shit there's few enough good scientists as it is, the number who know some programming is even less...I'll be practically guaranteed employment | 19:26 |
| ParahSailin_ | as long as patents keep the cost of the equipment up, your labor market for science is gonna be out of whack | 19:27 |
| brownies | good point. now that we're dramatically inflating the value of a BS by giving one to approximately everyone, it's safe to assume that PhDs will drop in value as well? | 19:27 |
| @yashgaroth | there's been a huge increase in bio PhDs compared to any other field | 19:27 |
| ParahSailin_ | and as long as nih is the biggest source of money | 19:28 |
| @kanzure | phds have always varied wildly.. "interview 100 people and assemble some graphs" gets you a phd sometimes, but not always | 19:28 |
| @kanzure | so i dunno if you can claim that more people getting phds means less quality or something | 19:28 |
| @kanzure | if anything it just means that your curves will have more datapoints or something | 19:29 |
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| @yashgaroth | I'm not saying that, just that it's becoming more standard for the industry to have a phd/postdoc | 19:29 |
| @kanzure | yeah, because they have 100's of thousands of people to hire from and not that many jobs | 19:29 |
| @yashgaroth | 20 years ago you could eventually become a VP with just a BS, now it's pretty well impossible | 19:29 |
| @kanzure | i mean, if the minimum profitable company size that can hire phds like crazy is the size of merck, you're kinda screwed on the employment side ;) | 19:30 |
| @kanzure | so, experiment/project design is already "like" "programming" | 19:30 |
| @kanzure | you design your workflows and then put material through the pipeline and look at the results | 19:31 |
| @kanzure | except.. you also do lots of manual labor in between and sometimes forget the big picture | 19:31 |
| @kanzure | perhaps you were saying (about the programming comment above) that these guys are bad at project design, which i could believe | 19:31 |
| @yashgaroth | me, I just meant computer expertise in general...but yes often scientists are bad at project design as well | 19:32 |
| @kanzure | "we'll fly to the amazon, collect some samples, centrifuge randomly and run gels until we find something that works, then we'll do freeze fracture crystallography and pray we see something" (hrm i guess this isn't an entirely bad project design) | 19:33 |
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| @kanzure | i definitely think that researchers could be told "make a research plan to defeat alzheimers" and you could get interesting results | 19:34 |
| @kanzure | this is what e.g. the myelin repair foundation does (although, they hired people to write that roadmap for them, and then got academic labs to sign on for different parts) | 19:35 |
| @yashgaroth | that's how it usually goes, though normally it's "find an antibody that will bind to X target with >Y affinity, you have one year" | 19:36 |
| @yashgaroth | a plan for defeating alzheimers is 'give me 100 billion dollars' | 19:37 |
| @kanzure | pfft not quite. | 19:37 |
| @yashgaroth | ok 50 billion, final offer | 19:37 |
| @kanzure | i think they are operating with $20-$25M | 19:37 |
| @kanzure | 2~ | 19:38 |
| @kanzure | http://www.myelinrepair.org/ | 19:38 |
| @kanzure | "Your gift today will help us reach several myelin repair Phase I Clinical Trials by 2014 and a myelin repair drug to reach patients by 2019." hmm.. | 19:38 |
| @kanzure | http://www.myelinrepair.org/research_model/ | 19:38 |
| @kanzure | "Our accomplishments to date include: Publication of more than 100 scientific articles and reviews in peer-reviewed journals" wtf | 19:39 |
| @kanzure | "More than $45 million raised to support potential myelin repair" | 19:39 |
| @yashgaroth | how does "addressing every phase in the drug discovery process" "shorten[ing] the time to patient treatments" | 19:40 |
| @kanzure | haha | 19:40 |
| @kanzure | yes so they are obviously a bit cocky | 19:40 |
| @kanzure | their "novel idea" is "have someone steering the ship" | 19:40 |
| @yashgaroth | publishing a hundred papers also seems to go against fast development | 19:40 |
| @kanzure | i think the academic labs are incentivized to do it based on the work they have done with this org | 19:41 |
| @kanzure | they may or may not be pressuring for that | 19:41 |
| @kanzure | anyway, it's obvious that there are many improvements that could be made to their process, but my point in bringing them up is that it's an alternative way of putting researchers to work | 19:41 |
| @kanzure | SENS is another example, although aging is difficult to measure in the first place | 19:42 |
| @yashgaroth | oh definitely, even with all the posturing it'll probably work better than the traditional models | 19:42 |
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| ParahSailin_ | i wonder what sens is doing | 19:45 |
| ParahSailin_ | did you see any of those guys in the bay area when you were there? | 19:45 |
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| brownies | how can a scientist not know how to design an experiment? | 20:03 |
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| @yashgaroth | an experiment is one thing, a whole project is another | 20:04 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: there are lab researchers who have job descriptions that are effectively "mix these things together every day to make gels for the older students" | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | "god damn it bryan stop using the good mix" | 20:56 |
| brownies | so they literally do the same thing as my blender | 20:57 |
| brownies | but they cost $30,000 per year instead of $500 | 20:58 |
| brownies | i'm just kidding, i don't own a blender. i use a 50cent fork to mash things into a bowl. | 20:58 |
| brownies | kanzure: why do they... have jobs... | 20:58 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: "because i always wanted to do research" | 21:51 |
| brownies | kanzure: no, i mean, why did their employer think paying them to do the job of a blender was a good idea | 21:59 |
| brownies | as opposed to buying a blender, which would be 1000x more cost-effective | 22:01 |
| brownies | or, you know, a Science Blender, which is probably 10x the price, but would still be 100x more cost-effective | 22:01 |
| @kanzure | because an undergrad is smarter than a blender? | 22:02 |
| * kanzure isn't so sure about this statement | 22:02 | |
| JayDugger | Because their employer had $30,000 in the budget which they would later lose if they didn't spend it on something. Justifying one manual blender (undergrad) takes less effort than justifying sixty automatic blenders. | 22:43 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jul 01 00:00:55 2012 | ||
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