| --- Log opened Sun Jul 29 00:00:22 2012 | ||
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| jrayhawk | well, we are particularly bad at making it inviting | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | should i offer money | 00:09 |
| jrayhawk | you might redirect http://diyhpl.us/ to http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ and point the "register to edit here" link to the actual newuser page rather than just the piny-commands page | 00:13 |
| jrayhawk | i should make some improvements to the ikiwiki page template to present more options in a more intuitive and concise manner | 00:14 |
| jrayhawk | i guess i should talk to joey about that | 00:15 |
| jrayhawk | some of that work should go upstream | 00:15 |
| kanzure | http://ikiwiki.info/plugins/contrib/mediawiki/ | 00:15 |
| kanzure | i sort of doubt it's the markup style though | 00:15 |
| jrayhawk | it's probably contributing. markdown is hard to learn and the corner cases are unintuitive | 00:16 |
| kanzure | i just resort to html, but that makes me a terrible person | 00:16 |
| jrayhawk | it's true | 00:16 |
| kanzure | maybe i should do a mediawiki css file | 00:16 |
| jrayhawk | http://ikiwiki.info/css_market/ has some less awful ones; you can copy them into a test wiki as 'local.css' | 00:17 |
| kanzure | no my thesis is that it's exactly the default mediawiki layout that these assholes want | 00:17 |
| kanzure | oh i mean monobook | 00:19 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Monobook.css | 00:21 |
| jrayhawk | https://antportal.com/wiki/ is rather lovely | 00:21 |
| kanzure | monobook isn't pretty; i don't think pretty is the goal | 00:21 |
| kanzure | do you know where or which hooks i should go poke at if i want to pretend to do work? | 00:22 |
| jrayhawk | well, css, at least, you can add per-repo as local.css | 00:24 |
| jrayhawk | if you want to do css globally, then we'd need to add an underlay, which isn't a bad idea | 00:24 |
| jrayhawk | if you want to change the page template, I... don't remember how easy I made that. | 00:24 |
| jrayhawk | I'll go look. | 00:24 |
| jrayhawk | ah, whatever ikiwiki can't find in /srv/templates it'll look for in /usr/share/ikiwiki/templates | 00:26 |
| jrayhawk | i suspect the antportal css would be most of the payoff with none of the actual work | 00:30 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: hi | 00:33 |
| jrayhawk | in that the page will then have a degree of intentionality | 00:34 |
| jrayhawk | they should try to register transhumani.sm | 00:36 |
| jrayhawk | if the sm authority asks, transhumani is obviously a legitimate organization deserving of a .sm name; they have a website and everything! | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | why not just transhumanism.com? | 00:42 |
| nmz787 | or .org | 00:42 |
| nmz787 | does having sm have any DNS advantage? | 00:43 |
| jrayhawk | it's just a cute abuse of the namespace | 00:43 |
| jrayhawk | hmm. 80-100 euros. not fun. | 00:44 |
| nmz787 | what's the most compact compression algorithm for zipping stuff? | 00:46 |
| nmz787 | specifically i want to zip up some videos that I'm not watching | 00:47 |
| jrayhawk | whatever you can get a grad student to write | 00:47 |
| jrayhawk | more helpfully, 7z uses modern lzma | 00:48 |
| kanzure | nmz787: transhumanism.org is owned by a pacifist millionaire | 00:48 |
| jrayhawk | if you have posix, the 'lzma' suite will do stream compression if you don't want a container | 00:49 |
| kanzure | who is against handing over the domain name | 00:49 |
| nmz787 | who is it? | 00:49 |
| kanzure | david pearce | 00:50 |
| kanzure | the "stop eating humans" person, pfft | 00:50 |
| nmz787 | this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(philosopher) | 00:51 |
| nmz787 | ? | 00:51 |
| kanzure | this one http://www.knightsbridge.net/ | 00:51 |
| jrayhawk | transhumanism.net appears to be owned by bostrom | 00:52 |
| kanzure | transhumanism.org and 1000s of others are david pearce | 00:52 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/david-pearce-domains.url.txt | 00:52 |
| nmz787 | transhumanism.org redirects to http://humanityplus.org/ | 00:54 |
| kanzure | yeah, they convinced him to do a redirect | 00:54 |
| nmz787 | why are these guys not one in the same as us.? | 00:54 |
| kanzure | humanity+ has a history of being retarded and lame | 00:54 |
| nmz787 | rather, why aren't they sponsoring us? | 00:55 |
| kanzure | i tried to work from the inside (i was "director of r&d") but it just spiraled outo f control | 00:55 |
| kanzure | *out of control | 00:55 |
| kanzure | well because they no have no plan, skills or money | 00:55 |
| kanzure | also they are just four to six people | 00:56 |
| jrayhawk | looks like at their highest levels of compression, bzip2 will typically edge out lzma, | 00:56 |
| kanzure | and all six of them are trying to run the same wordpress website, except none of them can figure out how to use wordpress | 00:56 |
| jrayhawk | but highest compression is kinda slow | 00:56 |
| nmz787 | to 7z i'm getting 1.1mb/s | 00:59 |
| nmz787 | geez, maybe i don't wanna compress these videos | 00:59 |
| nmz787 | 93% compression | 00:59 |
| brownies | kanzure: that seems like an obstacle to using wordpress | 01:01 |
| kanzure | brownies: it's worse than i've described it | 01:01 |
| kanzure | infinitely worse | 01:01 |
| kanzure | they are at the butt-end of technology; not the part they think they are at. | 01:02 |
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| brownies | heh | 01:06 |
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| nmz787 | looks like they have $ | 01:14 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: they don't have $5 | 04:22 |
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| kanzure | http://surveys.peerproduction.net/2012/07/mapping-hackers-diy-community-survey-2012-results/6/ | 04:35 |
| kanzure | haha only 9 respondents to that crap | 04:35 |
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| delinquentme | OH MI GAW | 08:55 |
| delinquentme | WANT cookies | 08:55 |
| delinquentme | but im eating lettuce | 08:55 |
| delinquentme | :D | 08:55 |
| kanzure | um. | 09:02 |
| chris_99 | anyone coded a PID before? | 09:05 |
| kanzure | i haven't, but i would be surprised if ThomasEgi or fenn haven't | 09:09 |
| ThomasEgi | like a PID controller? | 09:09 |
| chris_99 | yeah a PID controller | 09:10 |
| ThomasEgi | haven't coded one. but the mathematical implementation in code is not too much of a problem. | 09:20 |
| ThomasEgi | getting the math itself right is a lot more tricky than the integration part | 09:20 |
| chris_99 | i'm wondering about the tuning part specificly | 09:21 |
| chris_99 | guess i'll need to find some tuning algs. | 09:21 |
| chris_99 | hmm, i'll try implementing in Mathematica first, and take it from there | 09:24 |
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| ThomasEgi | tuning as in stability, the time it takes to respond, overshot etc? | 09:31 |
| chris_99 | yup, i've only briefly looked at one of the equations and it looks like theres a few parameters to tweak | 09:33 |
| ThomasEgi | depends a lot on your system | 09:43 |
| ThomasEgi | what do you need the PID controller for if i may ask* | 09:43 |
| ThomasEgi | ? | 09:43 |
| kanzure | http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/theprometheancell/diybio_placenta_stem_cells_for | 09:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.diybio.eu/regulatory-affairs/ | 09:48 |
| chris_99 | i'm going to be using it for controlling a peltier hopefully | 09:48 |
| ThomasEgi | wouldn't a 2point controller or a P-controller be totaly sufficent for that task? | 09:49 |
| chris_99 | 2 point controller? | 09:50 |
| ThomasEgi | pretty much is an if/else. if too hot, cool , else do nothin | 09:50 |
| ThomasEgi | they are very easy to build. and in many cases they are doing a good job | 09:51 |
| chris_99 | ah i understand you now, yeah theres no reason i couldn't use something like that. From what i understand though, the PID adjusts based on a number of previous readings | 09:53 |
| chris_99 | making it more accurate | 09:53 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. PID is used when speed and accuracy matter most. | 09:53 |
| ThomasEgi | but it requires to know your system parameters very well in order to make it work at all. | 09:54 |
| ThomasEgi | and you need to carefully design the PID to not produce an unstable system | 09:54 |
| ThomasEgi | P-controllers are probably more what you are looking for. they are easy, and still reasonably accurate | 09:55 |
| chris_99 | its going to be used for heating 1l of water/glycerine mix, so it's temperature isn't going to fluctuate too much | 09:58 |
| ThomasEgi | should be no problem. | 09:59 |
| ThomasEgi | if the temperature shouldn't change much. i'd recommend a P controller over a 2 point one. | 09:59 |
| ThomasEgi | but 1l of water is a lot. and a peltien will probably need ages to change temperature anyway. | 10:00 |
| chris_99 | this is a 400W peltier | 10:01 |
| chris_99 | possibly using multiple ones | 10:01 |
| ThomasEgi | whupsie. okay. that's.. a bit more than i expected | 10:04 |
| kanzure | ughhh http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TernarySqlAlchemy | 10:14 |
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| delinquentme | HEYYyy do any of you guys know if there is a central place to search for science-hack type things? | 11:22 |
| delinquentme | I had asked in here yesterday about " what does a DVD sans media layer do ? " | 11:22 |
| delinquentme | and it turns out its a really cheap / small prism | 11:23 |
| brownies | ...wikipedia...? | 11:23 |
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| jrayhawk | The maker communities might be the closest | 11:23 |
| delinquentme | yeahh but wikipedia isnt exactly like a repo of what is a good source of mass | 11:23 |
| delinquentme | its more " What is mass " and say ... equations associated with it | 11:23 |
| delinquentme | yeah maker communities i could see that | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | but like if there are people who are hacking together different machines ... it would be awesome to have a website that would have tons of resources for cheap DIY workarounds | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | household items with substantial density | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | bricks | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | water maybe | 11:24 |
| yashgaroth | david pearce is a millionaire?! | 11:27 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: nah i'm just making things up | 11:28 |
| kanzure | i don't know what his financial status is | 11:28 |
| yashgaroth | aww damn | 11:29 |
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| delinquentme | sooooooo | 13:20 |
| delinquentme | what about an arxiv.org for biology / chemistry | 13:21 |
| yashgaroth | that's what plos is | 13:25 |
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| delinquentme | yashgaroth, is it though? | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | its certainly not at that capacity | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | and I think you've got to pay to submit it | 13:27 |
| yashgaroth | yes, because arxiv papers are just people writing equations, and not conducting expensive lab research | 13:28 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: that doesn't explain the high energy particle experimentalists :P | 13:34 |
| kanzure | the reality is that you can just upload your paper wherever | 13:35 |
| kanzure | arxiv is a red herring | 13:35 |
| yashgaroth | nothing explains high energy particle physics | 13:35 |
| chris_99 | arxiv is peer reviewed right? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | arxiv is not peer reviewed | 13:36 |
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| chris_99 | ah | 13:37 |
| ParahSailin | arxiv is the platform for peer review | 13:40 |
| ParahSailin | you look at a paper, you are reviewing it | 13:40 |
| ParahSailin | is *a platform | 13:41 |
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| chris_99 | does it support feedback though | 13:41 |
| chris_99 | so a paper could be flagged as shit | 13:41 |
| kanzure | i think there's some sysadmin you can email if you find something spammy | 13:41 |
| ParahSailin | i think it supports submission of a paper calling another paper shit | 13:42 |
| kanzure | or there might be one person who makes sure the upload is an actual paper and not, e.g., goatse | 13:42 |
| chris_99 | hmm, might be better if they just let people comment on it | 13:42 |
| kanzure | nope | 13:42 |
| kanzure | arxiv is terribly underfunded | 13:42 |
| kanzure | it's like two guys in a department that doesn't understand arxiv | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | is Gcal broken for everyone? | 13:44 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, correct me if im wrong here but.... | 13:45 |
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| delinquentme | isnt that like a SUUUPER simple web app with alot of bandwidth? | 13:45 |
| kanzure | the web technology has nothing to do with it | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | and what do you mean ' red herring ' | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | a fluke? | 13:46 |
| kanzure | it's maybe 0.5% of the problem | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | explain | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | no a distraction! | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | O_o | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | idk about this. | 13:46 |
| kanzure | are you okay? | 13:46 |
| kanzure | 13:35 < kanzure> the reality is that you can just upload your paper wherever | 13:47 |
| kanzure | that's all i meant. this is not hard to understand. | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | whats the secret sauce ? | 13:47 |
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| delinquentme | that its hosted by cornell? | 13:47 |
| kanzure | its secret sauce was being there first | 13:48 |
| ParahSailin | do we pronounce it arkziv or arkhiv | 13:48 |
| kanzure | arkziv | 13:49 |
| ParahSailin | is the x an x or a khi | 13:49 |
| kanzure | but they probably want you to pronounce it arkhiv, which is bullshit | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | chi | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 13:49 |
| ParahSailin | do you say lateks or latekh | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | its pronounced Archive | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | i've heard both | 13:50 |
| kanzure | if they wanted it to be pronounced "archive" they would have called it "archive" | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | IDK | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, its a greek throwback | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | trust me its archive | 13:50 |
| kanzure | it's bullshit that's what it is | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | chi = x | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | lol | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | its academics being clevar | 13:50 |
| kanzure | a-r-x-i-v, it doesn't get the honor of being pronounced in their dumb ways | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | do you say arEXiv | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | lol i should start doing that | 13:50 |
| kanzure | i say a-r-x-iv | 13:50 |
| kanzure | i-v | 13:51 |
| delinquentme | are we going on strike? | 13:51 |
| kanzure | yes | 13:51 |
| delinquentme | ill bring cheeseburgers | 13:52 |
| ParahSailin | how do you pronounce TeX? | 13:53 |
| bkero | tech | 13:54 |
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| kanzure | text. | 13:54 |
| yashgaroth | "pronounced /ˈleɪtɛk/, /ˈleɪtɛx/, /ˈlɑːtɛx/, or /ˈlɑːtɛk/" eurgh | 13:55 |
| brownies | tek | 13:56 |
| ParahSailin | it doesnt list /leiteks/ at all? | 13:57 |
| yashgaroth | pretty sure x in IPA covers ks, but I'm not linguologist | 13:57 |
| ParahSailin | no x in ipa is the kh sound | 13:58 |
| ParahSailin | like you'd have in german ich | 13:58 |
| yashgaroth | well shit I just pronounce it like the rubber material | 13:58 |
| ParahSailin | (well certain dialects of krautish) | 13:58 |
| kanzure | let's try an experiment with arxiv | 14:00 |
| kanzure | i'll make a scraper that takes the latest .tex files | 14:00 |
| kanzure | and then appends myself as a coauthor on papers with >100 authors | 14:00 |
| kanzure | and then resubmits the paper | 14:00 |
| kanzure | i should probably also add in some fake names | 14:02 |
| kanzure | i.b. hakkenshit and o. hai were ok names, but there should be more | 14:02 |
| yashgaroth | dr. rembrandt q. einstein | 14:02 |
| brownies | why would you do such a thing | 14:03 |
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| eudoxia | for the same reason he wrote that AI class signup script | 15:12 |
| eudoxia | lolz | 15:13 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: so if i use monobook.css on diyhpl.us/wiki would you start using that wiki? | 15:15 |
| eudoxia | hahahah, oh you | 15:15 |
| eudoxia | not really, no | 15:15 |
| kanzure | why nto? | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | I'm actually pretty happy with where our current wiki is going | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Main_Page | 15:16 |
| kanzure | i'm just really surprised that you wanted to create a separate wiki | 15:16 |
| kanzure | so i'm trying to understand | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | it's not perfect, but it's improving | 15:16 |
| kanzure | if it's not the stylesheet, then what is it? | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | not really sure. maybe it's the interface, or simply MediaWiki's popularity. in any case, this one already has more information than diyhpluswiki, so I don't see a point in switching to it | 15:17 |
| kanzure | i don't think that's a good reason. the goals are exactly the same. | 15:18 |
| kanzure | also, how is an interface not the same thing as a stylesheet.. | 15:18 |
| eudoxia | fair point | 15:19 |
| kanzure | i'm just trying to understand. fractured effort is a terrible problem in this community. | 15:19 |
| kanzure | so understanding it helps us not die. | 15:19 |
| eudoxia | is the markup for ikiwiki different? | 15:19 |
| kanzure | there is a different markup, but there's a plugin i haven't installed that uses mediawiki's syntax | 15:20 |
| kanzure | also, html is allowed anyway | 15:20 |
| eudoxia | raw html is definitely convenient | 15:20 |
| eudoxia | Steel is going to enable that one | 15:20 |
| kanzure | just don't write elaborate xss javascript attacks | 15:20 |
| eudoxia | like I could do that | 15:20 |
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| kanzure | so maybe you just like steel more? :P | 15:21 |
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| eudoxia | i like you all the same | 15:23 |
| eudoxia | but I like mediawiki more than both | 15:23 |
| kanzure | any reason why? | 15:23 |
| eudoxia | easier for me to use, comes with more out of the box functionality | 15:24 |
| eudoxia | everyone else seems to use it | 15:24 |
| kanzure | how is it easier specifically? | 15:24 |
| kanzure | btw i used to run tons of mediawiki instances, so feel free to actually tell me | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | i know | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | http://web.archive.org/web/20080808080901/http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | I actually sort of liked this one more than the current one | 15:25 |
| kanzure | yeah but also i had this random-ass reprap.org-wiki fork | 15:25 |
| kanzure | and kobic's 10,000-wiki botnet thing.. it was weird. | 15:26 |
| eudoxia | this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOBIC thing? | 15:26 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:26 |
| kanzure | "It has around 50 bioinformatists with various web sites" haha more like "an infinite never-ending sea of wikis" | 15:27 |
| eudoxia | haha | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biophilosophy.org/ | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biosophy.org/index.php/Main_Page | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biologism.org/ | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biojustice.org/ | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biolicense.org/ | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biosapiens.org/ | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://biopedia.org/ | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | biosophy seems the closest to the central site | 15:29 |
| eudoxia | it's sort of like the Terasem thing, where there are so many sites and subsidiaries you can't really tell whether it's legit or a really complicated criminal scheme | 15:29 |
| kanzure | i don't even remember what the central one is | 15:29 |
| eudoxia | it's the only one of the two with a logo | 15:30 |
| eudoxia | ignore the 'only'' | 15:30 |
| kanzure | it used to be biowebhost.kr | 15:32 |
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| delinquentme | what was the verdict on making arxiv for bio | 16:42 |
| delinquentme | biochem ? | 16:42 |
| yashgaroth | nay | 16:42 |
| kanzure | you mean an ftp server? | 16:45 |
| delinquentme | the services of Arxiv.org are basically that | 16:46 |
| delinquentme | and would be wildly simple to build out | 16:46 |
| delinquentme | trivial almost | 16:46 |
| delinquentme | the other thing I was wondering is about submitting to journals | 16:47 |
| delinquentme | is there value in making it easy to submit to a ton of open source journals? | 16:47 |
| kanzure | no, because most of them insist you only submit to one journal | 16:48 |
| Urchin | http://www.biotorrents.net/browse.php | 16:59 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, even the open ones? | 18:15 |
| delinquentme | thats bizarre | 18:15 |
| delinquentme | IMO | 18:15 |
| kanzure | it's very standard.. what are you basing "bizarre" on | 18:22 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, are they not open journals? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | "open access" just means "You pay us to slap a creative commons license on it for you" | 18:28 |
| delinquentme | bin. | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | go. | 18:53 |
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| kanzure | so the .sm tld is going for $170/year? or is this landing page just a scam | 19:54 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: so i only need https://antportal.com/wiki/local.css ? | 20:12 |
| ParahSailin | somalia? | 20:27 |
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| kanzure | hello hasp | 20:28 |
| Hasp | Hello | 20:28 |
| ParahSailin | oh sammarino | 20:28 |
| ParahSailin | id rather have somali tld | 20:28 |
| Hasp | How is everyone? | 20:30 |
| kanzure | i'm ok. pushing bytes around. | 20:30 |
| Hasp | Bit-flipping is fun lol | 20:31 |
| Hasp | Bio project? | 20:31 |
| kanzure | no just some sqlalchemy | 20:33 |
| Hasp | fun stuff | 20:35 |
| kanzure | Hasp: what brings you here? | 20:35 |
| ParahSailin | does boston have a "silicon *" nickname? | 20:37 |
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| ParahSailin | or i guess they can get by without hitching onto silicon valley's fame | 20:37 |
| Hasp | Transhumanism/bio fan | 20:40 |
| kanzure | Hasp: have you been to the boston open source science lab (bosslab)? | 20:41 |
| Hasp | Can't say that I have | 20:41 |
| kanzure | it's somewhere in davis square | 20:41 |
| Hasp | I'm pretty close to Davis square haha | 20:41 |
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| kanzure | Hasp: it's across from the pizza place | 20:42 |
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| kanzure | Hasp: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/avery-louie-bosslab.txt | 20:43 |
| Hasp | Just a general area for people to run experiments? That's frigging awesome | 20:45 |
| kanzure | avery also does training if you give him monies or foods | 20:46 |
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| Hasp | Sweet. I'm gonna have to visit sometime | 20:47 |
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| jmil | delinquentme: yes the orbital shaker is my design | 21:00 |
| jmil | delinquentme: did u have a question about it? | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | Someone made a post on how it could be improved. Its not one of your active-development projects is it? | 21:01 |
| delinquentme | Basically I'm scatter brained on OS hardware and shakers are stupid simple | 21:01 |
| jmil | i use it all the time. got a link for the post you mention? | 21:01 |
| delinquentme | http://labrigger.com/blog/2010/12/20/open-source-orbital-shaker/ | 21:02 |
| jmil | kanzure: http://www.philly.com/blood and see accompanying article | 21:02 |
| delinquentme | haha and yeah i did some digging around on that printer jmil | 21:03 |
| delinquentme | the extruder on your thingverse kicked me off | 21:04 |
| jmil | sweet | 21:04 |
| jmil | tell me | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | tell you what? | 21:04 |
| jmil | you did some digging around… what did you find? | 21:04 |
| jmil | sorry i'm not understanding your text | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | Oh that the crazyness about the modded reprap and vasculiture was you | 21:05 |
| jmil | oh cool | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | or you were involved w it | 21:05 |
| jmil | it's all one project actually | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | yeah dude i kinda bugged out | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | did you check out that webpage? | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | the GUI mention | 21:06 |
| jmil | i printed the vasculature, then we needed a way to perfuse the vasculature. so i also developed the orbital shaker to get fluid pulsing through many gels at the same time | 21:06 |
| jmil | GUI mention? | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | in the labrigger link above | 21:06 |
| jmil | oh make an interface for it you mean | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | I think thats some 3rd party making suggestions as to how it might be improved | 21:06 |
| jmil | did you do the post? | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | nah but it got me thinking | 21:06 |
| jmil | oh cool | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | how are the tube holding up? | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | tubes** | 21:07 |
| jmil | the tubes are stellar | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | like the mention of a more "mechanical" way of doing it is cool but if they're holding up shit thats all you need | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | whats the current control interface? | 21:07 |
| jmil | the problem is the incubator is a humidified environment (around 90%) and body temp (98º). so i'm actually stunned the stepper motors havent rusted yet | 21:07 |
| jmil | sorry i don't understand what you mean: "if they're holding up shit thats all you need" | 21:08 |
| jmil | the current control interface is a single .pde arduino file where i program each motor and hit upload. it's only 100 lines or so | 21:08 |
| jmil | http://www.thingiverse.com/download:15463 | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | jmil, " if they work ... thats all that matters " | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | would there be any advantages to scaling them out? | 21:10 |
| jmil | oh haha true | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | say more shakers? smaller and more numerous shakers? | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | different frequencies? | 21:10 |
| jmil | ya i really want a single big plate that i can put many 6-well plates on to shake at once | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | so 1) bigger stepper and heftier tubes? | 21:11 |
| jmil | it turns out that reproducibility across a large number of gels is more important than getting many single plates going at different frequencies | 21:11 |
| jmil | delinquentme: this is what inspired my shaker… and i need to reverse engineer a big one now: | 21:12 |
| jmil | http://www.2spi.com/catalog/misc_lab/belly-dancer-shaker.shtml | 21:12 |
| jmil | belly dancer sits level though. mine did true orbital shaking | 21:12 |
| delinquentme | the gels being the tissue chunks you were trying to dissolve the sugar from within | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | which is better? | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | depends on application? | 21:13 |
| jmil | which is better… between what and what? | 21:13 |
| jmil | oh orbital shaking is better i think | 21:13 |
| jmil | gets more perfusion through the gels | 21:14 |
| jmil | haven't quantified it. just a gut feeling | 21:14 |
| delinquentme | true orbital vrs whatever the "belly dancer" does | 21:14 |
| jmil | true orbital is better | 21:14 |
| delinquentme | well I guess anything with greater variance in movement would probably dissolve quicker | 21:15 |
| jmil | makes a stronger fluid "wave" going around a circular well in a plastic plate. that gets more nutrients into the gel | 21:15 |
| jmil | oh no the sugar dissolves in about 10 min. the better movement is to get oxygen rich liquid into the vascular network | 21:15 |
| delinquentme | would it help to be able to adjust the oscilation radius? | 21:15 |
| jmil | sure | 21:16 |
| jmil | you mean to go from flat rotation to orbital shaking? | 21:16 |
| jmil | that would be awesome | 21:16 |
| jmil | one shaker to do it all | 21:16 |
| jmil | as you can see in the original design, the offset from center is fixed with the printed part sitting on a screw: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5045 | 21:16 |
| jmil | but if you had it adjustable, that would be nice | 21:16 |
| delinquentme | orbital round im guessing has a Y axis movement? | 21:16 |
| jmil | orbital shaking is like a spinning top. it rotates around the center axis… can't remember if that's called pitch or yaw or what | 21:17 |
| delinquentme | have you had anyone approach you about purchasing one? | 21:17 |
| jmil | nope. it's not really a "product" yet | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | Hmmm ... what would flat rotation be then? | 21:18 |
| jmil | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFgDQ2s9vM | 21:18 |
| jmil | vs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d4_SQBTFjg | 21:19 |
| jmil | delinquentme: u can build things like these? | 21:20 |
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| delinquentme_ | allright some reason my OS just got slow | 21:23 |
| delinquentme_ | Ok so one stays in a fixed plane while the true orbital does not | 21:24 |
| jmil | ya that's it | 21:25 |
| delinquentme_ | i really like this hardware | 21:25 |
| delinquentme_ | I dont suppose youve got plans for it? | 21:25 |
| jmil | for high precision flow we connect a pump to a single inlet in one gel and get precise flow through it. but the challenge is plumbing through dozens of gels at once. so when we scale up we just use the orbital shaker | 21:26 |
| jmil | u don't suppose i have plans for what? | 21:26 |
| delinquentme_ | the shaker | 21:27 |
| delinquentme_ | oh wait | 21:27 |
| delinquentme_ | so then you're going to need to build more | 21:27 |
| delinquentme_ | Though ... I guess everyone needs shakers | 21:28 |
| delinquentme_ | ( gaging market ) | 21:28 |
| delinquentme_ | http://www.foundrygroup.com/wp/2012/07/our-investment-in-modular-robotics/ | 21:28 |
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| delinquentme_ | So jmil what do you want to do with the shaker? Do you just build more ... or do you want to add to it? | 21:31 |
| delinquentme_ | feature wise | 21:31 |
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| jmil | what about foundry group now? | 21:34 |
| jmil | i want a bigger shaker. needs to hold around 16 plates. that will allow us to do better quantitative biology with the vascular gels i am making | 21:35 |
| delinquentme_ | someone made a 3 mil investment in them | 21:38 |
| delinquentme_ | so it looks like the current version all the plates are shaken individually | 21:38 |
| delinquentme_ | you're still wanting to go with that? | 21:39 |
| jmil | naw i want one big shaker for many plates. like 16 plates on one shaker | 21:40 |
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| delinquentme_ | now it seems that keeping that movement homogenous across all plates would be really hard then no? | 21:43 |
| delinquentme_ | plates on the outside would move more than those at the center ... esp in orbital movements | 21:44 |
| delinquentme_ | problem? | 21:44 |
| jmil | oh that is true. i would do flat shaking for lots of plates if you had the adjustable y-axis you mentioned | 21:44 |
| jmil | delinquentme_: you know how to build these things? | 21:45 |
| delinquentme_ | jmil, I cant see it being complex | 21:45 |
| jmil | well the current price for large orbital shakers, commercially, is around $800. surely the open source community can get that price down | 21:46 |
| delinquentme_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXyvtNrXLSk&feature=plcp | 21:46 |
| delinquentme_ | so like controlling seems that its the hardest part | 21:46 |
| delinquentme_ | and thats not really complex | 21:47 |
| delinquentme_ | and you're just manually uploading code to each arduino and then wiring up new steppers in your model? | 21:48 |
| delinquentme_ | What I've done in the past is use computers to control them ... like id *LOVE* to get a raspberry pi controlling one | 21:49 |
| delinquentme_ | pull up web page... tell it how long to run .. and go | 21:49 |
| kanzure | i don't think a web page is a good idea. how about just a daemon or script instead. | 21:50 |
| delinquentme_ | you could almost simplify it down to just a on off and a pot for frequency | 21:51 |
| delinquentme_ | nix almost | 21:51 |
| delinquentme_ | jmil, you dont happen to have funding for this do you? | 21:56 |
| jmil | we don't really have funding for this. | 21:57 |
| jmil | ya i have to connect to my laptop every time i want to change the code. flash new firmware on the arduino | 21:58 |
| delinquentme_ | well i guess there would be no conflicts w IP then ! | 21:59 |
| delinquentme_ | I mean I dont see connecting up to it to change the firmware an issue | 22:00 |
| delinquentme_ | it would be nice to be able to switch speed w/o uploading | 22:01 |
| jmil | definitely | 22:02 |
| jmil | i almost did that with the makerbot danger shield since i have one lying around. it has REALLY nice manual sliders and a 7 seg LED display. almost all you really need lol | 22:02 |
| delinquentme_ | actually thats totally overkill but yeah if you've got one | 22:05 |
| brownies | i'm tuning in late, but... you want to build something that literally shakes in a plane at a set frequency? | 22:11 |
| brownies | looking at your thingiverse posting... that's really cool. why not build more of these and sell 'em ? | 22:11 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, you got it. | 22:11 |
| delinquentme_ | ding ding | 22:11 |
| delinquentme_ | have a brownies | 22:11 |
| delinquentme_ | B] | 22:11 |
| brownies | i'm kind of a noob with biology equipment, heh | 22:11 |
| kanzure | probably because nobody wants to buy them? | 22:11 |
| brownies | then why do they sell for 15,000 ? | 22:11 |
| delinquentme_ | hahaha | 22:12 |
| brownies | oh, $1500. still solid. | 22:12 |
| delinquentme_ | because kanzure is pessimistic | 22:12 |
| kanzure | i'm not pessimistic. | 22:12 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, i think they'd sell | 22:12 |
| delinquentme_ | and I dont need to fucking market research the shit out of a billion companies | 22:12 |
| brownies | i'm easily excited by this sort of thing, tbh, because i like seeing low-cost hardware eat markets, and i have no idea about biology labs and demand levels, so i just assume infinite demand =P | 22:12 |
| kanzure | the grant lifecycle really favors high-cost equipment | 22:13 |
| brownies | btw how did you get it to not generate heat? what about... you know... entropy | 22:13 |
| delinquentme_ | jmil, whats the size of the plates? | 22:13 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, it does generate heat | 22:13 |
| delinquentme_ | it could probs be less w/o microstepping though | 22:13 |
| ParahSailin | favors high-cost equipment from low-risk (nobody ever got fired for buying from fischer) vendors | 22:13 |
| delinquentme_ | hahaha | 22:13 |
| brownies | "The orbital shaker fits inside a standard 37 ºC/5% CO2 cell incubator and puts out no heat" | 22:13 |
| ParahSailin | fisher* | 22:13 |
| brownies | ParahSailin: heh, nice. yeah, that's exactly it. | 22:14 |
| delinquentme_ | So I guess the question with low cost equipment is | 22:14 |
| jmil | i used overpowered motors that don't heat up when you give them enough current to shake the plates | 22:14 |
| jmil | 22:14 | |
| delinquentme_ | what can be purchased at the costs of like | 22:14 |
| delinquentme_ | petty cash | 22:14 |
| brownies | but since there are tons of labs that have issues with funding and grants and etc, surely there's demand? | 22:14 |
| jmil | brownies: that's what i'm gonna talk about at open hardware summit. we need more open source hardware in science. | 22:14 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, i think so | 22:14 |
| delinquentme_ | jmil, you speaking?? cool! | 22:14 |
| brownies | kanzure: y u so pessimistic? | 22:14 |
| jmil | kanzure: there's very little equipment you can buy on a research grant. it's almost all for disposables and salaries | 22:14 |
| ParahSailin | and "no grant ever got rejected for citing the price fisher quotes" | 22:14 |
| kanzure | brownies: i'm not pessimistic. i just said so. :| | 22:14 |
| kanzure | damn why don't you gugys believe me. | 22:15 |
| brownies | kanzure: oh. well, why don't you believe? | 22:15 |
| kanzure | what?? | 22:15 |
| jmil | kanzure: buying equipment on grants is very very very difficult | 22:15 |
| jmil | $10k or more, almost impossible | 22:15 |
| jmil | equipment grants themselves are not easy either | 22:15 |
| brownies | jmil: then where does equipment come from? | 22:15 |
| kanzure | jmil: then where does the $40k ultracentrifuge come from | 22:15 |
| jmil | tha'ts been my expeirence | 22:15 |
| brownies | university purchasing departments i guess? | 22:16 |
| jmil | startup funds | 22:16 |
| brownies | ...eh? | 22:16 |
| yashgaroth | 40k ultracentrifuges are shared by several labs or a floor | 22:16 |
| delinquentme_ | startup funds for the lab | 22:16 |
| jmil | when you start a lab you have to write down all the high end eqiupment you will EVER need. | 22:16 |
| kanzure | is this the nih "young career" award money thing? | 22:16 |
| jmil | the university invests the funds in you. and then you have to use that equipment forever | 22:16 |
| ParahSailin | the university will give you 500k as a one time lump sum | 22:16 |
| jmil | kanzure: no startup funds mean what ParahSailin said | 22:17 |
| ParahSailin | after that you're on your own for grants | 22:17 |
| jmil | yes | 22:17 |
| brownies | jmil: that seems... suboptimal. | 22:17 |
| delinquentme_ | so then what are the pricing parameter which need to be considered jmil | 22:17 |
| jmil | i agree | 22:17 |
| delinquentme_ | is it just make it cheap as shit | 22:17 |
| delinquentme_ | ? | 22:17 |
| jmil | "cheap as shit and don't burn the place down" | 22:17 |
| brownies | are you seriously suggesting that the most intelligent people in the world got together and devised a system that assumes equipment never breaks down or goes obsolete? | 22:17 |
| delinquentme_ | obvs ultracenterfuges aren't on the same level as these shakers | 22:17 |
| brownies | i'll believe it, but... damn. | 22:17 |
| kanzure | brownies: well sometimes labs hire a technician i think | 22:17 |
| kanzure | or there's service contracts on the high-price items | 22:17 |
| jmil | brownies: the cost structure just can't support it. postdocs make below minimum wage | 22:18 |
| jmil | there's almost no money for equipment | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, its a system which also includes financing and amortization on equip :D | 22:18 |
| brownies | jmil: are there certifications or something that you can get for your equipment? "we have our equipment tested by CertCo to confirm that this will not stop working tomorrow" | 22:18 |
| ParahSailin | brownies, i question the premise of "most intelligent people in the world" | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | so really I need to call up private companies | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | and be like | 22:18 |
| brownies | ParahSailin: well... approximately. | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | ORBITAL SHAKER | 22:18 |
| jmil | lol | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | what would you like to pay | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | but really private companies are where its at | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | Moneh | 22:18 |
| delinquentme_ | ( not the painter ) | 22:19 |
| brownies | kanzure, jmil: interesting | 22:19 |
| delinquentme_ | woulda been funnier had i spelled it correctly =/ | 22:19 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, i thought you were like biotech royalty? | 22:19 |
| delinquentme_ | ( for some reason ) | 22:19 |
| jmil | delinquentme_: http://summit.oshwa.org/sweet-science-3d-printed-sugar-templates-for-regenerative-medicine/ | 22:19 |
| delinquentme_ | SV biotech royalty | 22:19 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah jmil i just looked up the conference | 22:19 |
| delinquentme_ | I maybes should go | 22:19 |
| jmil | sweet | 22:19 |
| jmil | it will be fun. makerfaire is that weekend | 22:20 |
| jmil | all the reprap peeps will be there | 22:20 |
| brownies | delinquentme_: i worked at some... well-equipped... labs before i opted for the glamorous and poverty-stricken life of a startup founder | 22:20 |
| delinquentme_ | :D | 22:20 |
| delinquentme_ | hey man I | 22:20 |
| delinquentme_ | 'm sure you're doing good work | 22:20 |
| delinquentme_ | should get some UL shit on it | 22:21 |
| delinquentme_ | thats the fortune 500 street cred no? | 22:21 |
| jmil | lol | 22:21 |
| jmil | no money to pay someone to put a UL sticker on it | 22:21 |
| brownies | ah yeah, UL certification, that'd do it | 22:21 |
| jmil | the main reason i don't want to sell hardware is having to deal with angry customers. you can't educate everyone, and open source peeps don't have the funds to pay you for your time troubleshooting. so you end up supporting the community despite having bills to pay | 22:22 |
| kanzure | jmil: why are postdocs okay about working for less than minimum wage? | 22:23 |
| kanzure | alternatively, how skilled of a postdoc can i acquire for $100/hour? | 22:23 |
| jmil | kanzure: because of the love of the science | 22:23 |
| jmil | $100 / hour you can hire someone with 5-10+ yrs | 22:23 |
| delinquentme_ | jmil, im OK with charging for service constracts | 22:23 |
| jmil | postdoct | 22:23 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: you forgot the part where they have no money | 22:24 |
| jmil | kanzure: well at least that's what most postdocs think when they get started. money doesn't buy happiness, and all that jazz | 22:24 |
| delinquentme_ | then dont break it | 22:24 |
| delinquentme_ | and I dont see why making it simple is difficult | 22:25 |
| delinquentme_ | lolwat | 22:25 |
| delinquentme_ | jmil, you dont live in SV | 22:25 |
| jmil | postdocs don't strictly get paid hourly. they get paid a stipend. but if you work out the stipend per hour that a good postdoc will spend in the lab then it is around minimum wage or less | 22:25 |
| jmil | SV? | 22:25 |
| delinquentme_ | you nedz learn dis | 22:25 |
| delinquentme_ | silicon vallye | 22:25 |
| jmil | lol | 22:25 |
| delinquentme_ | valley** | 22:25 |
| kanzure | jmil: i was also wondering about how much i would have to pay to hire a novelty soviet scientist | 22:25 |
| kanzure | i think a few are still living | 22:25 |
| delinquentme_ | LOL | 22:26 |
| kanzure | it sounds surprisingly affordable.. | 22:26 |
| brownies | well, if you assume that the postdoc is "always working" then i guess it does come out pretty low... | 22:26 |
| jmil | kanzure: what are you hiring people for? | 22:26 |
| delinquentme_ | hes got to have the right sounding name too | 22:26 |
| brownies | also, doesn't the postdoc usually make stipend + teaching money + something else? fellowship? | 22:26 |
| kanzure | jmil: i have money for open source projects. i am sorta picky though. i am biased. | 22:26 |
| jmil | stipend is about it | 22:26 |
| jmil | brownies: ^^ | 22:26 |
| brownies | jmil: well, that's depressing. | 22:26 |
| delinquentme_ | if kanzure is paying you make him pay upfront | 22:26 |
| delinquentme_ | #SolidAdvice | 22:27 |
| kanzure | upfront is totally okay | 22:27 |
| jmil | kanzure: u mean we could write grants to you? or you are hiring local peeps to work on your open source ideas? | 22:27 |
| kanzure | jmil: uh, you could write grants, but i would prefer you don't write 10 pages before i speak with you | 22:27 |
| jmil | kanzure: is this through a foundation? | 22:27 |
| kanzure | no this is just me doing things? | 22:27 |
| jmil | i'm interested | 22:27 |
| jmil | very interested | 22:27 |
| kanzure | cool. | 22:28 |
| jmil | you are open to ideas from the community or you have speicifc projects you are funding | 22:28 |
| jmil | ? | 22:28 |
| kanzure | i am open to ideas, but again i am heavily biased towards open source hardware and biohacking projects and things.. | 22:29 |
| kanzure | i threw this together a while back that highlighted some minor areas: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html | 22:29 |
| brownies | are these numbers price goals, or $$ amounts available for funding? | 22:30 |
| kanzure | haha | 22:30 |
| kanzure | i knew someone would ask that | 22:30 |
| kanzure | it's sort of both? | 22:30 |
| brownies | heh. | 22:30 |
| kanzure | i have had a lot of peeps ask me for some rough estimates about projects that we /could/ get done, so i wanted to assemble some pricing information | 22:31 |
| brownies | a modern spectrophotometer costs $20K? damn. | 22:31 |
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| kanzure | brownies: that was nmz787's estimate | 22:32 |
| jmil | kanzure: i could work on #15 :D | 22:32 |
| kanzure | http://openspectrometer.com/ | 22:32 |
| kanzure | you were complaining about the video a while back | 22:32 |
| yashgaroth | our nanodrop was like 8k or something | 22:32 |
| kanzure | jmil: ah yeah, you were asking about raising $50k a while back, so i threw it in there :) | 22:33 |
| jmil | nice | 22:33 |
| jmil | any bites kanzure ? | 22:33 |
| delinquentme_ | oh and theres already an OS spectrometer | 22:33 |
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| kanzure | jmil: not on that one, no | 22:34 |
| delinquentme_ | http://publiclaboratory.org/wiki/spectral-workbench | 22:34 |
| delinquentme_ | web cam + DVD chunk and a black box | 22:35 |
| kanzure | also: i would like to point out that none of this makes me pessimistic. | 22:35 |
| kanzure | blah. | 22:35 |
| delinquentme_ | so jmil I'm guessing the arduino code is pretty simple? | 22:39 |
| jmil | for the sugar printer or the orbital shaker? | 22:39 |
| delinquentme_ | and like it just needs frequency and on / off.... | 22:39 |
| delinquentme_ | orbital shaker | 22:40 |
| jmil | oh the code is in the thingiverse post | 22:41 |
| jmil | it's like 100 lines of arduino code | 22:41 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: http://publiclaboratory.org/wiki/spectral-workbench | 23:37 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jul 30 00:00:23 2012 | ||
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