| --- Log opened Wed Sep 05 00:00:17 2012 | ||
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| archels | Of course, if you ask me, cryonics is nothing but the flabbergasting fantasy that a severed head | 03:04 |
|---|---|---|
| archels | frozen or vitrified in a misty metal dewar will one day rise from the dead with the help of | 03:04 |
| archels | programmable swarms of nanoscale magic machines that can make anything for nothing, including | 03:05 |
| archels | eternally young robot bodies with comic book sooper-powers, or that "info-souls" interred within | 03:05 |
| archels | decapitated hamburgerized remains will eventually be "uploaded" into cyberspatial heaven, either to | 03:05 |
| archels | wallow in nanobotic sexy-slavebotic treasure caves in the asteroid belt or online until the universe | 03:05 |
| archels | dies and all the Robot Cultists exit into adjacent universes to party on for all eternity as more or | 03:05 |
| archels | less infinitely techno-amplified variations of their most infantile ids, all under the ministrations | 03:05 |
| archels | of a history-ending post-biological perfectly-parental sooper-intelligent Robot God they think their | 03:05 |
| archels | friends are coding even as I write these words. | 03:05 |
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| Mariu | archels, well the revival process might change you and your personality when the simulations wich simulate in reverse the degradation patterns, fill in the information gaps | 03:09 |
| archels | Mariu: The above is not my opinion, it just made me laugh reading it. | 03:21 |
| Mariu | archels: got it xD | 03:21 |
| archels | Mariu: So what do you think on cryonic revival, bringing the frozen tissue back to life vs. uploading being the only way back to life? | 03:26 |
| Mariu | archels: I think that every moment of our lives might be a transition of information from one state to another, uploading is just a similar transition with an unusual displacement in space-time, and with the risk of creating another you. I don't know, about cryonics....we could explore that department and find out more about it. Same with uploading, also. | 03:30 |
| Mariu | it's just theories though :) | 03:31 |
| Mariu | the risk of creating another you, maybe it's not a risk ... I don't know | 03:32 |
| Mariu | we could also master how we change | 03:33 |
| Mariu | or not change, or change to how we need | 03:33 |
| archels | On a purely practical level though, I doubt it's worth the time, effort and money to investigate reviving frozen tissue. Best to focus on uploading technologies instead. | 03:35 |
| archels | But I think many in the cryonics department would disagree with me on this. | 03:36 |
| Mariu | sure, the more options, the better | 03:36 |
| archels | But we'd be losing the option of directly reviving the frozen tissue. | 03:37 |
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| Urchin | the original idea behind cryonics *is* to upload the frozen/vitrified people | 04:25 |
| Urchin | at least for current generation of cryopreserved | 04:26 |
| archels | not so sure about this, from what I've been reading on the New_Cryonet mailing list. | 04:32 |
| archels | But perhaps the subject of uploading is intentionally avoided, in an attempt not to sound /even more/ cookie. :) | 04:32 |
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| ThomasEgi | hm.. just out of curiosity.. wouldnt that require to map the entire neural system out? | 04:48 |
| Mariu | :) | 04:49 |
| ThomasEgi | which, to my knowledge, isn't really possible with nondestructive methods. so it would mean cutting and scanning of countless of slices. | 04:50 |
| ThomasEgi | anyone ever tried this on a small scale? like i don't know. a fruitfly or an ant? | 04:50 |
| ThomasEgi | using image processing to reconstruct the neuron networks and interconnections, then create a simulation based on that | 04:51 |
| archels | Yes, it would require destructive slicing and scanning of the complete brain. | 04:52 |
| ThomasEgi | and backbone | 04:53 |
| archels | This has been done, and is an active field of research. Right now we can do some pretty precise mapping (single dendritic spines, cellular organelles, etc.). | 04:53 |
| ThomasEgi | otherwise you'd have no propper feedback in your virtual body i guess | 04:53 |
| Mariu | hmm | 04:53 |
| ThomasEgi | archels, any complete simulation of a living creature? | 04:53 |
| archels | The shortcoming is (1) we can do this insanely precisely for very small tissue blocks, or (2) we can do it with a rather huge inter-slice gap (due to cutting) at a not-so-good precision. | 04:53 |
| archels | ThomasEgi: No. | 04:53 |
| ThomasEgi | so. the problem is to remove thin layer of the materal then? | 04:54 |
| archels | However, there's nothing stopping this in principle. The technology just needs to be improved. | 04:54 |
| archels | yes, mostly. | 04:54 |
| archels | The situation now is that you will get superb XY resolution, but terrible Z resolution due to the slicing. | 04:54 |
| ThomasEgi | hm... if the material could be made very solid. one could grind off and polish, instead of slicing | 04:55 |
| archels | Unless you do the whole thing in a vacuum chamber, where you can use ion beam milling. | 04:55 |
| ThomasEgi | which would allow extremly fine resolution | 04:55 |
| archels | That might be an option, yep. | 04:55 |
| ThomasEgi | how bout femto-second laser pulses? they can blast off material without burning the layers below | 04:55 |
| ThomasEgi | fairly commonly found in industries | 04:56 |
| archels | I'm guessing no one has ever tried this on tissue. | 04:56 |
| ThomasEgi | does freezing destruct the neuronal structure on bigger scale? | 04:57 |
| archels | Not sure, but presumably it leaves much of the ultrastructure intact, or people would have given up on it long ago. | 04:57 |
| archels | Plastination as opposed to cryogenics seems promising in this respect. | 04:58 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean.. i know for sure that , with a solid block of material, grinding and polisishing can be done at μm precision and better | 04:59 |
| archels | Then this might indeed be a very sensible approach. Not sure why I've never read about it before. | 05:01 |
| Urchin | well, vitrified brain is essentially glass | 05:02 |
| Urchin | besides, that's early theories on how it would be used back from '80s | 05:03 |
| archels | So why is everybody doing slicing now for reconstruction? | 05:04 |
| ThomasEgi | archels, the mirrors of the space teleskope hubble was polished in shape too. glass | 05:05 |
| ThomasEgi | and they polished with a precision of 1/800000 inch (stupid imperial unit but thats what they say) | 05:06 |
| ThomasEgi | bout 32nanometer | 05:08 |
| ThomasEgi | guess that should be good enough | 05:08 |
| ThomasEgi | at least worth to try out on something like a fruit fly where you don't spend 5 years of polishing^ | 05:08 |
| archels | hehe | 05:09 |
| archels | Polishing generates heat though, perhaps this is problematic with frozen tissue? | 05:09 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. that could be calculated, with enough cooling that should be possible? | 05:10 |
| ThomasEgi | is a rough surface a problem when scanning the structure? | 05:11 |
| ThomasEgi | guess in worst case you could polish inside an synthetic-oil-bath or so | 05:14 |
| ThomasEgi | which would do a good job keeping the temperature down | 05:15 |
| archels | nod | 05:15 |
| archels | can't dig up anything on Google about this | 05:15 |
| archels | might post to said mailing list to find out what's up. | 05:15 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe. usualy polishing is not used for slicing organisms :D | 05:16 |
| ThomasEgi | so i doubt you'd find much online | 05:16 |
| Mariu | ^^ | 05:16 |
| ThomasEgi | how about chemical processing? | 05:18 |
| ThomasEgi | ecthing away the stuff. | 05:18 |
| ThomasEgi | ah nevermind. would probably be a problem with all the frozen water diluating... | 05:18 |
| ThomasEgi | well.. maybe. there are people with more expertise on that. | 05:18 |
| ThomasEgi | but i'd guess it might allow for very fine layers to be etched away,too | 05:19 |
| ThomasEgi | what z-resolution would be required anyway? | 05:20 |
| archels | The thickness of a bilipid membrane is about 10 nm, so let's say 100 nm at the most. | 05:21 |
| archels | One micron and you start losing spines. | 05:22 |
| ThomasEgi | any surface requirements? | 05:23 |
| archels | suitable for EM microscopy | 05:23 |
| ThomasEgi | i am not an expert for those :) | 05:24 |
| archels | me neither | 05:24 |
| ThomasEgi | my guess would be that requiresa dry surface so the electrons wont get caught in some liquid | 05:25 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd sorta prefer an diy,athome process | 05:26 |
| ThomasEgi | but i don't suppose you can get far with optical instruments here | 05:26 |
| ThomasEgi | even under oil | 05:26 |
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| ThomasEgi | or.. can you pull this off on an optical microscope? | 05:27 |
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| ThomasEgi | guess... slicing allows for a lot more samples to be prepared. while polishing would be insanely labour intense, requireing the same sample to be processed over and over again. | 05:35 |
| ThomasEgi | would still be interesting tho. | 05:35 |
| archels | Key to both methods is to automate the process, otherwise it would take a 4 year PhD project to scan a single brain, let alone reconstruct it. ;) | 05:46 |
| ThomasEgi | that is why i am asking for an optical resolution | 05:46 |
| ThomasEgi | if you can optically microscope that thing inside an oil path. you can have a rotating table. where it grinds on one side, and microscopes on the other | 05:46 |
| ThomasEgi | so it constantly rotates and produces one image after the other | 05:46 |
| ThomasEgi | all you have to do is to keep the things turning and the oil filtered well | 05:47 |
| ThomasEgi | there seems to be optical microscopes that scratch into the nanometer range.. but hardly looks like off-the-shelf equipment. | 05:47 |
| ThomasEgi | even for a fruitfly brain and 100nm polish levels. that make 7000 scans+polish cycles | 05:51 |
| ThomasEgi | if you process everything under oil and with some luck, get one image per minute.. that'll only take a week | 05:55 |
| Mariu | =p | 05:56 |
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| kendoka | kanzure | 07:54 |
| kendoka | ill msg you later | 07:55 |
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| kanzure | kendoka: yes i got your pms | 08:30 |
| nmz787 | who was taking citicoline in here | 08:39 |
| nmz787 | aren't they worried about getting Cushings Syndrome? | 08:40 |
| archels | ThomasEgi: interesting idea, the continuously revolving table. | 08:44 |
| nmz787 | http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/science/earth/study-questions-advantages-of-organic-meat-and-produce.html?_r=1 | 08:46 |
| ThomasEgi | mate of me just mentioned that even a very accurate scan won't really reveal the interaction between cells, like which ones are really connected | 08:46 |
| nmz787 | "They concluded that fruits and vegetables labeled organic were, on average, no more nutritious than their conventional counterparts, which tend to be far less expensive" | 08:46 |
| nmz787 | "Conventional fruits and vegetables did have more pesticide residue, but the levels were almost always under the allowed safety limits" | 08:46 |
| nmz787 | soo, I still don't know if the safety levels are really OK levels or not though | 08:46 |
| delinquentme | nmz787: I've seen a list of particular veggies that you're supposed to buy organic | 08:47 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah.. but it is less about the nutritions. for me , that bio-stuff is mostly about taste and often, the actual process of growing and farming is less damaging to nature (or what remained of it) | 08:47 |
| archels | ThomasEgi: Electron microscopy can, insofar as it can show the location of the postsynaptic receptor density. | 08:47 |
| nmz787 | "Organic chicken and pork were less likely to be contaminated by antibiotic-resistant bacteria." | 08:47 |
| delinquentme | but " allowed safety limits " == " safe / good for you " ? | 08:47 |
| delinquentme | IDK. | 08:47 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: I've actually heard some debate over whether organic farming is actually better for the environment, because its in general less efficient | 08:48 |
| nmz787 | but I didn't look into that debate too much | 08:48 |
| nmz787 | it makes sense though, either we use less efficient, maybe non-petrol methods... or we use petrol products | 08:48 |
| ThomasEgi | efficient or not. i'd rather see stuff growing on a flied that is not poisoned, but instead features a rich biodiversity | 08:49 |
| nmz787 | so less efficiency means better taste, but also more hungry people | 08:49 |
| kanzure | huh? an e-scope can show receptor density? | 08:49 |
| kanzure | well i guess that makes sense | 08:49 |
| ThomasEgi | ... hungry people is not about efficciency. we throw away most of the food anyway.. | 08:49 |
| nmz787 | in /this/ country, yes | 08:49 |
| archels | kanzure: the postsynaptic density, in technical terms. Not sure about symmetric (inhibitory) synapses. | 08:49 |
| ThomasEgi | but an e-scope cant operate under oil right? | 08:49 |
| nmz787 | a few places in asia i've been, at least, they dont throw much food away there | 08:50 |
| nmz787 | an e-scope operates in a vacuum | 08:50 |
| nmz787 | so if the oil is OK there, it should be OK | 08:50 |
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| nmz787 | but I'm not sure if you'll see the oil or what's below it | 08:50 |
| archels | kanzure: okay, the latter too. http://synapses.clm.utexas.edu/anatomy/chemical/symh.htm | 08:50 |
| kanzure | archels: oh, density, not actual receptor resolution? | 08:50 |
| kanzure | hrm. alright then. | 08:50 |
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| archels | It can't image the single receptor proteins, no. | 08:51 |
| kanzure | ah. | 08:51 |
| archels | asymmetric for comparison--much easier to detect: http://synapses.clm.utexas.edu/anatomy/chemical/asymh.htm | 08:52 |
| archels | Looks like we'll need to pretty good image processing algorithms for this. :) | 08:52 |
| nmz787 | that synapse looks horrible | 08:53 |
| nmz787 | it definitely doesn't look empty | 08:53 |
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| nmz787 | did you ask marce about this weekend? | 08:55 |
| nmz787 | whoops, wrong IM | 08:55 |
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| nmz787 | "The study also found that organic milk contained more omega-3 fatty acids, which are considered beneficial for the heart." | 09:13 |
| nmz787 | "One finding of the study was that organic produce, over all, contained higher levels of phosphorus than conventional produce." | 09:14 |
| nmz787 | so, uh, I guess we need to add more phosphorous to conventional foods | 09:15 |
| nmz787 | maybe they don't have enough to produce auxiliary tasty molecules! | 09:15 |
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| eudoxia | < ThomasEgi> does freezing destruct the neuronal structure on bigger scale? | 09:27 |
| eudoxia | apparently cooling beyond the vitrification point causes fracturing between tissues with different contractions, ie the vascular tree snaps off from the neurons | 09:28 |
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| jrayhawk | uh, adding phosphorous is what makes things not organic | 09:38 |
| jrayhawk | it's also why there's no more magnesium in the soil | 09:38 |
| jrayhawk | also also almost all milk in this country is pasteurized and stored in transparent bottles, so expect most of that omega-3 to be oxidized | 09:39 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: it says phosphorous was low in non-organic | 09:39 |
| nmz787 | so no worry of making them less-organic | 09:40 |
| jrayhawk | yes, that is the comical irony | 09:40 |
| jrayhawk | "considered beneficial to the heart" is a stupid summary of omega 3 and "organic" is not the same as "grass fed" as i bet that author is trying to imply | 09:42 |
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| jrayhawk | ah, new york times | 09:48 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: why do some adjustable bench DC power supplies have just + and -, but some have 3 terminals with a gtound too | 09:49 |
| jrayhawk | anyway, the lipid profile of "organic" grains is just as omega-3-lacking as the lipid profile for fossil-fuel-grown grains | 09:50 |
| jrayhawk | if some cows have more ALA, it's because they were eating more grass | 09:50 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: yeah I haven't been eating any beef not grassfed since i saw you | 09:50 |
| jrayhawk | fish is really more important | 09:51 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, depends on the protection class of the device.. | 09:51 |
| jrayhawk | humans can't usefully convert ALA to EPA and DHA | 09:51 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: I'm looking at linear supplies | 09:51 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, matter of design of the device, in combination with safety regulations. | 09:51 |
| chris_99 | nmz787, you'd well it means you'd have say 12V and 0V or 12V, 0V and -12V | 09:51 |
| chris_99 | i would have thought | 09:52 |
| ThomasEgi | or.. you mean 3 at the output? | 09:52 |
| nmz787 | here's what i'm seeing http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=mastech+linear+supply | 09:52 |
| chris_99 | what are you powering btw, because i found an ATX powersupply works great for most stuff | 09:52 |
| chris_99 | and just use a LDO voltage reg | 09:53 |
| chris_99 | if i need to vary the output | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | chris_99: i need a bench supply anyway, just to have for convenience | 09:53 |
| chris_99 | ah ok | 09:53 |
| delinquentme | kanzure: nmz787 chris_99 jmil opinions on peter Diamandis ? | 09:53 |
| ThomasEgi | ah.. well that's pretty much allows you to ground to the device you . which might be not the same ground potential as the one in your poweroutlet | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | but i'm going to power this laser diode | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | so a linear supply should be low enough ripple | 09:53 |
| chris_99 | not heard of him delinquentme | 09:53 |
| ThomasEgi | but.. most lab supplies usualy have that connected to the grid gnd | 09:53 |
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| nmz787 | delinquentme: dunno the name | 09:54 |
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| kanzure | i have negative opinions about pete diamandis | 10:14 |
| kanzure | because of some things he did with xprize/singularityu that weren't very ethical i guess | 10:14 |
| delinquentme | such as? | 10:24 |
| delinquentme | examples ( as I just dont know about this ) | 10:25 |
| kanzure | hmm i don't know if there's a public thing that explains it | 10:26 |
| kanzure | go ask jojack | 10:26 |
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| jrayhawk | nmz787: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1721584909067928384 is a documentary exploring the worst case scenario of a fossil-fuel-to-organic-farming transition | 10:34 |
| jrayhawk | even the worst case scenario is not particularly bad | 10:34 |
| jrayhawk | unfortunately the first part of it is irritating malthusian scaremongering | 10:35 |
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| Urchin | afaik, we can't support present population with organic farming | 11:22 |
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| Mokstar | yeah, we're gonna have to have a sort of global kumite | 11:25 |
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| jrayhawk | the last analysis i saw of polyface farms' methods was 1.1 acres per person | 11:30 |
| Urchin | ok, what's the surface that can be used? | 11:34 |
| jrayhawk | he's mostly reliant on grassland | 11:35 |
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| kanzure | "There is some suspicion that the Horde has constructed a secret base near the mainland, so it is imperative that you begin building your defense with haste." | 11:46 |
| kanzure | man, where did they find this guy? | 11:46 |
| jrayhawk | i have not seen an analysis of polyculture farming with buffalo instead of cows, but i suspect there are some gains to be had, there | 11:49 |
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| chris_99 | aliexpress.com is pretty interesting to find components if you guys haven't seen it before | 11:52 |
| nmz787 | its the baby brother of alibaba.com | 11:54 |
| chris_99 | indeed | 11:55 |
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| chris_99 | i've just sent a message to a company on alibaba to try and find some IR image sensors | 11:55 |
| chris_99 | what do you guys use for CAD btw? | 11:57 |
| delinquentme | sawlidwarkz | 12:07 |
| chris_99 | that does look impressive, is it complex to use though? | 12:08 |
| delinquentme | nope | 12:10 |
| delinquentme | hella easy actually | 12:10 |
| delinquentme | learned in like 2 days | 12:10 |
| delinquentme | perhaps not everything ... but enough to become productive | 12:11 |
| chris_99 | sweet, may give that a shot, if i get a 3d printer/cutter | 12:11 |
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| kanzure | http://www.ponoko.com/make-and-sell/show-material/30-petg-clear | 12:19 |
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| kanzure | Juul: hi | 12:31 |
| Juul | kanzure, hi | 12:31 |
| kanzure | did you get my email about openwetware? | 12:32 |
| Juul | probably. i'm working my way through a backlog after getting home from burning man | 12:32 |
| kanzure | how was it? | 12:32 |
| Juul | very interesting, definitely an experience i'm glad to have had | 12:32 |
| Juul | have you heard about this tent.io decentralized social networking protocol? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | no | 12:37 |
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| Juul | ok, replied to your email | 12:39 |
| kanzure | cool thanks | 12:39 |
| kanzure | Juul: no i don't think that's a good way to get people to use OWW ;) but it's still worth investigating i guess. | 12:39 |
| Juul | ok | 12:40 |
| kanzure | i think OWW's problem is that there's no community around it | 12:40 |
| Juul | i agree | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, Juul its an awesome resource .. but why am I not using it? | 12:41 |
| Juul | well, for one thing it looks like it's not being actively used, which is a big turnoff to new users | 12:43 |
| Juul | there is a lot of outdated info on there, even on the front page | 12:43 |
| kanzure | if you check the recent changes, people definitely use it - it's a requirement for igem | 12:44 |
| Juul | yeah, but it looks like it's not being actively used | 12:44 |
| kanzure | true that | 12:44 |
| kanzure | and it isn't | 12:44 |
| Mariu | OWW is Open WetWare ? | 12:47 |
| kanzure | yes | 12:47 |
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| Urchin | open wetware? | 13:48 |
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| delinquentme | Oh speaking of iGem and biobricks | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | the genome compiler now has full biobricks integration | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | I HELLLA wish that dude made the project into a damn API | 13:56 |
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| delinquentme | but he wants to build an interface | 13:56 |
| delinquentme | *shrug* | 13:56 |
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| kanzure | huh? why not just use the actual biobricks api instead | 14:12 |
| delinquentme | Shibboleth | 14:14 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, I think that the algo they use to offer up suggestions as to what metabolic modifications to do is highly valuable | 14:14 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure they didn't create that | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | but they want you to use the UI to do that | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | nah KEGG | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | they've got the metabolic representations | 14:15 |
| kanzure | why the hell would i use adobe air, ever? | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | because some guy has a half decent idea but hasn't grokked the capacity for machine-based-troublehshooting | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | and instead wants humans to painstakingly go in and select out individual permutations for a possible modification to an organism | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | instead of just selecting inputs and outputs and telling the machines to try 1000 different combinations | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | I KNOW! lets slow it down by putting humans in the mix! | 14:17 |
| kanzure | i just don't see why you like him so much | 14:17 |
| kanzure | he makes poor technology choices, he promotes his crappy product, and uses adobe air | 14:17 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, I like the idea | 14:25 |
| delinquentme | of taking a metabolic map .. and saying if we're trying to get from water to potassium ( or some other chemical modification ) | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | excuse my chemistry | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | but add this gene which will make a novel modification which will then be picked up by THIS pathway ... modified and the plop ... novel output | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | shibboleth what now? | 14:41 |
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| kanzure | shibboleth is the name of a uk academic/online paper thing | 15:09 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i fail to see what that has to do with /that/ person.. he's certainly not the first person to have that idea | 15:09 |
| kanzure | and his implementation is sucky | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | no? | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | I thought thats why he got google moneh | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | Like KEGG is certainly established | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | as well as their API ... which is supposed to be brand spanking new | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | so maybe you're right | 15:10 |
| kanzure | he got google money because he can sell better than you can | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | I mean maybe Im missing something ... but the video presentation on genome additions to code for intermediate protein modifications was cool | 15:11 |
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| jrayhawk | uh, shibboleth is a SAML implementation commonly used for federated authentication and authorization | 16:06 |
| * Mokstar uses ADFS 2.0. | 16:08 | |
| jrayhawk | 'openid is a livejournal comment posting thing' | 16:08 |
| jrayhawk | i am just wondering why it's coming up in discussion here; i don't understand the context | 16:09 |
| jrayhawk | 'AD FS can interact with SAML 2.0 compliant federation services as federation partners.' | 16:11 |
| jrayhawk | huh, cool | 16:11 |
| jrayhawk | and kerberos, too | 16:12 |
| jrayhawk | weird to see a microsoft standard that is both sane and interoperable with other sane standards | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, its just something I started working with | 16:16 |
| delinquentme | these guys want system-to-system authentication | 16:16 |
| jrayhawk | oh, cool | 16:16 |
| jrayhawk | I've been meaning to use it for piny. | 16:17 |
| jrayhawk | I've previously played with implementing the web sso profile in ruby and I was impressed with the general purposeness, design, and modularity of the standard | 16:19 |
| jrayhawk | i seriously have to wonder why openid and oauth exist when the saml standard was better in every way | 16:20 |
| kanzure | http://blog.ginkgobioworks.com/2012/01/14/commercial-gene-synthesis/ | 16:20 |
| jrayhawk | a bunch of the free IdPs even do x509 authentication, so you don't need any actual interaction to authenticate | 16:23 |
| jrayhawk | it drives me insane what a ghetto of bad standards the web is driven by | 16:23 |
| strangewarp | Citicoline and alpha-GPC arrived in the mail :3 | 16:35 |
| strangewarp | tomorrow, I'm starting a regimen of noopept, citicoline, and alpha-GPC. We'll see how it goes | 16:35 |
| strangewarp | Just realized I'd forgotten to look for vegetarian capsules, so they've got gelatin.. blurgh. Will take them anyway, since I've already bought them | 16:36 |
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| jmil | delinquentme: dunno peter diamandis | 17:28 |
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| brownies | plain old noopept isn't enough, eh? | 17:51 |
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| strangewarp | brownies: I got the noopept on a whim, honestly, since I've wanted to try it out | 17:57 |
| brownies | well, hurry up, so you can tell us how it is =P | 17:58 |
| kanzure | brownies: he's going for dramatic suspense i guess | 17:59 |
| brownies | is noopept scheduled in the US? | 18:00 |
| brownies | doesn't seem to be | 18:02 |
| brownies | strangewarp: where'd you get it from btw? | 18:02 |
| strangewarp | Brainpower Nutriceuticals | 18:02 |
| strangewarp | Much more cost-effective than any of the expensive-ass noopept on Amazon | 18:03 |
| strangewarp | I'm waiting until tomorrow to take any because I already had a Nawgan today, and if I take a noopept without taking a citicoline, I will have an uneven number of pills of each, and that sort of thing /bothers me/ | 18:03 |
| brownies | ooh, they prepackage it with choline inside the capsule... how nice of them. | 18:05 |
| strangewarp | indeed | 18:05 |
| brownies | 30mg seems high though, no? | 18:05 |
| strangewarp | It's the maximum dose, I think? | 18:05 |
| brownies | yea i would rather have it in 10-15mg doses personally | 18:07 |
| * strangewarp shrugs | 18:07 | |
| brownies | strangewarp: why'd you pick this supplier? are they reputable? | 18:09 |
| strangewarp | brownies: Someone here recommended them - Morkbotolan, I think - and they're decent | 18:09 |
| strangewarp | er, Mokbortolan, rather | 18:10 |
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| brownies | hm, alright. | 18:14 |
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| kendoka | http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a558314.pdf | 18:37 |
| kendoka | http://neurotrek.com/ | 18:37 |
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| kanzure | kendoka: so i see you are interested in tyler's stuff | 19:10 |
| kanzure | kendoka: http://mybraincloud.net http://synsonix.com | 19:11 |
| kanzure | kendoka: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/url.txt | 19:11 |
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| kendoka | Will the netflix movies streamed to my visual cortex be in HD? | 19:20 |
| kanzure | no, only the torrents | 19:23 |
| kendoka | ok then | 19:24 |
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| nmz787 | so i went to a grindhouse wetware biohack-NYC meetup.com thing tonight | 19:26 |
| nmz787 | i got there late tho | 19:26 |
| nmz787 | i didnt talk much | 19:26 |
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| nmz787 | the crowd seemed pretty 'normal', not my kind of ppl | 19:27 |
| yashgaroth | fuckin' normos | 19:27 |
| yashgaroth | ...anyone interesting there? | 19:27 |
| nmz787 | when they were talking about implanting RFID and then that getting hacked... all i could think of was that tagging with DNA already exists, and has for years (RFLP) | 19:28 |
| roksprok | nmz787: did they talk about any projects they were working on? | 19:28 |
| nmz787 | dolphin-inspired bottlenose thing, electric field for magnet finger implants | 19:28 |
| nmz787 | as well as a haptic version of that for non implatees | 19:28 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: right on | 19:29 |
| roksprok | huh...did they talk about resolution? or why that would be perferable to just looking where you were going? | 19:29 |
| nmz787 | i had mailed the group with the invite for the DNA synthesis meeting i talked at... and confronted the group leader, but she said she was innundated with email and didnt see it or something | 19:29 |
| nmz787 | but was interested | 19:29 |
| nmz787 | what should i tell the normos? | 19:30 |
| yashgaroth | "BioHackersNYC takes a broader view of biohacking compared to the original biopunk movement or DIYBio where experimentation with DNA and other aspects of molecular biology was/is a core element." bah! | 19:30 |
| yashgaroth | can't they just call it bodyhacking or something? bio is our word :( | 19:31 |
| yashgaroth | and they got no right using it | 19:31 |
| nmz787 | tonight was called "Practical Approaches to Transhumanism" | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | but I got there at slide 12 of 16 | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | so I missed a lot | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | and it kind of promptly ended at 8 when the room was taken over by dancers | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | (it was held in a dance studio) | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | the haptic bottlenose tihng sounds cool | 19:33 |
| nmz787 | oh they also talked about open-source and wanting to be connected to everything all the time | 19:33 |
| nmz787 | like brain-4G | 19:33 |
| kanzure | wow they really wrote that? it has a "broader view"? that's complete bullshit. why don't they like us? | 19:37 |
| yashgaroth | "biohacking sounds cool so we're gonna do brain training apps, crossfit and paleo diets and call it that" | 19:38 |
| kanzure | that sounds ok to me.. just don't say "And everyone else who's not with us tonight is a loser" | 19:38 |
| kanzure | or "the other stuff that's going on is less biohacking" | 19:39 |
| yashgaroth | ah well it's still better than lepht I guess | 19:41 |
| yashgaroth | so nmz787 are you permanently in nyc now? | 19:41 |
| delinquentme | is this new? http://diybio.org/2012/06/12/gaudilabalgaepicker/ | 19:51 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: no, hopefully getting out to portland in a month or so | 20:02 |
| nmz787 | but I am settling in a bit I guess | 20:02 |
| roksprok | nmz787: why portland? | 20:03 |
| yashgaroth | nyc is appealing, if I were in an industry that existed there I'd move in a heartbeat | 20:03 |
| nmz787 | roksprok: gf is discussing a job offer there | 20:04 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: nyc is OK, but I am learning that I'm really a country boy at heart | 20:04 |
| nmz787 | I learned that I grew up in a rural microcosm in my home city | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | like its really quiet and peaceful there, and there are deer and stuff | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | but its surrounded by urbanism | 20:05 |
| yashgaroth | you could live in central park, but yeah otherwise the nearest forest is way the fuck out there | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | so most cities are too big, and portland has good urban border control | 20:06 |
| kanzure | portland - where young people go to retire | 20:06 |
| yashgaroth | ♪ where the 90s never died ♪ | 20:08 |
| strangewarp | portlandia <3 | 20:08 |
| nmz787 | what is this??? oOo https://angel.co/benchling https://benchling.com/beta/ | 20:09 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: what is angel.co? | 20:11 |
| nmz787 | they have this on there too https://angel.co/genome-compiler | 20:11 |
| kanzure | angel.co is a very popular angel-round-raising site | 20:12 |
| kanzure | yep.. anselm is on there too, and everyone else in SV | 20:12 |
| nmz787 | do they give money | 20:12 |
| kanzure | yes angels give you money | 20:12 |
| nmz787 | i.e. if you're on there they gave u $ | 20:12 |
| kanzure | no | 20:13 |
| kanzure | it's just a social networking site | 20:13 |
| nmz787 | so angel.co is not funding 2 gene softwares | 20:13 |
| kanzure | no. it will show you their investors. | 20:13 |
| kanzure | (if they have any on angel.co) | 20:13 |
| kanzure | it's like the social version of crunchbase.. except more popular | 20:13 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 20:13 |
| nmz787 | ok | 20:13 |
| kanzure | brownies: how would you explain angel.co? | 20:13 |
| nmz787 | dunno what crunchbsae is | 20:14 |
| kanzure | behold: http://www.crunchbase.com/company/admob | 20:14 |
| kanzure | compare to: https://angel.co/admob | 20:14 |
| nmz787 | why is this better than wikipedia? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | because wikipedia isn't going to raise your $500k seed round | 20:17 |
| roksprok | angel.co is limited sign-ups right? like you have to be refered by someone or go though some process to have a page there? | 20:17 |
| kanzure | http://angel.co/kanzure | 20:18 |
| kanzure | oh oops | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | no i mean crunchbase | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | the company info felt like a wikipedia article | 20:19 |
| kanzure | oh weird. https://angel.co/bryan-bishop | 20:20 |
| kanzure | well whatever. that one. | 20:20 |
| kanzure | haha sung | 20:20 |
| nmz787 | Sung? | 20:20 |
| kanzure | sung's a "follower" | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | ttyl | 20:23 |
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| brownies | kanzure: eh? | 20:34 |
| brownies | angel.co is... bringing some parts of the angel investment process online | 20:35 |
| kanzure | oh i guess it might make more sense to explain how it started | 20:38 |
| kanzure | it was originally 'angel list' and they would bring a few startups in front of some angels | 20:38 |
| kanzure | and the angels would then be like "aww yeah bro, this is the shit, here's some money" | 20:39 |
| kanzure | not sure if that still happens | 20:39 |
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| brownies | it supposedly h appens | 21:12 |
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| jmil | kanzure delinquentme: iGEM is a mess. biobricks don't work that great. there's no validation of what gets submitted. 90% of what our team requested from iGEM didn't work at all. we have a VERY capable team too. the design spec for biobricks is an outdated mess now weighing everything down. | 21:52 |
| delinquentme | jmil, thats a bummer | 21:53 |
| delinquentme | also I got a definitive answer on the power / heat output on a stepper | 21:53 |
| jmil | it's amazing to me that published papers and peer review are so successful | 21:53 |
| jmil | compared to iGEM | 21:53 |
| delinquentme | I was incorrect in thinking that coils are running at full power | 21:53 |
| delinquentme | depending on the stepping all the coils are running at reduced power | 21:53 |
| jmil | iGEM had the promise of somethign really great for DIY Bio. but with one arbiter of quality, if that arbiter fails, the whole damn house of cards falls | 21:54 |
| delinquentme | TLDR: power output all the way down to 1/X microstepping is the same | 21:54 |
| delinquentme | as its divided among all coils | 21:54 |
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| delinquentme | also v1 of the shaker doesnt have a timer ... simply on/ off and frequency selection | 21:55 |
| jmil | oh. all i know is that 75 oz-in NEMA 17 motors have plenty of torque to turn these plates and simply don't put out any heat. that's why i chose them. and they can barely be turned by a pololu | 21:55 |
| delinquentme | ... allows for me to control the whole machine off of a single encoder ( which is really really clean ) | 21:55 |
| jmil | delinquentme: i had a scheme where i wanted to use a slider with a 7-seg LED display to set the speed. I was gonna base it on the Danger Shield. | 21:55 |
| jmil | another of Zach Hoeken's amazing designs | 21:56 |
| jmil | delinquentme: are u gonna make it into a product? would be awesome | 21:56 |
| delinquentme | jmil, http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/2128 | 21:56 |
| delinquentme | the "black" edition Hahah .. im such a sucker for marketing | 21:57 |
| delinquentme | and totally right now I'm trying to come up with a good way to mold the concrete ballast ... | 21:57 |
| delinquentme | after that I just need to code up the encoder controls and its ready to cut some acrylic | 21:57 |
| jmil | nice | 21:58 |
| jmil | dont use pololus tho | 21:58 |
| delinquentme | yeah man when I've got the schematics finished up ill shoot you an image | 21:58 |
| delinquentme | no? | 21:58 |
| delinquentme | I've got one now thats worked phenomenally | 21:58 |
| jmil | get the chips on the new rambo board and the firmware that lets you do everything digitally (microstepping AND current setting) | 21:58 |
| jmil | THEN and only then will it be hands free for the user | 21:58 |
| delinquentme | I saw you were using some special board | 21:59 |
| jmil | no tuning a shitty trimpot you can break off, etc etc | 21:59 |
| jmil | johnnyr is a genius | 21:59 |
| jmil | rambo? | 21:59 |
| jmil | awww kthx is not in here? | 21:59 |
| delinquentme | is that this driver you're talking about | 21:59 |
| jmil | no ask "rambo?" in @reprap | 21:59 |
| jmil | #reprap | 21:59 |
| delinquentme | not there | 22:00 |
| delinquentme | you've got the link in the documentation right? | 22:00 |
| delinquentme | I'll take a look at it ... | 22:00 |
| delinquentme | also Id like to be able to mount it on an arduino shield | 22:00 |
| jmil | basically i've built or overseen the build of a couple dozen repraps. the pololus are one of the WEAKEST links. | 22:00 |
| jmil | SOOOO many headaches due to pololus | 22:00 |
| jmil | rambo fixes absoutely every problem with pololu. | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | ( I'm gonna build out the arduino Uno ... and its kind of "favorably displayed" | 22:01 |
| jmil | no potentiometer to fuck with, no jumpers to jimmy back and forth | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | so I'm kinda hoping it would get some exposure | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | now editing the firmware ... | 22:01 |
| jmil | uno would be really nice | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | that requires additional hardware does it not? | 22:01 |
| jmil | http://reprap.org/wiki/Rambo | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | like aren't you talking about a serial programmer to edit stuff? | 22:01 |
| jmil | delinquentme: i mean look at the chips johnnyr is using for the stepper controller. get those | 22:02 |
| jmil | and see in marlin how the deal with microstepping via software | 22:03 |
| jmil | all of this is firmware you can flash onto arduino | 22:03 |
| jmil | no serial programmer | 22:03 |
| jmil | you just need to graft it onto arduino uno | 22:03 |
| jmil | THEN when you have a new motor config you ship a new firmware and done and done the user is up and running | 22:03 |
| delinquentme | heere we go: they may be willing to sell the controller that I am using (from JohnYang.com). | 22:04 |
| delinquentme | that is *not* the rambo driver you're talking about? | 22:04 |
| jmil | no shitty pololu overheating or they stripped the potentiometer (seen WAAY too many times) | 22:04 |
| jmil | johnyang board is good for pololus | 22:04 |
| jmil | but i'm saying don't use pololus | 22:04 |
| delinquentme | I mean if I can set shit like the trim pots in software via the arduino | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | thats awesome | 22:05 |
| jmil | YES. | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | yeah so I should just go find "rambo?" | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | in #reprap | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | and hell have the details? | 22:05 |
| jmil | i just put the link above | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | http://reprap.org/wiki/Rambo | 22:05 |
| jmil | scroll up | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | that sucker?! | 22:05 |
| jmil | yes | 22:05 |
| delinquentme | thats like a motherboard! | 22:05 |
| jmil | yes but don't get confused | 22:05 |
| jmil | it is an arduino chip wired to think it is a MEGA with 5 stepper drivers on it | 22:06 |
| jmil | find the stepper chips on there | 22:06 |
| jmil | t | 22:06 |
| jmil | he | 22:06 |
| jmil | n | 22:06 |
| jmil | then look for the marlin config that has that | 22:06 |
| jmil | i have one in my branch | 22:06 |
| jmil | then graft that onto an arduino uno | 22:06 |
| jmil | then you will be WIN | 22:06 |
| jmil | the chips he found can put out more current and NEVER overheat even at full tilt | 22:07 |
| delinquentme | haha Ok so .. figure out which stepper driver CHIP.. is used here: | 22:07 |
| jmil | amazing | 22:07 |
| jmil | ness | 22:07 |
| jmil | yes | 22:07 |
| delinquentme | and then make some kind of breakout board for it | 22:07 |
| kanzure | brownies: did you see this "convertible notes in a box" thing? https://www.clerky.com/ hah. | 22:07 |
| delinquentme | hook it up w the arduino and im golden | 22:07 |
| jmil | yes | 22:07 |
| jmil | it would be a VERY small shield | 22:07 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 22:08 |
| jmil | just a plate of those chips, a power connector, and prolly some nice display | 22:08 |
| delinquentme | I'll see if anyone makes one already | 22:08 |
| delinquentme | yeah I've got the controls down to be mad clean | 22:09 |
| delinquentme | OK | 22:09 |
| delinquentme | i gotta get back to this VM | 22:09 |
| delinquentme | thanks jmil | 22:09 |
| jmil | delinquentme: here is a version of marlin where you can see how johnnyr did the software based microstepping and current settings: https://github.com/jmil/Marlin/tree/komodo_dev | 22:09 |
| jmil | cool. good night and good luck! lemme know if i can help. i'd love to see your design or even early sketches | 22:10 |
| brownies | kanzure: yeah, some people on HN were saying they used it | 22:10 |
| delinquentme | tanks! | 22:12 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Sep 06 00:00:18 2012 | ||
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