| --- Log opened Wed Oct 03 00:00:11 2012 | ||
| --- Day changed Wed Oct 03 2012 | ||
| nmz787 | i've got a couple scopes, one is fluorescent capable... and a sequencing power supply, and some glassware that might be contaminated with X unknown chemical(s) (saved it from school's trash) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| nmz787 | BioGuy: just west of forest park | 00:00 |
| BioGuy | bkero: Well really the only reason I have things set up at BrainSilo is for the space. There's not really anyone there I can talk bio with. There's also some logistics problems with trying to set something up there | 00:01 |
| bkero | oh? | 00:02 |
| nmz787 | i would want a small cleanroom (HEPA air), something maybe 6'x6' or 8'x8' | 00:02 |
| nmz787 | it would be nice for cultures and optics, microfluidics (dust is a blockage) | 00:02 |
| nmz787 | or at least a room with a door, no carpet, and a clean air hood (could totally be DIY) | 00:03 |
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| BioGuy | I actually don't think it would be that difficult to build your own culture hood and chemical hood - as long as someone knows a little bit about welding. | 00:06 |
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| nmz7872 | I've seen some hoods that were just wood and/or plastic | 00:08 |
| nmz7872 | they polyurethaned the wood inner surfaces several times | 00:08 |
| nmz7872 | well anyway i need to sleep | 00:08 |
| nmz7872 | good talking to you | 00:08 |
| BioGuy | You too, have a good one and I'm looking forward to meeting you when you get down here | 00:09 |
| nmz7872 | I probably won't be around too often the next few weeks with all the moving | 00:09 |
| nmz7872 | (in here) | 00:09 |
| nmz7872 | but I usually am otherwise | 00:09 |
| nmz7872 | ok, ttyl folks | 00:09 |
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| BioGuy | bkero Whats your background? | 00:10 |
| BioGuy | I have to admit I'm really suprised to find all the people here near the Portland area | 00:11 |
| bkero | BioGuy: Open source software, some genomics, OpenEEG, electronics and hardware (particularly electric vehicles) | 00:12 |
| BioGuy | Cool! it would be really interesting getting a bunch of people together with such different backgrounds | 00:14 |
| brownies | electric vehicles eh? | 00:14 |
| BioGuy | bkero: What kind of open source software? | 00:15 |
| bkero | BioGuy: I used to be a sysadmin for the OSU Open Source Lab. I'm currently a sysadmin at Mozilla. | 00:16 |
| bkero | Name some open source projects and I've probably had my hand in it at one point or another. | 00:16 |
| BioGuy | Well what I've really been wondering lately is how open source communities work, with no set leader, where anyone can contribute, and a meritocracy emerges without ever devolving into anarchy. | 00:19 |
| BioGuy | Someone gave me some info earlier which I should really read a bit. | 00:20 |
| BioGuy | Anyways I should hit the hay - you said your schedule is pretty open Thursday? | 00:21 |
| bkero | Read about the history of Anonymous. | 00:21 |
| bkero | Hrm, maybe. | 00:21 |
| BioGuy | get back to me with what your schedule looks like later this week or next week. Talk to you later | 00:22 |
| bkero | okay | 00:26 |
| bkero | I'm free this weekend | 00:26 |
| bkero | sake is next weekend apparently | 00:26 |
| BioGuy | I just threw together a quick google group for getting people together in and around portland: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/pdx-diybioscitechthink | 00:50 |
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| bkero | lol | 03:38 |
| bkero | gg | 03:39 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/AveryLouie/OSH-Designs | 06:15 |
| @kanzure | looks like an atmega32u4 breakout board | 06:15 |
| @kanzure | oh noes the bom is a pdf? | 06:15 |
| @kanzure | kirka: http://www.homolog.us/blogs/2012/09/18/rosalind-project-at-algorithmic-biology-laboratory-st-petersburg/ | 06:17 |
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| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 07:06 | |
| kanzure | where is superkuh? | 07:09 |
| archels | kanzure: What format should a BOM be in, plaintext? | 07:25 |
| kanzure | something computer parsable | 07:27 |
| kanzure | and something human readable | 07:27 |
| archels | csv | 07:27 |
| kanzure | i would take csv over pdf, sure | 07:27 |
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| kanzure | hah | 08:38 |
| kanzure | so avery replies to me "actually, that git repo is now over here ( https://github.com/AveryLouie/BlogDocs ). the other one was from before i knew how to git properly." | 08:38 |
| kanzure | but if you check that repo, it just has a bunch of .tar.gz files.. | 08:38 |
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| BioGuy | Kanzure, you still around? | 11:10 |
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| BioGuy | Kanzure wiggle waggle | 11:16 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: sup? | 11:20 |
| BioGuy | Hey! I accepted your member request for the google groups page I set up last night. If you see any of the portland people around later will you give them a heads up for me? | 11:21 |
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| kanzure | BioGuy: okay. | 11:25 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: i highly recommend just posting to the main diybio group. it has much more visibility. | 11:25 |
| nmz787 | so it seems cclive is broken for me | 11:26 |
| nmz787 | what is the other youtube downloader for shell? | 11:27 |
| kanzure | youtube-dl | 11:27 |
| nmz787 | unable to download video | 11:29 |
| kanzure | did you upgrade youtube-dl? | 11:29 |
| nmz787 | umm | 11:29 |
| nmz787 | i apt-got it | 11:29 |
| nmz787 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nqHOnVTxJE | 11:29 |
| kanzure | the debian package repository has a super old version | 11:29 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl | 11:29 |
| nmz787 | what is an sdx file? | 11:30 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, youtube broke about a five days ago and got fixed three days ago; you'd need to upgrade libquvi-scripts | 11:31 |
| gnusha | diyhpluswiki.git: 2fddd1b add portland group details to diybio/groups.mdwn | 11:31 |
| jrayhawk | sudo apt-get install file; file *.sdx | 11:31 |
| nmz787 | so how do i update libquivo | 11:31 |
| nmz787 | or whatever it is | 11:32 |
| nmz787 | that is what dies | 11:32 |
| nmz787 | i git cloned the git clone git://repo.or.cz/libquvi-scripts.git | 11:32 |
| kanzure | sudo youtube-dl --update | 11:33 |
| kanzure | i have no idea what --update actually does so it might be dangerous | 11:33 |
| nmz787 | ahh the git youtube-dl is working out-of-rep | 11:34 |
| nmz787 | repo | 11:34 |
| kanzure | having a program update itself is very very non-standard and breaky. | 11:34 |
| jrayhawk | add wheezy to /etc/apt/sources.list , pin whatever release you want by adding APT::Default-Release "squeeze"; (or what have you) to /etc/apt/apt.conf, apt-get update; apt-get install -t wheezy libquvi-scripts clive | 11:34 |
| kanzure | clive or cclive? | 11:34 |
| jrayhawk | whichever | 11:34 |
| jrayhawk | they both use quvi these days | 11:34 |
| kanzure | i don't use it, i don't know if one is a typo | 11:34 |
| kanzure | oh okay. | 11:34 |
| BioGuy | nmz787 and jrayhawk I set up a google group last night for getting people together in the Portland area. Here's the link: http://goo.gl/3RNQ1 | 11:41 |
| BioGuy | Couln't help over hear all the linux talk. Im curious what terminal emulator do you guys use and do you use a teminal based irc client? | 11:43 |
| jrayhawk | rxvt-unicode (mostly due to inertia), tmux+irssi on a remote server | 11:43 |
| kanzure | there are some irc client suggestions here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap | 11:44 |
| jrayhawk | we can probably add you to gnusha.org if you want a persistent client | 11:44 |
| jrayhawk | we'd just need a public key out of you | 11:44 |
| jrayhawk | <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"><html><head> <title>PDX DiyBioSciTechThink - Google Groups</title> <link rel="canonical" href="https://groups.google.com/d/forum/pdx-diybioscitechthink"></head> <body> <h2>PDX DiyBioSciTechThink</h2> <ul></ul> <table border="0" cellspacing="0"></table> </body></html> | 11:47 |
| jrayhawk | gosh, what a helpful page, thank you google | 11:47 |
| jrayhawk | is there like an rss feed or something | 11:47 |
| jrayhawk | so i don't have to interact with this retarded google shit | 11:47 |
| kanzure | it's a mailing ilst | 11:47 |
| kanzure | just email pdx-diybioscitechthink+subscribe@googlegroups.com | 11:47 |
| kanzure | or http://groups.google.com/group/pdx-diybioscitechthink/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml | 11:48 |
| kanzure | example: https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml | 11:48 |
| jrayhawk | huzzah, thank you bryan | 11:48 |
| kanzure | google groups really fucked up their url structure. | 11:49 |
| jrayhawk | apparently i am not allowed to sign up over smtp, so RSS it is! | 11:50 |
| kanzure | wut.. no email sign up anymore? | 11:50 |
| jrayhawk | oh, no, i just misread a thing, nevermind | 11:51 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: you probably want rss_v2_0_msgs.xml?num=50 | 11:51 |
| nmz787 | BioGuy: in the beginning i think any announcements should be sent to the main diybio google group, since there could be lurkers signed up there that wouldn't otherwise know of this new group | 11:52 |
| jrayhawk | crosspost everywhere, everytime | 11:53 |
| jrayhawk | MORE CROSSPOSTING | 11:53 |
| kanzure | i am the crossposting master | 11:53 |
| kanzure | you see those recent open hardware threads? that's like ten mailing lists :( | 11:53 |
| BioGuy | Ya thats what Kanzure suggested too, sounds good | 11:54 |
| kanzure | reprap-dev, hackerspaces, oshwa, oshug, openmanufacturing, diybio, probably a few i'm forgetting. | 11:54 |
| kanzure | people need to stop making splinter groups. it's not like it's going to decrease my crossposting frequency. | 11:54 |
| jrayhawk | no, MORE | 11:54 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: congrats, you're listed now.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups | 11:55 |
| BioGuy | Very cool! Need to hurry up and put a welcome message, etc on the groups page now | 11:57 |
| jrayhawk | i think i have access to a wetlab | 11:58 |
| jrayhawk | i haven't looked into the details, though | 11:58 |
| * BioGuy nudges jrayhawk | 12:00 | |
| BioGuy | Access to a wet lab? | 12:00 |
| jrayhawk | i will take that as a request to get more details | 12:01 |
| BioGuy | Yup! I can do an excited dance if you would like too. | 12:04 |
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| BioGuy | kanzure: I really like the diyhpl.us site - Lots of good resources | 12:12 |
| kanzure | well, feel free to edit it | 12:12 |
| kanzure | also, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ has some things like the biology/ DNA/ longevity/ nanotech/ neuro/ microfluidics/ folders. | 12:13 |
| BioGuy | I just registered. I think I have some useful things to add | 12:13 |
| BioGuy | kanzure I noticed you had some nice pdf versions of books - how did you get those? | 12:13 |
| kanzure | i absorbed them in my sleep, woke up and typed them out. | 12:14 |
| BioGuy | Nice! I'm sure this is a long shot but I dont suppose you have your hands on a pdf version of Immunobiology Janeway 8th edition? | 12:16 |
| BioGuy | ...or any other edition for that matter | 12:17 |
| jrayhawk | I don't see it in my 5500 book bio collection | 12:18 |
| jrayhawk | oh wait, i am lying | 12:19 |
| jrayhawk | 5th edition | 12:19 |
| kanzure | i will in about 7 minutes. | 12:20 |
| jrayhawk | do you have a later edition | 12:20 |
| jrayhawk | err, rather, are you getting a later edition | 12:20 |
| kanzure | i'm not really sure. the title says 5 but the cover says 6. | 12:21 |
| BioGuy | I would love to get my hands on a copy of that, even just the 5th/6th edition | 12:23 |
| jrayhawk | eh, i guess both will be fine | 12:23 |
| jrayhawk | THE MORE THE MERRIER | 12:23 |
| kanzure | it's really amusing how most biology books are horribly out of date | 12:24 |
| kanzure | even in school my "new" textbooks (written just months before i got them) were completely oblivious about bioinformatics or arguably the stuff that we know the most about | 12:24 |
| kanzure | or archae gets like a one paragraph section in the back of the book. | 12:25 |
| kanzure | meanwhile, the complicated definition of "CONSUMER" and "PRODUCER" gets 20 pages of bird poop pictures. | 12:25 |
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| BioGuy | Thanks you guys! You all just made me really happy! | 12:28 |
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| kanzure | you are easy to please | 12:29 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Immunobiology%20Interactive%20-%20Janeway.pdf | 12:30 |
| kanzure | looks like 5th to me. | 12:32 |
| BioGuy | Gotta run, talk to you guys later and thanks for the goodies! | 12:35 |
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| BioGuy | Oh...before I go I wanted to see if any of you knew about bioclipse.net | 12:35 |
| kanzure | hah based on eclipse | 12:37 |
| kanzure | well i guess if you're going to do an IDE, might as well use eclipse.. | 12:37 |
| kanzure | looks like it hasn't been updated in a few years | 12:37 |
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| kanzure | "Under the agency’s procedures, the box should not have been opened without knowledge of a NASA scientist who is responsible for guarding Mars against contamination from Earth. But Planetary Protection Officer Catharine Conley wasn’t consulted." | 12:42 |
| kanzure | planetary protection officer? damn where do i get a fancy title like that | 12:43 |
| kanzure | "GUARDIAN OF EARTH" | 12:43 |
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| BioGuy | LOL gotta run talk to you all later | 12:44 |
| brownies | kanzure: takes about $100 to file an LLC and call yourself whatever you damn well please | 12:51 |
| brownies | "yea, i'm the Grand Emperor of the Planetary Guardians Alliance... LLC" | 12:52 |
| Urchin | the local transhumanist (dis)organisation in my country has interesting titles for leadership | 12:54 |
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| kanzure | brownies: yes except her opinion is supposed to matter or influence what goes on mars, presumably | 12:57 |
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| kanzure | is there a good "unidentified things on mars" blog? | 13:06 |
| kanzure | or even better, one for "things that were once unidentified, but are now known"? | 13:09 |
| Urchin | I hope you're not asking about crackpot blogs | 13:11 |
| kanzure | no | 13:11 |
| brownies | kanzure: what was that quote from anyway? what box are you talking about? | 13:11 |
| Urchin | sorry, don't know any | 13:12 |
| kanzure | brownies: something about a drill bit. it was an awful news site, so i refuse to link to it. there might be something from pbs about it. | 13:12 |
| brownies | ...ok | 13:13 |
| brownies | well, whatever the deal is, it's basically impossible that there's any part of anything on Mars where only 1 person was responsible for it | 13:13 |
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| kanzure | superkuh: welcome back | 13:50 |
| superkuh | Hello. | 13:50 |
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| kanzure | "My favourite is Biohacking Sydney but gotta say that the [venomous] kangaroo one is quite brilliant." | 14:56 |
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| kanzure | pic-my-raspberry: hi | 16:28 |
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| skorket | evening all | 17:00 |
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| kanzure | http://stepcode.org/mw/index.php/BRL-CAD_patches | 19:57 |
| BioGuy | Kanzure: whats that link you just posted? | 20:03 |
| kanzure | the military's changes to SCL are being merged into the upstream SCL from mpictor | 20:04 |
| BioGuy | Huh? | 20:07 |
| kanzure | NIST dropped SCL development a long, long time ago | 20:08 |
| kanzure | Army Material Command integrated it into BRL-CAD and had made some improvements | 20:09 |
| kanzure | mpictor took the NIST SCL version and started improving it in the past year-ish | 20:09 |
| kanzure | so now BRL-CAD's version of SCL is being merged in | 20:09 |
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| kanzure | oh wtf it's actually spelled Army Materiel Command | 20:09 |
| yashgaroth | oui | 20:10 |
| kanzure | "The U.S. Army Materiel Command (AMC) is the primary provider of materiel to the United States Army. The Command's mission includes the research & development of weapons systems as well as maintenance and parts distribution." | 20:10 |
| BioGuy | I still dont understand what your talking about. Anyone else? | 20:11 |
| kanzure | http://brlcad.org/ | 20:11 |
| BioGuy | BRL-CAD, SCL, NIST, mpictor - just fell into an ocean of acronyms :P | 20:11 |
| kanzure | it's open source CAD | 20:11 |
| kanzure | NIST is the government arm that measures things and makes up standards | 20:12 |
| BioGuy | oooh! I do know what CAD is | 20:12 |
| BioGuy | National <blanks> Standards <something>? | 20:12 |
| kanzure | SCL is Step Class Library.. it's an implementation of ISO 10303 that most CAD software supports 'cept open source stuff because SCL has historically not been so great | 20:12 |
| kanzure | http://nist.gov/ | 20:13 |
| kanzure | it implements the .step file format | 20:14 |
| BioGuy | BRL-CAD is the open source CAD software? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:16 |
| BioGuy | So NIST developed SCL and AMC took over, now mpictor started working on the original NIST SCL? | 20:18 |
| kanzure | BRLCAD didn't take over.. they just used it and modified it as they went. | 20:19 |
| BioGuy | Now the AMC verision of SCL and mpictor's changes are being merged for BRL-CAD? | 20:20 |
| kanzure | i think one of the nist.gov guys endorsed mpictor's version informally though, so it's basically "official" | 20:20 |
| kanzure | correct. someone is manually reviewing 400 commits and resolving the differences. | 20:20 |
| BioGuy | So thats something I wonder about open source stuff. Lets say theres some kind of function in one mpictor's code and another in the AMC version. They both generally have the same purpose but go about getting from point A to B differently. How and who decides which code stays? | 20:23 |
| kanzure | in this case it's mostly bug fixes and makefile cruft | 20:24 |
| kanzure | plus, the majority of these tools are generated from compiler comiplers | 20:24 |
| kanzure | *compiler comiplers | 20:24 |
| kanzure | hrm.. *compiler compilers | 20:24 |
| kanzure | anyway, there's rarely a situation where that happens. and when it does happen, it's whoever manages the repository, or the cleanest version, or the version that actually works and sucks less. | 20:25 |
| kanzure | why not submit some code to biopython or something and find out? | 20:26 |
| ParahSailin_ | lol didnt know you were op in #lesswrong | 20:27 |
| kanzure | or pick a project here https://github.com/kanzure and go to issues section and pick something to work on | 20:27 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: it's just one more reason for me to hate myself | 20:27 |
| BioGuy | I actually haven't worked with BioPython yet, and am stil teaching myself Python. I would really like to see what its like to work on an open source project though. Thats a good idea with BioPython | 20:28 |
| skorket | what is #lesswrong? | 20:29 |
| kanzure | skorket: pain and suffering. never go there. | 20:29 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: well, here are some "open problems" in biopython https://redmine.open-bio.org/projects/biopython/issues | 20:29 |
| ParahSailin_ | hpmor.com | 20:29 |
| ParahSailin_ | biopython is kinda shitty | 20:30 |
| BioGuy | I actually feel like I need a Python related book that reads less like a technical manual and is focussed around actually making something, or has exercises or something, rather than just descriptions of objects and methods with some code snippets here and there | 20:30 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: compared to what? bioperl? | 20:30 |
| ParahSailin_ | i rewrote a lot of it in cython | 20:30 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: did you contribute it? | 20:30 |
| ParahSailin_ | nah, not yet | 20:30 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: you should do that.. | 20:30 |
| kanzure | unpublished code is worse than unwritten code | 20:31 |
| ParahSailin_ | those guys probably not into arcane micro-optimizations | 20:31 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/biopython/biopython | 20:31 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: well, i say pick a hobby to learn python with. bioinformatics is one option. a lot of people pick web development. i also suggest pokemon rom hacking :p | 20:32 |
| ParahSailin_ | i use haskell now for when i need stuff to run fast | 20:32 |
| kanzure | oh geeze "ntil late September 2009, Biopython source code was kept in CVS running on the OBF servers." | 20:33 |
| kanzure | awful. | 20:33 |
| BioGuy | ParahSailin_ I haven't directly used it yet. But, it seems to have been very useful in this case study: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.1838.pdf | 20:35 |
| ParahSailin_ | python is really useful when i just have to hack up something fast without time to think it through | 20:36 |
| BioGuy | "unpublished code is worse than unwritten code" - I like that! | 20:37 |
| ParahSailin_ | some of my colleagues write embarrassingly shitty python | 20:38 |
| ParahSailin_ | like, not knowing about iterators, map, zip etc | 20:38 |
| kanzure | by colleagues do you mean.. the people that hired you? | 20:39 |
| ParahSailin_ | coworkers | 20:39 |
| kanzure | yikes. | 20:39 |
| brownies | the homeless people outside his office | 20:39 |
| brownies | oh, damn. that's even worse. | 20:39 |
| kanzure | well they should be homeless if they can't map or __iter__ or w/e | 20:39 |
| BioGuy | Do you all use Python 2.7x or 3.x? | 20:40 |
| kanzure | i use 2.6 and 2.7, but i have nothing against 3.2 | 20:40 |
| ParahSailin_ | like this guy types out a reverse complement procedure anew in like every script he makes | 20:40 |
| kanzure | 3.2 even includes virtualenvs. finally. | 20:40 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: are you forcing them to make python eggs out of all this stuff? | 20:40 |
| ParahSailin_ | no | 20:41 |
| kanzure | eh, you should. otherwise it will become unusable in a few months/year. | 20:41 |
| ParahSailin_ | they wouldnt know what python eggs is | 20:41 |
| kanzure | python eggs and modules are the only things that make large code bases maintainable | 20:41 |
| ParahSailin_ | our shit is not maintainable | 20:41 |
| kanzure | i have no idea how your company functions withou-- oh okay | 20:41 |
| ParahSailin_ | i re-do significant amounts whenever our pipeline fucks up or needs new functionality | 20:42 |
| kanzure | let me guess.. no unit tests? | 20:42 |
| BioGuy | I've been learning 2.7x just because thats what all the scripts were written in when I had my internship. I think the most annoying thing was not being able to change a dictionary while iterating through it, but in a nested loop its REALLY slow if you use something like aDict.keys() - so I ended up using aDict.items() | 20:43 |
| ParahSailin_ | i didnt think i was very much good at programming before this job | 20:43 |
| ParahSailin_ | then i see how little it takes to actually get paid to do it | 20:43 |
| kanzure | yeah, suddenly 200k/year sounds justifiable huh | 20:43 |
| ParahSailin_ | im scared of 3.2 | 20:43 |
| kanzure | people who spend 8 weeks learning how to configure rails are getting $80k/year salaries. and that's just for knowhing how to edit some yaml files. | 20:44 |
| kanzure | *knowing | 20:44 |
| kanzure | (ok i'm exaggerating; they probably know enough ruby to not fail catastrophically) | 20:44 |
| ParahSailin_ | you know any erlang or haskell gigs? | 20:45 |
| kanzure | brownies might have an erlang gig for you; i have no idea if he ended up using erlang or not | 20:45 |
| kanzure | brownies: ping? | 20:45 |
| BioGuy | ParahSailin_ with my little stint at the Oregon National Primate Center it was kind of a nightmare. Sadly I was the one who knew the most about Python (I had to teach myself what I could in about 2 weeks) and there were about 34 scripts - many of which defined the same functions over and over, no repository, not on a network drive. | 20:45 |
| ParahSailin_ | im quite happy where i am, but i'd like to have some side consulting money | 20:46 |
| kanzure | eww don't use a network drive :P | 20:46 |
| kanzure | i'm presently fixing an error in a python project, | 20:47 |
| kanzure | "InterfaceError: (InterfaceError) Error binding parameter 17 - probably unsupported type." | 20:47 |
| kanzure | what an unhelpful error message. | 20:47 |
| BioGuy | Just a network drive with no repository would have been better than having copies of code on several different computers and the senseless emailing and usb drive swapping | 20:48 |
| ParahSailin_ | the three servers at work have different copies of all the scripts, different python versions too | 20:48 |
| brownies | kanzure: hi? | 20:48 |
| BioGuy | How long have you lot been programming in Python? | 20:48 |
| kanzure | many years. | 20:50 |
| BioGuy | ...Hey! That open spectrophotometer project would be right up my alley | 20:50 |
| kanzure | what is a national primate center? | 20:50 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: yeah, we have some other projects kicking around.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html | 20:51 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: in particular when nmz787 settles down we'll be kicking the dna synthesis project into higher-gear. | 20:51 |
| BioGuy | There's several national primate research centers across the US. One of them is in Hillsboro and affiliated with Oregon Health Science University. Thats the one I interned at. | 20:52 |
| kanzure | yes but what is it | 20:53 |
| kanzure | do i buy a monkey and ship it there? | 20:53 |
| BioGuy | ...as in DIY synthesis? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | as in a machine to do it, yes. | 20:54 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf | 20:54 |
| BioGuy | LOL, they do basic research. Genetics, neuroscience, epigenetics, developmental biology, etc | 20:55 |
| kanzure | so.. they would rent me a monkey? | 20:55 |
| BioGuy | ...create animal models of disease, ie research with SIV | 20:55 |
| BioGuy | Nah...besides you would have a good chance of contracting herpes B -very bad | 20:56 |
| skorket | kanzure, the price associated with each of those projects is the target price? | 20:56 |
| kanzure | skorket: eh, it's the estimated amount of funding required to get somewhere, assuming that we have free labor ;) | 20:57 |
| kanzure | or just have to pay living expenses or something | 20:57 |
| skorket | kanzure, this is your project list or someone elses? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | i think i typed it up a few years ago | 20:59 |
| kanzure | someone asked me what was bouncing around in my head, so i puked that up. | 20:59 |
| kanzure | a better version could probably be written | 21:01 |
| kanzure | i'd like to do some reasonable estimates for protein production and purification (like taq) | 21:01 |
| BioGuy | You know, just a guess, but by looking at that graph ($/base sequencing, gene synthesis, short oligo) it looks like the corporate world have all been piling into sequencing, while synthesis is probably a relatively uncompetetive space as far as innovation is concerned. | 21:04 |
| kanzure | synthesis is highly competitive | 21:04 |
| kanzure | the academic microfluidic reactors have synthesis down very cheaply, except nobody has got it to work outside academia | 21:04 |
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| kanzure | the synthesis companies are already fighting tooth-and-nail on their margins-- i don't think "synthesis as a service" is a good business to be in | 21:05 |
| BioGuy | If they can do it can be done so cheaply now then is that graph out of date? | 21:05 |
| kanzure | i think if you want to make money from synthesis, then you should build and sell synthesizers | 21:05 |
| kanzure | no, the graph is for what you can order | 21:05 |
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| kanzure | i can't call up george church and be like "yo bitch, gimme a printout of this genome" | 21:06 |
| kanzure | (george is one of the guys with a microfluidic dna synthesizer) | 21:06 |
| BioGuy | Oh no, I didn't mean it was uncompetetive in terms of offering services with already existing technologies - I meant more along the lines of developing new technologies and techniques to bring down cost | 21:06 |
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| BioGuy | So why haven't microfluidic dna synthesizers made it into the private sector? | 21:07 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure, btu i don't think the synthesis companies are exactly "rolling in cash" | 21:07 |
| kanzure | because they just buy dna synthesizers | 21:07 |
| kanzure | mostly refurbished dna synthesizers. idt is different because they buy your dna synthesizers up, but they also have this guy on staff that just builds synthesizers too. | 21:07 |
| kanzure | most of the synthesizers are old crap that flooded the market in the 80s | 21:08 |
| kanzure | or 90s | 21:08 |
| kanzure | and now most of the dna synthesizer manufacturers have been bought, sold, merged, or sued into oblivion | 21:08 |
| BioGuy | So ya, like I said then, it looks like in terms of R&D the private sector is only competing in terms of sequencing innovation - while there doesn't seem to be much private sector R&D in synthesis. Seems to be a pretty uncompetitive space in that regards. | 21:10 |
| BioGuy | In terms of innovation to the next level, not market buying and selling | 21:10 |
| kanzure | there's a few companies that are doing "next generation" dna synthesis, like gen9 or cambrian genomics | 21:11 |
| BioGuy | Either of those associated with Church? | 21:11 |
| kanzure | i think both of them are | 21:12 |
| kanzure | george has his hands in everything | 21:12 |
| kanzure | also check the /topic | 21:12 |
| BioGuy | LOL - $40 million per genome isn't that useful to me, | 21:14 |
| BioGuy | but thanks Craig | 21:14 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ | 21:14 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/synthesis/ | 21:14 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna-synthesis.html | 21:14 |
| BioGuy | Though, if you wanted to synthesize a genome or a gene - why not just use PCR and get the organism? | 21:14 |
| kanzure | because your genome might not exist yet | 21:15 |
| kanzure | and pcr takes forever. you have to go find a fucking specimen and figure out protocols for cultivation and other shit.. | 21:15 |
| kanzure | and fuck ordering plasmids. i just want to print out the dna that i need. | 21:15 |
| BioGuy | PCR doesn't take long...TAQ polymerase isn't incredibly fast but there are faster DNA polymerases out there. But, even with TAQ your really only looking at about 24 hours to amplify up a bacterial genome | 21:17 |
| yashgaroth | we're not talking about copying genomes...if you want to do that, just add some media and wait 20 minutes | 21:18 |
| kanzure | no i don't mean taq is slow. i mean the whole process of finding the specimens, incubation, dna isolation, optimizing your pcr reaction, etc. etc. | 21:18 |
| kanzure | all this just to get a gene? why not just synthesize the gene in the first place? that's what i really wanted to do to begin with. | 21:18 |
| BioGuy | Well if I wanted to amplify the genome of X bacteria. I would just transform it with a selectable marker gene (lets say ampicillin) - grow it up with some generic LB agar + amp, make a PCR master mix with primers, heat cells to lyse, thermocyle, done | 21:20 |
| BioGuy | ack... you type too fast LOL | 21:21 |
| kanzure | yes http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure | 21:22 |
| kanzure | amplifying genomes isn't the goal of dna synthesis. synthesizing new sequences is the goal. | 21:23 |
| BioGuy | I suppose, though I'm not entirely sure how useful it would be (I'm not saying it isnt though) to sythesize new genes when we don't even understand how proteins fold for specific functions yet. Until we can design our own proteins how useful is custom gene synthesis? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | because we can just look up stuff on the ncbi databases for known genes | 21:25 |
| kanzure | additionally, you can do automation to search through a space of possible sequences once you know the general area that you want | 21:25 |
| kanzure | then you just pump out your little organisms and test them in whatever way you were going to. | 21:26 |
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| BioGuy | Ok I see where your going with this. Your thinking along the lines of creating genomes from genes stemming from maybe 100 different organisms | 21:29 |
| kanzure | eh maybe... i think one gene at a time is a good goal :) | 21:29 |
| kanzure | 100s at a time becomes very hard to debug/test | 21:29 |
| BioGuy | If your just interested in one gene at a time then I still don't quite get why you wouldn't want to just use PCR. Its cheap, easy to do, and OK it takes a bit of time...but maybe about a week. | 21:31 |
| BioGuy | from start to finish | 21:31 |
| BioGuy | culturing and all that jazz | 21:31 |
| kanzure | what do you consider "start" to be? collecting soil samples or w/e? | 21:32 |
| BioGuy | Once you know the organism your gene is in I would just order it from atcc.org | 21:34 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure synthesis takes less time than delivery | 21:35 |
| kanzure | also: do they ship to non-institutions? | 21:35 |
| kanzure | or do i have to setup fake businesses | 21:35 |
| BioGuy | Im sure you would...but you cant order basic life science/chemical reagents anyways as an individual. I've tried. | 21:36 |
| kanzure | yeah, which is why we should be doing taq production | 21:36 |
| BioGuy | Even then you still need reagents for purification | 21:36 |
| kanzure | yes, i know | 21:36 |
| kanzure | i can't just wave my dick and make all the problems go away | 21:36 |
| BioGuy | No, you hit on a good point though --- I think thats the next biggest hurdle that needs to be overcome is to make reagents accessible to the DIY community I think thats the biggest bottleneck. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | i think the biggest bottleneck is technical expertise. we keep getting idiots coming in here telling us that they don't want to read books, but they want to make their cats glow or shit. i hate glowcats. | 21:39 |
| BioGuy | Some group like us set up a business or non-profit and start selling to the DIY community | 21:39 |
| yashgaroth | ebay is pretty well stocked, I've found | 21:39 |
| kanzure | stocked with technical expertise? | 21:39 |
| yashgaroth | no but we have that already | 21:39 |
| yashgaroth | I meant chemicals | 21:39 |
| foucist | kanzure: sudo make me a glowcat | 21:40 |
| * BioGuy nods to yashgaroth | 21:40 | |
| kanzure | foucist: die in a fire | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | and purification of taq is pretty easy if it's tagged, that's like 5 reagents you need and they're not particularly exotic | 21:40 |
| BioGuy | But ok...try looking for something specific though on ebay - ACS reagent grade lithium borate | 21:40 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: you're not going to get the whole sigma catalog | 21:41 |
| BioGuy | ...or a specific monoclonal (or even polyclonal) antibody | 21:41 |
| kanzure | i don't think that's a reasonable expectation. | 21:41 |
| kanzure | there's no "altsigma" or "phantom sigma". | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | I tend to prefer techniques that don't need something like lithium borate, but yes that's true | 21:41 |
| kanzure | as for antibodies- yeah we just need someone to sit around producing different antibodies, for sure.. | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | and actual bioreagents like mabs are scarce, don't get me started on fucking chromatography resins | 21:42 |
| kanzure | i'm not completely sure, but it looks like all the antibody startups are filthy rich. i'm not completely sure though. | 21:42 |
| yashgaroth | luckily for mabs you can grow them in e.coli if you don't care about effector activity | 21:42 |
| BioGuy | There's plenty of distributors of chemical reagents. It took me several months but I finally found a local chemical supply company who would sell to me as an individual. | 21:42 |
| yashgaroth | reagent protein production is a cushy business | 21:42 |
| kanzure | "$2200/antibody" | 21:43 |
| kanzure | "you mean per order?" | 21:43 |
| kanzure | "no i mean per antibody molecule" | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | I was happy to find that triton x-114 is apparently on ebay, and then a day later find out that I can just use ethanol | 21:44 |
| foucist | "something's fucked with your manufacturing process in that case! you're doing it all wrong stupido!" | 21:44 |
| yashgaroth | what's fucked is that the pile of money is too big to climb out of | 21:44 |
| BioGuy | Anyways I just think what the DIY community needs is for some people to step up, create a company or non-profit, purchase some torte liability insurance, open up wholesale accounts with manufacturers and suppliers, then start distributing to individuals. | 21:45 |
| kanzure | "we'll pay you $200M to not do it better" "what?" | 21:45 |
| foucist | meh, why not just use silk road or something | 21:45 |
| kanzure | so the problem with that is you would need to get an additional % on top of each order | 21:46 |
| foucist | anonymous transactions etc | 21:46 |
| kanzure | and hobbyists aren't going to be paying $500 for a few ml of taq | 21:46 |
| kanzure | foucist: because silk road doesn't have anything we want. | 21:46 |
| foucist | kanzure: i mean sell on it | 21:46 |
| kanzure | why | 21:46 |
| yashgaroth | "hey what's all this cocaine doing in my tris-hcl? silk roooooooad" | 21:46 |
| foucist | silk road has noots | 21:46 |
| BioGuy | Why does it need to be anonymous? | 21:47 |
| kanzure | foucist: i think you're just jumping on bandwagons | 21:47 |
| kanzure | or just saying things to say things. | 21:47 |
| foucist | some combo of that i suppose.. i was suggesting something lower overhead than torte liability insurance but nevermind | 21:47 |
| foucist | the world is not ready for it! | 21:47 |
| kanzure | not ready for what? | 21:47 |
| foucist | you | 21:47 |
| foucist | not ready for your swinging cock | 21:48 |
| foucist | laters heh | 21:48 |
| * kanzure zips up | 21:48 | |
| BioGuy | I dont see why selling chemical and life science reagents has to be done in any sneaky sort of way. Some things are a bit stringent on federal regulations, like iodine, but other than that many things you should be able to sell fine to people | 21:48 |
| kanzure | i think a sneaky reagent bitcoin thing would be cool, but i don't think it's necessary | 21:48 |
| BioGuy | Oh I see instead of tort liability insurance. I would rather just purchase the insurance and sell everything out in the open | 21:49 |
| yashgaroth | the other sad part of diybio is that you have to adapt your methods to the available reagents, rather than vice versa | 21:49 |
| yashgaroth | also lithium borate has the shortest wikipedia article I've ever seen | 21:50 |
| BioGuy | Once you take it into the world of Tor and bitcoins DIYbio could easily get a bad rap... just do it by the book. | 21:50 |
| kanzure | diybio's reputation means nothing to me | 21:50 |
| BioGuy | Yet lithium boric acid as a running buffer is the best running buffer we have yet. Cheaper, Faster, less heat, longer run times, higher voltages than TAE/TBE | 21:52 |
| BioGuy | It should if you want it to thrive | 21:52 |
| BioGuy | If you dont want people to be afraid of it | 21:52 |
| kanzure | honestly i don't care if they are afraid of it. it is still useful to me. | 21:53 |
| BioGuy | Yes, but if people become afraid of it it will become less accessible than it already is and wont be useful to you anymore | 21:53 |
| kanzure | huh? | 21:56 |
| BioGuy | Imagine if in the hay day of the IT revolution people and the government became afraid people would create devices that would destabalize technological infrastructure. What if the government passed laws limiting the sales and purchasing of transistors to academic and corporate institutions | 21:56 |
| kanzure | then i would build transistors | 21:56 |
| kanzure | azonenberg (sometimes comes in here) does diy cmos fabrication | 21:57 |
| kanzure | i don't think you understand how insanely dedicated we are | 21:57 |
| yashgaroth | so uh I'm not a chemist but can't just just buy lithium hydroxide and boric acid and mix them in solution? | 21:57 |
| yashgaroth | err, you just* | 21:57 |
| yashgaroth | not even sigma sells straight lithium borate | 21:58 |
| BioGuy | Yes, the irony is that lithium hydroxide is easier to come by, but MUCH MUCH more hazardous than lithium borate. I wouldn't use lithium hydroxide without a fume hood personally | 21:58 |
| BioGuy | Its probably under lithium decaborate | 21:59 |
| yashgaroth | so build a fume hood | 21:59 |
| BioGuy | sorry tetra borate | 22:00 |
| yashgaroth | oh well that's on ebay | 22:00 |
| BioGuy | Sure...but I cant do everything. The point is as an adult consenting individual if I want to do an experiment involving lithium borate I should be able to do that and buy the reagents I need without having to put a bunch of time money and effort into building a DIY fume hood before I even get to touch my experiment | 22:01 |
| yashgaroth | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-tetraborate-anhydrous-Reagent-99-500g-/230827948815?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35be6afb0f ? | 22:02 |
| BioGuy | ok... but what grades? Also which is more expensive the chemicals on ebay or from Carolina/Spectrum Chemical | 22:02 |
| yashgaroth | 99% is plenty | 22:03 |
| yashgaroth | carolina's site is down apparently | 22:03 |
| BioGuy | LOL I was just going to look there too Ha! | 22:05 |
| BioGuy | Even buying on ebay though I'm forced to buy 500g for $91.99 - At the local chemical shop I was able to find here I could buy it at 25g for $10 | 22:07 |
| kanzure | i don't understand. you have a local chemical shop? | 22:08 |
| yashgaroth | was just about to ask that | 22:08 |
| kanzure | or do you mean "the sigma supply room at the university"? | 22:08 |
| BioGuy | My point is, is there needs to be a chemical/life science reagents distributor that caters to individuals, it will make DIYBio more accessible, bring more people into it, and generate new innovation | 22:08 |
| kanzure | nobody is arguing against that. if you have a way to make te pricing work, let's hear it. | 22:09 |
| kanzure | the problem is that if you're just redistributing pricey shit, you need to mark up the prices even more outside the range of hobbyists. | 22:09 |
| yashgaroth | and if you want a decent stock of many chemicals, that's a lot of capital that needs a fair number of customers | 22:09 |
| BioGuy | Ya found one a few miles north of me. Their site is amersci.com - like I said though, took me several months to find them | 22:09 |
| BioGuy | Anything you would buy on ebay or that you can get your hands on as is is already marked up. The point would be just to make it accessible, just make it so an individual can actually buy it... and in small quantities that they might want for a project. | 22:11 |
| BioGuy | Right now 99% of all suppliers cater to corporate and academic institutions, but hardly any to the individual | 22:12 |
| kanzure | most of the diybio people that i see tend to be broke. i'm not sure how you expect them to be able to afford 2x markups. | 22:13 |
| kanzure | i suppose small amounts that are marked up might be doable. | 22:13 |
| BioGuy | You don't think theres a fair amount of customers in the DIYbio community right now that dont have access to reagents? | 22:13 |
| kanzure | i think most of the diybio people tend to be poor and with no money | 22:13 |
| BioGuy | Ok and where do they get their reagents from? | 22:13 |
| kanzure | "LOL what can i do with $100" fuck | 22:13 |
| kanzure | why are you asking me these questions | 22:14 |
| kanzure | i already told you i agree with you | 22:14 |
| kanzure | what more do you want from me right now | 22:14 |
| BioGuy | I can tell you what I did with $100 - I bought some Tris, EDTA, glacial acetic acid, boric acid, and lithium tetraborate all because a local chemical supplier was willing to sell to me in smaller quantities | 22:15 |
| kanzure | this is like talking to a wall. | 22:15 |
| BioGuy | Maybe I just dont get what your saying. You say most DIYbio people are broke - so where do they get their reagents from right now? | 22:16 |
| kanzure | why do you think they have reagents? | 22:17 |
| BioGuy | You cant do much bio without reagents. So if they're not doing anything right now they wouldn't be buying reagents anyways | 22:18 |
| kanzure | yes, the current diybio projects are limited. that's not surprising. | 22:18 |
| kanzure | i already knew that. | 22:18 |
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| kanzure | why do you think they have reagents? | 22:19 |
| BioGuy | Because anyone in DIYbio or interested in DIYbio needs reagents. | 22:20 |
| BioGuy | You cant exactly do any sort of bio without reagents | 22:20 |
| kanzure | anyway, this is just an unproductive line of tought | 22:20 |
| kanzure | *thought | 22:20 |
| kanzure | if you hvae a business model with numbers that you cna show me, i would be highly interested in seeing it | 22:20 |
| kanzure | *have | 22:20 |
| kanzure | i could probably throw yashgaroth at it to work on. i'm sure he'd love that. | 22:20 |
| yashgaroth | fff | 22:21 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: i don't know if you're talking to me anymore. it really sounds like you're not reading my messages. | 22:21 |
| BioGuy | No I am, I just dont understand how you don't see how this is a major bottleneck that prevents the DIYbio community from growing | 22:22 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: pfft, you know you'd love it. it would probably be better pay anyway. | 22:23 |
| kanzure | actually i don't know what you're doing these days | 22:23 |
| kanzure | same old same old? | 22:23 |
| BioGuy | The business model is simple instead of selling bulk quantities to corporate and academic customers you sell small quantities to individuals. | 22:23 |
| yashgaroth | undeniably better pay, but at least I have access to the one thing diybio can't buy...chromatography resin | 22:23 |
| kanzure | when did i say it wasn't a bottleneck? wtf man | 22:23 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: that's not a business model, that's a pitch. i mean an actual business model with models. | 22:23 |
| yashgaroth | can't you just do group buys or something? then there's much less up-front cost | 22:24 |
| kanzure | yeah that's the classic "groupon for drugs" model. | 22:24 |
| kanzure | er i mean 'for chemicals' | 22:24 |
| skorket | running resolution tests now | 22:25 |
| * BioGuy nods to Yashgaroth | 22:25 | |
| BioGuy | Not a bad idea. | 22:25 |
| kanzure | so there's 2500 people registered on the diybio mailing list | 22:25 |
| kanzure | there's about 100 people that i miiight say are capable of running reactinos | 22:25 |
| kanzure | *reactions | 22:25 |
| kanzure | and then let's say you can capture 10% of that market. 10 people isn't enough to support a supply company. | 22:25 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: isn't this what simon does anyway? | 22:28 |
| BioGuy | And how many people do you think aren't on the DIYBio mailing list that are interested in it | 22:28 |
| kanzure | "interested" doesn't mean "is going to run projects" | 22:29 |
| BioGuy | Do you really think in the entire world there are only 2500 people that would be interested in DIYBio? | 22:29 |
| yashgaroth | I don't know what simon does, ask nathan | 22:29 |
| yashgaroth | ah, but how many are interested in running high-resolution gels with lithium tetraborate? | 22:30 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: ok, so then how are you going to find these people? and how many do you estimate? ads? or what | 22:30 |
| BioGuy | How do you know...lets take a bright highschool kid as an example. He has two choices. 1. He can spend $1000 working on electronics gadgets, maybe computers. 2. He becomes interested in Chemistry and biology - wants to work on that but quickly realizes he cant. He's blocked so he goes with option 1 | 22:31 |
| kanzure | ok, but right now you don't have any data | 22:31 |
| kanzure | why i am i going to give you $50k to do this? | 22:31 |
| kanzure | with such little customer dev work? | 22:32 |
| BioGuy | I'm not even thinking about approaching investors. Im saying theres a lot of work happening in the DIYbio world to bring down cost and increase accessability of equipment. That's only 1/3rd of the equation though. Another 3rd is reagents - and here cost isn't the primary issue. | 22:34 |
| kanzure | yesterday i was serious when i said we have money to throw behind projects | 22:34 |
| kanzure | i just don't see enough numbers here to go for it though | 22:34 |
| kanzure | so far it sounds like a business with very few customers who are all broke (students, etc.) | 22:34 |
| kanzure | although, for my own purposes, protein and antibody production is economical compared to me just buying it for insanely high markups | 22:36 |
| BioGuy | There are plenty of people who arent broke and would be involved in DIYBio if they could. Anyways I'm thinking something like this is something more that needs to emerge from people in mutual agreement that the community needs this rather than seek outside funding - maybe with the exception of kick starter | 22:37 |
| kanzure | have you ever done a project on kickstarter, or are you talking out of your ass? | 22:37 |
| BioGuy | Ok...so whats a protein you would want? | 22:38 |
| BioGuy | No I haven't. Have you ever done anything for the first time? | 22:38 |
| kanzure | i've been perpendicullarly involved in some kickstarter projects | 22:39 |
| BioGuy | Have you ever got a group of people together with mutual interest and tried to raise money for a common cause? | 22:39 |
| BioGuy | Right my point is there is a first time for everything | 22:39 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of issues with kickstarter projects. there's nothing "communal" about it. it's people running a kickstarter project. | 22:39 |
| kanzure | and then there's the 5% that goes to amazon and the other percent to kickstarter; plus the "rewards" that suck up a huge chunk of your life to ship and deliver. | 22:39 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: there are many things that i want. i would like a follistatin derivative or a myostatin inhibitor to play with. | 22:40 |
| kanzure | i don't believe in volunteer fundraising. i don't think that's a sustainable source of income. | 22:41 |
| BioGuy | Then you pursue what you want, I'll pursue what I think the community needs | 22:41 |
| BioGuy | No, its seed capital | 22:41 |
| kanzure | you said you wanted a business | 22:41 |
| kanzure | kickstarter isn't a seed fund | 22:41 |
| BioGuy | Have you ever looked at the projects on kickstarter? | 22:41 |
| BioGuy | Plenty of people use it for seed capital | 22:42 |
| kanzure | seed capital is a different financial instrument. | 22:42 |
| BioGuy | What? | 22:43 |
| kanzure | seed money is given in exchange for equity in a company | 22:43 |
| BioGuy | No seed capital is any money you use to start a project, non-profit, company, etc. It doesnt really matter. My point is I think the main bottleneck hindering the DIYbio community right now is access to reagents. You don't need to agree with me and thats fine. | 22:45 |
| brownies | it's before the tree money | 22:45 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: nobody said i disagree with you. wtf. | 22:46 |
| kanzure | about reagents. | 22:46 |
| BioGuy | You said it doesn't matter if reagents are accessible or not because people interested in diybio dont have money. | 22:47 |
| kanzure | read more of my messages | 22:47 |
| BioGuy | I missed your line agreeing it would be nice if people could purchase smaller quantities. | 22:56 |
| kanzure | okay. | 22:56 |
| BioGuy | ....I couldn't figure out why we were arguing | 22:56 |
| yashgaroth | IRC has that effect on people sometimes, arguments just break out for no particular reason | 22:58 |
| BioGuy | ROFL | 22:59 |
| kanzure | well, you can blame my typing | 22:59 |
| BioGuy | Either your too fast or I'm too slow...I don't know which | 22:59 |
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| BioGuy | I don't think I could imagine keeping up with things back in the hay day of IRC when you probably had 10-20 different people talking in a channel at once | 23:01 |
| * BioGuy nudges kanzure, "Hey man....I love you" | 23:06 | |
| -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] | 23:06 | |
| kanzure | okay. | 23:09 |
| BioGuy | Hey I was looking at BRL-CAD. Out of curiosity whats your interest in it? Is there something that sets it apart from other open source CAD software? | 23:14 |
| kanzure | open source CAD software doesn't work or isn't that great | 23:18 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 23:18 | |
| strangewarp | BioGuy: There are tons of channels like that, possibly even more than there used to be, but they're all about programming languages, video games, or Homestuck | 23:20 |
| BioGuy | Whats that? | 23:21 |
| BioGuy | Oh! Busy channels? | 23:21 |
| strangewarp | Yep | 23:21 |
| BioGuy | I wonder why there aren't very many science centric channels, and the ones that exist theres not much activity. Yet, I remember about 10 years ago using IRC and it wasn't difficult at all to find someone to talk to about any given subject | 23:24 |
| * strangewarp shrugs | 23:24 | |
| kanzure | wait, i should clarify. most open source CAD sucks. brlcad sucks slightly less than everything else. | 23:24 |
| strangewarp | Even channels that are mostly idling can be productive; you just have people reading and responding to the backlog.. | 23:24 |
| * Urchin wasn't on irc back then | 23:24 | |
| kanzure | opencascade is the only open source cad package that does nurbs or parametric modeling. openscad doesn't count because it doesn't actually do solid modeling. | 23:25 |
| Urchin | there's a decent number of science channels, particularly here | 23:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cadfaq | 23:25 |
| kanzure | regarding irc, hplusroadmap is still the largest, oldest and best channel for biohacking and transhumanist projects. | 23:25 |
| Urchin | I know some channels where discussions might go on for days with backlog responses, as well as continuations of previus discussions | 23:26 |
| BioGuy | Kanzure are you using it for any projects? | 23:26 |
| kanzure | BioGuy: yes http://diyhpl.us/cgit | 23:26 |
| * kanzure sleeps for real | 23:26 | |
| strangewarp | BioGuy: You might also be interested in this if you haven't perused it yet: http://gnusha.org/logs | 23:27 |
| Urchin | though it helps if your irc client runs all the tiem | 23:28 |
| Urchin | *time | 23:28 |
| * strangewarp nods at Urchin | 23:28 | |
| strangewarp | More channels need logging, honestly :p | 23:28 |
| BioGuy | LOL the first question in that link is something I was about to ask. I was going to say, "So is solid modeling just like 3d modeling... whats the difference between that and Blender" :-D | 23:28 |
| Urchin | btw, my log of this channel is at http://transhumanizam.fizika.org/hplusroadmap.log | 23:29 |
| Urchin | all single file of everything I have of this channel | 23:29 |
| Urchin | 9.6MB | 23:30 |
| Urchin | I have all channels logged | 23:30 |
| Urchin | at least the ones I'm on | 23:31 |
| Urchin | I'm running this on a shell server of a student organization on my old uni | 23:31 |
| skorket | http://imgur.com/46dQ1 | 23:32 |
| * BioGuy just looked at gnusha.org/logs | 23:35 | |
| BioGuy | ^^^Holy Crap! | 23:35 |
| BioGuy | Im not sure if I should think thats cool or creepy, LOL - Though I can see how it would be useful to use grep with and you could essentially use IRC channels like a forum | 23:37 |
| strangewarp | indeed | 23:39 |
| BioGuy | Urchin...how big is that log? | 23:40 |
| BioGuy | I think my netbook is about to crash | 23:40 |
| BioGuy | ABORT!! | 23:40 |
| strangewarp | woo, shitty netbook twinsies | 23:41 |
| BioGuy | Maybe that would be a good first python program to right. I wonder how difficult it would be to run a server and write a python program that logs various channels | 23:42 |
| strangewarp | Many networks have rules about that sort of thing - not sure what Freenode's policy is, but it's probably a sophisticated one - so make sure you look into that before deploying it | 23:43 |
| BioGuy | How did you all log this channel? | 23:47 |
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| strangewarp | BioGuy: kanzure runs the gnusha.org logs, I think | 23:50 |
| BioGuy | He seems to be a pretty busy guy | 23:50 |
| BioGuy | Either that or has been at this quite a long time | 23:50 |
| strangewarp | He's ultra-productive, basically | 23:51 |
| BioGuy | I really like that SKDB idea | 23:52 |
| BioGuy | Is there a sort of SKDB repository setup yet? | 23:53 |
| --- Log closed Thu Oct 04 00:00:45 2012 | ||
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